Prince Andrew’s biographer: Disgraced Duke of York should face trial

0:02The Telegraph

0:09The grand old Duke of York can no longer use his titles after yet another string of lurid headlines. Now Prince Andrew is the subject of a police investigation over claims he's smeared his accuser, Virginia Giffray. We speak to his biographer, Andrew Lowney, who feels vindicated by these latest revelations. I think this is probably the most serious crisis for the monarchy since the abdication, and I wouldn't be surprised if Andrew was actually put on trial. Welcome to The Daily Tea with me, Camilla Tominy. And me, Tim Stanley.

0:51Camilla, suddenly Andrew is no longer a duke. He is now just a humble prince. Just a humble prince. Is there any difference between being a duke and a prince? I think people will be scratching their heads wondering. And I think prince sounds better. But can you explain to me, because his relationship with Epstein, with Jeffrey Epstein, the convicted paedophile, became public knowledge in the early 2010s. Yes. He had his controversial interview with Emily Maitlis in 2019. Yes. He had already stepped back from his royal duties in, I think, 2022. True. In which case, why suddenly does his title have to go?

1:25Because he's been caught in a lie. He has been revealed in emails to have lied when he told Emily Maitlis in that car crash, I don't sweat, and I was at the Pizza Express in Woking interview, that he cut off all contact with Epstein after he was photographed with him walking through Central Park after Epstein had been released from prison. There was a massive question of his lack of judgement in even meeting with the guy in New York afterwards. But then he said, I did that because I was doing the honourable thing by a friend. It's now emerged in emails. It's a little bit like the Peter Mandelson situation, actually.

2:01More information that has come to light, which have shown both Andrew and indeed Sarah Ferguson to have lied when they said they cut off contact. In fact, they remained in contact, were sending very favourable messages. We now learn it's running on the Telegraph website now that Sarah Ferguson, Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie, their daughters were the first to see Epstein on release from prison. When there was a policeman sitting outside his door. Yes. So on and on it goes. And the reason we're speaking about this again is because we now have the posthumous publication of Virginia Giffray. She used to be known as Virginia Roberts, but Virginia Giffray's memoirs.

2:39She died by suicide in April. There was a gagging order on the publication of that book because it was going to come out in 2022 during the Platinum Jubilee. and you'll remember that suddenly it was announced that Virginia Giuffre had got this$12 million payoff. We'll get into that. Andrew Lowney's in the studio with us. Welcome back, Andrew Lowney, who is the official... Well, I say that. You're the... It's not official. Official never. No, you're an officiado in all things House of York related, although I think we can both agree or all agree that this wasn't an authorised biography. And we're going to get into the detail in a minute.

3:17Virginia Giuffre's book is out tomorrow. Yes, that was going to pile more pressure on. This is a damage limitation exercised by the king, with, I think, the help of the Prince of Wales. Right. The king is about to meet the Pope. You'll know a great deal about this historic meeting. They're going to pray together. The first time the Pope and a post-Reformation king are going to pray together. Which is really quite historically significant, and it's all being overshadowed and drowned out by this sorry saga that, as you say, has dragged on for years and years and years and wasn't nipped in the bud, largely Andrew Lowney, because, as you have detailed in your book, the character of Prince Andrew, the lack of self-reflection, the lack of wanting to take one for the team, has meant that he has now sort of mired his nearest and dearest in this controversy.

4:07He did that in Newsnight when he said he wasn't with Virginia Giffray, but he was at Pizza Express in Woking for Princess Beatrice's 13th birthday. You've dragged your daughter into this. The payout means he's dragged his late mother into this. We've now got the king involved. It just looks terrible. Yes, I mean, this matter should have been dealt with a long time ago. And if he was the honourable man who put his country in the monarchy first, it would have been dealt. He would have left Royal Lodge. I don't feel the palace has actually dealt with it very well in terms of damage and imitation.

4:37It's too little, too late. I think public opinion is running way ahead of actually what's happened. Nothing much, to be honest, has changed. As you say, he's no longer a duke or can't use that title, though actually he has been using the title HRH when he's not meant to anyway, as has Sarah Ferguson. And just to be clear, has he definitely lost those titles, as in they've been stripped from him? No. Or is he just not using them? They've just been put into abeyance, and so they could be used. And they could very easily be taken away by a parliamentary act, which would, I think, 67 % of the population want that to happen.

5:09It wouldn't take very long. I think all parties would agree. So it's not a big deal. Can you do that the same with the title Prince as well? Yes, yes. You could use letters patent. I mean, there are all sorts of ways to get rid of these things. You know, people have to hand back their garter when they die and it's the same sort of thing. It would just mean, in effect, of handing back the garter. That's the order of the garter that was bestowed on him by his late mother, just to make that clear. And which he always signs off KG on his emails, as one does. So, I mean, there are lots of things they could have done.

5:36I think the terrible thing is that this was an opportunity to seize the initiative and actually now they're back on the back foot. There are going to be more damaging revelations. There are going to be more of these leaked emails. There's another victim's memoir coming out next month. And, you know, who knows what might be appearing from Congress or indeed from other victims coming forward. So this attempt to get ahead of the story, I'm afraid, has failed. No one really buys it. It's all smoke and mirrors. I think what people want is him for no longer to be a prince. They want him out of Royal Lodge.

6:07And if you won't go voluntarily there, I think there are ways of getting him out beyond putting mice in the building. Well, hang on a minute, though. The title being in abeyance is a protection of sorts for princesses Beatrice and Eugenie. It's quite separate. Well, that's what the palace is saying. The palace is sort of brief. Because if you get rid of the dukedom in its entirety, then it compromises their HRH status as well. Oh, heaven forbid. I know. OK, fair enough. But then the argument is, what have these two girls done to deserve this? Well, I've just had lunch. What have they done to deserve the titles in the first place?

6:40I'm sorry. I've just had lunch. They're blood-borne. I'm not going to turn to a Republican here, but a lot of people will be wondering. Just on that point, that's an interesting point to make, and you could look at Princess Anne's example. Princess Anne did not opt for titles for either Zara Phillips or Peter Phillips, her children, and therefore they go about their daily lives in an ordinary and private manner. They have jobs, et cetera. Beatrice and Eugenie do have jobs. It was their father that constantly pressured for them to have these titles and use these titles. He had an obsession or has an obsession, Andrew, with sort of this idea that he's a blood-born, he's a blood-born prince and the girls are blood princesses.

7:18He used to use that phrase. People were scratching their heads going, what on earth are you talking about? So it's to protect them. And also, let's just not forget, he's also been linked to the spying scandal. And there could be a political motivation for not stripping him of the titles and therefore provoking a debate in Parliament because that in turn might prove problematic for Keir Starmer and the Labour government as they try and distance themselves from this collapsed trial of Christopher Cash and Christopher Berry. So there's that going on in the background. Yes, I mean, you're absolutely right.

7:50This was driven, I would say, largely by William and indeed by the government, concerned about his close relationships with some of these Chinese spies. And there are other people I mentioned in the book who I would argue are also pretty dubious and the royal family shouldn't be cosying up to. Let's just also clarify who it is that Andrew is alleged to have met. So he's met Tsai Xi, who's one of the most senior members of the Chinese Communist Party and a close ally of Xi Jinping. That's China's president, obviously. He met that person at least three times in 2018 and 2019. It was also revealed last year that Prince Andrew had forged a close relationship with Yang Tengbo.

8:30That's another suspected Chinese spy who inserted himself into the highest circles of the British establishment. Andrew, why would the ex-duke have been meeting these people? Under what pretext would he meet these sorts of things? His argument is that he was a trade envoy and therefore he was out to promote British business. And that's how he met a lot of these people. And he became very close to them. A Chinese ambassador was one of the few people who came to his 60th birthday party. But actually what we do know with Ten Bo is that he then used Pitch at the Palace, his charity, to develop his business in China.

9:04And so there's a lot of activity that Andrew has been doing in places like China, Central Asia and Libya. and the Middle East. The other sinister turn that this has taken, and devil's advocates in this say, hang on a minute, there is now this media obsession with Prince Andrew. He's not actually been found guilty in a court of law of anything. Yes, we do have the out-of-course settlement to Virginia Giffray. You could argue that was because the whole thing was becoming so toxic, he just wanted it to go away. You could counter-argue, why would you give$12 million to somebody that you had, quote, never met?

9:38There's the whole row about the photograph of the pair of them together with Ghislaine Maxwell in the background. Duke of York's people at the time said it might have been faked. Everyone else said, no, it's clearly a genuine image. Yes, I would say the image is genuine. We have plenty of testimony. I mean, I relate in the book linking the two people actually seeing her with Virginia Giffrey. But I think also, I mean, he tried to avoid the summons by going up to Balmoral. He refused to cooperate with either the victims' lawyers or the law enforcement agencies, even with mutual treaty assistance being used to try and get them to come forward.

10:12And, you know, both he and Sarah Ferguson are material witnesses. I think for the sake of the victims, they should have made themselves, and I hope they will in the future, as people who were in these houses and would have seen a lot of things and could be very useful. And so, you know, I don't think this can be any argument. Andrew has never responded to any of the allegations made to him. Well, he's denied them vehemently and repeatedly. But he's not. I mean, he could have addressed them rather than deny them. Well, he could deny them and address them. He'll say he addressed them in Newsnight.

10:43Well, look how well that went. The police protection officers could have been brought forward to say he wasn't, for example, in London that night or whatever. So let's get into that. Tim, the Met Police are now investigating claims that Prince Andrew asked one of its officers, so this would have been a taxpayer-funded bodyguard, to obtain personal information about Virginia Giffray. That request has prompted claims that the prince sought information to smear his accuser ten years after she was allegedly made to have sex with him. So I say that, that's a later development. That wasn't what prompted his announcement about relinquishing his remaining royal ties.

11:25This has now come out, this idea of a smear campaign against Virginia Giffray. I suppose the question is, where does a legitimate defence of yourself end and an attempt to sully your accuser begin? Well, I mean, I write in the book about how he, Ghislaine and Epstein, again, the day after the information became public, sought to discredit her. They brought in a PR firm. They discussed in emails. This is the woman, as you say, he claimed he didn't have any memory of. And here we had evidence, which I put in the book, of him trying to smear her then. So, I mean, there have been a lot of campaigns, and those campaigns continue.

12:02In an email from 2011, Andrew told Ed Perkins, the late Queen's deputy press secretary, quote, it would also seem she, Virginia Dufresne, has a criminal record in the United States. I have given her date of birth and social security number for investigation with redacted the duty PPO, personal protection officer. So what's happening here is that Andrew is asking for information on her to be corroborated. It's not known if it was. No, that's what's being investigated. Precisely. We don't know that yet. And also the Dufresne family has said that she did not have a criminal record. No. Although from the perspective of those defending the Duke, they will cite people like Alan Dershowitz, who we have both interviewed, who was accused by Virginia Giuffre of having sex with her when she was underage.

12:49Dershowitz, who was Jeffrey Epstein's lawyer, sued her successfully for defamation and she had to retract those claims. But in regards to Andrew, one could say Dufresne has been taken more seriously now that she's dead because she's dead, because she can say these things from beyond the grave. Well, I think she hoped to be alive when the book was published. Right. But, you know, this is just one more bit of information. I mean, it's not this. The reason that they've tried to stop this is not to do with the trip to the Vatican or anything else. It's the worry that there's a lot more stuff to come out.

13:23There was a lot of comment about how weak the king was and not dealing with it. It was causing huge reputational damage to the monarchy. And I think this is the biggest crisis since the abdication. I don't think they realise it. I mean, this is now seeping from a problem about Andrew to a much wider problem about the royal family. And the discussions are opening up into accountability and transparency, but also into wider corruption within the royal family. Well, you say corruption. Obviously, questions are now being asked about who funded the$12 million payout to Virginia Giffray. There were suggestions at the time.

13:57It was quite openly reported that the late Queen had helped her son finance that out-of-court settlement. I mean, it does seem unfortunate, Andrew, that we now have Queen Elizabeth II, who, let's be honest, was a pretty exemplary figure in public life, now being sullied herself beyond the grave. Yes, I think that there should be a full investigation into his time as a special trade envoy. Ambassadors brought to give evidence on oath, ambassadors who are not talking, but who know exactly what was happening because they were having to shoehorn in meetings for people to help promote his business at the request of Andrew.

14:33Also friendships with people like Saif Gaddafi, Gaddafi's son. What about the sale of that Alpine getaway? Was it in Cloisters? Where was it? No, in Verbier. The house that was sold in Verbier, which they got£18 million for. Well, again, a good example of their behaviour, Isabel de Roura, who was owed still£6 million from when they bought it from her, they needed to pay her back before they sold it. And she let them off the money because she thought they hadn't got it, though they clearly would have got some money when they sold it. And they then promptly went and bought in Belgravia, which they've just sold.

15:07At a loss, it's been reported. Well,£400 ,000 loss. But the point is, you know, when people say Andrew hasn't got any money to keep Royal Lodge, he's just got, or the couple have just got£4 million, which will keep that going sometime. Do we know how much money he inherited from his mother? No, because again, royal wells are sealed and there's complete opaqueness about royal finances. So we have no idea. Even the most obscure members of the royal family have their wells sealed and we have no idea how money is passed down from generation to generation. In your book, you detail some of the extravagant spending of the couple.

15:39And in one of the emails that's come to light, Sarah Ferguson writes to Epstein and says, Hi, could you lend me like$50 ,000 to$100 ,000? For my small bills. And she says, for my small bills. Yes, yes, no. I mean, they were extraordinary extravagant. And she got 15 grand out of Epstein. She said that in March 2011. 11. So it was revealed that she had made what she called a terrible, terrible error of judgment in accepting£15 ,000 from Epstein to help pay off debts. But it was then revealed last month that she had subsequently sent an email to Epstein apologising for publicly criticising him, calling him her steadfast, generous and supreme friend.

16:19Then James Henderson gave an interview to our colleague Robert Mendick to say that she did that because she was receiving very threatening, menacing Hannibal Lecter-style phone calls from Epstein criticising her for criticising him in the press? Well, I mean, I don't think most people write in those very affectionate terms to people when they're being chased or threatened with being sued. I don't think Epstein was in any position to sue her. He was a convicted paedophile, which is what she'd said, described him as, publicly, but of course privately. And of course she had to do that because of her charities and the books she writes.

16:54That's a good point, actually. Any defamation claim from Jeffrey Epstein over being accused of paedophilia wouldn't stand with it. His reputation had already been lowered in the eyes of the man on the Clapham omnibus, to quote my old Lord of Greece. Instead, he was coaching her on how she should address the allegations in an appearance on Oprah Winfrey. Yes, she contacted Jeffrey in inverted commons to say, I'm going on Oprah. It's going to come up for the first 10 seconds, she said, of the interview. Yeah. This is also, by the way, this is on this is what I understood of the Emily Maitlis thing, because sorry to name drop.

17:29I actually spoke to Emily about it afterwards because the Newsnight interview dropped in the November. And then we all ended up at Downing Street for Christmas drinks after Boris Johnson had won that landslide election. She was there and we just had a chat, not about politics, but about that. And she was saying to me at the time, you know, you won't believe it. We said to him, obviously we wanted to get the interview with him because we wanted to get the interview with him about Epstein, but we'd offered him much more favourable terms for this. We will shadow you while you go about your charitable and royal life and then we'll just tag a few questions on the end.

18:04Because of the pomposity and the sort of unique combination of arrogance and ignorance of the man, he was like, oh no, I'm going to do the whole hour. I've got nothing to hide. Apparently Beatrice cautioned against this and said, this is a really bad idea. Obviously, she wasn't listened to. She's then hung out to dry with the Pizza Express in Woking, Revelation. And Emily was saying to me, you know, the other extraordinary thing about it was that he was so pleased with how it went at the time that he then gave her and the crew a tour around the palace. Come and have a look at the throne room. This is where we wave from the balcony.

18:37Like, this had all been an, you know, undiluted success. I'm sorry to be a bit of a dampener, but, I mean, as I show in the book, Emily Maitlis only knew about this interview 72 hours before it took place. and Newsnight were only actually discussing a pitch at the Palace thing, which is quite, quite separate. Sorry, that's what I mean, Andrew. They were going to do something fairly cosy and cuddly about pitch at Palace and then throw in a couple of questions at the end. As you say, it then became this massive sort of presentation. But I've interviewed him. I know what he's like. You know, I remember interviewing him and going on a tour with him to Mexico, flew into Mexico City, and I think I was the only journalist on the job, and it was to kind of beef up this profile I was doing for his 50th birthday.

19:17And I remember encountering him in his office and just finding him to be rather full of himself. And I remember the headline of it was, well, I'm the exception to the rule. I think I said, it's very odd, isn't it, that you divorced your wife in 1996 and you're still living together. What's going on there? And then we went around these different jobs in Mexico. And it reminded me, actually, of his late father's quote about royals never being reluctant to discuss matters of which they know little. He kept on calling me by my surname, Tominy, and saying, are you following this? and I sort of thought to myself, probably better than you, actually.

19:50Well, he used to lecture senior pilots in the Navy about how to fly helicopters. Well, he does know how to fly helicopters, doesn't he? Well, not as a junior pilot he would do that. Are we taking away from him his Falklands service, Andrew? Well, I'm just saying that he has a habit of pretending to be more informed than he is. Yes, well, that's not unique to him in the royal family. You see, I think what's happening here is the palace is trying to cauterise this. they're trying to isolate him and possibly his wife, cut it off and just say, look, here's a bad seed. We can't do anything about that, but we've now pushed him out of the tent.

20:23They haven't. They haven't. But also, I think we have to look into why he's behaved like this all his life and how he's got away with it. And it's partly because of the institution. And Britain is full of institutions, BBC, Church of England, the royal family, where their importance has declined. they don't have the authority they used to have but inside the institution they think they're really important and that they live by rules and they live by rules that no one else does but think of all the scans we've had Jimmy Savile on the BBC we've had sex abuse which forced Justin Welby to resign as Archbishop of Canterbury and now we've had the Duke of York it all comes back to this it's not just the individuals it's the institution itself creates this space in which people like that but hang on a minute If you talk about spares to the heir, you have a situation where the Queen has Prince Charles, the heir to the throne, the future king, and therefore his path is set for him.

21:21They always said that Andrew was the baby she had for herself. And it was said that he was her favourite, that she indulged him. She then has Princess Anne, who's much, much closer to her father. And then they have the baby of the family, Prince Edward, who, to be fair, doesn't go down the military route, does his own thing, is a bit more of a creative. and because he's the youngest one, is sort of allowed to get away with more than the older ones. Why is it? I agree with you, institutionalised, sort of sick of fancy. Well, the siblings are all very different. Exactly, but why is Princess Anne sort of the royal trooper who just gets on with it?

21:54She had a divorce too. Why did Andrew... She had a divorce too. She had a divorce. Harry has had to leave the country. Charles divorced Diana. But this could just be the unique... Diana was killed in a car crash. This is not a happy institution. No, I... There's a deeper rot than one man. Well, no, I've always said it's not so much a nuclear family as a thermonuclear one, right? I do get that, but I'm just saying, when it comes to their actual individual characters, you know, why do you have Anne, Princess Anne, doing the things that she does, hugely popular with the Telegraph audience, and then this bloke?

22:26Because he was shown no boundaries. I mean, he had no discipline. And he's just, I mean, you know, it could be genes, you know, different element to it. You know, I don't think it's the institution because clearly you have Edward and Anne who are serving the institution very well. You know, this is just one bad apple, unfortunately. That's one of the problems of the monarchy. Coming up, what role did the future king, Prince William, have in this? And what will be the impact of the publication of Virginia Giffray's book on this extraordinary saga?

23:06What's Prince William's role been in all this, do you think, Andrew? Well, I think he's the man who put the iron in the whole thing. I mean, he's the one who's going to have to deal with the problem at some point if it's not dealt with now. And I think he has a much more detached and ruthless view. Charles is very sentimental about his brother. I think he probably gave an undertaking to his mother and he would take care of him. And I think William can see just the damage that has been done. Because, as I say, this isn't a problem about one man. It's about one man now raising questions about the institution itself.

23:35Have you seen the footage, Tim, of Prince Andrew trying to cosy up to Prince William at the Duchess of Kent's funeral? At the funeral, that's correct, yes. And he gives him the frostiest reception since Mr Snowman met Jack Frost. I mean, it is so... He does. I don't know if I liked that. Why? I think there's a... You've got this soft spot for Sarah Ferguson that you have to confess to now. I unashamedly admire Sarah Ferguson. Andrew Loudy is horrified at this revelation. I think we're beginning to see a harshness to William's character. It's there in his handling of his brother. Harshness? It's there in that footage of him talking to his uncle.

24:11I guess part of the problem is we can't lip read, but it looks a bit in that footage like his uncle's trying to crack a joke at a funeral. Yes. And William's just not having it. Well, quite rightly, who cracks jokes at a funeral? This is when the hearse is taking off. He also put himself centre stage at a funeral that was for someone else's family. Yes. And I have friends who were there. And I mean, they wanted to be the centre of attention even inside the cathedral. What was that event as well, Andrew, where he suddenly decided he was the one who was going to escort his late mother to her seat?

24:41Well, that was Philip's memorial service. And everyone was like, if you're going to come to this, we understand you're coming. This is your father. But just do whatever you're doing below radar. Well, that was the Queen. And the next thing he's... We've got to remember, this is the Queen who asked for that. And you defend the Queen. But, you know, the Queen, for example, gave him the Night of the Garter the day after the picture appeared. Well, I defend a mother's love for her son. I also defend a woman who, to be fair, was a person of extraordinary character, an extremely stalwart sovereign who, let's be perfectly honest, was the mother of the nation for more than 70 years.

25:17and now because she has a soft spot for a son, I mean, how many mothers out there have got a soft spot for sons that let them down and the institution to which they belong terribly? Yes. I mean, I feel a bit sorry for the... Mrs Thatcher. Well, we had Carol Thatcher in last week and it's very difficult, isn't it? But when the revolution comes... Well, I'm just saying... In 1789, right, it wasn't just Marie Antoinette that was the problem. It was the whole of her... Sorry, is everyone here happy with the Queen being slagged off from beyond the grave? No, absolutely not. Andrew's happy with it. I sympathise because all I'm saying is that that's what the problem was with Andrew.

25:53And I think the problem was that he was spoiled and he was protected by the Queen. Well, why is the Queen always being blamed? Why isn't his father blamed? Why didn't the Duke of Edinburgh, who apparently didn't suffer fools gladly... Let me talk. People did go to the Queen and complain about Andrew and nothing was done. That's the point I'm making. But what about the Duke of Edinburgh? The Duke of Edinburgh is so harsh with Prince Charles that he says, right, get up to Gordonstoun and no, we don't want to hear about your watercolour painting, go on the obstacle course with my old headmaster, Kurt Hahn.

26:21Princess Anne is indulged because she, you know, if it doesn't fart and eat hay, she isn't interested, so they've got this kinship over equestrianism. Prince Edward is indulged because he's the youngest and we're saying that Prince Philip, this man of great character and fortitude who was mentioned in dispatches in the Second World War, couldn't get this kid by the scruff of his neck and say, bloody well, get in line. Well, I know he was very concerned about how it looked when they saw Sunning Hill, but for whatever reason, the Queen's views prevailed there, supported by lawyers and all sorts of other people.

26:54So I think he had his concerns, but clearly he was overruled. I've read the Jufres book, I've read sections of the Jufres book, and the sections on her meetings with Andrew, I have to say I find them credible in the sense that they're not sensationalist. She said she felt as if he felt entitled to have sex with her. Yes. Which he denies. They also reflect the personalities of the people involved as are well established. There's no one in their three sexual encounters who behaves in any way that makes you think that doesn't sound like that person. And just to add, the third encounter was an orgy on his island.

27:32And I come back to this. I'm not saying this is just the monarchy, but there's clearly something amiss in our culture, that super rich people are flying around the world and having orgies with young, according to this, girls who could barely speak English. Or very vulnerable girls. Virginia Giffray was extremely vulnerable. I mean, these girls were flown in from Russia. They didn't speak English. They were models. Right. Why is it that we have this situation with high rollers? We live in a world where rich people are able to. What I want to say is that about the authenticity of the book is that she was criticised for the Billionaires Playboy Club, which was the first draft of this, which she wrote herself.

28:08And there were things in there that were criticised, including the orgy scene, the third episode. Amy Wallace has made a big point of fact-checking everything because clearly her reputation is on the line as well with this book. Amy Wallace being the... Amy Wallace is the ghostwriter. Yes. So I haven't read the book myself, but I would believe everything that's in there because they're going to be very, very careful about what they put in and that it all stands up because people have been trying to undermine Virginia Vigifery's version of events. And I just think it's inevitable in a book written by a young, pretty uneducated woman who's had a pretty traumatic upbringing, remembering things from many years before, that there will be mistakes and there will be inconsistencies.

28:51And that was used to completely try and trash her and to undermine any sort of credibility that she had. So I think they would be very, very careful now with this book to have got it right. So I think this version will be the truth. Do you feel personally vindicated by what's happened in the last few days, given the reaction to your book when it first came out? I recall there was something of a dispute between you and Jacob Griez-Mogg on GB News. Some people pushed back a little bit and said your book might have been a tad sensational. Do you now feel vindicated by what's come out? Yes. I mean, there were huge attempts to try and discredit the book.

29:27I think Telegraph gave it a two out of five review on the day before the book was actually sent out to reviewers. Hang on a minute. We gave you an enraptured audience on the Daily Tea. So you can't accuse us of not giving you a... I'm not accusing you of that. Some people were sceptical. Some were sceptical. Yeah. I'm pleased that the victims are going to get justice, that actually more materials come out to support what I've found. And I hope this emboldened the press to be a little bit more forceful at looking at not only the Andrew and Virginia Jiffrey story, but wider areas such as royal accountability and transparency.

30:03A few predictions to finish, Andrew Lowney. One, will Andrew and Sarah be in Royal Lodge this time next year? I think it's very unlikely. Will Andrew and Sarah appear at any royal occasion, state or more personal, in the next year? No. And four, is there any way at all of Prince Andrew redeeming himself in the vein of, for instance, John Profumo? No. Why? Because it's not in his character. I mean, he's had plenty of opportunities over the last ten years to address some of these things. There was no contrition even in the statement on Friday. He doesn't feel he's done anything wrong. It's a very strong sense of entitlement.

30:51So I'm afraid, in some ways, it's a tragic hero. It is a tragic story of a couple brought down by their own hubris. Andrew Lowney, thank you very much. Thank you.

31:14Thank you.