Prince Andrew's biographer on why the King must cancel Fergie

0:02The Telegraph.

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1:42Camilla: Fergie, the Duchess of York, is facing cancellation for describing convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein as her supreme friend. We're going to be speaking to the Yorks biographer Andrew Lowney to find out what the king should do about this errant couple. And Donald Trump has advised American women who are pregnant not to take paracetamol because he thinks there might be a link to autism. It all sounds mad. We are joined by The Telegraph science correspondent Joe Pinkstone to debunk some of these myths. Welcome to The Daily Tea with me, Camilla Tominy. And me, Tim Stanley.

2:28Camilla: Tim, how do you solve a problem like the Duke and Duchess of York? Sarah Ferguson now in hot water after a lifetime of gaffes and sordid headlines, toe-sucking. She's always been my favourite royal, can I just say that? She really has. Everyone has their own royal and other people are mad for Diana or Charles. I've never seen it. For me, it's Fergie. She's my spirit animal. And famously getting duped by the fake sheikh, trying to sell Prince Andrew for£500 ,000. And now it emerges that the grovelling apology that she made in 2011 for having received£15 ,000 from Jeffrey Epstein, who famously was a convicted paedophile and later died in prison and was good friends with her ex-husband, the Duke of York.

3:15Camilla: emails have emerged suggesting that after she publicly denounced him and said she abhorred paedophilia she privately messaged him she called the sex offender a steadfast generous and supreme friend to me and my family but it is understood that she may have received threats aggressive threats from epstein and been advised to tell him whatever was necessary to stop him from taking legal action against her. That's surely important. Her spokesman James Henderson told The Telegraph's Rob Mendick that Epstein threatened to destroy the Duchess and her family in what is described as a Hannibal Lecter-like call.

3:54Camilla: Well, let's bring Andrew Lowney into the conversation. Welcome back to The Daily Tea. Your book on the Yorks has been selling great guns. In fact, the episode that we did with you some weeks ago was very highly rated and much watched. Well, it was very well presented. Thank you so much. So they're a compelling couple, these two, aren't they? And I've cited some of their history. The question now is what should happen? Fergie's been effectively cancelled. We've got a number of charities who have all disassociated themselves from her, said they no longer want her to be their patron. So that's Julia's House, which is a children's hospice, the Natasha Allergy Research Foundation, the Children's Literacy Charity, The Teenage Cancer Trust, I mean, this was the Duchess's favourite, really.

4:41Camilla: She'd been patron of there for 35 years. What more can you tell us about her relationship with Epstein and this 15 grand and the fallout? Well, it's not 15 grand. I mean, my sources tell me it was more like£2 million. I mean, Epstein wouldn't have bothered with small sums like that, and neither would she. I think also she maintained her contact with Epstein long after she claimed her broken contact. I mean, here she's saying she's been forced by threats of defamation, though it's a pretty effusive response to that. But I had a witness, a woman who used to walk her dog past to mark Epstein's flats.

5:22These were owned by Epstein and his brother. And she was still staying there in 2013. So this is many years after she claimed to have cut off all contact. So I can see why the charities feel that she's pretty toxic to them and have sought to distance themselves. And I'm afraid it's just another example of what Sarah Ferguson says in public is very different to how she behaves in private. What did Sarah Ferguson get out of her relationship with Epstein? Well, it's interesting. I mean, according to Gilead Maxwell, it was Sarah who introduced Andrew to Epstein. But I mean, she got one, a nice place to stay in New York.

5:58She got her bills paid. and debts and I suspect there were useful contacts that she got in the way that Andrew got and what he got of course was his proximity to the royal family his you know with status his respectability and it was a sort of laundering of his own reputation so it was a mutually beneficial relationship so you can understand why she didn't really want to to change it I think he continued to pay off some of her debts you know she remained for a woman who seemed to be very frightened of him she she was pretty friendly with him what's the truth about fergie though

6:32Camilla: because as tim says i mean she is quite a well-loved royal i remember after harry and megan's wedding which she was invited to in 2018 she didn't go to william and katherine's and she's sort of been brought back into the royal fold she was at christmas at sandringham in 2023 i think for the first time since the early 90s and the separation so she's kind of everybody's sort of guilty secret really in a way, guilty pleasure. Fergie, the woman that's erred. There's something human and relatable about her because she's made so many catastrophic mistakes. It's not like people's feelings towards Prince Andrew, who is sort of widely hated and dislikable and has a bad reputation for being pompous and arrogant.

7:15Camilla: There's something quite lovable about this woman, but then in recent days, you know, she's just been described as a venal grifter. Which is it, Andrew? Well, a bit of both. I mean, so she is absolutely charming. I've met her. She's, you can see why people like her. I think Sarah Vine described her as a human Labrador, but even Sarah Vine has changed her views. She was always, if you talk to her staff, very manipulative. She played off people against each other. She was, I mean, I think she played this rather kooky character and people warmed to that. And particularly in the States, they warmed to the idea of someone who perhaps had fallen foul of the establishment, the palace establishment.

7:52She fought her way back. You've got to admire the way that she does pull her back from all her failures. And she made some money doing Weight Watchers. She has done a lot of good work for charity, particularly Teenage Cancer Trust. So it's sad to see those associations end. But the fact is she is very greedy. She is very stupid and she is very naive. And she's drawn into the ambit of these people, predators like Epstein. And she doesn't seem to see that this is a problem. and doesn't seem to listen to people who could advise her that these are not people to get involved in.

8:25Camilla: I've met her on a number of occasions. I interviewed her for The Telegraph magazine a few years ago. She's very kooky. She wasn't initially happy about me being on the shoot because I was meant to do this kind of question and answer thing that was quite controlled and choreographed. Then I turned up, then she warmed up, had lunch together. She was very friendly. By the end of it, she was taking me to her car and giving me children's books that she was signing for my youngest. laughing at the fact that at the time I was driving around in a Volkswagen up. She's very eccentric. She's from a very aristocratic family.

9:00She's made some very dubious life choices,

9:03Camilla: particularly when it comes to her taste in men, which I think is appalling. Her taste in men is so bad. Can I speak in defence of her? First of all, she's not the only person who's fallen foul of Jeffrey Epstein. A lot of cleverer and more upstanding members of society did so. It's expensive to be at Royal, isn't it? even if you're a peripheral royal. You do incur debts. You're expected to live a certain way, but you don't actually, she can't go and get a job in the typing pool or something. She sort of has to live this strange existence off other people because of the nature of the royal. And because she's on the outside of the palace, she can't, not only does she have to do that, but she doesn't have the palace mafia to protect her.

9:42But think of all those people outside, you know, the Lady Chateau, Sarah Chateaus and the Lord Lindley's, you know, who've got careers, who don't have to live as extravagantly as she has. I mean, one of the things I detail and entitled is just the level of extravagance and waste. So she wanted a lifestyle beyond what she could afford, you're right, and then she got involved with people she felt could give it to her. And that was, of course, the problem with Andrew. But, you know, I would say there are lots of members of the royal family, both working royals and non-working royals, who manage to live life slightly under the radar and just do their duty.

10:14And, you know, it's the old trope of public duty and private pleasure. And Sarah Ferguson comes into private pleasure. As you say, she's our guilty pleasure because she's sort of, she's the naughty girl who kind of, we think, gets away with it. Yes. And she has until now.

10:27Camilla: But let's make a distinction here. The Duke of York was cancelled because he was accused of being complicit in some way in Jeffrey Epstein's crimes. He was accused by now the late... Accused of having slept with one of the victims. Virginia Roberts, known as Jufres, she passed away a few months ago, took her own life. nothing was ever proven in a court of law but the seriousness of that allegation the subsequent multi-million pound payoff the lapse of judgment in maintaining a friendship with a convicted paedophile post-release from prison in the same way as it has felled Peter Mandelson was deemed to be sort of too much of an error of judgment to be forgiven let's be perfectly honest here yes there is a huge amount of duplicity in what she said publicly and what she said privately to Epstein.

11:17Camilla: But the Duchess of York is not a paedophile. I do beg the question, what's it got to do with her raising awareness of breast cancer or, in the case of one of the charities, allergies? Well, I mean, you know, the charities have to speak for themselves, but I can see that, you know, it's not good if you want people to subscribe to your charity, to have someone who, and particularly a children's charity, someone who doesn't seem to recognise, you know, what Jeffrey Epstein was and is staying with him years after you've claimed to have disassociated yourself and to be writing so effusively to him.

11:54But this is a question of financial corruption. This is someone who's monetised her position and her status in the royal family in order to make money for herself. And I think that is one of the big questions.

12:04Camilla: Well, that's a strong word to use, Andrew. She's not done anything criminal here. Let's be careful here. You know, you're saying corruption. Hang on a minute. She's not being investigated by police. The police aren't involved in this. Again, it's a massive lapse of judgment. My only point is the Teenage Cancer Trust, which she's been supporting for 35 years, okay, we can have a conversation about what's motivated her to do that and all the rest of it. They've now said, right, that's it. I suppose my general objection, and we've had a lot of this this week already, people trying to cancel Sarah Smith at the BBC for describing Charlie Kirk as far right.

12:39Camilla: Bridget Phillipson's trying to cancel Liz Truss for suggesting that Tommy Robinson isn't far right. We've now got huge efforts to cancel Fergie. What are these people meant to do? What are Fergie and Andrew now meant to do? Are they meant to just remain in a darkened room for the rest of their lives, never appear in public again, not go to any royal occasions, even though they're family, and accept that they've been placed into some kind of early retirement? Well, I think people find it very strange that she should be going to official events and be sitting in the royal box at Wimbledon when she's been divorced 30 years.

13:12But, I mean, no-one is saying they can't go to family events. I think the feeling is that public opinion is unhappy with them going to some of these public, what in effect are royal events.

13:21Camilla: Well, she went to the Duchess of Kent's funeral last week because she and her ex-husband knew Catherine Kent very well. And there was footage which was embarrassing for Andrew, him apparently joking in the... Well, he behaved inappropriately. I think a lot of people would feel that, you know, given their profile, it might have been better to have slipped in the side door. I had friends in the service who were slightly embarrassed to see them. They always wanted to be sent to stage. Another one was a royal family, slipped in quietly, sat at the back. They had to walk straight to the front. It had to be all about their status.

13:51So that's a separate thing. I mean, my book does delineate a lot of very concerning issues about Sarah Ferguson. I think the most serious is the Selman Turk High Court case in 2022, when she had large sums of money being paid to her, which she wouldn't explain. And I do think there needs to be a bit more transparency and accountability because she does pass herself off as the Duchess of York. That's how she gets these endorsements in all her work. And, you know, she's sort of managed to do what Meghan has failed, which is to be half in and half out. So I think there are very legitimate questions.

14:22She's never answered any of the questions that are being put to her about any of these issues, not just the issues this week. And she talks, interestingly enough, about how Epstein has helped her family. Well, is that just her and Andrew or is that actually the children as well? You know, it would be very interesting to hear, you know, what she said. You know, she's come out, as she has in the past. You mentioned the 2010 News of the World sting, you know, which she was selling access to Andrew. And, you know, she's come out. She always distances herself. That was a different person. I'll change now.

14:52And yet she never does change, I'm afraid. And I think, you know, it's a public thing. It's about optics apart from anything else. And I think people are beginning, you know, to feel that, you know, she's taking the mickey, basically. Might I suggest that not only has she not changed, but she's always been the same. I felt with Peter Mandelson, when that was revealed, his relationship with Epstein, my first thought was, why did you hire this man in the first place to be the ambassador? You knew what he was like, and we knew he'd had some relationship with Epstein, and we also knew he'd had to leave government twice before.

15:26Likewise for Sarah, okay, we didn't know about this element of her relationship with Epstein, but we've known for a long time what she's like and what her character is. I remember as a child, it was the toes that was stuck in my mind. Still lingers there like a nightmare. Why for three decades? She was licking, not sucking. She was licking, not sucking. Licking, not sucking. But why for three decades have people come back to Sarah Ferguson and given her so many second, third and fourth chances? Well, she's a great Becky Sharp. She's the Houdini of the royal family. She is able to manipulate herself back.

16:00Philip didn't want anything to do with her. She used the Queen as her protector, even though the Queen actually was not a great fan of hers but felt sorry for the children.

16:08Camilla: Well, hang on. I'm just going to interject there. Prince Philip did once describe her as odd and pointless. And whenever... That's the quote, isn't it, Andrew? And whenever the Queen wanted to invite Fergie to Balmoral for the children, she did admire her for being a good mum to those granddaughters. And by everyone's estimation, actually, Princess Beatrice and Eugenie are pretty well-adjusted young women, despite their parents' obvious foibles. Whenever she was invited to Balmoral, it would have to be during Cow's Week, because the Duke of Edinburgh did not want to be in Scotland at the same time as Fergie.

16:46Camilla: But I disagree slightly. I think that Queen Elizabeth II did have a bit of a fondness for her, actually. Otherwise, why would she have bothered? Well, I think she was, you know, she's very protective of Andrew. She felt that she was pleased that Sarah had stuck by Andrew. And I think that got a lot of loyalty. I mean, they could exactly discuss horses and dogs. Yes. They had the bond of the corgis. And the military, you know, Major Ron, her father and all that. Yeah. But Sarah was also very good. She knew that her calling card was to be a member of the royal family. So she was constantly working away her passage back in there.

17:23And she's worked on Charles and Camilla more recently, which is why she's been taken back in.

17:29Camilla: And she's done a whole mea culpa on Oprah. I mean, she was the original. She's the original Oprah Winfrey royal. I mean, Meghan, eat your heart out. Well, exactly. Meghan could learn a lot from her. But just because she's confessed something doesn't mean that she's changed her behaviour, as Tim says. But what should the king do? I mean, there's talk of they should be stripped of their titles. They're never going to be stripped of titles that they were given upon marriage, which she retained post-divorce. They're not going to be booted out of Royal Lodge Windsor because he's signed quite a long lease and spent some money on it, regardless of what we think about peppercorn rents and all the rest of it.

18:04Camilla: So what does the king do? It's Christmas. I've had the conversation this week with my own relatives. What are we doing for Christmas, Tim? Andrew, what are we doing for Christmas? Who are we inviting? Who are we inviting? What does the king do now? Can you just say, don't pretend people don't exist. That's one of the things I hate about cancellation. And it happened, for instance, with David Starkey. All the titles taken away. Don't pretend he never got this reward. Yeah, don't pretend he wasn't an expert on the Tudors. I can't stand a lie. He urges his titles and rewards. So did Ferg. Married to Andrew for, what, three months?

18:37Married Andrew and then he goes off with the Royal Navy.

18:41Camilla: But the other Andrew, Andrew Lowney, what should the king do? Well, I agree, it's a difficult position and he's caught between his sentimentality, his loyalty to his younger brother, and the wider picture of the optics and the future of the monarchy, the reputational damage she's doing. You know, I mean, they had a police escort, for example, to the Duchess of Kent's wedding, which seems strange and presumably was agreed by Charles. But, you know, there's poor old Harry fighting for all sorts of things and he has a slightly double standards. Poor old Harry, Andrew Lowney, are you going soft? Liz Truss gets secret service detail.

19:16It does seem odd that Harry doesn't.

19:18Camilla: If you're at a major royal event, you get enveloped into the whole security scene. That's why it's slightly disingenuous what Harry's arguing because if he came here with Meghan and the children for a royal event, they'd get the police bodyguards. That's true. I mean, you're the expert, but I understand that some of the royals literally do drive themselves to some events, very low-key events. Anyway, the point is I think, unfortunately, the Yorks don't seem to be taking advice. The advice, as you say, would be to just move out of Royal Lodge, find somewhere nice but not so extravagant. extravagant.

19:47I think the public sort of wants something to happen. I think Charles is in a difficult position because you say they're very limited levers he can pull and he certainly can't get them at a royal lodge. It's up to somehow someone to persuade the two of them that this isn't good for the long-term future of the monarchy. You know, you should have Prince William on here. Maybe he will give you an answer. Maybe.

20:08Camilla: Or maybe the king needs to make a Hannibal Lecter style call and see if that moves the dial. That might do the trick. Andrew Lowdy, thank you very much indeed for joining us once again on The Daily Tea. Always a pleasure. From one controversy to another, coming up next, we'll be discussing Donald Trump, vaccines and autism.

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22:45Camilla: Now Tim, as a follower of all things American and a Pepto-Bismol taker like myself, if I said Tylenol to you, what would that mean? I know that it's an American brand painkiller. I don't know what's in it. If I go to America, I just pile up on Advil PM. Oh do you? But I've never tried. Advil PM's amazing. What is it? If you want a good night's sleep. Oh, is it? Not only do you not feel pain, you don't feel anything. Oh, wow. You barely feel alive. OK, can you give me some of that? Combine it with a glass of whiskey and it's better than a general anaesthetic. But Tylenol, I'm unfamiliar with. It's paracetamol, basically.

23:20Camilla: It's just the brand name in America for paracetamol. And we're speaking about this because we had, I mean, in the scale of outrageous press conferences, Trump always scores highly, let's be honest. But this one was particularly interesting. It featured the president. It featured his health secretary, Robert Kennedy Jr. And this is what was discussed. Effective immediately, the FDA will be notifying physicians that the use of acetaminophen,

23:54acetaminophen, is that okay? Which is basically commonly known as Tylenol. during pregnancy can be associated with a very increased risk of autism. So taking Tylenol is not good. I'll say it. It's not good. There we have the President of the United States advising pregnant women on how to handle pain. We'll get into the scientific evidence with regards to paracetamol and pregnancy in a moment, But Trump also speculated that childhood vaccines could be a cause of autism, which echoes a narrative among some of his supporters, most notably Robert Kennedy Jr., that there is a link between inoculations and autism.

24:45The MMR, I think, should be taken separately. This is based on what I feel, the mumps, measles, and the three should be taken separately. And it seems to be that when you mix them, there could be a problem. So there's no downside in taking them separately. In fact, they think it's better. So let it be separate. The chicken pox is already separate because when that got mixed in, I guess they made it for for a while. It really was bad. So they make chicken pox individually there. OK, when you mix them, something maybe happens. So let those be taken separately. And then hepatitis B is sexually transmitted.

25:34it. There's no reason to give a baby that's almost just born hepatitis B. So I would say, wait till the baby is 12 years old and formed and take hepatitis B. And I think if you do those things, it's going to be a whole different, it's going to be a revolution in a positive sense in the country.

25:57Camilla: So that's the verdict of someone with no medical training whatsoever. Let's hear from a doctor on it, Paul Offit, who's a leading US paediatrician and vaccine researcher. He's actually appeared on The Daily Tea. He's called this moment the most dangerously irresponsible press conference in the realm of public health in American history, which is saying something because, of course, President Trump did once advocate drinking bleach to get rid of COVID. Our own health secretary, Wes Streeting, has waded in. He was speaking on ITV this morning and he said people should ignore anything that Donald Trump is saying and keep taking paracetamol.

26:33I should add that West Treating is also not medically trained, of course. Now, we are joined by Joe Pinkstone, Telegraph science correspondent. Joe, tell us, what evidence is there of a link between paracetamol and autism? So the president, his team, put out a fact sheet yesterday accompanying the press conference. And it's important to know that they cited six studies in that that came from US organisations, including Mount Sinai, Johns Hopkins University and Harvard amongst them.

27:02Camilla: OK, respectable. Respectable organisations, respectable scientists, peer-reviewed papers in published in journals, which on the face of it, the findings would support what we heard from President Donald Trump. But it's important to note that not everything on this topic was included in that fact sheet and also seemingly did not make it into the briefing for the press conference. OK. So the studies were often based on associations and not causal. So therefore there was some kind of a link between paracetamol taken by pregnant women and the children having some kind of autism, ADHD or intellectual disability.

27:38So that's the science that they purport to support the claim. But it's important that we say the consensus outside of Donald Trump's administration does disagree with him. It states that paracetamol is completely fine to take for pregnant women and that there are no risks when it comes to autism in the baby.

28:00Camilla: There's been this Swedish study. It was carried out last year. It debunked the link. Between 1995 and 2019, it assessed the data of 2.4 million children and it found no link at all between paracetamol use during pregnancy and autism, ADHD. and as you say, Joe, intellectual disability. I mean, so there's, to be fair, without completely sort of traducing what Trump and RFK Jr. are saying, there are some people who agree and some people who disagree, but you're saying that the general consensus is disagree. Yes, I think that's a fair reading of the current data. So, for example, in the Swedish study, which British scientists, Irish scientists have said is the best study that looks at this.

28:47it looked at like you say 20 years of data and out of the 2.4 million there was 186 ,000 children who were born to mothers who took paracetamol while they were pregnant so you have a vast data set and then they compared those children with their siblings when their mother was not taking paracetamol and that's a really it sounds quite tedious but it's a really key distinction because then you what you factor into the statistics are genetics and we know that autism does have a genetic underlying and it's driven by genetics and environmental factors but when you factor that in there was no difference at all there was no increased risk so the raw figures were that 1.33 percent of those exposed paracetamol in the womb developed autism within the first 10 years of their life this was compared to 1.53 in those not exposed but when you factored in the sibling genetic factor that completely disappeared and there was no link at all and the scientists said quote we did not see any increased risk of adhd autism or intellectual disability right so their find is fairly comprehensive and have been the ones that the British scientists that I have spoken to have said, this is the one that we look at as the close things to the truth that we can see.

29:55This is what confuses me. How can the Swedish study say that, but the president is able to quote American studies that he says indicate the opposite? It's a great point. And you fundamentally go back to how science is done. And there are very different ways of conducting studies. So The Harvard study, for example, it looked at associations. It looked at, is there a connection between this and that? And they found that there was. But it did not. And they said themselves that we should not draw causal links between this. And the Swedish study, the genetic element of the sibling analysis, is really key in enabling to get rid of the confounding factors that were not taken into account in many of the US studies that were cited by the Trump administration.

30:42Camilla: So where are we in this country on the MMR and links to autism? Because the claims made by Dr Andrew Wakefield, which created a real storm, posed questions about Tony and Sherry Blair and whether they had vaccinated their children and all sorts, sparked a surge in requests for separate MMR vaccines as opposed to the combined dose. The fashion has always been, and this is how my children were inoculated, to have the combined because we felt that Wakefield's research was completely debunked. yes and it is debunked it is completely true that there is no link between autism and the MMR jab in fact in this country now before I came on I was speaking to a scientist involved in these sort of decisions you cannot get the MMR vaccine separately they're simply not manufactured so for measles mumps and rubella the only way that you can get vaccinated against them on the NHS is to go with the MMR jab and in January that will be combined with the chickenpox jab of the varicella vaccine.

31:42So there is no link between the MMR jab and autism that has been debunked following the Andrew Wakefield misinformation saga that came out of that time. The confused messaging, I think, from Donald Trump during his press conference around taking the vaccine separately, perhaps he was meaning to talk about the MMR and the chickenpox vaccine separately. Because there is a connection between when you add the chickenpox vaccine onto the MMR jab, which the UK is doing as of January, you do increase the risk of a medical condition. I believe it's like a fit. It's like a febrile episode that occurs in one in every 2 ,300 children that have this vaccine.

32:26You have an extra case of this. So there is a valid medical argument and discussion to be had over the increased risk of that. but there is no link at all between autism and the MMR jab. Because vaccines do have, in small numbers of cases, side effects. Yes. I mean, we know why we're here, right? We're here because the incidence of people presenting with autism is up dramatically. Yes. And we're trying to figure out why this has happened. And what people like Robert E. Kennedy have wanted to explore is the link between increased pharmaceuticals use because we're asking ourselves, what do we do differently?

33:0430 or 40 years ago when it comes to raising kids. And one argument is, well, one thing we do is we give them a lot more pharmaceuticals than we used to do, which are, by the way, not just given to them, because I sound like a crank, but it's true. They're not just given to them out of the kindness of the drug company's hearts. Pharmaceutical companies make billions of dollars every year out of giving stuff to kids. Is it therefore unreasonable? And I suspect it isn't because apparently John Hopkins and Harvard have been looking into it. is it unreasonable to explore if there might be a link between pharmaceuticals and this increase in autism?

33:38No, I think it would be irresponsible not to explore these concerns. And I think part of the role of scientists and science as a concept is to do that. I think what we need to make sure we're doing is listening to the findings and the right findings on that. It would be remiss of research organisations not to look at these links or any potential links for that matter. but the rise in autism cases is fairly well explained by awareness and reducing the stigma and the widening of symptoms and the lowering of the bar for an autism diagnosis that's what the that's what that side of the argument do say and you get to a question of what is the true prevalence of autism in in the population the estimates one to three percent but with the rising cases i mean i found some stats not so long ago that since 2019 there is now a 13-fold increase of the wait list for people in the uk on the nhs waiting for an autism diagnosis that's an enormous increase the meteoric rise that donald trump spoke about is true and we're seeing that over here the question is is it new autism cases that we didn't see decades ago yeah yes or are we diagnosing cases that were missed or kennedy would say it might be that there are more cases yes But they're coming from an environmental or a toxic base.

34:57Camilla: Kennedy is sometimes also coming out with just statements that are factually untrue. Oh, the Amish don't have any vaccines and take any drugs and there are no autistic Amish. To which the Amish community replied, no, some of us are autistic. I agree with what Joe's saying. I think this is down to increased prevalence and awareness. I do think that social media has played a part and in this way. If children are thinking, I feel a bit different. My brother was dyslexic. At the time we were at school in the 80s and 90s, he was considered stupid. He was stigmatised. Why can't he read? Why can't he write?

35:33Camilla: My parents sort of pushed through that pain barrier, managed to get the school to kind of recognise that he needed some help. But it was rare as hen's teeth to even come out with saying my son's got dyslexia and the rest of it. Back in the 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, whatever, people who had autism would have tried to hide it, would have been considered socially awkward and difficult. The children themselves, because they're exposed to this online, I genuinely think this, are then saying to their parents, I want to be checked out. The parents who are exposed to it online are then saying, I want you to be checked out.

36:05Camilla: Yes, has that also led to a flurry of OGVA diagnosis and people saying things like they have OCD when really they're just wanting to be tidy or they have ADHD when sometimes they lack focus. All of these things are on a spectrum. For some people, it's severe. For some people, it's extremely mild. Does every child with any of these conditions need to be medicalised? Possibly not. But we've become more demanding as a society. You know, in the 1960s, you had a headache and you took a paracetamol to keep the theme up. These days, people are demanding MRI scans. It's just the way that the world works.

36:42Camilla: Should the president be making these statements is my question. He shouldn't reach conclusions. but I think it's very reasonable for him to ask questions. I have noticed around autism, people don't want to discuss it, partly because it involves kids. And people think and assume that if you ask questions like, is this about over-diagnosis, you're saying, I think you're making it up. Yeah, I don't believe you. And that's absolutely not what we're doing. And I will add for the record that there is autism in my family. I understand it better than I used to and I respect it as a diagnosis. It's a thing.

37:11It is an actual physical thing, right? We can observe it in the brain. We know it's real. But partly because of this oversensitivity, because the establishment shuts down every discussion of it, like you heard Wes Streeting do. And as I said, Wes Streeting's not a doctor. Don't come to your health secretary. OK. But you're not like this godlike word on what is right or wrong because the establishment shuts everything down. That welcomes lunatics to fill the vacuum because the only place where you, well, not the only place, but one place where you will hear a discussion of this is among the far right.

37:43So where are people going to pick up their information from about vaccines, etc.? They're going to get it from bad sources because we're reluctant to have the conversation. I also feel that some of what we describe as autism is part of the spectrum of human behavior. I feel that if I had been born 20 years later with my personality when I was a teenager, I would have been diagnosed as autistic. I couldn't look you in the eye. I was totally introverted, couldn't express all these sorts of problems. I don't have that now.

38:12Camilla: No. So what is this condition that you grow out of? Yes, I know. Or is it something to do with being a human being? Can I say, though, as a mum of three, the difficulty when you're pregnant, and I think that this is a problem at a state level, is the mixed messaging and advice. I had my first child and I was told to wean the child at four months. I had the second child 20 months later and was told to wean it at six months. I was given a list of things I could do and then I couldn't do. in this whole health space and sphere, there's contradictory advice coming in the whole time. And that's why I think a president of the United States has to show a degree of responsibility because you're actually blinding people who do not have medical knowledge, i.e.

38:56Camilla: the public, with a load of information and you don't know which way is up. Joe, final thought on this from you? My final thought would be that in the UK, the people I would listen to the most would be the JCVI, Joint Committee for Vaccination and Immunisation. I would listen to them when it comes to the spacing of any hepatitis B or any MMR and MMRV vaccines. I would also advocate for you to make your own concerns heard by people treating you, any nurses, any doctors, and raise your concerns. And don't be afraid to have the conversation because, like we said, if you don't fill that void, misinformation will fill it for you.

39:31And it's worth noting that the MHRA, the medical regulator in the UK and the European Medical Agency, they are very clear that there is no link between paracetamol and autism. And they say that if there is the miscommunication and then women become too afraid or worried about taking paracetamol joint pregnancy, they will then fill that void because the pain is not going to go away. And they will fill it with worse alternatives that are more harmful to their health and to that of their child. So there is that element of this as well. It's not quite as simple as paracetamol or nothing, of course.

40:05Very good. When my mother has a pain condition, we last went to see a specialist. She asked him a series of questions. Could it be caused by this, this and this? And the specialist looked at her with the most patronising smile and said, I can see you've been reading things online. As though she was supposed to sit in a room and suffer and not investigate it for herself. And I do feel that some of this discussion around vaccines and painkillers, I feel an element of that, that the medical profession is saying, just take the stuff and don't ask questions. I don't blame people for asking questions.

40:34Camilla: Can I also just send a message out to women in labour everywhere? If you're only offered paracetamol, ask for more drugs. Back up drugs. I do recommend pathodrine as a lifestyle choice when you're in that 10 centimetres dilated state. Joe Pinkston, thank you very much indeed. Thank you. We'll see you tomorrow at 5pm.

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