‘Racist’ Restore supporters sent me death threats reveals Reform’s Laila Cunningham

0:03Camilla: The Telegraph.

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1:22Three days to the Makerfield by-election and restore and reform are at each other's throats.

1:28Camilla: We speak to Reform's Leila Cunningham, who accuses Rupert Lowe's supporters of issuing racist death threats against her. Welcome to The Daily Tea with me, Tim Stanley. And me, Camilla Tominy.

1:49Camilla: Tim, who'd have thunk it? Andy Burnham's not quite as popular as he thinks he is. We're going to speak to Leila Cunningham from Reform in just a moment. I'm Andy Burnham. Hi, I'm Andy Burnham. I'm Andy Burnham. I'm from Roundir. I'm Andy Burnham. Hi, I like Oasis. So YouGov has found that his favourability has tanked since he got involved in Makerfield, the by-elections on Thursday. We've got a special on Friday, just to flag. He was at plus nine, but he's been declining. Which is good for a politician, by the way. It is very good. Positive is good for a politician. Anything with a plus is amazing, isn't it?

2:19Camilla: So plus nine. Plus mine was great. That was mid-May, and then he's tanked since then, and he's now down on minus 11. Which means more people say they really dislike him than people say they like him. I can give you the actual stats. Right, OK. Asked if they like Andy Burnham, 30 % of respondents said they did like him, but 41 % said they disliked him. Now, bearing in mind, this is during an election that he's probably going to win, possibly very well, in his backyard, for which he is being given wall-to-wall glowing media attention. Not from us, but... He's not really talking about policy. he's just wearing black shirts and going around saying, I'm Andy Burnham.

2:56Yes.

2:57Camilla: When you say black shirts, that sounds a bit like he's... You mean, well, to be fair... That would suggest a frisson of philosophy in a man. Yes, indeed. There's no ideology that strong in Andy Burnham. No, no. His face, his emojied face has been plastered across the constituency as we observed last week. Do watch that episode if you've missed it. So, yeah, I think what we may be fast concluding is the more people hear of Andy Burnham outside of the Manchester bubble... And the Westminster bubble. The more they dislike him. The West Manchesteran bubble. Wow. That's quite a bubble. Has tried to give us a figure of an everyman, voice of a generation, local hero.

3:36Yes. But that means nothing to you if you're not a 55-year-old man called Andy from Manchester. That's true. This is the frustrating thing about people who cook up political personalities. They always assume that what turns them on turns everyone else on.

3:50Camilla: Yes. But actually, if you watch that question time, OK, Robert Kenyon fumbled a few answers. But I got nothing from Andy Burnham that said to me, that man has a plan in his back pocket that's going to turn Britain around. But this is also about lowest common denominator politicians, right? So compared to Keir Starmer, Andy Burnham looks to be a good alternative. I saw him yesterday at this morning on the set. It's a funny old place this morning. You're there at daytime TV. I saw Keir Starmer, yes. I saw Keir Starmer. He was on. Well, first of all, my whole morning was predicated by people phoning me going, hi, Kamala, it's whoever from this morning, just to let you know the Prime Minister's on the show.

4:27Camilla: I went, yeah, no, I know, I've heard. Somebody else phoned. Prime Minister's on the show. That's just to warn you in case you'd rather not come in this morning. I thought at one point they were going to say, and he's insisted that you're not there. That wasn't said. It was like, you've got to watch his interview and then you've got to react to it. I'm like, well, duh, that's what I do every day. And it was weird because he was on, but so was Craig Revel Horwood. and Anton Debeck from Strictly, along with a load of dancers. So they're like crossing in the corridors. Right. And I just made a bit of eye contact.

4:57I bet they got more autograph requests than he did.

4:59Camilla: He kind of came past and saw me and I went, good morning. I'm absolutely clear that it's the morning. That's one thing I'm absolutely clear about. And then he went in and spoke to Ben Shepard and Kat Dealey. Who spoke to him as though he was lying on a psychiatrist's couch. I know. I felt, how are you? Well, he looked a bit broken. He did look broken. He looked a bit tearful. He looks terrible, doesn't he? We sound like a couple of old gossips, don't we? It's appalling. Well, that's what we are. But I will say in his defence, and this is something that's not been factored into a leadership challenge, he keeps saying he will run against Burnham.

5:36Let's take him at his word. Burnham will just be an MP from Makerfield. Keir Starmer will be Prime Minister. Yes. That will bring a certain dynamic to a leadership race that I feel people are not factoring in. And if Keir Starmer's got any sense, he'll wear a tie. Which he did do on that programme, by the way.

5:55Camilla: Although I did love your sketch about him in leisure wear and how it looked as if he was having a breakdown. I know. There are some people that when they put a tracksuit on, you're like, should we actually phone somebody and get some help? He'll be appearing on television in a dressing gown with no bottoms next. He really will. Oh, God, answering the door. But I want to point out from this poll, because this interests me, the same phenomena has happened to wear streeting. who has used this leadership campaign to introduce himself to the nation. And the nation's response has been, uh-uh. Yeah, survey says, back in your box.

6:28Camilla: Well, he's come out with his speech this morning in which he has said that Keir Starmer should certainly resign after the Makerfield by-election. He seems to be saying regardless of the result... After a Labour victory. So after Labour wins a by-election against reform in a contest that people are saying was reforms to lose, the Prime Minister should resign. Yes. None of this makes sense. And such is Streeting's self-confidence that he's not only standing against Starmer, of course. He's coming out with all of this anti-Burnham. He's running against the Labour Party. He's running against the Labour Party and Burnham because he's coming out with phrases like this.

7:00Camilla: We mustn't ignore the bond markets, which is a direct swipe at Burnham saying, oh, I don't really know what the fiscal rules are. And by the way, we can't be in hoc to the bond markets. OK, thank you very much, Burnham. He's also said that he's against sweeping renationalisation. So again, being more Blairite, and Burnham being brownite. And then he also says that Burnham is wrong about neoliberal failure. Right. See, this is interesting because there are three contenders except Starmer, Burnham, Streeting, and of course the man we spoke to yesterday, Al Carnes. And we both came away from that interview thinking, he sounds like a conservative.

7:35Yes, well, he was once a conservative. I know, but I read the comments on YouTube and a lot of our viewers and listeners said, I rather like this man. But if you think about the things he was saying, basically popular capitalism plus spending more on defence, that's conservatism. Now, why are people running to be leader of the Labour Party coming out with right-wing talking points? Now, I suspect it's because the left has run out of ideas. They've concluded privately that if I got this job, I would have to do right-wing stuff. I would have to cut welfare. I would have to do something about the economy.

8:12Camilla: So far, they've done a load of stuff and it's gone really badly, horribly wrong. And the economy is in a ditch. So for all of their rhetoric, and by the way, the premiership is in tatters. So for everything that was promised in the manifesto, it's all gone very quickly southwards. That's the trouble, isn't it? So yeah, come up with some better ideas, guys, because your ideas are rubbish. West Streeting was once quoted saying, the way to win a Labour leadership contest is simple. You run from the left. and then you govern from the right. He has reversed this equation. And I would just love to know what's going through the mind and why it is he's done it.

8:50Camilla: But why are people under the illusion that you say one thing and then you do another and that's going to ingratiate yourself? The public will reward you for lying to them. Exactly, because the Conservatives campaigned on the right and governed on the left and that didn't work out great for them either. But regardless of everything we've just said, Burnham could still win this by-election because reform and restore in Makerfield are splitting the vote on the right and it could cost Nigel Farage ultimately that seat and dash some of his hopes of becoming the next prime minister. Out of the six polls that we have of Makerfield, in four out of six, reform loses by a percentage smaller than restore wins.

9:35So in other words, in four out of six of these polls, restore costs, reform the election.

9:41Camilla: Well, on that note, Tim, let's welcome Leila Cunningham, Reform UK's candidate for mayor of London, into the studio. When's that election? 2029? 2028. 2028. Well, we look forward to that. In the meantime, there's a small matter of the Makerfield by-election. The polling's not looking brilliant for you guys. Tim and I were there last week. quite a few shy reformers hiding in the shadows. They didn't want to say on the record they were supporting your party. Worryingly still, quite a few Restore fans. Did you come across them? We did. Restore's candidate there appears to be polling at 7%, which, as you know, is enough to cost Reform the seat and pave Andy Burnham's path to Downing Street glory.

10:26I mean, so the polls are not always accurate, number one, but also I think they were polling, there are two polls, only 500 people. And you can imagine that people... On the doorstep, activists have told me that they've knocked on someone's door and they're like, but you were here just half an hour ago. Why are you here again? And they're like, no, no, no, that was restored. This is reform. And there used to be a party called Reclaim, but it's gone now.

10:45Camilla: OK, there's another party called Advance. But can I just say... Refurbish. Leila, this is kind of all Nigel Farage's fault because if he had just kept Rupert Lowe in the tent, you wouldn't now have him eating your lunch in Makerfield. Well, I mean, Nigel removed Rupert Lowe from the party for various reasons and they were completely valid. It was before my time, so I can't comment on it. But I think it was the right choice. Listen, and if people want to vote for Restore, that's democracy. It's up to them. But it could cost you that seat. You appreciate that this split on the right now means that you are potentially in danger of letting Labour take that seat.

11:25Camilla: It's 65 % leave. It's 97 % white. Reform swept the board at the locals there. And it is the perception that reform has gone overboard in criticising Rupert Lowe by, for instance, one of your party members describing Restore as a neo-Nazi party. I can't recall which one that was. I don't know who that was. Right. But it's the perception that reform has gone overboard. Well, you saw the Daily Mail story. Yeah, the Daily Mail on Sunday had this claims that people associated with Restore had expressed neo-Nazi tendencies. There's also some evidence of people associated with Restore being virulently anti-Semitic.

12:02Camilla: You know, there are bad apples there, as there are in any party. But what Restore voters will say is the Uni Party always condemns everyone it disagrees with as a racist. And here is reform apparently condemning everyone it disagrees with as a racist. I don't know if we've condemned them as racist. I don't think Rupert Lowe's a racist. I haven't heard any. I don't listen to much of what he says, and his tweets are rather long to read. They are very long. Very long. Only men ever do threads, by the way. Here are my thoughts. One of 50. Yeah, exactly. They are the das Kapital of tweets, aren't they?

12:35Honestly. They should come in five volumes. I mean, when I write a tweet, it takes me ages to get it in the 280, because I know, you know, attention is short. It is kind of an ego thing for men. Listen, I've had racist abuse from Restore voters, and I know people are going to say, oh, I've had it from reform voters, like you say, but I've had it the most since they've come into play. What kind of stuff? So there's a meme going around. It's basically me in a wheelbarrow, dead, being pushed by Rupert Lowe, saying, deport, Allah Akbar, deport, and I'm dead. And that's going around. And what was scary is that somehow my mum saw it and she was bawling her eyes out.

13:15But I get every time I post something, I said to Paul, you're not British. They have an issue with the kids of immigrant like myself or immigrants who have become British. They have a problem. Somehow they don't. I'm not saying Rupert does, but people from that party seem to think that I'm not British. And I take huge offence to that.

13:34Camilla: I mean, this is ironic because the left would say that of some of reform's policies, Nigel Farage last week came out with this idea that if you're a foreigner in a council house, that you would be evicted under a reformed government. Yeah, but that person's not British. This is a totally separate argument. Can you explain that policy and indeed your policy of stripping foreigners, in inverted commas, of benefits? Yeah. So, for instance, in London, we have 15 sanctuary boroughs, Westminster included. And that means that they prioritise refugees for social housing, public services. And I've seen it in Westminster as a councillor.

14:07and we find that abhorrent especially as we have veterans sleeping rough because they're deemed to be you know single white men and and just so you know under the Equalities Act you cannot prioritise people on the basis or they call it discriminate on the basis of nationality and they include British people in that and I put it to you if you cannot be prioritised as a Brit in your own country where can you be? It's a fundamental principle that British housing, British public services goes to British people. And that's it. And we believe that net migration should be a net benefit. I mean, migration in general.

14:41And if you can no longer support yourself, thank you very much for your time here, but you can no longer stay here. The British public can't afford it. It's the same in Dubai. You know, Dubai, you have one type of visa. It's a work visa. You support yourself. Once you can't, you leave. And that's how successful economies operate, because you cannot have open migration with open welfare. It's unaffordable. And that's all we're saying.

15:00Camilla: but the practicalities of evicting people who have been living in council housing probably for some time how's that actually going to work in practice because we discussed this once with Zia Youssef and he complained about a title we used regarding sort of reform trying to adopt ICE style deportations he was like no no change that title that's not what we're trying to do here but I mean I put it to you if you are going to evict people foreigners from council housing I would assume that they would need to be sort of rounded up in vans and taken somewhere. No, I think once people realise that social housing is not for them, they won't be able to stay in social housing.

15:40They will make arrangements to either get private housing or they will go back. I mean, you've got to admit that some people come here for the pure reason that they have access to welfare. You know, in Egypt, where I know lots of immigrants that are here that are living on social welfare, there's no social welfare in Egypt. There's no social welfare in Pakistan, in Bangladesh, in Afghanistan. You can't just live off the state endlessly. And so you have people that come here with the sole purpose of doing that. And it's just it's just not affordable for the British people. I just want to say nearly 1.5 million migrants received universal credit last year, which amounts to around one in six people who receive universal credits were born abroad.

16:23Camilla: Sure. I can understand the motivation behind the policy. I'm just interested in the practicality and the execution. And I think this is sometimes where people feel that reform falls short. These are great ideas in principle to some. Some will support them wholeheartedly. They'll agree with you about the prioritisation of Brits, particularly, as you mentioned, the case of veterans that have fallen on hard times and are sleeping rough in the street while people who may have arrived here illegally and are now seeking asylum are shacked up in a migrant hotel. And that does seem to people to be iniquitous.

16:56Camilla: But I think it's always about, well, how will you actually do this? Tim and I were discussing it earlier. It's going to cause an absolute frenzy of lawfare, some of these policies. I mean, why don't we all retrain as human rights lawyers? Because we're going to be in clover if reform get in. Well, it depends. It depends what primary legislation is passed. But for instance, I was on policy and scrutiny in Westminster Council on the housing brief. And the person in charge who was Labour was in charge of the housing brief. and she put out a whole new policy for housing, right? With a shiny new policy.

17:26We're going to build housing, social housing, and we're going to house everyone. And it said that we are only going to prioritise women, LGBTQ +, and people from what they call the global majority. And in brackets, they put Roma gypsies, people from the Middle East, people from my background. I think they put Bangladeshis and Pakistanis. The next page of that report said that 60 % to 80 % of homeless people in Westminster City Council are white men. So I put my hand up, as anyone would, and I'm sure you're asking the same question. Why are we not prioritising white men? I've spoken to so many of them in my ward at the time who were veterans.

18:00That meeting got shut down. I was called racist. I was banned. I was said, we will not engage in Councillor Cunningham's racial rhetoric or racist questions. But bear in mind, I'm from the Middle East, so they were prioritising people. And the two Labour councillors on there said, you know, I'm not engaging with her anymore. I was banned by the Conservative whip from ever asking a question about this because Labour threatened to put a formal racist complaint against me. So it is changing the attitude as well as legislation. That is unacceptable. It is unacceptable that you have in Westminster, they are not prioritising British people who are sleeping rough on the streets and prioritising those that just arrived.

18:41And you and I know, Camilla, that those that arrive on boats, they become asylum seekers. And up to 90 percent of those asylum claims are granted. Right. So then they become refugees. And then they do go to the top of the housing list because of the Localism Act. They are deemed most in need. And so all this has to change because, number one, it's unaffordable. And I can't bear seeing people sleep rough while people who could have potentially arrived illegally being housed at the taxpayer's expense. And imagine, we keep hearing of tax rises, tax rises, tax rises. And then you're like, well, what am I paying for?

19:18You know, I had someone in a council estate who literally cried to me. You know, she's a bus driver. I've been working for 20 years, can't afford to have a holiday. And she's on that threshold where she doesn't get council help. Right. Good on her. She says, listen, I don't blame the council. So I'll work harder. I'll try and earn more. She says, but there's a neighbour in this council estate where I'm paying rent, doesn't speak English, has three kids and lives for free. And I'll just give you another example. Let's say you went to Oxford, right? And you've graduated and you earn what, 60 to 70 at a firm in London, top 85 % earner.

19:51You live in zone two in really not a great little flat. After income tax, rents, increased prices, everything, you don't have enough disposable income to buy a house and you know that 30 and 40 year olds or maybe 20 and 30 years are delaying having children because they can't afford to own a home. It's a fact, right? And when that person, let's say that person who's graduated, done everything right, wants to have children, what are they going to do? They're going to move out of London. Invariably, they're going to move out of London because they can't afford to buy a home. And that's why you've seen demographic change.

20:21The person who was granted refugee status and has social housing, they're going to apply to have their dependents flown in from another country. and when they want to increase their family size, they're not going to move out of London. They're going to be given a bigger house in London. That person who arrived illegally could potentially have more security of home in London than a Londoner who was born and raised. And we will not accept that once it comes to having children, a city where you're born and raised and worked and contributed and you're told, you know what, this city is no longer for you.

20:52You're going to move out but subsidise those that just arrived to live in the city you love but can't afford. That, for me, is unacceptable, I think, for reform as well. And that's across the country. So to get back to this question of what's the difference between reform and how Restore appears online, because in my head, there's some confusion about precisely what Lo thinks and what his supporters think. I agree. What reform is saying is this all comes down to are you British or not, with a preference for if you're British. 100%. For your online critics, they're saying the issue is the definition of who is actually British.

21:24Well, it's a nationality. Right. Right. It's not a DNA test. Some people would like it. Well, they want to make it a cultural test. And their point would be that, for instance, if you take Henry Novak and Digwa, that is someone who is actually not first generation immigrant. And they would say, I'm not defending them. I'm just explaining the difference between you and them. They would say part of our problem is we have a lot of people in this country who we simply say and treat as British, but they don't operate as British. No, and that is a problem. And that's why we are also tightening the rules around eventually claiming British citizenship.

21:58You know, it's an honour and it should not just be at the end of some kind of time limit. The greatest privilege in the world, I would say, is to be British. And it should not just come at the end of, you know, five, ten years. It should come with other conditions. And those conditions, I'm sure, will be set out by Zia properly. But yeah, I think we do have a problem. But that's a separate issue. Coming up, what does a mother of six say about replacing the Equalities Act? And what does a self-styled vigilante mom think about the social media ban?

22:48Camilla: yourself. Browse thousands of popular podcasts, choose the shows that match your perfect audience, set your budget and launch. And if you want a hand, our podcast specialists are there to help you launch with confidence. This is podcast advertising without barriers. Get started at acast.com slash advertise.

23:16You talk about the importance of primary legislation. Reform wants to scrap the Equalities Act, right? And doing that means that it suddenly leaves a lot of people unprotected. So now you're having to write new legislation, the Women and Motherhood Protection Act. I mean, people are going to say to you, why not just keep the Equalities Act? Why get rid of something which covers everyone, only to have to introduce piecemeal legislation that protects everyone who used to be under that umbrella? Well, I think the Equalities Act, listen, it's not my brief, but the Equalities Act, I think, has been perhaps misconstrued and used to discriminate against white people.

23:54You know, you have seen programs and internships and special programs that are for black people or Asian people. And listen, you know, over 50 % of black and Asian boys go to university, only 16 % of white working class boys go to university. Yet if you have a program for them, under the Equalities Act, that could be deemed racist. But somehow it's fine under the Equalities Act to have a program for black boys or Asian boys. And I think it's just, it's leveling the playing field. Yeah. I mean, some people feel that the very title of the act, Women and Motherhood Protection Act, sounds quite right-wing and sort of natalist.

24:33And to quote Bridget Philipson, she says, Nigel Farage has spent years arguing women don't need the protections and rights we fought for. From their leader praising Andrew Tate to running a self-professed sexist as a candidate, she's referring to Robert Kenyon in Makerfield, reform proved time and again they have a problem with women. I reject that. I don't think Rob is... What did she call him? She called him a sexist. I don't think he's sexist. I had a great conversation with Rob. He admires women and perhaps he made unwise comments. I don't think you can judge someone. He doesn't believe there should be referees, that's for sure.

25:05Camilla: I don't think he thinks that they can navigate a car either. Listen, I don't think that makes him sexist. He has said, I no longer think that, and it was a joke. We should stress. Yeah, it was a joke. And I've actually heard... I really fundamentally don't believe he's a sexist. I had the pleasure of spending all day with him. And I fundamentally reject that. I don't even know what she's talking about. We've always valued women in reform. What we haven't valued is hiring a woman for the sake of a woman. And that's what we reject. I would not want to be hired just because I'm a woman. That kind of undermines any talent a woman has.

25:40And that's what you've seen. And reform says this act would actually be stronger because it would add protections for women undergoing fertility treatment and include explicit breastfeeding rights, etc. But I think what this comes back to is when reform said we're going to get rid of the Equalities Act, a lot of journalists immediately hit them with, well, doesn't that leave women uncovered? And it does feel as though this has been cobbled together in response to that. And a constant criticism of reform is it's a boys club. It's run by men who just don't get women and women's, the challenges that women face.

26:07Is that your experience of the party internally? No, I mean, listen, I was made mayoral candidate, which is quite a big role. I appear on TV for them. I hope it's not because I'm a woman. I haven't been told it's because I'm a woman. I think Nigel values women just like the next person. And you've seen, you know, he's given a massive brief to Suella. And I don't think there's anything more pro-women than what's been announced now.

26:33Camilla: I'm going to just be devil's advocate for a moment because, I mean, we're in politics and journalism and we're in a public facing role. So the counter narrative to that could be that you were picked, yes, because you're a good talker and you're very feisty and you've described yourself as a vigilante mum. and you've lived a life before politics, which is significant, but you're also very attractive, very presentable. You're a Muslim woman, which perhaps reform have singled out for thinking that that could help you win some votes in London. There are always characteristics. The same could be said of Youssef.

27:07Camilla: Who can orchestrate your pretty robust immigration policies if not a Muslim man representing reform? I think we're sometimes saying, of course, everybody's guilty of using these characteristics. Why am I doing this job? Why is Tim described as having a glow up yesterday by Kemi Babe not doing this job? Because we don't look like the back end of a horse or tram, hopefully. So there's always reasons why people are chosen, Leila. For sure. And listen, it's a collection of reasons, right? And the fact that you say that I could win votes in London because I'm Muslim shows the fundamental failure of mass migration.

27:46The fact that only some people have, many people have told me that. Do you agree with that premise? I could be wrong. I mean, I don't know. I hope that's not the only reason why I was picked. And that's not what I was told. I believe it's because perhaps I have other skills.

27:59Camilla: But I've been told that a lot. I've been told that a lot. Well, would any party right now with everything that's gone down in London since October the 7th pick a Jewish candidate? No, they probably wouldn't, which I'm sorry is an extremely depressing and damning indictment of the state of play that we're in right now. But no, you probably wouldn't pick a Jewish candidate to run as mayor of London right now, would you? Because you know that there'll be a huge caucus of Muslims who would vote against them. You might pick Zach Polanski. You might pick an explicitly anti-Israel Jewish candidate. Well, possibly, yeah.

28:30Well, I mean, the fact that we're discussing religion as an attribute to any candidate for the capital of the United Kingdom shows the failure that we've suffered and that's what we want to reverse. You know, mass migration has changed demographics and has changed the political landscape that you have to talk about religion when you're thinking about who to pick for the London mayor. It's terrible. It should not come down to that. But you're right, it has. So many people have said, oh, well, you're going to get so many votes because you're Muslim. And that, for me, shows failure. It's not something I'm proud of.

29:00I think that shows a failure of mass migration and how we failed the country. It should be on merit. And actually, if I would go further, you should be able to win the capital of the United Kingdom with perhaps a Christian white person more. You've talked about some of the hate you've faced online. The government's going to ban under 16-year-olds from using social media. What do you think about that? Is that the place to start for trying to reduce some of the toxicity of the internet? No, I don't think so, because in banning social media for under 16-year-olds, they're going to age-gate me. What does that mean?

29:31What does that mean? Well, how are they going to prove that? You're not that young. No, no, but I'm going to have to show some form of identity to go online. And I think anonymity is a right. Don't you have to show some sort of identity to say sign up to Netflix? But that's not social media. No, I know, but it's accessing an online service. I'm not sure what the difference is. And you don't have to show it, you just pay up. But you have to... Hang on.

29:55Camilla: If we... But by paying up... It's quite nice for people to identify themselves if, for instance, they're tweeting grotesque memes of you dead in a wheelbarrow. I'd quite like to know who these people are as opposed to their weird handles. So I can visit them. So I can visit them. Hang on, but think of the unintended consequences, right? We've seen a government that's clearly cracked down on free speech. You know, they brought the online safety bill saying it's for children. Oh, my God, guilt tripping anyone who said otherwise. And then two weeks ago, we said that they're going to censor harmful content in times of civil unrest.

30:27It's the creep. I don't trust the government to know who I am with what I say online, because what if I do post something that they call is harmful content?

30:37Camilla: But you're surprising me because as a mum of six. Listen, my kids are 18, 19, 20. They've had social media. I can parent them. I've warned them about it. And I can take I used to take their phone away when they were young. And you know what, you got to trust parents. And I think I think it was Kemi Badnock who was on TV a while back saying, you know, well, she people just don't know about parental controls. There are parental controls. I don't think surveilling all of us is going to protect children. And I prosecuted, by the way, those online predators, those guys who groom and pretend their kids who said, I prosecuted.

31:10one guy and I watched the body worn video where they burst into his house he had 10 000 of the most horrific photos who like horrific and you know what he said when he walked in he said I know why you're here because I uh because I um I'm on a I'm on an incest group and I don't have children he thought that's why he was being arrested so these are parents who post stuff online disgusting things with their children but when you prosecute these guys they get a suspended sentence. They get released on bail for a year. They're not putting the guys away, but they're not curbing their freedom, but they've got no problem with curbing ours.

31:44And I think there should be mandatory sentencing for online grooming, but there isn't.

31:48Camilla: Amen to that. Of course there should be, but this isn't just about pernicious content, is it? It's also about mind numbing content because all of the scientific studies post 2010 on educational standards suggest that the advent of the smartphone has actually help to rewire children's brains. And then actually, you know, at the end of the day, even if you're not, heaven forbid, accessing really grotesque content or content that plays to an algorithm, if, for instance, you've got a mental health problem and it's pushing pro-suicide content to you, for instance, that is one very, very significant problem.

32:25Camilla: And of course, Molly Russell's father, Ian, has pointed to all that. This is also about kids just looking at a load of crap for hours on end. It's also about ed tech in schools. What happened to pen and paper? Why don't you just learn your times tables by heart rather than doing little competitions with pings and bells and whistles? Because no offence, but you guys sound old. Yeah. Yeah. You know, technology is here. We've got to teach kids to embrace it. There's no point in running away with it. And frankly, if I want my kids to scroll endlessly online and on mind numbing stuff, that's my choice.

32:59It's not up to the government to tell me what my children can watch online and what they can't. I'm a parent. I know exactly what needs to be done. Leila Cunningham, thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you. If we follow the logic of cynical gossips who say that reform has been spooked by Restore and is now adopting Restore-style policies, then are we finding ourselves in a position where Restore is dragging reform to the right, forcing it to make commitments that if it were to actually do them when in office would be as right-wing at least as Donald Trump. Yes, but also it's about whether or not these policy ideas

33:38Camilla: are going to be deliverable. Reform will implode, explode, whatever you want to call it, if Nigel Farage writes a load of checks that his party can't cash. At the end of the day, these policy ideas are going to have to require not just a tearing up of legislation, but really carefully drafted new legislation In order to pass those acts through the Houses of Parliament, you are going to have to have a stonking majority. And right now, what's the latest YouGov? They're on 24 reform. Labour and the Conservatives are tied on 19. The Greens are on 15. This doesn't give him a big enough majority to make these sweeping changes.

34:17Camilla: And he's going to find himself in some kind of Theresa May situation if his majority is only marginal. and everything he promises now and in a future manifesto can't actually be brought about, he's going to then look like the rest of them. This is a very good wonky point that people perhaps don't appreciate is that before you even get to the physical implementation of knocking on people's doors and dragging them out, you have to pass the primary legislation. Yes. And look at the failure of welfare reform under Labour to see, and that's with a massive majority, to see how surprisingly difficult that can be to do.

34:52But not only will people be asking if reform got in, is this feasible? They might also be asking, is it British? If in the defense of Britishness, they end up doing things like knocking on people's doors and dragging them away that we don't feel is particularly British. But having said that, I think they should be defended on this point that if you're going back to first principles, there is a logical consequence to those first principles. And there's something frustrating about the British. they all sit around saying, I'm sick of people taking the mick and claiming these benefits, living in these houses.

35:24And then here comes along a party that says, okay, I will actually do something about it. And they go, oh, because I'm British, I don't know if I like that.

35:33Camilla: Yeah, exactly. I wonder if I'd actually prefer to carry on with the slow decline that I was living with before. Yeah, because I don't want to be impolite to my foreign neighbours. Right. I think what reform is offering us is like tearing off the band-aid of the British social system. We're just going to rip it off. And for one or two years, it's comparable to say Margaret Thatcher's monetarist experiment in the early 80s. For one or two years, a lot of people lost their jobs. There were riots. It was awful. She was unpopular. But the long term consequence was inflation disappeared for almost a decade.

36:05Likewise, in this country, it didn't quite disappear. But likewise, in this country, it might be, as Donald Trump has done with the border in America, there is going to be a few years of people saying, I can't believe we're doing this. We've lost our way. We're not British anymore. But the consequence of it will be we've actually, within a generation, solved the problem of an insecure border.

36:24Camilla: So short-term pain for long-term gain. Well, maybe this is the analogy then. And this is the distinction between reform and restore. Reform want to rip off the plaster. Rupert Lowe wants to pour a load of salt into the wound. I think he wants to stick his finger in there. So take that. How's that feeling? I'm not sure. We'll discuss this more this week. I think we'll come back to this subject, but I honestly think something not fully explored yet is the distance between what Rupert Lowe personally believes and what many of his supporters think he believes. Because you can, and maybe I'll do it, you can find quotes from Rupert Lowe which could sound like a standard Tory.

37:04Camilla: From the 1990s. Right, just a standard Tory. I'm not sure he's quite as radical as people think he is. No, or as Elon Musk is making him out to be. It is, and that's a really interesting theme within the government's war on social media. I think you and I sympathise with protecting children against harmful content. I think this government also, in the long term, wants to wage war on what it regards as foreign interference in election campaigns. Well, as long as it's not waging war on right-wing commentary on its own performance. Well, and I think it confuses those two things. There are a lot of bots out there and there are a lot of hideous racists who say nasty things about people like Leila.

37:45But I think sometimes the left looks at any criticism of left wing ideas and just assumes that must be the product of a bot farm in deepest Magnitogorsk rather than actually the electorate just dislikes you.

37:59Camilla: Quite. So, yeah, we've got a busy week, haven't we? We're going to cover PMQs tomorrow. we're then going to do a pre-by-election Makerfield episode on Thursday featuring Nigel Farage and then we will be with you on Friday morning for a snap analysis of the by-election results so lots to look out for on The Daily Tea this week but we'll be back tomorrow 5pm

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