Reeves cries in PMQs after Labour’s welfare ‘clusterf---’

0:02The Telegraph.

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1:29Camilla: You'll have to excuse my French here, but it has been described as a clusterfuck of Godzilla proportions. Labour's welfare bill now lies in tatters. Yes, it's been passed, but there's nothing actually in it. And extraordinary scenes today as cabinet ministers have tried to justify a disaster for Keir Starmer and his own Chancellor, Rachel Reeves, looking tearful at prime minister's questions. And on the benefits theme, we'll also be speaking to Telegraph undercover reporter Janet Easton, who found out just how easy it is to obtain a sick note to take weeks and weeks and weeks off work with very little reason.

2:13Camilla: Welcome to The Daily Tea with me, Camilla Tominy.

2:27Before we get into my chat with Janet Easton, who went undercover and exposed a guy called Dr Sick, who is giving out sick notes on demand.

2:37Camilla: And you must listen to it because it's just extraordinary. Let's just quickly cover the last mad 24 hours for Labour. So we had the welfare bill go before Parliament again last night to be voted upon. there had been the rebellion. The Prime Minister had seen off the rebellion by suggesting a U-turn on some aspects of the bill. It had been intended to save£5 billion from a benefits bill that has ballooned by£86 billion in the last decade. So many had said at the time, look, it doesn't even really touch the sides. Whatever. It was meant to save£5 billion. Lots of backbenches kicked off. Labour have now got themselves into this extraordinary pickle which is where the cluster f Godzilla proportion comment comes from because a bill that was intended to cut benefits now isn't going to cut the benefits bill at all I think they've reduced that five billion pounds worth of savings down by 4.9 billion so it literally saves nothing and extraordinary scenes unfolded in the House of Commons last night after Stephen Timms, the Disability Minister, intervened and announced the personal independent payments, the PIP payments, the reforms to those, that was the central plank of this legislation, were being dropped.

3:57We've heard those concerns and that is why I can announce that we are going to remove the Clause 5 from the Bill Act Committee, that we will move straight to the wider review, sometimes referred to as the TIMS review, and only make changes to PIP eligibility activities and descriptors following that review.

4:27The government is committed to concluding the review by the autumn of next year.

4:35Point of order, Andy MacDonald. Madam Deputy Speaker, I'd be very grateful for your clarification. We've just heard that a pivotal part of this bill, Clause 5, is not going to be effective. So I ask the question, what are we supposed to be voting on tonight?

4:57Camilla: And that came after Liz Kendall, who's the Work and Pensions Secretary, had announced the reforms. By the way, they weren't in the manifesto, obviously. Nobody wants to be voting to have their benefits cut. But she even opened the debate saying this. This bill and our wider welfare reforms seek to fix the broken benefit system that we inherited from the party opposite and to deliver a better life for millions of people across our country. Our plans are rooted in principles and values I know many in this House share. compassion for those who need our help most a belief in equality and social justice that everyone should have the chance to fulfil their potential no matter where they're born or what their parents did and responsibility for our constituents and our country as a whole so we ensure the welfare state is sustainable and lasts for generations to come.

5:57Camilla: and then a few hours later the majority of those reforms had gone and tim and i had spoken in our episode about why it's been a year of hell for keir starmer and do listen to that that angela rayner is becoming an increasingly troublesome presence for the prime minister lo and behold the telegraph reports this morning that the deputy prime minister who let's be honest is more left wing it seems then keir starmer and the chancellor rachel reeves who we'll get onto in just a moment she was the one pushing the prime minister from behind the scenes she held hours of crunch talks with Labour MPs who were poised to vote against the legislation before a last-minute climb down by Sakhir we then had backbenchers like Rachel Maskell she's a leading Labour welfare rebel and she said this morning that the debate on the bill saw a change in power away from Sakhir as the legislation, quotes, disintegrated before our eyes.

6:54Camilla: I mean, that is what's happened. The welfare bill designed to reform welfare and cut welfare isn't doing anything. We then had the extraordinary spectacle of Pat McFadden. Now, this man is seen as a safe pair of hands within the cabinet. He's the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. So he's kind of, apart from Rainer, a sort of Starmer's other deputy, but not in name. He basically went on to the Today programme on Radio 4 and tried to argue that this was a good thing. There's a long history of this in the Labour Party. What, of ineffective leadership? No, of rebellions on welfare reform. I remember in the early days of the Blair government, one of almost an identical size, 47 Labour MPs voted against a welfare reform measure, 100 abstained.

7:47We had ministerial and PPS resignations. The BBC ran the headline, Blair suffers in benefits revolt. But we went on from there, not only to reform welfare, but to turn around the NHS, to reduce child poverty and do all the other things.

8:02Camilla: And then something very strange happened at Prime Minister's questions earlier, because the Chancellor, Rachel Reeves, did appear to be in tears. She seemed very upset. Now, we're still investigating this and it could actually have nothing to do with politics could be a personal matter and in that case of course we wish her and her family well but it probably didn't help when kemi badenock the leader of the opposition landed this blow this man has forgotten that his welfare bill was there to plug a black hole created by the Chancellor. Instead, they're creating new ones. They're creating new ones.

8:43She looks, Mr Speaker, she's pointing at me, she looks absolutely miserable. Labour MPs, Labour MPs, she looks absolutely miserable. Labour MPs, they can point as much as they like. The fact is, Labour MPs are going on the record saying that the Chancellor is toast. And the reality is that She is a human shield for his incompetence. In January, he said that she would be imposed till the next election. Will she really? Well, Madam Minister... She certainly won't. Mr Speaker, I have to say, I'm always cheered up when she asks me questions or responds to a statement because she always makes a complete mess of it and shows just how unserious and irrelevant they are.

9:30But she talks about the black hole. They left a£22 billion black hole in our economy, and we're clearing it up. And I'm really proud, I'm really proud, Mr Speaker, that in the first year of a Labour government, we've got free school meals, breakfast clubs, childcare, we've got£15 billion invested in transport in the North and the Midlands, with current regulation, planning and infrastructure is pounding forward, building 1.5 million homes, the biggest investment in social and affordable housing, and, of course, Mr Speaker, the three trade deals. Remember the ones that they couldn't get, including the US trade deal?

10:05On Monday, those tariffs came down. That secured the jobs at JLR. That's what we're a care about on this side of the house.

10:14Camilla: How awful for the Chancellor that he couldn't confirm that she would stay in place. Coming up, as promised, I'm going to be joined by my colleague Janet Easton, who went undercover in a Telegraph investigation to expose a suspended doctor selling sick notes on demand.

10:58From weaponry and military strategy to the reality of life in Russia and Ukraine, we follow the conflict from every angle. Listen daily, wherever you get your podcasts.

11:18Camilla: Ever wondered what has been fuelling Britain's sick note culture with the row over welfare continuing to dominate the headlines? Why are so many people reluctant to work and more importantly, how are they managing to wangle so much time off? A Telegraph investigation may provide some clues as our colleague Janet Easton went undercover to report on the inner workings of Dr Sick Limited, a suspended GP who is selling workers' sick notes on demand. Just how is he getting away with it? Janet, welcome to The Daily Tea. Thank you for having me on. Quite the journalistic endeavour this has been. So tell me, you have discovered that a suspended doctor is selling workers sick notes on demand without a consultation and for ailments, including, can't quite believe this, anxiety over a sick pet or even just wanting to go on holiday.

12:17Yes, I was surprised how far it could go. But essentially, it was a freelancer who brought in the story. A guy called Chris Middleton, he used to work with BBC. And he seen that this suspended doctor, Asif Munaf, that he was running a company called Dr Sick Limited, that was giving out these sick notes. And that obviously raises a few questions, because he's suspended, he shouldn't really be practicing as a doctor, he definitely shouldn't be. But in order to actually find out what was going on, you actually have to apply for the certificates. There's no other way to know. We weren't sure who was signing the certificates.

12:57We weren't sure what kind of ailments were being claimed for. And really, the only way to find out was to go undercover.

13:05Camilla: Very good. And actually, this speaks to a number of concerns when it comes to the welfare row that is still going on. We heard from Ian Duncan Smith earlier this week talking about how people were gaming the benefits system on the back of advice that they were receiving online, on social media, on TikTok and other people recording videos. This is how you do it. And if you get denied unemployment benefits or you moved off the dole, your next step is to claim sickness. This is how you do it and all the rest of it. Now, in this case, you're actually talking about people having to get the sick note to get the time off work.

13:41Camilla: Let's be quite specific because is this just to give to an employer or is it actually to claim benefits on the back of it? So my understanding is it's just to give to an employer but I actually also spoke to Helen Waitley who is Shadow Department of Work and Pensions Secretary and one of the concerns she raised to me is that this is sort of preliminary evidence that might then also be used in the process of applying for benefits at a later stage. Sure. Once you've registered with a doctor, I've got an ailment. It adds up in terms of the medical evidence. It could add up. One of the concerns she raised with me when I told her about this investigation.

14:16But no, this is the specific immediate usage of these documents is to get, apparently according to the website, up to six weeks off. Although it transpired from my investigation that they sort of accidentally gave us five months off as well. It's worth mentioning who is at the helm of Dr Sick.

14:34Camilla: At this point, you've mentioned his name already, Asif Munaf. Now, this guy has a degree of fame or notoriety, doesn't he? Because he was once on The Apprentice. Yes, which I'd actually watched The Apprentice, so this came as a bit of a surprise to me. I mean, when the freelancer Chris came in with this story, I don't think we really knew why he'd been suspended, so I just sort of Googled his name. and the first thing that came up was the fact that Mr Munaf had been on The Apprentice. Let's just see how he described himself on The Apprentice. I've written it down. Beauty, brains, body and business is how Asif proudly describes himself on his CV, says the website.

15:13Camilla: A doctor with a business plan focused on healthy vitamins and supplements, Asif may need more than the four B's to win Lord Sugar's investment. Now I'm thinking about a B to encapsulate Mr Munaf and it certainly isn't beauty, brains, body or business. But continue, please, Janet. Yes. So he made quite an impact, I think, on The Apprentice. And it was during the spin-off show that some of his tweets came to the attention of the producers at the BBC, which were very anti-Semitic. And it seems like he got training while at the BBC, sort of awareness training, to help him understand why these tweets were offensive.

15:55Right. It seemed that didn't work. And they ultimately edited him out of the spin-off, The Apprentice Your Fired show, the one that comes after the sort of main show. And it was at that point that he was suspended from the medical register. OK. Temporarily.

16:09Camilla: So we'll get into his anti-Semitism a little later. He's suspended from the register, but he's still calling himself Doctor. Yes. The company is Doctor Sick Limited, which, I mean, it has its own connotations really anyway, doesn't it? Yeah. And I mean, that was something that was sort of picked up a bit by some of the customers on the Trustpilot reviews, which I saw before we did the kind of full investigation, is that people started saying, it doesn't look awfully authentic. It sounds questionable. Yes. And yes, he is referring to himself as a doctor and listing his medical credentials online on his websites, which is a problem for him, actually, because there is legislation around this.

16:48And if you are suspended, you're counted under the Medical Act as not a doctor. Yes. And if you're not a doctor, you can't pretend to be a medical doctor. So he legitimately qualified in medicine? He did, yes. He's been actually only just suspended. So there's an ongoing investigation. And during the suspension, you cannot legally practice as a doctor and you also shouldn't be presenting yourself as a medical doctor.

17:11Camilla: Understood. So tell me how you went undercover. What happened? Well, to be honest, going undercover is not as simple as people might think it is. And maybe that's reassuring for the public to know, is that you need to have quite a bit of evidence of significant wrongdoing in order to even be contemplating going undercover. And it also has to be the case that the only way to get the information would be to go undercover. Is that according to the Independent Press Standards Organisation's code of practice? Why are you saying that? Yes, it is. I mean, I think every company that is regulated by EPSO has their own policy on this because any kind of journalism that might involve a degree of essentially not disclosing who you are needs a high level of sign-off yes there needs to be a strong public interest yeah and it needs to be the case that the only way that you could find out this information would be by going undercover understood so once you've realized you'd met that barb how did you go about it so for the first application i decided to choose a big big employer and quite a common mail name okay and decided to apply for what was i thought just quite a sort of a legitimate complaint but something that does need to actually be tested it does need to be proven so the first thing i did was just to make an application saying you know i've tested positive with a lateral flow test for covid right i like two weeks off work and i said here are my symptoms you know i'm feeling hot sore throat cough no fever and then i applied for the certificate it's all online and they didn't even ask for your age I ticked a box to say I'd not spoken to my GP I'd not gone to A &E there was no requirement for the certificate to then be sent to your doctor who then might verify it there was no ID verification stage so some online medical stuff that you might do through sort of boots for example you need to upload an ID and a selfie and even if you use an online pharmacy yes you've got to jump through a huge amount of hoops before they'll even entertain the idea of giving you prescription medication for instance but in this case not many hoops to jump through at all no I think it was just more than 20 words describing your symptoms was the requirement right and then you had to say the how many days you wandered off and tick a few boxes but the ones that I ticked said that I hadn't you know hadn't spoken to my GP hadn't seen any doctors and obviously you don't need to upload a test result or anything like that so whoever is signing the certificate has no way of knowing that I actually have COVID.

19:40Because actually, although the prices do start at£29, but that's actually for an unlimited monthly subscription, which gives you unlimited access to sick notes. What? Yeah. I mean, hang on, let's just break that down. Why would you need unlimited access to sick notes? Yeah. I mean, you would have to be quite sick by that point if that is actually how ill you are, at which point you probably should be seeing a real doctor in person.

20:05Camilla: Yes, because basically it's suggesting that it's a licence to get sick notes. And if you were genuinely ill, then you would genuinely want to see a GP to literally find out, A, what's wrong, B, why you can't seem to get better. So already this is ringing alarm bells in my head because it seems to me to be designed for people that want to have sick notes with no accountability whatsoever. Yeah, and actually that option was sold out. The unlimited one. Unlimited option was sold out. Basically, so instead of that, you buy a one-off certificate. So actually for a two-hour turnaround, it's£70 to£80, which I felt was a bit steep.

20:43So I went for the four-hour turnaround that was more like£64. And indeed, within four hours, the certificate arrived. And the first thing, and it was Chris Middleton, the freelancer, that noticed this, was that I'd been granted it for five months, not the requested two weeks.

21:01Camilla: As you speak, I'm looking at the certificate that was issued now. It's got Dr Sick at the top. It's got a QR code in the corner. It's got the address of the company. It's got a reference full name and the date. It's got the name of the GP. And then it simply says, having reviewed the medical history and current symptoms of X, I have deemed them unfit for work. This is due to significant COVID positive chorizal symptoms with cough fever and pharyngitis, which is impacting their ability to perform their work duties. Accordingly, we have advised them to take time off from the 27th of the 6th, 2025 to the 7th of the 11th, 2025.

21:42Camilla: That's five months. That's generous. Yeah. Kindly accept this notice confirmation of their sickness during this time. But sorry, do HR departments have to accept this? So in the reviews online, there are quite a few people that posted there saying, yeah this did work I said I submitted it this worked there were some who'd said they had had issues and I think those that had issues their employers had looked at the note and gone this looks a bit fishy yes but they were in the minority to be honest but drsick.co.uk yes kind of looks like it could be like the domain name for some kind of rap band or something yeah right so you You get signed off for five months when you've only asked for two weeks.

22:26Yes. And also, actually, a minor point, but I actually made the point of saying in the application that I didn't have a fever. And he's or she has given me a fever in that. Yes. It's talking it up, you know, which I kind of noticed and thought, OK. All right. Talk me through who else you posed as. Well, then we posed as a nursery school teacher with a sick dog. so I thought it would be interesting to see whether or not Dr Sick Limited would grant a sick note for essentially someone who is anxious about their pet so anxious in fact that they now need to spend the next six weeks at home with the sick dog and to be honest if I if I would hope that a doctor looking at that would think well this person might actually be need to be seen because they're actually so if you're that anxious really that you might not be able to leave your house because of your dog's illness, which is really sad, but is not a reason to not work.

23:21That's kind of a whole other issue. But no, I was getting close to my deadline, so I put for a two-hour turnaround on this one. And yeah, it came back, I think, even before the two-hour deadline.

23:33Camilla: I'm just reading the certificate here. So it doesn't specify that it's about a dog. No, it doesn't. But it does say that you need to be signed off unfit for work due to, quote, significant distress following recent personal events with difficulty concentrating and sleeping impacting their ability to perform their work duties. And on this one, they actually grant you a bit more of a modest period of time off. 27th of the 6th, 2025 to the 8th of the 7th. Yes. So that's around two weeks. Yes. But maybe it wouldn't have been appropriate to apply for more, for anxiety around a pet. Yes, I think arguably not, yes.

24:19Camilla: And then tell me what happened, you used your real name in the final run. Well, yeah, I sort of thought, well, you know, let's see how far we can go with this. I kind of noticed that something that we would have thought would have been rejected, which is anxiety about a pet, had not been rejected. And I thought, kind of let loose, really, and just sort of put it. I am actually going on holiday to Malta on Saturday. So, you know, basically in this application, I said, you know, my name is Janet Easton. I work for the Telegraph Media Group. I work these shifts. I travel on a hot and sweaty tube every morning.

24:52I think I could really do with a holiday. And I basically said, please, can I have a month to work from home? But I was very explicit in my application in saying I'm going to use this to go on holiday. But please don't put that on the certificates. I think you can probably see.

25:06Camilla: OK, so you say, I'm going to just quote you. To be honest, I need this adjustment because I want to join my friends on holiday in Malta next month. But please don't put that on the certificate. The request was approved within an hour. And again, as requested, the person signing off the certificate did not mention that I was claiming that I would be misusing the certificate to go on holiday. So you've really laid it out there. You have said to them, I am lying. I don't want to use up my holiday. I want to claim this time off as sick. this is the letter that they then provide for you having reviewed the medical history and current symptoms of janet easton i have deemed them unfit for work in their current capacity this is due to significant stress and heat exhaustion with difficulty focusing from the recent hot weather which is impacting their ability to perform their duties accordingly we have advised them to rest and recover by working from home to avoid the heat and humidity on the London Underground, kindly accept this certificate as confirmation of their needs for adjustments.

26:09Camilla: So you're going to get the adjustment on the basis of this letter for working from home. But then I also note that they've put a period of a start date here of July the 7th and an end date of the 8th of August. So yeah, that's a whole month. I mean, part of me looks at this story and thinks, well, if the system's there to be gamed, how can you blame people for doing it but then when you think of the ramifications of this well for big businesses but particularly small businesses to have people supplying sick notes to employers when they're not even ill and having paid time off for nothing sanctioned by a medical professional albeit now suspended there's something exceptionally dodgy about the whole thing and and how many people do we think are at this i mean this is brazen yeah are there lots of places where you can just go online and get sick notes there are a couple of competitors to dr sick i haven't investigated them myself personally what drew us to this particular website was the fact that we knew that the sole director of the company was himself suspended um but i don't think that he is alone in running online sick note operations which yeah suggests the scalars could be even even wider and yeah but they're quite powerful these certificates aren't they all three certificates were signed off by a gmc registered doctor who is employed by a major staffing agency used by lots of nhs trusts so not mr munaf himself because as you say he's been suspended they contain the doctor's gmc number and purportedly his signature yes so i mean this is the ongoing mystery of this case because I contacted the staffing agency that employs the doctor who had purportedly signed off these certificates.

28:03They spoke to their employee who was a hospital doctor not a GP who works in an NHS hospital and they said look our employee we've spoken to him like we've shown him the certificates he has said absolutely he'd never heard of Dr Sick Limited He wouldn't do this kind of work because of the kind of specialty he does. He has no experience in GP. He's never seen them before. He's never done any work for this company. And I put that to Mr. Munaf because that seems to be a discrepancy there. Yes. And he has yet to respond to that point. What we can say is that we don't know who's signing these certificates.

28:44That in itself is extraordinary.

28:45Camilla: it's quite difficult at this point to say what's gone on here. We've got certificates signed by someone denying they've signed the certificates and as you say, Janet, you're awaiting a response from Mr Munaf. Yes, he responded to every other allegation that I put to him. OK. The one thing he did say is he has said that he doesn't sign off the certificates. But when I put to him that the doctor who is named on the certificates has also said they haven't signed off the certificates. He didn't respond to that. He responded to everything else, though, which sort of is interesting. And he chose to respond to my email to him by posting on X.

29:29So he says that he has five fully employed GMC-registered doctors who sign off the sick notes. Right. He has said they follow HIPAA-aligned sort of guidelines. What HIPAA? That is US health data legislations. That's totally irrelevant. Okay. He correctly says that the company is registered with the ICO. It is registered with the ICO. The Information Commissioner's Office. Yeah, exactly. But I also put to him the fact that he was offering online medical consultations via Dr. Sick, which is something that if you are a suspended doctor, you definitely should not be doing. Yes. He took down that web page.

30:07Right. Of late, his defence has been more that this is kind of really just responding to the market, that basically people are willing to buy these certificates so he should be allowed to sell them.

30:17Camilla: Yeah, it's like nothing's stopping me from doing this, so it's OK. Yeah. Is there anything stopping him from doing it? I suppose this is the most serious question of all, really, Janet. Why is there nothing stopping this man from doing this? Is there anything stopping him from doing this? Well, so far there hasn't been. And I think the public should be very concerned that this is carrying on. So we know the doctor's regulator is investigating him. So that's the General Medical Council. Right. And we know that because I went to them. So we know that they're looking at him and all his businesses.

30:50We know he was initially suspended for his antithioretic remarks. There was a period of time where he was allowed to practice again with restrictions. We don't know what those were. And then he was suspended again more recently. So I suppose as a journalist and as a member of a concerned public, You can only hope that they will be doing their job and that this kind of practice won't be allowed to continue. Yes.

31:15Camilla: OK, so the GMC are investigating. What can we say about the wider piece, though? Because clearly this is raising huge concerns about sick note culture. By the way, there's also a public safety issue here, isn't there, Janet? Because we may have some people just trying to game the system, but we may have others who are just a bit desperate. and actually really either need medical assistance or mental health assistance. That's what worries me here. And they're giving money to some complete random who isn't showing any real care for their actual symptoms if they do exist. There could be some people who don't have any symptoms, they just want to get a sick note.

31:58Camilla: There could be others who have genuine symptoms that are desperate. They can't get in to see their GP. This isn't helping. No, and because it's not linked back to their GP, their GP is never going to know. Let's just end with the Trustpilot situation. Yes. So you mentioned it earlier because obviously people will know whether or not they should go to Dr Sick. They will be judging, do the sick notes work? And you're saying that some of the reviews on Trustpilot are yes and some of them are no. Yeah, so when I wrote the article, he had a Trustpilot average of, I think, 3.3. Out of five, not bad.

32:31But it was quite extreme. Some people were saying this really worked for me. And some people were saying, I think the word scam was used. I think people found that the notes didn't look awfully legitimate. But since then, it's sort of accelerated in the ratings. I think it's now nearly a five-star review. And I think, I mean, fundamentally, this is a story about a suspended doctor who is selling sick notes to people without the right checks and balances in place, potentially putting people at risk if they're unwell, and also sort of fueling the productivity crisis in our country. Janet, great work.

33:07Camilla: You'll be watching this closely, I'm sure. You'll be following the GMC investigation and we would like to catch up with you again should you get any developments on this story and we will put your whole investigation in our show notes so that people can read exactly what you've written. Do you have any experience of this? What do you think of Britain's sick note culture? Do get in touch. It's thedailytea at telegraph.co.uk or via our socials, X Instagram or TikTok. Just make sure that your messages on our social media channels are nicer than those posted by Asif Manaf. Janet, thank you.

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