Reform’s women rally round Nigel Farage: ‘He was set up!’

0:02The Telegraph.

0:35Thank you.

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1:22It's day two of the Reform Conference in Birmingham, and we're going to be speaking to the women of the party. We are honoured to be joined by Nadine Dorries, by Sarah Pochin and by Leila Cunningham. Welcome to The Daily Tea with me, Camilla Tominey. And me, Tim Stanley. These attacks will keep coming. Everybody is attacking reform. It used to be the Conservative Party and the Labour Party attacking each other. There is this cosy consensus now that they don't. And I think that also extends to Restore. I think Restore, the Conservative Party, Labour, that they've all got one enemy and that is Nigel Farage.

1:55and you know it's it's unprecedented it is unprecedented i don't think i've ever seen any political leader have to go through what nigel farad is not only going through but will go through times 100 moving forward

2:20wonderful a round of applause if you will

2:27absolute prize i have just been told off by a reform party member for on this podcast not talking about wales enough nadine have you got something to say about wales so we can get that out of the way beautiful beautiful country actually we went there for our holidays when i was a kid oh colwyn bay rill yeah i love north wales love triada bay well that's when i first had my first kiss and trial debate we're going to be oh okay we could spend half an hour on that we could do do you remember yeah his name was was it john stevens oh he worked for british rail yeah

3:05always travel first class indeed so um nadine we was too much information we will get on to uh all sorts of policy and other matters in just a moment but we do need to ask you about the Channel 4 stroke verbatim investigation from last night. It has resulted in the resignations of James Orr and Dan Dukes. Nigel Farage was on the broadcast round this morning and I'm sure we'll continue to talk about it today when asked, saying, listen, there's nothing to see here. And this was a couple of consultants who have now been let go of, but we know how close he was particularly to Dan Jukes this is a blow right oh look there's no doubt that it's a blow obviously it's a blow but if I could just make like just a succession of small points on this because I think it's important everybody knows this and understands it because even coming here in the car myself earlier this morning listening to um LBC news I heard a story that I just know isn't true.

4:05So first of all, I think the most important point to make is, and what some people are saying is, well, you know, isn't them, obviously, these guys were a pair of global climate change activists. It was a sting. The party has taken no money. But, you know, if the poll was paid for, then it would have been right to declare it. So my first point is, reform commissioned no poll. If reform had commissioned a poll that these people had paid for, then it would have been declared. What reform did, the most they did, was introduce the donor to, I think it's a jail partners, the polling company. They did it.

4:46It wasn't commissioned by reform. Now, lots of parties commission reforms, sorry, polls all the time. The Conservative Party did it regular and regular basis and quite often that's paid for by by people from abroad and in the UK it's the declaration that's the issue but you have to have commissioned the poll and Reform UK did not in fact they were kind of stood back from it slightly so they didn't commission that poll the other point is this no money from abroad has gone into any bank account owned by Reform and Nigel Farage was completely unaware that any discussions were even taking place initially.

5:26He knew he had fire a meeting that they were going to do a pay for a poll and that was fine. I think his word was boom, bam, that's fine. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But what this is, is it's a sting. And you know, I've made this point this morning. Nigel Farage is public enemy number one to the Conservative Party, the Labour Party, who no longer attack each other, they just attack reform, the Liberal Democrats, the Green Party, and most of the establishment. Because there has been a very cozy consensus for 100 years in Westminster that there's just two parties, and there is a whole network of individuals around these two parties.

6:05You know, the reason why you see people like David Cameron and Michael Gove and others prepping the life out of Kemi Bettenock every time she does PMQs or does a major speech is because these people, this is their life's work, the Conservative Party, and they don't want to lose it. Nobody wants reform, the emerging party to take control. And, you know, I hate to quote Dominic Cummings, but I'm going to have to. You know, it was him who originally said they will throw everything at Nigel Farage. They will expose bank accounts. They will throw the kitchen sink at him to try and get rid of him because he is a genuine threat.

6:47And what you've seen with this story is just yet another sting. By the way, this company of Abatum, using these two climate change activists, which Channel 4 bought the package from, it was also Channel 4 who paid an actor two years ago at the Clacton by-election to do another sting on Nigel Farage. But these stings will keep coming. These attacks will keep coming. Everybody is attacking reform. It used to be the Conservative Party and the Labour Party attacking each other. There is this cosy consensus now that they don't. And I think that also extends to Restore. I think Restore, the Conservative Party, Labour, that they've all got one enemy, and that is Nigel Farage.

7:29And, you know, it's unprecedented. It is unprecedented. I don't think I've ever seen any political leader have to go through what Nigel Farage is not only going through, but will go through times 100 moving forward. I've been with political leaders going back to the days of Ian Duncan Smith, Michael Howard David Cameron, Theresa May Boris Johnson did I miss anybody out from my party? I've been there throughout it all and I've been in Westminster for 25 years and seen it all and nobody, Tony Blair, Gordon Brown no leader has had to go through quite the degree of attack that Nigel Farage has gone through and will continue to go through.

8:15And it's going to be tough, but what he's going to need is for every reform party member to stand strong with him because if those people who come from the Conservative Party or the Labour Party into reform feel that they are risk-averse and want to go back to the party they supported originally, then you're doing the wrong thing and making the wrong choice because reform is the only party that is going to protect our country, the interest of our citizens, and to do what's best for the country. And we need everybody to continue to support us to get there and do that. Now, the counter-argument will be that reform is only susceptible to these sorts of stings because, it appeared in that film, they were willing to entertain taking the money.

9:05The fact that two people have resigned will be seen by some voters as an admission of guilt. The fact that in one section of the film, Dan Dukes appears to give a list of names of people who also donate. We don't know the conditions or who they are, but that suggests that maybe this is the tip of an iceberg. What do you say to those critics who say, look, this is because, I know this will sound silly in a room full of thousands of people, but it's an astroturf party, which is reliant upon, well, is willing to take foreign money because it doesn't really have a necessary financial base of support within this country.

9:42Well, actually, it does have a huge financial base of support in this country, as the figures show and the donors show. But to correct your point, which I think was quite a dangerous point almost, Tim, reform, because you were implying that what reform do is illegal, reform has taken no foreign money. We have a whole legal process in place. It would be political suicide for any party to take foreign donations. Political suicide. It is illegal. Yes, I know, but you take my point that in the film, we appear to see... So let me take that point. People representing the party being willing to take them.

10:20No, no, no, no. So, OK, I'm going to cut just a little bit of slack here to both Dan and James, I think. We are in the party. We are 18 months. new party. There are people working in the party who may not be fully aware or appraised of the legality of the rules. But let me tell you this, if Dan, in his naivety, and James did entertain conversations, the moment those donations came to be made and went into the process, which is a legal process, those donations would have been rejected. Now, I think there are... I was going to say on that point, Dan Dukes has been involved in the party and involved with Nigel Farage for a very long time.

11:06He's been involved with Nigel Farage. In the documentary, James Orr describes himself as actually having a lead on donations and finance raising. That's how he describes himself. But, Tim, you know, people... He doesn't understand how it should be done. Again, if the charge isn't that you're willing to take foreign money, the charge could be therefore one of amateurism. So the amateurism one, that's quite a bled point because, as I said, it is a new party. Dan has been with Nigel since he was a boy and kind of like a sidekick to Nigel, but not involved in the process of more somebody who carries Nigel's bag and organises his car and the media.

11:43He says in the film that you're talking to the future chief of staff, to a future prime minister. That's how he's presenting. I think that was Dan getting carried away with himself, I'm afraid. Possibly not for the first time. Let's leave that there. But can I just say the final point on that is, though, that the party has and the Electoral Commission have a legal process which is overseen by lawyers. Any money that comes into reform goes through that legal process overseen by lawyers, and if there is anything wrong with that process, if the donor is not an appropriate donor, the money is not accepted.

12:20I'm sure there may be people who've tried. I know there are certainly people who tried with the Conservative Party, but if they do, and the Conservative Party had the same process in place, all parties do, no foreign money has come to reform. Reform have commissioned no polls using foreign money. They are the two substantive points. All right, let's park back there for now, because we've got plenty more to talk to you about. We haven't got that much time. Clear something up for us, though. Nick Candy, the treasurer of the party, said to us yesterday that Kemi Babenog asked Boris Johnson to stand against Nigel Farage in Clacton.

12:54The Tories have described this claim as complete and utter nonsense. You know Boris well. What's the truth of the matter? Nonsense. It's nonsense. What's Candy playing at telling us that yesterday? No, Nick's not lying. Somebody's told Nick a story. Okay. And Nick's believed them. He's probably felt they've been a legitimate source. It's nonsense. Okay. Boris Johnson. I haven't discussed it with Boris, by the way. Did you ever discuss him coming across to reform? That's a yes. It's never. No, no, I laugh because the idea of that is just ridiculous. The idea is just, you know, I don't even know why journalists even pose the question.

13:31Sorry, that's not to you, Camilla. Just because she laughs, actually. No, because I laugh at how ridiculous it is. There is no way Boris Johnson would ever join reform. There is no way Nigel Farage would ever join the Conservative Party. It's just a nonsense. In your former Tory guise, you obviously still have friends within the movement and you appreciate that from the telegraphian point of view, there's a frustration here. And it's illustrated by the latest scandal, because I think most people in this room obviously were in a reform friendly and adjacent room. But most righties in the country simply want to end this Labour government and not have another Labour government or, God forbid, something even worse, some kind of lab-lib-green coalition of chaos, axis of evil, socialist evil.

14:21and therefore they're getting pretty frustrated with reform attacking the Conservatives and Conservatives attacking reform. Not least because if you go by the current polling numbers, your party does not have enough right now to form a majority. You might have to do a deal and I know you don't like talking about deals. Oh, we can't talk about it before the election. I'm not bothered about talking about deals. Okay, can we talk about deals then? Because if your number continues to start with a two, you're going to need Badenock's help. Therefore, what is the sense in Farage continuing along with you and others in attacking the Conservatives?

14:56You all used to be one. Camille's going to need our help. You've got that the wrong way round. Camille's going to need our help. Not if you've got nearly enough numbers that you need the Tories to carry you over the 326 threshold. That's what the electoral maths is saying right now. And I'm not sure last night has helped your chances. Well, I'm disappointed to discover, Camille, that you don't read any of my columns at the Daily Mail. I do read your column in the Daily Mail. Tuesday, Mail, and that. So I know where's the graph passed, but I'm really disappointed. Know your enemy has always been my motto.

15:30Go on. Don't think we're enemies always. I mean rivals in the newspapers. So I've always been, I've always known that the right has to unite. You know, you described it as an axis of evil. I'll probably write that in my next column, actually. I'll pinch that. because Labour and Greens, they probably wouldn't even need it. And look at the cosiness that was going on between the patheticness of a leader, Leader Ed Davey of the Liberal Democrats, and Andy Burnham at the moment, that cosy consensus that was building between the two of them. And even Polanski's openly saying, I think we could work with Labour, that would be an axis of evil.

16:10I mean, literally the last person, if the country, please switch the lights off if that happens, because I think most of us will be out somewhere. It's too appalling a prospect to think of. And I've always been, Jacob Rees-Gogg and myself, I think Jacob was the original. I was probably the number two original. Unite the right. We have to, the right, and this is a problem because the right has never been so divided and the left has never been so united. And that is a massive problem. While the left are coalescing together and coming closer together in their cosy little consensus, we are dividing further apart.

16:50Now, I happen to think, and I happen to believe, and maybe I might know, that the Conservative Party are working quite closely with Restore and with Rupert Lowe. And because there's only one thing Rupert Lowe wants, and that's a peerage. And I think that they're working quite closely together. In what regard? Are we talking about them giving him that place on the select committee? He's a deep place on the select committee. You will never hear Rupert Lowe and Kemi, Batenock attack each other ever. I think, and I know from my own sources, you mentioned that I've got friends within the Conservative Party.

17:21The most astounding thing to me that happened when I defected from the Conservative Party to reform, and was quite rude about the Conservative Party at the time because I know a lot about it, was how many people within the Conservative Party supported me. And I think we can almost say with certainty that the Conservative Party and Restore are working quite closely together. And that's because Nigel is public enemy number one. He's that to restore and he is that to the Conservatives. And so they probably think that if they unite the right together, the two of them at some stage in the future, they can cut out reform.

18:00And that is never going to happen. And what we need to do moving forward as a party is to kind of expose that, I think, to a degree. that consensus that's building again and the reasoning behind it and to demonstrate why we are the only party that, you know, Nigel Farage, I say this all the time, has been saying the same thing for 30 years. He is, you cannot doubt his authenticity or his principle, whereas leaders of the other parties, they will shift whichever way they think is going to suit them at the particular time or their backbench MPs are pushing them. And any political leader is only as strong as their backbenchers will allow them to be.

18:49So Kemi Bandhanok will talk a talk. She will never walk the walk because three quarters of her backbench MPs are to the left of centre. They are remainers. They will never let her do, leave the ACHR, the Conservative Party, it would never happen because the MPs would very clearly make it known to Kemi they've removed leaders before and they would remove her again if she tried and she knows that and you know you will never see Andy Burnham cut welfare spending you will never see him cut taxes you'll never see him cut public spending because his backbench MPs won't allow him to because they would probably remove him if he did the difference between those political leaders and Nigel Farage is this.

19:34MPs behind Nigel Farage support him. Party members support him because we know he is the real deal. He's the man who took reform to the 20, 30 plus in the polls that we've seen. He's the man who says the same thing consistently over and over again. And there is no doubt with the 100-day package that he's launched at conference today, there is no doubt that he will deliver that because nobody will be elected to be a Reform MP without committing to vote for and support all of those policies and to work seven days a week to deliver them. So what we have to hope is that our risk-averse general public, because the polling shows we are quite risk-averse, will realise what's happening and will continue to support reform.

20:26And I think over time that's what they'll see and that's what they'll do. I'm interested in what you say there. Are you saying that reform, when it's selecting candidates, is giving them a checklist of things they must agree to support? Only candidates who will support what Nigel Farage has been talking about for 30 years, who will support the reform policy agenda as it stands today in this first 100 days. We're not going to be like the Conservatives. We're not going to say, oh, we're a broad church. If you're a hardline Remainer, if you want to see welfare spending increase, if you're soft on immigration, you can still come in because we're a broad church.

21:02Reform is not a broad church. Reform is a party that wants to cut immigration, that wants to stop the boats, that wants to cut welfare spending, that wants to increase defence spending, that wants to deliver for the people of Britain, make Britain a secure place again, and protect Britain. Now, if you're coming to reform to be a candidate and you don't believe in any of those principles, then you probably won't get through the selection process. Okay. This is billed as a Women of Reform event, and we want to take the challenges and issues facing women very seriously. So I do want to ask, do you think Andy Burnham is good-looking?

21:36Well, I've known Andy Burnham since he was a boy. You know, I'll tell you a little known fact. Going back to Wales. Andy Burnham, no, but Andy Burnham told me something I didn't know about my family. Okay. In my first week. And so I knew there was this like family secret about my great grandfather and something to do with football and I didn't know what it was. And Andy Burnham walked up to me and went, do you know your great grandfather was one of the founders of Everton Football Club? And I said, ooh. And he's in the official blue book. and the first chapter of the book, there's a big section on him.

22:09Did you know that? And I said, no, I did not. It's always been like hush, hush. And he said, I'll bring it in for you. And he did. So a nice man, a personable man. So I've always said this about Eyelashes Andy. Eyelashes Andy is a nice guy. I've known him for a long time, 20 years, 25 years. He's a nice bloke. But he's not a man of substance. and he's not a man who, and I hate saying this about him, but he doesn't have the ability to, or the support in his party, to deliver real change. And I think we saw exactly who Andy is on Monday and at Prime Minister's questions when he made his statement and he was at PMQs.

22:54It was all about the vibes. It was all about the laughs. It was all about very slow delivery and very long questions and very long answers, but none of it was about substance because he cannot say the things that need to be said to lead our country into a better place. He can't say, I'm going to cut welfare spending. He can't say, I'm going to cut taxes. He can't say, I'm going to increase defence spending to 3 % very quickly, which is what this country needs to keep it safe. He can't say any of those things. And the markets have reacted this week in exactly the way anyone would expect them to react, particularly in terms of guilt.

23:34And you don't think Number 10 North shifts the political dynamic in the Red Wall? Absolutely not at all, no. I mean, where he's based... I mean, if he's depending on people to vote for him for the vibes and because he's a nice guy, and if that's why people vote for Andy Burnham and Labour, then people deserve the government they get. Because I would say you need to vote for somebody and a party who are going to deliver what you need to address the economic problems we have coming down the lines in this country, particularly on the mortgage increases that we're going to face between now and next February, particularly on the problems that we're facing from Putin and the soft warfare which is taking place already, particularly on welfare spending, which is spiralling out of control and is going to end up needing the UK to borrow more money just to meet our welfare bill, which is going to put us in an even worse economic position.

24:28If people don't care about that and they're just going to vote for a nice guy, then they really will get the government they deserve. I think they should vote reform because I think those problems affect not only them, but their children and their families and the future of this country. And that's fundamental. Our second reform woman is here. We thank you very much. Can we have a round of applause, please, for Nadine Doris? Thank you. Thank you, Nadine. Thanks, both. Thank you.

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27:08Sarah Pochin is just about ready to join us on stage. Come on board, Sarah Pochin. the reform MP of course for Runcorn and Helmsby lovely to see you hello hello hello hello hello I realize I should stand up but I'm all wired up first quick question we've got Nadine to do the defense of reform in the face of the channel 4 and verbatim investigation so let's not go there not least because this podcast is going out on Sunday and maybe fish and chip paper by then but let's hope so are you sad to see Dan Jukes and James all go look um what I can see that's happened of the last few hours is that we've had a sting operation by a far-left organisation that have a track record at doing this sort of thing.

27:51And, of course, we know, don't we, that the night before a conference, most political parties are just waiting for that grenade, and here we are. We had ours. But, you know, they should be ashamed of themselves, quite frankly. It looks like entrapment. This is a bit of a bloke's party, isn't it? Let's be honest. I was listening to... I know he's joking. I do find Lee Anderson very funny. But in the speech, he was just delivering. He went through all the MPs and he said, I suppose I'd better mention Sarah Pochin. She irons my shirts. I'm much better with an iron than Sarah is. So Lee irons, that's a good thing.

28:29I'm not sure he does, actually, the state of it, when I had to take over. Well, he says, I'm much better with an iron than Sarah is. Check out her outfit. It's a mess. Now, it's not. Honestly. Now, I know he's joking and it's a non-PC party and we're sick of woke one and all that sort of thing. But there are some people from the outside who would look in and say, it is a lot of blokes, including blokes making silly mistakes like Dan Jukes and James Orr. Where are all the women? Well, quite. You're looking at her. But, you know, the point is, my speech... I've heard someone say, I'm one. I'm one.

29:06Exactly. I tell you what we do know. We do know who is a woman and who is a man. There we go. At least we can tell the difference. At least we can tell the difference. We certainly do. But, yeah, look, joking aside, my speech this afternoon at quarter past three is all about the equality and safety of women and girls at the moment in this country and the situation that we're in. And, in fact, at 6 o 'clock tonight, you're all very welcome to come to the launch of Women for Reform. So we have finally got to the point where we are launching that special interest group. And it's entirely about having a platform and a mechanism to listen to what's important to women of all ages in order that we can feed into our policy team ideas and important issues that reflect what will help women, like I said, at all ages in their lives.

30:06So, for example, you know, I asked, I've got two young boys, two men, I should say they're 25 now, my sons. I still call them my young boys. But so they've got one's got a young wife, one's got a young girlfriend. And I talk to them about what young women are saying about reform and how reform is resonating with them. So it's a great window, actually, into what young women are thinking. and so for example you know I said to them what you know what kind of policy ideas would you like to see they're starting to have children I've got my first grandchild appearing hopefully in about two weeks they're starting to have children so they're juggling you know businesses working and and being mums you know and one of them said wouldn't it be great to have tax deductible child care for example you know and so I fed that into I did ask Robert if I could announce that he said, oh, hang on a minute.

31:03I'm not sure I've costed that one. But joking aside, that is exactly what we want to hear and what we want to consider inside the policy team. At the other end of the scale, I had an older, much older woman come into a surgery of mine. And she was talking about how difficult it is. She got divorced at perhaps the age of 60. She'd been married to her husband for 30 odd years, everything was in his name. The bank accounts were joint, all the bills. She didn't even have a utility bill in her own name. He paid for her phone bill and everything. And do you know what? When they separated, she was totally almost disabled, you know, in terms of not being able to pay for solicitors, and she just had nothing.

31:47And that's a very, at the other end of the spectrum, that's another interesting thing to consider. Should we be looking at ways in which women can actually get divorced at the age of 60 without it being a huge problem for them financially things like that so I get all sorts of ideas and I want a platform I want to be the platform that speaks up about these sort of important issues and gives women a voice in reform sometimes some of your statements have caught in a little bit of controversy let's first of all deal with the suggestion that the burka should be banned can you be very specific about what exactly in terms of Muslims women's clothing you want to ban and are you differentiating here between hijabs and full body coverings?

32:32So what I find very uncomfortable when I see them a lot in particularly in London that sort of full coverings faces covering you know just just a place for the eyes I don't actually think that has a place on our streets I think or in our institutions and I think it's threatening but also I made a very clear point when I asked that PMQ. It was my first ever question to the Prime Minister. I was only five weeks in so you know I decided to not go in too gently. I thought I'd better make you know say something that somebody would it would be meaningful and I went in on very much the security aspect as well because if you remember in that question I said in the interest of public safety because I do think that's also how are we expecting our police and our counter-terrorism to operate and be able to identify criminals on the streets if we've got full face coverings.

33:34And I very quickly did extend it in interviews afterwards to full face coverings need to be stopped, whether it's balaclavas. Listen, I have problems in my constituency of Runcorn and Helsby. You know, these e-scooters and e-bikes now, very aggressive gangs riding them around. They're all balaclavered up, baseball capped on. It's got to stop. It's also been a feature of some of the recent trouble in Middlesbrough. Quite, exactly. It's very threatening behaviour. So going back to your question about the burqa, look, I want to, my view is that anything that supports in any way the suppression of women in this country, there's no place for it you then had a bit of a row with Zia Yusuf who went onto social media to decry your call to ban the burqa as quotes dumb he then I think retracted that and now also supports a burqa ban can you just clarify Zia Yusuf your relationship with him and whether or not he is posing problems internally for other MPs in the party?

34:51So Zia and I get on very, very well. You're probably anyone that sort of listens to me doing my media bit. You know, we both talk a lot about a similar area, the justice brief, which, of course, is my background, 20 years in the courts as a magistrate. So, you know, so our areas sort of overlap. But, you know, I very much hope that we would work closely together going forward. That particular weekend when Zia did resign, do you know what? He rang up, he apologised. I accepted his apology. It's a very stressful job that we all do. And I'm sure it was just a moment of, you know, when he perhaps was just a little bit, you know, out of sorts, whatever.

35:36The point is that we're very good friends, huge respect for each other. And I have to say Zia has been somebody who has always stood up for me, always supported me. And, you know, and you don't forget that in this world. It's very it's very hard. I've worked out in politics as a brutal world and you don't have many people that you can trust. But Zia is great. He's right there by my side. But he does have a reputation for being hot headed and trigger happy on social media, doesn't he? I'm referring to the recent tweet about a Somalian potentially running in Holborn and St Pancras. and also the accusation that Ben Wallace, who did serve queen and country, was a traitor.

36:14Look, I actually don't look and read all of the Twitter stuff. I think it would send you mad if you get obsessed with reading Twitter. And I actually genuinely do not go. I don't go there. And so I do try and ignore all of that sort of like tittle tattle on Twitter because I think it would send you nuts. yes I am aware of course I'm aware of some of the things that have been said but what I would say about Zia is he is one of our actually our best strongest media performers he's an excellent communicator and he's totally committed to to his mission and we I don't know if any of you have just come from the main stage listen to Zia speak you know he's an impressive individual he's a high quality individual and he's a great asset to our team, I think.

37:08Very quickly, do you personally see a problem with a Somalian immigrant running for parliament? Look, the Labour Party, I think it's the Labour candidate, isn't it? They can put forward who they like. We will in turn choose our... But do you personally find it objectionable that someone who's first generation migrant should run for parliament? Listen, as I say, it's a democracy. People have a choice who they vote for. But would you vote against them because they're a first-generation migrant running for parliament? I will always vote for the person that I think will be best for the job and, of course, who represents the party that I believe in.

37:43And that's about democracy. So, in other words, Labour will put up who they want to as a candidate. It's a democracy. Sarah, would it count against the candidate? That's our rules at the moment. In your mind, would it count against the candidate that they were a first-generation migrant? I will always say that it's up to the voters. if they want to vote for that person, if they think that person is the right person to represent them, then they'll vote for it. What would you think? I don't know that person. I can't comment on that particular candidate. The point is that we live in a democracy and we should be proud of that democracy.

38:15But at the end of the day, it's all of us. We all have a vote. We can vote for the person that we think best represents our views and that is to be defended always. So there's always going to be a range of candidates. Look, there was a bin in Clacton, wasn't there, for goodness sake? And a human fish finger. Well, quite. Ask me whether you think that we should have a bin standing in a by-election. Would reform consider having a first-generation migrant as a parliamentary candidate? Well, look at our... We've just been talking about our wonderful Zia. I think it's all about being the right person for the job.

38:54It's about a meritocracy. It's about who is the best person for the job. But it will always come down to the voters. The voters of the Labour, someone who was minded to vote Labour, will have an opinion about that. They can or cannot vote Labour. There's a paradox with the left, that it has for a very long time been the movement of women's rights, no denying that, and the many things it's achieved for women. But it's also made it strange alliances, one with transgenderism, which is not friendly to women's rights, And another is to conservative Islam, which again is not friendly towards women's rights.

39:31Has the left itself become a problem for women's liberties? Absolutely. And I was desperate to say, yes, I'm so glad you raised this point, because I don't understand why the left has been able to position itself as the sort of flagship for women's rights. because you raised two very important examples there. So we have a Labour government who is only too happy to release early criminals on our streets that potentially are domestic violence offenders. I worked in the courts for 20 years. I know that domestic violence offenders are often going to re-offend. that puts immediately, that is a Labour Party policy that puts the safety of women at risk.

40:29We have the reluctance, refusal of the Labour Party to enact the Supreme Court ruling of women's safe spaces. Another example of where the Labour Party is putting the safety of women at risk. I would be the first to say I would not be happy to go into a changing room and a trans man comes in and starts using that same changing room toilets, I worry so much about young women in schools young teenagers already battling the problems of being young women being in a unisex toilet at school where boys can come in it's absolutely not appropriate Labour are doing nothing to protect and defend women's rights.

41:19And then, of course, we can go on to things like their reluctance, refusal to tackle the growing issue of a Sharia law, Sharia courts in this country, a parallel legal system designed to suppress the rights of women, designed to enable or insist, if you like, that women stay in abusive relationships, potentially, that women don't have rights to their children if they wish to leave their abusive husband. You know, Labour have done nothing to speak out about these issues. Well, I will, because those women are in this country and need defending as much as any other women. And how will reform deal with Sharia courts and Sharia law?

42:09I would like to see, this isn't an official policy, I would like to see that where you have any form of extreme Islam ruling and being established as a shadow court, it needs to be banned. It needs to go. It is not part of our society. Back on a round of applause. On that front, do you have any opinions on halal meat? What I would like to see without question is that it's properly labelled in our supermarkets so that we all have a choice. And can I just tell you a very practical example ongoing? So my team, we have written to all the major supermarkets to ask them, one, how their meat is prepared, and two, whether or not it is clearly labelled.

43:12Now, that work is ongoing, but we've got most of our responses back. And can I tell you how shockingly vague those responses are? And we know why. in my opinion, I would imagine there are instances, and as I say, we're still evidence gathering, where we actually don't know what we're buying. That is what needs to be stopped. That we absolutely deserve to know how our meat is prepared. I'm not saying ban halal or kosher meat. I'm saying label it so that we have a choice. Sure. On the women's equalities front, You do need to be careful you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, to use a slightly mumsy analogy, because the suggestion about tearing up the Equalities Act has obviously been met with some concern that that might also indirectly trash women's rights, women's rights to be considered for the same job as a man, to be paid the same as a man, to be protected when on maternity leave and so on and so forth.

44:16Do you know the mechanics of how the scrapping of the act could lead to a new act and what that new act should look like so that it isn't then taken off and misinterpreted by people who want to, for instance, assert trans rights over women's rights? Yeah, I want to be very, very clear that reform are going to strengthen the Equalities Act. Scrapping the Equalities Act was probably not the best way of positioning what we want to do. What we want to do, the Equalities Act has morphed into something, like so many of our laws, morphed into something that doesn't really actually represent women's rights anymore.

44:55because there are areas of the Equalities Act that insist on a certain quota, for example, of maybe ethnic minority or whatever it might be, trans or disabled, it doesn't matter. The point is what reform will say about any employer is that employers should have the right to hire the best person for the job. It should be about a meritocracy. And I can pretty much guarantee there's not a single woman in this room that wants to be given a job because she's a woman and not because she's the best candidate for that job. I totally disagreed with all-female shortlists, which David Cameron actually introduced at one point.

45:36I thought that was shocking. You know, I would never, ever have wanted to be part of an all-female shortlist because I was a woman. I want to be on a shortlist because I am an excellent candidate. And then, do you see what I mean? Yes. So our positioning of the Equalities Act is that it needs to be rewritten. but fundamentally absolutely all rights for maternity, equal pay, and of course gay rights as well as part of the Equality Act. So all needs to be preserved but strengthened so that we compete in a meritocracy. There is no question at all that reform would ever do anything to lessen female rights, women's rights.

46:20On that point, we have some questions from the audience. And Anonymous, I don't know if it's Mr or Mrs, says, if Nigel Farage were, for whatever reason, to depart as leader, should reform elect a woman as her successor? Well, I probably shouldn't possibly comment. What do you think? Sarah Pochum, we better let you go. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. Thank you, Sarah. Welcome to the stage, reform candidate for London Mayor, Leila Cunningham. Hi, hello. Hello. Lovely to see you. Thank you for doing this. Nice to see you. Welcome. Tim, are you going to kick off with Ms Cunningham? Well, I will begin with, you are reform candidate for London Mayor.

47:09There is now a potential rival from the Tory party, James Cleverley. How do you assess him? Is he a threat? I don't think I could have picked a better candidate. Basically, it's going to be two sirs and a Londoner. I'm going to be facing Sir Khan and Sir Cleverley. If ever there was an establishment, stitch up against the little guy, this is it. I didn't experience London through a ministerial car or an armored Range Rover. I experienced London through my kids being victims of knife crime, through defending victims in courts, through being alone on a tube, as every woman has felt, thinking, should I get off?

47:47It's only me and another man. And if I do get off the carriage, is he going to follow me? Will there even be police outside? So they made the decisions. You know, one wrecked the country, the other wrecked the city. I don't think they're the answer. OK. The electoral maths in... Thank you.

48:06The electoral maths right now in London is intriguing. So a Cervantes poll for Queen Mary University Marland Institute, which was conducted just a few weeks ago, puts Labour on 33 percent, reform on 20 percent and the Conservatives on 18 percent. So effectively, the righties are commanding more support in the capital than the lefties. Although I suppose you could add the Greens and then that would put the lefties. Well, let's be honest. once as with the country, as in the capital, we've got a kind of right-left split. And what's problematic for you on the right is that your vote's going to be split if Cleverley stands or any Tory comes forward that has a degree of recognizability.

48:51I know you're denouncing him as useless, but some people will vote for the Tories in the capital as they have done at local elections and in the country. So this is problematic. How do you get to this magical number of managing to beat Sadiq Khan despite having righties on your flank? So I think the premise is wrong. I don't think London is divided amongst left or right anymore. I think it's divided amongst issue-based. For instance, in the local elections, everyone said we didn't do so well. But actually, if you look at what we did, embarking in Dagenham, which has not had a non-Labour councillor elected in 16 years, it's been run by Labour since 1965, we got nine in.

49:29The Tories wouldn't even dream of getting one elected. We are winning in left areas, so-called left areas and so-called right areas, with equal measure. And for instance, my husband, Barbara, is a die-in-the-hard Labour voter. And she doesn't like us. And then so my husband's like, you know, my wife is running for reform. And she goes, oh, I don't like reform. But she said, I'm a small business. If they put more money in my pocket, I will vote for them. And I think that's what you're seeing in politics. It is issue-based. It is no longer amongst right or left. Are my streets safe? Can my kids afford a home in London?

50:05Is the tube working? Can I bloody well drive without getting some sort of fine for something? It's all these things, and who do they trust to bring about that change? And also, I'll point out, it's very difficult to look at it electorally, because in the previous elections, obviously, there wasn't this fracturing of left or right or politics. We didn't exist. And just this time last year, I was the only reform councillor. reform was non-existent in London and we've gone from 13 % in May to 20 % now, despite reform not, you know, kind of stagnating nationally. So we're doing well in London. And yeah, as I say, I don't think, I just don't think it's issue-based anymore.

50:42I think it's who do you trust to solve the issues. I want to pick up on what we were just discussing with Sarah. Zia Yusuf expressed discomfort for at Labour perhaps nominating a Somali first-generation migrant as its candidate for Parliament. Now, one thing I like about reform is it's colourblind, and it seems to me not to judge people on the basis of where they've come from. 100%. And it also seems to me, in keeping with the spirit of Britain and London, that it should celebrate a migrant, a recent arrival, who works so hard and cares so hard about their community that they would want to put themselves forward for Parliament.

51:20and she does seem a particularly good example of that. So can you explain what Zia is uncomfortable about and are you uncomfortable with Zia's discomfort? I actually didn't understand what he meant by his tweets. We talk about integration and assimilation as vital for the success of immigration and I think the candidate kind of represents that. I've heard her speak. She's the leader of Camden Council. I can't say I'm a fan of Camden Council but she's an example of someone who came here very young and became British. I can't fault that now. Good. Okay, fine. I'm pleased you said that. Of course.

51:58Picking up on what you were saying earlier about your experience with crime and your family's experience with crime, do you think that there's been too much of an expectation of women to adjust their behaviour in light of changing security in the capital? that now it's almost seen as incumbent upon them to protect themselves rather than the community protecting them and making sure there's no miscreants? Well, it was never up to the community to protect, right? Because, you know, you say government has monopoly of violence. So that is why protection of the public is the first duty of government.

52:36So I always expected the police to have my back if a crime happened. You know, I spoke to a lady whose son was stabbed to death, and she said there wasn't even a police station for him to run to. You know, we don't have police stations in London. We only, in a city of nine million, we have a counter, only one counter, two counters actually, for 24 hours. I spoke to a lady. She wrote to me in desperation. She was raped. And the police said they wouldn't prosecute because she was smiling on the CCTV before she went up. And I actually wrote to them after. And I have the receipts, as they say, on X.

53:07And the police literally said, we're not going to even investigate because we cannot be sure that a judge and jury would convict. That is a trial matter. As you know, rape happens in private. There are no witnesses. It becomes down to credibility. And so that also explains why only 6 % of rapes end up in a charge, despite one being reported every hour. So I think women have lost trust in police protection. But it's not only women changing the way they live. My kids change the way they live. We all do. You don't want to wear a nice watch. You don't want to take your phone out. When my kids are out, I track them.

53:42I can't sleep till my kids are home. And these are infringements on my freedom. You know, it's not the law that told me to do that. It's the fact that there's crime. And that is a political decision. So when we talk about safety, we talk about freedom. There's a freedom to being able to walk at night. Or there's a freedom to me being the only woman in a carriage with a man in the tube and knowing, hang on, I'm not scared because there's a policeman at the next stop. Or if I report a crime. I mean, this was funny. So after Anne Whittacombe passed away, someone tagged my front door and then ripped my wing mirrors off.

54:14Initially, it actually didn't occur to me to report it to the police. That's how little trust I have. And I think a lot of Londoners feel the same way. But I did. And then I got a letter from the police, I don't know, a week or 10 days later, saying we've exhausted all avenues of investigation. They hadn't even attended. No witness statement was taken. Nothing. So I wrote back. I go, what? What are you going on about? And they're like, well, you know, it's just limited resources. we can't investigate and I'm like do you think you should just take some forensics from my door and they go well there's many people have have touched your door I'm like yeah but if they match anything you have on file in relation to Anne Willicom or whatever so I was also getting horrible messages and they said no just just no so it's that reliance that not only should the police prevent crime but if it happens to you they should at least investigate it yes and I think you're giving a very good diagnosis of the problem that many people here who have been the victims of so-called petty crime.

55:06I mean, there's no such thing as petty crime. You've been affected by it. You've had your stuff nicked or your phone ripped out of your hand or, God forbid, your watch stolen from your wrist. There's nothing petty about it. No, it's an assault. So it's a diagnosis, but what can you actually pledge to do? So say, for instance, if you became mayor of London, would you seek to reopen some of those police stations? Can you do that? Would you have the authority? What does zero-tolerance policing actually look like if you were to execute it? Yeah, let me explain it. So I would open the police stations.

55:39A lot of them are mothballed now and they're just sitting there. I would open police counters. In fact, when I was councillor in Westminster, I was discussing opening pop-up police stations because when you speak to the police officers, say for neighbourhood teams, they need a place to relax sometimes. It's called a touchdown. And when they have to travel very far to a police station, it removes them from the ward and removes them from the community. They don't have anywhere to chill. It's not like America where they can go to a donut shop. So I was wanting to open for pop-up police stations. Number one, so there is communication between, I don't know, probably none of you know your safer neighbourhood team, right?

56:10And they are working really hard and the community doesn't know them. So I wanted to get to know them. So for me, it should be a very close relationship between the community and the police and that's been lost. But also, say what you will, but we do not have visible policing in London. You know, I'm on Oxford Street, a lot, one of the highest crime areas in London. I just don't see police. I like to play a game, I'm like, spot the police. there are no police and visible police is a deterrent so we've got 35 ,000 officers and I've got a few of them speaking to me secretly and they're bogged down in paperwork you know he cancelled the Palantir contract which would have removed a huge amount of contracts as a result actually 300 police officers are going to be cuts that's a dereliction of duty his his priority is to provide the most cost-effective policing service and the most effective and removing services like Palantir does not reach that end point.

57:00So I would restore visible policing. I would also do an audit of where every hour of police is spent. I spoke to a fireman who just moved back from New Zealand, and he said he's training firemen here, and he's saying they have to do regular courses on toxic masculinity. Who doesn't want a masculine fireman? like like you know what I mean and and so so we've just lost the plot then he's then you know these guys want to do fire they want to be firemen they don't want to be like anyway I'm not gonna say what they want to be but but you know and so it's just restoring priorities and there is a huge managerial level that I've been told doesn't match what's needed on the ground so it is a huge order and perhaps a clear out of what's going on you know a lot of police officers you've heard have been convicted you know charged or convicted of sexual assault and that we're interviewing police officers on zoom right now you know these are people who we entrust the safety of our children our community ourselves they need to be fully vetted and they need to be fully you know watched and I think we need to go back to that also there's a huge retention problem in the Mets and that is because I've spoken to people in the Mets and they've told me you know if there is a mob of white people they'll use all the force necessary to contain it if it's a mob of ethnic minorities they will retreat because if they get any accusation of racism they will be thrown under the bus by leadership sure we need equality under the law i know but i'm asking in a way so i would just yeah but how much authority are you going to have over this because you're running to become mayor of london not the next met police commissioner uh he is the he is the police and crime commissioner the mayor he sets the direction the priorities and the budget for the police so for instance he's just spent 17 million pounds on workshops to tackle hate crime.

58:39I'm not going to City Hall to police opinions. I'm going into police crime. You know, that$17 million could have paid for police officers and police stations. And I think there has been a focus, and I've seen it as a senior prosecutor in London, there's been a focus on policing opinions, offence, and there hasn't been a focus on policing harm. And I want to reverse that. Also, there are tools that can be utilised that are very underutilised. For instance, there's something called the Criminal Behaviour Order. so when you go to Oxford Street to steal from a shop you get you know they arrest you they take you to court might spend the night in prison you're back on Oxford Street the next day sure a criminal behavior order is something that bans you from the area it's quite laborious to prepare to present to court and I've spoken to many people in court and the Met and they're like we love to prepare it we just don't have the resources right something technology like Palantir could help with yes so it's these kind of things where it everyone I don't know I have in my area you see the same people you know they don't necessarily live there but they come to commit crime they should not have the privilege of walking on my streets if they're coming to commit crime but on my met police commissioner point then i mean a lot of what you've cited has happened under mark rowley's watch so would you look to replace him if you became the next mayor of london yes if he's not effective also i have a serious issue with sadiq khan and rowley they kept denying that the grooming gangs existed in london and they were they were you know they were unequivocal about it and we all saw the tapes of both of them saying they just do not exist yet we have heard the BBC report you know I've read victim reports where girls from Oxford were driven to London and there were hundreds of men and literally she says none of them were investigated she wasn't even asked about it you know girls were driven from Midlands where they were driven to London to be gang raped overnight because their abuser owed someone in London it is happening in London and it is being ignored and that for me is an indictment on both of them so unless they have a very clear explanation anyone who's involved in covering it up, not only will they be fired, they'll be prosecuted for a derelation of D.C.

1:00:44The Labour government has scrapped the law which criminalized Sleeping Rough. And it has also said that it will be offered a home by Christmas. This is a British version of an American policy, Housing First, where you tackle homelessness business by first by just taking the view of what they need is a roof over their heads so you offer it to them and you take away all the penalties and essentially it's all stick. It's all carrot and no stick. Is this an approach you will follow? So I can't change legislation, obviously. I've actually been to a few homeless camps. I've been to one in Houston and one just off Shoreditch, just off Brick Lane.

1:01:21No one there is British, right? So when I went to the one in Brick Lane, they were refugees from Eritrea and Somalia and when I went to the one in Houston they were from Romania and they all told me the same thing we are waiting for a council house right and that is the problem and that's why reform is very clear that social housing would only go for British people because when you allow people to come here whether legally or illegally with the hope of getting a council house it's a huge enticement so these guys are just waiting they're lobbying the council to give them a council house and as you know 15 London boroughs have declared themselves as sanctuary boroughs for refugees and just for everyone who doesn't know, if you arrive on a boat illegally, you are an illegal migrant until you say the magic word, open sesame, no I'm joking, until you say the magic word asylum, you become an asylum seeker and when that asylum claim is granted, which is about 90 to 100 percent, you become a refugee and if you're a refugee in 15 London boroughs, Westminster included, you go to the top of the housing list thanks to the Equalities Act brought in by the Tories which said you cannot prioritize on the basis of nationality and the Localism Act that has deemed that refugees are most in need.

1:02:31Contrast that with veterans, which we have the largest number in London, who are sleeping rough. That presumption is going to be reversed. If it was up to me, there will be no more sanctuary boroughs. And that's why... So if you put it, you know, an illegal migrant can have better service by the state and better provision of housing than a veteran who's fought for us. And that's a betrayal of the social contract. But how far do you want to go in evicting people from council housing? I can't do that. That's not... I mean, I'm running for London. There are very limited remits that the mayor has.

1:03:07You know, it's crime, fire, TFL and some planning. That's not... So that's statistic that 43 % of social housing in the capital is occupied by those foreign-born. there's actually nothing practically you can do about that. I mean, if they're British, they're British. As a mayor, I can't do that. As a mayor, I don't have control to do that. I think that's a council thing and a central government thing. Yes, but I make that point because a lot of the issues that reform campaigns on, the genie is already out of the bottle. Yeah. And it strikes me that in many cases it can't be put back in. so if you're talking about uh particularly in the case of sort of lawfare and things attempting to get people out of social and council housing because actually the british should be prioritized along with veterans it's practically quite difficult to execute that do you agree i don't think it's uh just like refugees have been prioritized you're just going to reverse that priority you know how we deal with the backlog is something you're going to have to zero about but how we move forward it will be people who arrive on boats will be damn sure that they will not have access to social housing or any kind of benefits and they will be detained and deported but what you've seen is with the prioritization of refugees you have seen a rise in demographic change in certain parts because they are housed in large numbers in certain parts of London and certain parts of the country I grew up in in Kilburn and it was all Irish it It is not all Irish now.

1:04:40It is a very different demographic. And people in London have noticed that. And it has changed the feel of London, the way it looks. It's changed the languages you feel. It's changed the way of life. London has changed. And there are some things, even if Reformer had a massive majority, it cannot change. The capital is a different place. But you can stem the flow. Right. Right? So you can stop it getting worse. As I said, I'm not in charge of council allocation as mayor. I'm not in charge of who's going to get it. But I know that under reform, social housing, which is one of the most limited social resources that is paid for by the taxpayer in this country, will be allocated to British citizens, which I think is just really like what any country should do.

1:05:25If I'm not prioritised by my own government, I mean, where do I go? So if you prioritise British people for social housing, you will see a change in demographic moving forward. If you right now, we have. 20 to 40 year olds who cannot own a home in London, you know, some of them are on six 60K, 70K highest earners. There's no way they can afford to have children. Whereas if that refugee wants kids, he's going to apply to have his dependents flown in and they're going to find him a bigger house in London. So someone who arrived illegally has got more housing security than someone born and raised in London, did everything right and is working.

1:05:59Because when that person on 60K wants kids, they're not even looking at London. And that has contributed to demographic change. So another thing would also be to build more houses. You know, for me, I feel like in London and I think across the country, when someone wants to build something, whether it's a business or a building, the government or the local authority will be like, you know what, I want you to go through hoops, spend hundreds of thousands of pounds and prove to me why this is necessary. You know, I spoke to a guy who was trying to get planning in Croydon for seven years and I want to reverse that presumption.

1:06:28I think the city hall should be like, this is needed. I need to prove to you why it shouldn't go ahead. You know, there is a presumption that if it's needed or if you're going to build something in this city and you're going to bring thousands of jobs, investment, and you're going to contribute to the economy, I have to prove to you why I'm going to say no. I'm not going to ask City Hall to regulate it or some complex policy. I'm going to be like, how the hell do we get this done? Right. Leila Cunningham, thank you very much. Thank you, Leila.

1:06:59Leila, thank you. Thank you. Thank you to all of our guests today, Nadine, Doris and Sarah Pochin. That's us done for the Reform Party Conference. We'll be back tomorrow, 5pm.

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