Remembering Esther Rantzen: Her last full Telegraph interview

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0:37Welcome to this special edition of The Daily Tea in conversation with the great Dame Esther Ransom. Well, Esther, first of all, how are you doing? You planted tulips last year that you didn't think you'd necessarily see in bloom. All true. All true. And I'm on this one of these fascinating new drugs. I call it my miracle drug. and so far it seems to be holding it at bay. I said to my consultant, when am I going to die? And he said sometime in the next 10 years. So maybe my mother made 94, so maybe I will. Who knows? Who knows? When you ask the consultant that, how do you feel about that question yourself?

1:22I mean, presumably you do and you have been thinking because of the assisted dying debate, your own death. Has that been difficult to think about? Well, when you're diagnosed with stage four cancer, whether or not there's a public debate about assisted dying, you automatically think about the fact that you are mortal. It wasn't news to me because I knew I was going to drop off my perch sometime fairly soon. I mean, when you're in your 80s, we all know that. Yes. The debate about assisted dying has really amazed me because I mentioned that I joined Dignitas and I had no idea it was going to resonate with so many people.

2:07But in the recent parliamentary debate in Westminster Hall, one of the speakers talked about the fact that since Harold Shipman's murders, the regulations involving doctors have tightened up. Yes. So that it's much harder for them quietly to bump you off in the way they did in the older days. So I think more people have seen people they love die in pain in a way that they would really not wish to and asking for help to die and not being given it. And I think that has persuaded a lot of people that the law is a mess at the moment and needs clearing up. I saw that YouGov polling suggests that 73 % of the British public, so three quarters nearly, think that doctors should assist in cases of terminal illness, Esther.

3:01I mean, is that the distinction to be drawn here? That the case must be terminal? That somebody must have been told, look, you've only got months to live in order for this even to be a consideration? Well, that's the proposal at the moment. And some people are putting a timescale on it, like six months to live. We're in a quite good position here because other countries all over the place, Netherlands, Australia, many of the American states, etc., have legalized it in different ways. So we can look at the evidence from those countries and see what works. Canada, you know, and the one thing I can tell you about those countries is not one of them would go back to criminalizing assisted dying.

3:51They all vary in the kinds of regulations they put in, the precautions they put in. And obviously, there must be very careful precautions to protect vulnerable people from being pressured into taking their lives or other circumstances which are quite wrong and should not be allowed. But if someone asks for help to die, it's a sort of choice that we're giving people these days over marriage, over birth, all kinds of things. So it's the final choice, I think. But then there are concerns about mission creep. Liz Carr is the actress from what she's best known for Silent Witness, but she's also a disability campaigner.

4:37She makes the point that she was in a wheelchair from 14 and she looks back at a letter she wrote to her mother saying she wished she could die at the time that she was diagnosed. But as she points out, she's gone on to live a very happy life. Yes. And I know that a lot of disabled people are very concerned that they'll be pressured. And I think what that reflects is society's attitude to disability, because they clearly feel vulnerable and that people are telling them that they would be better off dead and so on. But suppose you're a disabled person who is terminally ill, in great pain. Shouldn't you be allowed to ask for help to die?

5:24Shouldn't we all be asked, you know, given the choice?

5:31I can understand how they feel. And, you know, I think there were probably exactly the same doubts about when the law relating to terminating pregnancy were relaxed and people were given more choice. Yes. But the fact is that nobody is suggesting anything other than someone requesting for help being given the choice. Nobody is suggesting that the choice be imposed on anyone. That's all we're asking for. Although there was another example in the Liz Carr documentary of a woman in Canada. She had been involved in a car accident. She became extremely depressed because of her circumstances, even though she had the hope of a recovery.

6:18And she decided that she would take her own life and didn't tell her family about it. And of course, it's left her daughter distraught because she felt that her mother would have had a chance at a life of quality had she been given more medical and indeed psychological help. There's that concern, Esther, isn't there that due to a lack of services, you know, this may be an option if there is this mission creep that people take if they've got mental health problems, perhaps if they haven't got enough money, perhaps if they feel lonely. Yeah, well, I mean, we could go on perhapsing for a long time here.

6:56I mean, the fact is that in this country, we're not considering mental health pain as one of the conditions where someone can ask for help to die. I know that mental health can create just as much suffering as physical health if you're ill. But we're not considering that and indeed Canada has delayed bringing in the provision that would enable those with mental health suffering to ask for assisted death you can only do it with physical suffering and that's a choice for the parliamentarians to make but I think the other argument that sometimes put forward is that treating mental health issues is improving and that one day soon there will be effective treatment for depression, which sometimes at the moment is a term, not the honest, because it does cause people to take their own lives, sometimes under very difficult circumstances like this lady in Canada.

8:04How much better, surely, to have an assisted death with all your family around you, everybody agreeing that it's the right thing for you. What does a good death look like to you, Esther? Because you say you've registered with Dignitas and you've also said, look, I don't want my family to remember me rolling around in agony, which I think most people can sympathise with that sentiment. But if you did go out to Switzerland, you'd have to be by yourself, wouldn't you? Because otherwise your children could be classed as complicit in your assisted suicide, still a crime in this country. so you could be facing the prospect of dying alone yep and how do you feel about that well I think it's not ideal you know it's the strongest argument I think for saying come on Britain change your law England and Wales Scotland is um not for the first time ahead of us in this Jersey doing well Isle of Man doing well I mean under what circumstances could you see yourself taking up that place at Dignitas?

9:11Oh, well, I mean, if a scan showed that, you know, the miracle drug was no longer a miracle, you know, at the moment, one of the conditions for legalising it is six months. So I'd have to say to my oncologist, you know that 10-year thing you said? Could you tell me now where we are on this road? Look, we're all dying, aren't we? We're all dying. When I say to any of my medical friends and relatives, you know, am I dying? They always say we all are. So it's only a question of trying to have a good death, however you define it.

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10:29When you're going through treatment like this and obviously stage four lung cancer, I've asked you about how much you could think about death. How much do you reflect on your life? Because I don't know if you remember, but when you first made public that you'd been diagnosed, I sent you a message. I'm sure you received countless others where I said that you'd been my inspiration to become a journalist. And I remember watching That's Life in the 1980s and 90s and thinking, I want to do your job. And you've been that inspiration for so many, particularly female journalists. Have you been taking stock?

11:04Well, people have been very kind. I do think knowing that, you know, death is fairly imminent does bring out a huge amount of generosity and kindness in people you know, like yourself, because, I mean, that was a lovely message you sent me. Thank you so much. and it's nice if true it's it's lovely to feel that obviously you are such a wonderful pioneer in your own way I mean everybody I think all the women who are now taking on these very very responsible and influential roles particularly in journalism are achieving so much and also I mean bringing a fresh approach to issues that affect us all.

11:52You know, when I started in journalism, I think things like mental health were consigned to the women's page because they weren't important enough for the men to get involved in. And I think having strong, eloquent women journalists has allowed all these social issues, the emotional issues to come onto the front page. So I think you've been responsible for a major revolution in journalism to the good. Not all changes to the good, as we know. But then I read in my old newspaper, The Sunday Express, that you're passing on the mantle of Childline to your daughter, Rebecca. That must make you happy and proud.

12:35Oh, I thought it was wonderful. It was the NSPCC, Childline is one of their services now, who said to me, how would I feel if Becca took it on? And I was absolutely thrilled. And she's completely committed. She's training as a volunteer counsellor, which actually is really helpful in her role as a mother, she tells me. Yes. And she's in touch with all the various members of staff and volunteers and compares notes with them and talks about the training and so on. It's wonderful. Despite all your journalistic achievements, do you look at Childline and indeed Silverline as the greatest of them all?

13:18Well, I can't claim them as my achievement. I mean, it's one of the best. I mean, if it wasn't for you back in 1986, particularly with the launch of Childline, I remember it vividly. It's affected so many children's lives in such a positive way. You were the conduit for all that. Well, I was very fortunate to be part of that. I agree. But there's two different things. One is having a thought. And, you know, I had a thought that when we opened helplines after one, that's life program, and so many children were talking about abuse, they hadn't been able to talk about to anyone else, because they'd been threatened into silence, and they didn't feel safe.

13:59But they did on the phone. And suddenly, I realized that a helpline for children might well release thousands more. And as you say, in the time since 1986. There have been something like 6 million children who use the service and still do. But I didn't actually create that service. I didn't train the staff. There have been generations of volunteers and staff who have actually made Childline what it is today, online, message board, phone service, all that. And I'm thrilled with it. I can't claim credit, but I'm thrilled to have been there at the start. And in the intervening nearly 40 years, do you think life's got easier for children or harder?

14:46Well, difficult to tell, isn't it? I mean, the 19th century wasn't a very good time to be a child, was it? Going up chimneys and all. I think that there are new dangers which we know about Social media and the internet and so on Bullying follows a child home in a way it used not to It used to stop at the school gates Yes But at the same time, you know, the children who contact Childline Who are among the most vulnerable children most of them now contact Childline via the internet and send chat to us and we counsel them the same way. And so I think banning smartphones from children would mean that the children who are using Childline would find it far more difficult to get the help we supply.

15:46So Peter Wanderers, who runs the NSPCC, has said, who's listening to the children? Who's asking them their views? And indeed, in all the discussions about children and the Internet, you never hear a child's voice, do you? No. Final question, Esther. You've racked up 84 years. And of course, we associate you with That's Life. What's Esther Ransom's rule for life? What has life taught you? Is there one lesson you can share with us? Gosh, isn't that difficult? It's a big question, I know. It's a big question. My mum always used to say, it'll be better in the morning. And I do think that if you do feel miserable for whatever reason, bear in mind that I sound like Annie, don't you?

16:40Not at all. Not my favourite song, but, you know, the sun will come out tomorrow. Better bottom dollar. Yeah, it's not my favorite song, but it is what my mother used to say. And so far, so far, I think whatever seems to overwhelm you the night before is somehow more manageable when you wake up in the morning. So I would say look forward to the day and things will be better tomorrow.