‘Scandal will get worse with illegal immigration’: Detective-turned-whistleblower Maggie Oliver on grooming inquiry

0:02The Telegraph.

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1:29It is absolutely not a U-turn, Tim, but here is the Home Secretary, Yvette Cooper, announcing Labour's U-turn. Now it has decided, after many, many months of consternation, to hold a national inquiry into the grooming gang child rape scandal. Baroness Casey sets out 12 recommendations for change. We will take action on all of them immediately because we cannot afford more wasted years. So we will introduce new laws to protect children and support victims so they stop being blamed for the appalling crimes committed against them. New major police operations to pursue perpetrators and put them behind bars.

2:08New national inquiry to direct local investigations and hold institutions to account for past failures. New ethnicity data and research so we face up to the facts on exploitation and abuse. new action across children's services and other agencies to identify children at risk, and further action to support child victims and tackle the new forms of exploitation and abuse online. Taken together, this will mark the biggest programme of work ever pursued to root out the scourge of grooming gangs and child sexual exploitation. We are going to break down this staggering U-turn and speak with Maggie Oliver, the former detective turned whistleblower who was one of the first to raise the red flag on a scandal that has shamed Britain.

2:56Welcome to The Daily Tea with me, Camilla Tominy. And me, Tim Stanley.

3:11Let's go back to the history here. So, really the story breaks in about 2011. Andrew Norfolk, now sadly deceased a reporter at the Times tries to blow the whistle on the northern town of Rochdale where it has emerged that young girls had been groomed and sexually exploited by much older men from the Pakistani community At the time I think there was a degree of incredulity about that story Dominic Cummings has subsequently come out and said he was working with Michael Gove I believe in the education department at the time says that numerous officials tried to close down the times when they initially reported on the scandal.

3:50That then prompted other survivors to come forward and we then have situations where it's apparent that similar grooming has gone on in towns like Rotherham, Telford and so on. We do have a number of reports in a localised way. For instance, Alexis Jay, we mentioned it earlier, that looked into the scale of abuse in Rotherham and it was extremely informative about precisely what had been going on in that community. But the argument along the way was always, well, hang on a minute. There was a degree of organisation to some of these grooming gangs. There was a degree of trafficking across county lines.

4:28This was a national story, not something that could be broken up into different areas. And then, of course, on that national scale, Tim, serious questions being asked about whether there was some kind of group establishment cover-up. And we're talking about the police, we're talking about local councils, we're talking about councillors, we're talking about even MPs to try and keep a lid on something that may have, most damagingly, led to more people becoming victims because of the inability of the authorities to put a stop to any of it. How can the Prime Minister insist this isn't a U-turn? This has got shades of Theresa May, nothing has changed.

5:11Everything has apparently changed because Dame Louise Casey, who, let's be honest, has turned into some sort of government watchdog, somebody who is able to look into things where ministers can't. See things they can't see. Which raises problems, doesn't it, when it comes to our elected class. But notwithstanding that, because Louise Casey has said there should be a national inquiry, Keir Starmer can now say there should be a national inquiry. Right. Which speaks partly to his personality, that when officials tell him something is so, then he believes it. He doesn't listen to the people, doesn't necessarily listen to even to the victims.

5:47But when officials say this, then suddenly he takes it seriously. And also, is this not just his entire raison d 'etre, the U-turn? Yes. Almost everything in this government from economics to this, to social policy, to foreign policy, everything begins with this is our stance based upon principle. And then overnight, they do the opposite. Yes. And they expect the public just to accept that that turn is logical. Maybe in their own mind it is, but to the rest of us, it just sounds deeply unprincipled and hypocritical. And they have spent the last few months trying to persuade the public that people calling for a national inquiry into grooming gangs are jumping on a far right bandwagon.

6:30Funny you mention it, Tim. Let's actually listen back to that clip where Keir Starmer used those words on Sky News. This government will get on with the job of protecting victims, including child sexual abuse, mandatory reporting, accelerating the processes. But what I won't tolerate is this discussion and debate based on lies without calling it out. What I won't tolerate is politicians jumping on the bandwagon simply to get attention. when those politicians sat in government for 14 long years, tweeting, talking, but not doing anything about it, now so desperate for attention that they're amplifying what the far right is saying.

7:24So Downing Street actually doubled down on that today. Right. And when asked, a Downing Street spokesman made it clear that the PM had been specifically referring to Tory ministers who had, quotes, done nothing while in government to tackle the grooming gang scandal. Quotes, the Prime Minister's comments about bandwagons were specifically about ministers from the previous government who sat in office for years and did nothing to tackle this scandal. As the Prime Minister said, we will not make the same mistake. The point the Prime Minister has made is that those spreading lies and misinformation were not doing so in the interests of the victims and those cheerleading for Tommy Robinson, who was jailed for almost collapsing a grooming case, are not interested in justice and members of the previous government did not implement any of the Alexis J recommendations.

8:15They only called for an inquiry when it became politically convenient. I just have to ask, which MPs is he claiming have been amplifying Tommy Robinson? The implication is that Tory MPs have been amplifying far-right racist voices. I'd like him to name who they are and give me an example of when they have done that. Because I don't believe, I cover the lobby, I don't believe I've ever heard a conservative, any conservative MP do that. And as regards to what he's done, talk about having your cake and eating it. You want to do what Kemi Bedanoff has told him to do and hold the National Enquiry. but he'd also like to continue to paint her as an opportunist amplifying the far right.

8:59Yes. Which is it? Well, and has he actually climbed on his own bandwagon, fearful that he is hemorrhaging votes to reform? I think you and I can both agree the answer to that is yes. The two politicians that spring to mind, who both at the Home Office tried to investigate the grooming gang scandal and were stopped at every turn by civil servants, and I have spoken to both of these women personally about this issue, are Suella Braverman and Priti Patel. You'll remember that when Priti Patel pushed back and demanded answers, she wanted it to be made public, a Home Office report, into at least the macro picture of what had gone on and what may have been covered up, officials said no, tried to make the report private, she pushed back and she was accused of being a bully.

9:49Yeah. And of course, it's also Labour MPs who raised warnings about child grooming, who were then silenced by their own party. And I do want to stress this, the last few months, it isn't just the Prime Minister who has on one occasion said it's a right wing bandwagon or whatever. This was also coming from Jez Phillips, who insisted that no national inquiry was necessary because previous inquiries had happened. And Rachel Reeve said similar. And Lucy Powell said similar in a debate on radio with Tim Holt. Montgomery. Let's listen to that. How are Labour... I don't know if you saw the documentary on Channel 4 about rape gangs.

10:29We want to blow that little trumpet now, do we? There is a real issue... Let's get that dog whistle out, shall we?

10:39Look, the councils, there were so many people who were so afraid... Can I just finish the point? Can you set a point, Tim, and then I'll bring in Helen. Look, there were so many people in local government, in the authorities, who for good reasons were worried about upsetting community tensions, that those girls went undefended. Now, there were good reasons, but no one has still been brought to justice for that. So you tell me, Lucy, that this isn't a culture in local government. It's just not true. The Jess Phillips intervention is strange. I mean, I appreciate she's in Birmingham Yardley. She's got a lot of Muslim voters.

11:16She's got a lot of people from the Pakistani and Bangladeshi community in her constituency. And she got elected by a very small margin because she was up against an independent competitor when it comes to the last general election. But this is a woman who's always championed the voices of women. So it remains a mystery. The other thing is the lack of political nous here. Pretty much everyone in the country thinks that an inquiry should be held because we've held inquiries in the past into scandals, but to an extent, lesser scandals than this. This is the systematic rape of thousands of children by a particular portion of the community that were protected because of people's fears over community cohesion.

12:08But if that wasn't bad enough, we have then the police and the local authorities accused of covering up the crimes and, to add insult to injury, actually criminalising some of the victims while the perpetrators went scot -free. Yeah. And this tended to occur in Labour-controlled local authorities, which everyone suspects is another reason why Labour has been reluctant to talk about it. And there's an irony to the liberal left's opposition to the idea of actually grasping this nettle, because you had plenty of moderate Muslims saying, can we please have some specificity about the perpetrators of this particular heinous crime?

12:49Because as a Muslim friend of mine put it to me recently, if I'm not a terrorist, everyone thinks I'm a gang rapist. Right. OK, that is the problem here. We can talk in the round, can't we, about child sexual abuse in any guise and indeed child sex trafficking, which is an appalling crime that can be perpetrated by usually men, sometimes with women assisting them, of any creed, colour, race, whatever, religion. But there was something specific about the way that this was orchestrated, the access that or the protection that was given to the perpetrators precisely because they were Pakistani and therefore people were turning a blind eye for fear of being accused of racism and bigotry that makes this a special case.

13:36Child sex trafficking, child sexual abuse happens. This is a portion of it, but we have to address this specifically to find out what were the motivations? How did so many get away with it for so long? And what was the attitude of the authorities and the police? And how can that be changed? How can we learn the lessons of those mistakes which we couldn't? Yeah. And on Friday, seven Asian men were convicted of sexually exploiting two white teenage schoolgirls in Rochdale, grooming them as sex slaves from the age of 13 between 2001 and 2006. So these are cases being investigated right now. And you're absolutely right.

14:14When liberals try to help people who they feel need their help by intervening to shut down conversation about them, they actually do them an injustice. The last thing that helps Muslims who are being slandered is for the perception to emerge that the state is covering up for them. That's preposterous. Yes, it's completely unhelpful. There could be an argument to be made for saying, just to try and give the counter narrative to the prime minister's far right bandwagon shtick, that some people campaigning on behalf of the victims of this may be motivated by the fact that the perpetrators are largely Pakistani Muslim men.

14:54You could argue that some people who have been campaigning on this wouldn't have cared as much or wouldn't have blown the whistle if they were, for instance, white working class men. Right. I mean, there is an argument. Yeah, it is. But of course, the Casey report links child grooming to illegal immigration. So if people are demanding an investigation of that for the worst motivations, OK, that's super bad. Now, this got a second wind recently when Elon Musk started to amplify the story on Twitter. This had both a good effect and a bad effect. The good effect was it reminded people about it. the bad effect was it helped the Labour Party to betray it as something that was being picked up by conspiracy theorists or people just trying to get a shock on social media.

15:39And pushing back against some of the narrative were really two arguments which the Casey report deals with. One, which is more implicit than explicitly stated, is this did happen a long time ago. Some of these cases are about two decades old. And so some clever and enlightened people are saying, this was a problem. It has been fixed. So if you keep going on about it, you're picking at a sword because you want to damage community relations in this country. And the second argument was, if you take sexual abuse in the round, everyone does it. Not literally everyone, but all communities, all creeds and colors do it.

16:17So for people like Elon to focus upon the question of Pakistani money grooming is racist, because you are focusing on one element of sexual abuse because you want to make a point about people's skin colour or their religion or their ethnicity or whatever. Now, the Casey report, which was commissioned by Yvette Cooper back in January, three months long, it addresses those two points. One, by dealing with the question of grooming today, because this is something we need to get on top of. So is this still continuing? What's the scale of it today? And the second is it makes a link between this and people's ethnicity, that there is a specific story in there about Pakistani grooming gangs.

16:59And that, I think, answers the criticism of the criticism. Yes. This is what people demanding a national inquiry were always saying. There is a specific problem with a specific community and it may well still be ongoing. So we need to find out. It answers those who try to shut that argument down. The other thing is about assimilating into British society. And this was actually something that was raised by Sajid Javid, who is British Pakistani. He did quite a lot of work on this, how so many men in certain communities were able to communicate with each other in a criminal network, which went undiscovered by the police for too long, or even if it was discovered that blind eyes were taken.

17:39It also raises questions about the women in those communities, whether they knew that it was going on, whether they even spoke enough English to blow the whistle on it themselves, or whether they actually had a say in their own communities to raise any red flags. It raises so many questions. Yeah. And of course, the questions we want to address on the other side of the ledger are, why did British society allow this to happen? And then why did it take so long for it to hold people properly account and explain to us what went on? Why was this not immediately addressed? Why has it taken so long to do it?

18:13But we also have to ask questions of ourselves, because why was it acceptable at the time to refer to some of these survivors as, quotes, child prostitutes? Yeah. This idea that if you're a girl and you're in care and you're no longer in touch with your parents and, you know, you are introduced into a circle of older men and they're giving you chips from the local chippy and maybe plying you with alcohol and drugs, that actually whatever happens after that point is your fault, even though you're 13. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's tempting to say something about where were the parents, but actually in some cases parents were closely involved in this, as in they were demanding justice.

18:56Well, one father banged on the door of his daughter's abusers and was arrested by police. Yeah, yeah. Parents were tearing their hair out and no one was listening. Yeah. I mean, some parents were absent, but you would imagine if girls are in the care system, they are being looked after by the state. Yeah. That the state would take even more responsibility for their care and well-being than the rest of us, because that is the state's duty and obligation. Yeah. Instead, the idea that they were in care made them more vulnerable. Imagine that, Tim. You're more vulnerable because you're being looked after by the state.

19:34Yes. But that's because this is a model of a state which is trying to manage society. It's not making moral judgments. It's not saying, here's what we would like to be the case. We would like this person to not be abused by people. And we would like these people not to come here and abuse people. Instead, it's just a state which is constantly trying to keep the lid on things. And that involves sometimes turning a blind eye to things, perhaps allegedly. But it also sometimes involves accepting that things will happen. Because to deal with it directly would involve a degree of moral action, which the modern state is not interested in.

20:09It's just about managing us. Let's listen to what some readers have to say about this subject. Jeremy Lowe writes, I agree that Starmer is more interested in protecting his votes, but what did the Tories do in power for 14 years? Nothing. William Warren says, expect to see the mother of all whitewashes. There's no way Starmer will allow any Labour-run council, councillor or MP to take the rap. Someone only called Mr S, it's not me, says Starmer is running scared. This inquiry is only a vehicle to quell rising dismay at Labour's complicity, yet they still don't get it and allow our borders to remain unprotected.

20:46And finally, Cathy Crassweller says, If the politicians and the press stopped using the euphemism grooming gangs, sorry we did that, and started calling them what they are, rape gangs, perhaps there might be a little more outrage and something might get done about it. To be fair, we have used both terms. We have used both, yes. We've said rape gangs, but you have to mention the grooming element because that was a large part of this. It was, yeah. This idea of kind of enticing girls by pretending that they were friends to them and helping them out and then just absolutely abusing them in the process.

21:18Tim, it's all very well you and I kind of talking through the politics of it all, but what was it like on the ground when the grooming gang scandal was first uncovered? We're going to speak to Maggie Oliver, the former Greater Manchester detective turned whistleblower who first exposed what was going on in Watchdale.

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23:14Welcome back. I'm joined in the studio now by Maggie Oliver, the detective turned whistleblower who blew apart the Rochdale grooming scandal and has been campaigning for victims and survivors ever since. Maggie, we've just watched the Home Secretary's statement to the House there. We've got in front of us a summary of the 12 recommendations she's made in her report. I mean, you're saying you're finding it difficult to watch it. Why? I have heard those same words a million times and I listened to that Cooper as though she is surprised by what this report has exposed. I would doubt that there is a single person in this country who doesn't know from my protestations for the past 13 years every one of those things that she's mentioned today I have been shouting from the rooftops since the day I resigned from Greater Manchester Police.

24:01So to pretend that this is new is shocking. But what I do recognise and I'm very, very grateful for is that Baroness Casey has not dodged the bullets. No. Let's talk about what Baroness Casey has said in a very personal statement that's formed part of this report in which you are named. And you are named in it, Maggie, as the founder of the Maggie Oliver Foundation. you brought together groups of survivors you've been campaigning on this issue and she thanks you for the work that you've done. She pinpoints I think a number of extremely sort of disturbing summaries of this entire scandal which I will condense now.

24:42She talks about speaking to survivors who were forced to relive their experiences for nothing because the cases didn't come to court. She talks about how abusers walked free while the survivors had their lives blighted their lives ruined. She talks about abusers breaking the anonymity of their victims and again not facing justice for doing so. As I'm sure people listening and watching this know, if you are the victim of a sexual assault, you have anonymity for life. If you're the child victim, you certainly should have anonymity. There's been a number of cases of people breaking anonymity on social media particularly.

25:22We're talking again about young women waiting years for cases that never see justice, never come to court. We've got women who were offered no trauma counselling whatsoever and haven't been throughout the course of 20 years of their lives being blighted. We've got people having to watch as the people who oversaw the cover-ups went on to be promoted and rewarded for their failure. We've got talk of victims being as young as 10, which is a year younger than my youngest daughter. And we have got basically the claim that a decade at least has been lost. Of course, this should have been dealt with from the time that you were blowing the whistle.

26:07Andrew Norfolk was blowing the whistle with his 2011 Times piece. But we're talking about the time that has been wasted between then and now in not holding the abusers to account. To be fair to the Home Secretary, she's been very clear about the racially aggravated nature of this. She's been very clear about the Pakistani nature of most of the groomers. And she has said that they will adopt the 12 recommendations made by Baroness Casey in full. That includes... It's astonishing I'm having to read this, Maggie. Tightening the law to make clear that children cannot consent when they've been raped.

26:44implementing a more vigorous approach to righting the wrongs of the past, improving information and intelligence gathering when it comes to tackling child exploitation, ensuring we share information more effectively, use information smartly, and apply the best operational approaches across safeguarding agencies, etc., etc. They're great recommendations, but Maggie Oliver, is it too little too late? the things that are in the the brief summary that i've seen i have been stating since the day i resigned and before i resigned i went to the chief constable of greater manchester i went to the iopc i went to the home office many of those things i put in a report to the home office in 2013 so we are 12 years further on i think that the government and the previous government you know I have spoken to Priti Patel, Rishi Sunak, Swala Braverman.

27:39I've lost count of the people that I have said exactly those things to, who have chosen to turn away. Only last week, Dominic Cummings was talking about Andrew Norfolk's piece in The Times to say that they tried to prevent that from being published. That was exactly the time that I was working on the Rochdale case, and I was seeing that with Greater Manchester Police. So none of this is new to me. I'm grateful to Baroness Casey that for the very first time I have seen an acknowledgement of the ethnicity of offenders. Now she refers to Pakistani men. I would go further. They are predominantly Pakistani Muslim men and I'm not racist but if we do not get a grip of this we are failing children.

28:22We have to deal with child abuse wherever those abusers come from. collecting the data. That is absolute basics. And yet for years, the authorities have deliberately not wanted to collect them. Even last week on Newsnight, I heard the head of these kinds of investigations, the police head, saying that the data doesn't support that. Do you know why the data doesn't support it? Because they don't collect it. Every police force collects the data differently. You can't use it. That's a deliberate intent to muddy the waters. And that is why we are in the position we are in. We're talking about consent.

29:07One of the girls that I was supporting in Rochdale, I resigned over how she was treated and her sister. She was 12 years old. She was made pregnant when she was just 13. And yet the Crown Prosecution Service charged her abuser, even though we had DNA, we had a fetus, she was a child with special needs. They charged her rapist with conspiracy to commit sexual activity with a child. He was raping her at 12. There was mountains of evidence in files, in schools, in the sexual health clinics. All these things I have witnessed and I was horrified back then. I am horrified today that it's taken another 12 years for the government to acknowledge that that was true back then.

29:57All those years were wasted. Before that, I worked on a case in Manchester in 2004 and 2005. One of the girls from there is the girl that Baroness Casey talks about. She has been waiting six years again because she was re-approached by Greater Manchester Police with Operation Greenjacket in 2019. Six years on from that, And 20 years after her abuse in 2004, she's named her abusers, she's identified them. They have still never been charged. These are children's lives that are being destroyed. You know, Jade, who I introduced Baroness Casey to, you know, she could have been Amber in Rochdale without me.

30:42She went to prison when she was 15 years and 11 months old. She was a very high-risk child in the care of social services, on the child protection register, at the highest risk. Nine days later, having been abused and raped for three years, nothing was done about it. On one occasion, she was in the toilets, raped repeatedly by seven men, one after the other. Nobody stepped in. Everybody knew. Nine days after her 16th birthday, she was arrested and she was charged with being a paedophile. She went to prison and to this day she cannot go on a school trip with her little girl because she was signing on the sex offenders register.

31:27So all those things are why this is so important but I don't need another inquiry and I do not want another seven years delay. You know, today my legal team have served action on the government that I'm taking them to a judicial review to implement the 20 recommendations of the ICSA inquiry, which don't go far enough. I want to see criminal accountability and I have got another victim, survivors, myself, with a legal challenge where we've got barristers and lawyers investigating where this criminal neglect lay at the top. Do you think that this inquiry is going to actually suggest that what we know so far is the tip of the iceberg?

32:11I mean, I know we know about Rotherham, Rochdale, Telford, other areas, but I think there are some areas that have not been examined by anybody in the police or indeed any local authority and perhaps even any journalists. I run my own charity now, the Maggie Oliver Foundation, and I'm very grateful to Baroness Casey for mentioning the charity because I don't know of any other organisation that does what we do. but that means that we speak to survivors and victims every single day throughout the whole country we are not a local charity we are a national charity and what I would say Camilla is that you know for me and this might still be a bit of a political hot potato but as we see increased levels of illegal immigration and young men with different value systems who are coming to the country.

33:02If we do not get a grip of this, we are just going to see it explode even more. So I don't care where a child abuser comes from. The law is there to treat abusers equally, not to cherry pick who you prosecute. So, you know, if it was Jimmy Savile or a priest in the church or a football coach or an Iman, for me, the law is there to prosecute them. It's as simple as that and children especially children in care they need protection and that is where the state protective agencies must step in and that is where they have deliberately not and if this was Keir Starmer's daughter I can tell you now we wouldn't be in this position.

33:48Well that is a point that is specifically made by Baroness Casey in this and that is the vulnerability of the children in care who should have been looked after by the state and seem to be more exposed to this abuse than any other child in those particular communities. Is this still going on, Maggie? It is 150 % still going on. You know, you speak to the victims, survivors. You go to any town in the north of England, I would say it is more prevalent in the north of England, from my experience, but it is going on everywhere. and the reason is that it is very rare that one of these men is ever arrested or charged.

34:33If a man who got a 13-year-old pregnant is out of prison in just over three years, that sends a signal out that actually it's not that bad a crime. He should be in prison for the rest of his life, actually. Notwithstanding you saying that this is too little too late and indeed your own judicial review to hold people accountable, It is still a good day for survivors, isn't it? This decision, it's a U-turn. We know it's a U-turn. Yeah. And it may have been performed out of political expediency. Who knows? But we do now have a judge-led national inquiry into the grooming gang's child rape scandal.

35:11That is ultimately a good thing, Maggie. You're speaking to somebody here who invested seven years in the ICSA National Abuse Inquiry. I wasn't even allowed to speak, Nor was Harriet Wistrich of the Centre for Women's Justice. Parents Against Child Exploitation, Switolsky's solicitors. They allowed one victim about two hours. I heard her. They wouldn't even let her go to the toilet. They didn't choose any of the areas where these gangs operate. Rochdale, Rotherham, Oxford, Telford. We had a parade of chief constables, heads of social services, given a platform to say what an amazing job they were doing.

35:51So for me, Camilla, the devil is in the detail. Now, if Baroness Casey is going to lead this, I would trust her. I trusted Alexis Jay. And for whatever reason, when it came to the grooming gangs, the organised network strand, it was a whitewash from day one. That's why I have issued judicial review, because we need, first of all, a minister for children in the cabinet. Yeah. Mandatory recording of ethnicity, of occupation, of culture. We need these basics. These are basic human rights. A child in care deserves protection. And I do think that we need radical change in the whole system. But I'm quite happy for victims and survivors who want this inquiry to participate with it, to share their voices.

36:42I don't need to again. I am going to put my energy into this judicial review. I'm going to put my energy into the Action for Accountability Limited that is a team of barristers and lawyers who are scrutinising evidence that already exists. And they will be looking at ways to bring private prosecutions. executions. This is a marathon. It's not a sprint. And what I always say is there is more than one way to skin a cat. And I am not going away until some senior public official is in prison, that children in care are protected, that police deal with abusers when they know they are abusers, and also that we have proper sentencing when somebody is found guilty.

37:27All those things are important. There's a lot more in the judicial review and I will be sharing that document probably later this week. The fact that my legal team submitted it today is purely coincidental. You know, it actually went in in January and in April the government had to respond within three months. The response is woefully inadequate. It's pitiful. It doesn't give a commitment to implement any of them. It's more, oh, we might do this and we'll push this down the road. And that's in the wrong hands. This statutory inquiry will just kick the football further down the road. That's my fear.

38:07And children or women and survivors who put their faith in this, they will be left dangling perhaps for another seven years. That's what I'm fearful of. so I think that Baroness I haven't read it all yet Baroness Casey I trust she came to me in February I spent maybe three hours with her telling her everything everything I know but I have told so many people that it's never been a secret but then when she got back in touch with me about a month ago and said Maggie please would you bring me a group of survivors that will speak to me I have the greatest respect for her and if she had wanted a whitewash, she would not have come to me.

38:53Let's be hopeful. I think, to conclude, Maggie, sorry, I could go on. No, listen, you're not going to stop fighting. I'm not. And it's a wonderfully inspirational thing to observe. We'll be observing your fight as well as this inquiry. We'll be keeping our audience up to date with exactly what's going on and holding feet to the flames on behalf of the victims and survivors of what has been a scandal that frankly has shamed Britain to the core. Maggie Oliver, thank you for your time today. Thank you, Camilla.

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