Starmer clings on – but for how long?

0:02The Telegraph

0:10Starmer clings on for now. We take you inside the Prime Minister's extraordinary meeting with MPs when he managed to save his bacon. But Labour MP Carl Turner tells us that if things don't improve fast, Carl will be down the job centre. And the King has promised to help the police with their enquiries as they look into his brother. Has Charles III being heckled by the public twice led him to finally throw Andrew under the royal bus? Welcome to The Daily Tea with me, Tim Stanley. And me, Camilla Tominy.

0:48We are calling this the McChicken coup. And that needs to be explained. I think McChicken is a reference to both McSweeney, but also Anasawa in Scotland, his tartan-clad assault on the Prime Minister. which, by the way, I mean, went down like a tonic's caramel in a bowl of haggis. I mean, he's there going, he must resign. It was followed up by somebody called, you wrote the name down, where is he? Ewan Stainbank. Is that a real name? Is that a real person? Ewan Stainbank. Jock McFiddle. Jock McTavish. Tammy McThistle. I don't know. With these Labour MPs, it's always... Who are they? It could be made up.

1:33It could be real. You don't know. But anyway, it kind of died a death because after Sarwar had taken to the stage to call for the Prime Minister's resignation... At that hour, it looked like there might be momentum against Starmer and he may go. Macmentum. Macmentum. Only a few hours later, however, having convinced the Cabinet to go out and tweet in his favour, there was a meeting at the PLP that seems to have saved his bacon. Now, while all this was going on in Westminster, I was given two different accounts of what happened with Anna Sawa. One is that Sawa went totally rogue. We shouldn't read too much into it.

2:11All he was trying to do was distance the Scottish Labour Party from Westminster, because the problem in Scotland is that Labour is regarded as a branch of the Westminster Party. So by coming out and saying, I hate the Prime Minister, I'm disgusted by the Mandelson scandal, and I think you should resign, He really doesn't change any dynamic. Keir does not have the ability to remove him. It just means he goes into those elections looking a little more independent. So, irony of ironies, the left-wing Unionist Party effectively declared independence from its national party. OK, so let's call that the Braveheart theory.

2:43Right. The second theory is the one that we first floated on this show that got knocked down, but now seems to have been stood back up again, like Chumba Wumba, which is that, in fact, Wes Streeting was involved in some way. Wow. That someone in Westminster gave encouragement to Sarwar precisely because they hoped it would trigger a flurry of people saying similar things, but that it failed to kick off. So Sarwar was left looking very isolated. He wasn't joined in saying the Prime Minister should go by Burnham. He wasn't joined by Sadiq Khan. And today, the head of the Welsh Labour has given a rather perfunctory defence of the Prime Minister too.

3:23So if there was a plot, it failed horribly. But the popular theory in Westminster is that someone in Team Wes gave Sawa the green light to do that. For example, one left-wing Labour source told The Telegraph, quote, everyone from the PM down to the most junior bag carrier knows who was behind the McChicken Coop. And his name rhymes with Les Wheating. Subtle. Another left-wing MP said, today's events were so clearly manipulated and coordinated by the West Streeting campaign, but they catastrophically failed when he bottled it by not resigning too. He could still be fired. At the moment, with Angela Rayner, fresh from the hairdressers, even backing the Prime Minister, the person who looks to be on the most active manoeuvres is definitely streeting.

4:09Yes. So we've got streeting both being briefed against. He's orchestrating all of this. I think it was notable, by the way, that Ed Miliband, who seems to be the spokesman for the government right now, quite unbelievably, has actually hit out at Streeting directly because of this leak of these messages, which we'll get onto in just a minute. But Miliband almost singled out Streeting for a degree of implicit criticism because Streeting had released messages suggesting that he has previously questioned the lack of growth strategy at the heart of this government and its economic calamity. And Miliband said, well, no, I don't agree with that.

4:47and actually we are growing because inflation is coming down and what's he talking about, while also denying, by the way, that he himself is on manoeuvres. He's also... What is it with Billaband and this sort of down-with-the-kids sort of Silicon Valley street language he's using? Shall we just listen to the language he employed when he was quizzed about all this by Sky's Sophie Ridge? Team Wes have hit out at number 10 for briefing he was behind the Anasawa move. At the same time as Wes was in an interview saying and Kean needed a chance to set out his case and his plan. Number 10 was briefing that Wes had told Anasawa to make his statement.

5:21That is the problem. Moveon.org. I mean, let's just get on. Let's just move past all this. Honestly, I mean, all of this... Come on, we've got to... We, we... And I'm saying to our colleagues, don't focus on yourselves. Focus on the country. That's Ed sounding very hey, fellow kids there. Yeah. Ed also explained why had the Cabinet rallied around the Prime Minister? it was because they had looked over the precipice. Now, of course, that would be over the precipice into an abyss of Keir Starmer being replaced by possibly Ed Miliband as leader. I like to think that when Ed Miliband at the Cabinet said, let us consider what dreadful things could follow, all eyes turned to him.

6:03Turned to... All eyes remembered the bacon sandwich and the Ed Stone and said, things really can only get worse. And then had a good word with themselves and said, Let's stick with the dud we have rather than the oddball that could come next. Potential challengers will be thinking right now, I wasn't ready. This hasn't occurred by their timetable. Hence, that might explain the cack-handed attempt to use Anna Sawa. They weren't ready to line people up to come out and resign and give statements, etc. So they'll be thinking, I'm not ready. They'll also be thinking, do I want this now? No, of course you don't.

6:39They're going to have to go through a by-election at Gorton, which they're likely to lose. They're going to face the May local elections, which they're likely to get wiped out in. Better to let the old man take responsibility for all of that. Nonetheless, they all would quite like the job. West Streeting isn't far off just running around saying, please, please, please let me be prime minister. Please let me be prime minister. And in a desperate bid to distance himself from Peter Mandelson, I'm not quite sure why. I don't feel like people were saying he was Peter Mandelson's lackey, but whatever.

7:12Well, he's been described as Peter Mandelson's mentee. So there's a kind of like, just as McSweeney was meant to be a protege, so too is Wes Streeting. OK, but in a desperate bid to create distance between himself and Mandelson, he has released his WhatsApp exchanges with Peter Mandelson, which only bring more attention to the close and intimate friendship between Wes Streeting and Peter Mandelson. It's so odd, this. Also, you're leaking messages about yourself. Yes, I know. Given this is a scandal about leaked messages, now MPs are leaking their own messages in a desperate bid to be on the front page of newspapers.

7:49I also feel, I genuinely feel this has crossed a line. Throughout this whole scandal, I've not enjoyed it. I do believe politicians and public figures deserve some privacy. You only should have access to this kind of information if it is in profound national interest or if there's a criminal dimension to it. Yes. That's why we want to know what's in the Epstein files. A man who is dead, so we've kind of passed the point whereby are we invading his privacy or not. There clearly is profound national and judicial interest in Epstein's messages. There's none in West Streeting. No. Although they are quite titillating.

8:27Well, come on to what's in them, but they cross the Rubicon. Because now, does this mean that in the future, whenever there's any scandal or controversy, politicians are going to start saying, OK, take a look at all my messages? Yes. Let's hope not. I don't want anyone looking at my WhatsApps. I mean, we had it up to here with WhatsApps when we saw all of Matt Hancock's, courtesy of Isabel Oakeshaw and the lockdown files. And we thank all of them for that. Yes. Yes. So 28th of March 2025, an exchange takes place between West Streeting and Lord Mandelson. Do you want to be Streeting and I'll be Mandy?

9:02All right, OK. So the exchange beginning at 11.36.06am. This is in my best, Dick Van Dyke. I fear we're in big trouble here and I am toast at the next election. We just lost our safest ward in Redbridge, 51 % Muslim, Ilford South, to a Gaza independent. At this rate, I don't think we'll hold either of the two Ilford seats. There isn't a clear answer to the question, why Labour? And Lord Mandelson replies, the government doesn't have an economic philosophy which has then followed through in a programme of policies. To which West Streeting says, no growth strategy at all. It's like a strange version of My Fair Lady.

9:49So that rather lets the cat out the bag. Yes. There's no gross strategy. And people within Westminster will be asking, why did you leak the messages? Please don't do that. Don't set a precedent. But also, why would you leak messages which, OK, they prove that you're not literally the quizzling of Peter Mandelson, but they do also include you slagging off the government of which you are a member. Oh, by the way, slagging off the government of which you are a front bench media operator who is constantly asked to defend the Chancellor. So all those times he's come on my GB News show and insisted that the economy is going swimmingly and actually Rachel Reeves is doing a thoroughly good job, as is his want on a Sunday morning, is all complete and utter nonsense.

10:34Yes. So he's exposed himself now for being a political charlatan and a liar. Well, I just think Wes doesn't do anything that isn't good for Wes. And in this Mandelsonian way, I fear that everything that's been leaked is calculated to make him look better in some manner. So there are a lot of people who will agree with him on the growth point. But also there he is in that exchange, pointing out that he's in trouble in his constituency because it has a large Muslim population. Yes. In another one of the leaked messages, he just happens to deliver what reads like an essay about why Israel is so awful.

11:12He doesn't really think that. None of us think he really thinks that. As you pointed out earlier, he's a member of the Labour Friends of Israel. He's just saying it because he knows he's going to... He's got a 528 majority. Yes. It's tiny. This is the other thing that, by the way, jeopardises any future leadership bid by him. He could lose his seat. Yes. Shall we quote a spokesman for Mr Streeting just in the interests of balance? Naturally, they've denied any coup attempt, in turn blaming number 10 insiders for briefings. The spokesman said Wes did not ask Anas Sarwar to do this. He did not coordinate with Anas on this.

11:48Anas is the leader of the Scottish Labour Party. He is his own man and Wes has the highest respect for him. Meanwhile, Angela Rayner's tweet sounded as if it was composed with a lawyer standing over her shoulder. I urge all my colleagues to come together, remember our values and put them into practice as a team. The Prime Minister has my full support in leading us to that end. which you can interpret to say that if you forget Labour values and if you don't put them into practice, then the Prime Minister will not have her full support because he is not leading them to that end. Well, Tim, from one northern firebrand to another, let's speak to an outspoken Labour MP who was in that meeting last night.

12:30Carl Turner, the Labour MP for Kingston-upon-Hull East, joins us on the Daily Tea. Lovely to speak to you, Carl. Now, the Prime Minister appears to have got a stay of execution. Tim was outside the committee room with his ear trumpet and we'll get his impression of the mood among your colleagues in just a moment. But how did he turn things around in that meeting? Well, as it kicked off, there was a bit of a performative standing ovation. I stayed seated, I have to tell you. One or two people next to me did as well. but as he got going he was being received very warmly and he was passionate he was uh he was clearly angry he was apologetic he was reflective I mean he knew that the appointment of Mandelson was catastrophic and potentially the end of his leadership I think I think that's what he probably was thinking but he came back scrapping in a way that I've not seen before and I think if the public saw him in that mood and performing in that way, I think that he'd be better received in the polls.

13:37Karl, what sort of things did he say to win the rumour round? Well, he began by explaining his appointment of Max Sweeney and his reliance upon Max Sweeney. Some of the things he was saying I disagreed with, if I'm honest. I mean, Key's got this vision that without Max Sweeney would have never won the 2024 general election. I disagree. I don't think that's true. I think what Mark Sweeney might have done is given Keir the credibility to appear competent to the electorate running up to the election. But if I'd have been the leader of the Labour Party in that six week window of the general election itself, I think I'd have been in number 10.

14:16I might not have been there still, but I think I'd have been elected as the PM because the country wanted rid of the Tories. There was no enthusiasm for Karl Turner on the doorstep in Easton, let me tell you that. I mean, my ego might want to persuade you there was. There wasn't. And there was no enthusiasm for Keir Starmer either. It was about kicking out the government, who had been chaotic, let's be truthful, and incompetent. It was a Boris Johnson and Liz Truss victory for the Labour Party in that election, not the Labour Party's. But did Keir Starmer offer a vision in that speech of what Labour would now do, rather than just relying upon everyone hates the Tories?

14:59I think he did, Tim. In the sense, he didn't express it quite like you might imagine, but he did in the sense that he explained his rationale for being in politics, the fact that he was a committed public servant that nobody could dispute, the fact that he does have a vision, and that the vision is delivery for the British public, and he set out the things that he expected to achieve in the next three years. Some of the things were in the manifesto, other things were stuff that he's clearly thinking about implementing as we get nearer to the election. But it was stuff that we could all tune in on and be supportive of.

15:40Okay. A good Keir Starmer speech seems to me as a bit like an encounter with aliens. It always happens off camera. Do you know, honestly, I take your point. I take your point. Look, I don't think Keir, bless him, is the best advocate in the world. His practice at the bar was very eminent. He was recognised very early on for being an incredibly impressive lawyer. But I suspect he wasn't the best jury advocate in the world, but he could persuade a tribunal of court of appeal judges that the law that was in front of them, the legislation that Parliament had enacted, was actually not right and it should be interpreted in the way that his instructing client thinks it should be interpreted in.

16:30He was persuasive in that, but he's not the most charismatic, he's not the most charming, but actually I do think he's committed to public service. But that observation is really insightful because, of course, there's a difference between appealing to juries and appealing to tribunals. Because in the case of a tribunal, you're speaking essentially to colleagues and fellow experts, much in the same way as he appealed to the Parliamentary Labour Party in that private meeting. But it requires a different quality to appeal to the jury who are members of the public. And is that the essential problem?

17:02He's able to connect with you, a fellow politician, but he's struggling when it comes to the voters. I think that's absolutely fair. I think he's terribly cautious. I think lawyers are cautious, really it's part of the profession to be careful about what your advice is going to be or how you act in relation to a legal matter and i think that is a problem he has but i think he's been shackled by advisors because frankly he's not had the confidence to be keir starmer and be the keir starmer that he actually is he's pulled back i think by advisors because he thinks he needs to rely on that advice for the politics.

17:44I think if Keir allowed himself to be unshackled, it'd be much better as a politician. It needs to be more normal, in my view. But Carl, I think the problem is perhaps that he isn't a very good politician. And consequently, he is regarded as a bad prime minister. I mean, the polling is terrible for Starmer right now. He's the least popular prime minister in modern history. And that's saying something. You've cited similarly unpopular leaders, including Johnson and Truss. Be honest with us. What do the good people of Kingston-upon-Hull East actually think of Starmer right now? Look, I'm not going to pretend.

18:25I mean, it's dire. You know, you knock on a door in my constituency and the reception is not very positive. I mean, they do say, look, you helped my mother or you helped my sister or you did a good job for whoever. you know they're supportive of me a bit not entirely because I was one of the people who was telling my electorate that we shouldn't be leaving the European Union when in fact 74 % of them voted leave so I'm not popular across the board but they do sort of recognize the fact that I've been the MP since 2010 they think I do my best I think and in fact they quite like the idea that I'm born and bred in the constituency and that matters to them but when you get onto the conversation of the leader and the government, I'm afraid to tell you they're not terribly enthralled by that.

19:14But I do think we should be given the opportunity to deliver and let the electorate decide in 2029. I hope the election's not before then. But if we carry on with this shenanigans about potential leadership challenges, there'll be bound to be an election earlier than it needs to be, is my fear. Well, let's talk about the leadership rivals. the argument to keep Starmer is we've had too much turmoil over the course of the last six years. We need to keep him. OK, change the approach of government, change some of the policies, but don't change the leader. Having said all that, would your constituents rather someone else?

19:51Would they rather, for instance, Angela Rayner? Well, I don't know, if I'm honest. I think they'd be happier with the Prime Minister delivering for them rather than switching leader, is my honest view. Look, I think Andy Burnham would be popular in the North, but he's popular in the North. He's the king of the North. I mean, a bit of my advice to the Prime Minister when there was some concern about whether he ought to be given the opportunity to stand as a candidate was, look, get him in, let him have a run, win the by-election. I mean, the only reason we exist as a party is to win elections. And regional elections are important, but not as important as by-elections or general elections.

20:36Get him in. Put him in the Cabinet. Make him the Minister of the North, if you wish. Put him in charge of the elections coming up to May. If the results are poor for us, it's his fault, not yours. Use him. Don't be frightened of him. Get him in. And if eventually there's a challenge, well, let him in the contest. if you've got you know if you've got the bottle to be the leader of the Labour Party and then the Prime Minister you need to have the bottle to have somebody prepared to stand against you in a contest in my view it's a tough job in government I think I've not been in government but I suspect it's a tough job let me tell you the texts that Keir Starmer receiving over the weekend were fairly considerable and if everybody who was messaging him was messaging him in the same vein as me, they were fairly aggressive.

21:24Well, what were you saying? What were you saying to him on WhatsApp? I was saying, get him out of the door immediately. Get rid of Max Sweeney immediately, please, Prime Minister, because the reality is it's not just one bad decision you've made off the back of the advice from Max Sweeney. It's multiple decisions in my view. Now, you can give him credit for winning an election. I don't think he did, but you can give him credit for that if you so wish. But please stop listening to advice, which in my view is poor advice. And actually, the context, Camilla, is even more than that. Briefing and spinning and leaking against cabinet minister, against minister, against backbench Labour MPs like me, who only had the audacity to say to the government, you're wrong on this jury curtailment.

22:22It will bite us in the electorate because the public do not want this stupid thing. Stop it now. But they're briefed against me on the basis that they don't like me opening my mouth. Terrible. Do you think that right now Wes Streeting is more briefed against than he is briefing? I think... I think Wes was briefed against and I think the brief... The people who were briefing against him was number 10 Downing Street. I don't think Wes was on manoeuvres particularly. I'm not saying that Wes Streeting doesn't want to be the PM. I think Wes Streeting has wanted to be the Prime Minister since the day he was born, very probably.

23:01I mean, he's always wanted to be the PM. We're not going to pretend he doesn't want to be the PM. But I don't think he was planning any sort of challenge anytime soon. I think he was probably waiting in the wings and getting his act together, ready for what he might have considered was inevitable. I don't blame him for that, actually. But to brief against him and say his own manoeuvres, I think was unfair, because I don't think he was. Carl, you can't think, can you, seriously, that Keir Starmer is still going to be the leader of your party and this country in three years' time. I'm trying to be honest.

23:39I think there's a risk that he's not going to be, and I think it's a problem if he's not. because actually I'm not convinced Camilla that if God came down from heaven wearing a red rosette tomorrow to become the leader of the Labour Party our fortunes would improve very much I think that's where we are I'm afraid to say so I don't think Angie Rayner or West Streeting or Al Carnes who I've never heard of before a couple of days ago bless his corn socks I did see a couple of posts he's done on Trump and I was impressed by him. But these names that have been mentioned, I don't think they're going to improve our political fortunes.

24:23The only thing that's going to improve that is delivery. And I think what we need to stop doing, I mean, dare I say it, we need to stop doing policy that we're doing just for the sake of doing it. I mean, this idea of that on private schools, what's it going to bring in for goodness sake? You know, If it's bringing in an absolute fortune that can be passed down to kids in state schools, fine. But don't punish a private school when the parents who are putting the kids in private schools are doing a service to the country to an extent because they're not taking up the state resource. That's my view.

25:02The farmer's tax, for example. What on earth was we trying to do? I don't know anybody. If I go onto that street now, outside of my front door, and talk about what they think of farmers, I think, what? Farmers? They put the bread on the table. They give us the group. Don't do the unpopular stuff just for the sake of doing something which is going to charm well with the membership of the Labour Party. Be braver, in my view, and for goodness sake, don't start doing policies that we don't really understand, like the curtailment of jury trials. I'm not trying to blow my own trumpet. There's nobody in that parliament, including the likes of David Panett, King's Counsel, Charlie Faulkner, King's Counsel, all of them put together, knows much about criminal justice as me.

25:53The reason for that is, not because I'm a terribly eminent lawyer, I was very junior, but I'm a bit of a nerd when it comes to criminal justice. I know the system. I do the reading. I read the journals. I contribute to some journals. I know my stuff. Listen to people like Karl Turner, Kia, when they know about an area and will not go far wrong. Karl Turner for PM, everybody. I agree with every word. I'm confused. because Karl is Labour, isn't he? Karl is Labour. We have got the right guess. Karl is Labour. And Karl likes to listen to the Daily Tea because, by your own admission, Karl, you like to hear what the enemy thinks.

26:30I don't know if we have made enemies of each other today. I think we're all in a broad agreement, to be perfectly frank. I think there's policies that we ought to be doing. Look, Blair would always do the third way. He was just sort of not always controversial, but he absolutely governed for the country. and I think we do have to bring the country with us if we're going to be expecting to be popular at the end of the government. That's the truth of it. Blair won, what, three elections? Yeah. And actually, he won on the basis that he had the consent, rather, not of the Parliamentary Labour Party, but of the country.

27:07And it's all right having the consent now, for Keir Starmer, of the Parliamentary Labour Party. What I'm trying to get him to be is having the consent of the country when we get to 2029. Because I'll tell you what, if you look at the polling in my constituency, I'm going to have to find a job at the next election. And I love the job I do. It's a privilege to be a member of parliament. I think they say I'm the first MP for East Hall who was actually born in East Hall since William Wilberforce. It's not true. William Wilberforce was the MP for East Yorkshire, which included East Hall. But look, I'm going to be gone.

27:46unless we start to deliver. And I think there's MPs in there who want a career out of it who are thinking, look at the polling, and that's why they're nervous. That's why they're starting to panic, and that's why they're considering the idea of getting rid of Keir Starmer. I think it'd be a terrible mistake. Why? Because our fortunes don't improve, in my view. Delivery, delivery, delivery. Get on with a job we're expected to govern. Just get on with it. Carl Turner, thank you very much. What's not to love about Carl Turner? I adore him. He's great. I was worried as a journalist that I had fond memories of the late years of Boris when there was always an MP who would speak and would always be very critical.

28:30And I was thinking with the new Labour lot, will they be the same? They all seem quite shiny face and well-disciplined. And then Carl just crashes onto the scene and I'm thinking, oh, this is great. We're not going to be short of quotes. Well, that was Carl's interpretation of events last night. You were there with your ear trumpet listening in. Do you agree with him? We couldn't really hear anything through the door. I was struck. A meeting of the Parliamentary Labour Party is everyone, MPs and Lords. So they were crushed into that room and some of them couldn't even get in. And others sort of went in and then popped out again like champagne corks.

29:06And it was also apparently very, very hot. So I was just struck by the sheer numbers of them. And we were all thinking as they went in, I don't know who you are or you are. And that's on us. We ought to learn who they are. But also the cohort is so big and so new. And so young. And so young that occasionally you're thinking, am I interviewing an MP here or a journalist or a cleaner? Yes. I have absolutely no idea. Could just be a special advisor, for all you know. And so you've got to put yourself in the head of some 35-year-old kid who's got elected for Surrey West. I'm making that up. Normally Tory constituency.

29:44Tory constituency since 1066. Yes. And they've been elected by a majority of 32. Yeah. And they now find themselves in the position of getting to decide whether or not the prime minister stays or goes. Wow. In that context, it's not a surprise to me that they chose to save him. It's the cabinet that saved him. But it doesn't surprise me that MPs rallied. And we listened to the meeting, which lasted about an hour. When he walked in, there was a sustained applause of about 37 seconds. This is what we do. we time what we can hear. There was the occasional burst of laughter, a few more rounds of applause.

30:22When it was all over, the MPs then spilled out and they were not reluctant to share their opinions. Yes, I hear Bridget Philipson was doing the rounds, telling everyone that all was well with the Prime Minister. Yeah, which again was slightly different from the Tories when they used to have one or two official spokesmen and they were less keen to talk to. But on this occasion, they just popped out and said, right, who here wants a quote? and the story I was told was the meeting began with a mutinous air but Starmer gave such a good speech that he won the audience around. It's very hard to imagine him doing that.

30:56No, and also people laughing at his jokes apparently. I know, it's unbelievable, isn't it? The only problem for Starmer is that the shot that was taken of him leaving the Houses of Parliament, I mean, we're going to get onto this in just a minute because we're talking about how the king appears to have thrown his brother under a bus, But it was reminiscent of one of those car shots of Andrew McBadwin's, just looking slightly puffy in the face and weary. Yeah, in my sketch I compared him to Rubble in a suit. Carl saying that he might be more effective without McSweeney is interesting because Helena Kennedy said the same thing on Newsnight, that McSweeney had such control that Keir Starmer wasn't the man who she knew.

31:38And I think that we shall test that. We shall see if that is correct. But it is true that under McSweeney, any hint of rebellion was crushed. Think about, as Carl mentioned, how they handled Andy Burnham, just very coldly denying him the opportunity to run. Yes. Was that a wise thing? It's probably cost them the by-election in Gorton. If Burnham had run, OK, it would be regarded as your voting for a critic at the Prime Minister, but they would have kept the seat. Yeah, not least because Galloway has not stood a candidate, as was feared. Right. So there's a case for saying that actually listening to your colleagues and involving the decision making can lead to greater unity.

32:18And Andy Burnham gave a word salad statement at the Resolution Foundation saying that he feels this government has drawn a line. And taken Britain into this new political era and shown the different thinking required to relieve unsung Britain from the cost pressures it faces. For instance, the decision to re-nationalise rail is a prime example of that, and I think something the government should talk about more, and also bring pace and focus to lowering the cost of other of life's essentials. To do that requires stability, and I make my own call for that today across the Labour Party. Of course, stability comes from greater unity.

33:09And that would be helped by a more inclusive way of running the party. But recent events makes that now feel possible. Britain's most ordinary man talking their utter gibberish. And on that word unity, the thing all cabinet ministers almost have been saying since is the choice now is unity or division. Right. And in his speech, Starmer apparently really hit out at reform, suggesting to MPs that the choice they now face is between unity around Kyr and the country versus we fall apart and reform wins. Now, I'm not so sure that reform is as terrifying a proposition to the average voter as it is to a Labour MP.

33:59But that strategy has one very big problem. What if the by-election in Gorton is won by a Green? Yes. Not by reform? Yes. What if the choice is not Labour versus fascism, but Labour versus communism? Yes. And communism turns out to be more popular. Again, do they have the intellectual dexterity to respond to that? For the moment, they're doubling down on it's us or Nigel Farage. I'm not sure that's the only choice the public has. Next, we're going to be discussing why Charles III is more than happy to cooperate with the police in their inquiries into his brother.

34:49Camilla, bring us up to speed with what's happening with the royal family. OK, so Prince William's in Saudi Arabia. We'll just part that because there's been some suggestion that he shouldn't probably be there fraternising with somebody who may be associated with the murder of a journalist. But put that to one side. We had the Prince and Princess of Wales yesterday issuing a statement saying that they were deeply concerned about what had emerged in the Epstein files. We then discussed yesterday, didn't we, Thames Valley Police, saying that they wanted to have a look at new information that emerged, that the former Duke of York may have shared sensitive documents with Epstein within minutes of receiving them in his role as trade envoy.

35:31There was also a separate story about how he and Jeffrey Epstein had entertained three women named Sue, Sarah and Vera, who appeared to have been from Romania and Russia, at Buckingham Palace in 2010, so that's post-conviction, while the late Queen was up in Balmoral. That is all being examined by the police, and now the King has come forward with a statement which has said the following. The King has made clear in words and through unprecedented actions his profound concern are allegations which continue to come to light in respect of Mr Mountbatten-Windsor's conduct. While the specific claims in question are for Mr Mountbatten-Windsor to address, if we are approached by Thames Valley Police, we stand ready to support them as you would expect.

36:21As was previously stated, Their Majesty's thoughts and sympathies have been and remain with the victims of any and all forms of abuse. So in other words, what the king is saying there is, yes, the royals will help to cooperate with any police inquiries. That's significant because previously any statements have sort of consigned Andrew's behaviour to his private sphere. This is what he did in his private life. And at the end of the day, we can't really take account for how he conducted himself, who he had friendships with, who he sent emails to on personal accounts. But this has now entered the public sphere because of the suggestion that he may have behaved inappropriately while he was a trade envoy, and that was a role that he carried out on behalf of the royal family.

37:12He was then a working royal and on behalf of the government, and actually on behalf at the time, queen and country. So that puts it into a completely different category. I also think, by the way, the king has been moved to respond because he keeps on being heckled in the street. Charles, how long have you known about Andrew and Edson? I don't like people heckling the royals. No. I don't think it should be done. Well, to be fair, I think we should also clarify that in both the two most recent instances, these are members of Republic. Yes. The anti-monarchy campaign group. Who show up to almost everything the royals do.

37:50And every royal event I've covered, there has been a small group of protesters who've been shouting. So this is partly about what the media chooses to notice is said to royals. But also, in the same way that I don't like people storming churches in a protest, unless the royal in question has been directly accused of something, I think people should accept that when they are in public performing their function, there is a sacred quality to that. They're not there for you, for the heckler to heckle. They are there for the public. They are doing something for the public. And in that moment, I really believe you shouldn't do things like that.

38:31I think the growing problem for the king and Prince William is that there is now scrutiny of the late Queen Elizabeth II's behaviour in all this. And so this woman's legacy, this icon of the last two centuries legacy is in danger of being sullied, even though they have gone to great lengths to cast Andrew adrift. They've done everything they can possibly do within their power. They have taken away his birthright. He is no longer a prince, as we're seeing. It's weird in these statements to see them refer to him as Mr. Mr. Mountbatten-Windsor. They've consigned him to a life of solitude and contemplation up in Norfolk.

39:14They've said, we don't want to see you at public events. We don't even want you at private events. The king has said to his brother, don't come for Christmas. Thank you very much. So they've done everything that they can and now still questions persist about what they knew and when they knew it. So now we're exhumating the 12 million pound settlement that was given to Virginia Giffray. who was Andrew's chief accuser. He denies any wrongdoing, should state that. Why did the late Queen give her so-called favourite son this money? Should she have? And did the royals know that he was behaving in a manner that, let's be honest, wasn't befitting somebody in the family that he was born into with the status that he had, with the privileges he enjoyed?

40:03In general, have you just turned a blind eye while this errant royal has abused his position. And so this attempt to cauterise everything, it's not working. Yes, they've stopped the bleeding, but the questions persist him. And this is the problem, right? This excavation of the late Queen's memory is reminiscent of when they dug up poor Pope Formosus and put him on trial. And the problem with that is the person who is deceased cannot defend themselves, so it's unjust. but also it's always a recognition, an implicit recognition, that the person trying them failed to stop something from happening when that person was alive.

40:45Yes. So whatever responsibility the late queen bears for all of this, why did no one advise her otherwise? Why didn't society call her out for doing it at the time? Yeah. Because she'd served an unblemished record of more than 70 years on the throne and she was in her 90s and she was ill. So we decided to let this one go. Yeah. In which case that's as much on us as it is on her. And it's too easy and as well as disrespectful to put someone's memory on trial like that. So I do resent this idea that only the Queen was ever responsible for her son's behaviour. Yes. The Duke of Edinburgh was renowned for being somebody who didn't suffer fools gladly.

41:32and that would make his own opinions about his own children's behaviour extremely and explicitly clear. Why is it just on Elizabeth II? Did Prince Philip step in at any point when his second son was being nicknamed Randy Andy and Air Mars Andy and say, look, we knew he took great offence at Fergie's behaviour, but I don't understand why now the Queen is the only parent in the dock. And also the firm is renowned for being controlling and Fergie certainly complained about this when she joined it, that she felt she had no control of her own life, that she suddenly found herself living an almost impoverished existence with very little money and being told what to do and where to go.

42:14Well, where was that kind of corporate control when Andrew was allegedly inviting ladies from East Europe to the palace, doing his own bit for European integration? But why at that point did this infamous firm not say, why are you doing this? And you can't. This is my point. Don't try and pin it on one person who is deceased and can't defend themselves. Yes. It seems to be an indictment of something much bigger about how the royal family was run. But that doesn't help them either if they're found to have institutionally failed. The other woman in the dock, in fact, the only woman who's ever been in the dock when it comes to Jeffrey Epstein's horrendous crimes was Gillade Maxwell, who yesterday spoke to the Republican congressman James Comer via video stream.

43:03She was sat behind an inordinately large table in front of what looked like the partitions of a hospital room. It was an extremely odd setting. She was dressed in beige prison garb, looked as if she had put on a little bit of weight, Tim. Maybe she's been bench pressing in prison, who knows? But we don't often hear from her. Let's have a listen to what she had to say. Miss Maxwell, were you a close friend and confidant of Jeffrey Epstein? I would like to answer your question, but on the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer this question and any related questions. My habeas petition is pending in the Southern District of New York.

43:45I therefore invoke my right to silence under the Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. Let the record reflect that Ms. Maxwell has invoked the Fifth Amendment against self-incrimination. Ms. Maxwell, please be very clear. Are you declining to answer the question put to you solely on the ground that you believe the answer will incriminate you? I invoke my Fifth Amendment right to silence. As her lawyers have acknowledged, she doesn't want to say anything that contradicts what's in the Epstein files, because that could be a charge of perjury. And she hasn't actually seen them. And she hasn't actually seen them.

44:23And secondly, they're quite open that they are happy, she is happy, to exonerate Bill Clinton and Donald Trump so long as she gets clemency. Yes. And what does that actually mean in practice? Does that mean a presidential pardon because Donald Trump appeared to rule that out earlier? Right. But through all of this, Ghislaine Maxwell has her own appeal upcoming. Yes. So you've got to remember that. Her eye is on the prize of getting out of here as soon as possible. So the wisest path towards doing that is don't say anything. Yes. So she's taken the fifth on legal advice, and I think we can all understand that.

44:59Having said all that, I would like to hear her testimony about what she did know about Clinton and Trump and indeed Andrew. But would it be reliable? It's always the problem, isn't it, with taking the testimony of someone who's been convicted for the trafficking of minors. is anything she said going to be 100 % believed by the people who hear it? Also, we have got the Clintons testifying, which promises to be blockbuster. Yeah. So let's look forward to that great moment. And we will be back with more, including PMQs. Going to be a fiery one, isn't it? PM on the ropes. Do we think Badenock's going to land more punches?

45:36I'll be there to take out the gum shield and apply some sponges. We'll be back tomorrow, 5pm.

45:44Thank you.