Starmer humiliated as Burnham demands rape gang leader is deported

0:04The Telegraph.

0:08Why can't Keir Starmer deport a Rochdale grooming gang leader who's now free on the streets of Britain? That's a question Andy Burnham is asking. Plus we hear from comedian and impressionist Matt Ford about the great characters and voices of British politics. Welcome to The Daily Tea with me Camilla Tominey and me Tim Stanley.

0:39Tim, what a match last night. Did you watch it? No, I didn't. But I know Britain won. Britain? England. England. England. England. England. Poor Congo. Do you know who the captain of the England team is, Tim? It is... It is Harry Bain. Kane. I know it's Kane. You're just making it up. Yes. Do you know... You can't escape the ruddy thing. I mean, I always want England to lose because that way everyone will stop talking about football. Stop here. If we lose, we'll continue to talk about football. We'll have a collective nervous breakdown. And Mr Bain, stroke Kane, do you know how many of the goals he scored?

1:16All four of them. All two of them. All two of them. Well done, you. Good for him. OK, well done. Do you know if the DRC scored any goals? They scored one. Yes, they did. Yes. Do you have any view on the penalty that was disallowed or the VAR decision-making on it? I do not. No, no, OK. Let's just leave it there. We await the next match, which is where? It's being hosted by America. It's in Mexico. I think what should happen is that Britain should force everyone to watch Wagner's Ring Cycle for a week so that everyone can feel how it feels to be me. OK, fine. Fair enough. By the way, Wagner's Ring Cycle sounds positively filthy, but I know it's not.

1:59Right. No, it is in places. Is it? Right. Coming up next week, a study of Wagner. Those sexy Rhinemaidens. Right. Talking about people who have Wagner playing in their heads as he enters a room, Peter Mandelson. Peter Mandelson, yes. Yes. So Camilla Turner, our esteemed colleague, she's the political editor of the Sunday Telegraph, has got quite the ruddy scoop here. A secret dossier compiled by a former MI6 intelligence officer claims that Mandelson was considered a privileged contact by Russian intelligence, codenamed Project Fish. Oh. Moscow's spy masters regarded the disgraced peer as, quote, one of the most significant Russian intelligence services achievements in manipulating UK politics over the last 30 years.

2:45This was compiled by Christopher Steele, former head of MI6's Russia desk. He was also linked to the whole Trump-Russiagate thing, too, alleging that Mandelson was first contacted by the KGB shortly after the fall of the Berlin Wall. So he was a communist in his youth, but this is actually post-communism. Now, it should be said that the allegation here is that the Russians were interested in him. Yes. It's not suggesting that he passed things directly on to the Russians. No. But given the loose lips that we know that Mandelson has that were exposed by the Epstein files, we were all wondering, has Mandelson ever posed a security problem for this country?

3:30Yes. And of course, this revelation taps into that. Doesn't help him, does it? It comes after Keir Starmer has announced his resignation. So to some extent, the salience of Mandelson is passing us by. Nonetheless, it is a reminder that a man at the very top of government was considered reckless, not just by the British, but if Christopher Steele is correct, also by foreign actors. Project Fish. Project Fish. Is that reflecting the slippery nature of the chap? Try and grab one. It just jumps out of your hands. Extraordinary. God, if I was codenamed, I'd be so disappointed to be called Project Fish.

4:07Yeah. I mean, obviously, what we now need to know is who knew in Whitehall if this was going on, who knew? Who knew? Who knew what and why? Who did and why did it not come up during betting for his appointment as ambassador to the United States? Shall we get on to Andy Burnham intervening on deportation of the grooming gang leader who is about to be released from prison? His name is Shabir Ahmed. He's 73. It is quite understandably caused a degree of outrage, not just that this man is being released from prison, because as well as raping young girls. He was the ringleader of a rape gang. He's being released earlier than his sentence, which of course has caused a huge amount of upset and consternation.

4:52And now it emerges that he cannot be deported for several reasons. First of all, he's been stripped of his British citizenship, but the Pakistanis won't take him back. And second of all, he can't be deported because under a 1971 piece of legislation, you're basically, you get some immunity from deportation if you arrived in the UK before 1973. Yes, correct, yes. Regardless of any of the legislations that's in place, isn't this case is basically emblematic of something? I appreciate this nitty-gritty that lawyers can fight over till the cows come home and all the rest of it. but could there be a better or indeed worse symbol of the failure of border control in this country that a man who is allowed to come into Britain in the 70s presumably as a kind of, I think at the time there were lots of immigrants from the Murpuri region because of dam burst and the British government took pity on them and there was a huge influx of immigrants from Pakistan who came to the UK.

5:58A lot of those people settled here didn't entertain the idea of doing anything criminal, have subsequently had children and grandchildren, and that's great. But individuals like this that represent the absolute worst of the immigration system, you do have to ask yourself, if you cannot deport a man that was the ringleader of a rape gang and actually raped young girls because of the whole case being tied up in legislative. And by the way, ECHR not, because he can claim his right to exist here under Article 7 of the Convention. If you can't deport Ahmed, what's the point of any of our border control system?

6:45Yes. Well, Andy Burnham has said, like everyone, I want this vile criminal out of the country. And that's language that other Labour figures have used as well. He said victims must come first. I will ask the Home and Foreign Secretaries to review all possible options and they should consider nothing is off the table. This is one of those scenarios where the existence of the loophole shouldn't take people by surprise. No. They should know, and we're talking decades ago, and that loophole should have been corrected by now. And also the public will be thinking, just do whatever you need to do, pass whatever law you need to pass in order to make this happen.

7:21But we have reported on this programme occasions of an asylum seeker who actually wanted to return to the United States. Yes. A guy from the US, funny enough. Right. Found it hard to get deported as if the British state didn't really want to do it. And this raises a question about the state of asylum, how safe and secure it is and what the British people think about it. Now, Burnham's views on immigration have evolved somewhat. So prior to the leadership race, prior to Makerfield, for example, he supported ending the ban on immigrants receiving benefits or housing before they get settled status.

7:59During the leadership contest slash by-election, he's taken a tougher stance, indicating that he thinks net migration needs to fall further and supporting the general direction of Shabana Mahmood's policies. Can I just caveat that by saying that Makerfield is 97 % white? Right. Carry on. But of course there are voices within Labour that have been critical of Mahmood's reforms, including Angela Rayner and also Mike Tapp, the minister. Who got wrapped over the knuckles by Keir Starmer last week. Right, because Shibana Mahmood wants to make it harder for people to stay in the country and he's saying that care workers should be exempted from that.

8:35He discussed it in public. But we know where that led under Boris Johnson. It led to loads of dependents coming. And indeed, I very recently wrote a story saying a load of people were coming here on student visas and then working in care homes completely unvetted and without the relevant experience and nothing's really been done about it. It's a story that was based in Teesside. But wherever you look, Tim, the visa system is being abused. Well, and the BBC has an astonishing story on this. It has discovered a top people smuggler, someone who's considered one of the kings of the gangs, currently living in Leicester and believed to be applying for asylum.

9:09His name is Tuama Jamal. And to quote the BBC, he was given a five-year jail sentence in France in 2016, where authorities described him as one of the most successful people smugglers ever caught. Prosecutors said that the Iraqi Kurd, aged 36 at the time, had earned up to£100 ,000 a week for moving illegal immigrants across the channel. The BBC's contact got in touch with him and claims that he is driving without a license and making good money moving cigarettes from a warehouse. He said to the contact, no one touches us here, meaning Leicester, even the police won't stop you. Now, here's an interesting detail that jumped out to me in this story.

9:50Does this sound familiar? the BBC searched for companies in the area that might be linked to Jamal and found two mini-marts in the village of Blabby. Blabby has just 6 ,000 people in it and yet it can mysteriously support two mini-marts which are brightly coloured, sell vapes and sweets. Again, does that sound familiar? Yes, it does. And are located, get this, just metres away from each other. Wow. Isn't that interesting? Overall, the BBC claims to have found more than 20 active people smugglers currently living in the United Kingdom, some with overseas convictions and some claiming asylum here.

10:32Yes. Using false names. Can I make two observations? Because there's a link between the Ahmed case and what you've just described. In the case of Ahmed, surely there should be a notwithstanding clause added to the 1971 legislation saying, OK, if you have come here before 1973, then you can't be deported under this legislation unless you have committed a crime. Because people are saying, oh, well, hang on a minute. You know, if you tear up this legislation, what's going to happen to the people who came here on Windrush, for instance? There's been another claim from the left. Oh, we can't deport him back because then we'd have to take Shamima Begum.

11:11No, I'm sure we could see isolated cases. We can take this particularly heinous individual and say, no, thank you very much, and actually threaten Pakistan. If she wanted to, the Home Secretary could say, we are granting no more visas until you take this chap back. And that's the end of it. Second of all, in the case that you've just described in Blaby, why on earth, if somebody has got a criminal record from another country, in this case, France, is he even being considered for asylum? Well, the reason for that is that since Brexit, we no longer have data sharing with the EU. Well, we could have.

11:47So when you come into this country, you are fingerprinted and a criminal record check is done, but only on the UK database. So we don't necessarily know if someone has a criminal record in mainland Europe. Right, but we know now, so thanks to a little bit of journalistic endeavour, it appears that a man claiming asylum in the UK may in fact be a people smuggler. If the Home Office could stand that up, I presume with a phone call to Paris, hello, we've got this bloke seeking asylum here. His name is X, his date of birth is Y. Did you ever imprison him for people smuggling? We, yes we did. Okay, back to the Home Office.

12:26Sorry mate, you're out. Yes. But then, this is what happens, of course. Human rights lawyers say, no, but hang on. You've got to consider this man's human rights. And then we get into a circle of hell. So, I mean, it's all very well, by the way, Burnham intervening now on this. conspicuous by his absence entirely from the debate about rape gangs when he was an actual northern MP and indeed mayor of Greater Manchester. Second of all, the other thing conspicuous by its absence and is what I can do for Britain's speech was one solitary mention of the word immigration, Tim. We've got to remember he will inherit a parliamentary Labour Party which is pro-immigration.

13:09Proof of that is they're now working on an immigration bill and MPs are pressuring Shabana Mahmood to introduce measures which will soften elements of it. So she is in some ways toughening things up, giving only temporary protection to refugees and doubling the time that migrants have to wait to get permanent residency. But it is now suggested that the government will open up safe and legal routes, which will be sponsored by organizations in this country. So if you're a business, if you're a charity, and you support asylum seekers, and you want some here, you put the money up. And I think it's for a year, they will be sponsored by you.

13:44And this is the program which runs in Canada, and it's been quite successful. One thing it's good at is it's very good at making sure people get into work rather than living off the state. Nonetheless, if we don't know the numbers at which this will be capped, there is an obvious risk they run that this will just become a new route for people to get into the country. And critics are saying, well, look, certain communities, certain universities, etc., are going to apply for certain people from certain communities and therefore the risk just opens up again, which is why I'm wondering if we're going to get to a point where the public comes around to the view that we just need a moratorium on this.

14:22We just need to stop because of all the high-profile cases. Almost there. Well, just people staying in the country because of a fondness for British chicken nuggets. Charles Hymers, our colleague, did that story. Bizarre decision-making by tribunal judges. The system itself being abused. We did the whole expose, which involved our very amazing socials editor, Nada, who lifted the lid on just how easily smuggling gangs and others are circumventing the system, literally telling people coming abroad, oh, you can just get away with what you like in the UK. You know, it's an absolute free for all. And we've got to remember that much of this is coming from a criminal enterprise.

15:01Yes, of course. Which is the key point. So if you look at the, if you chart asylum in this country over the last sort of 25 years, it hits a peak at the beginning of new labor. It then comes right the way down to the end of the labor government. You've got to give them credit for that. It then starts to climb right back up under the Tories to a historic high. We're now at around 82 ,000 applications for asylum in the UK in 2025. But since 2018, about a third of those making an application have come via small boats. Yes. That is an illegal exercise, which is a great risk to the people doing it.

15:35It is human trafficking. Yes, it is. It's not asylum seeking. No. It shouldn't be treated as legal. And the people who do it should be treated in a different way from those who come through safe and legal routes. And of course, crucially, we know nothing about them. So it obviously increases the risk that you're importing criminality into the country. Final point, as I was doom scrolling on the train on the way home last night, Milton Friedman popped up giving his speech in America about why they didn't mind immigration back at the beginning of the last century. And that was because it was immigration to work.

16:09Even back then he was saying, we can't have immigration to welfare. We can have immigration to work to plug our own job shortages and skill shortages. Immigration to welfare, immigration to asylum hotel. Yeah. No. Well, the irony is, it's because people always say NHS couldn't function without mass migration. in which case that is the idea there is that immigration is propping up welfare. But in reality, because people bring dependents, it's actually placing more stress upon the NHS and welfare. So this is the kind of calculation that Burnham is going to have to confront. And I think just being all vibes-y and doing TikToks in the back of a black cab, I just, I don't think it answers these very difficult questions.

16:52Tim, we've had a very serious week. I had a very tense evening as I was watching the football that you were studiously avoiding. Shall we just finish on something a little light-hearted? Why did you have a tense evening? You can't just say that. Well, because if you'd watched the match, it was 70 minutes of hell. Oh, I see. Right, OK, OK. It was 70 minutes of hell. Right. I was going to ask if you were sleeping in the car again. Well, kind of, but that's another story. It was 70 minutes of hell. Then Harry Kane scored. Then we had to... It was one all... There's no point speaking to you about it because you just don't understand the beautiful game.

17:24It's describing algebra to a dog. It means nothing to me. Or just explaining algebra to me. Explain it to me, yeah. Indeed. But should we have just a little something light? Matt Ford's going to come in and try out some of his best impressions on us.

17:50We are joined now by the comedian and impersonator Matt Ford who Tim will take on because Tim likes to do an impersonation not as well as Matt though No, not nearly as well No, I know, but Matt can't do journalism as well as we can do it You're irritating office dynamics where you have one thing you do and everyone says, do that. I know, but hang on. It's a very bad Donald Trump. I'm sure it's good. It's horrible. That's the extent of it, OK? It's really good. It's good. Can I just confirm that people in the office don't think you can just do one thing. We think that you are the Swiss army knife of telegraph staff.

18:29I can do Rachel Reeves. But anyone who can do a Dalek can do Rachel Reeves. He can do sketches. He sings. He dances. He can do writing. We do have a guest. He can do thinking. Matt. He does it all. When did you first discover that you were good at imitating people? I think primary school age, started doing footballers and teachers. Yes. So I grew up in Nottingham. I'd watch lots of videos of Brian Clough and Stuart Pearce, and I was watching Match of the Day at the time. So John Motson, the commentator, was one of the first ones I could do, Camilla, as well, you might remember. I do. I remember his jacket.

19:02His donkey jacket. That's right, the sheepskin jacket. It's the FA Cup final. You know, that's the thing. The island of Hines is nowhere going to work. Nowhere going to work. Obviously, I was like nine years old, so that was sort of fine. And then the older you get, the more I got into politics. And then Tony Blair, I think, was probably the first prime minister that I could do, by the way. And it's not just about, and you'll appreciate this, by the way, as a very talented journalist. You know, it's not just about getting the voice. It is about what they would say, and often it's about the mannerisms too.

19:31And I think with Tony Blair, you know, the eyes. Yes. That's so interesting. When you were doing that, I sense you're doing a slightly older Blair there. Yeah. Because impersonations do change over time. So my one size fits all Trump is actually Trump 2016. Rosie O'Donnell. It's 2016 Trump. But Trump actually doesn't speak like that anymore. And proper impressionists, I notice, they do update the impression as the person changes. That's very true. Because Blair's throat now is a lot drier at the back. You can hear that, actually. So you have to change like that. And particularly the way that he says the word party.

20:09It's so weird. It's a weird northern party. And he was always quite camp anyway. So you can bring all those. But it's also the mannerisms. I was with Michael Gove recently and he still does this thing of putting his thumb, now look. Yes, you're right. And he internates at certain points of the conversation. I suppose some people are much easier to impersonate than others. We've tried our best with Keir Starmer, who I'm sure you're going to miss. You're going to miss Keir Starmer because isn't he one of the easier ones to impersonate? He's kind of... I think with all of them, you have to find whatever the hook is.

20:45And I think I always thought he had, like, a bit of a squeaky thing. And again, it's about capturing... Don't wait for people to see it. That concept... It's like you're on these years in the air. It's just a very... Of course, Telegraph, very important news, many other important newspapers, pictures of that at the mirror. But I think the thing we want to talk about, it's about getting very upright. That left hand was always slightly pursed in that position. Yes, the chef's kiff's move that he liked to do. And that, always looking as if just slightly on the edge of the nerves. And then you can play around.

21:17And often, often it would go down. The vowel would get drawn out. They're wrong. And then a lot of the Labour ones have quite adenoidal Ed Milband, you know, a similar, you know, police. You have to get the faces as well. A lot of them seem to be involving mad-eyed stares. I mean, it's so funny that you've gone through a repertoire there basically of a load of weirdos. Who once run the country or tried to run the country. I mean, are any of these people ordinary voiced? Yes, but some people, like David Cameron, difficult. Well, I don't know. I want to be tribute, by the way. I had a bloody good go.

22:03The way he would gesticulate, you know, like that. I loved it when he was trying to pump atmosphere into that 2015 election. Having a go, having a punt. I think I'm bloody up for it, actually. I'm bloody well at it. But you, Laid, the whole third-way era didn't make it harder to do impersonations because like with Nick Click, there was a generic quality to politicians by the late 2000s. They were all in quite a narrow part of what I would call this sort of dartboard, and even Rishi Sunak. Yes, another one. You know, slightly more nasally. Actually, I also thought it was a slight passive-aggressive way that he sounded, actually.

22:41And obviously you're dialling it up a little bit because he's quite close to Tony Blair. It's all enunciate in the same way, so it's front of the mouth a lot of it. Yes. And then Blair obviously goes back. I think a lot of it is also how do they think And sort of replicating the mindset As much as the voice Trump obviously is jazz Tim I heard what you did And I think it's pretty good I think it is and it's probably one of the better ones We've seen and the thing that he does now I don't know if you may have noticed People tell me that they notice I don't know if they do but It's talking to yourself during it Maybe we don't know we're podcasting I never knew what they tell me it's like a radio I don't get it, but I do it.

23:21Probably the best podcast of the other than. He will now, he's more wistful now. Yes, yes. And he will say things. He's almost energetic. Some of the state visit when he got up with the king and he goes, Writers like Shakespeare and Churchill, the best writers we've ever seen and probably ever will. There's a kind of, yeah, wistfulness has crept in me. Yeah. Someone said to me that to understand him, you've got to imagine him communicating with Italian-American foreman in New York in the 1980s. It's all bravado. It's all projection. It's all that sort of thing. And there is a certain place and time.

24:01Do you make a study of region? And so, for instance, Starmer. I've always had a little bit of sympathy for Starmer because I'm from West Kent. He's from East Surrey. And we do talk that way. We're very nasal. We're all up there. Are you sort of conscious of In the different parts of the United Kingdom The different ways that people speak And can you hear it and immediately be able to identify I think you can obviously identify Regional accents I think in politics as well things are cultural So that that Clinton brought in So as not to point and look aggressive Blair starts doing it Then they all start doing it And now football pundits do it You watch Sky Sports News They will do that People just go oh that's what a politician does And I'm a politician and then it's the same as any workplace.

24:44You kind of take your lead from at the top. Yeah, it's the same thing as newsreaders constantly going like this and nobody really does it in real life. No, that's right. And they all talk like that. It was six o 'clock this morning when the Daily Telegraph podcast started broadcasting. And you're just like, why have they all ended up sounding like that? That's right, yeah. Like cultures just creep in and you sit with football, yeah, you know, at the end of the day, you know, I thought we had a good second half and yeah, the gaffer said a word, it's on to the next one, you know, we don't take anything for granted.

25:08And then they all just... Yeah, there's a melody. There's certainly melody to football commentary, which is just so spot on. But when it comes to, let's get on to Andy Burnham, who, I mean, regionally is confusing because he's an Evertonian scouser who is claiming to be a Mancunian and now representing a constituency near Wigan. He's in the no man's land between Liverpool and Manchester, basically. The big suburban, neither one thing nor the other. Indeed. So he's not quite Noel and Liam. It's a gentle accent. It's not Silla Black. It's a gentle accent. Who is this guy? It is very gentle. And it's that part of England is fascinating.

25:45I worked in Warrington for a while. Those places that are slightly in between. Warrington has a strong identity around rugby league, but they are very protective. So if I put something out on social media, if you'd want to do an Andy Burnham impression, it's basically Scouse. But a bit softer people say, he's not Scouse. I'm not saying he's Scouse. People are very different. He's a Woody backer. He's this, that and the other. The small differences are really magnified in those places where people are very clear about where they're from. But he definitely sounds more Scouse than Mank. Like, just with shorthand, his vowels are more, you know, nothing I love more, Camilla, than, you know, having a few beers with the lads.

26:20And, you know, he's good at doing that. But one of the things he does is, and I think Labour politicians struggle with this, it's almost like when they're being lighthearted, they feel slightly guilty about it. They're like, well, I can't be seen to be having too much fun because there are people living in poverty. So I need to quickly get back to being serious. and they don't have that sort of middle transitional phase that allows them to just go from levity, then something in the middle, and then seriousness. So you get these handbrake turns of, you know, I love watching England last night when Harry Kane scored, you know, great moment with a few beers when in the air, but, you know, let me be clear, if the Iranians carry on, I will use nuclear force.

26:54Yes. Well, hang on, there needs to be some middle language here. Somehow Richard Maidley's perfected that for the daytime TV audience, right? Like on one hand, you're talking about like a mass murder somewhere in Middlesbrough. The next you're talking about, you know, different bras. I mean, politicians do have to shapeshift. Yes. And we've been discussing Andy Burnham since Andy Burnham became a thing again. And what we find interesting about him is, I mean, he's all over the place. It can be everything to anyone and nothing to anyone if he wants to as well. It's just who is this guy? It's like quite hard to pin down.

27:29and therefore to impersonate him as prime minister is going to be really interesting. I think you pick up on, I watch so much of it, just because I enjoy it. I'm sad. I like watching PMQs. I like watching Parliament. I like watching the speeches in full because I think sometimes when the media will pick out things, I think that wasn't necessarily what I took from that. And I enjoy watching the full hour-long thing with the questions, if you get questions, the questions at the end. Andy Burnham always struck me as someone asks a lot of questions while he's talking. And I think that can either sound, can make you sound sort of collegiate and open-minded, or it can make you sound unsure.

28:02And it creeps in as a habit. So you notice him say, look, I think it's the scales of justice that need to be levelled up in this country, isn't it? And, you know, we need to bring people with us, don't we? And I think Britain can be fairer, can't it? And when you start asking yourself questions, it's habit forming, isn't it? And then you can't stop, can you? Yes, he does ask himself the question. He's asking the country. That can sound unsure if you're not careful. Oh, my goodness. That's going to be interesting. Whereas Blair wouldn't do that. It was certain. Big full stops. Yes. Absolutely not.

28:31Ask a Tory question, get a Tory answer. He was so good at driving those words like a skewer. Whereas Starmer trails off. The Tories are wrong. It doesn't allow your troops to know when to cheer. It's not a punctuation point in the same way. Yes. Yes. One thing I admire about Burnham is under Blair, a traditional developed in speech writing where everyone spoke in really short sentences. Those bullet points. Bullet points. You know, grass is green. Yeah. Mountains are tall. But not even that. It would be grass greener. Yes. Mountains taller. This valley's deeper. This is the record of 10 years of a Labour government and don't let the Tories tell you opposite.

29:11Yeah. Yeah. Whereas when I've seen Burnham speak the few times that he has spoken in public, it is far more poetic. He does ramble a bit more. And I think I appreciate that because I want to see proper paragraphs return to political speech. Yes, detail. Well, that's your bread and butter. Indeed. Another Kentish man is Nigel Farage. Now, that is a voice that has seen action. And it is mellowed by countless cigarettes and drams of whiskey. Is that a fun one to do? I think he's got a great voice. I think it's a broadcasting voice. I just think it's amazing. Yes. You hear him. He's got that low rate.

29:52And he has. I can't quite access it, but it's like it's that deep tobacco. Well, look, frankly, you need to hit those lower bits. The government got absolutely no idea. And he's very good. The hands are up, absolutely no idea. Not talking to the BBC. Absolutely clear. He really knows how to punctuate. He's got absolutely no idea. The government are clueless, by the way. The police, not much better. But he's strange, isn't he? Because at periods that demand seriousness, he starts chuckling. And at periods that... demand a lack of seriousness. He's very serious. So sometimes he gets it wrong, doesn't he?

30:31He kind of like guffaws it himself within speech. Are you able to replicate that, Matt? He is. I mean, that is kind of like his political judgment then being exposed, I guess, is that he doesn't get the tone right. And that shows... He's sort of seen as this great communicator. When he's under pressure, I mean, this whole thing about the donation, none of your business. Could have spent it on Ferraris. Yes. What? Why? I don't think it's just because he was talking to Nick Ferrari and the word kind of slaps him in the head. Of all the things to throw out to the public that you could be spending your money on, of all the things to say, Ferraris.

31:02I mean, I guess he's got a point, but it's not the best way to express that point. But I mean that his speech is often characterised by a little chuckle. He chuckles in the middle of what he's saying. He also tilts his head and does a mirthless grin. He goes, eh. Oh, yeah. And he's a quite frankly politician. Everything's quite frankly. Everything is quite frankly. Priti Patel is the ultimate. Quite frankly politician. But hers is a passive-aggressive, quite frankly. But she says it at the corner of her mouth. Quite frankly. That's such a good observation. Because he also does the boring thing, which no other politician has a heckle put down.

31:34You watch those reform rallies. When they get heckled, the word boring flashes up on the screens and you just go, boring! That's right. Boring! He often says it to the FT in Bloomberg. Boring! Occasionally to us, actually. Has any other political party had to have slides ready for heckles and a catchphrase? It's been a gift, actually, hasn't it, that most of the figures that we're talking about are men. How do you handle women? Quite difficultly, actually. Raina's the only one that sees so much fun, because you can do a big like that, do you know what I mean? I want a Secretary of State for the nighttime economy.

32:09I think you'd love to do it. Well, I could combine it with being a minister for vape. She's big like that. She's like a club, isn't she? I just want her to be Prime Minister so much. I do. I just want her on that first day at the lectern with a pair of sunglasses on, swigging from an Alka pop, smoking a vape because she thinks it looks healthy, admitting, I've got a **** between the eyes. Can we keep this quick? You've got to get a vet when you get elected. You've got a majority. What am I going to do? Not get a **** face? Come on, man. It's really interesting. I try and follow a breadth of people on social media, and lots of people on the right really like Angela Rayner.

32:45They do. Well, there's an authenticity to her. That's why. And a sense of fun. And that's why they didn't like people like Tony Blair, because Tony Blair is kind of doing the man of the people shtick, having been privately educated and secretly a Tory and yet pretending to be Labour. He was admirable. No, they admire his political skills. But I think people on the right just like people to be who they say they are. And the frustration, particularly with the Conservatives, is this whole talking right and governing left. They don't like the duplicity of that. So actually, you'd even get some figures on the right, myself included, even though I fundamentally disagreed with everything he said, apart from, funny enough, his closet support for Brexit, which he then abandoned.

33:25There's some admiration for somebody like Jeremy Corbyn because at least he believes what he believes. He's believed it for decades. He's not going to necessarily, apart from on the referendum, I must stress that, he's not going to shapeshift. But Matt didn't like him. Who didn't like him? Matt Ford. You weren't a fan. Too left wing for me. Matt, you tear up your membership card. Why do you love him? I'm not, I don't love him. Why have you got a crush on Corbyn? Oh my God, what sexy Jezza. Jesus, if you had read some of the copy I wrote about Corbyn back in the day. You walked away from the Labour Party over Jeremy Corbyn.

33:55The day he became leader, I left. Right, OK. Because I just thought. The day, you didn't even give him a chance. The moment he won, that was me. Because you were so opposed to him and his politics. I thought it was just completely outside of the Labour tradition. Really? And when you look at the way politics has gone, you know, you see in lots of ways. This is politics has become nastier and more abusive. And you could see all that coming with him and the way that the campaign had behaved. And I just thought, this isn't the Labour Party I joined. I'm a moderate centre-left Blairite, really. I mean, it's just completely outside of the tradition and the history of the party.

34:27He's not any sort of disciple or follower of Atlee or Bevan. He was completely outside of the patriotic tradition of the party that was strong on defence and tough on crime and pro-business. And I just thought, this isn't for me. and all the conspiracy stuff. Can I just state for the record, my lords, that I absolutely agree with you. Don't worry, no one... I'm not really saying that... I'm merely saying that I think people quite like people with a clarity of thought, even though those thoughts are, frankly, completely nuts. I do agree with that. And also, not liking him doesn't mean I don't understand his appeal or the desire that people have, that I understand the Labour desire to deal with inequality and unfairness in the world.

35:07I understand why people saw in Corbyn, even though I didn't myself, a way to make the world more equal, to right some injustices. I understand why people are desperate for hope. I mean, it's even more the case now. Well, they're buying Zach Polanski's snake oil. Have you got him under control? I'm working on him at the moment. He's got, it's not quite there, but obviously there's a slight lisp. And he will do a thing where it's more, again, and it's like the way he thinks and the way that he structures his answers is that people will say, you didn't pay tax and you're not on the electoral register.

35:43And they'll say, I'm really glad you asked me about that. And he'd be really, really pleased that someone's asking you. I'm sure he's delighted. That's really funny. Absolutely delighted. I think it's very interesting you're asking me about this and not Israel. The sort of pivot techniques reveal a lot. Yes. So the voice isn't quite that. And Davey, Matt, do you need to bother? Well, do you know what? His facial movements are very much like Morrissey. Oh. And actually, if you watch him, he has a similar facial structure to Morrissey. He will have these kind of anxiety faces. It's true. That are kind of very similar to, Theresa May had them.

36:17You really see these sort of emotions ripple across the countenance, you know, in a way that other politicians kind of hold it still a bit more. There's an interiority to Davey, which is surprising. I notice it sitting up in the press gallery and studying him. And one thing I've always noticed, he arrives alone. He always arrives alone. I'm not saying he's a lonely... I'm not saying there's something wrong with him. No, I just mean it's kind of... You know, normally a party leader walks in the show, but Davey just kind of just walks in and then goes out again. He's so mad. Yeah, he is, I think.

36:45He's quite a nice bloke, isn't he? He's a very nice man. He's a really nice bloke. He's a nice man, yeah. But I'm not sure the party's that keen. No, they're not. And the MPs are going off him. Yes, of course, because he's a bit of a clown. Matt, are you worried about the future of the left? I mean, all of this chopping and changing we heard in 2024 that apparently the grown-ups were back in charge. Seems that they weren't, actually. And we've got the coronation of Burnham coming, but do you think he's going to steady the ship? I think he'll steady the Labour Party for a bit. I think my main priority is always just the country.

37:16I'm Labour, I'm a Blair Act, because I think that's the best way to sort the country out. And I'm not interested in all the silly stuff that goes with politics. I'm not keen on the tribalism. I don't think Tories are bad people. I understand why people vote reform. I understand why people vote green. I understand why people like Corbyn. I may have very strong disagreements with those people. I just want a sensible, moderate, centre-left government that allows business to flourish and then does progressive things with the tax receipts. It's strong on defence, it's tough on crime, it gets the welfare bill down in the interest.

37:48I grew up on benefits. It is not a great way to live your life and it's not in the people's interests are on it. Now, there are some people who have profound disabilities that obviously have no other choice. But this idea that it's progressive, to have just people. I often think about this. You get one go at life. Yes. And what are you going to do with it? And is the government on your side or not? Is the government an enabling force or is it a restrictive force? So I always understood the conservative tradition of its perception of the state. I always just thought that markets fail and the state needs to intervene in things like health and education.

38:20Obviously, I want to privatise the police. You have to help people get on in life. Make their lives easier. Let them do nice things. These shouldn't be exotic dreams. This should be like the basic fundamental deal of being a British citizen. And also I think we need to have a conversation about who we are as a country, what we are and what we're not. And I don't think Labour or the Tories are having that conversation at the moment, which is Britain actually is an idea. I think America's much better at this. America isn't just a piece of land, it is an idea, it's a principle. It's highly contended.

38:51But have we really done that in Britain? Have we really said that if we want to protect, effectively, our sort of liberal institutions, then there are certain things we do not accept. And I think on the left, elements of the left have gone down a road of sort of individual identity politics that are completely counter to the collectivism and also just liking the place. I really, I'm a patriot. I really like England. I really like Britain. I think there are things in our past that are phenomenal, things that are less good. I don't really think any other country beats itself up in the same way that we do.

39:22No. I feel like you're doing an impersonation of Kemi Badenoch. I need to work on it I need to work on her voice but that's where my politics are so I sort of worry about the state of all the parties really whenever the Tories go down too far a route I think oh man this is going to distort politics it's going to get us away from talking about the things we should be really talking about and that's been the great shame I think of really post-crash politics is we've been completely distracted by the wrong things we could have used that time and that money it didn't have to be like this We've wasted a lot of time debating stuff that just wasn't even up for debate.

39:58And actually talking about things that the vast majority of people aren't interested in. No, exactly. You're quite right. Just going into culture wars and all sorts. Mind you, we had to do that because people were actually cancelled and things and they needed to be defended. But we did go down a number of rabbit holes over the last five to ten years, I think. You're going to be returning to the Edinburgh Fringe with a special run of the political party, which will include on August 9th, Anna Sawa, on August 15th, Stephen Flynn, on August 18th, Rachel Reeves, and on August the 20th, Malcolm Offord, that's the leader of Reform UK in Scotland.

40:28Do politicians as a whole like people doing impersonations of them? I think some like it. For some, it's proof they've arrived. So I worked on the... We started doing spitting image for YouTube and they're quite keen to be on it until they're on it. And then obviously, spitting image, so it's not going to be nice. So they then have to kind of pretend to like it. Anna Sawa, who I know, I was slightly... And partly because of the way the culture had gone in the last few years. I was sort of very aware that despite being working class, I'm a white man and impersonating a man who has a Pakistani-Scottish accent could be seen.

41:02So I texted him. I was like, is it all right if I do an impression of you? Yeah. Of course it is. Yeah, sure. Because he has two accents at the same time, you know. He's got both and you can hear the Scottish and the Pakistani. And it sounds great. No, I see to the First Minister, no, it's not the dame. He really likes it. When I did Blair to Blair, I mean, I remember doing William Hague to William Hague, and actually, one-on-one with these people, it's just the best character study. It's like sitting for a portrait. I'm this close to them. I never realised before I interviewed him that William Hague huns in between words.

41:35Camilla, you may have realised it, Tim, and maybe, Camilla, you have too. But I never realised the constant white noise. It's like the engine of a cruise ship. I just thought, man, I'd never noticed that on telly or any podcast. But one-to-one, and Keir Starmer has a sort of pouting thinking face that one-on-one, when I was asking him, his thinking face was kind of pursed. Yeah, brill cream advert. Yeah, slightly pouty. Wow. And you only notice that once a while. Zoolander, Gemma, the producer's sake. So it freaks them out a little bit, but I think they quite like the fact that that means they're culturally relevant.

42:14Finally, Matt, very quickly, you said you only had Angela Rayner in the kind of kit locker for female politicians. you've got to have a Rachel Reeves. Sort of. You know, the, ah! She's got those kind of really, like, London vowels. She's got quite middle-class consonants in London vowels. And as the sentence runs on, they basically escape. These are the spending commitments that we will commit to in the lifetime in the next parliament. Ah! It's slightly Janet Street Porter, isn't it? It is a bit Janet Street Porter. Oh, my goodness. Matt Ford, you're going to be in Edinburgh at the Fringe. Yes.

42:47Thank you for being in the stand-up show. With your new stand-up show as well. Go on, plug that. Stand-up. It's called Project Holy Moly. Yes. And it's an hour of topical impressions and some personal stuff about my health. Okay, great. All mixed together. Well, we're glad to see you in much better health than you had been. That's wonderful to hear. And thank you for joining us on The Daily Tea. Anytime. We'll be back tomorrow at 5pm with a Royal Tea special. A Harry and Meghan coming back to Blighty or not?

43:18Thank you.