Starmer under fire as Mandelson, Andrew and Epstein scandal explodes

0:28The Telegraph biographer Andrew Lowney. Welcome to The Daily Tea with me, Tim Stanley. And me, Camilla Tominy.

0:46Tim, there's a brilliant visual representation that you're very fond of when it comes to the extent of the Epstein files. The three million documents that have been released, if printed off and piled up on top of each other, would be akin to two Eiffel Towers. Sacre bleu. Funny enough, the French come out of this fine. It's the British that are in trouble, isn't it? That's correct. So there's two central figures we're going to focus on in today's Daily Tea. One is Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor. We'll get on to him a little later. And the other is the man, the Dark Lord, known as Peter Mandelson, who has had to fall on his sword in recent hours.

1:25And to be clear, this is not a question just of tittle tattle. It is turning into a study of how power functions in Britain and America through access, through getting access to people, being able to drop people's names, the relationships between very powerful people. and in so many cases people who have been linked to Epstein have tried to claim, I hardly knew this man. One suspects they've sat down with their lawyer and gone through when can it be proven I met them. But other than those occasions, I hardly knew the man. But what the documents have done is demonstrate that they knew him very, very well and had a very intimate relationship with him that seems to have opened doors.

2:05And there is one compelling piece of evidence that links Lord Mandelson to the former Duke of York. And that is why they are arguably implicated even more than others because many, many different names here, aren't they? Richard Branson, Bill Gates, Bill Clinton, Elon Musk. The list is endless. But what has incriminated both of these men so deeply is the fact that they had insisted that they had cut off contact with Jeffrey Epstein after he was put in prison for procuring a minor for prostitution. But actually we now have documentary evidence on both sides suggesting that that wasn't true and that they maintained not just contact but very fond and friendly relations actually.

2:53I think that's the critical thing. We shouldn't judge people who have just appeared once on a plane or been mentioned in an email because that doesn't imply either an intimate relationship or that they were in contact with him after his conviction. The really important thing is who is talking to Geoffrey in a very personal way after he's been imprisoned. The other thing that links both men is the fact that they appear to have taken quite a substantial amount of money from Geoffrey Epstein. Recollections may vary. Indeed. And Fergie is linked to Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor in that respect. And we'll get onto that in just a minute before we go into the latest revelations, which include the most intriguing photograph of Peter Mandelson in his underpants.

3:39It's hideous. Why would you be at somebody else's house? I mean, I was trying to think, like, would I go to breakfast or at my brother's house in my pants at any point? I just wouldn't do that. There is an issue here of pants etiquette. I think it's OK if it's a pair of boxer shorts. Is it? Especially boxer shorts that could pass as swimming shorts. Oh, you mean so tight trunks? Yeah. And also, if you're young and good looking, that helps too. If you've got a washboard stomach, you can wear whatever you like. Y-fronts though. But it's the middle-aged man in Y-fronts look. That's dad at home look.

4:19That's not man staying with someone who he barely knew. Yes, it does suggest a degree of comfort and a feeling of being at home, Shea Epstein. But anyway, we'll get on to the actual revelations in just a minute. Why this is important politically and why it is potentially extremely damaging to the Prime Minister Keir Starmer is why on earth, even when we knew half of this, did Keir Starmer think it was a good idea to appoint Peter Mandelson to the role of the UK's ambassador to the US? such a high-profile diplomatic position. Yes. When it was, I can't even describe it as an open secret. The timeline of Peter Mandelson's scandals is very well and openly documented, isn't it?

5:12Yes, it is, yes. Let's run through them to remind people of the career of the man who Keir Starmer appointed as ambassador to the United States. The first scandal is in 1998. He is obviously, at that point, occupying a very, very central role at the heart of Tony Blair's government. He is New Labour, yes. He is the emblem of New Labour. He is on the sofa in Tony Blair's sofa government next to Alastair Campbell and others. He has to resign from the role of Trade and Industry Secretary because it was revealed that an undeclared£373 ,000 loan had been taken from a Labour colleague called Geoffrey Robinson by Mandelson to buy a London house.

6:00So that's resignation number one. Resignation number two came in 2001 when he resigned again from his post as Northern Ireland secretary when it emerged that he had contacted the Home Office on behalf of a billionaire Indian-born businessman who was seeking British citizenship. That's also known as the Hinduja scandal, I believe. Right. Despite many, many warnings from many, many different people about alleged business links to China, let alone his past association with Epstein, and also the fact that obviously his career had been littered not just by scandals, but also this sense that he was a Machiavellian operator.

6:38He'd had all of these nicknames, didn't he, Tim? You know, the Dark Lord, the Prince of Darkness, the stuff of thick of it legend, really. You know, cutting off phone calls mid-conversation, pushing journalists around a bit. Generally just exerting a huge amount of influence that nobody could really work out at the time. Where is this coming from? Because I know it's not just a Starmer problem. It was a Blair problem. He has to resign in 98. He's still reappointed as Northern Ireland minister in 2001. Yes, because he's regarded as indispensable to the Labour project. And he's also seen as the sensible man who can knit the party back together.

7:18So he re-emerged under Gordon Brown as someone who could help the government in its dire hour of need, the credit crunch. And of course, was also involved in negotiations over an attempt to form a coalition with the Lib Dems after the 2010 general election. Mandelson re-emerged under Starmer. In fact, His return to the fold was seen as proof that with Corbyn out, the sensible people were back in charge of the Labour Party. And he was given this plum job in February 2025 of ambassador to the United States. And he seemed to do rather well at it, mostly through flattery. Yes. Through flattering Trump.

7:56But Trump seemed to appreciate him. The two had a good rapport. and he looked like he was an important part in Starmer's strategy of trying to win Trump round through shameless flattery. However... However, in September 2025, on the 9th, some documents came to light that revived interest in Mandelson's relationship with Epstein. There was an alleged 50th birthday book for Epstein that featured a note from Mandelson calling him my best pal. He called Epstein an intelligent, sharp-witted man and referred to his glorious homes that he liked to share with his friends. In brackets, yum yum. The book also featured images of the two men together, including Mandelson in a bathrobe talking to Epstein and another of them going shopping.

8:46The pressure is mounting on the Prime Minister. Should this man remain our key man in Washington? And I think this is quite indicative of the relationship that successive Labour prime ministers have had towards Peter Mandelson. This is Keir Starmer defending him at prime minister's questions the day after the birthday book is made public. Mr Speaker, let me start by saying the victims of Epstein are the forefront of our minds. He was a despicable criminal who committed the most heinous crimes and destroyed the lives of so many women and girls. The ambassador has repeatedly expressed his deep regret for his association with him.

9:27He's right to do so. I have confidence in him and he's playing an important role in the UK-US relationship. It took 24 hours for Keir Starmer to reverse ferret and sacked him following the release of new files, which Mandelson himself had predicted might emerge. He'd referred to some very embarrassing stuff that might come out. New files were released which included emails in which the peer told Jeffrey Epstein to, quote, fight for early release after his conviction for child sex offences. He also wrote, your friends stay with you and love you. Now, let's go into the details of what has just been released in this latest tranche of the Epstein files.

10:07And it's worth caveating all this by pointing out that Peter Mandelson quite recently did an interview with the BBC's Laura Koonsberg, in which he said, I didn't really see anything going on behind closed doors at any of Epstein's properties because I'm a homosexual. Yes. And I was kept separate from that. Because gay men are famously sexually naive. Indeed. And secondly, that if any money was exchanged between himself and Epstein, he couldn't really recall it. Although he did recall that his partner, now husband, may have received£10 ,000. but the interview was a little bit reminiscent of the former Duke of York's in, although it tried to reference the victims, it was very much a kind of, I didn't see anything, Gov, I'm not implicated in this at all, nothing to see here.

10:54We now know, thanks to this new release, that Epstein sent Lord Mandelson three separate payments of$25 ,000 between 2003 and 2004 and£10 ,000 to his husband, who was then his partner, in 2009. That payment to his partner was for an osteopathy course. Right. Handy. Why do you urgently need£10 ,000 for an osteopathy course? Was he being taught it by the mafia? I was going to say, or Kim Kardashian. Was he paying up or you swim with the fishes? Honestly. It's bizarre. And in the same year that that money was given to his partner, now husband. We have another exchange in that December when Lord Mandelson was business secretary at the time, said he was trying hard to change Labour's policy on bankers bonuses following requests from Epstein.

11:47I think this is actually the most important part of what's come out for the public. The rest is a judgment about character mostly. This is the question of to what extent was Epstein able to influence government policy. How best to do that then, Tim? Well, actually, You don't get your own hands dirty. We now have documentary evidence suggesting that Mandelson said to Jamie Demon, who was then the chief executive of JP Morgan, that he should call then-Chancellor Alastair Darling and, quote, mildly threaten him on the issue of bankers' bonuses. There is also evidence that Mandelson leaked confidential government documents to Epstein in mid-2009, including an economic briefing for the then-Prime Minister Gordon Brown captioning it, quote, interesting note that's gone to the PM.

12:36Now, this was in the wake of the financial crisis and it was essentially an assessment of the state of the economy. Having said that, Tim, the buck does stop with one former Labour prime minister because we've just had this statement from the office of Gordon and Sarah Brown. They've responded to the news that Peter Mandelson leaked confidential and privileged information while he served as business secretary during Brown's premiership. And Mr. Brown himself has said, I have today asked the cabinet secretary to investigate the disclosure of confidential and market sensitive information from the then business department during the global financial crisis.

13:13So the suggestion that Mandelson, while business secretary, was exchanging sensitive information with Jeffrey Epstein. Mr Brown reveals that he had contacted the Cabinet Secretary last September when the allegations first came to light, asked for there to be an investigation. He says that that inquiry led to a response which revealed that no departmental record could be found of any information exchanged between Lord Mandelson and Mr Epstein. But now Mr Brown is saying, given the shocking new information that has come to light in the latest tranche of Epstein papers, including this highly sensitive government document that was shared, I have now written to ask for a wider and more intensive inquiry to take place into the wholly unacceptable disclosure of government papers and information during the period when the country was battling the global financial crisis.

14:09Given the public interest in this, I have asked that the results of the inquiry be published and done so as soon as possible. So actually, it seems as if Brown at least has turned on the Labour peer and demanded more information about what's gone on. Other correspondence shows that Lord Mandelson was trying to stay at Epstein's various houses after Epstein had been convicted. So after 2008, which is obviously key critical. Now, Mandelson has stated that lots of people were lobbying the government at that time. And that should be understood to be the context to this. Nonetheless, it's, I mean, another dimension to this is the Labour Party is ostensibly a democratic socialist party.

14:59And here you have friends of very rich people discussing and passing around information related to financial policy at a historic moment in the history of Britain's economy. when you sort of would imagine that as socialists, they would be arguing for redistribution. Well, indeed. And also, by the way... Rather than fighting the corner of the bankers. But also at a period where the little people, presumably including Labour voters, were losing their homes. I mean, that's what also makes this absolutely extraordinary. Yeah. The alleged email communications also reinforce this idea of a very intimate relationship between the two men.

15:38There's one particularly bizarre one from 2009 in which Epstein, very early in the morning, writes to Mandelson and says, New York? Brown? Cuban American. Have you made any decision? Mandelson, allegedly, replies, Why are you awake? These questions are all related. desp for a QM which suggests desperate for a Cuban American but can only get to New York at a time when people feel G, I don't know who that is, won't have some sort of breakdown still working on it therefore the question is, is G Gordon Brown or Ghislaine? Yes indeed and when they're talking about Cuban Americans are they talking about cigars?

16:25I assumed that the alternative is Marco Rubio a thought which fair curdles the blood. Indeed so. Now, we don't want prime ministers to behave rashly. Nonetheless, there were many, many hours between all this coming out and something happening. Yes. And when it finally happened, it wasn't, as you might expect, Keir Starmer saying, I'm kicking Peter Mandelson out of the Labour Party. Instead, it was Peter Mandelson resigning. Let's have a look at what he wrote in his letter to the General Secretary of the Labour Party. And I quote, Allegations which I believe to be false, that he made financial payments to me 20 years ago, and of which I have no record or recollection, need investigating by me.

17:09I want to take this opportunity to repeat my apology to the women and girls whose voices should have been heard long before now. However, as we stated earlier, he did confirm that Epstein gave his partner, now husband, a£10 ,000 loan while Mandelson was still in the cabinet. One MP was quoted as saying that while he was happy, Mandelson had resigned. It should have been a sacking. Yes, of course it should have been. And when you consider that MPs have had the whip withdrawn because of their opposition to the farming tax or welfare cuts, it is quite a contrast. It is a huge contrast. Now we've got calls from Kemi Badenot, the opposition leader, for a full Cabinet Office investigation into how Mandelson and his husband took money from the paedophile Jeffrey Epstein, as she describes him while he was a Labour minister and why Mandelson was appointed ambassador in the first place.

18:02Two very good questions. The other question that remains is should he be stripped of his peerage, Tim? It's a tough one because he can't be. Without an act of Parliament it's not something within the Prime Minister's gift to do. Ideally he should resign. Doesn't have to though. It's worth noting that Geoffrey Archer who retired from the House of Lords I think in 2024, retired, was not booted out, despite his conviction for perjury. So he remained Lord Archer throughout and could have clocked in and out every day for 300 quid. Yeah. And the thing with Peter Mandelson is you feel with him that he always retains agency.

18:43Whatever crisis is going on, however much he's been disgraced, it always comes back to, so what is Peter going to choose to do? Most people in public life, they just have everything taken away from them when they do one thing wrong. This man somehow always manages to return to influence and never, ever quite gives up his public role. But then in that regard, there's no doubting that he's a highly intelligent man and operator, that he has ingratiated himself with the Labour Party, Labour figures and politics at the very heart of some of the most interesting periods of recent Westminster history.

19:21and that he's done that extremely ably and deftly. The question remains is, is this it now? Is he like Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor, sort of as a public figure, completely dead and buried? I don't think it's it for him. I don't think it's ever it for anyone who has no shame. There are plenty of people in public life who have been disgraced and yet have returned. There was an interesting article in The Telegraph observing that Americans have responded differently, slightly differently to this to the British, that whereas British institutions have been fast to throw people under the bus who look like they were tainted by scandal, so Starmer eventually sacking Peter Manilson as ambassador, the royal family eventually taking away Andrew's title, American institutions tend to forgive and forget and move on because arguably the most important man mentioned in these things is not Mandy or Andy, it's Donald Trump.

20:20Yes. And yet this doesn't seem to have damaged his power. There's no threat of him having to resign over anything at all. Well, there is an unsubstantiated allegation that the US president raped a girl of 13 or 14, which he's now said on Air Force One he thinks is actionable. He's credited with releasing most of the files, although 200 ,000 pages remain redacted. The only saving grace for Trump is the timing of his falling out with Epstein. Yeah. He falls out with him in 2008. And therefore the point we made about Mandy and Andy maintaining the relationship post-conviction does not apply to Trump.

20:58So actually, cantankerous old Trump who falls out with everyone eventually is almost saved by the fact that he has this massive row with Epstein over money or a business deal or something. And it seems, and Robert Mendick did confirm this when he initially did some of the reporting of the files, it seems as if they didn't really have any contact subsequently. But the point about cultural difference stands because Trump has, regardless of Epstein, had so many accusations against him, some of which some courts have found to be true. Yes. And yet it hasn't dented his political career. Whereas in this country, I don't think you could get away with that.

21:39I don't know if that's the British being more puritanical. I don't quite know where it comes from, But we are far harder on our public figures and we set the hurdle much higher for how good they have to be in order to stay in public life. But I still, a part of me cannot believe that Peter Mandelson will ever stop, will ever not be a part of our public life. Because there is a Westminster elite that thinks he's invaluable. Yes. Before we get on to speaking about the king's brother being caught up in all this, let's just finish on just listening. just for fairness, for Anglo-American fairness, those who are implicated across the pond.

22:18So we have correspondence with Elon Musk. Musk asked about Wildest Party on Ireland, Epstein Island, and he asked Epstein in November 2012 about whether he could attend. It's unclear if he ever visited. We've also got correspondence with Trump's Commerce Secretary, Howard Lutnig. And then you do the Bill Gates allegation, which it must be said the Microsoft boss vehemently denies. Notes in the files suggest that Gates caught an STD from, quote, Russian girls. Epstein made this claim in a 225-word email he sent to himself on July the 18th, 2013, with the subject line, Bill. This brings us back to this theory that why was Epstein meeting with all these people, organising all these parties, photographing everything, filming everything?

23:07And the conspiracy theory is he was doing it for blackmail purposes. Yes. I don't think that's yet been proven. And there are certain things that even this latest tranche haven't quite yet shown. I think it's always important to remember Jeffrey Epstein was found guilty of procuring prostitutes and children for himself. Ghislaine Maxow was found guilty of procuring them for Jeffrey. I know. We haven't yet in a court of law proved that this man was organising underage prostitutes for any of these men. OK. And yes, we couldn't have the sex trafficking trial because Epstein... Epstein is dead. Epstein died in prison and we've spoken to Mark Epstein, his brother, about whether we think it was suicide or homicide.

23:51But don't forget that there was a huge plea deal to only get him convicted on those two charges. There were multiple, multiple, multiple charges. and he had Alan Dershowitz, one of the US's best lawyers representing him, also in the past represented Donald Trump and OJ Simpson. So just bear that. And that's fine. He's got the right, he had the right at that time to robust defence. But people say, you know, he wasn't sent down hard enough and for long enough at the time he was put in prison. No, and he was going to be. Later on he was going to be. Coming up next, we're going to discuss with Andrew Lowney, explosive royal biographer of the Duke and Duchess of York, just how bad this looks for the Andrew formerly known as Prince.

24:45Andrew Lowney, thank you for joining us. You are the author of Entitled, The Rise and Fall of the House of York, much of which has been vindicated in the last few weeks. You detailed some of the shady background stuff related to Andrew and Sarah Ferguson. And now you have the Epstein files or the latest tranche to go through. What have we learned in the last few days about Andrew's relationship with Jeffrey Epstein that we didn't know before? Well, I mean, it's a devastating release. I mean, we know, I mean, it's in my book, but it's now more and more evidence. The fact this was a very close relationship with Epstein, both for Andrew and for Sarah Ferguson.

25:20It began much earlier. People are saying seven years earlier. In fact, it began in 1985. and it's talking how it went on until 2014. But I think it shows that they were both very central to Epstein's life. It showed that they've repeatedly lied in their public statements about Epstein. It showed how Andrew capitalized on his position as a trade envoy to make money for himself. I think it really now makes the case for a woman being trafficked to Andrew and I think there is a very strong case for the Met now to reopen their investigations and to look at this again. There's plenty of material there for those who would like to come after him for misconduct in public office.

26:00Clearly, there are other names that emerge out of this. Peter Mandelson is the obvious one, Bill Gates. There are other names, I think, that will emerge. Tony Blair. I think there'll be more on Bill Clinton. We've got to remember there's another three million pages that haven't been released. So this is only the tip of the iceberg. And that's, of course, only what was given to the DOJ as part of their investigations. There's still more material at the Epstein estate itself. Obviously, the pressure has been piled on to Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor specifically because Prime Minister Keir Starmer came out yesterday and said, well, he should testify before the US Congress.

26:37I don't think he can actually be compelled to do that, Andrew, can he? No, he can't. I mean, it's a ridiculous, meaningless statement. Andrew has tried to avoid talking to anyone for years. He hasn't responded to any of the allegations. He ran up to Balmoral to escape the summons from Virginia Giffray. He didn't cooperate with the legal assistance treaty. He has not talked to the victim's lawyers or indeed helped law enforcement at all. So I think that's very unlikely. The only way he's going to cough up is if he actually has a knock at the door from PC Plod. I think one of the interesting things that I have taken from this is we know that the palace tried to suppress this story for years.

27:14They put either soft arm or tough action on various media outlets who wanted to report on it, saying they would deny them access to members of the royal family. And I think I've certainly got new information, for example, that the FBI passed a file on Andrew in 2022 to the Met, so that the Met have no excuse for not having done some form of investigation. And I think there are some big questions there. I think there are also big questions for Buckingham Palace. When did they know what was going on? What did they do about it? And what are they going to do now? My only point on Buckingham Palace pushing back on royal correspondents trying to expose this, the one reason why we have this absolutely extraordinary compendium of revelations is because of the release of official files.

28:01So whenever I used to try and work on the story in the past, you really needed the legal documentation to become public so that you could make the claims you were going to make in a national newspaper without being sued for defamation, without any defence of justification. So a lot of what's been released has sort of, I think, confirmed things we were hearing in the background. The allegation that Russian girls were being delivered to Royal Lodge is kind of the stuff of anecdote and then it's in an email suggesting that Epstein had introduced to Andrew the notion of him meeting a 24-year-old trustworthy Russian girl and it's begging all sorts of questions about actually was Epstein at the helm of some kind of extraordinary KGB honey trap.

28:44There's cameras in every room. Ghislaine Maxwell's there photographing seemingly everyone coming through the doors. For instance, when I talk about the actual physical records, which obviously are quite handy to journalists because they show in black and white or in technicolour or in actual vivid detail in actual emails what was discussed at the time. But for instance, the image of Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor on all fours over a girl. Had you seen that before? No. So we have that. And I think as Tim and I previously discussed with the Peter Mandelson situation, this is all about what people knew when they knew it, what they said about what they knew, and what we now know to be true about what they knew.

29:25And for the same reason that Lord Mandelson is currently at the top of the sort of the list of shame in all this, It's the maintenance of the relationship after Epstein's conviction that is the most damning aspect of this. Both of these cases are tied by both parties, the Yorks and indeed Mandelson and Mandelson's now husband, receiving money from Epstein. That's incriminating in itself. but in second place or maybe its primary is this idea and this is what really has kind of hammered the final nail into their coffin as public figures. It was the dishonesty about they said they cut Epstein off and we now know, we now have documentary evidence to show they absolutely didn't and were sending post-conviction gushing messages.

30:16Let's look at what Fergie was saying to him. I mean, a lot of this is in my book, and I mean, a lot of it came out with the two email leaks in the autumn from May on Sunday. So this is only more evidence. But I mean, I think, you know, we know they've been lying. I mean, I had the story I've told you about the dog walker who saw us staying in the flats in 2014. So, I mean, in some ways, we've known they've been lying. We've been caught out to almost everything you said in the news interviews. To give one example of a communication, alleged communication between Sarah Ferguson and Jeffrey Epstein, in 2010, which is after his conviction, Fergie wrote, You are a legend.

30:53I really don't have the words to describe my love, gratitude for your generosity and kindness. Kiss, kiss. I am at your service. Just marry me. It's so odd. That's how she wrote to most people. I know. I mean, that is kind of like Fergie talk. And I think most people that have ever received any correspondence from her or had a conversation with her and knows she speaks in these overly gushing terms. And we're not... I don't quite want to judge her on this one, but a lot of people have jumped on this email exchange, alleged, in which Epstein writes simply, New York, question mark, and Fergie replies, Not sure, Yart.

31:32Just waiting for Eugenie to come back from a shagging weekend. Yes. It's not the way to discuss one's daughter who is... It's the way the upper classes talk about their children. ...recently shacked up with a new boyfriend. And also this... Their daughters and their horses. She describes Epstein as the brother she always wished for. Again, this is juxtaposed with the briefing that we got from Fergie's people after it was revealed that she maintained contact post-conviction, where our colleague down in the newsroom, Robert Mendick, was told in no uncertain terms that she only did this because she was receiving Hannibal Lecter-style calls from Epstein threatening her after she had denounced him.

32:10So she sort of publicly denounces him. And yet it seems that the timeline seems... And then she goes to the States in his flats. I mean, Andrew, it needs to be pointed out, as is ever the case, that nobody has been found guilty of anything in a court of law appearing in documents. Well, I think it's very clear he's avoided a court of law by settling with Virginia Jeffrey. But also, as I say, he hasn't cooperated with anyone at any stage. He hasn't responded to any allegations. He's not talked to anyone. And neither has she. But I think what you raised in the paper, I think, is very important, that this isn't just a story about sexual and financial misdemeanors.

32:48It's a story about national security. Epstein was a Russian source. Ghislaine and Epstein were introduced by actually a Russian agent in 1985, an art gallery in New York, which was a front for laundering money by the Russian intelligence services. And Epstein was collecting kompromat. We know that he collected copyright and everyone to use to blackmail them. And I know the intelligence services were very concerned about the people that Andrew was mixing with. We do need to add there that, yes, the latest tranche of documents does reveal several references to Putin in emails that have been sent by Epstein.

33:25I haven't been able to make the direct link straight to Vladimir, but it may, as you say, Andrew, be a matter of time. I would imagine the former Duke of York would deny any association whatsoever with the Russians, the Russian president, the Russian state. I just need to caveat that. But we do have a lot of Russians floating around. The other suggestion, of course, that's long been made about Epstein is he may have been an agent of Mossad. Yes, he was. As ever, Ghislaine Maxwell's role in all this remains intriguing. It's probably worth noting that the only person that's ever been imprisoned for any of this is the woman that was involved and none of the men.

34:00Just leave that point there. But then there are these revelations about the nature of her relationship with Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor, referring to each other as darling sweetheart and sweet pea. Ghislaine signed off one email with, I shall miss you. I love you lots. While Andrew said, I love you and I'm longing to see you when either you or I are in the same part of the world. Lots of affection between the pair of them. Previously regarded as a platonic relationship, maybe it was. Maybe they were just very, very close friends. And it should be pointed out as well that although he continued to live with his ex-wife, Sarah Ferguson, at Royal Lodge, he was obviously long divorced.

34:42One curious detail that also comes out of the files is Sarah Ferguson congratulated Jeffrey Epstein on the birth of a baby boy after he was released from jail in 2011. Have we ever heard wind that Jeffrey Epstein might have had a child? No, that's new. And that was very interesting. I mean, he was very keen to have children. I mean, a lot of these models were sort of encouraged, including Virginia, to produce this sort of master race that he wanted. He was very interested in eugenics. So it doesn't surprise me that there may have been a child. Epstein wanted to produce a master race. Yeah. Right.

35:16Is there a risk with all of this that we are looking at isolated bits of communication or photographs such as Andrew apparently on the floor playing some kind of sexy game of CPR. And we're obviously reading into it things because we know what we think we know and we're joining dots and we're saying, aha, this proves something that perhaps we still can't conclusively prove. Well, I mean, I think that what's more damaging are the emails rolled in the pictures. The pictures don't look great and the emails are backing up things that we know elsewhere. I mean, time and time again, I had material taken out of the book by the lawyers, which has now been proved to be true.

35:54So all the material on Peter Mandelson, material on Libya, some of the other stuff with Epstein was all taken out because I didn't have double sources or they were suspicious of one of my sources. In fact, that source has proved to be absolutely right on everything they told me. Let's go back to just finish up with the kind of issue of whether the king has managed to cauterize this or not. perhaps we can extrapolate from the very decisive action he took several months ago with regard to saying to Andrew Wright that's it now you're no longer royal you've got to go and live a private life at Sandringham you're losing Royal Lodge we don't care about the lease that you've signed we're tearing that up just go and we never want to see you in public again and everyone was like well this is could the palace have known what was coming down the track because it's a significant Question, Andrew, when we also reflect on how much the government must have known about Mandelson.

36:50Yes, I think that both the government and the King knew a lot of this stuff. I mean, clearly there were members of the intelligence services who were reporting to the palace, who had kept both Andrew and Sarah under observation. We know, I mean, for example, one of the reasons I suspect that the Foreign Office and the Department of Business and Trade are not releasing any of the files connected with Andrew's time as a trade envoy, which they should by law have released to the National Archives is because they're worried what's in it. So I do think that this story is now developing into a cover-up.

37:19I believe that a lot of information was given to the palace some time ago and they should have dealt with Andrew as an issue many years ago. Even at the beginning of last year they could have done something which would have nipped it in the bud. And so in some ways this crisis... Well, how can you ever nip it in the bud? At the end of the day, if there's no legal compulsion for him to go and appear anywhere and be questioned by anyone, it's within his legal rights to just remain silent, to quote the Americans, then he can just do that. I mean, he's been completely and utterly defenestrated, hasn't he?

37:51What do you expect him to do, Andrew? Go and live in a hole somewhere? Well, I mean, he has lost his title, though he hasn't actually really lost his title. He's moved to a slightly smaller house, but I don't think he's going to spend time... Much smaller house, right? He's not going to spend his time in Sandringham. Bigger than mine. Well, it's a cottage on the Sandringham state. He's going to spend his time in the Middle East. He's going to follow Juan Carlos. But he's entitled to do that. He's actually a free man. The king is basically paying for him. So, I mean, he has some pressure on him.

38:21I think the deal that was done was to take care of the daughters and that Andrew and Sarah would go gently from Royal Lodge because they did have an uncastle lease. They didn't have to go. I mean, we've had some struggle since then. I mean, he's made some complaints he doesn't like Marsh Farm. So he's kind of still trying to call the shots. And I had a member of staff tell my source last week that he still hasn't come to terms with the fact that he's done anything wrong. So I think that's the problem. But again, that's not the king's fault. You know, the king has this brother who's just a bloody nightmare, frankly.

38:52I mean, William's got the same problem. How do you solve a problem like a spare to an heir? Who stubbornly refuses to go to jail. And stubbornly refuses to take any responsibility for anything. I mean, obviously, there are direct parallels. Let's just put this all into perspective. By comparison, what Harry's done is a walk in the park for the royal family. Let's be perfectly honest about that. But what more could the king do? Well, as I say, I think the king knows a lot more about this and there's a lot more going on behind the scenes than has perhaps emerged. And I think there needs to be a bit more openness about actually what's been going on.

39:27I think there's been a bit of smoke and mirrors. I know, but then if you're dealing with somebody who is lacking in any introspection, still is parading around, pompously thinking he hasn't done anything wrong. Charles is there, a completely different character, really, to Andrew, isn't he? Charles is there full of introspection, full of self-doubt. He could be turning around to Andrew and saying, Andrew, please, for the love of God, you're in danger of bringing down our entire monarchy. You know, we've already now got an investigation, thanks to you, into all royal buildings anywhere. There's a parliamentary investigation into royal land And that's their concern about royal accountability and privilege.

40:06But just Charles to Andrew, how could you, what more can Charles do to convince this guy? We have to remember that Charles said that he couldn't do anything and then suddenly he could do something. So I think there is more he could do. I have to be careful what I say for legal reasons and because some of this material is going in my paperback. Your paperback is going to be quite weighty for when it comes out. It is. I do want to ask you about an interesting exchange you had online in which someone said Andrew Lowney has published all this. and yet remains a monarchist. And they were surprised.

40:35But you replied, one can still support an institution in principle whilst calling out bad behavior by a minority of those associated with it. Is your faith in monarchy still undimbed? Yes, I think it's the least worst system. And I think most members of the royal family do a brilliant job and they must feel very frustrated that they're being undermined by these rogue royals like Andrew. You know, we have investigations going into the SAS and what was going on in Iraq and Afghanistan. doesn't mean the SAS is a flawed organization. It just means there were some bad apples in it who didn't behave as well as they should.

41:06And I think anyone within that institution would say we need to root these people out because it undermines our reputation and our ethos. And that's why I do think the king needs to take a pretty firm hand with Andrew. And I think there are some other options that he could look at. He can't just sit, doesn't need to sit in the sidelines and say there's nothing more I can do. There is a famous doomsday clock that ticks ever closer to midnight. Do you think we're any closer to midnight for the royal family following all this stuff? Yes, I do. I mean, I think this is a huge opportunity for them to become fit for purpose in the 21st century, to be accountable and transparent.

41:43And you're absolutely right. They're absolutely worried about these crown estate properties being looked at by the Public Affairs, Public Accounts Committee. But I think, you know, that there should be some reforms there. If they've got nothing to hide, then they shouldn't be concerned. But one of the reasons that this problem has arisen is because there was no scrutiny, particularly parliamentary scrutiny, but also just a reluctance even by the press sometimes to go here. And this has allowed foreign governments like Russia and China to actually penetrate this country using greedy royals to do it.

42:16A final question. One imagines that when a huge amount of documentation is released, obviously journalists will pore over it and probably carry out searches using AI for Andrew's name and Bill Gates and all the rest of it. Are we thinking that we've got the most salacious and juiciest stuff already? Or are we just at the tip of the iceberg? No, I mean, I don't think everything is in the documents anyway, for a start. As I say, we've only got half of them. The ones we haven't got are the ones that clearly are the juiciest. I may not be the juiciest about Andrew, but certainly there are various reasons why they've been redacted and withheld.

42:49But I think there's also a lot of material, as I say, that's held by the Epstein estate itself, which never was part of investigations, that could be released. We've got victims that could still come forward. A number of them, unfortunately, have NDAs and they can't talk. There were all sorts of settlements made. And people are constantly claiming the fifth. I mean, that's, I think, what Ghislaine Maxwell will do when she's called. So there are some problems. but there are always things that will emerge, always people that will come forward, as we found recently with the so-called second victim of Andrew.

43:22But I do think there's a very strong case now that women were brought to Andrew and the Met need to look at this case, and I don't think I'm alone in believing that. I also think that his time as a trade envoy needs to be looked at by Parliament because lessons need to be learned from that fiasco. I'm just going to reiterate again that Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor denies any wrongdoing. Thank you very much, Andrew Lowney. We'll be back tomorrow, 5pm.