'Starmer's got blood on his hands' Migrant murder victim Rhiannon Whyte’s mum hits out

0:02The Telegraph.

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1:47A Sudanese man has been charged with attempted murder after that horrific attack. in Belfast. After a night of despicable violence and chaos on the streets, the only person who attempted to grill the PM at PMQs was Reform's Richard Tice. Yet I was at a press conference earlier at Reform HQ where Mr Tice had a go at a journalist for suggesting that Nigel Farage had stoked the tensions. And I also speak to Siobhan White, the mother of Rhiannon White, who was murdered by a Sudanese asylum seeker in 2024. Welcome to The Daily Tea with me, Tim Stanley and me Camilla Tominey.

2:32Tim the theme of this podcast is going to be ugly scenes. You've just come back from the House of Commons where PMQ's got a bit ugly. I've just come back from a reform press conference which got a bit ugly and indeed the scenes in Belfast overnight were very ugly with I believe three protesters now arrested. We've had firebomb attacks on migrant houses. We've had appeals for calm. I don't think I would describe the scenes in the Commons as ugly. I would describe them as tense. Yes. They only flared out into the open once when Richard Tice asked a question. But otherwise, MPs were avoiding the elephant in the room, partly because they'd been advised to by the speaker who pointed out that there are legal proceedings ongoing, which of course cover us too, but also because politicians would rather use this moment to appeal for unity and condemn division than talk directly to the things that caused the disorder in Northern Ireland.

3:31Indeed. And later in this podcast, we're going to hear from Siobhan White, who is the mother of Rhiannon White, who was killed by a migrant in October 2024. And you're going to hear her frustration with successive politicians not grasping the nettle on this, being too afraid of people pointing and saying racist and bigot to actually address what has been going on in recent years with regard to migrant crime and particularly very violent migrant crime. Let's just bring ourselves up to date with the latest on the Belfast case. So we have a Sudanese man in his 30s having been charged with attempted murder following the stabbing on Monday night in North Belfast.

4:15We did, of course, acknowledge when we were in Makerfield yesterday, the very graphic nature of the social media footage that emerged of the alleged attack. We now know that the suspect claimed asylum in Belfast in February 2023 and was granted leave to remain in September 2023. Police confirmed he lived locally, has no trace on national security databases and was completely unknown to the PSNI. That's the police service of Northern Ireland. His name is Hadi Al-Odid and we also have the name of the man that was allegedly attacked. He's called Stephen Ogilvie. He's in his 40s. He remains in a very serious condition in hospital.

4:52He's lost his left eye. He's got serious injuries to his right eye. And then that leads us on to the scenes last night where we had houses, cars and a bus set on fire in Belfast in violence that followed the attack. And in one area, hundreds of masked men carrying bottles and bricks set bins on fire and shouted foreigners out. The riots were completely inexcusable, appalling. And one SDLP member referred to them as a race pogrom against migrants living in the area. If people read anything on the subject, I would direct them to a piece by Aris Rusinos on Unheard, who is a journalist living in the area who witnessed it firsthand.

5:34One thing he observed, he sums it up as the violence was carried out by Protestant loyalists, but Catholic nationalists came out to watch. And there are things happening in Northern Ireland which have to be addressed with relation to asylum. One is the question of how many people have been put in Northern Ireland by Westminster. minister asylum seekers rather than spreading them out throughout the mainland? And is that a sensible thing to do in a part of the country which already has great social tensions? And the second issue is the porous nature of the Irish border. Now, as I said, the debate in PMQs, it was followed by a debate on Northern Ireland, a question by an SDLP member put to Dan Jarvis, the Northern Irish minister.

6:20What was really interesting was PMQ's turnout was about 90 % and they all expressed their rage of what happened and their solidarity with Northern Ireland. And then as soon as the speaker said, PMQs is over, please swap your positions. Nearly 99 % of that audience walked out. So that is how much, whatever they said at PMQs, that is how much the average MP actually cares about Ulster. Yeah. And that is something really, really worth bearing in mind. And what you're mostly left with were the representatives of Ulster. But those watching will have spotted a couple of, again, well-intentioned but slightly unreal statements.

7:03One was, for example, the Tory Shadow Home Secretary, Chris Philp, talked about how people were justifiably angry about illegal immigration. To be fair, he was echoing Kemi Badenock, who had said this earlier. The scenes in Belfast are deeply, deeply disturbing. A man is in hospital after a brutal attack, and now families are frightened after a night of violence. There is a life criminal case, so we must be careful about what we say. But we can be clear about this. People have a right to be angry. I am angry. And people have the right to expect their politicians to secure our borders. But no one has a right to burn families out of their homes or to burn public property and attack the police.

7:55We all have a duty to stand up for public safety in every way. But here's the thing. This migrant was given leave to remain in September 2023. He was here legally. The question is, how did he enter the UK? Very probably via Ireland. So this is the point that DUP members are raising. is it comes back to the question of the porous nature of the border. Yes. And it's not just a question about illegal crossings coming across the channel. It's a question about the impact of migration in general and the wisdom of granting asylum to people who you may or may not have done full checks on and who are coming from countries that have experienced traumatic disorder, i.e.

8:42Sudan. Now, of course, the paradox here is that if you want to take someone from anywhere, it's from Sudan. Because you've got a very good claim on asylum if you're trying to escape a civil war with ethnic genocide in it. But if your goal is to keep your own people safe, is it wise to take people from that country? That's a perfectly reasonable question to ask. And you can ask it while honestly condemning the mindless violence that took place in Belfast. Indeed. But we discussed this last week when in the Henry Novak case, the dialogue suddenly switches from the murder of a young man to the political discourse around it.

9:24And so, yes, we have that. The response to the response. The response to the response. Whereas we really do need to probably focus on the crime itself. Now, I appreciate that's difficult because proceedings are now active. So everyone's going to have to be very careful what they say about the latest case in Belfast so as not to prejudice the trial. And we appreciate that. We're also going to be taking note of that. But isn't it easier, rather than discussing the complexities of asylum, rather than discussing the complexities of the ethnic tensions within Northern Ireland, isn't it easier to discuss reform?

9:56Yes. And as I say, the PMQs had passed quite quietly. They, like Basil Fawlty, they mentioned the war once, but they thought they got away with it, until Richard Tye stood up. We all condemn, of course, the appalling violence in Belfast last night. after the horrific attack on Monday. But this Prime Minister, this Prime Minister is in denial of the rising despair across the country over his failure to stop the boats and related criminality, his failure to recognise two-tier policing, his failures over Mandelson, his failures over the scourge of anti-Semitism. He's lost the confidence of the country, his own trade union members and his own very quiet backbenchers, Mr Speaker.

10:38When will he do the right thing and when will this Prime Minister resign? And this was Keir Starmer's response to the deputy leader of reform. Mr Speaker, last week we had the terrible case of Henry Novak, which they sought to exploit. Now we have a very difficult situation in Northern Ireland where families and communities are extremely frightened. What do they do? They try to whip up fear and division, because that's all they've got. And he talks about stopping the boats. Mr Speaker, when we passed legislation to help stop the boats, what did they do? They voted against it. And to take those measures, you need money.

11:15And he is still not properly addressed why his companies didn't just aggressively avoid tax but failed to pack the tax that they legally evoked. His investment company then gave huge donations to reform. If he paid his tax with more money to deal with these issues. Now, Rhiannon White's mum, who, again, you're going to hear from a little later, she's getting frustrated with the dialogue turning to political discourse are not focusing on the matter in hand. She thinks that's a cop-out. She thinks it's an excuse. But there is a legitimate row to be had, is there not, Tim, about whether or not this is being used for political capital by reform.

11:54Totally legit, yes, of course. Totally legitimate to ask that. And Rupert Lowe was sat there and at one point during the debate shook his head wearily. Reform's problem is that whenever it tries to defend itself, it only has a handful of people in the chamber, not including Nigel Farage, I noted. So it means that Tice is just left shouting against almost 600 other people. And when he sat down and Keir Starmer gave that reply, Tice was reduced to waving his paper angrily and Lee Anderson pointing his finger angrily. It is like a droplet of water in a flood, that kind of response. And it makes it look like no one agrees with him.

12:31So if an alien only watched the Commons, you'd think reform was a neo-fascist party that no one in this country votes for, rather than one that might be about to beat the future prime minister and make a feel. Well, also might be one where the actual majority of this country is nodding along as he asks serious questions about the Home Office's border control. As everyone nods along and says, well, how does it come to pass that we have admitted or not admitted legally to this country people that end up going on to kill us? The form is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't. If he steps up and says this is about immigration, then people will call him a fascist.

13:11But if he doesn't, then people who want to hear that opinion expressed will conclude that reform is as bad as everyone else, uniparty, and they will switch to restore. Or Tommy Robinson, who, by the way, I believe is currently in Russia as we speak. OK, cosy. Also, there is the spectre of the by-election fast approaching. And Graham Pack, friend to this show, friend to The Telegraph, a regular correspondent and listener to The Daily Tea, pointed out, I wonder if recent events are going to have an impact on the vote in Makerfield. Are people going to look at this and think, well, actually, some of these cases, Novak, Belfast.

13:47No one mentioned it to us. They didn't, but they're emblematic. No one said Novak to us. They're emblematic, are they not? They do delineate between Labour's, everybody just keep calm, let us control your rage and reform slash restores. No, we hear your rage and we're going to try and do something about it. But talking of a degree of anger, Tim, I was at the Reform press conference this morning, which was ostensibly about a Keep Britain Tidy campaign that the party has launched. They're trying to channel their inner Thatcher and make sure that everyone puts their litter in a bin and indeed that people just stop fly-tipping mattresses and other rubbish in the countryside.

14:26And it was a noble aim and it was all great. But of course, all of the questions, or almost all of the questions, ended up being about Belfast and this suggestion that perhaps the protestations made by Nigel Farage and others in the party hadn't quite helped the scene on the ground there. This was the question that was asked by Paul McNamara of Channel 4 and just have a listen to Tice's response. You've been asked whether or not you condemn the violence that we saw in Northern Ireland overnight, perhaps in part because of comments Nigel Farrell made last week in relation to the Henry Nobis. Absolutely ridiculous.

15:05Paul, that is outrageous. You know it is. End of story. I'm just asking. Well, and I've just answered. Thank you very much, Paul. Does it concern you? That is outrageous. Paul, you've asked your question and I've answered it. Sorry, I actually didn't ask a question. Jonathan Walker, the express. The question is, does it concern you that you have to be asked? Jonathan Walker, the Express. That's a revolting accusation to make, and you should be ashamed of yourself. Listen, we did get in the lift afterwards at Milbank Tower, and I said, well, Paul, welcome to the club. I mean, the number of journalists who are getting admonished for asking a question that the Reform Party don't like at its press conferences is going up by the day, right?

15:42Yes. We've always got this sense of a degree of hostility, but clearly Tice was extremely infuriated by that line of questioning. Yeah, I don't think reform has yet cracked statesmanship and it was striking listening to the debates in Parliament how the SDLP and the DUP are used to speaking in a certain register when they talk about disorder because they know how their words will either trigger or be misconstrued or used to excuse further violent action. So I don't think reform's quite nailed that yet. And I think there is a way of expressing people's anger that doesn't come across as hand flappy, angry, taking it personally.

16:23They've got to give us the reassurance that I can do this job without inflaming tensions further. But is the Prime Minister's response to Tice earlier in the House of Commons adequate? He is expressing the frustrations of a nation that is extremely worried, not just about what's been going on, but, you know, the prospect of a summer of discontent. And then he pulls on the, well, what about your tax affairs lever? I mean, I get it. It's an easy hit. But that betrays a lack of seriousness by Keir Starmer. I think, to be fair to this government, it is deporting more people. Legal migration has fallen under this government.

17:00Well, it was nowhere else for it to go. Right, but there's no part of them that tolerates disorder of this kind. But with Keir Starmer, you can see the cogs working in his brain and you can just tell that the moment this crime was committed, his thought was, right, that's now being investigated by the police. That's going to be handled by this bureaucracy over there. My issue now is I've got to bring order and make sure everyone calms down. So I'm going to focus on that. and he doesn't realise that that's really winding people up because we have a deficit of trust and empathy and democracy, a feeling that these people just don't get it.

17:37They just don't share our instinctive anger and horror at seeing these things happen. Well, to channel that, obviously you were in the house today and I spoke to Siobhan White, who is the mother of Rhiannon White, who was killed in the most brutal circumstances, Tim. She was stabbed to death with a screwdriver 23 times by an asylum seeker that was in the migrant hotel where she worked. Now, this happened in October 2024. OK, you feel angry. Imagine being the relative of somebody who has lost their life in these circumstances. So slight trigger warning. The interview you're about to hear is very difficult, but it needs to be heard.

18:20And that's coming up next.

18:33Siobhan White joins me now on The Daily Tea. Welcome. Your daughter Rhiannon was killed in the most appalling circumstances in October 2024. I remember the case at the time. I can still remember it now. In your own words, can you just take us through what happened to Rhiannon? yeah riannon had been at work in an asylum seeker hotel she was due to come home or finish a shift at 11 o 'clock usual get a train home to you know we lived in walsall at the time and it was literally two minutes on a train literally 60 seconds from the hotel to the train station when we watched the police footage he'd been stalking her for hours watching her just letting his presence be known I think because I'm sure you've seen that as she walks in from a break with two other girls he deliberately barged into Rhiannon.

19:31Yes. Obviously she's not going to think she's going to get murdered. He went into the darkness of Beskitt football stadium. Rhiannon walked over to the station on the phone to her best friend. He was literally seconds behind her walking behind across the car park and got onto the platform of the station and attacked her. Yeah, we found out that it was obviously 23 stab wounds, one so bad that it went straight through the brainstem. He took a phone, so if she had survived or tried to reach out, happy took the phone from her. Threw the phone into the River Tane and then went off and bought alcohol went back to the hotel and danced and celebrated, basically, with the blue lights behind him.

20:27I mean, I can't imagine or even begin to imagine how difficult it was to learn of the brutal nature of how she was killed. But then to find out that her killer, Deng Mayek, who is a Sudanese national and asylum seeker, had appeared to celebrate and glorify what had happened afterwards. Yeah. We were in shock. I mean, the police asked us if we'd like to see the CCTV before the court. They did say it would be a lot to take on, but we did that because we didn't want to hit us suddenly at the court. He hadn't spoken to anybody that evening, that day or whatever. He just literally sat by himself. He was acknowledged by other migrants and didn't speak to anyone.

21:16But afterwards, he celebrated stabbing her because he went back and was knocking on the rooms of other residents and got them outside and was drinking and dancing. And then, like I said, literally blew lights behind him and he went to bed like nothing happened. Yeah. He was jailed for 29 years. that's life with a minimum term did you think that that sentence was adequate at the time? No, I don't think anything's ever going to be enough but at least I know he's there and even the judge thinks he'll probably never get released because he showed no remorse, no compassion lied consistently all the way through the court case kept looking at us as a family but when he realised that we weren't going to give him the time of day We weren't going to give him any kind of acknowledgement.

22:16But when he did look, we just stared and he kept putting his head down.

22:23I don't know. Was it enough? No, maybe not. But at least I know he's there. Yes. My fear was, it sounds staffed, my fear at the time was if he gets deported, he's going to come back, go to another country and do it again. Yes. In being in there, I know he can't get to hurt another woman. His asylum status and him having arrived here illegally, what impact did that have on you in reaction to what happened? Because I'd imagine as a mother, and I've spoken to many other families of victims of appalling crime in this studio, most notably actually Emma Webber, mother of Barnaby, who was killed by Valdo Calicane, along with two others in Nottingham.

23:04And she spoke of her guilt at not being able to save her son. That's what's crushing me, the guilt. And in this case as well, you must be thinking in your mind, this guy shouldn't have been in the country. No. No, like I said, 11 weeks. Denied asylum in Germany, denied asylum in Italy, was arrested in Germany, but still allowed to waltz into England. 11 weeks. We just, I just can't get my head around it. But like Emma, it's the guilt, the guilt that I couldn't, because on a train, she was two minutes away from home. Seven minutes all in all, literally from the train station to, from work, train station to where we lived at the time, would have literally been about seven minutes.

23:54And that guilt that I couldn't protect her is something I'll never get past. No motive appears to have been established for this attack. he's given no explanation there was an incident the day before with another migrant he was drunk, he apologised it's not the person in question and it was all over the internet that it was about biscuits etc it wasn't, this was an incident the day before the guy was drunk he lashed out it upset Rhiannon I did ask her not to go to work the next day because I was worried because mum, it's ok, he's apologised saw the error of his ways and off she went. Totally different issue.

24:38The man that killed Rhiannon, even from what we've heard, that the person that he was in that room with, they asked to be put somewhere else because there was something about him. But again, they don't listen. Yeah. Nobody's listening. How angry are you with the state about this? because we've had very many promises to stop the votes, not just from the current Labour government, but also from the Conservatives. The votes haven't been stopped. Yes, I do blame Starmer, but I also blame the government before him because I think they've got the blood of Rhiannon and other people on their hands, and I will stand by that.

25:25We don't know. When is it going to end? When are the government going to listen? because I'm being blanked in every which way I am being ignored. Tell me more about that, Siobhan. I have reached out to Starmer. I have reached out to Siobhan and Mahmood. Our local MP, Matt Weston, I approached him, I think just after it happened with Rhiannon, because I wanted to come home to my family, et cetera. And he just says, well, I can't help you. that's an issue with council etc and then I said look I'm begging for help and then it was it was a big thing and I never heard anything and then my niece reached out to him and he said well we could um crowdfund a bench in the local park I'm sorry I don't want a bench for these people to sit on and to ruin and that's going to mean nothing to me but what what do you want Siobhan really I mean because we saw last week finally uh the death of Henry Novak caught up with the Prime Minister and he's issuing statements in Parliament and he's meeting with the family and all the rest of it uh do you feel somewhat ignored by comparison to some of these other high profile cases I do but again the situation with Henry Novak absolutely broke my heart and if he's reached out to that family do I think he's done it on his own free will no I think he was forced into it.

26:58But if he's acknowledged that family for Henry, then yes, I respect that. I do respect that. But again, I may be speaking out of turn, but I think he's done that because the big two-tier policing. Yeah. He's not done it because he cares or he's going to put a stop to these things. He's not. Well, he would dispute that, and he has given some quite emotional outpourings in the House of Commons about that and other deaths. But are you saying, Siobhan, that you think that this is being treated differently or that people are shying away from it because it's a migrant criminal? Yes, I do. Tell me about that.

27:42I do believe it is because it was illegal. I may be wrong. I may be right. I don't know. But it just seems that a lot of these cases to do with the migrants, the illegals, because not all migrants are bad, the illegals, I think he tends to brush it under the carpet. I honestly believe he brushes it under the carpet. And if we say anything on any social media platform or whatever, he will run it down. He will say we're wrong, we're speaking wrong, etc. And he just doesn't want to listen. The situation with Henry Novak, again, my heart breaks for that poor boy and that video to be honest it really disturbed me I feel for his family of course I do to know that they're feeling the pain I'm feeling but again I think it was because of the two-tier policing the thing with the migrants is it needs to be approached now it needs to be stopped because there is something happening every single day in all parts of the country yes also we need to remember here that Rhiannon had a son.

28:56He's now being looked after, I believe, by you and your other daughter. By my daughter, Alex, yeah. And how's he doing? He's okay. I mean, him and Alex have a fantastic relationship. We all look after him. You know, we all spend a lot of time with him in between school, etc. Alex is great with him. He's great with Alex. He will speak about Rhiannon, Billy gets too upset. He will write little letters at school. I wish I could just get one more hug from heaven. He goes to bed with a picture of Rhiannon by his bedside and a little teddy bear with a bear picture on. We don't speak to him unless he speaks to us because we think it's too much.

29:39So we let him speak to us about it and we answer questions. Obviously, we don't answer the severity. We just say it was a bad man. He knows it was a bad man. but actually telling that child that day, that evening, that Rhiannon had gone to heaven, apart from losing Rhiannon, I think that was probably one of the worst things I've ever experienced because that heartache, myself and Alex can't get past that. No. No. There was another complication during the court proceedings because there was uncertainty about Rhiannon's killer's age. He had claimed to be 19. German documents suggested he was 27.

30:20An age assessment concluded he was over 21. The judge determined he was likely to be between 25 and 28. But I think that's just emblematic of the complete and utter chaos that the immigration system is in, that even at the point where he is standing trial for your daughter's murder, there's no paperwork really to vouch who this guy is, what's motivating him, Yeah, this was our argument, because in Italy and Germany, the paperwork said he's 27. It was 27 when he committed the crime. He's then saying he's 19. He went through four different barristers, and he kept saying, no, no, no, he couldn't speak English, he could speak English, because he answered us in English, answered our barrister in English.

31:09he was adamant he resisted, he was that, refused a bone density test. Refused everything really. And so the judge, the Home Office went in to determine and he was just so, didn't care. You know, it came out that he just sat back in the chair and he just kept saying thank you for the questions. refused the bone density, basically laughing in our faces because there was a small admin in a meeting in the court four days after Rhiannon's funeral. I didn't go. Alex did. And he was meant to have appeared by video link. And the judge says, well, where is he? And the prison guard said, he's not coming out of his cell because he said today's not the day.

32:07just treating you with total contempt yeah was there any point during this trial siobhan that you just wanted to like leap across the table and say to this guy why have you done this yes we remained dignified for rihanna rihanna didn't know violence and if we went in there kicking off ripping people apart it's not going to solve anything it's just going to make the case and the judge is going to be what kind of a family, et cetera. We remained dignified from our daughter, our family, her little boy, first and foremost. When we had to do the two-week trial, he was behind us. We could see him, but he was behind us.

32:47Then he had to come up and stand in the witness box. We were not allowed into that courtroom until he was in that witness box. So he didn't walk past us, et cetera. but we were literally five feet away. Gosh. And we had police, prison guards, because I did say at one time, if I get my hands on him, I'll rip him apart. Yeah. It was anger, it was pain, it was every emotion, I'll be honest. You know, I really wanted to hurt him. I sat here, my family were beside me and behind us, police and prison guards everywhere, and he's literally five feet away. so difficult lying denying everything um looking our barrister michelle healy i'm not sure if it's because she was female he tried to look down on her he didn't win because she's very headstrong he would not look in our direction and it took me all my power not to get up and jump at him yes i think anybody listening or watching this can understand that my heart was broken things i had to listen to the lies from him and the race card pulled infuriated me because we never once in any office even now do not mention race it was one Sudanese man I'm not saying all these migrants are going to come and do this regardless what nationality this was never a thing for us his barrister, his fourth barrister said, well, you can't really do, you can't really accuse this man because we're in Walshaw.

34:27It's a very multicultural town, et cetera. And, you know, there's a lot of people that look like him. I'm not saying it was anybody. It's obvious it was him. He's got the blood on his clothes. He's got Rhiannon's, his DNA was under Rhiannon's nails. Yeah. So for them to switch it to the race card, The judge actually shut him down. Which is good. Yeah. So have you ever met with Keir Starmer about this? No. Do you want to meet with him? Yes and no. I think, yes, I do, because I want answers. Would he be honest with me? I don't know. Two, no, I don't, because I'm afraid of what I would say, because I'm so angry at him that if he tried to sweep off as another incident and you know about the migrant then I'm sorry but I'm very truthful and I'm very I would say what I think and he really won't like me but even if he five minutes just to look me in the face and say I am sorry we have not acknowledged you I'm sorry we've not acknowledged Rhiannon her little boy her sisters as her brother.

35:46And what hurts me more is I'm going through all this. My mum died two days after Rhiannon, the verdict, in October. And the nurse said to my sister, have you ever heard of broken heart syndrome? And she said, yeah, my sister had it, because I was in hospital for a week with it. And they said, your mum had been talking about your niece, her granddaughter, and we think she died of a broken heart. My God. So that's pushed us all over again. Siobhan, there's been some protests in Belfast. There's been protests in Southampton. There is a degree of unrest on the streets. The Prime Minister is saying to everybody, remain calm.

36:28Nobody here, neither you nor I, would ever condone violence. But people are angry. Some of these cases are being kicked around like a political football. what's your sort of reaction to how the public is increasingly finding it difficult to hear the details of yet another case like this? I don't condone the violence side of it. I don't. But sadly, it's going to happen because they think that taking actions... I've been on protests for Rhiannon. I've been on protests for women and children. I mean, there was one incident in Wolverhampton. there was a vigil house for Rhiannon and the lefties turned up and I did lose my temper but it was not long after things what annoys me more is if people all had the same nobody thinks the same nobody's ever going to think the same but the thing in Belfast Southampton etc no I don't condone the violence but i think people feel like we're not being listened to obviously the case in balfast at the moment can't be discussed i totally appreciate that people going out there fighting it's happening in dublin i know i've seen the update in france that um where these migrants are coming from may i add and belgium that asylum seekers were beaten beaten to a pulp because they're going around attacking and robbing people.

37:59How much more before it's turned around and they're deported? How much more before this government say, OK, enough is enough? But what they're going to do is, I've just read something there from Starmer that anybody caught going out fighting, anybody caught going out protesting and this fear of free speech kind of thing, you will be dealt with. I just can't get my head around any of it. It's like it's okay for them to come over and murder, rape, sexually abuse our women and children and our men, but you go out and you defend it. No, not by violence. I don't agree with the violence side of it, but this is how it's got people.

38:40But you are ready to arrest these people. Yeah. None of it makes sense to me. Siobhan, let's end because I don't want this podcast to solely focus on how Rhiannon's life ended so horrifically and indeed to focus on her killer, frankly. Just tell us a bit about your daughter, please, and what she was like in life. Do you know what? As a child, she was a nightmare. She liked to be around adults. She never slept. But she had such a good heart, and that proved in her when she grew up because she was a carer. then she went off into hospitality then she went off to work in this hotel was i worried yes i was worried i'm mom of course i was worried she was 27 years old i couldn't ground her rihanna would give you a stranger on the street her last pound her nieces and nephews and her son a daughter you know my son laughs and he says oh if i told rihanna i like that mom she would have turned up my door with a box of it these are the memories we have of rihanna she wasn't a nasty person she never had no malice in her i was always please stand up for yourself rihanna please don't let people talk to you like that stand up for yourself she wasn't that way my other children are a bit like me they're very kind if you say it as it is and we don't like the truth then i'm sorry you know rihanna wasn't like that but one thing about Rhiannon and the police even said when they spoke to people that if she was at work or with her friends you can guarantee somebody was laughing because Rhiannon had that way about her she became she was my best friend I had four daughters a son Rhiannon came to live with me and I'm glad she did I'm glad I got to spend them last couple of years we did everything together did she deserve to die no could i wish i could turn the clock back yeah but one thing about her is i know she had the purest of hearts i think that's a very fitting point at which to end siobhan white thank you very very much indeed we send love to your grandson thank you and we will endeavor to try and highlight this case further because i think having discussed all this with you you have got a lot of questions that need answers yeah thank you i appreciate that thank you very much for joining me on the daily tea today quite how mums like siobhan white it's a bit like emma webber who we referenced in that interview have the strength to carry on i find it quite unfathomable i mean it's hugely admirable she's saying i'm not giving up on this and i salute her bravery and courage and determination but again we how many times do we need to sit in this podcast studio and hear cases of abject state failure that end up with people losing their children.

41:35Do you remember when we interviewed, Rachel and I interviewed the lady whose husband and son died in that dreadful submarine accident? Yeah, the Titan. Yes. She was very self-controlled. And I sensed when talking to her that I was talking to the bit that could cope and function. Yeah. There was probably behind that like this deep well of confusion, despair, desperate mourning. Yeah. And what she had to do every day was get the bit of her that can function and sort of wind it up and present it to the world and let it go. And I think sometimes that's what people who've been through that kind of experience are like.

42:19You're seeing the bit that can cope, but you just know that behind that, there's someone falling apart every day and trying to piece themselves back together. And I just feel so incredibly sorry for them. We'll be back tomorrow, 5pm.

42:50Thank you.

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