Starmer’s great big Brexit betrayal

0:27The Telegraph And me, Tim Stanley.

0:41Well, isn't this a surprise, Tim? And we're joined in the studio by the brilliant Alistair Heath, editor of the Sunday Telegraph and ace columnist for this great news organisation. UK government readies Brexit dynamic alignment bill. It's not just a kind of anecdotal reset or warm words towards the EU, but actual legislation, Tim, is being readied apparently this spring or summer, establishing a legal framework for UK -EU alignment. The man who, as shadow Brexit secretary, did attempt multiple times to reverse the referendum, Keir Starmer, under Jeremy Corbyn. Shock horror is continuing his quest to stop Brexit, perhaps not quite as overtly as he states, but through legislation.

1:31All the while insisting that's not what he wants to do. But in the same way that we discover that the private members bill for euthanasia, we now think probably had top government support. Yeah. Likewise, these little initiatives, if you put them together, all amount to what we suspect is a top level government strategy for getting back into the EU. So we have already had the EU reset deal in May that surrendered fishing rights to British waters for the next 12 years. We've already got the government talking about signing up to a single market in food, signing up to a single market in electricity.

2:06and we are rejoining the Erasmus scheme for student exchanges from 2027, which we absolutely don't need to do. We've already negotiated under the Tories the Turing scheme. Now, the genius of that is that Britain paid for British students to go abroad, so it helped British students. Rejoining Erasmus, we end up paying for European students to come here. Yes, to learn English, even though they speak it better than some of our own citizens. And we suspect it'll be a backdoor. I'll tell a story to give an example of what we should be negotiating over, which is over the Christmas period, I visited Prague.

2:42And Prague is rolling out these new electric gates, which people who are not from the Schengen area, so that would include the UK, have to go through. It's a means of collecting biometric data. So you go up to the machine, you enter your details, and it takes prints of your fingers, etc. Now, being European, a third of the machines didn't work. And because they don't trust the machinery, they then make you go to a second queue where you have to repeat the entire process, but this time to a human functionary. We ended up queuing for two and a half hours to get into Prague. Meanwhile, if you are an EU citizen, you can walk straight through the electric gates.

3:28Now, when I described this on Twitter, because I was so furious about it, a lot of people said, isn't this the man who said we should vote for Brexit? You've done this to yourself. But when I returned to the UK, I couldn't help but notice a sign that said, EU citizens as well as UK can use our electric gates. There is absolutely no reason why UK people should not be allowed to use European electronic gates. My point is, that's an example, A, of the European mindset. They will actually put off tourists because they insist upon these checks, so they are self-harming in the name of regulation and possibly irritating the Brits because they dared to vote for Brexit.

4:12Contrast it with the British attitude of, we just want your money, so you're welcome to come in. But my question also is, why hasn't the UK government negotiated that? Because they don't want to. That's actually useful. Because the UK government, the anti-Brexit, Keir Starmer and his chums in the cabinet are perfectly happy for us to be punished by Europe so that he can then argue for these sorts of realignments. French-born but British Alastair Heath. What's your take on this? A model of integration. A model of... Ho-hi-ho-hi-ho. Like all... I think you'd find that the original Eurosceptics included many, many dual citizens and people of an international background because, you know, the EU project is anti-internationalist.

4:59It's a progressive, collectivist, harmonisation project which wants to stamp out all national differences and centralised power. And Europe's strength at its best was its decentralised nature, the fact that you had so many different cultures effectively competing against each other. But I digress. The main issue is simple. Labour has collapsed in the polls. were starting 2026 with Labour on 17%, according to YouGov. Behind the Conservatives for the first time since the last election. Yes, the Tories on 19 % and Reform on 26%. So it's a catastrophe for the Labour Party, right? It's facing annihilation.

5:34You've got the May local elections coming up. They're going to be nuked, basically. What's left of them? Yes. And you've got two pro-Brexit parties, in fact, probably radically pro-Brexit parties now, in Reform and Kemi Baden-Knox Conservative Party ahead in the polls. So Keir Starmer, who is desperate, is looking for some sort of USP, some sort of mechanism by which he can recreate the old anti-Brexit coalition. And so he clearly thinks that rejoining the EU, either de facto or going the whole way, is an answer to grab votes back from the Lib Dems, from the Greens, from the SNP, from all the other assorted left-wingers.

6:13Guess what? It won't work. First of all, people don't really care that much about the issue at the moment, right? Secondly, they're fatally, and this is the more important bit, they're fatally misreading the polls. There are lots of opinion polls that show that people regret Brexit, so-called. But in reality, what people regret is everything that's happened since 2016. The general incompetence and total cross-party failure of the British establishment on just about every issue, from immigration to energy to living standards to GDP and so on. If you ask people a different question, which is, who do you want to govern Britain?

6:47do you want power to be exercised in the UK by people who actually do what you say or do you want power to be exercised abroad? Overwhelmingly, they choose self-government. So if there were a new campaign to rejoin the EU and a proper campaign to stay out of the EU, I'm telling you the campaign to stay out will win, especially when you read the fine print of what rejoining would mean. But nonetheless, this is not going to stop Starmer and he's going to push on with trying to effectively betray the electorate and prove once again that what he said in his manifesto as zero value. Well, let's just re-examine what he did say in the manifesto because he has continually maintained apparent red lines that we aren't going to rejoin the customs union or the single market.

7:29Let's also have a listen to what he said to the BBC's Laura Koonsberg on Sunday about his aspirations for closer alignment with our continental cousins. We've already taken steps on food and agriculture to align with the single market. That's the sovereign decision that we have taken. I think we should get closer. And if it's in our national interest, in our interest, to have even closer alignment with the single market, then we should consider that. We should go that far. We're already aligning on energy, reconnecting to energy in Europe, on emissions. But I think the single market further alignment, as I say, if it's in our interest to do so, we should take that step.

8:12So what do you mean by that? So countries like Switzerland and Norway have access to the single market, which is one of the biggest economic trading zones in the world. A very important one. But leaving the single market was one of the cornerstones of leaving the EU. So what exactly do you mean by being closer to the single market? Because anyone else who has access has to follow their rules. And they also have to allow freedom of movement where an unlimited number of EU citizens could come once again and live in this country. So what exactly do you mean? So what I mean by that is if you look at the deal we've already done with the EU on food and agriculture, we're aligning our rules so that we can access the single market.

8:54So that's a sovereign decision that we've made as a government that is in our interest to do so. What I'm saying is there are other areas where we should consider, whether it's in our interest, to do the same and align with the single market. Now, that needs to be considered on a sort of issue by issue, sector by sector basis. And it is interesting, isn't it, that the Liberal Democrats have been massively pushing with their own 10-minute rule bill a rejoining of the Customs Union, which was signed in December by 13 Labour MPs who stuck their necks out. That's what they think you can get away with, by the way.

9:29The Lib Dems would love to say just rejoin the EU, but they've got it in their heads that Customers Union, that sounds inoffensive and most people don't know what it is. Well, I had a spokesman for the party on Lisa Smart at the weekend and she was tying herself in enormous knots because as Alistair points out, what that requires is for us to tear up all the trade deals we've already done to effectively adopt vassal state status because we would be rule takers, not rule makers. Number 10 has been telling Politico, oh, no, we're going to have a decision-making role to play when it comes to this alignment deal.

10:05And no, we're not going to just have to do what the EU says. We're going to have a bit of a say in it. But if you did move towards rejoining the customs union, you have to take whatever deals are struck, regardless of whether they're in Britain's interests or not. And I'm not convinced by his negotiating prowess, given the Chagos deal. He's not trying to negotiate, don't forget. He's just trying to sign up. He's trying to surrender. That is his whole purpose, right? To surrender to the EU because he wants the UK to be subsumed into the EU. No one's interested in negotiation. You know, you don't carve out.

10:34That's the opposite of what you want. You want harmonization. If you're a rejoiner, that's what you want. You want to be a vassal. That's what being a rejoiner means. You want to be a vassal. Now, it's all completely insane because what recent events keep exposing is that soft power is finished, that the EU is a continent in utter catastrophic decline, right? You've got Donald Trump saying very savage things about Greenland, which I don't agree with, by the way. But what can the EU do about any of this? It's laughable. We are incredibly staggeringly weak. When I mean we, I mean the UK, I mean the European powers.

11:08Now, there's a few signs of slight rebirth in places like Poland that happen to just be next to Russia. Their economy is doing very well. They're spending more and more on defence and so on. But as a whole, the European continent, the whole of European civilization is an accelerating decline. I mean, it's laughable, right? I mean, just look at what's happening in technology, in finance, in everything. Everything's in America. There's only two superpowers now, America and their sphere of influence, and China and their sphere of influence. And Europe is just failing and falling faster and faster behind.

11:40So the idea that there's any solution whatsoever, any upside whatsoever in becoming a vassal of the declining EU is laughable. You know, these are debates that we had in the 1970s. In the 1970s, Germany was still booming, right? Even Italy started to boom in the 80s and all that sort of stuff. These days are gone. They're gone. Yeah. It is nuts, by the way, to be reminded of Germany's growth rate since 2020. 2.1%. Meanwhile, we grew by 7.5%, France by 9%, Italy 6.2%. So Germany, the great beacon of the EU project, has failed economically, quote, despite Brexit. And yet this is the model that some of these Labourites aspire to.

12:24Now, it was quite interesting to read at the weekend Red Wall MP Dan Cardin, who, like many in Labour, has been on somewhat of a political journey. He was a supporter of Corbyn. Now he's aligned himself to Maurice Glassman on the blue Labour side of the divide. And he, like you, Alistair, points out, and I quote, the European Union is itself a low-growth bloc with a declining share of global GDP. The more important point he makes, however, is that you are going to lose Red Bull seats like mine, Keir Starmer, if you go ahead with this Liberal Democrats in disguise plot. He's right, isn't he? Why on earth, if he is to maintain his, OK, albeit low, loveless landslide vote share, he absolutely needs those seats that Boris Johnson won in 2019 and then lost to survive politically.

13:17I think it's too late for that. He's lost all those seats already. So the next question is, which urban seats does he lose? Right. You know, which suburban seats that he has does he lose? The Red Wall's gone. The working class is gone. The problem you've got is the left-wing middle class is now massively split with the Greens surging, the independent candidates gaining ground in a number of places. You've got the Liberal Democrats and you've got all the nationalists, for example, the West Nationalists and the Scottish Nationalists. So are you saying, Alistair, that when we look at that latest polling by YouGov revealing that the Conservatives are ahead of Labour, you take out the reform on 26%, you take out the Conservatives on whatever they may be at the moment, 19%, and then the so-called candidates for a God help us all progressive alliance are all then just going to fight for that side of the ledger?

14:06Yes, I think that's where you're at at the moment. The votes are not shifting from reform back to Labour. If there's been any shift at all, it's been the Tories have picked up a few votes from reform. So there's transfers. There's now a left-wing group and a right-wing group of voters. We don't really know how large these groups are. So YouGov puts the right-wing bloc quite low at maybe around 45%, 46%, I can't 44%. Other pollsters put it much closer to 50%. So you've got the right-wing group and you've got the left-wing group. And the name of the game is to fight for votes within those groups.

14:37So do the votes go to the Tories or do they go to reform? Do the votes go to the Greens or do they go to Labour or do they go to the Lib Dems? But then how much do we read into Zach Polanski last week saying that if he was going to do any pacts, he would do it with Labour, but only if Andy Burnham was in charge? Who is sympathetic towards realignment with Europe. Yes, so both Andy Burnham and the other key contender to replace Keir Starmer at some point. Wes Streeting. Let's see Wes Streeting's quote, and it is as follows. the best way to boost growth would be a deeper trading relationship with the EU.

15:11We've also had David Lammy, the Justice Secretary and Deputy PM, of course, saying it was, quote, self-evident that leaving the European Union badly damaged our economy. But you see, they were talking about growth there because they've strangled growth with the budgets, right? And there is a narrative emerging that the one thing, the one tool we have left is alignment with Europe. Let's tear down those trade barriers. and we're so desperate we might be able to eke a little bit of growth out of extra trade across the channel. The problem with that is Dan Cardin mentions this in his piece. Actually, there would be some economic harm at this point to joining the customs union, which is we would have to tear up the trade deals that we have signed and we'd have to now start taking rules from Europe.

15:54And that's a problem because Europe really is diverging from America and the developing economies in terms of its economic priorities. I thought this in Prague with our mistreatment at the airport. I thought this is classic old money attitude of this place is beautiful, so people will always come here. So we can treat tourists as badly as we like. Everything's crowded. Everything's overpriced. And we're really rude. It does sound a little bit like London. By contrast, Donald Trump is quietly knocking down and rebuilding the White House. He doesn't care about the ancient architecture, right? That's a new money approach.

16:29How many tech companies have Europe produced, let alone Britain? Well, that's the point. That's the point. The future is AI and tech, both of which require vast amounts of energy and an innovatory, low-regulatory culture. Europe is frightened of AI. Its approach is to regulate it so it can control it, plus it's also generally moving down that renewable path. So Britain is now trapped between those two options, the American anti-regulatory approach, the European high-regulatory approach. It's got to make a choice. And Cardin's point is when we say it's a low-growth area versus a high-growth area, really that's another way of saying America's doing capitalism properly.

17:10But also the alignment bill is specifically referencing energy. What I can't understand is surely because of Brexit we can pick and choose what we voluntarily align with. It may be right because of the border and everything, with Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland, that we want to align on, for instance, agriculture and other issues. But why would you legislate for it so you're forced to do something you might not want to do, Alistair? Well, first of all, I don't want to align on these things. I think we need to diverge. In fact, we have diverged in a few areas. So some of Brexit's upside potential has started to be realised in a few areas.

17:48The problem is, of course, if you unwind these, you further diminish the gains from Brexit while maintaining or increasing the cost, which is completely insane, obviously. Secondly, the only good news in all of these things is that basically the UK is passing laws which can be undone. And if reform or the Tories get into power and if the Tories actually decide to be proper Tories this time around, they can just scrap all these laws very, very quickly. So this is not a permanent re-engagement into the EU unless we end up with treaties which, of course, are harder to break. I suspect that these treaties will have to be broken if you have a right when governments...

18:21In fact, it's a certainty that if we get a proper right-wing government in two, three years' time in this country, all of these treaties will be torn up. So this whole affair is ludicrous, to be honest. What is the truth of trade barriers and red tape? Because a correspondent actually wrote into the Daily Tea yesterday that people are going on about this bureaucratic problem post-Brexit, but as far as I can tell, there isn't a problem with the French sending our supermarkets huge quantities of brie. I mean, are there trade barriers that businesses are struggling to get through, as the Liberal Democrats and some labour rights claim?

18:56There are some minor trade barriers that didn't used to exist, right? And all other things equal, you might not want these trade barriers to exist. However, there's costs and benefits to everything. We would gain far more from having our own laws and pursuing very, very strong pro-growth policies in areas such as technology, AI, all sorts of things like energy, deregulation, all that kind of stuff. We will gain far more from that than we will gain from some slight trade barriers that will come from us having divergent regulatory standards on some issues. This is the key point. Countries, if you just look at America, America is booming because of what is done with energy, what is done with technology, what is done with finance, entrepreneurship, that sort of stuff.

19:40They are growing because are inventing new things. They're learning to make new things more cheaply, more efficiently, using fewer resources. And there's a whole energy thing where they massively increased energy production of every kind, by the way. They've increased solar energy, but they've massively increased oil production over the last few years, as we know. So this is what Britain should be doing. We should be unleashing our own entrepreneurial spirits. We need massive numbers of entrepreneurial businesses to be set up, new tech firms, new finance firms, all that sort of stuff, right? That's what we need to do, not worrying about tiny trade barriers when it comes to some particular product with the EU.

20:14The EU is dying economically. Nothing is changing. It's getting worse, not better. And why would we want to be attached to those people? The bottom line is our problems are homegrown. We have deliberately pursued policies that have ruined our economic prospects. The Labour is doing it at a massive rate, but of course the Tories also did it. We basically decided to adopt extremely expensive energy. terrible, terrible policy. We decided to make what was left of our manufacturing completely uncompetitive and shut down large swathes because of these high energy costs. We regulated finance out of everything.

20:51We used to have a very entrepreneurial financial industry. Yes, occasionally it blew up, but the point is we decided to throw the whole thing away. And we've done that with every industry. We have done this to ourselves. We have regulated ourselves to death. We have taxed ourselves to death. We've chased away millionaires and billionaires in their hundreds, if not tens of thousands when it comes to millionaires. We've just told people, don't come here if you want to make money. We don't like rich people. We will tax you. You know, Labour's introducing a mansion tax. You know, we've done all this kind of stuff.

21:19It is completely nuts. We should be a country that attracts capital and rewards hard work and innovation. That's how you get economic growth, not by rejoining the EU. It's an absurdity. It's a lie. It's delusion. It's cowardice. And it smacks of a complete lack of imagination. Well, on that positive note, Alistair, we'll just get you to put your city boy hat back on because we're going to discuss next bloodbath on the high street as two major retailers announce their closing.

22:01you talked about the domestic situation there Alistair never has it been more starkly demonstrated just how economically troubling times are than on the high street and for our hospitality sector so we got news this morning that Claire's the accessories chain which Alistair as a father of daughters I'm sure you're familiar with, and another company called the Original Factory Shop are being put into administration, risking 2 ,500 jobs. Their owner, Modela Capital, said, a combination of very weak consumer confidence, highly adverse government fiscal policies, and continued cost inflation is causing many established and much-loved businesses to suffer badly.

22:40What is the reality, do we think, of the state of the high street and hospitality right now? because, again, we've got a succession of cabinet ministers and the prime minister trying to take us back in time to Brexit, to global headwinds, that's the chosen term of excuse, isn't it? Trump, tariffs, war in Ukraine and all the rest of it. But, I mean, this seems to be referencing very, very recent events that have occurred under Labour. I think two things are happening at the same time. The first is there's always a process of creative destruction in business and retail is no different. In fact, it's definitely the case in retail.

23:17You always have some businesses shutting and new businesses being launched and obviously a large chunk of the retail industry shifted online, right? So that's the first point. Nonetheless, we should always feel extremely sorry for people who lose their jobs. But it is also quite clear that what's happening at the moment in Britain is that the government's policies are catastrophic and the lack of economic growth is catastrophic. There is no extra money being generated, which means that consumer-facing sectors are facing a crisis. High and higher taxes is being extremely damaging. High energy costs are extremely damaging.

23:50The whole shebang of Labour's disastrous policies are coming home to roost. And you've had a lot of businesses failing or being unable to grow or having to shrink as a result of these negative government policies. Running a pub now has become essentially a hobby. No one can do it for profit because the amount that you actually take back from every pint sold is so ridiculously small. and things have just got worse. Rachel Reeves has blocked new financial support for pubs despite Sir Keir Starmer admitting that many, quote, will struggle with the new business rate changes. As you know, the COVID era of relief on business rates has come to an end.

24:27And at the same time, some village pubs face paying business rates for the first time under a revaluation of their relatable values announced after the budget. Just anecdotally on that, I spoke to a landlord over Christmas who was paying rates of around£21 ,000 and is now paying rates of£169 ,000. Well, I say paying, I just don't think they're going to be able to survive. Now go under. Is it possible, do you think, that publicans will become the new farmers? Well, I think that they should mount such a campaign because the reversal of the family farms tax, or at least that increasing of the threshold from£1 million to£2.5 million, is a massive win for those who drove tractors down Whitehall.

25:10It's a win, but it's an embarrassment for the government too. And I don't think the public ever rewards a U-turn, even if they agree with it. No, indeed, because it exposes the government's ineptitude on the whole subject. And it left me thinking, is this what I now need to do as an income taxpayer? What stage of rebellion? Should I just drive around Whitehall honking my horn until someone finally U-turns and gives me my money back? I suspect if you're the only one doing that, the impact won't be the one you hope it would be. You take my point that we've reached the stage where governments do terrible, terrible policies and then entire sectors feel forced to come out and campaign against them.

25:44And we don't even know where we stand because the policy can and will be reversed if it's sufficiently embarrassed. For all intents and purposes, and even though the politicians themselves may not see it that way, we've waged war on pubs in this country for a very long time, 20, 30 years at least. and it's been a disaster, a terrible, terrible cultural catastrophe for this country, which used to be known for its pubs. And there's been a massive reduction in the number of pubs. And in many areas, you've now had an 80, 90, or even 100 % closure rate. All the pubs are gone. There's places in London where there used to be five or six pubs.

26:15There are now no pubs. There's places that used to be 10 pubs and maybe one pub. So huge, huge reduction in the number of pubs. But the politicians are passing laws that facilitate this. With the kinds of taxes you've just been describing, or, you know, it's been a complete catastrophe. But do we think there's tension between the Prime Minister and the Chancellor over this? And I say that because Tom Kerridge, the celebrity chef, spoke to LBC yesterday and said, look, the business secretary, Peter Kyle, is listening and is trying to make things better, particularly for pub and restaurant owners.

26:48But there seems to be a roadblock in place at the hands of Rachel Reeves. Yes, but you need a dramatic change in public policy, a dramatic change in the tax system, if you were to make any difference. Because you've got all sorts of technological and other trends going against that industry in any case. You know, for example, when it comes to meals, for example, the price of raw materials has shot up and all that sort of stuff. So you've got all that kind of thing going on. You've got the energy costs going on. And then you have all the taxes and the regulations and all that stuff. You've got the housing crisis at the same time, which means that it's always worthwhile converting pubs into housing, for example.

27:24So you've got all these pressures going on at the same time. So if you wanted to reverse that, a slight tweak in one of these policies, you know, it may slightly slow down the rate of the pub industry's collapse, but it won't work. What you need is a dramatic change. And we're never going to get that with this government. In fact, you're never going to get it with any government unless we get a government that literally wants to change the entire British welfare state and, you know, wants a radical reset of what Britain is. Also, we haven't even accounted for the workers' rights bill. So you've got the national insurance increase coming into play in April.

27:58And then you've got this legislation, which, OK, it did water down this right not to be sacked on day one, when usually we have a three-month probationary period for new employees. But I think it's also that we're governed by roundheads who don't approve of drinking. Right, right. But that's been the case for decades. Or smoking. Well, they just want to ban any individual choice. Part of the decline of the pubs is the ban on indoor smoking. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was one important step towards it. But also Labour MPs will not mourn the closure of a business that sells alcohol. There's something in them.

28:29They're all little Stafford Crips. They really don't mind the thought that people are no longer getting drunk. But it is staggering that the government gets more of the cost of a pint than a landlord. I mean, that is just an aberration, really. It's just unfair and cruel and preposterous. But also we've got that bill is going to provide for increased rights for parental leave and statutory sick pay, end of fire and rehire and zero hours contracts. Although you quite like this bill, don't you, Tim? You have a little row about it. Do you remember? I do. People wrote in and said, what is Tim thinking?

29:04I do, but cut the taxes on beer. There are other ways of making pubs profitable without squeezing the workers. Well, I'm obviously entirely opposed to this labour market regulation bill, whatever it's called these days, as I'm opposed to much labour market regulation because I think it makes it much less likely that people hire people. And I think we're just gradually becoming like France. If you go to France, France is a very automated society which has some upsides. It's increased productivity in some ways. But basically, you've got machines. In a local village that I visited recently in France, there's no longer any shops, no longer any bakeries, nothing.

29:41You've got one bakery for 10 villages and there's basically vending machines for fresh bread and fresh croissants. What? Sacre bleu! The baker turns up at 7am, 6am, puts a few loaves of bread, goes to the other one and so on, and people just go there because everything else is shut. It's too expensive to employ people. You have to sell 500 baguettes a day or whatever if you want to break even, and then that'll go up to 600 or whatever. The economics is dead. And you're starting to see that in this country. You're going to see more and more machines, more and more automation. You're already seeing that in, of course, a lot of restaurants where you now order on these screens.

30:16Or a QR code at the table. Yes, exactly. And all of that stuff is reducing labour costs. Now, progress comes by boosting productivity, but normally it doesn't come at the expense of service. No. Is there anything, by the way, more ridiculous than the waiter who comes up with a pad and then says, yeah, order from the QR code? But you're physically here. I had this in Subway recently. Two blokes, one on the sandwiches, one on the till. And I said, oh, can I order? And then they were like, no, can you put it into the screen between us? And I thought, this isn't only just terrible for customer service.

30:50It's terrible for humanity. Oh, so I can no longer have a bit of bantz with the guy making the sandwich and the guy taking the money because we're all going to do this through screens. It's too expensive. You eat in Subway? I quite like a ham sub with a full salad. OK, well, what annoys me in Waitrose is the self-service tills where they have to employ two or three people to help you because they never work. And that people can just feed from. And people apparently just walk away with the goods. Can we try and end on a more positive note? Alastair Heath, do you have anything positive to say about the UK in 2026?

31:26Hmm, that's going to be difficult. Yes, well, I think that we are... I think our political establishment is going to be forced to accept the changed global reality. And I think the pressure to increase defence spending is going to mount. It's increasingly ludicrous how we've allowed our armed forces to basically wither. It's terrible. It's a catastrophe. It's a betrayal. And when you see what's happening internationally, it becomes increasingly ludicrous that we're pursuing this policy. And I think it's going to be harder and harder for Keir Starmer and everybody else to pretend that they're doing something to address this while actually doing nothing at all.

32:03I mean, you know, the UK has done nothing to increase defence spending, despite the promise that at some point, you know, some of the aid money is going to start being allocated to defence. So I think maybe a bit more realism about the decadence of this country's foreign policy. And I think that would be a good thing. I don't think the change will come from inside this country. I think it will be forced upon this country from outside. I think the best point that was made during the Venezuela statement yesterday was by Tom Tugendhat. They were all saying we've got to stand by Denmark. and Tugendhat said, you can't because you don't have the military to do it so the subject is moot.

32:38So I think we're concluding that things are going to get so bad that they can only get a bit better. Yes, I think that's a good way of putting it. We'll be back tomorrow, 5pm.

33:02Thank you.