Suella Braverman: Britain will be a third-world country if Labour stays in power

0:03The Telegraph.

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0:50Orders are flying, tickets are stacking, and the guests should never feel the chaos. Toast keeps our team organized so we can serve more people, stay consistent and keep growing. Visit toasttab.com to learn more. Pay testimonial from an actual Toast customer. Britain will become a third world country unless reform wins the next general election. That's the stark warning from Suella Braverman. Also, she tells us that ethnicity is real. Don't let the left bully you into thinking otherwise. We are in deep, deep crises in this country, and these are profound problems. We are broke. People are struggling to keep their heads above water.

1:30Immigration is out of control. We've got massive security threats. Our schools are becoming more interested in left-wing campaigning than actually teaching our kids to get jobs and read and write. And reversing this requires brutal honesty.

1:57The Reform MP Suella Braverman joins us in the studio. Lovely to see you back in the Daily Tea. You're here with your new book. Give it a plug. Patriot. Patriot. Empire, Betrayal and Hope. And we're going to get into some of the themes of that over the course of this interview. But first of all, your reaction to the results in the midterms. Tim and I recorded an episode yesterday entitled, Is MAGA Dead? What's your answer to that question? Well, I think it's going through a crisis. And these are an awful set of election results for the Republicans. You know, losing states like Texas, for example, and the massive swings away from the GOP have to send a message to the White House.

2:40Because, you know, I kind of agree with the analysis that's come out, which is I think Americans are struggling with the cost of living, which is a knock on effect of the war in Iran. And, you know, the military action there was supposed to be short and sharp and quickly executed. It's now into its eighth month. And I think it's a real lesson for all of us really around the world. And it's J.D. Vance's analysis that it's all about the Iran war. He's obviously sought to distance himself from the president. There is a special link to your party because, of course, Nigel Farage, your party leader, is very close to Trump.

3:13And I wonder how that perhaps affects things for him and reform. Well, I mean, I think the issue with the Iran war is really complex. Iran is an enemy. They're the head of the snake, as I put them, because they're funding global terrorism. They're building a bomb and no way on earth in a peaceful world that we want should the Iranians have access to nuclear weapons. And they're in breach of international agreements. And president after president has attempted to resolve the aggressive, the aggression from Iran and not quite succeeded. Trump has tried to solve it with force and he's found that the military plan hasn't necessarily worked.

3:56the Ayatollahs have proved to be a more formidable enemy. And so I think that it's a really complex subject because we do need to deal with Iran. From a UK point of view, we don't have an armed forces. We don't have the personnel. We don't have the funding to be able to get involved in foreign wars, even if we wanted to. We've got to think about building up our own military resilience, first of all. But I think that, you know, ultimately, I think a big question on foreign policy needs to be asked for by the Republicans right now. But on reform, though, because almost the rise of Trump 2.0 coincided with the rise of reform.

4:36Both of you now are falling backwards in the polling. So are you worried about what's going on in America and how it reflects not just on your party, but also on your leader? No, listen, we're two different countries. We've got different contexts. There are similarities, of course. And the British right has always been in conversation, in dialogue, sometimes in close relationship with the American right. That's been the case for decades. Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan were a very famous example of that. So I think, no, there are still differences. We are not the same as the Republicans in the UK.

5:15Here, I think, as I said, we do not have an armed forces which is ready to be deployed even if we wanted to. So the concept and the prospect of getting involved in foreign wars is an impossible one for any prime minister or any right wing politician to properly entertain. We don't have a deployable navy in this country. We have the lowest members numbers in our army in 40 years. So there's a big difference. We're not the same military power as the Americans. You know, getting involved in the Middle East is not the same prospect. And I think so here. You know, there are lessons. The big issue for British people is the cost of living.

5:59People are feeling crippled by rising energy prices caused by the Middle East conflict. They are crippled by punitive taxes. I meet a lot of business people, small business people, white van men and women, who are just sometimes in tears telling me they're working all hours. They sometimes work seven days a week. They are just struggling to keep their heads above water. So the cost of living and the punishing taxes that we're living in in this country are, I think, the number one concern for Brits. And I think any party that wants to speak for British people today needs to have an answer to that issue, combined with the immigration crisis.

6:38OK, well, the Prime Minister is speaking for the British people when he meets with Commonwealth leaders, where he has agreed to engage in, quote, structured, time-bound, inclusive and good faith. Those are all synonyms for very, very long. talks about the historic harms caused by the transatlantic slave trade. Now, your book is a personal take on Britain's relationship with the world, how the world has shaped us, how we've shaped other countries. What do you think? Okay, let's start with an apology. Do you think Britain at this stage, because the Prime Minister has ruled out direct reparations, do you think Britain should be in the business of apologizing to Commonwealth countries?

7:17No, no. We are in the 21st century. neither you nor I or Camilla, bears any responsibility for what happened 300 years ago. And apologies have already been made. Prince Albert made an apology. I think Tony Blair made an apology. We don't need to keep apologising. We have done it and now we should move on and look to the future. And secondly, these talks that have been announced today, they sound innocuous. They sound like very sensible, but they should carry a massive health warning. because that is exactly how the Chagos disaster began. The last Conservative government, last Conservative Foreign Secretary, began talks with Mauritius about the Chagos Islands, which is basically reparations in disguise.

8:06And it ended with a£30 billion price tag added on to the British people. And so talks might look harmless, but they are anything but. The minute you open that dialogue, you are actually opening a Pandora's box. And it is very reckless. It's very dangerous. And it's only going to end one way because there are many empire and left-wing ideologues in the Foreign Office, in the Labour Party, who believe we should be paying reparations. They believe that British people today should be paying billions of pounds to the Caribbean countries for things that happened centuries ago. Of course, slavery was abhorrent, but we need to draw a line.

8:48And today's Brits should not be paying a penny in any misguided errand on reparations. And I talk about it in my book. There's another aspect of empire in the book. I agree with all of that. And especially you say today's Brits, of course, many of them are not the same Brits as 300 years ago. And I find it bizarre that we should ask that someone who is the descendant of immigrants to pay reparations for something done to their ancestors. It doesn't make any sense to me. But on balance, do you think we should apologise in principle? Should we feel guilt about the slave trade? Let's put aside the formal apology.

9:26Just how should Britain in 2026 feel about its past in relation to slavery? Well, I think history is nuanced and mixed. So there were awful things that all countries did throughout history. And it's right that we acknowledge the wrongs that were done. And it's right to say that slavery was wrong. And it's also right to say that there were great things that came out of the British Empire. My ancestors, as I trace in the book, I worked with a historian on the first few chapters, were not slaves, but they were indentured labourers from India. Like a lot of white people were too. Yeah, absolutely.

10:05Going from England to America. Absolutely. And we trace it. And in the 1800s, my ancestors left India and abject poverty under the British Empire. They took an offer of indentured labor by British sugarcane owners and they went to Mauritius. And it was brutal and it was harsh and it breached every employment law that we know today. And it was a way out. despite that brutal brutality and the harshness it gave my ancestors the chance to own property to earn a wage the girls for the first time were educated people like my grandmother and my mother were able to work and i write movingly in the book actually about how my grandmother kind of broke free from a very strict hindu um traditional household to actually work for the first time in the 1950s, encouraged by English bosses in Mauritius and more broadly, innovation, investment, healthcare, infrastructure.

11:10You know, you can see the same story of progress from the British Empire and the colonies throughout the empire, actually, whether it's the Caribbean or Mauritius or Kenya or India. And many of those countries are actually benefiting from many of those foundations today. So yes, there was brutality in slavery, but there was also immense good. And also the other issue is where do you stop with the guilt tripping? Because Brits were enslaved by the Vikings. The Egyptians used slavery. The Romans used slavery. The Ottomans, all empires throughout history were known for using slavery. Africans themselves in Ghana, where the slaves were taken from were brokering and negotiating slavery.

11:56They were as complicit as the English slave traders. So if you want to feel guilty, you know, it's an unended and open-ended question that can't be answered. I mean, Suella, we're both Catholics. We've got never-ending life of guilt at the end of the day. But that's personal. That is personal. I'm guilty for things I've personally done. Yeah, I mean, I don't even know if I'm there because I've laughed. But countries can also feel cocky. Of course. Corporatively guilty for things too. Of course. And we discussed earlier, does Germany have to continue to atone for the sins of the Nazis? Where does this end?

12:30And you made the point about surely there should be a statute of limitations on our culpability for crimes that committed centuries ago. What has been interesting about your role in this debate, and it again brings the book in, and coincidentally, Tim's appearing on Question Time tonight, and the last time you appeared, you sparked a little bit of controversy with your sense of national identity. Which you were asked about. Yeah, true. I just want to say that because people sort of phrased it as if you keep bringing it up. Correct. It's something which, like we're about to do, people keep asking you about.

12:59You're bringing it up. I'm bringing it up because I am intrigued by it. Because on one hand, I would say that because of the stance you've taken against the Conservatives, you were once a fully fledged member of that party, former Home Secretary, chairwoman of the ERG, very much at the centre of Tory politics. You obviously took the decision you did to join reform. You did that for self-proclaimed patriotic reasons that along with Nigel Farage and others, you've got this sense that Britain is broken and you want to fix it. And therefore, I think when you of all people turned around and said, well, listen, I identify as British, but I'm not sure I'm English.

13:35People took a step back and they did that in the context of thinking, well, OK, because of your Indian heritage that maybe you aren't. But what does that therefore make your children? but also in the context, in the background, of a lot of criticism, largely of restore, the sort of incubating a degree of ethno-nationalism that is then questioning people with your colour of skin and black people as to whether they really belong in this country. So explain to us what point you were trying to make there. Yes, I was making what I thought was a wholly uncontroversial point, which is that my nationality is British, I have a British passport, and the kind of thread throughout my family and my background is the British, is Britain actually.

14:18And my ethnicity is Asian. Just like I'm an ethnic minority. We're not the same ethnicity. I hope you would agree. Yes. And I am not of the English ethnicity. I am of Asian ethnicity. Now for that to be so controversial, you know, it is quite staggering. The lefties went bananas. the Tory party, Kemi went bananas and it's quite an interesting state of affairs that people don't want to talk about this, they want to call you racist when you want to talk about how you describe yourself and it actually speaks to a deeper problem that we're facing in this country which is a bit of a an identity crisis I actually think the notion of British citizenship which is connected to this has been devalued, is unclear because of the disaster of mass immigration.

15:09There are so many people here in this country that a lot of us feel like strangers in this country now. And so I think there's a broader and deeper problem about what the disaster of mass immigration has caused to this country. Okay. And then I would say, well, I'm of Irish-Italian descent. And I think my daughter did some DNA testing and genealogy and discovered that we weren't really very English at all. But because I was born in leafy Hertfordshire and I've always been brought up in England, I consider myself to be English as well as British. And I think that's where the confusion came in. And again, this is not your fault.

15:49But it was also in the context of some figures on the right questioning, for instance, well, at one point, I think the Englishness stroke Britishness of our own king. but also as we discussed it, let's take somebody not least in the aftermath of the World Cup like Jude Bellingham. You know, black mother, white father from the Birmingham area, plays in an England shirt. And there was some questioning his Englishness or even perhaps the Englishness of somebody like Bokoya Osaka, who clearly doesn't have an English name. But if he plays with three lions on his shirt, he's English. Yeah, I mean, I don't think there's any contradiction.

16:25People who are born in England should be fully eligible to play for the England team and support our England team. I mean, I would be eligible if I was any good at football. Little detail there. So I should be able to play. Playing for a football, a national football team isn't a sign of your ethnicity. Erling Haaland was born in England and he chooses to play for Norway. So it's not necessarily the right metric. Everybody's free to describe themselves however they wish. I'm purely describing myself. my nationality and my ethnicity. And I do not seek to impose my view on other people. But I will always cheer our English football team.

17:02And I think they're brilliant. And I just want the best people on the pitch. And I don't care what the colour of their skin is, only that they're born in England, if that is the requiring requisite criteria. It's helpful that you say it's just a matter of opinion. It's not something you're trying to prescribe. Because I think if we were just having this conversation down the pub, that'd be one thing, but you're an elected representative hoping to be a minister in a future reform government. Therefore, I think when some people heard what you said, they were wondering, is this policy? Is this what reform...

17:32No, not at all. I'm talking about my personal... But you have to agree, I'm not of the English ethnicity. Would you agree with that? And would you say, I mean, English is actually born... I was born in England. I'm of Asian ethnicity. That's why I'm an ethnic minority. I don't think it's my place to judge or particularly care either way. If you say that, then fine. But equally, I do feel quite strongly that I have black English friends who feel they are English and I feel they're English too. They're entitled to do that. But do you agree that we are of different ethnicity, Tim? Yes, very probably.

18:08Yes. But now, come on, ethnicity is a little more complicated than genetics though, isn't it? I mean, there's an element of culture and tradition, etc. We are, I think a lot of foreigners would meet the two of us and they might think we look different, but they would say they're very similar in terms of personality and culture. Of course. Absolutely. And that is an English personality and culture. I would say I'm British. British, you know, you might say English. I think they can be interchangeable. But you're not quite British because you're not Scottish or Welsh. I think there's something very distinctly English.

18:40But I have a British passport. I don't think we'd find a Suella Braverman in Scotland or Wales. Despite the name, actually, to be fair. Well, you say that, Tim, but I've got a British passport. I'm a member of the UK Parliament. As I say, representing an English seat. Yeah, but I could have been elected in another part of the UK as well. So, I mean, it's whether people want to conflate English and British, I think, in that sense. And if you want to split hairs, you can. And if you don't, you don't have to. And I'm not imposing that view on anybody. But I think you have to agree, Tim, that we are of different ethnicity.

19:15and I'm an ethnic minority. I disagree with those who want to try and pretend genetics don't exist. I think that's silly. They do exist. But I think it is part of a mix. And also, I don't care. But nonetheless, it has come up. I agree. I think the labels are actually a distraction. That's why I mentioned the deeper problem. The disaster of mass immigration has meant that we actually have had over the recent years an influx of people from other parts of the world who are actually technically British citizens. They can come here, work in a low wage job for quite a short period of time, and then they can apply to call themselves British.

19:53And it's totally devalued the notion of British citizenship compared to other countries where you have to spend quite a long time, contribute a significant amount to the economy before you're even considered to be Singaporean or Japanese. And I think in this country, we have completely devalued it. And as a result, we actually have a real loss of identity and a crisis of patriotism. I was just looking today, there's a school in Manchester, and you can see it in our schools, where the children are all in line and they're singing the national anthem, except they're singing the Sudanese national anthem, not the British national anthem.

20:29And I think that is reflective of what's going wrong in our country. We're not teaching our children about patriotism. We're not teaching them to be proud of British history, British culture, our British flag. And instead, because of the dogma of multiculturalism and the disaster of mass immigration, we have completely devalued what it is to be British and what it is to be patriotic in our schools and in broader society. But if we had a left-wing person on this show, and it's always the way that because I ask the question, people assume this is what I think, but I'm going to ask it anyway. They would say, you're not helping integration by saying ethnicity is a distinct thing.

21:07See, in their minds, Englishness is fungible. It's something you can just contract into and out of as well. It's a matter of choice and identity. And by keeping it something which is not tagged to ethnicity, it is easier to integrate people into it. And they would say that by you saying, I am not English, English is a distinct ethnicity, you're the one who's actually making it harder for people to integrate into this country by making them conscious of their skin colour and their racial background. Well, I'd say two things about that. I think if you're going to deny different racial groups, then you've really been taken over by multiculturalism.

21:44There are different ethnicities in the world and in this country. And sometimes they are relevant to issues. Take the grooming gangs. I talk about that in my book. You know, the grooming gangs were racialized crimes. The perpetrators in those rape grooming gangs were described in the official reports as being of Pakistani Muslim or Asian heritage. Some of them were born in England. They were targeting white English vulnerable girls. Nowhere were those men described as English. Those were racialized crimes. Race was a factor in the perpetration of those crimes and subsequently in the cover-up because the police and the social workers and politicians, which I name in this book, didn't want to deal with it because they didn't want to look racist.

22:30So we have to acknowledge racism because there's huge injustice and harm going on because of race. We have to look at, you know, we've got invidious things like the race action plans in policing right now, which actively direct the police to treat white people more harshly than non-white people. That's awful and racist. And it has become so distorted. The sense of fairness, the sense of equality before the law, the sense of colourblind policing. I want a world which is defined by meritocracy and character and talent, not by the colour of your skin. I want schools where our children are taught that the country that they're living in is a great country.

23:13Yes, there were things which were bad, but Churchill was a great hero Britain and brought great things to the world that Shakespeare and Orwell were brilliant writers. I want them to feel proud of this flag and unite under an inspiring vision of Britishness. That's what we should be teaching in our schools and in our universities. Currently, we're not. There is a crisis of patriotism in our schools and in broader society. And that's why, you know, one of our policies is if I'm if I'm honoured to be Reform's education secretary, It will be every school needs to fly the British flag. Every school needs to sing the national anthem.

23:48We're going to roll out a balanced patriotic curriculum. We will teach the good about British Empire. We will also teach the bad, but we will not make it one-sided and ideologically driven. That's quite an American model, isn't it? I mean, if I think of standing up and... A bit of melting pot. Yes, slightly. Well, yes, you're right. Particularly educationally. Go to other countries. They don't hesitate to fly their flag. America's one good example. I was in India a few years ago. Their flag was festooned, a national highway. We were driving on a kind of A route and it was festooned with the Indian national flag.

24:23And I asked my chaperone, oh, is there a national festival going on? Is there some big thing going on? No, we just love our flag. We think India is great and we just want to wave it as much as we can. In this country, you can get arrested for wanting to fly the flag. I met a young girl last year who came to see me in Parliament. Her school had run a culture day, a culture day in school. And every child was encouraged to come to school in their dress of their heritage. And this girl decided to wear a dress with the Union Jack emblazoned on it. And she was asked to leave the celebration at school.

25:05And that wasn't appropriate. and I found out about it. I invited her to Parliament and she wore her lovely dress in Parliament and she gave her speech about what she loves about British culture to a few MPs in Parliament. But that's an example of how we've become ashamed of flying our flag. And it's not just a superficial, trivial thing about our flag. It has more worrying consequences. No wonder a decreasing portion of our young people are saying that they would choose to fight for this country if we were under attack. The numbers are falling. There's an increasing number of our young people who believe that Britain is a racist country.

25:42This is awful for the survival of our country as a whole. If our young people don't even believe in our country, if they don't even love our country, the future is pretty bleak. And we need to turn, we need to reverse that. On colourblind policing, you've been quite outspoken about the handling or mishandling, I should put it, of Henry Novak's murder. is it the case that still no one has really taken any vicarious responsibility for what happened to this young lad? Yes, yes, you're absolutely right Camilla and it's a tragedy. It was a horrific murder that took place last year and we all are fully aware of that body cam footage and there's more reports coming out following the family's very brave testimony on TV recently about what they were told by the police, what they weren't told by the police, what the IOPC, that's a police watchdog, seems to be indicating.

26:37And it has been a scandal and there's been an injustice that that young man was accused falsely of racism by his murderer and the police didn't hesitate to believe his murderer over him when he said, I've been stabbed and I can't breathe. And that policeman said, I don't think you have, mate. Those words will ring out, I think, for a long time as a symbol of broken policing. And to date, yes, you're right. The chief constable has admitted failings, but has not gone from his post. I think he should. Chief Constable Alexis Boone and the Police and Crime Commissioner, Conservative Police and Crime Commissioner Donna Jones, instituted a race action plan in her police force, put her frontline officers through thousands of hours of unconscious bias training, taught them how to be race allies.

27:28You know, all the woke, you know, virtue signalling rubbish that has infected policing was championed by this Conservative Police and Crime Commissioner Donna Jones. And neither of them have taken any responsibility for the poor handling at the scene of that crime in December of last year. And that's why I'm calling on them to resign. I mean, all points taken, I think there was a moment where, God love him, James O 'Brien on LBC in the way only he can, was questioning the wisdom of this and saying, are ethnic minorities like you seriously suggesting that you're given preferential treatment by the police than, say, white people?

28:11I mean, what's the answer to that? Well, it's in black and white in the race action plans that says in terms that if there is an accusation of racism from a non-white person, that has to be treated extremely seriously. There shouldn't really be a moment of questioning it. And, you know, every police officer's worst nightmare is to be accused of racism. And so they go, you know, to extreme lengths to be, you know, unfair. It's unfair policing. It's not fearless policing. It's not colourblind policing. So they treat white people more harshly than non-white people. And that is written in terms in those race action plans.

28:48And in your criticism there, this is something that Tim and I have been discussing all week. You know, there's criticism of the Conservative Police and Crime Commissioner. OK, fair enough. I mean, I don't think it would matter what political hue they were, to be honest. And then earlier, you obviously implicitly criticised James Cleverley because of him opening up talks with the Chagos while he was in position. So we obviously do have this narrative, this dialogue from the former Conservatives who are now reformers, constantly criticising the Tories. And Tim and I are sort of questioning in this bizarre environment.

29:22Tim will go on question time tonight where he'll be regarded as the sort of resident racist stroke righty because the audience will be left wing heavy, despite the protestations of the BBC that everything is balanced. I have been warned that it's a particularly young audience, which stacks things even more against me. It's Liverpool. It's Liverpool. Good luck with that. And then, of course, on X, the tables are turned because Tim has, for instance, called out, God forbid, the racists supporting perhaps your party or even Restore. He's now being recategorised by some as some kind of left wing liberal wetty, which obviously we know not to be true.

30:02And so what we've been debating all week is, is any of this sort of strange circular firing squad within right wing circles actually very useful with everything that Labour is doing and all the criticisms that you're making of government policy right now? Why doesn't the right, yourself included, just focus all of your attention on calling out Labour rather than having this internal fight on the right between Tories and reform and reform and restore and all the rest of it? isn't it just completely tiresome and a total waste of time? Well, you're basically asking for an end to political debate.

30:40I mean, that's what political parties do. And I would say I opened this show by saying that crippling labour taxes and net zero costs are punishing our business people. So I think that this government is failing our British people massively, whether it's on the economy and taxes and energy costs or failing in our schools. But we cannot let the last government off the hook, I'm afraid. This is why I left the Conservative Party. A lot of the problems that we are grappling with today were caused by many people leading the Conservative Party today, including Kemi Baden-Ok. So they may want to, you know, they are asking for your support and they are asking for the British people to vote for them.

31:23I am simply going to keep telling the truth about what I saw. That's why I've written this book within the Conservative Party over the last decade. You know, I can see a pattern of lies and deceit. There's no other way of describing it. Making big promises publicly, but privately, completely breaching those promises and having no intention of keeping them, whether it's on immigration. Kemi Badenok was lobbying publicly to increase the number of foreign students, while I was the one who instituted the measures to actually cut them. You know, the last Conservative Party didn't want to leave the European Convention on Human Rights to stop the boats.

32:02I was the one who said we had to. She didn't want to ban the hate marches because anti-Semitism was out of control. Now she says she's a big supporter of that policy. I do think we need to, I'm going, you know, I'm going to call out the emperor when they're not wearing any clothes. And if that makes me unpopular in certain circles, I don't care. I'm going to tell the truth. And, you know, I'm going to be with a party that I feel is defined for telling the truth. Despite the backlash, despite how uncomfortable sometimes those truths are. You know, Nigel Farage deserves a huge amount of respect for being very consistent on what he's been telling the country about out of control immigration for decades.

32:43And the mainstream media has wanted to cancel him. The establishment parties have wanted to pull him down. He's been called all sorts of names over the years. But every time he gets back up and he says the EU is undermining our democracy. Immigration is at breaking point. We need to stop the invasion. You know, he will say how it is. And that's why I joined reform, because the Conservative Party is much more interested in, you know, not offending polite society, not being excluded from the dinner party circles. And that's not how we're going to change the country. We are in deep, deep crises in this country.

33:22And these are profound problems. We are broke. people are struggling to keep their heads above water. Immigration is out of control. We've got massive security threats. Our schools are becoming more interested in left-wing campaigning than actually teaching our kids to get jobs and read and write. And reversing this requires brutal honesty, even if that is going to shake up a few circles and make you unpopular. But if we don't do that, if we don't confront these really difficult issues with brutal honesty, there's no chance of fixing them. And that's why I'm incredibly grateful that reform exists.

34:05What's it like being told by a white man that you, a woman of colour, are a massive racist? Stay with us for part two of Suella Braverman Unleashed.

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36:11The polling, unfortunately, is reflecting a real problem for the right, which is that you're all eating each other's lunch. So while you largely agree with the solutions to some of the problems the country faces, because you are divided between you all, you are incubating the prospect of either four more years of Labour, because let's be honest, all of your criticism of the Tories is an absolute gift to Andy Burnham, or something potentially even worse, which would be a progressive alliance of Labour, the Lib Dems, the Greens. I don't know. Well, current polling suggests that. But so, yeah, and what I think about that is, I think the next general election will be the most consequential of my lifetime.

36:54And I think the choice will be very, very stark. It will either be five more years of socialism, either bold red or some kind of rainbow coalition of madness, which will mean higher taxes, more poverty for hardworking Brits, more immigration, less security. And, you know, we'll become a third world country, basically, if we have five more years of this. Or we can stop labour. And the only vehicle that can begin the recovery on our economy, on immigration, on our law enforcement and our security is reform. And you might look at polling here and there, but I'm looking at election results. We won those local elections fairly and squarely.

37:38We've gone from zero to the main opposition in Wales. We are doing extremely competitively in Scotland. The North and the Midlands, you know, reform is polling incredibly, has won, not just polling, has won councils and, you know, support in those areas. Kent, Suffolk, Norfolk, Essex. You know, we are on track and we've been proving that at the ballot box. You're in that place. But, well, no, not according to the last elections. According to those local elections, we won those elections. And that's the last time. I don't really, polling doesn't really, polling is here and there and there's a lot of questions about polling.

38:19It's important, isn't it? Because last summer you were in a much, much better position because your polling number began with a three. All of the recent polling suggests you're in third place. So you can't really say with credibility the only way to stop Labour is through us because you're behind the Conservatives. But that's polling and we know that polls can be wrong. And I would say the poll that I trust the most is actual tangible election results. And the last set of election results were earlier this year, very recent. And those suggest that we are the only party that is viable to stop the left.

38:57And so to those people who are still, you know, nostalgic about the Conservatives, they might like Kemi's speeches or they, you know, they can't leave the Conservatives. I would say to them that they really need to focus their minds because if they want to stop Labour, it has to be reform. And mathematically, that is true as well. The Conservative Party just cannot win because, as I said, they can't win. Well, as I said, people in the right, people on the right. I'm just listening. People on the right, to those people who are still hankering off the Conservatives, I'm telling them and you or whoever, the Conservatives can't win.

39:34They cannot win in all those parts of the country that I just set out. The Conservatives are not going to win. And they haven't won. I'm not talking about what polls say. I'm talking about election results. I 100 % agree with you that right now there is no way the Conservatives can win the Red Wall. But I also think that there's no way right now reform can win the Blue Wall. and I think that is the problem. So righties listening and watching this are tearing out their hair going, oh my God, neither side can win. One side says, for us to win, you need to come with us and the other side goes, for us to win, you need to come with us and some people just don't want to go with you.

40:10Come with me if you want to live. Some people don't want to go with the Tories and meanwhile, Andy Burnham is there, you know, potentially tabling legislation for us to find the end of the sellotape. The other problem is that I... Banning smoky bacon crisps? What? Is that the recent one? This is an outrage. I think I heard it. I don't want to get in trouble with Andy Burnham, but I think the most recent idea and policy, profound policy change to fix the country is to ban smoky bacon crisps. Angela Eagles just lost her head over it. Anyway, but you see my point. Well, I don't see your point. I'm just trying to channel some frustration from the right of like, please.

40:46But the thing is, I would say to those people who are still, as I said, you know, dreaming about a conservative arrival, how can they trust a party that betrayed them so awfully on immigration but laurice johnson kemi badenot rishi sunak all these people who said that they wanted to cut immigration yeah and they did not and it's causing huge structural problems today i cannot trust them again and to suggest a pact or a deal which is what i think you're suggesting that would be like the reform party doing a deal with the Lib Dems. Right. And I'm not going near any Lib Dem party. It might be better than Britain becoming a third world country there.

41:27Mightn't it? I can't do a deal with the Lib Dems who can't be trusted. Is that partly because, you've already said this, but I want to tease it out more of your experience of working with these people, because the Tories will always say we're under new management. Kemi is very clearly different from the past. Thinking about what's in your book, from your experience of dealing with Kemi, do you believe that she is the conservative that she presents herself as today? No, she's part of the same old family of lying and untrustworthy conservatives who are very good at giving speeches, but very poor on actual delivery.

42:04And you can see that by her actions. This is not just what I'm saying. She opposed leaving the ECHR until she realized it was quite a sensible policy and decided to change her mind miraculously. But when she had the opportunity and when it would have made a difference, she was implacably opposed to leaving the ECHR. She was lobbying for more student visas in Parliament on the record with no shame. I'm the one who instituted the measures to actually cut student visas. She didn't want to ban the hate marches. She didn't think that it was important to deal with grooming. She's just recently promoted a convicted anti-Semite in her party.

42:39I mean, there are countless examples of how she's actually, you know, So David Cameron, betrayal on Brexit negotiation. Theresa May, betrayal on the Brexit deal. Boris Johnson, betrayal on immigration. Rishi Sunak, betrayal on ECHR on the boats. Kemi Badenok, the face might be different, but they're all the same family. And she's incredibly connected still to all of those elders in the Conservative Party. Michael Gove is incredibly close to her management. David Cameron prepares her for PMQs. Everybody in that shadow cabinet, pretty much all of them voted for Remain. Many of them are still opposed to leaving the ETHR.

43:15She's still selecting candidates to run at the next general election who are big opponents to leaving the ETHR. Why didn't you leave sooner then? That's a great question. Well, I mean, it was a very difficult decision for me to come to because I was really grappling with the tension of having lost complete faith in the National Conservative Party for quite some time. I was politically homeless, but having a lot of strong relationships with people on the ground in the Conservative Party, particularly in Fairham and Waterlooville. And that was a big tension for me. But at the end of the day, and I wanted to give Kemi some time to see if the party would change properly.

43:56And at a certain point, it was apparent to me that the party hasn't changed. It is still that Lib Dem party of people who don't really want to leave. Half of the Tory MPs do not want to leave the ECHR, who don't think that cutting immigration is the right thing to do. They think that more immigration is actually good for the economy, who don't think that grooming gangs are a big problem, who don't think that the hate march is a problem on many issues, who are still net zero zealots, who still think that trans women are women. Penny Mordaunt, Tory minister. She was famous, really, for her. She will go down in history as being the Tory minister who stood up the dispatch box and said, trans women are women.

44:38She's just been approved to be a candidate for Kemi's party. So the party hasn't changed. And there comes a point where you think, right, I'm not going to give it any more time. I've been patient enough. And actually, I've got to put country first and over those relationships that have bound me to the party. And I wish I'd done it earlier. I should have done it earlier. But I'm very glad that I found the courage to do it. It's a massive thing to do as a politician. and I'm very grateful that reform exists because for the first time in a very long time, I'm with people where there is political coherence.

45:17That's the problem with the Conservative Party. This is why it hasn't changed, as I said out in my book. It's made up of two warring tribes. There's the right-wingers, the ERG, the Brexiteers, and there's the left-wingers. I call them the Bowdoin Tories. I don't know if Bowdoin are going to get upset for that. One of our main advertisers, Can we say how much we love their clothing? But very well dressed, very bien pantsant. They love international law. They would never want to leave the USHR. They think that talking about immigration is racist and they want to be kind. The Be Kind Brigade is in the Conservative Party.

45:56And these two tribes are at war. You don't want to be nasty, though, do you? What do you mean? No, of course you don't want to be nasty. I mean, that was another feature Tim made the point with Trump's defeat. Was that actually calling out that nastiness doesn't play well at the ballot box in the end? Yeah, I agree that. But honesty, you know, people, you owe people honesty. And I think what happens is sometimes delivering honest messages can be manipulated as being nasty. But actually, all you're doing is telling the truth. I really felt that in the Conservative Party. When I called it an invasion as Home Secretary, my Tory cabinet colleagues were apoplectic.

46:34They were more interested in the tone. When I said they were hate marches, people like Kemi Badenak said, well, the tone is awful. and three years on we've got Jews being murdered on the streets of Britain because of out of control anti-Semitism and weak policing and so you know yes we don't want to be nasty we want to be positive and inspiring and talk about the vision of Britain that we stand for but there are so many problems there are so many difficult problems in this country and we can't gloss over those and And sometimes brutal honesty is required. And again, that's where reform, there is that political coherence.

47:11It's not made up of two warring families. And you know who your leader is. There's no doubt about who your leader is. Correct. I mean, I do think some of these conversations that we have, the Tory party has the advantage that it's a historic institution. And so it exerts a kind of a gravitational pull on things. And sometimes when we talk to reform people, you know, and we say, will you do a deal? Maybe they feel there is a presumption of will you come back is what that means. But it's good to talk to you because it emphasizes the point that for many reform people, you've burnt your boats. You've done.

47:45You've moved on. I do not want to go back. And your perspective is they should join us, not the other way around. You know, I speak to loads. I go around the country. I meet a lot of reform supporters and councillors. What I'm really struck by is the number of people I've met from all over the countries, all sorts of backgrounds who have joined reform having previously never voted. Actually, it's not just former Tories, but I meet a lot of people who felt I just thought it would make no difference. Tories and Labour, they're the same thing. I've never I've not voted for the last 10 years. But you know what?

48:18That Nigel, he speaks to me and I've realised that I can't just sit at home and moan at the TV. I've got to do something and I'm actually going to stand for council. And I'm a bit daunted by it because I've never done anything like this before. But I've realised that if I have to save my country, if I want to save my country, I've got to do something about myself. I've heard that kind of message thousands of times from people who join reform. And there's a lot of people like that who've previously been very disenfranchised, who felt politicians are people in suits on TV who say things that have no impact on their lives.

48:54But for the first time in decades, there's suddenly a party that's willing to disrupt the status quo, that's willing to smash a few eggshells and, you know, challenge some sacred cows and say, no, you know, the dogma of multiculturalism is destroying this country. No, net zero tariffs are crippling our businesses. All these kind of things which have not really been said so before in very bold and brave terms. And I think for the first time, that's been a really refreshing and inspiring message for a lot of people. Talking about boldness and bravery, should Shabana Mahmood have stepped down? Should she have resigned when the cabinet rolled her over on indefinite leave to remain?

49:37Yes. Yes, absolutely. She will now go down as another Home Secretary who's failed to stop the immigration crisis despite tough messages. To be fair, though, did you stop the immigration crisis? No, as I said, I've been honest. I mean, I apologise. I was the first Conservative MP to apologise for the British people. Can any Home Secretary stop the immigration crisis? The reality is that no Home Secretary can act unilaterally. And that's why I couldn't stop the boats. So I went in to the Home Office in the autumn of 2022. By that point, the Boris wave was in full flow. June 2022, the government had already, under Boris, Rishi and Priti, had already issued in excess of a million work and study visas.

50:24I went in with a plan and I spoke to Liz and then I spoke to Rishi and I said, we've got time. If you give me the green light, I can institute these changes. We can raise the salary threshold where previously they lowered it. We can restrict the number of dependents where previously they increased the number of dependents. We can scrap one of the visa routes where previously they opened new graduate visa routes. We don't need to go through the House of Lords. We don't need to worry about the ECHR or lefty lawyers. we're outside the European Union we've got the power to do this give me your approval and I was blocked and it wasn't granted and so the reality of...

51:03Including by Liz Truss Well I fell out with Liz Truss on this is in the book and we didn't agree and she didn't really want to, by that point she was very scared of the OBR and the OBR believes almost religiously that more immigration into the country is good for the economy And so all of the cabinet was terrified of upsetting the OBR. And so she wanted me to not commit to cutting immigration after the mini budget debacle. Rishi Sunak was a bit more, you know, Liz didn't lie, to be fair to her, but Rishi lied. You know, he secured my support to be prime minister by promising me that he would support my plans to cut visas.

51:47And then it sadly became clear that he had no intention of keeping that promise. Despite that, I managed to extricate the first ever changes in May 2023, which started the reversal of the Boris wave. And up until then, every Home Secretary had been making changes to increase immigration. May 2023 marks the first time that a Home Secretary institutes changes to reduce immigration. We can see the effects now. But no, Shibana Mahmood, in some ways I actually feel for her because she's a Home Secretary who wanted to cut immigration. She's been blocked by her cabinet colleagues. That's basically what happens to me.

52:24There's a little parallel there, isn't there? Yeah, it's a recurrent theme. I have one final question, which I've been dying to ask you ever since I saw you on Question Time. I suppose it's in my mind because I'm going on myself. I felt throughout this row about English identity that it's only come up because people have asked you about it and you've given an honest answer. And there might be one that everyone agrees with, but I don't think you've got any agenda beyond that. But when you're on that panel and you finish talking, Ali Dougmore, who is perhaps the whitest man alive, and he will now reveal he's half Filipino or something, maybe like a fool, but he's a very, very, very white man, said that your argument opened the door to racism.

53:03How does it feel as a person of colour, speaking the truth as you see it on the basis of your philosophy and biography, how does it feel being accused of stirring up racism by a very, very white man? Surreal, to put it politely. I mean, I've experienced racism. The racism I've experienced has been generally from the left, I would say. My father, talk about it in the book, he experienced racism when he first came here. And I know what racism is. And I bore racism. And so to be called a racist just for describing my own ethnicity is a shocking state of affairs to the kind of political debate that we've got to.

53:51Because basically what that reflects is that whenever someone disagrees with a left winger, that left winger calls them racist. And I had it with Brexit. I had it with standing as a Conservative Party. I had it as Home Secretary. They just go to that lowest common denominator and they call you a racist and they are trying to bully you. That's what they're trying to do. They're trying to silence you because no one wants to be called a racist. and when it's for flying our flag, celebrating our history, celebrating our culture, saying that immigration is too high, none of that is racist and yet the left will constantly beat people with a stick and call you racist because they want to shut us down.

54:32And actually I've come out of that more resolute because people like Olly Dougmore and the lefties, and I'm afraid Kemi Badenock, she jumped on the bandwagon. well she jumped on the bandwagon in her speech and she took the left-wing approach completely unnecessarily unforced I think she was questioning whether it was right to suggest that her mixed-race children weren't English well I haven't done that and no one has done that so she took the side of the lefties when it's convenient for her and I'm not going to be bullied I'm not going to be bullied into silence I'm not going to stop talking about the disaster of mass immigration I'm not going to be stopped from celebrating our national culture and standing up for patriotic Brits.

55:17We need more people like that, people who are brave enough to face this disgusting smear of racism. And they can call me all sorts of names that they want to. They're not going to shut me up. So, thank you very much indeed for joining us. Thank you.

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57:34Thank you.