The Sunday Showdown: Camilla takes on Blair’s ‘fixer’

0:02The Telegraph.

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1:25What happens when a Telegraph journalist on the right, me, has a cuppa with Tony Blair's fixer, John McTernan? We have a great debate about what makes someone far-right, mass immigration and why Ed Miliband should be praised for his policies and his achievements. Which he absolutely shouldn't be, by the way. Welcome to The Daily Tea with me, Camilla Tominey. And me, John McTernan.

1:58John McTernan, lovely to see you in the studio. I'm going to call you one of Tony Blair's besties, if you don't mind. What's Tony up to? He keeps on sticking his oar in, doesn't he? I mean, 5 ,000 words. Come on, Tony. They're really well argued, really well written, really provocative, and everyone's talking about them. True. That's the point of being a think tank. Why be a think tank? Which is what Tony Blair Institute is and produce reports that no one talks about and no one reads. He's now basically trashing Labour's entire policy platform before the UK's gaze. It's not useful to Starmer this, is it?

2:35Well, let's be clear. Keir Starmer's on borrowed time. The public made clear what they wanted on May the 7th, and Andy Burnham standing in the make-it-feel by-election, being let to stand by the Labour Party. Well, there's not much choice. It's a signal the Labour Party understands that they need to make a change at the top. And what Tony's done, I think very helpfully, is said, you know Andy Burnham? He was an excellent cabinet minister. Also, you know one thing about him? His policy of re-industrialising the North? I back that fully. The only policy he actually attacks that's being discussed around the potential leadership race is he attacked Wes Streeting's policy.

3:13So it's quite interesting. In my reading of it, Tony Blair, TB, backs AB. Oh, that's how you're seeing it. Because there's some warm words about Streeting, but you think this is an endorsement of Burnham. Well, look at the attack on Wes's specific policy on taxation corporate, Cavaliers tax. He says basically this has been suggested before and rejected many times for good reason, equating CGT with income tax. There's a technical reason for it, which is basically you don't make any increase in tax revenue in five years, and if you don't make it in five years, the OBR won't score it, so therefore why make the change?

3:52But in reality, Tony loves the Labour Party. He's stuck with the Labour Party through the Corbyn years. He's just trashed it. He's trashing it. No, he loves the Labour Party. He's openly criticising Starmer and everything he's come out with in the last two years. So, Keir Starmer has halved the Labour Party's support in two years. So, Tony Blair's in line with public opinion there, isn't he? I mean, do you kick a man while he's down like this, John? Where I come from in Scotland, you kick a man until he stays down. Do you? John, I'm never going to get in a fight with you. Crumbs. But I'm just saying, you know, at the end of the day, by reminding the public of all that Labour has done wrong and continues to do wrong, he might actually be harming your party's chances in Makerfield.

4:34So I don't think so, because in Makerfield, the contest there is actually between Andy Burnham and Reform. And Reform have managed to, it's hard to imagine, but they've managed to field a candidate who just falls over every time, continuously falls over his social media trail. Well, is anyone that interested in his social media trail? They just see a plumber who had a job outside politics, unlike Andy Burnham. Yes, he might have obnoxious views on, for instance, whether women can drive properly or navigate or indeed referee football matches. Burnham himself has got a rather toxic legacy of supporting the idea that women can have penises.

5:10So, I mean, nobody's perfect on the whole what is a woman thing. I do think the issue in a by-election is do you want people to stand up for you who you'll be proud of or do you want people who you'll be slightly embarrassed by? Has Andy Burnham stood up for women historically? He wanted blokes with full beards and no gender identification certificate to just waltz into female changing rooms. He was perfectly happy with that, John. I do think your obsession with the trans issue is strange, given that's not an issue in the by-election. Well, he made it an issue because he backtracked on it at the weekend saying, actually, we should all support the Supreme Court judgment because I'm a changed man.

5:49At least we all know what a man and woman is, Andy. So I wonder what kind of politician would say, do you know what? The Supreme Court made a judgment and I've got some detailed notes I want to give the Supreme Court back. If you accept our constitution, which is a great constitution, then in the end, the Supreme Court's decision is our Supreme Court's decision. I'm just upset that somebody who's wanting to be the next prime minister needs the Supreme Court to tell him that it wasn't a great idea to allow men with no gender recognition certificate at all, no doctor's certification to walk into a female-only space and say, I can do what I like in here.

6:25He needed to be reminded of that by a Supreme Court ruling. He could have been reminded of it by the Cass report. I'm just pointing that out. You think that Blair is backing Burnham, so what does that mean for streeting? I'm saying if you read the whole thing, it's a love letter to the Labour Party and a love letter to Great Britain. get the party better in government, get Britain better. With friends like this, who needs enemies, John? It's a love letter. I think if I had received this from an ex-lover, I'd be very upset. I'm not sure Starmer's going to be thanking him for this, is he? No, but you have to make your own weather when you're Prime Minister.

7:05Yes. And the thing about Tony is he can still, on policies, make the weather. Yes, he can. And there'll be many righties that agree with him, which is presumably the point of the whole thing, this idea of let's fight this from the centre, let's fight this from a sensible position of trying to sweep up the silent majority of this country? If I were advising the Tory party leadership, I would say there is no space on the far-right politics. That's occupied by reform and it's contested. John, do you think reform really is far-right? Yeah, reform are far-right. Far-right? It's a far-right policy. What justification?

7:42I'll tell you, if you want to forcibly detain and then forcibly deport two million people still living, currently living in Britain, then you are a far right party. There's no other way to describe. Hang on a minute. Forcible deportation of two million people is a far right policy. There's nothing else. Do you think that illegal immigrants into this country should be forcibly removed? There aren't two million illegal immigrants. The reform policy is to spend£100 billion forcibly detaining in camps and then forcibly deporting 2 million people in the first five. Illegally here? No, 2 million people who are here.

8:19But they're saying they're illegal. No, they're not. Because I'm just remembering Liam Byrne, who was your old immigration minister, using this term to describe... They're not saying 2 million people are illegal. Hang on a minute. Wasn't it Liam Byrne, forgive me, who invented the term hostile environment for illegal immigrants? Yes, it was. and then you disowned it because you didn't think it was cuddly enough. If you talk about this centrist position, most Brits who would agree with Tony Blair that they'd prefer cheap energy to clean energy, who agree with Tony Blair that the welfare bill is too...

8:50Clean energy is cheap energy. I'm just quoting the former Prime Minister. But clean energy is cheap energy. He's saying we should prioritise cheap over clean. There is no cheap fossil fuel, dirty energy anywhere in the world. Forgive me. I mean, I know he's the people's. I know Blair is the people's politician. Let me just be the people's journalist. I'm telling you now, John, that most sensible people in the UK don't think the reform of far right and don't think that there's anything wrong with removing forcibly illegal immigrants in this country. They consider them to be criminals because they've come here illegally.

9:27They think far right are the Nazis. I'm not sure they think that Nigel Farage is one. Do you accept that, John? To me, Nazis are Nazis. Right. Reform is a far-right party because it wants to forcibly deport two million people who have got ILR. So what's Restore? What is Restore then and what is Tommy Robinson? Look, I think, well, Tom Robinson is a fascist and Restore are fascist adjacent. Doesn't fascism require a military rising up against the elected government of today? Do you think that Tommy Robinson is leading a militia to overthrow democratic rule in this country? Look, I think Robinson is a fascist and I think Restore are...

10:12I think you're far too intelligent to be throwing around these terms. You're far too intelligent to be defending far-right ideology or fascist ideology. I am not. I'm absolutely not. I'm just questioning your terminology about Robinson, Restore and Reform. I'm in politics. I'm allowed to say what I want. Okay, so how would you have regarded Corbynistas? Are they far left fascists? No, they're the far left. Why aren't they fascists? Why aren't the Greens, who have got a load of balmy ideas about wealth taxes and Palestine and transgenderism and all these other bizarre, what Blair would describe as radical but not sensible ideas, why aren't they fascists?

10:53Why aren't they eco-fascists? Well, because the Greens now are the democratically elected leaders. of a whole load of cancers across the country and they're elected in strong force in Scotland, in London, in Wales, in Deval government. The issue around Tommy Robinson is the man, like Zach Polanski, doesn't campaign his own born name. True. Should we start calling Polanski formerly known as David Paulden as we do Tommy Robinson, formerly known as Yaxley Lennon? Saka's name has changed his name and has never been convicted as far as I know. No. But, oh, what, do we only say Yaxley-Lenin because he was once a convict?

11:38Well, he's a very, very... I mean, I'm not defending him, John. I'm just saying that when you throw around terms like far-right and fascist about Nigel Farage, doesn't it then lessen the criticism of people further to the right of him? That's my only point. Because many reform voters won't think they're far-right. Do you think reform voters are far-right? I think that's a ludicrous question. Reform UK have a policy of detaining in camps two million people and forcibly deporting two million people who live in Britain. They've got indefinite leave to remain. They're legally here. They're working in the health service.

12:15They're working in small businesses. They're working in our communities. I get the point you're making. And so that is a far right policy. And that's my only position. So if, so you, but the ergo, if I can use that rather outdated phrase, it's more one that Jacob would use. But anyway, ergo, if you support reform. Quadate prop to hoc. Indeed. Tempus Fugit. If you support reform, you're therefore supporting the far right. Therefore, ergo, you are far right. The danger. Are you saying that reform voters are far right? That's what I'm getting to. No, I'm saying the danger. So one of reform's policies is far right.

12:50Therefore, they're fascists. No, you said... Should I do my typology? Oh, no, you said Robinson was a fascist. You don't think Farage is a fascist. Farage's a Democrat. Right, but he's a far-right Democrat. Right. And Zia Yusuf went on to social media to attack Robert Jenrick because Robert Jenrick was too soft on forcibly deporting people. Yes. How do you deport people if you don't deport them forcibly? No, no. But how do you think it's not far right to forcibly deport people who are legally living in Britain? Legally living in Britain. So do you think that's a far right concept? It's far right to see somebody who's legally living in the country and then just chuck them out.

13:34Is it far right to forcibly deport? Let me ask you this. It's done on the base of race. We know it's done on the base of race. It's about brown people, getting brown people out of the country. The home affairs spokesperson, Zia Yusuf, who is orchestrating this policy, is brown. So is he a far-right racist? He's far-right and he's definitely advocating this far-right policy. But is it wrong? Let me ask you a different... OK, so you're saying your objection to it is because some of these people are living here legally now. No, two million people who are living here legally are going to be chucked out.

14:03If you were going to forcibly deport illegal immigrants, would you consider that to be far-right? All migration policies have to have a process whereby you apply and you either succeed or you don't succeed. And if you don't succeed, then you have to leave the country. All right. It's forcibly okay if you haven't succeeded. If you don't leave the country on your own steam, then the state will assist you. And that's okay. But people who are here legally, with indefinite leave to remain, are now being told by Reform UK that two million of them will be put in camps. I get the point you're making. I just think we need to be very careful with terminology.

14:44If we can't use far right about detaining and deporting. Far right conjures up imagery of the BNP, sort of Nazis goose stepping. You know it does. That's why you use it. People use the word Nazis for Nazis and for the DMP. I've been described as a Nazi, would you believe, John? Have you ever been described as a Nazi? I think that's one of the few things I've never been accused of on Twitter. There's still time. OK, it's still time. Sorry, we went off on a little tangent there, but it's good to debate these things. It's a podcast. Who are you backing in this? Andy Burnham. Right. OK. And how long do you think Starmer will last?

15:23You're assuming Andy Burnham wins Makerfield. Is that a given, John? Yeah. No, it isn't. I think he wins it on the bounce. Does he? Boom, boom, boom. Does he? Because people in that area know him from growing up. They know him from the rugby league teams he supports. They know him from his kids being around there. They know him from where he currently lives. They also know him from taking the tram to Wigan. They know him from the things he's done. Taking the tram? No, originally there was only one tram line. I see. You mean actually extending the tram, not being on the tram. Fair enough. But they might...

15:59And all the infrastructure investments that have gone on... Some might resent him for using this seat as a stepping stone to Downing Street. Some might think, hang on a minute, Josh Simons only five minutes ago campaigned for Starmer to be Prime Minister. Now he's stepped aside because he was looking into the paths of journalists who were investigating Labour together, which was a nefarious and preposterous thing to do. And the good people of Makerfield just have to stand back and let Burnham use this as a CV-enhancing extension to his political career. What I think I love about your imagination is you think you're conjuring up a voter who's going, do you know what?

16:36I really like what Andy's done for Wigan. I really like what Andy's done for Greater Manchester. I really like what he's done for football fans standing up against the deep state and giving the rights to victims so that can extend to the Victor of the Horizon post office scandal. All the kind of people who've been at the wrong end of the power of the state. Andy's forced to change from outside parliament. He's forced to change. I really like the man. I like his policy, I like what he stands for. But the thing I'm not really sure about is if I vote for him, is that I vote for or against Keir Starmer?

17:04Because I really want to keep Keir Starmer. In part, the one thing I really care about Wigan, Wigan would be devastated if there was any threat to Keir Starmer. So I'm going to vote against Andy Burnham so I can make sure we keep Keir Starmer in office. Well, hang on a minute, John. That voter probably doesn't exist. Well, you know where that voter exists. In the Labour membership, John. because the polling of the Labour membership is like, it's curious. Last time I checked, when asked who would they like to be the next prime minister, 36 % said your guy, Andy Burnham. Shock horror, 36 % said Keir Starmer.

17:43The other candidates, including Streeting, Rainer and what have you, were all on single figures. So you've actually perfectly articulated the mind of the average Labour member without even knowing it. No, you know what you're saying. You're saying. I'm just quoting facts. You're saying, cheer up Keir, only one in three Labour supporters, Labour members, once you stay Prime Minister. That means you've got two out of three you could still win over. You could say the same about Burnham. Only one in three want Burnham. He's not even an MP yet. The point is, he's on the rise. He's on the rise. All right.

18:18And will Starmer still be Prime Minister, John, by Christmas? No. By the end of the summer? Probably. Why? Because of the time it takes to organise a leadership contest in the Labour Party. But you're saying if Burnham wins, so June the 18th, Burnham wins June the 19th, bye-bye Starmer. If Burnham wins, the clock is ticking for the current Prime Minister, and everybody in Number 10 knows that. Maybe then he can come back in a couple of years' time with his own think tank, a 5 ,000-word essay on what Andy Burnham's doing wrong. Maybe he could do a Cameron and come back in a couple of years as a foreign secretary, but he's going to spend some time on the naughty step.

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20:24John, I'm loving this because I did say when you came into the studio you were my favourite lefty. I do say that to every lefty I meet, with the exception of Owen Jones, obviously. Owen's quite sweet when you get to know him. Is he? I'm not sure. So Owen's issue is this, that in his own family, he is the right-wing renegade because mum and dad were in The Militant. How left-wing are these people? What do you mean Derek Hatton's lock? Yeah, Dirk's Hanlon. So for him, he's moved this incredible journey. Yeah. And for his family, it's like, why are you such a reformist? Yes. All right. Fair enough.

21:00On the subject of far right and fascism and everything, I had a very interesting debate last week with Mick Lynch, also of the left, also of your parish, John. He's a lovely guy. He's a good guy. And I also like my family. He was an Irish railway family. That's right. My family came over in the 1880s to Paddington and worked for GWR. and then they moved further into West London and stopped being in the railways. Oh, so you're Irish originally, not Scottish? Yeah. And his, I've got an Irish passport. Oh, you're such a Europhile then. Yeah. Mick lives in Paddington and that's because family moved to work on the railways then stayed around Paddington.

21:38Well, maybe you can square a circle. Mick might get on a lot about... Look, I got on with him really well. He's a lovely guy. We had a great, robust debate and I think we should have more kind of right versus left to try and challenge... just to have the arguments. I just think it's good to have the arguments. So me and Mick had this little ding-dong because obviously he's coming from the perspective of unions and we were talking about how to make life better for the workers of Britain. And I was obviously advocating from my right-wing point of view, you know, let's keep taxes down. Let's get as many people...

22:07Put on the neck of the workers. Let's expect the poor to digest paving slabs. No, John, that isn't mine. My philosophy is I'd like to give people the chance to catch fish rather than just throwing fish at them. That I want as many people to be employment as possible. I want work to be more advantageous to people than benefits. I think that parents in work beget children in work. I want people to earn. I want people to help to grow the economy. What is the party of work? The Labour party. Well, yeah. Well, you're also, unfortunately, like the Tory government before you, the party of tax. And I made a point to John, sorry, and I made a point to Mick that I'd like you to address because he then started pulling on the you're a racist and a bigot lever for me making the following suggestion.

22:53Did he think that mass migration into the UK since 1997 had depressed low-skilled workers' wages? No, it hasn't. There's no evidence at all. But how do you then explain... So how do you explain that phenomenon that occurred, which did actually... I remember going up to Grantham and speaking to Polish people there who were voting for Brexit because they feared they were going to be undercut by the Romanians. There's always, at least in labour, as in traditional labour, there's always been fears of British builders being undercut by, for instance, Eastern European workers, who in turn fear being undercut by other Eastern European workers.

23:37So are you saying this is just a perception? It's a myth. It's assisted by the tabloid papers, but it's a myth. There's no statistical evidence at all that there's any impact on pressure downwards on wages because of migration. And when you talk about British builders, you're actually talking about Irish builders, families like my family, like McLean's family. The core of the British building trade in the 50s and the 60s and the 70s and the 80s were Irish Catholics. And then what happened? In the mid-90s onwards, you get Polish Catholics. And I've always struggled to understand what the outrage on the right is about a country in which we've brought into our country hardworking white Catholics from Europe who filled out the Catholic churches, who contributed to their communities, contributed to their communities to get home, and have normally gone back to build better lives for themselves and their families.

24:31So the migration story during the European Union and since the European Union has been a really strong story for faith communities in the country. Probably the one that's not done that well is the Ankin Church. But the Church of England has deep set institutional weaknesses which are beyond immigration addressing. No. OK. So beyond that particular example, because we actually sort of happen to be talking about workers that, you're right, share a common religion, which you and I share. Funnily enough, I'm a Catholic, but a rather lapsed one. How about this as a problem? That's the biggest religion in the world, isn't it?

25:02I think so. Don't tell Tim Stanley, although he's well aware. The other problem with mass migration that has been cited then is its impact on youth employment. So, for instance, this phenomenon of more immigrants filling low-level, bottom-of-the-ladder jobs that could be filled by young people aged 18 to 24. We have seen this quite substantial spike in youth unemployment just in the last year. So I think the level was about 14%. Now it's up to 16%. It's not really something that Labour can blame on the Tories because it's occurred in the second half of their so far two-year administration. That's a problem.

25:44Look, it's a problem for everyone if they're not in work, if they're of working age. Work gives you a social identity. Work gives you a community identity. Work gives you pay, obviously. Work gives you access to other opportunities. The best way to get a job is to be in a job. Most people get on once you own one job, you don't stay in it. I mean, I always ask, you know, what's the first job most people did? I stacked shelves in a supermarket. Now, I'm really grateful for starting there, joined my first union there, still my union, ASDAW. But I wouldn't want to be in my 60s still working stacking shelves.

26:16I moved on to work in public relations, to work as a consultant. All of us need to start our career. And the issue for employment, there's two elements of it. And one of them is the first job you get, and I'll come back to that. And the other one is progression. How do you get progression? How do you move from your first job to your second job to your third job to your fourth job? How do you move from working in a small business to owning a small business, running a small business? And look, and I think in those areas, the government has to constantly be going back and thinking about what do we do to make this the most business-friendly place to start something, the most business-friendly place to grow something, the most business-friendly place to want to IPO here, all of these areas.

26:53And amongst the challenges we have, and I was talking to Ewan Blair, Tony Blair's son, about this. One of the big things is how do you, through the workforce, think of the challenges for workers in every decade, not just young workers. There's a big issue you raised and we don't talk about that. It's not just young workers who need to come to grips with AI. Actually, probably young workers are more skilled about using it. If you're in your mid-30s or in your mid-40s, you've still got decades ahead of work, you hope, but how can you become more productive by using AI? And I think it's becoming clear in some of the white collar areas that it takes out some like entry jobs, intern jobs but it actually means your research can be faster.

27:36It can't substitute but it can bring the material faster, summarise it then you can go into it and look at it. I actually need to dig deeper into that, read the actual source and I agree fully with Tony Blair on this. AI could transform the National Health Service. AI is part of two or three forces all technological which I think could transform I know of one local GP in my area who uses AI just to take notes on consultations I mean I don't want it to take over face to face appointments John it's parallel with the face to face but he reckons it saves him maybe a minute, minute and a half in each consultation but if you think during a day that adds up to one extra consultation because it just takes the notes And those kinds of little aids, because I think if you add AI, just say that to the health service, you don't lose jobs.

28:26You create new slots. Sure, but you need a huge amount of energy to power this AI revolution. We've got the Chancellor talking about us being a leading light in AI. Thank God Ed Miliband is building new nuclear power stations. Thank God Ed Miliband wants us to be able to buy from our local supermarkets solar panels we can plug in to reduce demand from the grid. Even Tony Blair, hang on a minute. The farsighted views of Ed Miliband. We need to stop and praise them at the moment. The farsighted views of Ed Miliband. Even Tony Blair is saying that there is a contradiction at play here with on one hand the left saying we're going to lead AI, we're going to build data centres, we're going to power a revolution and on the other hand Miliband saying that we're not going to be using North Sea oil and gas, ladies and gentlemen, we'll import it instead.

29:11The other thing about Ed Miliband's net zero-ism is the complete and utter dishonesty about how much it costs to transport this energy from foreign nations, how much it costs to import solar panels made possibly, can I say, by modern slavery in Xinjiang. It's such dishonesty. The public look at it and go, this is nonsense. We've now got Norway out-competing us with our own gas and oil. There's a complete lunacy to that, John. You must be able to see in the fog of haze, of glaze that you have for Miliband. So I suppose the thing to say about Norway, it's a country of five million people. Sovereign Wealth Fund worth more than a million pound per Norwegian right now.

30:03It's Sovereign Wealth Fund. On the back of oil and gas. It started in the mid-1990s. Right. If only we'd done that. No, if we'd started a sovereign wealth fund in the mid-1990s, that was after the point that the peak had well passed of North Sea Oil. And so actually they have the largest share of North Sea Oil and gas and they've got the largest share of still explorable and still exploitable. Now, they've used their wealth for many things, but one of the things they've done is they've gone to almost entire new cars, being electric vehicles, which is a policy I'd love to see in Britain. Yeah. Not enough charging points.

30:37No, I'd love to. Too expensive. And if they break down, you've got to pay 20 grand. So it's not really the working man's car, is it? It is the working man's car because I think this government should set up a public-private partnership to give everybody with a white van an electric van because it cuts the running costs of your transport by 90%. But between plumbing jobs, you've got to stop off at a garage and wait for two hours for the things to charge up. You saw the Ferrari yesterday. The high-end value of electric vehicles is so advanced. Oh, and by the way, don't try and drive through Sadiq Khan's Labour London because even those with electric cars are still penalised now.

31:13Apparently, we can't have them exempt from the congestion charge because there are too many hybrids and EVs. A congestion charge is for congestion. That's what it says on the tin. I thought it was about air pollution. No, it's about congestion. I thought Sadiq Khan was... Has it helped? Does anyone here think that since the congestion charge was introduced that London has become quieter on the roads? Hands up, yes. What absolute nonsense. The congestion charge is for congestion. ULES is for emissions. Ah, sorry. There's so many socialist charges it's hard to keep up. Ask a white van man or a nurse or a teacher in London what they think of both ULES and congestion charge.

31:52I'd like to ask a white van man and a white van woman if they would like me to be able to cut their transport costs by 90%. I think they're buying my arm off. But you'd have to heavily subsidise these cars, right? No, but you can provide it by a public-private partnership and that would pay itself off. And it's OK because it's net zero to have electric vehicles, even though the energy used to make them and the batteries outweighs the whole carbon-neutral argument. But that's fine because we're driving around in electric cars. We can all feel very virtuous, even though young children have been mining for scraps of minerals on kind of heaps of goodness knows what in the developing world.

32:34Are you attacking my friends in the People's Republic of China? Your friends in the People's Republic of China. They're all of our friends. I'm attacking any communist friends of yours that might have committed atrocities against the Uyghur people as they have tried to find minerals and solar panels to make us all feel greener. There's a reason why human rights are raised by every politician from the global north that visits China. The reason for that is that China's record on human rights is terrible. It's appalling. China's record on contributing to our prosperity through cheaper goods and contributing to our cutting back on climate crisis is great through its contribution to...

33:12Yes, well, Burnham must be grateful to the Chinese. They're helping to fund his airport city in Manchester, aren't they? Well, they've got lots of capital, but so have the Americans got lots of capital. They're going to finance our data centre. So a country like ours, outside the European Union, a disastrous mistake, but outside the European Union needs to find its capital and its stability from where it can. Two big sources, Silicon Valley, obviously, data centers and innovation, AI, but also China, which has a lot of capital looking to invest. And capital returns, a really good way to link countries together.

33:40Countries that invest in each other tend to not go to war against each other. On welfare, John. Welfare. Maybe we can find agreement because I did agree with Blair's analysis that the welfare bill is too high. I agreed with him when he said we should stop the triple lock. That was his biggest proposal. His biggest proposal was the triple lock. Telegraph readers are bringing up sick in their own mouths at this suggestion. What are you thinking? The state pension isn't very much, John. The state pension is a third. I appreciate auto enrolment is a great thing and people have private pensions. It's a third.

34:13It's not much. It's a third of average earnings, a third of median earnings. So little old ladies who are on£12 ,000 a year, John, you want to take away the triple lock from them? You want to choose between heating and eating? You have a whole system. If you only have the state pension and you don't own your own house and you don't have any savings, then you have pension credit, then you have housing benefit, then you have all of the other things that are provided. The winter fuel allowance. Free eye tests. Free bus passes. Free bus passes. and a loss of capital costs of your life you paid for during your working life.

34:49We can't have a situation where we set the state pension at a level that everybody can live on adequately without other support. It's part of a patchwork. Would you not accept that? I think it's part of a patchwork, and I do appreciate the contribution that pensions makes to the entire welfare straight benefits bill, and I do understand that it's sometimes misunderstood. It's the fastest rising one. I get that, and we've got an ageing population. It's not bigger than the NHS. It's not bigger than the NHS. But hang on, aren't there more injustices in the system? Oh, there's plenty of injustices.

35:20Listen, I think this parity between people with profound physical disabilities and people with ADHD and mild anxiety is completely wrong. I'll tell you, the unfairness in the system, one, universal credit is set far too low. The£20 extra, the uplift that was given during the pandemic, it was wrong to withdraw it. The level of UC is far too low. That's the basic. If our benefits were higher, it'd be better for everybody. Fewer kids in poverty, fewer adults in poverty. But don't socialists want it both ways? They want wages to be higher and benefits to be higher. Socialists want everything. Yeah.

35:55That's why we're socialists. That's why, because you've got a magic money tree where you're getting all this money from. What I don't understand about Conservatives is why you hate having it all. Because I think that somebody else always has to pay for it. And I think that we've learned from successive governments that are... The boss class. No, it's not boss class at all. I'd like to get back to a period of growth because I think prosperity economically, this is where I agree with Blair, that gives you the money to roll out social justice policies that help those in the greatest need. I do think that some people have abused our very generous welfare system to their own gains.

36:34I don't think it's right, and we've done stories about it, John, that people suffering from mild anxiety and ADHD should get, for instance, motability cars or indeed blue badges. I think a blue badge should be reserved for the person that physically has to park near the supermarket because they're actually disabled. So you know who controls blue badges? Who? Local councils. Right. Well, what are they playing at? Well, it's devolved. There's also this phenomenon, by the way. I believe in devolution. It's a matter for local councils. Devolution's gone well for Labour in Scotland and Wales, hasn't it, John?

37:05So devolution is the right for you to choose. The point of politics is never... Labour run Wales was a disaster, John. No, devolution is the right for you to choose. And you know the best thing about devolution? Glasgow and Edinburgh. People always go, oh, moony, moony, moony, what about that country? There were the other successful cities outside Manchester and London. Well, they're in Scotland, they're in Glasgow and they're Edinburgh. More devolution to more regions of England... I think that's more about urban regeneration. I think the battle now isn't about north and south. I think it's about city and town.

37:38I think cities, and this might be Burnham's problem, people in the city of Manchester doing brilliantly, oh, great, there's a new block of flats. I'm going to buy one for 600 grand because I work for the BBC at Salford Quays. Brilliant. Go out to the surrounding towns, not so much. And that's why you see reform winning in, say, Wakefield, but not necessarily in central Leeds. But you know that in Meccafield, for one, the best state school there sends more kids to Oxford and Cambridge than Dulwich College does. So something's going right in the state system and maker field. Something's going right in public services.

38:09And so the thing, look, and I think we agree on growth, and I think we probably agree on cities and towns, which is there's a complex relationship. So there are freestanding cities, market towns like Penrith or small tourist towns like Ambleside. But many, many, many towns are part of city region economies. And that's why I agree with what Labour did with the mayor of London, which was posed by the Tories. I agree with what the Tories have done with city region mayors. And I agree with Andy Burnham now, who's made himself into, just as Boris Johnson did, made himself into a political figure of national standing by being a devolved mayor.

38:47That used not to happen. Used not to be a national figure who's thought of as being able to go straight into being prime minister, as Boris did, or straight into. it's a big achievement to create figures from outside Westminster who can actually have heft and weight and be thinkers. More devolution, more control over health might well give them more innovation. You might actually see a Merseyside Health Service which actually uses bioscientific advances because there is a big bioscience around Merseyside. Starting to use those sectors. You're looking somewhere in Ontario. I know a bit about Ontario.

39:21Ontario has got Windsor, Ontario, where they built the cars. But around, as some of the car industries declined, they've built cutting edge healthcare industries. I get that. Just final point. Devolution space for innovation, that's all I'm trying to say. Before we wrap, John, can you please at least agree with me that devolution in Wales hasn't gone brilliantly? Labour in Wales has caused NHS waiting lists to be higher, educational standards to be lower, and you've been booted out and now everyone's voting for Plaid. Can I say, you're making the point for me. The point of devolution has never been for the Labour Party.

39:58We've found a structure to keep us in power forever. We've found a structure which allows you to choose in Wales. And do you know what? Wales has chosen. Wales chose Plaid because they thought Labour hadn't done well enough. And that's a judgment. A democratic judgment is the finest thing in the world. The second thing they went was, no thank you reform. And that's a really important thing. Second place we don't. No, I know, but we're choosing a government. We like you a bit more than Labour, they said. We like you a lot more than the Tories. Despite all of those mining towns being closed down by Thatcher, we still prefer Nigel Farage to Labour.

40:34That's what the Welsh decided, John. And who are the Tories they said to, didn't they? I'll tell you where we will agree. Let's agree to agree, as we end this podcast together, this little Sunday showdown, that we both believe in democracy. Yeah. Good man. John? It's a great thing. The greatest thing about this country, and Tony Blair often used to say it, which is everybody has the right to say what they think to the Prime Minister or the former Prime Minister. And you know what? That's so refreshing. If people disagree with Tony in his pamphlet or people disagree with him in government, disagree, he just goes, you know what?

41:05That's the right of a British-born person, the right of a British citizen. Even if you disagree with me invading a country, I'm still going to go and do it. Sorry, John, I couldn't resist that. We've had far too many mentions of Tony Blair on a Telegraph podcast for my liking. but John McTernan, thank you very much indeed for joining me. Always a pleasure.

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