The Sunday Showdown: Camilla takes on Northern Ireland Secretary Chris Bryant

0:02The Telegraph.

0:30the shift. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done. Pessimism. It's never going to improve a disconnected healthcare system. Next. So what will? At Optum, we're working every day to connect primary, specialty, and pharmacy care, and help lower prescription costs. Will we fix it all overnight? No, but we'll wake up trying again and again until healthcare works as one for everyone. That's healthy optimism. Learn more at Optum.com. Optum. What happens when a telegraph journalist on the right, me, takes on a Secretary of State on the left, me?

1:18We clash over Brexit, Russian interference and, well, sheep. And I prove that Camilla is a dirty fibber. I'm happy to be magnanimous. You're not looking it. What about Ed Davey? Want to jump into bed with him? Politically speaking. You're literally fibbing. And say something nice about Nigel Farage.

1:40Sir Chris Bryant, MP, Northern Ireland Secretary. You're looking at me through narrow... Well, because you started with a sir. Sir. Like it was a kind of sneer-sneer. I didn't mean it like that. But it came across that way, Cruella, over there in your polka dots. Just to say that you're saying I look a little bit like I'm in 101 Dalmatians and I'm saying I'm Cruella then, in your mind. Are we the best of frenemies? You once pitched that we should do a two-handed show. Yes, I think your whole career has depended on me. Do you why? Basically. Well, because I punted your name to lots of people. Did you?

2:12I thought you were very reasonable, calm, collected, charming, beautiful. Oh. All these things. Chris, you're fluttering me before we have this. Can we finish now? Yeah, exactly. Is this a showdown or a hoedown? Both. And if you want to do some kind of cowboy act From Oklahoma? Possibly You don't want me singing though I tried that on a previous podcast And we lost a great deal of our audience unfortunately Well I'm just a girl who can't say no I'm in a terrible fix I always say come on let's go Just when we ought to say nicks I won't start saying oh what a beautiful morning This is called the Sunday Showdown And it's where left and right Have a little bit of a Barney Find moments of agreeable disagreement And let's start with Brexit

2:57I tell you what just a simple debate on the table now Brexit it's gone very very well is probably what you're going to say you should be saying that because haven't all of your chancellors and prime ministers and let's be honest there's been two of each even though you were only elected in 2024 haven't they all been saying how well Britain has been doing compared to the rest of the G7 I think at times we've heard from Rachel Reeves and Keir Starmer and John Healy and Andy Burnham saying that we've got the fastest growth in the Eurozone and beyond. Therefore, how can you also say... Well, you can't say it.

3:28Brexit's been an economic disaster. You can't say that. Well, interestingly enough, the highest rate of economic growth in the United Kingdom is in Northern Ireland, where I am the Secretary of State. And Brexit was meant to be a disaster there. Well, and it has been problematic. Lots of unionists have made the point that there are difficulties in getting things for people to be able to export things from Great Britain to Northern Ireland. And you wouldn't even think that that would have to be thought of as an export. But we have a great advantage, which is that we lie into markets. We've got dual market access into the European Union and into the UK.

4:03So that's something I really want to capitalise on. Nothing to change there. Then why is Andy Burnham wanting to relitigate this when it could jeopardise the so-called Windsor framework, all of that delicate diplomacy that went on to get Stormont back together? Well, because it's all a bit of a mess, is the truth. In particular, as it relates to Northern Ireland, and you'll remember, of course, that Northern Ireland voted to remain in the European Union. I do remember that. And the kind of problem that we have is that obviously there's enormous costs for farmers and agri-food producers and so on crossing the border.

4:37And if we were able to get to a situation where we had a really good SPS deal, which I hope will come later on this year in the summit at the end of November, then that would solve a lot of these problems. One fact you probably won't know, but you will want to know for Mother's Day next year, is that 85 % of all the flowers that we sell in the UK come either from or through the Netherlands. And the problems getting them in and the additional costs that there are for importers into the UK are significant. There's some categories, in particular Solidago and some others, which are really difficult to get in.

5:11All of that is going to be much easier when we get this sorted. And that will make it easier. When you say when we get this sorted, do you mean when we realign, rejoin? No, no, when we do the deal on November the 20th, the SPS deal, which is about food and agriculture and those kind of things. So let me just get this right. The Northern Ireland economy is booming in comparison to the rest of the UK. You're getting flowers in for Mother's Day and you've got a deal that you're signing that will make things better. Why on earth does Burnham need close alignment with the EU? Well, the first bit that we've got to get right is we've got to get that bit right on the 23rd of November, so that deal, which includes food and so on.

5:48We've also got to get engaged in the electricity trading scheme because that would save, we reckon, something in the region of 20 % on energy costs in Northern Ireland. But you're avoiding the question, we don't need to rejoin, do we? You're getting on all right in Northern Ireland. I haven't said anything about rejoining. Do you want to rejoin? Well, I always thought that it was a bit of a problem leaving in the first place. And you're probably, you're looking at your papers now, you're going to find all the quotes where I would say, I was a Remainer, I remain a Remainer, I will remain a Remainer until my dying day.

6:17I will remain a Remainer until my dying day. Said as Minister of State for Trade. Brexit, not in my name. Never, never, never. Quite Maggie that, by the way. Well, no, I think it's more Ian Paisley, isn't it? Made in Europe will have to include the UK. I'm merely making the point, and this is interesting when it comes to Andy Burnham, who says that every piece of government policy must pass his so-called Makerfield test. Northern Ireland voted remain, Makerfield overwhelmingly voted leave. Rhonda and Ogmore also voted leave, I know. But why is he putting this back on the table when you yourself are admitting here that actually against the odds, despite Brexit, in adverted commas, Northern Ireland's doing all right?

6:55Well, I think we need to capitalise on the situation that we've got at the moment and we need to make it better, which is why we need to get the better deal in November. But there's a bigger issue here. So classic instance is that the European Union at the moment is thinking about this Made in Europe campaign, or the French call it la préférence européenne, which basically means that there will be subsidies for European companies, but only those within the European Union. Now, the real danger for us is that lots of our supply chains for cars, for instance, are across the whole of the UK and European Union.

7:34And the danger is that we get completely carved out of this. That could be absolutely existential for the British car industry. So we need to make sure that our relationship with the European Union is tight enough that they don't exclude us from these kind of arguments. We've had the same around steel. So the UK steel production is not the problem for the EU steel production. The problem lies elsewhere in China and other countries where it's heavily subsidised and so on. But the EU has imposed tariffs on us. We've imposed tariffs on them. there's a point at which you can't want to go well wouldn't it just be better if we had a steel alliance and we didn't have tariffs on each other so getting on with the EU so that European nations don't completely subject to us to a punishment beating post Brexit more than 10 years on isn't quite the same as rejoin I'm trying to pin down I'm not arguing for rejoin so why is Andy Vernon?

8:25Andy isn't well hang on a minute he's said several times that he wants rejoined to be on the manifesto that he's talked about he said this in the House of Commons I believe a couple of weeks ago. You believe, Camilla? Let me check my notes. Let's have a look at exactly what Andy Burnham has said on Rejoin. Certainly it's talked about Rejoin being on the manifesto. Certainly there's been a discussion about a second referendum. We had Emily Thornberry saying, oh, actually, why do we even need a second referendum? At the end of the day, if Rejoin is in the next Labour manifesto, the electorate can decide whether they want to support it or not, which might strike some people, presumably those majority of people that voted for leave, might strike them as rather illiberal and anti-democratic?

9:08Well, two things I'd say. First of all, the manifesto is for something in 2029, not for now. But the problem is now. What are we going to do now to make sure that our relationship with Europe is strong so that we have strong supply chains across Europe and our advanced manufacturing can really flourish in the UK because quite often we rely on imports and exports. Quite often bits and pieces of cars or other pieces of advanced manufacturing go in and out across the board, and we need to be able to do that in an easy way. We don't want unnecessary paperwork. We don't want unnecessary costs. So we need to tackle all of those issues as much as we possibly can so as to secure our position in a fairly fractured world trade market.

9:53Okay. The other reason why people think he is edging towards some kind of rejoin campaign. So I think the precise wording was that it would be possible to have rejoined the EU in the next Labour manifesto under his leadership. The other kind of indicator is this sowing the seed about Russian interference in the Brexit vote. And he obviously said that to a rival podcast. We don't need to mention the name here. What is its name? I can't remember, actually. It's presented by some Labour has been. You're literally fibbing. And some Tory guy. You are complete. I remember the Tory guy. What's he called?

10:25He was once the prison's minister. I remember interviewing him at HMP somewhere where he leaned back. Rory Stewart. We've just got to fix the windows. And I thought, is this really the best you can do? Can I tell you a Rory Stewart story? Please do. In his book. Yes. His much loved book by many people. He says. Not least Rory Stewart. He was having a terrible time as prison's minister because everybody was cross with him until he suddenly came up with the idea of a piece of legislation, which would mean that an assault on a worker, on a prison guard would be an additional offence. I texted him and said, Rory, would this be my private member's bill that you opposed, that you finally ended up caving into?

11:06And he said, yes. Oh, magpie, Rory Stewart, in adopting left-wing policy shock. Well, I'm not sure that it's left-wing. I was simply saying that attacks on our emergency workers. I came top of the private members ballot when we were in opposition. Didn't think I'd get anything through because we, you know, there weren't very many Labour MPs at the time. And I balloted my local constituency and said, what should I do as my private members bill? I gave them various suggestions and top of the list was a new offence of an assault on an emergency worker. So police officers, fire officers and prison guards.

11:39And it was happily championed by Nick Ferrari at LBC, where we were once going to perhaps host a show together at some point in the distant past. Which is why Nick can't bring himself to hate me. No, I can't bring myself to hate you. And also hate is not a progressive word. It's not a word we want to... Hang on, progressive. Well, we can be progressive in different ideological directions. We can. Chris Bryan. Back to Russian interference. And now I know you're going to be a stickler about the direct quote. The Prime Minister told the podcast that upon arriving at number 10, he was asked about possible Russian interference in the 2016 vote, adding, I've had the clear answer that yes, there was.

12:20I think we've been too much on the back foot and that actually we haven't informed people sufficiently about the extent to which people are seeking to disrupt the political process from overseas, he added. Now, head of MI5 Ken McCullum has said, no, this isn't the case. The security minister has said no. That's not quite what Ken McCullum said at all. The foreign ministers had to back down from this. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. And even the prime minister's backtracked a little bit, hasn't he? No, no, that's not true. I think even Theresa May said that there had been Russian attempts at interfering in previous elections.

12:53All right, let's get McCollum, who says there is a critical distinction between interference attempted and outcome swayed. I agree with that. He warned that constantly dwelling on Moscow's involvement risks playing into Kremlin hands, making Russian trolls look 10 foot tall. Luke Pollard, the defence minister, indicated that the government plans to publish future evidence of Russian interference. OK, fine. So it's just interesting that Andy Burnham said that, then backtracked, then appeared at PMQs today, we were calling this on Wednesday, to slightly double down. When his own foreign and security ministers have said no, Ken McCullen has gone, not sure there's clear evidence.

13:31and by the way, this is a man who is sort of doffing a metaphorical flat cap to the populace. He's a man of the people. He's a people's PM. And he's basically saying that if you voted for Leave, it's because a Russian bot told you so. Except he didn't say that. Well, that's my inference. Ah, it's your inference. Well, what do you think he's saying? If you're saying... He's saying, as I have said in the past and Theresa May said previously and others have said, that the Russians have obviously been interested in our politics. They've been interested in the politics of many countries across Europe in recent years and often tried to interfere in a variety of different ways.

14:10In some cases in European countries, they were actually bribing officials. And I think in Macedonia, I think people ended up being sent to prison and so on. So it's pretty obvious to me that the Russians have wanted to interfere in the British system, And whether they've been successful or not, I'm not arguing that. I think the British people are perfectly bright enough to be able to work things out. But it is true that one of the things that I remember seeing in particular in the Catalonian independence referendum was there was a lot of misinformation which had clearly been amplified. So there was division.

14:48Sure. And it had been amplified by Russian bots and stuff on social media. I think that that's pretty incontrovertible, isn't it? valley i mean they decided perhaps many years ago before even the invention of the internet that they wanted to be sovereignists rather than globalists to quote lord glassman i don't think there's a single person in the world who sat down and went i want to be a sovereignist rather than they might not have expressed it in that language chris bryant but no so i think what people in rural wales who voted for brexit might not even be on platforms like x and other social media channels to be influenced by russians well it uh no no i i mean i broadly agree with you except insofar as I know that what happened to my social media was there's a great deal of amplifying stuff about me and the commons authorities pointed some of that back to Russia.

15:34But look, I mean, I don't think anybody's saying that this invalidated the referendum result. I mean, what I think has invalidated the Brexit project is that we've lost out economically as a country because of Brexit and it's proved far stickier. It hasn't solved the problems that I think people thought it would, for instance, around migration, if anything, quite the reverse. OK, but how can you square the circle that is on one hand the Labour government insisting that we've had the fastest growth of the Eurozone and the G7, and on the other saying Brexit's damaged us economically? And by the way, throw in a side order, throw in a bit of sauerkraut in the shape of the German economy having tanked, sinks Brexit, and it's remained in the bloc.

16:21Look, well, these two things are not necessarily causal. Just because they correlate doesn't mean that they're necessarily causal. All the evidence that I've seen from every economist pretty much that is independent has suggested that the knock to the British economy, the additional economic boost that we would have on top of what we've achieved, would be in the tens of billions of pounds every year. and that I think somebody has referred to a 6 % knock to GDP. Okay, that figure has been discredited and disagreed with by others. Disagreed with. But just that central point, how come the German economy tanked despite Brexit and how come we have the highest growth in the G7 again despite Brexit?

17:10Whereas Spanish economy I think has had one of the fastest growths in Europe and it's a member of the European Union. So my point is that I don't think just membership The leadership of the European Union is not the single determinant of what happens to your economy. Well, why is the Prime Minister blaming Brexit on what's happened to the economy? Well, because some things, I think, have given undoubted problems to the UK economy. So if you want to export, we in the UK, I think it's one in 10 companies in the UK export. In France, it's something like three out of 10 companies, no, no, two out of 10.

17:43And in Germany, it's something like three out of 10. Exporting is good for you. It would be better if we had more companies in the UK that were able to export. The problems that we have because we're outside the European Union, the single biggest market, are quite significant. I grant you that there have been advantages. I was the trade minister. We were trying to – we signed a good deal with India, and then the EU signed a deal with India. We signed a good deal with the Gulf. I was intimately involved in that. The EU hasn't managed to do that. So there are gives and takes. But some of the deals that were signed under the previous government, for instance, Australia and New Zealand, I mean, farmers in Wales said, hang on, you've just destroyed Welsh farming.

18:25Well, has Welsh farming been destroyed? It's had a very tough time, in particular for sheep farmers. And there are lots of people who argue that the only way that we can solve some of the problems that we have for the whole of our agriculture in the UK is sorting out, as we want to do on the 20th of November, our SPS deal with the rest of Europe. But when it comes to British sheep, so to speak, and I vividly have... Welsh sheep. Welsh sheep, specifically. I mean, I vividly have Barry Gardner in my ear from a previous meeting in the back of a taxi on the way back from a question time appearance together, where he said that if Brexit happened, there wouldn't be a sheep left in the fields of, I think he said England, but let's just include Wales, which I thought was a bit too much of Project Fear.

19:16It was a bit far humbug, if you don't mind me saying, Chris. That is just about the worst. In my office, that would be called a dad joke. Fair enough. That would be a terrible dad joke. Which is probably sexist now. But wasn't there a problem with Welsh sheep farmers as soon as we signed ages ago that deal on New Zealand lamb, which had nothing to do with Brexit? No, no, it did because we... We were having New Zealand lamb into the country well before Brexit. No, but the deal that was struck by the Conservative government, which you may recall, the person who struck that deal then three months later said it was a terrible, terrible deal and he knew it from the beginning.

19:49Who was that? I can't remember. He was the agriculture minister who ended up leaving the government and he said it was a terrible deal. But Barry wasn't quite right, was he? Well, I think he was making a slightly different point at a different time because the point is that after we left the EU, we were able to sign new trade deals with other parts of the world and one of them was New Zealand and Australia. And my reading of what happened then was the Tory government was so desperate to sign a new deal, they just signed any old deal that came on the table. And it was actually, I mean, I know my Australian counterpart when I was trade minister, used to say, it's a really good deal for Australia.

20:26Yes. And I used to say, yes, well, and it has provided problems for the UK. We know the National Farming Union was heavily in favour of Remain because of EU subsidies and all the rest of it. Answer me this. What's been worse for the farming community of the UK? Brexit or Labour's now reversed farms tax? I mean, that was a disastrous idea. The single most important thing we could do for farmers in Northern Ireland at the moment is sort out our SPS deal so that they don't have the additional costs. And we look forward to November. But let's be honest, the farmer's tax was an unmitigated disaster.

21:01We saw tractors in Parliament Square. We had, goodness me, one or two suicides. We had mass protests, this idea of kind of taxing a degree of aspiration and thinking that you were catching James Dyson in some kind of dishonest landowning, you know, capitalist hell, ended up trapping the farmers who are literally providing Britain with its bread basket. I hate to tell you this, Camilla, but this is an area on which I'm not a massive expert. Sorry. Well, to be fair, there was also a flip-flop on it and it's been changed. So I think I'm just saying... So it's always cruel, isn't it, when it's a flip-flop or somebody's listened to Camilla and agreed with her.

21:46Yes. Couldn't you just be gracious? Magnanimous. Do you know what? At the time I said this was good that they were reversed. Right, let's just leave it there then. All right, I'm happy to be magnanimous. You're not looking it. Well, I don't think it was good. You're not looking happy or magnanimous. No, no, no, I did think it was a very good idea that that was reversed. I don't know who now represents the farming community of the UK. Obviously, Jeremy Clarkson appeared at the Conservative Party conference, not at Labour's. Would you want Jeremy Clarkson at a Labour Party conference? He was a Remainer, wasn't he?

22:14Ah, so you see, once a Remainer, always a Remainer. We know our friends. On the macro issue of Brexit, do you really think there's an appetite in the UK? Sorry, incidentally, just to go back, but there's one other thing that I felt very, very strongly always about in relation to Brexit was, I understand all these economic points, but there's another big point, which is, and I understand why Boris Johnson said this. He said that he thought, he said in a select committee at one point, he said, And we long passed the days when we would see tanks rolling across Europe. And then, of course, the second invasion of Ukraine happened.

22:47The first happened in 2014. I think we should have dealt with it much more robustly then. I agree. And then we might not have had in 2022. But you must agree with Boris on that, by the way, because he was robust on Ukraine, right? I know you two were adversaries when he was prime minister, massively so. I mean, you were desperately trying to bring him down. I thought he was a terrible prime minister, yes. He was a good leader on Ukraine, though. Yeah, I've always said this repeatedly. I mean, I think when he was Foreign Secretary, he should have done more. Yes. But anyway, he was on Ukraine. He was absolutely right to stand firm with Ukraine.

23:20And I'm really glad that he's calling out those who aren't standing firmly with Ukraine at the moment. That is all very important. But the point I was going to make was that right at the beginning, once Brexit, the referendum had happened, Theresa May became prime minister. And the first thing she said was that she wanted a defence and security deal with the European Union because, well, for obvious reasons. And actually, that's the bit that I think that has been missing for quite some time. And it's now a really important part of how we are thrust together with the European Union, because we know that.

23:51It's a bit like Stanley Baldwin, I think, in 1936 maybe said, I'll get this quote wrong, but he said in the House of Commons, our border isn't at Dover now. our border is somewhere in Poland. And actually, our border now, of course, there is a border at Dover, but there's also a border of our security, which is in Kiev. Yes, or our border is any NATO border, if we're going to suggest that there's a strength in numbers argument. And I do concur with you on that.

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26:54He's flirting in that territory. If a righty had said that, people would be going, you're a Trump, you're a mandate denier. You're denying the democratic mandate that was set in 2016. There would have been all that from the left to right. Andy Burnham says it and apparently it's not Trumpian. Well, I think if Trump was saying something in this territory, it would be rather more direct and less subtle than you're suggesting it would be. I don't think it is subtle for Burnham to have said. Well, he hasn't even said. He hasn't even suggested. I have had the clear answer. It's your intimation. It's your inference.

27:27Hang on, Chris Bright, let's just get this nailed down. The detail does matter. He was asked about possible Russian interference in the 2016 vote. He replied, I've had the clear answer that yes, there was. He is clearly saying that there was Russian interference in the referendum. That's exactly what he's saying. How is that different from Trump saying that there was interference in his own election? I don't think... Did Trump say that he had interference? Well, he said that the election was stolen, but it's Trumpian in its denial. I thought it was the other way around, wasn't it? What I'm saying is it's Trumpian in its denial of democracy.

28:05Well, I don't read it the way you do, but you're reading things with a different pair of glasses on. Maybe you're saying he probably shouldn't have said this and it was misjudged. No, I'm not saying that at all. Good try. Well, sounds like you don't agree with him. I completely agree with it. You agree there's clear evidence of Russian interference in the Brexit vote? I'm not quite sure what the precise words are that Andy used. I'm going to tell you them one more. Oh, God. Here we go. But the point, what I completely and utterly agree with is that the Russians would want a series of outcomes in the UK.

28:38What the Russians want and what the Russians achieved are two different things. I'm going to say it one more time. I think they applauded Brexit. He was asked about possible Russian interference in the 2016 vote. Those are not his words yet, are they? This is a direct verbatim quote from your Steve Heeler. Not that bit, but you've just read it, isn't it? He was asked about Russian interference. What was the precise question he was asked? He was asked whether there had been possible Russian interference in the 2016 vote. Let's not gaslight now. I know exactly what was said because I've listened to it multiple times.

29:09His response was as follows. I've had the clear answer that yes, there was. the next day, realising what he'd said he then tried to backtrack and then it became about we're going round and round in circles now because we've had this several times I don't think he should have said it and you're a good enough parliamentarian and expert on comms to know that this was a bit of a Burnham boo-boo it's not a Burnham I can't even say that is he any good this guy, Burnham really seriously, is there anything there beyond£2 bus fares some Manchesterism and some very nice eyelashes. Somebody said nice eyelashes to me yesterday.

29:50I was thinking, what? And then I realised Andy Burnham was standing next to me. I felt a bit deflated. Did that actually happen? Yes. What do you mean, did that actually happen? Was it a woman or a man who commented on the eyelashes? A man? On the left or on the right? I can't remember. I can't remember. It happened behind the speaker's chair. Anyway, look, what was the point? I was going to make? I'm asking you whether you think that this man's up to the job. So 100%. And I've been really charmed by the way he deals with other people, the way he listens to debate, encourages debate. He's perfectly happy if people go, I'm sorry, Prime Minister, you're wrong.

30:34And he will recalibrate and think about it. Well, he takes too long thinking. He kicks everything into the long grass. Let's get Louise Casey down and look at it by 2036. What was the very first thing that he did? He cut taxes. Day one, cut taxes. Something that you could have been arguing for a very, very long time. And if you were clever, Camilla, which obviously you are. I don't know about that. Camilla, sorry. Why did I call you Camilla? Christopher, I don't know. Camilla. Like Camilla Harris. Yes, Camilla Harris. Go on. Incidentally, are you Irish? Have you an Irish family? Yeah, Irish, Italian.

31:07Tomany. Well, it was actually Tomany married a woman called Bernadetta Maria de Mambro. from Froziononi in Italy. And she insisted they changed the name from the more Irish Tomani to the more Italian-sounding Tomini because they ran an ice cream company and they wanted people to think it was Italian. Is there a Timothy in your family? Timothy Tomothy? Timothy Tomini? No, he'd be Tim Tomini. Tim Tomini. Tim Timturi. Tim Timini. Sorry. Christopher Bryant, can we get back to the subject, which I think was whether Andy Burnham is any good at his job? Yes, I think he's really good. And interesting.

31:40I mean, one of the things that I think you really want in a leader. I know you'll deride this, but I think it's important. Yesterday afternoon, it's now Wednesday afternoon, but on Tuesday afternoon, we had people from Northern Ireland who'd lost family members in the Troubles. And they're desperate to, it's what we're bringing forward legislation next week called the Troubles Bill, which is all about trying to get answers for people about how their loved ones were killed, including people who served in the armed forces, people who served in the RUC and others. 90 % of those who were killed in Northern Ireland were killed by paramilitaries.

32:13There's some 3 ,500 families. And Andy met with them. I mean, he was just amazing with them. They were absolutely bowled over. I'm not doubting his goodness and decency. No, but I think empathy is a really important part of a modern leader. Really important. You need to be decisive. Yes, he is. And you need to be able to take decisions sooner than referring them on to endless reviews and consultations. So I'll give you an instance in my… Consultations. I'll give you an instance in my own portfolio. So on the issue of the Troubles Bill, which had been hanging around now for months and months and months, the second reading was last November, for heaven's sake, still hadn't come forward to a committee stage.

32:54And it was absolutely clear right from the beginning, yes, we're going to get this through into the House of Commons. There are difficult bits to it. We've got to get them right. It's a really difficult balancing act between making sure that we stand by the people who served us in Northern Ireland in Operation Banner, but at the same time making sure that families, including veterans' families, can get answers. And he was absolutely clear from day one. And what I thought was really impressive is he turned up for the debate last night. OK. Now, I've seen lots of prime ministers. Heaven knows we've had quite a few over the years.

33:28Yeah. And I can detect a good one. All right, fair enough. And on that bill, obviously, this newspaper had done quite a lot to expose the sort of Starmer, Shiner, Hermer legal access on this. I'm going to say this very carefully because I'm talking about three lawyers. And you would understand, I'm sure, that the Telegraph readership was incandescent at the notion that people who bravely served in the armed forces should then find themselves many, many decades later. as middle-aged, if not old-aged pensioners being persecuted, prosecuted. Do you agree now that that was a catastrophic error? I think it's really important that we stand by our veterans.

34:16We put them into service, and it was a very complicated situation in Northern Ireland. It's not like a normal situation where our armed forces are serving. They were backing up the police. So one of the things when I came into post was I was really keen to make sure that we get this bill right so that veterans, it's not even that they need protection. They need to know that we stand by them. Yes. And so, for instance, the body that's going to be trying to get all these answers for families in Northern Ireland will have to now, we've put this on the face of the bill, say that there is no equivalence between the lawful actions of our armed forces and the deliberate acts of terrorists.

35:00Now, that's really important because the legislation that was previously introduced by the previous government, the Tory government, actually had an equivalence between those. It gave an immunity to both terrorists and to armed forces. But let's not rewrite history here because you're giving quite a lot of responsibility in this legislation to the Attorney General. That's fine if the Attorney General agrees with us. Not quite so fine if the Attorney General is somebody like Lord Hermer, who has historically taken it upon himself, made his career on trying to prosecute British soldiers for so-called crimes that we now know didn't actually exist in the Middle East.

35:34So why not just have a straight statute of limitations and say that no, I'm not saying, by the way, and I would never argue, you can be a soldier in war and act with total impunity outside of the Geneva Convention. And incidentally, one of the things I thought was really unfair was that people were suggesting that people in the army wanted this and they didn't. No, they didn't. Nobody wanted immunity. Everybody needs safeguards. And also, you don't want immunity for terrorists either, for former terrorists. But surely there must come a point in any former soldier's life where, how on earth can you litigate for something that happened in the 70s and 80s in 2020?

36:09No, I completely agree. But also, you've got to bear in mind, I mean, I met one chap who said that his father was killed during the Troubles when serving in Operation Banner. Right. He sees the guy who killed him, who he knows killed him, every week in Marks and Spencers. Right. But there's never been a process that has led either to a criminal justice process or any other kind of process that has laid out the facts in relation to that. And will this bill change that? Yes. This is the bill that gives him the opportunity to find out what actually happened. Because he can go to the, it will be called the Legacy Commission when we've finished our bill.

36:46He'll be able to go to the Legacy Commission and say, look, can you just find out what happened? And it may be that at the end of that process, they will go, you know what, we've got so much, so many facts, so many details. that there could be a prosecution of the paramilitary who killed him. It may be that they can't go that far, but they can get all the other facts together. So the first of these kind of reports was produced a few weeks ago into the murder of a man called Rory O 'Kelly, who was Catholic but worked for the British government in the prosecuting service. And he was killed by paramilitaries.

37:26And when I spoke to his daughter, Anne, who hadn't initially actually started this process, it was her brother who had done so, she said, even though they don't have all the details, they don't know who actually did it, but they know more of the details that they did in the past, she said just the acknowledgement that it happened was an enormous sense of release for her. Yes. So that's precisely what we're going to be able to do through all this. So in the interest of magnanimity, will you accept that Lord Hermer had previously got this completely wrong? Well, we're changing the bill. Well, of course.

37:55It was wrong under the former Attorney General. That's why I'm expressing concern about the power being attributed to Attorney General. So let me just explain a bit about the Attorney General. So the original version of the bill would have meant that the final decision on whether to prosecute just lay either with the prosecuting authority in Northern Ireland, if it had happened in Northern Ireland, or some of these troubles related issues like the Guilford pub bombing, for instance, happened in England, obviously. So that would be for the director of public prosecutions in England and Wales. Now, they will both still have a role to play.

38:26If at the end of this process it is felt that there is enough material for an actual prosecution, I think the numbers will be very, very small. All we've said is that since the Attorney General is also the Advocate General in Northern Ireland, and since you might have decisions in Northern Ireland and some in England and Wales, it will be better if the final decision was made by that person. Because of the harmonisation of that legislation. I understand the point Why can't you just say he was wrong And you've righted it Well because I don't Well we're changing the bill We're correcting the bill In lots of different ways And I'm not I've never discussed it With Lord Helmer He's not enough this anymore You can just say it I've never discussed it With Lord Helmer So I'm being magnanimous as well I am being told to wrap up So I would like to ask you this Have you talked too long I think we both have This is what happens When people like us See we should have had An LBC show Possibly There's still time isn't there Although I'm quite busy, so are you.

39:24I can add this to my slate. I'm already working six days a week. And I am the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. Can I ask you a question that might shock you? Would you, under any circumstances, politically speaking, get into bed with Zach Polanski? Now, I ask this because today at PMQs, Andy Burnham... I've shivered. Yeah. Andy Burnham appeared to rule out the idea of any kind of coalition that involved the Greens on the left. And of course, the moment the MRP polling is pointing towards there being a hung parliament, should a snap election be called, that will therefore result in a bit of dealing between the parties.

40:00Where will Ed Davey go? I think he's more in your camp than ours on the right. Yes, on the right, because I don't think he'll get into bed with either the Conservatives or Reform. Are you Conservative or Reform? I can't remember. I'm not giving away any allegiance. I'm just a righty. I'm agnostic at the moment. I may tactically vote just to keep any kind of progressive alliance out. I've said that on the record. All right. So would you get into bed with the Greens? Well, I'm a Welsh MP apart from anything else, which means it all casts slightly different. But look, I mean, what they've come up with, the motion that they passed at their conference.

40:38Zionism is racism. Absolutely disgraceful. And it made me sick that there's a political party that is prepared to advocate that. It's worse than the worst of Corbyn, that, isn't it? was literally about to be my next sentence. Because in the end, I want a two-state solution. And just as it's wrong to be building more illegal settlements in Israel, which in a way so as to prevent a two-state solution, so it is equally wrong to make the kind of argument that they have, which is effectively to say that the state of Israel should no longer exist. I think it's profoundly wrong. And of course, you know, there are things that the Green Party in the past when Sarah Lucas, no, Caroline Lucas, sorry, was leader, used to advocate in particular around, you know, green policies and green energy and things like that.

41:34And some other policies which I would happily support. But I think this would make it very, very difficult. Yes. What about Ed Davey? Want to jump into bed with him? Politically speaking. I know what a thought.

41:53My answer, Camilla, to getting into bed with Ed Davies. Would you get into bed with Kimmy Babelock? Do you have a grudging respect for Kimmy Babelock? No, actually, I don't. Why? She said some things which I felt she didn't really believe and she said them for political reasons. Shock horror. Politician in saying something they don't believe for political reasons shock. Yeah, I know. I get that, of course. And I'm Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, for heaven's sake. But I think that I find her... Actually, the first words I ever said in a play were when I played Flewellyn in Henry V. And he says, as magnanimous as Agamemnon.

42:45Now, I just want people in politics, I suppose, to be as magnanimous as Agamemnon. And one of the things I'm constantly trying to say in Northern Ireland politics is it's easy to stir up her grievance. It's much more difficult to calm it down. Hang on. And I find her a stirrup of grievances. Chris Bryant, I can't believe you're saying this. My good, I look shamefaced now. Well, first of all, thank you for the big reveal about your amateur thespianism. Second of all, you love stirring it up. You're there on X having a go at righties. You're like, you like to get a big old wooden spoon out. I like to think that I'm always witty and generous and magnanimous in it.

43:27Yeah, but you do love a bust up with a righty, let's be honest. Well, I mean, some of the things that are said to me on social media are, you know, what was it yesterday? I was, because the Pope had a nodule in his lung. Yes. And I had my second round of cancer was melanoma in my lung. So it returned. It was original on the back of my head and then it came in my lung. I remember. I think my colleague Gordon Rayner did the story with you. Exactly. And I did. And in fact, he was in the car when I heard the results. That's right. And we had to stop because I was crying. We have a heart, the journalist here, you know.

44:02He's nice. Anyway, look, I'm telling you a story. Sorry, carry on. I'm pouring out my heart. Please do. You heartless woman. I know, I'm sorry. And so I posted yesterday saying I wish the Pope well because he would have been going through a very similar operation to the one I did and I know what it was like. Though, I mean, I think he had a larger chunk taken out. And incidentally, I would really pay tribute to the fact that they're being so open about it because it's so important for other people to show that somebody... Like the King and Kate in a way. All of that. I think it's really, really important because we need to defeat this idea that cancer always kills.

44:3950 % of people soon will be living with having had cancer or living with cancer. Anyway, I posted something about it saying I wished him well. Somebody replied, I hope you've got AIDS by now. Oh, for God's sake. So all I'm saying is, and I try to, you know, brush a lot of that off. Quite often if somebody, you know, has a go at me and calls me a raving pofter or whatever, I will say, stop flirting, love. No, quite. It's amazing, isn't it, how many people bring sexuality suddenly into a debate about something completely different. My husband didn't even know I was gay, so it was quite a revelation to him.

45:16Goodness me, exactly. I was called a delusional hag last night. And I said a hag maybe, but delusional? Oh no, I was going with the delusional bit. It was the delusional bit I was signed up to. Delusional was spelt incorrectly and I did point it out to him on Instagram. With an I? In the interest of magnanimity again then, say something nice about Nigel Farage.

45:39about Nigel Farage. Well, actually, the thing I think that must be really tough for him is I worked on the by-election in Clacton, not when he stood the first time, but a previous one, and I remember going to Jaywick's and thinking, that is some of the worst housing I've seen of anywhere in this country. It's the most impoverished area of England. And it shouldn't, I mean, how on earth did anybody allow that to happen? You know, these were basically sort of sheds by the sea, which ended up becoming people's homes and there aren't proper streets and all that kind of stuff. So I feel for him that he's got a really, really tough constituency to represent.

46:23Fair enough. Shall we end on that agreeable note, Chris Bryant? I still think he's wrong. Well, that's fine. About everything. I know, but... And he's done more damage to this country than anybody else. He hasn't even been in charge of the country. Yeah, well... You think he's done more damage than, say, Thatcher? Well, you see... A little grudging respect for Maggie. I can just tell it in you. No, no, no, no, completely not. I mean, so I'm the MP for Rhonda and Ogmore, former mining constituency, and I mean, I know other people closed mines as well in the past. Well, Labour actually closed far more mines than the Conservatives.

47:02Ever did, Chris Bryant. Absolutely true. But what happened when Thatcher closed the mines is that everybody was put on benefits and that's given us a long-term, you know, financial, economic problem. What's interesting about that CSJ report from this week on benefits, Centre for Social Justice, is to be fair, all of the areas where more than half the population are on benefits, and I think it's 3 ,000 areas across the UK, are all former industrialised towns. Yes. So right and left need to accept the failings on that. You know, there's a Russian, sorry to use Russian, but there's a Russian word, monogorod, and it means a city that only has one industry.

47:41And that's basically what the valleys of South Wales were. They had one industry. In our case, it was mining just down the road. It was steel and so on. And where you only have one industry and that industry collapses in on itself or ends up being closed or whatever. I think there's an enormous onus on the whole of a country to have to come in and make a difference to make sure that those people have new opportunities. Because people only went to live in the Rhonda and in Ogmore in those tight little valleys because there was coal. And so trying to recreate a world in which people have economic opportunity is really difficult in those circumstances.

48:16You asked me about my Irish-Italian heritage. I've also got some Welsh heritage. Have you? My maternal grandmother, Vera Mary Hluellen Lloyd-Jones. There you have it, Chris. There's more that unites us than divides us, isn't there? Yes, to remember Joe Cox. Indeed, and this week, David Amis. Chris Bryant. Just on David Amis, incidentally. Lovely chap. One of the things, absolutely adorable, and one of the things that I loved about him was he was passionately opposed to gay marriage, but he always asked me after my husband. Did he? Yeah. He was passionately against it because he was a very, very committed and devout Christian.

48:53Yes, I think Roman Catholic. Ah, he's one of mine. I'm lapsed. Does that make you a notorious apostate? I don't know what it makes me. I think it does. It makes me something... A notorious apostate. A delusional notorious apostate. Tim Stanley is trying to drag by her feet back to Rome. On that note, Chris Brandt, thank you for being a good sport. And thank you for taking part in this Sunday showdown. Great to speak to you. Thank you very much.

49:40We'll see you next time.

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