The Sunday Showdown: Pro-Gaza eco warrior Dale Vince storms out of clash with Camilla

0:02The Telegraph.

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1:03Medications prescribed only if clinically appropriate based on a consultation with a clinician. Insurance coverage varies. Check with your plan for coverage. Hi, it's Kat and Nat, and this episode is sponsored by Michael's, your destination for all things birthday parties. With seven kids between us, we're always planning a celebration. Summer is no exception. With prices starting at just 99 cents, Michael's Party Shop has over 4 ,500 party supplies across more than 60 themes for every age and every celebration. Whether your kids are into bluey, rodeos, soccer, rainbows, or something totally different, you'll find everything you need in one place.

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1:50What happens when a pro-Palestinian eco-warrior takes on a Telegraph journalist that's pro-Israel? I did try to have a Sunday showdown with Dale Vince, and then this happened. Well, you asked me first if I agreed with his statement, and I don't. The facts are wrong. OK. And then it got a bit long winded and complicated. Do you know what? I'm going to leave because I'm not having this discussion. I'm sorry. What? You're joking. Why?

2:28Dale Vince, eco-warrior, entrepreneur. Can I call you that? You may. Welcome to the Daily Tea. You're having a green tea, very appropriately. And you are dressed for the weather. We're in a heatwave. Did you cycle here? No, I came in a cab. A black cab. Yeah, an electric one, I think. Oh, there you have it, of course. OK, so on trend. Now, we're going to have our Sunday showdown and debate some of the topics that really matter to you. I know that the key one is the environment. However, before we get on to those issues, can we just talk about Israel, please? Now, I appreciate that some of this has been the subject of a legal challenge, so I certainly don't want to get myself into hot water by libeling you or anything else.

3:12But you did once say, in regard to Hamas, and I hope I'm directly quoting you and tell me if I'm wrong, One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Did you say that? And do you regret it now? I did say it. It's a very common expression. I don't know if you've ever heard it before. Yes. And I don't regret it because it's a matter of fact. OK. I mean, I think some people would be offended by the idea of Hamas terrorists after October the 7th when they found to have raped and murdered Jews in Israel being described as freedom fighters. rather than just simply as terrorists. But what I said is one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

3:54So the view is very different from the other side of the street, let's say. What are Israel doing in Gaza, murdering and raping people? Is that better? Well, I'm just talking about... Are they freedom fighters or are they terrorists? But let's just stick to Hamas. Do you think they're terrorists or freedom fighters? No, I don't think we should stick to Hamas. Well, I'd like to, just for the purposes of an answer to this question. Do you think Hamas... I'm not going to answer that question. You're not going to tell me whether you think they're terrorists or freedom fighters because they're prescribed as a terrorist group, aren't they?

4:20They are. So they are ergo-terrorists. They are. So you do think they're terrorists? In UK law, they're terrorists. OK. In your mind, Dale Vince, are they terrorists? We're not talking about my mind. Why not? This is what the Sunday Showdown is all about, for me to get into your mind. I'll lay my mind bare. I think Hamas are terrorists. Do you agree or disagree? I'm not going to say. I think they've committed acts of terror, there's no doubt about that. But at the same time, they're trying to defend their country. I think there's no doubt about that. The incursion into Israel, I don't think was self-defence.

4:54That was a terrorist act. It was a terrorist act. So October the 7th was definitely a terrorist act. This is what I'm struggling with then. If they are a terrorist group who have committed terrorist acts, they are consequently terrorists. Aren't they? I think you're one-eyed on this. Why? Because of what you say. Well, if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, it is a duck. If it is a terrorist group and they carry out terrorist acts on October 7th, which we both agree on... They're defined as a terrorist group by UK law. Yes. And they have committed acts of terror. I think that's a reasonably established fact.

5:31But at the same time, they're trying to defend their country. Now, if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, is it genocide that's been committed in Palestine? Well, now that's a really good point. Now, let's be honest about this, and I know you are somebody who absolutely thinks Israel has committed and is committing a genocide against the Palestinians. That's not been upheld in any court of law. There's been no legally binding decision to say that it is a genocide. So let's be very clear about this. The ICJ has said that it is plausible that the rights of Palestinians in Gaza under the Genocide Convention are at risk of irreparable harm and it's ordered Israel to take steps.

6:11But there has been no finding in law that Israel is committing genocide. So how do you know better than the ICJ? I don't, but I read that they had made a preliminary finding of genocide. No, they haven't. That's a misinterpretation of what the ICJ have found. They have merely found, and let me state it again, that they're at risk of causing irreparable harm to Palestinians and Israel have been ordered to take steps. that this whole Israel is genocidal isn't correct. It's not been found to be the case in international law. So is somebody not murdered until a court founds them to have been murdered?

6:48Well, that's a really interesting point because murder requires intent to kill and an actus reyes, the actual act of killing. If you're going to give a defence to murder, which in this case is self-defence, then yeah, you might not be found guilty of murder. Self-defence. Yes. 100 ,000 civilians bombed. Six Hiroshima's dropped on the tiny state of Palestine by the Israeli army, a local superpower. I mean, look at the kettling of millions of people, the starvation, the deprivation. I mean, and the statements of the Israeli government, they're saying they want them out. They won't allow food and aid in.

7:22They blame that on Hamas as well. But you just look at the statements of the right-wing Israeli government. They are extreme. We wouldn't tolerate this from another country in this world. Sure. So, OK, let's use a different example. Were the British committing a genocide against the Germans when they bombed Dresden? That was an act of... Self-defence? No, no, it wasn't. Firebombs in a wooden city? That was a deliberate act of terror. But in war, when does war become genocide? Well, war has rules. Yes. So under the current rules, the ICJ hasn't ruled that Israel is genocidal. Therefore, why are you bandying around this, as some would say, blood libel?

8:04No, no, I think some in the right-wing Israeli government call it that, but it's a ridiculous thing to say. I mean, there's so much blood been spilt in Palestine by the Israelis. There is no question that it's deliberate targeting, targeting of civilians, of aid workers, of the press, of children. There are more child amputees in Palestine than anywhere else in the world. It's an incredibly barbaric thing that the Israeli military... It is a two-way street, right? It's barely a two-way street. Well, hang on a minute. Stack the numbers up. Stack the numbers up. Hang on a minute, because this is the other thing.

8:36This is where I personally think your argument falls down. After Bondi Beach, you said on X, let me just say this, let me just say this and we can abate it. You said on X, nothing to do with Israel committing genocide in Palestine then. You can't have it both ways. You can't suggest that this is retaliation for what Israel is doing and then not suggest that Israel is retaliating against what Hamas did on October 7th. Israel clearly are. It's a two-way street. No, Israel clearly are. So if Israel are, then Hamas are. Look, I don't know where this comes from. I wasn't here to talk about this. We're going to get onto environment, I promise.

9:11But you're very vocal on these issues. Give me a chance to speak then. OK, go for it. Because you're not, actually. You've got a prepared script and facts and you're bombarding me. Let me speak. So the Israelis have been clear that they've acted in response to the incursion on October 7th. But it's an overreaction by anybody's measure. It's incredible. 100 ,000 deaths versus, was it 1 ,000? I don't know. You know, it's almost 100 to 1. Now, is that a proportionate reaction? Is the bombing of Gaza, to the extent that it looks like the face of the moon, with 95 % of all buildings gone, is that a proportionate reaction?

9:44Is the starvation of civilians, you know, millions of civilians in Palestine, the denial of aid, is that proportionate? That's a war crime, actually. It's an occupied territory. Bear with it, it's an occupied territory. Israel, as the occupier, has the obligation under international law to look after those people. Sure. And it isn't doing that. OK. My counterargument would be they haven't been found guilty of any war crimes. They haven't officially been found responsible for a genocide, despite the rhetoric that you and others use, that actually Hamas have been using people as human shields now for years and years and years.

10:19The fact that there are mass casualties is because it's actually a proportionately tiny plot of land compared to the rest of the Middle East, that if actually Hamas weren't building tunnels under actual civilian populations, then the bombings wouldn't have that effect and that indeed we know humanitarian aid has gone in because we've seen the humanitarian aid being delivered. We've also seen footage out of Gaza that doesn't suggest that everybody is being starved to death. It literally doesn't suggest that. Have you seen the pictures from the territory? I've seen all sorts of pictures. I've seen staged footage as well.

10:56There's barely a building left standard. Have you seen the reports of snipers targeting children in their schools? Have you seen those? I've seen all of the reports, but just in response to... So how's that self-defence? So human shield, use of guards and people as human shields by Hamas? Do they? That's what the Israelis say. Do they? Well, I think actually journalists have found tunnels, haven't they? The Israelis have been accused of doing that, going into buildings holding Palestinian people in front of them. Have you seen those reports? I've seen loads and loads of reports, but some of the reports are unverified, aren't they?

11:23because we can't actually... This is where you and I will definitely agree. What we actually need is for impartial journalists, and I mean impartial, to go in and try and find out what on earth is actually happening as opposed to contested statistics from the Israeli government, contested statistics from Palestinian health authorities that turn out to be Hamas. We haven't got an objective view of what's going on. I think we have enough facts in front of us. We have videos, we have pictures and so on. And I think it's ridiculous, actually, to say that this is a two-sided affair and we don't know what to believe.

11:58You know, we can believe our eyes and what's happening is incredible. But let me ask you this question. Were the Germans found guilty of genocide? Were the Germans found guilty of genocide back during the Nuremberg trials? No. Was that word used? Yeah, you tell me when they were found guilty. I'm saying when they were gassing Jews in concentration camps, were they found guilty of genocide? Well, not at the time because it didn't emerge until later. No, so should we have acted to stop the gassing of Jews in their concentration camps? Or should we have said, well, actually, there's no evidence that they're actually committing genocide.

12:28We have to wait for a court to say. Well, I think that we shouldn't be suggesting that the ICJ has found them guilty of genocide if they haven't. That's not an answer. No, it is an answer. You're saying... No, you're pivoting back to the ICJ. I'm asking you a question directly about the legal finding of genocide. Do we have to wait for it? I think you need a legal finding of war crime. For anyone to be found guilty of anything criminal, they actually have to be found guilty of it. I think you missed my point. No, I think you're missing mine. I think you can't just accuse people of things without actually...

13:02So the Germans didn't commit genocide? We know they do now because it was found to have been the case at the Nuremberg trials. It was found to be the case thanks to the prisoner who escaped from Auschwitz putting a huge dossier together which helped to inform the British and American legal case against the Nazis. You mean we didn't know about it before Nuremberg? Well, we didn't know about the extent of the gas chambers in the camps until they were liberated, no, unfortunately. We knew they were happening. Some people at the time knew they were happening. Churchill and others did, but we didn't try it.

13:35Was it genocide at that point when Churchill knew it? I don't know because I don't know what he knew at the time, Dale Vince. I'm just saying it's not genocide until it's found to be genocide. Exactly, and that's your argument. Therefore, Churchill couldn't have known it was genocide. OK, so if you get a feeling someone's guilty of a crime... Mass murder. If you get a feeling someone's guilty of a crime, you're just going to call them a criminal without any legal finding at all. No, you're being silly. We're not talking about one person. We're talking about an army. We're talking about a Middle Eastern superpower that is mass murdering Palestinian civilians, aid workers and journalists, the people you'd like to be in there to tell us the truth.

14:09They're targets if they go in there. Are they genocidal maniacs? Oh, dear. No, not until a court finds them guilty, according to you. Oh, OK, so you do agree with me. Right, we found a period of agreement.

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15:04Here we are seven years later still speaking about this case. I think it's a sham. The Diamond King, a new podcast from The Telegraph. With me, Mick Brown. And me, Robert Mendick. Out now. Middy knows that just when you thought you had your body all figured out, bam, perimenopause. Suddenly, your hormones are raging like it's puberty round two. You're waking up at 3 a.m. and dealing with mood swings that have mood swings. Your ears are itchy, your jeans don't fit, you need an industrial-sized fan to cool down, and you've suddenly forgotten the word for microwave. Most women in perimenopause don't know that they are, even though it can last for 10 years.

15:51They also don't realize that most of their symptoms are treatable. That's why we built MidiHealth. Midi is a company built by women who've been through it. Our menopause experts actually listen and treat the real symptoms you're feeling. Your symptoms aren't just common, they're treatable. Schedule a visit with a menopause specialist at MIDI. Visit joinmidi.com. Specialist-led care, virtual visits, insurance eligible. Midlife needs MIDI. Results may vary. Medications prescribed only if clinically appropriate based on a consultation with a clinician. Insurance coverage varies. Check with your plan for coverage.

16:22Hi, it's Kat and Nat, and this episode is sponsored by Michaels, your destination for all things birthday parties. With seven kids between us, we're always planning a celebration. Summer is no exception. With prices starting at just 99 cents, Michael's Party Shop has over 4 ,500 party supplies across more than 60 themes for every age and every celebration. Whether your kids are into bluey, rodeos, soccer, rainbows, or something totally different, you'll find everything you need in one place. Plus, you can get a free helium inflation on select balloon styles. Shop online, pick up in-store, or get same-day delivery.

16:57Visit Michael's in-store or shop online now. Do you keep hearing podcast ads, like this one for example, but always wonder how you actually get involved with them for your own brand or organization? Well, it's easier than you think. We're Acast, and we give you the platform to do it all yourself. Browse thousands of popular podcasts, choose the shows that match your perfect audience, set your budget and launch and if you want a hand our podcast specialists are there to help you launch with confidence this is podcast advertising without barriers get started at a cast.com slash advertise let's move on to net zero because i think that would also be mass Mass murder is not genocide, right?

17:47What? Well, sorry, you need to look up the definition of genocide. What do you think genocide is? Because there is one. It's the intent to eradicate. Wipe out a whole population. Yes. Do you think that there are some Islamic extremists in the Middle East that want to wipe out Israel and consequently are guilty of genocidal thoughts? Thought crimes now, are we talking about? Do you think so? Who knows? Who knows? I think you're entirely probably right. But look, we're talking actual genocide or thought crime genocide. Come on. No, I'm just saying that, of course, if people, for instance, you could argue that somebody who says from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free, actually wants to wipe Israel off the face of the map.

18:27If they want to do that, then they probably do have genocidal tendencies. That's an incredible stretch of logic. I think Houthis and Hezbollah and Hamas, who basically want to exterminate the Jewish population, not just of Israel, but of the world by blowing them up, probably are genocidal, Dale Vince. And whereas Israel are an entirely peaceful nation that never did any harm to any Palestinian people, that don't actually covet their land because they've said they want the land and they want them to go. They've even made proposals for shipping them out, the Palestinian people. You've made your case on this.

19:00I've made mine. Let me tell you one other thing. Okay, go on, because I want to get onto green matters. Yeah, I'm up for that. But look, on the question of one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist, Yeah. I saw a film last night about Nelson Mandela. Sure. He was a terrorist. Yes. Until he got let out of prison, became the president, and then history looks back and says actually he was a freedom fighter. I don't think, forgive me, but I'm not sure Nelson Mandela ever raped and tortured people. I haven't finished my little. And killed children. I haven't finished. Okay. So if you go back to, I think it was like the early 50s, the late 40s after the Second World War, Israeli terror groups operated in British-controlled Palestine.

19:36night. They bombed a hotel. I think it was the King David Hotel. They killed 100 people. It was a bomb without warning. And three terrorist groups were operating there, campaigning for a state of Israel. They eventually got it. And the leader of one of those groups became one of its early presidents. Freedom fighters, terrorists, turned into politicians and leaders. And in Israel, he'll be a freedom fighter. But this makes my point. Even in Israel, terrorists become freedom fighters or they're viewed... I totally get the premise of the quote. I just think that Hamas are terrorists. Is that it?

20:12That's the end of your appreciation of world affairs? No, no, no. Just on that particular quote, because you said it about Hamas. I didn't. You did. It was in relation to Hamas. No, no. We're having a conversation about the Middle East and what Hamas and Israel are doing to each other. All right. Shall we? We're going to agree to disagree on that. Well, it's... Come on. Let's go to agree. I'm so surprised. I'm so surprised. I know. I know. I really am. This is why it's a Sunday showdown, Delvin, because we can have these debates and still hopefully leave here as something resembling friends. I think your people should have said to my people that this is not only about net zero.

20:46We're also going to get into the Middle East. How can we not? You've got your scarf here. You're constantly talking about the Middle East. Your script didn't pre-see my scarf. It's questions. And the next question is, why don't you like the term net zero? Maybe we agree on that Well maybe we do But I'm really annoyed by what you've said about Israel and Hamas Okay well I'm sorry Can we move on from it and talk about the environment Because of the suffering that's been committed Again I saw a film last night You're now wanting to talk about it more When you want to move this on to the environment Because it's unsatisfactory the things you've said Okay let's both be unsatisfied And talk about green issues Why don't you like the term net zero You think it's flawed You think it's lost popularity.

21:31You think perhaps that people are turning against the environmental cause because of the lingo. Yeah, I don't know. I'm just a bit peed off about the things you've said. I mean, I think it's an incredible position to take. The human suffering is off the scale in Palestine. It really is. I agree with you about the human suffering on both sides. I find you particularly one-sided about this. It's not on both sides. It is on both sides if you are the Bebas family whose children were killed. It is on both sides if you're sitting in a kibbutz and you have your daughter murdered, raped and murdered in front of you.

22:10I said the scale of suffering. I said the scale of suffering is off the charts. There's suffering on all sides, Dale. 100 to 1, at least. The ratio of deaths and suffering is 100 to 1. Okay. Can we talk about green issues? Because that's what you're here to talk about. I think you've completely put me out of the mood to talk about green issues. What, you can't talk about green issues? Because I've challenged you on your view. No, because of the things you're saying. It's the most hideous propaganda. Right. I think that you're perpetuating propaganda. You think that I'm perpetuating propaganda.

22:38Can we, because we're grown adults, and I do want to hear what you've got to say about green issues. I'm also a human being, and I'm affected by what's happening in Gaza. And I'm affected by what you've said about it. I am affected because I'm a human being. I also have a great many Jewish friends and colleagues who feel that they have been discriminated against in this country and beyond because of people holding very pro-Palestinian views. Now, I appreciate that there isn't necessarily a correlation between people who support Benjamin Netanyahu and just being Jewish and that sometimes support for Israel and being Jewish is conflated.

23:18But I'm merely representing a different proposition here to the one that you adopt. I'm allowed to do that. It's a free country. And I'm allowed to be inflamed by what you've said. Yes, I'm inflamed by what you've said. That's crazy. That's probably crazy. OK, well, maybe. On green issues, let me just read out an email from a chap who contacted us, who is a regular listener to The Daily Tea, and I'd like you to see whether you think you agree with this. Fuel poverty is being exacerbated and our economy is being decimated at the cost of many trillioners of pounds. as we outsource industry to countries which are building a record number of coal-fired power stations.

23:58That could be a standard Telegraph view, that although our readers want to do their best by the environment, they want to recycle, they believe that climate change exists, they're worried about the execution of this. They're worried that actually some of these measures are making the poor poorer and indeed colder. Is that a fair argument to mount? Well, you asked me first if I agreed with his statement, and I don't. The facts are wrong. Okay. And then it got a bit long when you can't forget. Do you know what? I'm going to leave because I'm not having this discussion. I'm sorry. What? I'm just not.

24:33You're joking. Why? Because I'm just offended. Why are you offended? I can't engage in a positive conversation about net zero and stuff like that because of what you've said, your attitude, your denial of the facts, the human rights abuses. It's just outstanding to me. Astounding, I mean. I'm sorry. Okay. No disrespect, but I'm leaving. Okay, no disrespect. Then that is the Sunday showdown with Dale Vince over, ladies and gentlemen, because clearly robust debate is not possible. Just for the record, I was going to ask about Net Zero. I was going to ask about Ed Miliband. I was going to ask about donating to the Labour Party.

25:10I was going to ask about donating to the Greens. I was going to ask about Mr Vince's green gas from grass project. I was going to ask about the 100 % renewable energy grids. I was going to ask about the 100 % plant-based food system. But I can't ask about any of that because unfortunately we have not disagreed agreeably. And Dale Vince has now left the studio. So what we will do is we'll find somebody who campaigns on the environment to answer some of the questions I have about net zero and the green agenda. But we'll be back tomorrow, 5pm.

26:11Hi, it's Kat and Nat, and this episode is sponsored by Michael's, your destination for all things birthday parties. With seven kids between us, we're always planning a celebration. Summer is no exception. With prices starting at just 99 cents, Michael's Party Shop has over 4 ,500 party supplies across more than 60 themes for every age and every celebration. Whether your kids are into bluey, rodeos, soccer, rainbows, or something totally different, you'll find everything you need in one place. Plus, you can get a free helium inflation on select balloon styles. Shop online, pick up in-store, or get same-day delivery.

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