The Tories fight for their political lives

0:02The Telegraph

0:10Conservative values, opportunity, aspiration, optimism. We are the party of hope. We are the party of the future. We can and we will. That's Shadow Chancellor Mel Stride as the Tories fight for their political lives at the conference in Manchester. We speak to Mel Stride and ask him, is he really comfortable with the direction that his party is taking? We've also spoken with Chris Philp, the Shadow Home Secretary, about borders and with Katie Lam, who is tipped as a future leader of the party. Welcome to The Daily Tea, live from the Tory party conference in Manchester with me, Camilla Tomini. And me, Tim Stanley.

0:58Tim, have you been paying attention? What is the slogan of this party conference in Manchester for the Tories? Is this Renew Britain or was that last week? That was last week. Is this Borders and the Economy? This is... No, I need it precisely, please. You need the precise words. No, I've not been paying attention. Stronger Economy, Stronger Borders. Very good. I've got the brochure in my hands here, wonderful photographs of some Shadow Cabinet ministers, but here's the second test for you. Who's missing? That requires a level of knowledge about the Shadow Cabinet that most human beings don't possess.

1:29Come on, it's obvious. But I can't see Mel Stride there. No, but who else who's significant when it comes to this woman? Well, he's very, very short, so he might just be up to Kemi's knee and not in the photo, but it could be Rob Jenrick. It could be Robert Jenrick, who we have got an exclusive interview with tomorrow for tomorrow's Daily Tea. I just think it's significant that he's been airbrushed out of here. Do you think he was there, and like Stalin, they've removed him from the back? I think probably he wasn't there at all. He wasn't there at all. We'll ask Mel why he's not in it either in just a moment.

1:59But what do you think the vibe of this conference is? Because it feels like they are fighting for their political lives, doesn't it? Does a corpse have a vibe? That is cruel. But when I came in this morning and they made me strip down to my underwear to get through security, I did say to someone, you really don't need to do this. This is not a major target for anyone. No. I went to Mel Stride's speech. The hall was maybe half filled. I actually arrived 20 minutes early because in previous years you had to queue, and this year you did not. To be fair, he had a bad slot. He had a bad slot. A lot of people will have come up on a Monday.

2:33More people are arriving now. But the speech, as much as the content was meaty and conservative, felt a bit like sitting in a cinema on a wet afternoon. Yes. No-one there. Everyone's meant to be in work, and it was just a bit lacklustre. Nonetheless, the Tories that one speaks to off the record, because on the record they say this is the greatest conference in the history of man. Yes. Off the record they all say we know this. We know we are where we are. We know we're in opposition right now. This is the first proper conference after the reform bounce. Yes. A lot of our people have left and joined reform.

3:11Yes. Including some awkward people who actually made life in the party difficult. So actually they're quite glad to see them go. I think the Tories have been reduced to their affable core. It's interesting as well that Dame Andrea Jenkins keeps on getting sort of name-checked here, like, well, we're not going to wear spangles and sequins and sing songs. They don't use her name. They describe her. But this is their trick. They don't say Nigel Farage. Whereas Labour kept saying reform and Nigel Farage. From the speeches I've attended thus far, I've noticed it's been populists they're referred to.

3:41It's just a catch-all term. They don't actually want to promote the opposition. Well, we did speak about this. Don't use the F word. I mean, it completely overshadowed everything in Liverpool for Labour, so why repeat the same mistake? But isn't it interesting, the kind of tone here? The tone is, particularly with the stronger economy, stronger borders, is we're serious. We are very serious-minded, competent people who can be trusted because reform, they're all jokers, they're untried, they're untested, so stick with us. But the trouble is with serious politics is, unfortunately, Tim, it's not very sexy.

4:16It is, of course. It's not very sexy to be saying we've got to pay down the deficit and the debt. We don't know if we can give you tax cuts because the country's in dire financial straits. I think it could have been sexier if they put Rob Jenrick on the front of that. I agree. He's a small man, but he's very good looking. But what is it they're going for here? Remember Labour last week talked about reform and farage directly, but it was all about patriotism and the rise of the far right. Here they're talking about them indirectly, but their message is the credibility question is around economics.

4:50And again from the people we've spoken to off the record, what they're saying is we don't expect people to come away from this conference and there to be a 20-point leap in the polls and they want to say I'm voting Conservative. But they want a sense of definition to come out. What is it the Conservatives have decided about? Yes. And how does that contrast to reform? So on immigration you can't out-compete reform on immigration. No. Their policies look a lot like them. They say they are better costed, but they're not really, as I say, trying to win on that. They're trying to put the issue to one side and say we've listened.

5:22But it's on the economy. That's where they're saying, actually, reform is a socialist party now. Which is a silly criticism. That doesn't wash in the same way that Starmer accusing Farage of not loving Britain. It doesn't wash. Nobody thinks reform are a socialist party, even though they do want to scrap the two-child benefit cap and they want to spend oodles of our money. And nationalised steel and things like that. But they might think, in the same way that Labour's going with they are chaos in a cultural sense, you're letting the far-right wolf through the door, this lot are saying they are chaotic in the economic sense.

5:57Yes. That whether you like the policies or not, we all suspect we can't afford it. And in three or four years' time, the chief issue in this country is probably not going to be the boats. No. Fingers crossed that will have been resolved. This was the David Davis argument last week. It's going to be the economy, stupid. The issue is going to be the economy. And at that point, this lot want you to come away from this conference thinking, well, they don't like welfare and they will cut spending. Yes. We'll get on to Kemi in a moment, who we both had a drink with last night as part of a wider group of sort of political editors and apparent big cheeses.

6:26But what I think is interesting about the Lord Wolfson study into whether or not they should leave the ECHR and how persuasive that has proven to be is that comparatively, If you think about all of the infighting that's gone on in reform since they set up shop, and you think about this lot, and I appreciate they're saying one thing publicly and another thing privately perhaps about the leader, which we'll get on to. But when they got Lord Walson to kind of look into the detail of the immigration plan, it was to persuade themselves, really. It was an effort to get everybody finally singing from the same hymn sheet.

6:59I did the interview with her on GB News where I said, if you don't sign up to the ECHR departure plan, what's going to happen to you? Are you going to be ejected from the party? She said, no, I'm not ejecting anyone from the party, but they won't stand as a Tory at the next general election. And I thought, goodness me, that's a sea change, because previously they'd want to accommodate all of the different caucuses, the one-nationers, the pro-Europeans and all the rest of it. So it would be interesting, wouldn't it, by the time the next general election comes round, if this lot of all people, these people who fight like rats in a sack, are actually all together on the issues that they're going to put in the manifesto.

7:35Conversely, you might see more fractures in reform, actually, not least when you've got to align Farage with Kruger, with figures like Tim Montgomery. So that's been one takeaway. But do we think Kemi's popular here? Again, is this, I come back to, is this about them being reduced to this affable core? Yeah. There are just so few MPs. There's less room for disagreement. And some of the real difficult people, sort of the Jake Berries, Danny, the really right-wing people, have left. That said, I'm starting to wonder if Kemi was smarter than I thought by pursuing this strategy of we're going to have a review.

8:10Maybe counterfactually, if she had just been elected and there and then said, we're going to leave the ECHR, she might have faced a big rebellion. But to actually give it a year to thrash it out behind the doors so that when they finally come out with it, some people are just reconciled to it. And also they can see how badly they're doing in the polls now compared to when she was elected. Back then they were second in the polls. Now they're third or fourth. There's a case of saying she took some of the steam out of the issue and it might have been a smarter approach than I thought. Yes, she hasn't kind of pushed her own ideology onto others.

8:43She's let people come to their own conclusions. Just on the leader, I mean, it depends who you speak to here, doesn't it? Some people absolutely love her. Some people are talking about whether she's going to go in November or May, depending on, I suppose, the local elections next year and how bad they are for the Conservatives. Can I just state now for the record, Tim, that I think the notion of replacing this leader now is potentially more politically suicidal than Rishi Sunak leaving the D-Day commemorations early last year. It would be such a monumentally stupid thing to do. But do you disagree?

9:17Well, what does the polling say about alternative leaders? It doesn't make any difference. It doesn't make any difference or they could fare worse. Because within Westminster and Conservative circles, we all know who Rob Jenrick is. Does the rest of the world know? No. And we might be impressed by him, and I personally am, but will it make a big difference to the average voter? I'm not sure that it will. I generally hear good things about her. They're not effusive, but they're more she's doing her best. Yeah. And what more could you expect? and also she is better privately, more convincing and compelling in private than she is on the national stage and maybe it takes time to get that on a national stage.

10:01I think she needs to do more of the charm offending, to be honest. I think she needs to just kind of raise her, almost like her sociability and her ability to talk fully about herself, who she is, what she believes, what she stands for. Do you know what? Surprise us. Talk to us as a mum, talk to us as a black woman, talk to us as a wife as well as a politician. Which she's been reluctant to do because part of Kemi's philosophy is I don't believe in identity politics. I know, which is annoying because we need to know her identity. She's hoist by her own batard there. She very much is. Also, by the way, this whole under new leadership thing, it's kind of working because even I was thinking in the interview, how many times am I going to go on about how you messed everything up?

10:41Like the more time there is between the last administration and the new one. the easier life becomes for her. And in a way, she's a clean skin. The other problem with Jenrick, of course, is he's associated, because he was immigration minister, with immigration shooting up. She kind of isn't. He did resign over it. He did resign over it, although some people think Boris pushed him out, but that's another story. So she's there, and I think there is now some blue water between the mistakes of the past and the Tories' hopes for the future. Yeah, yeah. And I want to add on a personal note, I like these people.

11:13Yes. I feel quite comfortable here. Well, that's because you're getting fanboyed and girled every five minutes. That is very true. Tim, Tim, Tim. I did wonder who in this country still listens to Radio 4, and it's the Conservative Party conference. Irony of ironies. Can we agree that I've got the reform crowd and you've got the Tory crowd? You have, you have. And I've been to some conferences this year, and I just thought I was lucky to get away and not be lynched. I feel lucky to be standing with you and spend so much time with you that makes so many of the delegates here jealous. You are adored by the reform lot.

11:42Well, I know. They were about ready to hoist you on their shoulders and carry you aloft through the conference hall. We could all do that. Shall we introduce some of the brilliant interviews that we've done? So you were in the Mel Stride speech, and we caught up with him afterwards. Shadow Chancellor Mel Stride, you strode off the stage with a barnstorming speech there. But what I want to know is this. Thank you for joining us again on The Daily Tea. Where are you? I'm looking at the conference brochure. Where's Mel Stride's little face in this collection of Tories on the front of this brochure?

12:11Well, he is absent, Camilla, that is true. Were you taking the picture? No, things aren't that desperate yet. I've not had to become the house photographer. But I'll tell you where I was when that photograph was taken. I was in America, in Nashville. And do you know who I was with? No, who? Arthur Laffer, the great economist. The Laffer curve. Who wants to get taxes down, because I want to get taxes down. So I was spending time talking to Arthur about how we should best do that. Quite a nice answer. Let's have a look at your actual central policy announcements in this. Look, I've made some notes here.

12:42Mel, you'll be impressed. You've announced a first jobs bonus, so you're saying that the first£5 ,000 anyone earns is going to not have any NI taken out of it. Is that right? No, it's slightly different to that. So it is up to the first£5 ,000 of national insurance that is paid or would have been paid would instead go into a savings account, an ISA or similar, to be used as part of a deposit against a future home purchase. So if you've got two people, that could be up to£10 ,000. house. And it's really reflecting the fact that we want to reach out with a big, bold offer to younger generations, because they are the people that have typically missed out on getting on the housing ladder, and of course, other people that are getting those first jobs.

13:22That's what was the confusion for me was, I was thinking, is this like reforms policy of lifting people out of tax completely for the first 20 grand they earn? But you're saying about the NI contributions get stored up, and you can have 10 grand for a couple. Correct. Now, interestingly, you should mention reform and the personal allowance going up to 20 ,000. My intervention here costs about 2.8 billion and I've demonstrated 47 billion in savings overall. Reform taking everybody out of tax up to 20 ,000, the IFS said it's about 80 billion, which is about half what we spend on the National Health Service with its 1.5 million employees and not an inkling as to where on earth they're going to find all that money.

14:01And that's the difference between us. But then it begs the question, hang on though Mel, it begs the question because you want to abolish business rates for high street retailers and pubs. That's expensive. £4 billion in total. £4? £4 billion, yeah. OK, so that's costed into the Mel Plan. Yeah, that's costed into the Mel Plan. That's a quarter of a million businesses that will come out of business rates. We think that small businesses matter. We are the party of business. We are back on the pitch when it comes to businesses. And you know what? High streets really matter in another way. They are the fabric of local communities.

14:32where they decay, local communities decay, and we are going to stand right behind them and we make taxes down and off their backs. But then we'll bring Tim in with this segue question. You're saying that no-one can claim benefits if they're not British citizens. Which sounds a bit like a reform policy. Well, I've no doubt there will be overlaps between all the parties and what they're saying on various things, but we're very clear. But when reform rolled that out, everyone said, come on, that can't possibly save that enough money. No, I'll tell you what the difference was, that reform assumed that they could apply that policy to EU nationals, which by dint of the treaty arrangements we have, you can't.

15:08Now, we've recognised that, and so we haven't assumed that in our figures. And that's another classic example of what reform do. They didn't think it through. They came out with this particular policy and then had to row back on it because EU nationals, of course, cannot fall within that particular policy decision. So that's a key distinction between us. You're also going to cut international development aid down to, what, 0.1 %? Correct. It's almost no point giving any money away, is that that's so small. Are you comfortable with Britain cutting down its global contributions? Are you really going to sniff at£3 billion?

15:41I think that's quite a lot of money, and I think most people listening to this would think it was quite a lot of money. Look, for Britain to hold its head high, be out there as a bulwark for our values and pushing global security and all the things we want to do, we've got to have a strong economy at home. And the only way we can do that is firstly get on top of our debt and the deficit, which is leading us on a totally unsustainable trajectory at the moment. And that's why I set out that the majority of those savings will go on just that. But equally, we have got to think about every single area of saving.

16:13And at the moment, where we stand as an economy, we're heading for a bad place. And if somebody doesn't come along like us and start telling the truth about that and what we need to do to fix it, we'll end up in that bad place. Now, Mel, you ran for the leadership last year as a centrist, moderate, thoughtful candidate. There was a touch of momentum at one point. We were all very excited about it. You said at the time that it would be a mistake to leave the ECHR. Have you changed your mind? I said at the time actually something different, Tim, which was that we should not go back to the parliamentary party after the leadership contest with a fait accompli.

16:50that none of the candidates should stand on a platform where they were saying, we are going to leave. Because I think that would have caused division, particularly within the parliamentary party. So, in fact, Kemi has done exactly what I was saying should have been done. Because you're now telling people that if you don't agree with the policy, don't expect to be a Conservative candidate at the next election. So, well, that applies to many different policies under those circumstances. But the point that I'm making, Tim, is that during the election campaign for the leadership, I was very clear that we needed to think about these things and involve people in that discussion.

17:20And that's precisely what she's done with Lord Wolfson's work. And she's brought it to the Shadow Cabinet and they have signed off on that and that's now our position. And that's the thoughtful and sensible way to have done it. And it's perfectly in line with what I was saying during the leadership contest. In fact, Kemi and I were saying identical things when we were standing here. So were you at that time in favour of leaving the ECHR? I had an open mind. I had a genuinely open mind. The issue was the way in which the party went about it. I think it's really important because I think there were some people who just thought, do you know what, of course we can step away from this and there are no consequences and what's the problem?

17:55Whereas when you think about things like Northern Ireland, the Goods-Fighting Agreement, all those kind of issues, you have got to have answers to those questions. And so I think it was really important that Lord Walsham did the work that he did. It was a very thorough piece of work. I had a long chat with him about it once he'd completed that, just the two of us discussing it and so on. And I ended up feeling that that is the right decision to take. So we are at one on that. And what an achievement, actually, for Kemi Badeknot to have taken the Conservative Party in one piece to that point and that conclusion.

18:25I think that shows leadership. That's partly because a lot of people have left it by this point. Well, I was going to say... There are some pieces that are no longer in the box. Tim, it was never going to be a slam dunk, was it? I mean, you could easily have seen how it could have kicked off into something very difficult. And I think we've landed up in a sensible, thoughtful space and that she's led us there. But you did say it was populist politics back when you ran as leader. So what's changed? It's still a populist policy. It's my same argument. I think when I think of populism, I think of people throwing stuff out there without too much thought, unlike what Kimmy has done with this decision, because that's what populists think people want to hear.

19:04We've talked about tax and the personal allowance going up to£20 ,000, another example of something that hasn't been thought through, but Nigel Farage thought that's what people want to hear, so I will say it. The two-child benefit cap appears to be one of those policies that sort of slipped out during an interview because they thought that's what people might want to hear and so on. And that's not the way to develop serious policy, which is what the Conservative Party is doing. I'm worried, though, that you're developing serious policies that no one wants to vote for. So, for instance, you were saying in your speech about debt and you didn't want to saddle future generations with debt, and I think that's admirable.

19:38But it's not a great sell, is it? If you're going to save 50 billion quid, Tory voters particularly will want tax cuts. So we also talked about tax cuts. So the two things we talked about, the first job bonus is a tax cut for younger people. The business rate abolition for those businesses in the highest rate is a tax cut. So we are doing those things. What we're demonstrating is there has to be a balance. The majority of those savings, though, will go to bringing down the debt. We've got to have a grown-up conversation with the public now about the state of our finances and where we're heading.

20:12And anybody who doesn't do that shouldn't be trusted with the keys to the Treasury. Yeah. I guess on the populism point, it feels a bit like the Tories are getting to be populist while trying to say that they're not doing it in a populist way. I think you might be saying that, Tim, because we're addressing the same kind of issues that are salient. And, of course, all parties have opinions on... But it's still cutting... I mean, it sounds like I'm carrying a flag here for Rwanda or something, or the third world. But cutting foreign aid, for instance, to 0.1%, a lot of wet liberal Tory voters are going to think, this was the party that once raised it to 0.7%, and now it's cutting it.

20:48Isn't it just jumping on a right-wing bandwagon while at the same time saying, but we hate bandwagons? No, no, it's recognising that if you're going to be a grown-up on the economy, you have to recognise the size of the debt. If we want to play our role in the world, we have to have a strong economy back home and some things have to give. We cannot afford spiralling welfare bills. We cannot afford employing tens and tens of thousands of additional civil servants. We've made statements on that. We want to get it back to the 2016 level. And similarly, as things stand at the moment, when it comes to foreign aid, I think the right balance is we're not going to spend nothing on it.

21:25Of course not. It'll be several billion pounds. But nonetheless, we need to strengthen our economy. And I think people that don't get that just don't get what's happening in the economy at the moment and where it could end up. I think that's the reality. And if people don't sign up to your economic plan, are you going to be suggesting the same as Kemi Badenok? I mean, you've got to be all in. If you're going to run as a Tory at the next general election, you've got to buy into this. You've got to buy into what's happening with immigration under the Tories proposed. Because we've had so much division in your party over these key issues, haven't we?

21:56What to do about the ECHR. It was previously what to do about our relationship with the European Union. Have we now settled these scores? You're not having infighting between the left and right of the party? No, I'm not saying there won't be different opinions on things. Of course there are in all parties. But it seems to me that Kemi has taken us to a point on the ECHR where the Shadow Cabinet, myself included, have signed off on that. And I think actually that's a major achievement. Now, as to the point about future general elections and what people should be expected to sign up to, we will stand on a manifesto.

22:26And, of course, anybody who presents themselves as a Conservative candidate will be expected to sign up to everything in the manifesto. And that's just the normal course of political events, yeah. You had a crack at Liz Truss's infamous budget in her speech because you wanted to find yourself as someone who will say how he's going to afford what he wants to do. Will the point be reached? Have we reached that point when Liz should be expelled from the party? I'm not going to get into any of those kind of issues. They're not matters for me, and I'm not going to get drawn on that. Ingenious, though, the question is.

22:54but on the on the uh well that's why you do what you do isn't it tim you see you're a genius at it you say no when it comes to the mini budget i was very clear at the time because i was the chair of the treasury select committee and in fact if you go and look at a replay of quasi sitting down afterwards i was about the first person up and the only person on my side to stand up and say i thought this was a colossal mistake yeah and i held that position ever since i've always been uh consistent i gave a speech to the royal society of arts about three months ago in which i said this was a big mistake, but I said something else.

23:26This party, my party, will never, ever do that again. And what you've seen here in Manchester today is a clear down payment on that statement. So I have talked about bringing down spending. That's not an easy thing to do, but I've gone right out there and taken it head on. And I think people should take confidence in that. Mel Stride, Shadow Chancellor, thank you very much for your time on The Daily Tea as ever. Great pleasure. Lovely to be here. So Camilla, there Mel Stride talked about accepting the ECHR plan, but we need to know something about the detail and how it's all going to work out and what it's going to cost.

24:00And for that, we've spoken to Shadow Home Secretary Chris Philp after the break.

24:16We're delighted to be joined by Shadow Home Secretary Chris Philp. Chris, can you tell us, without hesitation or repetition, what now is the Tory policy on immigration? Our plan is to come out of the ECHR. Our plan is to clamp down on illegal immigration extremely hard by removing 150 ,000 people a year with no right to be here. That will include removing every single illegal immigrant within a week of arrival, removing all foreign criminals and working through the probably over a million people who are here illegally. That will require coming out of the ECHR, as I said, but it'll also mean dismantling the entire legal architecture that has built up over recent years, which has made controlling our borders difficult.

25:01For example, by abolishing the Immigration Tribunal, where many judges used to be open borders activists. It means abolishing judicial review of most immigration matters, and it means getting rid of immigration legal aid. So this endless gravy train of lawyers who advise illegal immigrants and foreign criminals how to game the system will end too. And what will be the cost of all of this? Because there might be savings in the long run, but it's expensive to remove people to do all this sort of thing, isn't it? Well, we're currently spending nearly£5 billion a year on the asylum system. Last year, there were more asylum claims,£111 ,000, than any year in this country's history.

25:38So you haven't got to get illegal immigration down by much before you start saving billions and billions. we're going to double the budget for removals force. We're going to increase it from 800 million up to 1.6 billion. And we believe doubling resources combined with getting rid of all the legal nonsense will enable us to increase removals by a factor of five, up to 150 ,000 a year. And can I ask, where do you get the figure of 150 ,000 from? Is that people who we know about? Because presumably there is a large shadow economy of people we don't know about. So where does that figure come from and how are you going to tackle those people who we just don't know who they are or where they are?

26:16Yeah, well, there are people we know about already, people who have entered the country illegally. And under this Labour government, illegal channel crossings have been the highest ever. Then you've got foreign criminals we know about as well. They should all be removed. Then there are people who are otherwise here illegally. Now, we don't know who all of those people are. Estimates suggest there are over a million of them. So we would do illegal working visits. We'd use facial recognition technology as well to identify people who are here illegally. We'd ask the police to always check immigration status when they encounter people they are arresting or dealing with on the streets.

26:50And by doing that, we will, over time, identify and then remove some of those million people here illegally. And if we proceed at the rate of 150 ,000 a year, that means over the lifetime of a parliament, five years, that'll be three quarters of a million people. So my message from this conference is we are not messing around with illegal immigration anymore. We're going to have zero tolerance and we have set out plans in detail about how we're going to do that. And we're the only party to set out plans like this, properly thought out, credible and in detail. Can I ask where you're going to deport the people to?

27:24Yes, back to their country of origin, if safe or possible. A safe third place like Rwanda, if not. and we're going to make sure more countries take back their own nationals by using so-called visa sanctions. So a particular country won't take their citizens back. We'll simply stop issuing visas for citizens to come in the other direction. Of course, we in the UK take back our UK citizens. If someone is illegally in Australia or they commit a crime in Australia, of course we take them back. Other countries should do that. And if they don't, visa sanctions and the withdrawal of overseas aid. But if there are any places we really can't return someone to, that is why you need a safe country like Rwanda.

28:00Interestingly, the Trump administration in the US are, as we speak, using Rwanda and I think some other places as well to send people back to where they can't return to the country of origin. And in fact, I discussed this whole thing with Vice President J.D. Vance just a few weeks ago in August and the approach of the Trump administration to tackling illegal immigration over their Mexican border, which is a 3 ,000-mile land border, has in just the last six months been very, very successful. And they have reduced illegal migration across that border by about 80 or 90%. So has Trump been the inspiration for this policy then?

28:33Well, I think in part he's shown that these kind of policies can work and the success on the Mexican border is evidence of that. Other people have done it as well. Australia about 13 years ago in their operation Sovereign Borders by immediately removing illegal immigrants to a little island called Nauru, completely stopped the crossings by boat coming towards Australia. and they stopped those crossings in just a few months because of the deterrent effect. And that's why it is so bad that Keir Starmer cancelled the Rwanda deterrent, which would have worked in a very similar way. He cancelled it after the election and just a few days before that first flight was due to take off.

29:12And what's happened since? Illegal immigration has skyrocketed and this year so far has been the worst in history for illegal immigrants crossing the Channel. Some listening to this and watching this on YouTube will think to themselves, well, OK, there's some tough talk finally from the Tories on immigration. Got you on the front of this conference, both brochure. Chris, looking tough, if I may say. Thank you very much. Look at that pose. I take that as a compliment. You've seen this, Tim. Look at him. He's a man. They didn't say say cheese. No. They said look tough. Look tough. So that's great, but people will be thinking to themselves, we've heard this all before from the Tories.

29:44They talked about tens of thousands when it came to legal immigration. They talked about stopping the boats. They didn't deliver on either. and actually we much prefer Nigel Farage's rhetoric on this because we actually believe in his ability to bring down immigration, both legal and illegal. Yeah, so look, two points. Firstly, the last government made some, I'll be honest, made some really serious mistakes here. Immigration was far too high. The Rwanda scheme didn't start before the election, partly because of legal challenges. And that was all a mistake, right? And we just are very honest in acknowledging and admitting that was a mistake.

30:17We have listened. We have learnt. we've got new leadership and we've got a new approach. And the plan we set out is detailed, it's credible. The ECHR document runs to 200 pages. Our borders plan I was talking through a minute ago is detailed and credible. And while Nigel Farage has some great slogans, you know, dreamt up after a few pints in a pub written on the back of a fag packet, you know, I don't think they're detailed or credible. And that really is the difference between us and reform. Our plans are detailed and credible. They've got good slogans, but they don't have the detail. And we have listened and we have learned and we do know and I know the last government got this wrong.

30:53It sounds as though you are reviving the Rwanda plan. Yes, essentially yes. OK. Part of the problem last time was human rights claims to stop people from being deported. Only four volunteers ended up being sent. But you're going to fix that by changing the law. But the other problem was Tory MPs didn't want to do it. They didn't want to change the law in particular on the ECHR. Is the Tory party at the next election going to look very different in its philosophy, and will it be united? Well, it's different already. So one of the reasons, as you say, the Rwanda scheme was delayed in the courts was because of the ECHR.

31:25It's one of the reasons we need to come out of it. There were also terrible cases where foreign paedophiles couldn't be returned to their country of origin because apparently their human rights were more important than the rights of children here to be protected. That's why we're coming out of the ECHR, and David Wilson's report really confirms that. On your question about are we united, I mean, you've seen the reaction from Conservative MPs in the last 24 to 48 hours after the ECHR announcement. You know, no one's resigned. No one, as far as I'm aware, has publicly criticised our stance on the ECHR.

31:55So we did. And if you think about it. Well, Tobias Elwood, who's a former Tory MP, has written a piece for The Telegraph saying this is nonsense. Well, look, we're talking about current Tory MPs. He should read the Wilson report. Current Tory MPs are united behind this. And if we'd have done this even as recently as six months ago, I don't honestly think that would have been the case. But, you know, public opinion is changing. Our parliamentary opinion is changing. We can see the facts in front of us. You know, we tried to fix the border problem in the ECHR in government. It didn't work. The Labour government now is trying its little gimmicks while inside the ECHR.

32:25That isn't working either. The evidence of our eyes is that we can't control our borders while in the ECHR. And the Conservative Party, the parliamentary Conservative Party, MPs, are united behind this in a way that, being honest, We wouldn't have been united even six months ago, certainly not a year and a half ago. But we are united now because we have changed as a party and our stance on this and the fact we are united behind it, I think is evidence of that really quite profound and significant change. Chris Philp, Shadow Home Secretary, thank you very much indeed for joining us on The Daily Tea.

32:55A pleasure, as always, to be here, Camilla. Thank you. Fighting tour from Chris Philp there, but is the very idea of a younger person voting Conservative, let alone entering politics as a Conservative, just ridiculous now? Well, we spoke to Katie Lamb, a new MP who is 34 and tipped as a potential future leader. Katie Lamb, Tory MP for the Weald of Kent, with your fellow Kent constituent here, Tim Stanley. Lovely to see you at conference. Very nice to see you. You're being tipped as a rising star of this party and you've been tipped for greatness in the future. Well, I think that there's a... I studied classics at university, and there's a saying, I think it's in Aeschylus, you know, those whom the gods would destroy, they first call promising.

33:42And so there is certainly a bit of... The rising star moniker is not maybe one that I would choose for myself, but we are where we are. Oh, look, you're quite new to the party. We're at conference. It's quite quiet. It's difficult. You're in opposition. Pressure on Kemi Badenock. Reports, will she go in November? Will she go in May? which is all quite unhelpful. You're quite close to Robert Jenner. Is he waiting in the wings? What's your general analysis of the leadership situation as it stands? Well, I think you're right to say that it is very unhelpful. I don't think that any of that discussion helps us do the fundamental, very difficult thing that we have to do, which is rebuild the party in order to rebuild trust with the electorate.

34:20I mean, we're only, what, a year and change from the greatest political defeat in modern British history. for most people obviously this is hard for us to understand for most people who aren't obsessed with politics you know the general election only happened kind of five minutes ago and so it's going to take some time some consistency and some humility to build that relationship with the public i think what kemi's doing is excellent i think the announcements that we've seen over the past few days have absolutely been the right ones but it's everybody is going to need to to use her own words, I think, from the weekend, hold their nerve and work hard.

34:54And I think all of the political gossip just harms us in doing that. Could things actually get worse for the Tories? I think you should always have the humility that no political party has a good given right to exist. So things could always get worse because, you know, the floor is nothing. Because this conference is lighter attended, it feels, than last year. I think that's right. But I also, this is our first true opposition conference, planned in opposition. You know, there's no leadership contest. So I think anybody who is expecting it to feel like conference of the last 15 years, I don't think that that's a sort of realistic expectation.

35:31But I think the atmosphere here is really good. And I think that lots of people here are really dedicated to rebuilding the party. One peculiar thing is that hanging in the foyer are Margaret Thatcher's clothes. Yes. Now, you have been quoted in the past as pointing out that you were born after she left office. Am I correct in my mass there, which makes you very young, embarrassingly young? Should the party be operating like a sarcophagus? Should it be digging up a dead lady's clothes and putting them on display? It's a bit odd, isn't it? Well, I think it's the 100th anniversary of her birth, isn't it?

36:04So it's sort of a special year. And I think a key part of being a conservative and of conservatism is taking the best of the past and moving forward into the future. Now, what we have to be careful not to do is to make it seem like we haven't had any new ideas since 1990. Yeah, or that no one has been as exciting or definitional. I mean, who since has done for the Tories what Thatcher did for the Tories? I think there's also, you know, she's particularly iconic. People seem to have quite an emotional relationship with her. But, you know, she was a once-in-a-generation genius, and I think that it's totally fine to acknowledge and to celebrate that.

36:38you just have to do it in a way that you're sort of going to the future through the past rather than just that you're obsessed with the past. How do the Conservatives convince young people to vote for them and not for Nigel Farage who as you know has got a huge social media following. He's growing in popularity particularly with young men. Well my view on this is always that there are some situational differences but the young people vote like all people. They want, I think, particularly younger people want an aspirational, ambitious government. They want a context in which they can succeed, in which they can make money and start a family and own a home.

37:16And I think that a lot of the, you'll have seen the national insurance policy that the shadow chancellor announced. I think lots of what we are going to have to do is convince a lot of people, some of them young and lots of them not that young, that the Conservatives have a plan for the economy. The UK economy has been in a pretty tough spot for quite a while and it will need to be dug out of that. And I believe, obviously, that we're the party to do that. Can we channel our inner Andrew Lloyd Webber now? Oh, yes, please. I'm not singing. Damn. Well, we know you've written, is it five musicals?

37:54Yes, yeah. Now, if there was a kind of headline song for Conservative Party Conference 2025, the musical. And you can't say all by myself. No. What would the theme be? Oh, my God, it's a great question. I think it would be, you know, your kind of classic arc in drama, and I think the point that we're at is catharsis. I'd like to think that this is the conference where we sort of put to bed what has been, acknowledge the things that have failed. In classical drama, that usually involves people getting stabbed to death off stage. Catharsis, I mean, that's not a good place to be. No, I think that there is a reckoning in a good way with what didn't work when we were in government.

38:39And I think that the announcement about the ECHR is a symptom of that. The announcement about the Climate Change Act is a symptom of that. And I think we have to go through that process in order then to move forward into the future and to do that credibly. Writing musicals sounds like a fantastic vocation. Why on earth would you give up something like that to become a Tory MP? Well, I actually always wrote alongside... I worked in finance for most of my career and then I was an advisor in government for a bit and I always wrote alongside that and they're just different parts of my brain. But the reason I want to do politics at all is because I think it's an exceptionally fulfilling thing to do with your life.

39:17I'm not cynical about politics. I know lots of people are. But I'm not cynical about politics or about politicians and I love this country and so if there's anything that I can do to help it, then I will. Katie Lamb, thank you very much indeed. Are you sure you don't want to sing for us? Because we have this mic here and you know... Oh my God. I'm joking. What time is it? It's definitely, definitely too early. It's too early. We look forward to seeing you at the karaoke at some point over the coming days. Katie Lamb, thank you very much. Thank you. My pleasure.

39:49So which parties are you going to go to tonight? I am going to our own Telegraph drinks, which you're coming to. Thank you for reminding me. And then it's the GB News party, which I hope to see you at as well. Well, I can't eat because last night I had a disaster. Yes. I had a Chinese meal at six because I thought I had the evening free. And then I got a text to remind me I was having a steak with Michael Gove at eight. That's right. So I ate for two. You had two full dinners yesterday. And my response to you telling me that at midnight was you're a freak. You've brought this on yourself. but you have had a habit in the past of eating too much too quickly yes we once went on a job together and you had two flapjacks very very nice in swift success yeah but then you felt ill for the rest of the journey home remember that and complained about it very noisily we need to do some heavy pluggage and promotion by the way before we go ah tomorrow's a big day for us big day for us in the morning you me and alistair heath the brilliant editor of the sunday telegraph are going to be doing an event here in the Thatcher Theatre at 11.

40:47So if you're here, come and see us. Please come and say hi. Ask a question. There's food. There's cake or something. And I think probably some Telegraph merch. Oh, really? And if you don't see it, then there will be a highlight reel on the Daily Tea. Exactly. Later in the week. And then, as we've already advertised, we have got little pocket-sized Robert Jenrick. We've got to stop. Okay, he's actually quite normally high-tick. I know he is. You started it. He's small but perfectly So that's at 1pm. That's in a building here called Charter 4. So again, if you're in Manchester, come and see us in person.

41:18But we're also going to be live streaming it, Tim. Technology these days. So you can actually watch that on the Telegraph live stream. Go to the Telegraph website. And we're also going to put it out as the podcast at 5pm in case you've actually got a job and things to do during the day and you can't watch a live stream at lunchtime. Can I just say, because we have got a big day tomorrow, could you just avoid eating too much? I will too. We don't want you out of action, OK? No, I'll just have a packet of red assorted crisps. Wonderful. On that bombshell, we'll be back tomorrow at 5pm.