‘They want to kneecap Reform’: Danny Kruger accuses press of unfair treatment

0:06The establishment is out to destroy them and reform is fighting back. The party has reported ITV to the police after its sting. But is the biggest threat to Nigel Farage's party actually from within? We speak to Conservative defector Danny Kruger. There is a just across the board effort right now to hobble reform and to prevent us from delivering. And that's not personal. It's not because they think there's a couple of racists in our lower ranks. It's because they don't want us to do what we want to do for the country. And what we're trying to do for the country, by the way, is not extreme. It is mainstream.

0:41We're delighted to be joined by Danny, who is the Reform MP for East Wiltshire, previously a Tory MP, and is now head of the party's planning for government. Danny, thank you for being with us. Hello, hello, Chaps. I want to begin by asking you about the ITV investigation into reform, which appeared to show people telling racist jokes. These are candidates. People who work for the party apparently delaying dropping candidates. people within the party admitting that there is a misogyny problem, Nigel Farage apparently joking about racism. Before we get into the issue of the ethics of ITV's investigation, how do you respond to the overall impression that reform has become a home for racists and sexists?

1:36Well, thank you. The overall impression I have is not that at all. And I've been in the party for a year. It was already actually a far more professional party than our opponents like to present it. And the fact that I joined it reflected that. I was joining a team that was getting ready for government. And over the last year, there's been really significant improvements in the operation. I mean, it's grown from nothing to a major party with councillors across the country, across the whole of the United Kingdom, proper national party. And in that process, there is going to be growing pains and difficulties.

2:08And every party attracts bad apples. Politics attracts all kinds of strange characters and reform is no different. And obviously it is also true we're an insurgent party. We reflect the deep anger in the country about the state that our nation is in. And we're going to attract people who frankly shouldn't be in politics at all, who behave badly, who say appalling things and they need to be exited. I mean, it's also true that we have done more thorough vetting of our candidates from future MPs right to councillors and to staff than any other party and other parties too without making this a kind of what about contest other parties attract wrongans as well and I was in the Tory party they had their share they have them now you've seen a story this week of an appalling case of a conservative candidate who's it looks like he was uh inviting somebody to to hire a hitman or someone to beat a journalist up so I'm afraid politics gets this I'm very very distressed when I see reform councillors speaking in the way that they did on that programme, but it does not reflect the overall reality of the party, which, as I say, is increasingly professional, well organised behind the scenes.

3:15And it's obviously very frustrating for us that the public is getting this impression, which reflects, I'm afraid to say, a deliberate assault, not on us as individuals, as I always say, what they're trying to stop is a reformed government doing what we say we want to do, hence the extent of the establishment opposition to us. Is it in a police matter, though? So Zia Youssef has now complained to the police about some of the tactics used by the undercover journalists involved in this sting. You're the party that quite often says, please police the streets, not our tweets. Do we really want police officers investigating undercover journalism?

3:49You've cut your losses. You've cut these people free. You've said goodbye. Don't stand for us again. Why don't you just move on? Well, obviously, we are moving on and there's going to be a whole range of announcements in the coming weeks. We're not obsessing about this. But that said, I think it is important, Camilla, to recognise there are proprieties and ethics around journalism. And if they are flagrantly breached, then I think it is the job of politicians to point that out. And when the law has been flagrantly broken, as in this case, an outrageous deception by ITV, including breaking electoral law, I mean, pretending to be canvassers, getting involved in canvassing returns, knocking on doors, as well as all the deception involved in false passports.

4:30And then an actual real, I mean, the reason we are so outraged about it. And, you know, listen, we are not we're not saying that it's wrong to have identified these very bad actors that are in low levels in our party who need to be exited. But the method that they used wasn't about those people. And the real offence is not that they've identified a couple of bad apples. They spent a whole year not just infiltrating HQ, but recording low level activists and councillors. There was a former Marine, Royal Marine, who spent hours talking to a man he thought was another veteran about his experiences at war and the trauma that he had been through.

5:08Talking about that, believing he was talking to somebody who shared those kind of experiences. That guy was a journalist with a camera. Of course, he didn't get this man, this Marine, to say anything outrageous. So that Marine is not featured in the documentary. That is so abusive. It's a total violation. I agree. But maybe it's one for Ofcom rather than the constabulary. I mean, they'll have a public interest defence to their journalism. They'll say, listen, your leader, Nigel Farage, wants to be the next prime minister. It is in the public interest to expose whether there are a number of bad apples in the reform auction.

5:40I do just want to step in and say, just to be specific, because I think some of these accusations against ITV are really interesting from the point of view of a journalist of how do we do our job. One is that a passport was digitally altered, which could be illegal. Sure. Another is that they went canvassing and you're not allowed in this country to pay someone to go canvassing. And I believe that it is alleged that they canvassed a particular area which reform only lost by a couple of hundred votes. So obviously that leaves the question in one's mind of, well, if they were there under false pretenses, how did that actually affect the election?

6:18Danny, on the other hand, I have to say as a journalist, this is how one does a sting. And for us, the test is the public interest test. And what these people have exposed is clearly of great importance because it's telling us how your party operates and the kind of people who are within it. Well, listen, the objective might be legitimate and indeed, in a sense, the outcome. You know, you've identified some bad apples, but the method does have to conform to the law. So you can't break the law in the public interest. And that is why this is a case for the police, not just for Ofcom, but, you know, whoever deals with it, we want to send a very strong signal that, yes, we put our hands up when it turns out that we've got people behaving disgracefully in reform, they need to go.

7:06But we are not going to be passive about the onslaught that we are receiving from the media. Because, as I say, I mean, let's broaden this. What is going on here is a deliberate attempt to kneecap reform because what reform represents for the country, which is substantial change, a restoration of the government of the country to the people. And not to make this into a conspiracy theory, because it's in plain view. I mean, you've got civil servants literally openly thinking, how can they rig the system to ensure that a reformed government can't do what it wants? You've got trade unions building up a strike fund to sabotage the government.

7:40You've got a House of Lords currently doing an inquiry, literally, into how to legislate to ensure that, to safeguard the constitution, as they put it, to ensure that reform can't do what it's going to do. You've got the Labour government literally trying to take money from us that was legitimately and legally given, changing the voting system to hamper our chances. There is a just across the board effort right now to hobble reform and to prevent us from delivering. And that's not personal. It's not because they think there's a couple of racists in our lower ranks. It's because they don't want us to do what we want to do for the country.

8:16And what we're trying to do for the country, by the way, is not extreme it is mainstream what we want to do is to restore government to the people make it work on behalf of in the national interest secure our borders bring down the cost of living uh deliver common sense in policing and other matters and but all of these challenges all of these objectives of ours there are there is a significantly established status quo that wants to stop it and that and this these stings are the sharp end of that so yes let's put our hands up to when things go wrong. Of course, reform makes mistakes. We're moving at great pace and growing at great speed.

8:49When things go wrong, we make mistakes. But what we're seeing here is it goes well beyond the bounds of legitimate journalistic inquiry. It's a political project to try and bring us down, and we're going to fight back. Okay, well, is that project, if it does exist, working? Because, for instance, the latest YouGov poll has Labour on 27%, up 3%, the Conservatives second at 23%, and you're at 22%. So is the public losing its taste for reform? Well, what's happened is that after probably an artificial peak, when reform got to the high 20s, low 30s, because Keir Starmer was so rubbish, and the Tories were spinning around, not saying anything or doing anything, in a sense, normal politics has resumed.

9:38And I'm very pleased with the place that reform is at. We are challenging the main parties for dominance. And what has obviously happened in the last few months is that a more human prime minister has arrived. He's won back some of the people who, Labour supporters who had abandoned Starmer. And to a degree, I mean, I recognise what's happening is that because of this onslaught, the headlines you see about reform are often negative ones rather than us being able to get our arguments over. I mean, we're putting forward so many very strong, very robust policies, by the way, which then get picked up by the other parties.

10:10I mean, here we've seen Labour approve the gas field in the North Sea this week. Reform's been calling for that for years. The Tories caught up with us a bit late. So we are leading the debate on a whole bunch of issues. But yes, often the only thing the media want to report, and guys, you're doing it too, is reporting on, is commenting on these stories. as important as it is to weed out bad eggs in our, if you can weed eggs, in our ranks. These are not the main things. And as I say, the main objective of our opponents is not to stop a couple of racist councillors. It's to stop the reform project, which is...

10:50Sure. I mean, to be fair, Danny, Tim and I have agreed that you do seem to be subject to disproportionate amounts of scrutiny versus, for instance, the Greens. I mean, I'm really looking forward to an undercover expose of some of their conversations, particularly about Israel and Jews behind closed doors. Equally, I wouldn't mind an undercover sting into Restore and the kind of language that they're coming out with. I don't think you need to do it undercover. No, to be fair, it's all on X. It's all on X. But I'm wondering what you do make personally of this slight keminaissance, because you're one of those defectors that didn't say, I'm doing this because I want to kill the Tories.

11:29It wasn't as vindictive, if I can put it like that, as Robert Jenrick and Sweller Braverman. And I know that you thought very long and hard about moving to reform. And now we look at these stats with the Conservatives having some kind of revival. And then look, electoral calculus in your own seat of East Wiltshire, you'd be far more likely to retain your seat as a Conservative, 46%, than a Reformer, 31%. So clearly people might naturally ask, is Danny Kruger having a bit of buyer's remorse? No, I'm not at all. I mean, I always knew it was going to be a tough fight for me personally. And I didn't I didn't switch parties because it would make it easier for me to be reelected.

12:10I recognize that it's quite a traditional conservative area I represent, but I want to unite the right. And I think there's only one way to do that. And that is to bring everybody behind the party that can actually win, that can win support across the country, not just in Wiltshire and the South and Southeast. and we need to be a national, we need a national party that can win in Scotland, in Wales, the north of England and east of England. And that reform is the only party that can do that. And, you know, we talk about the personal and the chemi naisons, as you put it, she's getting a very easy ride from the media.

12:38They've decided they love her. And to give her credit, I mean, people like someone who's shown some resilience. She's kept on going. They've got used to her and the media are giving her a fair win. But as I say, I'm afraid to say it is because they really, really want to stop reform. And the problems with the Tory party remain. And as you say, it's never been personal. I've got many, many good friends there. I don't think it helps to make it personal. But we've got to put country before party. And if we want to defeat Labour, if we want to restore common sense, if we want to do all the things we all want to do about immigration and energy, policing, the economy, the only way to do that is to unite behind a party that can win.

13:19and that stands for the real change that the country needs, which is a break from the model of government we've had for 25 years, which I'm afraid to say, and I work for David Cameron, all credit to him, but the Tory party in government, Boris Rishi, all colluded with a model that Blair had set, and we need to break with that fundamentally, and the Tory party can't do that because they are complicit with the record. They are responsible for the state the country is in. The only way to, as it were, absolve themselves of responsibility for that, and I don't think it should be personal. They should join us.

13:51You know, we need conservative supporters, activists, and I would say politicians to say, yes, Nigel was right all along. And in order to save our country, to have a genuinely conservative government, the only way to do that is to swallow our pride, say it's not all about us, doesn't matter about the conservative brand, let's put the country first and let's back reform. Danny, they might be willing to join you because you're a gentleman, and that's obvious from this interview, But there are some people in reform, and ITV showed this, who are not gentlemen. And one example is a high-profile supporter of your party, Rahim Kassam, who has said online that Kemi Bednock is a, quote, Nigerian scammer.

14:35He joked, don't give her your credit card number and bank account details. Elsewhere, he said, so Kemi, tell us the truth. Are you a walking gaffe or an illegal immigrant? First of all, what do you think about someone calling Kemi Badenok a Nigerian scammer? And secondly, why won't the party distance itself from this man? Well, I mean, Raheem Kazam is not a party spokesman and he's free to say what he likes. And, you know, a bit of rumbustious debate online, I think, is part of our politics. And so I've got nothing to say to that. It's not my style. But listen, the country is really, really furious with the political system that we have.

15:15And people who are responsible for policy in the last government, senior ministers who approved all of the madness of net zero, for instance, the principal reason we have the highest electricity prices in the world, who connived at our open borders policy. I'm afraid to say they do have to bear responsibility. I've said there's a way to absolve themselves of that which is to admit their errors that's what I did I was only a junior backbencher at the end of the last parliament but I was responsible for voting for some of that madness and I've said I am sorry and I recognise that what we should have done is what Nigel was arguing for at the time we should have resisted all of this as I tried to and I broke the whip and I got in trouble with Rishi but that's what is needed from former Tories or from Tories to do that And it's not surprising that people who don't, people who are basically still loyal to the failures of the past, are going to get a fair bit of grief online.

16:10But two things can be true at the same time. One is that the establishment is coming for you. Don't deny that. The second is that reform sometimes gives the establishment the chance to have a go at it by allowing characters such as Kasem into the tent. and the party's lack of apparent discipline, its refusal to discipline people like him or distance itself from him, is a problem. And some people suspect it's because it's a party of mates and Rahim is a mate. And if he weren't, if he were just some random reform activist, at some point someone would have said, this guy's an idiot, he's got nothing to do with us, shut up, you're wrong.

16:46But the very fact that you won't on this podcast when hearing that someone has described Kemi as a Nigerian scammer, you won't just instinctively say, yeah, that's disgusting, I don't like that. Instead, you call it rambunctious. I mean, that raises questions. I mean, I'm uncomfortable with that, I have to say. Why not just call it for what it is, which is a disgusting and unnecessary slur? Well, Tim, I mean, you're inviting me to get involved in sort of, you know, fratricidal conflict within the reform family, and I don't want to do that. I think what we need to do is to focus on the real challenges our country faces.

17:22As I say, I don't go in for, you know, personal attacks on Tories or indeed on anybody. I just don't think that's a helpful way of doing politics. But others do. And they reflect the, as I say, the very legitimate and very serious anger that is in the country about the state of the country that the Tories left us in. So I'm not going to I'm not going to start judging people for for using, you know, strong language online. Let them do that. And Kimmy can take it. I don't think she's particularly faith.

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19:02Tim makes a point about is the greatest threat to reform actually not the establishment, but from within? I mean, the thing about the expose, about the activists is this kind of there's vetting, but it's slightly chaotic. As part of the vetting, somebody says to someone, oh, well, you better delete anything that you previously posted about Tommy Robinson. It's all a bit amateur. We get the fact that you're a resurgent and insurgent party and that you're new and that you're new to this. And you don't have that kind of traditional grassroots base that the Tories have enjoyed literally for decades.

19:35But at the same time... Well, it doesn't help them either, does it? I mean, they've also got people just as bad and they're in the news this week for it. I know. We've covered it. No, but Danny, we've covered it. I think there is something perhaps internally going on with reform, which lends itself to the suggestion that it's all a bit amateur. It's all a bit about Nigel and the people he has around him. Is he too loyal and trusting of people that perhaps aren't in his best interests? That shouldn't be there. He is loyal. And he has quite a high bar for like slapping people down. You know, we are the free speech party, so we're not going to go around, you know, controlling what everybody says.

20:12And if it gets a bit punchy, then so be it. As I keep saying, that reflects what the country actually feel. So but what I don't accept, Camilla, is that it's amateur. I mean, what we have is a we've got a lot of money now, you know, but even before that came in. I mean, I was very impressed by it when I arrived, how much of the resource that reform has is behind the scenes or below the waterline, as it were. It's where the machinery of the party is really impressive now. I think we should invite journalists to come and have a look around Milbank, actually. We'll come and have a look. We'll do behind the scenes.

20:44It's a very impressive operation, looking at our campaigning, but also the vetting, you know, all the candidate selection business that goes on. I think we do that far more professionally than any other party does, because, of course, we are, as you say, where you're right. I mean, the Tories have a whole network of local politicians and activists and basically wannabe politicians who have been developing over the years. We are deliberately reaching out into the sort of non-political world. People have not thought that politics is for them, but realize that now is the time to step up and start to serve their country.

21:17And over the coming months, you're going to start seeing that more frontbench spokespeople, spokespeople, but also candidates announced, our parliamentary candidates who have got through this very rigorous process and approved to stand for parliament. Really, really high quality people who do not have a background in politics, but have led organisations in the public service sector or in business. And that whole professionalisation that has been going on over the last year, which you don't hear about, and maybe that's our fault. And it's true, of course, that we create negative headlines for ourselves sometimes.

21:48We trip up and screw up. That happens. And but that is because we are not the does happen in other parties, as I keep saying, but we are a populist party. We represent the people and it's going to be messy sometimes and we are growing at enormous speed. So these kind of things happen. We're not going to diminish them, but they are not the main event. The main event is that reform is a very, very professional operation now. And crucially, as I really want to emphasize, the issue is not individuals. the issue is what we are wanting to do for the country. And that is substantial, radical. And that is why we are attracting such intense opposition from the media and from the establishment.

22:31Let's take one of those key policy issues, just to close on. Brexit. The Prime Minister seems determined to reopen this wound. How is reform going to capitalise on this? What are you going to say to people at the next election about the EU? Because you're going to have to respond to the challenge that leaving it has been bad for the economy. Yeah, yeah. Well, quickly, I mean, that's so easily knocked down. If you look at the European economy, we have done better than our competitors in France and Germany. Obviously, we should have been growing much faster because we should have maximised on the opportunities of Brexit.

23:03But in the sectors that we have, particularly in those high-tech sectors that are the economy of the future, Britain is doing far better than the rest of the EU. We've attracted, in fact, more investment into our AI sector than the whole of the EU in recent years. So we are world leading in the areas where we have genuine independence. And my answer to the question, what are we going to do about Burnham's reset? It is extraordinary that in the state of the world that we're in, the state of the country, he is putting political capital into joining this failing economic bloc, just in order to give us a little bit more market access, which of course we need and would like.

23:39But look at the Nobel Prize from last year, 2025. Nobel Prize was won by people proving that economic growth and the reason the West has prospered for 200 years is not because of market access, it's because of innovation and technology. Britain led that revolution. We can lead it again because we have these amazing tech sectors. Europe is killing its tech sector, absolutely killing it. And the idea of rejoining this old model at a time like this when we so need to focus on other things. Yes, we need to be in collaboration with the EU, particularly on defence. But we don't need to join the EU for that.

24:16We need to be allied with Poland, Germany, France, Italy, the actual countries that do stuff, not this terrible dysfunctional bureaucracy in Brussels. Can I just do a Colombo? Just one more thing, Danny. You know the 72 million. Is it already in the reformed bank account? And who decides how and where it's spent? uh i don't know how where what bank account it's in but i presume so but has it all come in already you've got i think the whole idea was that it was given up front because it was an attempt to stop labor uh legislating to to prevent us receiving it um it was three months three months uh three years funding all given up front um and who decides spending it well it's a combination obviously nigel himself ultimately but there's a very very capable treasurer uh who's in charge of spending and there's a party board which approves the budget so again the professionalization of the party has come on enormously and that money is going to be very well spent both on campaigning crucially in order to win but also on preparing for government which is my part of the uh of the of the puzzle which is ensuring that when we win we actually have the detailed plans to reform whitehall to reform uh the uh civil service and the judiciary so that they don't frustrate us and they actually deliver on behalf of a reformed government.

25:32Fairly hefty intro then, Danny. How we run the country by Danny Kruger. Thank you very, very much indeed for sparing some time to speak to us on the Daily Tea today. Thank you. Thank you. So there you have it. Everything's fine within the reformed party, although he did say he didn't want to comment on fratricidal matters, which of course means both brotherly and murderous. Yes, that's right. But if there isn't brotherly and murderous tendencies within any political party, then what would we have to talk about? Yeah, because they're all run by men. That's the principle. Bring back Maggie. Bring back Maggie.

26:05Left right, populist establishment, the important thing is that they're all run by men. Just don't let the blokes be in control of any of this. That's where the problems start and finish. And talking of blokey budget chats, I'm the only bird at the table, aren't I, for that one? Yeah, we'll be back tomorrow at 5pm with a pre-budget special with Jeremy Hunt and Norman Lamont. Yay! Remember him? Yeah. So that's four people discussing the budget. At least two of them can count. Back tomorrow, 5pm.

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