Tory ‘has been’ Zahawi defects to Reform after comparing Farage to Goebbels

0:02The Telegraph

0:09He once compared Nigel Farage to Goebbels. Now, Nadim Zahawi has joined his party. Has reform become a retirement home for Tory has-beens? And who will be next to cross the floor? And we speak to the British-Iranian comic Ahmed Jalili about the crisis in Iran. Welcome to The Daily Tea with me, Camilla Tomini. And me, Tim Stanley.

0:41Tim, did you anticipate that of all the Tories that could be unveiled at the Reform press conference today, still got the wristband on to prove it, gold this time, moving on from fluorescent colours, would be Nadeem Zahawi? No. Well, after reading your column, I thought it'd be Rob Jenner. Yeah, do you think I've cocked that up a bit? Look, I'm glad... I think you've pushed him further back into the closet. Can I just... He's in Narnia now when it comes to defections. Can I just say that obviously I'm glad I wrote about the theme of Tory defections to reform because there's a lot in the water right now, there's a lot in the air, there's a lot of rumours abound, but maybe I did look a bit silly that I got the wrong Tory.

1:22Well, let's listen to Nadeem Zahawi explaining why he done it. We can all see that our beautiful, ancient, kind, magical island story has reached a dark and dangerous chapter. Things may feel like they're ticking along just fine Within a few square miles of where we stand today But in so much of the rest of the country The sickness is no surprise to anyone To anyone trying to get a doctor's appointment To anyone who wants to express an opinion Whether on X or even just down the pub To anyone who wants their children to be taught facts, not harmful fictions at school To anyone just trying to earn a living and not get crushed into the dirt by ever-growing taxes Even if you don't yet realise that Britain needs reform You know in your heart of hearts that our wonderful country is sick How many of you at home have thought to yourselves that nothing works today?

2:36I know I have, and I have it a damn sight easier than most people. That is why I'm standing here today as the newest member of Reform UK. He is a substantial defection. He is a former chairman of the Conservative Party, although he had to step down after there were issues regarding tax. He is a former chancellor, although only for about two days, and he had to step down because the government collapsed. But even if he only held these various positions briefly, he did hold them. Yes. We were surprised by the defection. He is a rich man and behind the scenes quite highly regarded, I think. Yes. And it feels as though it gives reform a little more momentum into the new year.

3:25and even if he is not the most exciting defection, it makes you think they're still happening. Who will be next? Indeed. And let's be honest, Zahawi's political history is a little checkered. His personal backstory is very impressive. Oh, yes. He flees war-torn Iraq. He doesn't speak a word of English. He comes to the UK, embraces everything Britain has to offer, ends up being quite exceptional in business, sets up the polling firm YouGov. enters politics. It's the kind of guy who's got quite a few fingers in quite a few pies. Yes. I think the last time I saw him was at the Conservative Friends of Israel lunch.

4:04It was the week I'd taken my son to work experience and he came with me. And he was there sort of ducking and diving, had a hand or was trying to have a hand in the telegraph sale, helping one of the people trying to buy us. Hasn't turned out to have worked, but whatever. And to be fair, my son was left. He's quite an impressive man, isn't he? He's an interesting character. But the kind of character that you might be asking, why would he vote reform? And what happened during this press conference is that first he was unveiled and the press went, ooh, that's quite impressive. And then as he started speaking, of course, we went on the internet and started googling his name.

4:41And by the time we came to press questions, well, members of the media were armed with things that Nadeem Zahawi had said in the past. In 2015, there was a controversy where Nigel Farage, then leader of UKIP, seemed to suggest that British firms should be able to discriminate against foreign-born workers. Nadine Zahawi at the time tweeted this. I'm not British-born, Mr Nigel Farage. I am as British as you are. These are shortened words. Your comments are offensive and racist. He combined the two words with an ampersand. I would be frightened to live in country run by you. Yes. Notwithstanding quite how he's expressed that in the vein of a 12-year-old girl.

5:28Back then, tweets were much shorter. Yeah. Oh, yes, that's right. During the war, everything was rationed and tweets were much shorter. 80 characters or less. Then we have also in 2015, this is an ongoing war of words, by the way, between Zahawi and now his new esteemed leader, Nigel Farage. And you've got to imagine all of these tweets being quoted by journalists and read out to Nadim Zahawi at the press conference. Yes, so also in 2015, as these two continue this quite aggressive war of words, Zahawi likened Farage's cause to scrap race discrimination laws to Nazi propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels, telling LBC at the time its remark that Goebbels would be proud of and saying that Farage is, quote, deeply racist.

6:12Again, you have to imagine these tweets being read out by journalists at this press conference. Here was another one, this time from 2014. I think the context for this is a discussion of whether or not Nadine Zahawi would join UKIP, to which he replied, no chance, been a Conservative all my life and will die a Conservative. And we also had a clip of Nigel Farage when Nadine Zahawi was under pressure to resign. As you mentioned earlier over his tax affairs, of course, Nigel Farage did suggest that it was a good idea that Zahawi did resign and that he was bringing the government into disrepute. So what are we to infer from all this?

6:52Is it any wonder? I get political opportunity. I get that there is no one more cravenly ambitious than the politician that has lost a seat and wants a seat. I also understand that there are concerns that the vote on the right is going to be divided and actually it's become a kind of do or die situation for some disenfranchised Tories they're looking at both camps on the right and they're saying, look, the Turquoise have got a better chance of electing more MPs, therefore I'm going to go with them because I don't think Badenock's going to do well enough. And do you know what? They may be backed up in that assumption at the local elections on May 7th.

7:30Let's see how disastrous it is for the Conservatives. Having said all that, is it any wonder, Tim, that the public hold politicians in such low regard, regard them as worse than even journalists, estate agents, money-grabbing lawyers, when they can be this sort of cravenly fickle? Well, let's have a generous interpretation, which is that it is difficult to defect. You have to turn your back on friends and you have to explain yourself to cynics like us. And it's possible that Adim Zahawi has genuinely concluded that Nigel Farage not only will be the next prime minister, but should be. But when Nigel Farage was asked to explain these various tweets, his answer was, come on, it was a long time ago, and indeed 10, 11 years ago.

8:18And also, there was an election on at the time. OK, so what does that mean? Does that mean that during general elections, people lie? Yes. About what they think about their opponents? I mean, I don't want to come across as naive, politician in lying shock. Let's not be ridiculous. Or exaggeration or hyperbole. But nonetheless, OK, so if we could turn the clock back and if you would have known that in the future you would be an ally of Nadim Zahawi, could the two of you not gone around calling each other Nazis? I know Farage didn't, but did we have to go through the Nazi period? Yes. Given that we all know that there is a possibility that at some point in the future you'll be in the same party?

8:56Also, because they were both at it, it strengthens this idea that at the end of the day, although they claim to have differences, And this is a problem that's going to plague reform and the Conservatives, as they say, very overlapping things. This strange pretense at two sides being at war when behind the scenes they agree on pretty much everything. Yes. You know, this whole idea that because the Conservatives let you down and we have to take over and no, we can't have any PACs, even though we know that both of those leaders will be discussing PACs with donors. I don't think that that Christopher Harbourn, who had given millions to the Tories, turned around and gave nine million to reform without some kind of assurance that should the time come to see off a progressive alliance of Labour, the Lib Dems and the Greens, God help us all, that maybe they will not cut off their noses to spite their faces.

9:51Also now you've got WhatsApp groups lighting up, not only with some of the different tweets that have been exchanged between these two men, but also a bit of background for context. So sources close to Badenock suggest that Zahawi twice asked for a peerage and she rejected him. So thinking he couldn't be ennobled, he couldn't go to the House of Lords, is this now a desperate bid for relevance by going over to reform? There is a degree of ridiculousness about the whole there's always a tweet element to politics these days. Yeah, yeah. Either don't make the tweet in the first place or stand by it.

10:29Also, people have discovered a speech given by Nadeem Zahawi saying that immigration is a good thing for Britain. How does he square that with his membership of reform? Either way, reform, these press conferences, which as Nigel Farage joked now happen every week, and even he stole our line about you don't need to take the wristband off anymore. There's a growing antipathy between the party and the press, even though they invite us every week to cover them. And even though we do, nonetheless, there's still quite a testy tone. And it was captured in this exchange. Tony Diver, Telegraph journalist, asked her, I thought, perfectly reasonable question about vaccines.

11:05And Adim Zahawi said this. Hello, Tony Diver from the Telegraph. Mrs. Zahawi, on this point about COVID vaccines, I hear the point about free speech, but the doctor previously mentioned told Reforms Conference that the vaccines that you rolled out may have caused the king's cancer. And he was described by David Bull as someone who worked with him to write Reforms Health Policy. So do you reject those views? And if they have shaped Reforms Health Policy, will you try to change it? I think you'll find David Bull actually spoke about vaccines on Friday night at our event that we held down at the Excel Centre with just shy of 3 ,000 people launching our London campaign.

11:40And I think you'll find, if you look at what Dr David Bull, our chairman, said, how proud he was of the work, actually for centuries, that London had done and led the way in with vaccines. And as Nadim said previously, we get all sorts of speakers from all over the world, some of whom have different opinions. Can I just come in for Tony? Please. I expected more from you. That was a really stupid question, and it doesn't even deserve an answer. So try again next time. And at the beginning of the press conference, Nigel had a pop at sketch writers. Shock, horror, Tim. Which felt personal. I know that the sketch writers will go on saying that we're a one-man band.

12:19It doesn't matter how many women we get elected. It doesn't matter how many senior figures from all walks of life join us. for some reason the one-man band narrative seems to have stuck. So when I got my question, I, of course, open with this. Tim Sally, Daily Tea, are you a one-man band? Joke! Joke! Clearly. Right. Clearly not. There's a lot of people in this band, I can see that. A conservative spokesman has just said, reform is fast becoming the party of has-been politicians looking for their next gravy train. So my first question, Nadeem, are you a has-been politician? And Nigel, is there any Tory politician you won't take?

13:01What is your bar? How do you decide who to say yes to and who to say no to? Have you ever said no? That is a very good question. Have we said no to people? Yes, we have. Well, there we go. I'm not going to tell you that, I might, for goodness sake. I mean, that's an even more skeefer question. Look, we want people who believe in what we're doing. And the reason I was a fan of this guy and rather hoped he would become the leader of the Conservative Party, is I could see, you know, on some of the really tough issues facing this country, that others would rather simply brush under the carpet, like extremism, as you mentioned in your speech earlier, that this was a guy that had the conviction and that actually wanted to do it.

13:40So, you know, before the next question comes, yes, there are plenty of people in the Conservative Party currently talking to me. And some might fit, and some really might not fit. But they all can see, they all can see, that May 7th is an absolutely pivotal moment, after which there is a strong chance that the Conservative Party, after its couple of hundred years, will cease to be a national political party. Hence all the conversations that are going on. Tim, whoever the spokesman for my old party, I hope they'll ask the leader, if I'm a has-been politician, when she and her team came to me not too long ago, without betraying confidences, for my advice on how the party should move forward.

14:34So I think that speaks volumes for my ability. As I said earlier in my speech, I could just sit at home and enjoy my life. But I've decided to come forward and be a foot soldier for Reform UK, because I think it's our last chance to really get this country back on its feet. It's a difficult day, isn't it, for Kemi Badenok, in the sense that she seems to take one step forward and two steps back. So some really interesting YouGov polling out this morning, suggesting that she is now on a popularity par with Keir Starmer in terms of who people think should be the next prime minister. That was very striking.

15:11That polling showing that everyone beats Farage in their choice to be prime minister, including Keir Starmer, including Ed Davey. Which is surprising. Yeah, it is because his party is leading the polls. But when people have to imagine someone forming a government, They've not yet come around to the idea of Nigel Farage doing it. And Kemi Beidnock, yes, you say, running even with Starmer is a surprise because it means she is outperforming her party in the polls. Yes. And that must give conservatives hope that things could change in the next three years if the public starts to vote on party lines the way it perceives the leaders.

15:52Yeah, I mean, I should qualify that. I don't think it's great that she's on a par popularity-wise with Keir Starmer. the way to think about it is she was on 28 it ain't high but like six months to 12 months ago she was kind of in nowheresville who is this woman most people couldn't pick her out of a lineup now you've got that recognizability factor that is so important not least when you are taking on someone like farage who is probably the best known politician in the country by miles right apart from boris johnson in terms of stopping them in the street and you know going over and wanting a selfie, she's there.

16:25So that will have really helped her. But now she loses another Tory big beast. Yes. And there is a lot in the ether. There's a lot of whispers in Westminster about defection in general. I wrote the piece about Jenrick because that is what I'd been hearing and Leila Cunningham suggested to us on the Daily Tea last Thursday, do listen to it if you haven't already, that she wouldn't want to accept Jenrick because she associates him with the Tory failure of previous governments I wrote a piece basically saying, yes, it is true to suggest that Robert Jenrick is being actively courted by reform. I had had conversations with various different sources close to all these people over Christmas.

17:06For what it's worth, insiders who are near to Jenrick, who had a huge go at me on Friday afternoon about my column, which shows that it did strike a chord and was on the money, said, no, he'll never defect. So let's see. Watch this space. I think there was a feeling that if he was getting a defect, he should have done it to kibosh the Tory party conference. Instead, he made quite a splash at the Tory party conference with some references he made to never having seen a white face in Birmingham. And also, do you remember pulling that judge's wig out of a hat like a magician with a rabbit? Yeah, he had a whole day to himself.

17:41He had a whole day to himself. And he was kind of like one of the stars of the show until Badenock made her speech. And the theory is Jenrick is getting increasingly disillusioned because the better Kemi does, the less he is in the spotlight. And that's problematic. And he's looking at Newark. He's got a three and a half thousand strong majority there. It's leaning ever closer to reform. He probably won't win as a Tory. So what does he do? So he's one to watch. There are conversations going on. Any denial that there are conversations going on is for the birds. But also regarding Jenrick, a lot of us don't understand why he's the justice, shadow justice minister, rather than say shadow home secretary.

18:23Or shadow chancellor. He wants to be shadow chancellor. He feels as the person who lost out on the leadership, that he should have been brought into Kemi's tent probably as her second in command. So she's got Alex Burkhart alongside her, who sometimes deputises at PMQs. And equivalently, it's like, well, who are you? Why not Rob? Why not Rob Jenrick? also let's be honest Jenrick would be good at taking on Rachel Reeves we love Mel Stride Burkhart's not been bad actually no he hasn't been bad and we love Mel Stride who very often strides in and out of this podcast studio but he is associated more with the One Nation side of things and if they want to be throwing some red meat around to the right then that combo of Kemi and Robert could be quite potent but I think she thinks or her team thinks He's increasingly operating in a silo and he's not a team player.

19:13And it's all about Jenrick and Jenrick's future leadership hopes. So there's a, I mean, I think they both just need to go out and have a few drinks together at the Westminster Arms and just sort it out. But that's where we are with that. So yes, defection was in the ether all weekend, but who knew that it would be Zahawi who appeared today? And I just want to emphasize, he is a significant person to join, probably more in organizational terms than in publicity terms, because he's a very good fundraiser. Yes. He has the connections. And I was watching Danny Kruger during this and I thought he looked pretty pleased for himself.

19:45He's the other most significant Tory who joined recently. And you can see them now building an institutional team. I don't think Zahar is going to be out on the road. He's not going to be singing at any conferences. But behind the scenes, he's part of building credibility and building structure. So it is a very important day for them. but a lot of us are still waiting for the Labour defection. Yes. Otherwise, with this continuing to be a Boris wave part two party with a lot of people who supported Boris or Brexit and then angry with the direction of the Tories, as we get more of these defections, ironically, it leaves me asking more, why don't the two parties just coalesce?

20:28Because if they're sharing the same personnel, if they're sharing the same policies because the Tories are becoming more reform-like, At what point are we just going to get a coalition between them? Because that's the only way they're going to be able to form a government. People have said, by the way, as you mentioned Boris Johnson there, it can't be coincidence that all these people that have defected, Jake Berry, Nadine Dorris, Andrea Jenkins... It's not with the support of Boris. Well, Boris has probably been consulted in all of these cases. And he has said no in all of these cases. Nadine Dorris told us in this studio, didn't she?

21:01Look, he advised against this. But this whole suggestion, I mean, you asked the great question, which we heard earlier, you know, are there any Tories you won't take? If offered Boris, would he take him? I don't think Boris wants to do this at all, by the way. No, no, he doesn't. Because there are two biggies, potential biggies, Johnson and Truss. Yes. Who we know are disgruntled. And they are equal opposites. Johnson would be too popular for Farage to take him in because he would immediately eclipse Farage. Trust would be too unpopular. Yes. As much as I personally admire her, we know what her reputation is.

21:36And it would devastate Reform's popularity to have her in. The other one we're watching is Suella Braverman. And I'll let you in on a little secret. So I was at an event that was attended by both Zia Yusuf and Suella's husband, Raoul, who had had a falling out with Reform. He had joined Reform and then left it because of the way he treated his wife. I was asked, as the Silla Black of the piece, could I introduce Raoul to Zia Yusuf? Was there a wall that slid away? Surprise, surprise! I did a little leg kick in the air. And basically, yes, Mr Braverman wanted to be introduced to former chairman, now head of policy, Yusuf.

22:17What we make of that, who knows? That's a little Christmas cracker for you, belatedly. There was one serious policy discussion at the press conference and that was Iran. Nigel Farage confirmed that he would prescribe the IRGC, the Iranian militant group, and also described himself as a friend of Reza Pahlavi, the Shah in exile. We're going to be discussing this with somebody who's been very prominent on X in recent days. It's the British Iranian comedian Omid Jalili who's going to be joining us next.

23:01I think one of the most striking scenes of this historic weekend was at the UK Iranian embassy when a protester scaled up the wall, took down the Republic of Iran flag and waved the old flag of the Shah's Persia. Yes, reaching the lion. Also just because of his spidey sense. I mean, he climbed up that building so quickly. It's great to watch the police shouting at him impotently. I know. In America, he would have been shot. But in this country, I'm very pleased to say he got away with it. But it was so determined and defiant and it was quite extraordinary. And to be fair, even more extraordinary scenes have been playing out on the streets of Iran where these protests are different in character, Tim, aren't they, to the ones that took place in 2019?

23:45Because they were quite sporadic and spread quite apart when you look at the map of Iran. whereas those mats that put the red dot up as to everywhere that a protest has been staged, it almost colours the whole country red. And the bravery of some of these people who are taking to the streets in the face of gunfire and unfortunately the bodies have been piling up in the street and there's been a rhetoric around the coverage or lack thereof by the BBC and the silence of the so-called liberals who usually think nothing about taking to the streets in protest when it comes to persecuted protesters, young women shot in the back for trying to take a stand against the Ayatollah.

24:27But also just even though there's been a social media blackout, some of the videos that have filtered through, obviously some depicting hugely violent and disturbing scenes, others rather more uplifting, young girls doing gymnastics in the streets and dancing, young women taking off their hijabs and their robes, wanting to be free again, wanting to go back to that pre-1979 Persian sort of picture of mini-skirted elegance. But the question is whether this is different. Is it different this time? Because it feels like if it isn't now, then never. Well, the US-based human rights activist news agency says it has verified the deaths of at least 495 protesters and 48 security personnel.

25:07And I'm sure that those figures will turn out to have been too low. Because we're not in Iran, it's difficult to figure out what's happening in Iran. Has the Iranian state fully unleashed its security forces yet? One suspects not. There's talk of the supreme leader Khamenei fleeing to Moscow. I'm not sure we've reached that point. Yes. There is still a base of support for the regime. It has big military power. I suspect that if it wanted to fight back even more and attack foreigners, because of course it's an imperial power, I'm sure it could do that too. The scenes out of Venezuela as well, Tim, do give this a slightly different aura because we've obviously seen regime change enforced by Donald Trump there.

25:48Rather different if people are thinking that the Americans can swoop in and capture the Ayatollah, not least because Iran is completely landlocked and far more perilous. So it wouldn't be that kind of regime change, would it? But it would be American support for the protesters to try and overcome the military there, which is no mean feat. We're now joined by the brilliant actor and comedian, the star of The Mummy, Gladiator, and James Bond's The World Is Not Enough, Ahmed Jalili, who was born in London to Iranian Baha 'i parents who emigrated from Tehran in 1958. Ahmed, thank you for joining us.

26:23You've been right across this on social media, despite Tehran imposing a social media ban within the country. What's it been like watching this from afar as a British Iranian? Well, you know, there are a lot of Iranians right now who are all sleep deprived. We're all on our phones. We're on the Telegram channels. We're on the Instagram channels. We're on Instagram Lives with Iranian television networks, trying to get as much information as we can. When I first saw this unfold, it started off as the bazaaries, which means people who own bazaars. And we were very well aware the economy is crashing, the Iranian economy is crashing.

26:58This is a regime that spends so much money. They've got millions and trillions of dollars, but some cities don't even have clean water, electricity. They don't even have clean air. So we knew something was afoot. And when the Bazaars closed, they closed the shops because inflation was so, I mean, literally to get a kebab and rice, which would have been the equivalent of like£2.50, is suddenly £15.50. And so no one can afford anything. So when they shut the things down, then you know there's going to be something going on. So I watched it. There were protests. And I think the first thing I saw, which really shocked me, was the Guardian newspaper.

27:40The first thing they put out on the 29th of December. This is after a couple of days of protests. The first thing they did was an opinion piece by Abbas Araqchi, the Islamic regime foreign minister. They just gave a whole opinion piece. So I called them out and I said, this is ridiculous. And then I saw BBC News saying, well, you know, this is BBC Verify. We've got this thing about some things are false, some things are not. And I had a trauma memory as an Iranian because during the Women's Life Freedom protests, BBC Verify, and one of the people working there had just put on his own Twitter account, said, don't worry, they're not going to have, stop screaming about execution.

28:17Stop screaming that there's going to be a crackdown. And I said to him, you're the bloke at the back of a plane when it's heading nose to the ground. You're the one shouting, stop screaming. We haven't hit the ground yet. And I just said, this is ridiculous. So I saw there seemed to be a media blackout. And then I could see the protests growing and growing. So I started tweeting about it. And people started noticing I was tweeting about it. So it's something we're very, because it's not Britain, it's not the West. And people switch off. They think it's crazy Middle Eastern people and it doesn't make any difference to our lives.

28:50But actually, we're going to be doing a big press tour with a TV series that I've got on ITV called Betrayal, which is about the real-life British spies who are thwarting terrorist attacks, 70 of which were from the Islamic regime of Iran. So it does affect us here. Whatever happens in the Middle East, it affects us here. So I'm very concerned and I'm watching also as a British person who is concerned that if this isn't resolved, it's going to affect us here. Omid, we've seen a lot of anti-regime protests in recent years, particularly over the last decade. We've seen women take part in uprisings.

29:25We've also seen the sort of social media generation understand that there's strength in numbers. Why do you think that these protests are different and might actually enforce regime change? Because it does feel like a case of if it's not now, then never. Yeah, every time we see when there's a crap down, I mean, look, I'll give you an example. even yesterday, that there are reports of anywhere between 192 and 500. Some reports saying 2 ,000 people have been killed. And yet all we see is more and more people joining the protests. And there's a feeling that people are at that point. They're at that point.

30:01And I've seen videos of people rushing towards the security forces being shot at. And you think, my goodness, how brave are these people? But then again, you see they're in the state where their money means nothing. They're trying to win the hearts and minds of the people, killing them, saying, look, our money is the same worthlessness as yours. And there is a feeling that it's better to... I mean, I don't want to say this. It's a very terrible thing. But the feeling is that people are at that point where they say it's better to die on your feet than live on your knees. And I think we're looking at people who are on their knees, which is why we're seeing unprecedented amounts of bravery, courage, and actually organisation now.

30:41They're not going to stop. These demonstrations are not, I can tell you that right now, they're not going to stop. Omid, with its vast reserves of oil, this ought to be a very rich country. Where has all that money gone? That's a very loaded question. I mean, if you look at, you know, I did the Saudi Arabian Riyadh Comedy Festival recently to so much criticism and people say, what are you doing? But you're looking at a culture that is speed running towards modernity. You know, there are four theocracies in the world. One is Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, the Islamic regime of Iran, and the Catholic Church in the Vatican.

31:15Now, it's very interesting. Last year, actually in 2024, the Pope met about 103 comedians. And then the Saudis said that he met them, but we're platforming them because we're speed running towards modernity. And someone said to me, how can he be there when you're fighting or criticizing the Islamic regime? And I said, if the Islamic regime had a comedy festival in Tehran and pigs were flying, I'd be on the first pig out there. That's the point. Because this regime is not spending money on its own people. Majority of the money is spent towards international terrorism, funding Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis.

31:52And the people of Iran have had enough. This is one of the biggest oil-rich countries we have ever seen. And the thing is, they buddied up with Venezuela. This is something people didn't know. I saw Tom Tugendhat on with Andrew Marr, and Andrew Marr had no idea. When he was saying, why isn't Trump helping out? And he said, they are. Trump is. By taking out Maduro, he's helping the people of Iran. He goes, wait, sorry, what's the connection? Which was a kind of total dereliction of his duties. You should really know that Iran and Venezuela are completely connected. Iran is providing so much for the Venezuelan economy, because with the idea that they'll buddy up because Venezuela has tremendous amounts of crude oil, and so does Iran.

32:33So they were buddying up, and that's been cut off. So these mullahs who are, we believe the regime is coming to an end. They were going to be leaving for Venezuela, but that's not happening right now. But the people of Iran do deserve to have awareness about what's going on. And this is an unfolding story of one of the most remarkable groups of people fighting. By the way, it's not freedom. This is not a kind of romantic idea of freedom. them, oh, they'll be so happy. And no, this is a group of people. I'm a Baha 'i. The Baha 'is were persecuted in minority. They used to execute Baha 'is. And I have friends and family who, their parents were just taken off, shot in the head, body thrown into a ditch.

33:11And they said, if you want the body, you've got to pay this amount of money. And in the invoice, they charge you for the bullets that they've used to kill the loved ones. We're talking about, and by the way, it's very important to say, this is a regime that has spent money because they are, It's nothing to do with Islam. It's very important that we make this decision. This is not an anti-Islamic demonstration. They are having a go at Muslim and Islamic fundamentalists and fanatics. It's a distortion of that faith. All of my Muslim friends are saying, when you go on these shows, please make that distinction.

33:45There is a difference between ordinary Muslims and Islam and what we're seeing in Iran. And that is a thing they're trying to dismantle. You've mentioned the sort of complicit silence of some of the so-called liberal progressive intelligentsia. What's your analysis of Keir Starmer's handling of this? Donald Trump's rhetoric has been far tougher. Has our own prime minister appeared to lack courage on this issue? It's not even so much Keir Starmer. We don't want to politicise this, but I think there's a general feeling here. You know, there was this thing, I had a go at a lot of my liberal friends saying, look, you were supporting the women of Iran when it's woman life freedom.

34:24But now it seems that because the Islamic regime stood up to Israel and fired missiles at them, it's like as if the enemy of my enemy is my friend. So a lot of British people say, oh dear, I don't think we can criticise the Islamic regime because isn't that Islamophobic? We might be seen as pro-Israel. You can be totally for Palestinian rights and also support the people of Iran. There is absolutely no distinction because it's human rights. This is what it's about. So frankly, I've seen online some people writing these articles from a bit, oh, what does the Iranian left say? Oh, well, you know, it's going to be all terrible.

35:05It's just going to go the way of Syria and go the way of Afghanistan, if you don't have anything positive to say and support the people who are literally being killed on the streets of Iran right now, I honestly think you should just keep quiet. And I think this is the one thing that I see that is the people of Iran not interested in our culture wars. No one gives a damn about culture wars when you're being shot fighting for freedom. So my particular thing is if you've got nothing to say to support the people and to to call out crimes against humanity, then shut the hell up. But Keir Starmer, I mean, we haven't prescribed the IRGC in this country.

35:43I mean, that's not happened under successive governments. Just to hammer home that point just about our Prime Minister, some are arguing that his rhetoric should be tougher in support of the protesters, and not least, as Tim and I referenced earlier, the brave chap who climbed on the walls of the Iranian embassy in the UK and swap those flags over. I mean, goodness me. Spider-Man. It was amazing. We thought he was incredible. It was just so funny seeing the British police chase after him as well. Look, at the end of the day, no one knows what's going on. Nothing is black and white. There are things going on.

36:17I know in the former, when we were really pushing for the IRGC to be prescribed on the terrorist list, it was made very clear to me that there's a reason why that's not happening. It's basically to keep the British embassy open. They've been prescribed by Canada. they've been prescribed by America. The only kind of intel we can get is from the British embassy. So there's a reason why he's not doing that. And that's not even, that's common knowledge now, that the British embassy is probably one of the few Western embassies that are in Iran right now, quite funnily on Bobby Sand Street as well. They changed the name to Bobby Sand Street because there's always been a connection there with the Islamic regime, with anyone who seems to be fighting.

36:54They try and make out they're all freedom fighters. So I don't blame Keir Starmer. I think he's doing what he has to do. But I think eventually, as the regime is being isolated, the Turkish government have come out against the Islamic regime. But at the end of the day, I'm more interested in the people of Iran. And I'm really interested in them seeing this through to the end. And hopefully being literally no more bloodshed. That's what nobody wants. And I think by raising awareness and putting pressure on this regime, we need to stop the bloodshed. And they need to go. And, you know, these regimes are at their most dangerous when they're tottering on the edge.

37:29and I'll finish with this, is that the bazaars, which are close, there's a national strike there, and there was Tanoi saying, begging them to open, saying, please open the shops, we need to stop these protests. And people went around giving, weren't giving a blind bit of notice. Yesterday, the Iranian security forces firebombed all the shops in Rashid, a town, a city in Iran, and they blamed it on protesters. And basically, there is a narrative. it's a scorched earth narrative that if we're going to go which looks like we are we're going to leave the people of iran nothing but a barren wasteland and that is the mentality we're looking at there's the mentality and the ideology that they were trying to export and i always said this the way we were dealing with that regime was with sanctions and if you give sanctions you're expecting behavioral change but i always say there's no behavioral change here it's a bit it's a bit like it's a very british thing it's a bit like being attacked by a bunch of zombies and then trying to politely ask them if they would consider a vegan diet see that that that is the amount of change we're expecting so i think at the end of the day this is coming to an end if there's a way the west can intervene in some way i know america obama was very upset he had a chance to do that in the green movement in 2009 he didn't do it and he's come out publicly and he says I really regret that.

38:49But I think that this is last chance saloon. And for basically 87 million people who basically feel really surfaced to requirement, you know, I think that it's time to step up and save these people and give them what they want, which is freedom. Do you think that the crown prince, Reza Pallavi, will be involved in whatever comes next? Is he a serious player in all of this? Or is the West sort of projecting a fantasy onto him? He's very much a serious play. I mean, they're putting his voice on tannoys all over cities, asking people, the security forces, that they want to join the people to scan a QR code on a television program.

39:26And so I was tweeting that the revolution would be televised with QR codes, which is amazing. Whatever he is, he's someone who represents a concept. He represents national unity. He himself has said he doesn't want to form a monarchy. He wants to simply transition the country into a democratically elected secular government, there might be the possibility. People seem to be calling for a monarchy. And if there is a monarchy, it definitely will be a constitutional monarchy, like in Britain, alongside a secular government. But all the people know, the people are chanting his name. Of the 1 ,200 videos I've watched of protests, I would say about 900 of them, they're all saying, long live the king, Bahlebi will return.

40:07So he's the only kind of hope people have who will at least get the people, the people who are the leaders of that country in a secular way, are all in the prisons. So you open up the prisons, people come out, let them recover a bit. And then maybe whoever wants to run for government, they can campaign and they'll be democratically. But it's a legitimate worry, though. It's a legitimate worry that the country will go the way of Syria and, you know, Iraq and Afghanistan. But I've been very buoyed and hopeful with many videos I see from people inside Iran saying, hey, we've got this. Don't worry about it.

40:42The people on the streets more and more each day. There are things I'm seeing I've never seen. People with wheelchairs, people are taking their children out in the streets. The numbers are getting bigger and bigger. They're saying, leave it to us. Don't tell us what to do. We will deal with this. We don't need foreign intervention. We just need to be left alone to do it our way. And I think that is, what else can you say but support that? Amir Jalili, thank you very much indeed for joining us on The Daily Tea. Thank you. And we'll be back tomorrow at 5pm.

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