'Traitor Starmer must resign!' Chagos Islanders' fury at prison threat

0:02The Telegraph

0:10Chagos Islanders who have returned to their own homeland have been threatened by Keir Starmer with eviction and prison if they don't leave. We speak to the sister of one of the Chagossans who landed on the beach who tells us the Prime Minister is disgusting and must resign. Also, Reform's new Shadow Chancellor said he will diffuse the benefits bomb in a speech that could easily have been delivered by a Tory. We grilled both Robert Jenrick and Nigel Farage about whether their plans have dropped populism on purpose so they don't spook the markets. Welcome to The Daily Tea with me, Tim Stanley. And me, Camilla Tominy.

0:56Camilla, as everybody knows, the Labour government has negotiated the return, in inverted commas, of the Checos Islands to Mauritius. They were never part of Mauritius. The people who lived on the islands until the 1960s were kicked off as part of the process of establishing a US and UK air base. And those people, having suffered that great injustice, made far worse by having to live in Crawley near Gatwick Airport, those people have now been dealt a double injustice because the government has decided that that territory should go to Mauritius. Yes. Well, the Chagossians, great brave people that they are, who want to remain British, some of them have actually travelled to the island in an attempt to return.

1:37Now, what would be a British government's response to British people travelling to a British territory, which anyone would reasonably say they have a right to do? You'd hope it would be plant your flag, have a cup of tea and a roast dinner and enjoy yourselves. Especially given that this Prime Minister was formerly Director of Public Prosecution. and a great believer in human rights. It's at the very core of his being. And these are people who are exercising their human rights. Instead, the Labour government has handed that group of people an eviction notice which threatens them with up to three years in prison.

2:12This is believable, isn't it? There is such a contradiction at the heart of so many different Labour positions. We discussed it last week when Jim Ratcliffe was accused of being racist for suggesting that parts of Britain had been colonised. And yet there are some on the left that are perfectly happy with colonisation in the UK, provided it isn't abroad. A Labour government carried out a gross act of colonisation of the 1960s. And now another Labour government is denying a people's right to live on territory, which is by custom and law their own. So forcing indigenous people off their own lands and then threatening them with prison.

2:49Let's just look at the group that has gone there. So they include a man called Misley Mandarin, who is the island's elected first minister. although he's now been deposed. And he belongs to a group called the British Indian Ocean Territory Group. And we're going to speak to his sister in just a minute. But wasn't it striking? And we're also going to be talking about Robert Jenwick's press conference in the City of London. But it was striking as we sat in that great, what was it, the Plasterers Hall? Yes, that's right. Yes, near the London Wall. This wonderful hall. And suddenly Nigel Farage took to the stage, the Reform UK leader, and he kind of came out with this emergency statement on Chagos.

3:25As you know, the Chagossians were brutally evicted from the islands over 50 years ago. And what happened yesterday was a group of four of them, and remember these are British passport holders going on to British territory, went back to start to build a permanent settlement and to rebuild their lives. There are a further 300 Chagossians living in the United Kingdom ready to go at a moment's notice. notice once the settlement is viable. They were this morning, served an eviction notice on behalf of the British government and told that unless they comply, they could face up to three years in prison.

4:10Just think that through. You can cross the English Channel in a dinghy, dispose of your passport and iPhone at the 12-mile line, and we will put you up in a hotel, give you three meals a day, dental care and medical care. And your chances ever of being evicted are less than 2%. And yet, this attempt by a group of people to reclaim their birthright, their rights of national self-determination, are being thwarted or threatened by the British government this morning. What about their human rights, Lord hammer. What about them? What about their right to a family life? We are looking right now at every possible legal avenue we can to support these people and their brave quest to rebuild their lives as Chagossians.

5:05That was such a powerful point he made that people can come to this country and the entire state then shifts gear to helping them. Yes. Process and application to stay provide for them, support them, house them while they're doing that. And then even if the application fails, they can, of course, appeal. And even if they fail on that appeal, there's a pretty good chance they can slip through the net and stay in the country. It's as if the state is actively facilitating people coming here. And yet... And they're illegal, those people. Yeah, exactly. What they're doing is illegal. And yet when British citizens do something similar on British overseas territory, then the government shifts into a different gear, a very different gear.

5:53Yes. That threatens them with eviction and up to three years in prison. How on earth do they justify this? I mean, to add to the cruelty of this, they're threatening eviction to people who very often have housing problems. Yes, that's right. Because if you come back here from the Chacos Islands, you're not instantly bumped up some kind of housing list. So my impression, and we'll hear this from Vanessa in just a minute, is that people have now been forced out of their own lands and don't have anywhere to live in the UK as a consequence, which seems extraordinary. Well, let's speak now to Miss Kulu, who is head of the British Indian Ocean Territory or BIOT group.

6:29I remember meeting Vanessa when Trump visited the United Kingdom. She was standing outside Windsor Castle. Because the Chagossans wanted to appeal to the US president, who, let's be honest, has flip-flopped on this. This is the one thing Keir Starmer weirdly won't you turn on, even though I think it is probably his least popular policy of all time, because of his absence from the manifesto and because there's no mandate for it whatsoever. This is the one thing he doesn't do in about turn on. Can't get Jimmy Lai out of China, but has persuaded Donald Trump, the world's most stubborn man, that he should stick by the Chagos deal.

7:05Even though the Americans are concerned, this is the other part of this story, that it's bad for Western security because Mauritius is close to China and China would like to get America and Britain off those islands. Well, Vanessa, thank you very much for joining us on The Daily Tea. The head of the British Indian Ocean Territory Group and also the sister of one of the Chagossans who landed on the islands in recent hours. What did your brother and others attempt to do and why did they do it? The Pulse recently, since the Prime Minister, Kerry Starmer, started a negotiation with Mauritius and then want to give away our island without consulting our population, the Sargoshan and in general the British citizen, because the island is a British overseas territory and is a British homeland for the Sargoshan.

7:56And he's have an agenda and don't listen to anyone and want to give away our land to a foreign country, Mauritius, where the Sargoshan was living in poverty and in despair, and that required the Sargoshan to flee this country, Mauritius, to come to the UK. The government insists to give away our land to Mauritius and give billions of our tax contributions to Mauritius that we don't have no choice to go back to our island and then make known of our human rights. What's your reaction to this being orchestrated by Keir Starmer, Vanessa? This is a man whose entire career has been built on his human rights credentials.

8:47He's fought on behalf of displaced people. He's always talking about the importance of self-determination of individual groups. He has in the past been sort of anti-border control, and yet this is the draconian approach that he appears to be taken. I'm really upset, and I don't understand how a government who did not mandate to give away sovereignty and the population of UK didn't vote this prime minister to do such thing. And he's a human right lawyer himself, not protecting the British people. And our state is refused to see the chaos happening here in the UK about housing, about the day-to-day living of the people of his own country that he's in charge.

9:45But he closed his eyes. He just focused on giving money to other countries, helping other countries and don't want to help the people who put him in power. And that is disgusting. To be honest with you, there was 14 U-turns in parliament. And he's still doing the same mistake. This government needs to go. In 1960 to 1970, the same government at the time falsely removed my ancestor and my dad, who is in Shagos now. My dad. Now, 2025, you want to do that with me and my brother? No, we are the Sagoshin, we are British, and we will stand firm. My brother, he is in our country, our homeland. We're just waiting to go.

10:51We're returning. And all the British people should support this. Don't give our UK tax money to foreign countries. That$35 billion should remain with British people to help British people. for now and for the future of our generation. It stopped this unfairness. This unfairness needs to be stopped now. It's been continued for more than 55 years. This government needs to go. Kerry Starmer, you need to resign now. Please listen to me. Resign. You failed the British people. Vanessa, I can hear the passion in your voice. Tell me, members of your family have just recently travelled to the Checos Islands.

11:45Can you tell us why they did that, what their purpose was, what are they trying to achieve by doing that? We want to achieve to resolve the unfairness of the past, who has been done to my father, to my community, to my ancestor who died in poverty in Mauritius. we've done that for everyone in Mauritius at the moment who couldn't flee because of the chaos they are having in Mauritius and the injustice is still continue in Mauritius we are doing that to rewrite the the wrongdoing of the past to make it right and that the government need to listen if the government is not listening, I plead the British people to stand up for the British land.

12:39Well, they're clearly not listening because your family has travelled to the island and the government has now threatened them with eviction and even prison. What's your reaction to that, British citizens being threatened with prison for travelling to British territory? We have a First Minister who is a traitor in power in our own country. Only the people who can remove him is the British people because they vote him to be there. So now is our responsibility to stand up and then to say to that Prime Minister, Kerry Starmer, you failed your duty. You're a traitor to our country. Because you're giving away a British land without consulting the British Sargoshin and the British people, you're making your own agenda to use our UK taxpayer billion to give away in foreign countries without acknowledging what's happening in the UK.

13:52We have young people, single people, 35 and under, who can't afford living in a house. We're getting poorer and poorer. We can't afford for our children to be able to live in a way that they should be as British citizens. Their value has disappeared. So, Vanessa, you're saying you've been forced out of your own island land. And this has all been perpetrated by the Prime Minister, along with help from the Attorney General, Lord Herma and others in this great Chagos Islands giveaway. What's your brother planning to do? Because a foreign office spokesman has said this is just a stunt. He's not safe there.

14:37He needs to leave. Is he staying put? Vanessa, what's he going to do? My brother is resettling, going back to our island. He's not leaving. His address is Liloquin Jago Gossaperoz Banas. Everyone wants our address will be like that. We are waiting to join him. And we want to join him. We want to resettle. He's resettling. He's not moving. He's not moving. Vanessa Kulu, thank you very, very much indeed for joining us on The Daily Tea. Thank you. Thank you. Well, we mentioned that Nigel Farage spoke about Chagos at Reform's press conference this morning, but that didn't detract from Robert Jenrick taking to the stage for the first time as Shadow Chancellor.

15:33Tim, why don't we just keep the wristband on? It could have been like we looked like we'd all nighted and gone to a nightclub and then just had readmission in the morning for Reform's second press conference of the week. It's recess, so while all the other parties are either abroad or at home with their mistress, Reform have very cleverly decided to fill up the calendar with events, which means they get a monopoly of press attention. Indeed, they're filling the vacuum. And as somebody close to Robert Jenrick said to me before we got started, our audience isn't on a skiing holiday right now. No, they're not.

16:05No, they're on the sofa collecting PIP payments, which brings us to the surprising twist. Reform is going anti-welfare. The Economic Populist Party has decided that it's staking its credibility on being as fiscally conservative as the Conservatives. Yes. So here we had what we're calling Black Country Bob. We had the latest incarnation of Jenrick. He was once a Camerooni. He was a centrist who thought Brexit was a betrayal. He then went fully farage with his videos taking on fair dodgers and indeed not seeing any white faces in Birmingham. For a couple of weeks in the 80s, he was a Soviet commissar.

16:43Possibly. But right now, yes, he has returned to his roots. He's basically a white Lenny Henry today as he went through his backstory, his father Bill, touch of I'm the son of a toolmaker going on, as he presented us with this video as he was walking through the industrial estate where his father made his fortune. I haven't been back here in 20 years, at least. It hasn't changed that much. I used to do my homework in the office up there. We didn't have a computer at home. No computer at home. Try telling that to my girls. And on Saturdays, my sister and I used to clean the brass on the frets and we used to smell a brasso all weekend.

17:21My dad was born in Manchester, left school at 16, became an apprentice, worked in industry, worked his way up. He came here to the black country to run an old foundry. Rob has always had an accent, of course, but when talking about his roots, it does tend to dial up. And the A's became even harsher, so it was glass and working class. Yes. At one point, I swear, he slipped into a bit of Angela Rayner. The thing is about it is that actually, as we sat in that room and it filled with more and more people that, I'm sorry, largely resembled Tory boys with their slick back hair and their suits and their sort of sharp thinking and talking.

18:01This is a striking thing because we've been going to reform events for the last few years, right? And they're very often regional and the kind of people who show up are very definitely working class. decent ordinary Britons, rolled up cigarette, etc, etc. This room, we could have been at a Tory event. I mean, we were in the City of London, to be fair. We were in the City of London. We were on London Wall. Maybe they are locals, OK. But the average age was 25 to 30. It was heavily male. The hair had been very flopped. Yes. Floppy hair everywhere. Very floppy hair. And it all had a bit of a rah-rah feel, which makes one ask, Are we witnessing the tourification of the Reform Party?

18:41Is this what it looks like? Well, that was precisely your question, Tim, and we'll hear it and the answer that Robert Jenrick gave in just a minute. On this welfare about Ferret, it's interesting, isn't it? Because when I interviewed Robert Jenrick when he was in the Conservatives, he had made this suggestion, just to set up your question, that the idea of scrapping the two-child benefit cap, albeit for working parents who are British citizens, that he made this joke about Farage having come up with this down the pub, you know, back of a fag packet type policies. What's interesting is they have gone in there and the Krugers and the Jenrics and the Bravermans of this world do seem to be having an influence.

19:22That was a bit of an albatross around Farage's neck. It led to accusations that he was actually a bit too socialist. You claim to be a righty, you claim to be a thatch right with this welfare policy along with renationalising water boards and steel and all the rest of it. So it's probably quite clever politics to ditch this policy, which wasn't particularly liked. Not popular. I don't think the reform fan base, they understand the need to increase the birth rate and they're worried about the birth rate only increasing when it comes to immigrants coming to this country and not so-called indigenous Brits, which is probably an argument for another day.

19:57It's quite good, actually, to be able to climb down on that policy. He's obviously said, well, we haven't got enough money, but actually just blame it on Jenrick if it encounters any criticism. And he also said crucially that they will keep the Office of Budget Responsibility. Yes. And they'll also maintain the independence of the Bank of England. Under reform, the bank will remain independent. The bank has served our country for over 300 years and has been a model for central banks the world over. But the bank must perform better. Its core mission is simple. Keep bills down. And yet for 52 of the last 56 months, inflation has sat stubbornly over its 2 % target.

20:41Now, that's not all the bank's fault. Furlough played a part, as has some of the excessive public pay settlements. But the bank has taken its eye off the ball. So we will strip the bank of distractions which have been loaded onto it. And that includes the requirement for the bank to help the transition to net zero. And because we're confident about the approach that we're going to take, we are very happy to have others mark our homework. Everything reform promise will be fully costed. Accordingly, we will retain the Office for Budget Responsibility. Look, it is far from perfect. So rather than abolish it, we will reform it.

21:25The OBR has consistently overestimated the short-term benefits of migration, and they've downplayed its long-term consequences. They've underestimated the dynamic effect of cutting taxes. So we will break up that cosy consensus and ensure it has proper diversity of opinion. We'll run competitions for superforecasters to join the body and pay proper competitive salaries to those who can most accurately forecast the impact of Treasury decisions. Those are two things which the more roundhead Liz Truss right wing do not like. Exactly. Well, let's hear my question and I'll then explain where I'm coming from on this one.

22:08Rob, when you were a Conservative MP, you said that Nigel must have, quote, had won too many pints before pledging to abolish the two-child cap. I can't believe that's the case. Well, you've clearly won the battle on this policy. So does this U-turn plus keeping the OBR and keeping bank independence represent the end of populism and reform and the tourification of the party? And on the policy itself, you say you want to be the party of alarm clock Britain. But as you know, working families also benefit from lifting the benefit cap, which is predicted to draw hundreds of thousands of people out of relative poverty.

22:48Suella Braverman, when she was a Conservative MP, described the cap as unfair and said it had pushed people into poverty. So can you today persuade Suella Braverman that she's wrong? Well, let me be clear about this. The policy that the party adopted was well-meaning and was focusing support upon British workers and their kids. And we all want to see those people be able to have families and lead good lives. The issue is that our economy is in a mess, mainly as a result of disastrous decisions that have been taken, including latterly by Rachel Reeves. So we've got to live in the world as it is.

23:27Unfortunately, we can't afford to do this right now through welfare. There will be other ways in which we can help support and encourage families to prosper in the years ahead. But it's not going to be through welfare. That's why we've made this decision. It's a tough one, but it's an important one. And it shows our intent that reform is not a party of welfare. We're going to be bringing forward serious reforms in the months ahead to bring down that welfare bill, help people back into the workplace and ensure fairness for working people once again. Again, am I being unfair by saying they've backtracked on scrapping the OBR and ending Bank of England independence?

24:06I suspect there's actually never were a concrete reform policy. Someone will have to check. But one should note that, OK, they're not going to get rid of those things, but they do intend to significantly reform them. So the issue with the OBR, they say, is the personnel and the metrics that it uses to base its predictions upon. So, for instance, the OBR has greatly overestimated the benefits of immigration. Yes. Right. And some of his predictions have been way off. And Rick kept repeating us that, according to one analysis, it was like the second worst economic forecaster. And Reform's argument is that part of the reason why that happens is because it's been stuffed with Blairites who bring to it their own prejudices.

24:45They're all lefties. He said it's a retirement home for the Resolution Foundation, which is a left-leaning economic think tank. Yeah, exactly. And same goes with the Bank of England. It can maintain its independence, but what it's required to look at and consider must alter its personnel, must alter. So in other words, don't scrap these things, radically reform them. Also, did I detect the fingerprints of Dominic Cummings in the suggestion that they should employ some super forecasters? Right. Oh, yes. That could outdo the economists. And set competitions, have a competition to invite forecasters to compete for the forecasting rights.

25:22Whenever I hear that in politics, it always makes me think of Tony Hart and the reader's paintings section. Hand in your paintings, hang in your forecast. It's going to be reforms... This is a rather good forecast from Jenny in Kent. That's right. Reform's got talent. I like what she's done with inflation there. Reform's got talent. Nigel Farrow, the head judge. We're looking for the next Nostradamus. Please apply. I think this is a turning point in the history of the Reform Party. Reform is defined by Brexit. it emerges from the Brexit party, and by its opposition to immigration, has very little to say about economics.

25:56But because of those two issues, it's essentially nationalist, and that founded an audience among working class Britons. And in the last few years, what few economic policies it's had, have tended to play to that constituency. And perhaps the definitive one was, we'll abolish the two child benefit cap for British working families. So that cleverly places you in between the Tory position of keep the cap and Labour's position of get rid of it for everyone. And it suggests what matters to us is not necessarily pounds, shillings and pence, but raising the birth rate, helping British people and making sure that poverty is lifted for our voters.

26:38And if you get rid of that policy, then I'm not sure what the distinctive reform offer is to working class people. Now, as I pointed out in that, Generic keeps talking about alarm clock Britain. I loathe the phrase. I have an alarm clock. I just set it for very late. Yeah, you're a snooze button person. Having an alarm clock does not mean you're a particularly hardworking person. And also, you know what? A single mum at home who relies upon benefits has an alarm clock too. She's got to be up to feed and look after the kids, right? The idea that there is a Britain which is just asleep 24 hours a day and then there's a Britain which is working really hard.

27:17I just really dislike. Some people might still be in their pyjamas in the day, if not asleep. Well, that's their lifestyle choice, as far as I'm concerned. But my point is that once Labour lifted the child benefit cap, which as reform's old policy reflects, because it was directed at working families, working families also benefited from, and we're talking here about an estimated 560 ,000 households getting about 440 quid extra a month. So now that Labour has lifted that cap, when reform comes in, if it reimposes the cap, they're taking£440 a month away from half a million people who I would wager are likely to vote reform.

28:02Because if you look at polling, reform tends to do better the poorer and less schooling you have. Yes. So I come back to it. If reform is truly an economic populist movement of the working class, then I find it strange that as it tries to define itself as being ready for government, it begins by throwing a policy aimed at the working class under the bus. No, but I think reform sees a distinction between the working poor and the poor on benefits. Fine. And they want to appeal to the first category. And the first category is as angry about people in their neighbourhood on benefits, It's not working while they go out and do a daily grind.

28:42Especially if they're foreign born. Fair enough. This is exemplified by the bricklayers filming the videos on Instagram, having a laugh about, I have to get up at six in the morning so that I can keep people on benefits in Britain. That's who they're appealing to, knowing that there's also red wall to blue wall appeal because the middle class is to get up and work for a living, albeit perhaps from their posh front rooms on their very expensive computers, also hate people who they think are on the take. So I take what you're saying. I think the more fundamental question for reform, and then this leads to the question that we then asked Nigel Farage as he went to the back of the room after Jenrick had spoken for quite great length to answer a few questions, is Jenrick saying, well, we're going to conserve the good things, but be radical on the bad things.

29:28So I just felt that we sat there listening to a speech that either a reformer or a conservative could make. And there was no distinction really in any of the rhetoric that we've ever heard from the right. But that reform will just have to make this a question of delivery. Jenrick was delivering a conservative speech. I'm sorry, he was. Farage disagreed with me on this later. Yeah, I agree, yes. And this is all about, well, can you implement it? But we still can't escape the fact, Tim, that we had Jenrick disowning Liz Truss, even though she was the most radical Tory on economics ever in recent years.

30:03And then we had Nigel Farage having previously supported Truss. Don't tell me that Farage isn't a subscriber to Trussonomics. So we asked him about this afterwards. Can we clear up something? Robert Jenrick there massively distancing himself from Liz Truss. Yeah, that's not you. No, I know, but when she came out with her mini-budget, you said on X, this is the best Conservative budget since 1986. I think much of it was. What's changed? She made one big mistake. I didn't see it immediately. Didn't cut spending. All the other ideas, such as IR35 reform, so many things that I'd talked about for 20 years, appeared in that budget, apart from the one fundamental error, not cutting spending.

30:44Although Robert Jenrick, in his speech there, is conserving a lot of Conservative economic policy. on behalf of reform, don't you think? No. Maintenance of the OBR, continuing to argue for lower taxes, now aping the Conservatives by saying that that two-child benefit cap should be scrapped? Well, no. I mean, I don't think anybody for one moment could listen to what he just said about radical, radical supply-side reform, radical changes to panning laws, and think that bore any relation to 14 years of Conservative government. Thank you very much. Thank you. That's the dishonesty here. Basically, I think reform is scared of frightening the markets.

31:21So they've had to parachute in Jenrick because he's probably a more comforting presence to the city boys because he's got governance experience. Notwithstanding the fact that, by the way, Richard Tice and Zia Yusuf, unlike Jenrick, have both run their own very successful companies. So they could have been better bets. But this was all about because it's all very well these parties saying be radical, not if the markets are going to eat you up and spit you out. Yes. You don't want to make the mistake of Andy Burnham saying that we don't need to be constrained by the bond markets because you just are.

31:54Yes. And the speech was boring and it was boring on purpose. Yes. Because it was about reassuring us that this is a man who will stick to certain fiscal rules. Where have we heard all this before? I just think it's a pity. As I raised in my question, Suella Braverman came out against the two child benefit cap back in the day. And a lot of small C conservatives did that because Brexit had shown them there was a lot of poverty in the country. There were a lot of people crying out for help. And there was a sense that the welfare system got its priorities wrong. It was discouraging people from doing the right thing, which I would say is having kids and going to work.

32:30Some of the benefits affected by the cap include tax credits. Yes. So for some small-c conservatives, opposition to the benefits cap was part of their own philosophical journey towards the Red War and towards reflecting the material needs of the people affected by Brexit. I personally think it's a pity that they threw away their nuanced position of scrap the cap for British working families. I think that was the right place to be. And I think it's a pity they've lost such a definitive edge over their opponents. Although I think they're just looking at it from a macro political point scoring point of view.

33:09So the Tories can now no longer say, oh, reform are just like Labour. Look, they're not bringing down the welfare bill. I think if you just polled people in the street and said, should welfare come down? Regardless of the very intelligent points you've made about the cap and the nuances of it. They just want it to come down. That was all illustrated quite viscerally, frankly, by Jenrick standing up and talking about people claiming motability cars for tennis elbow. and why are people on benefits for mild ADHD and autism? We should emphasise that he clearly wanted to put a line through the benefits cap and move on quickly.

33:43What he really wanted to talk about was making it much tougher for people to claim benefits for conditions like mild anxiety. Our benefit system is broken. That's not fair, that's not right, and it is an economic and a moral disaster. That's why I commit to you today, that if we win the next election, reform will diffuse the benefits bomb that is set to bankrupt Britain. We are developing the most comprehensive plan for welfare reform in British politics. We will stop those with mild anxiety, depression and similar conditions from claiming disability benefits and instead do everything we can to encourage them into the dignity of work.

34:31The other thing I think that I took from it is, I mean, him saying the words fiscal discipline, which frankly is and always has been a conservative construct. I know Rachel Reeves has tried to claim it for herself. Nobody believes it as spending and borrowing sores under Labour. We've had a real progression away from the original contract with the people at the last general election. Do you remember£90 billion worth of tax cuts that Richard Tice put together when he thought he was going to be the next chancellor under a potential Nigel Farage government? That's all been torn up. You know, we can't afford that.

35:06Everything's coming back to you. Ask them any question, well, we can't afford it. This was a policy-like press conference, let's be perfectly honest, because as they keep on saying, we're not going to make up policy on the hoof. We imagine that people in the background like now not just Danny Kruger, but we hear that James Orr, who is an academic who's very close to Nigel Farage, is coming in and filling that gap. Now Zia Youssef has moved on to managing what he might do with the Home Office. God help him. But I just think, you know, we're moving now just into a direction of everything being pretty safe.

35:36And they're saying we want to break up the status quo. But no, actually, this speech indicated that they're maintaining a lot of it. But James Orr, like Danny Kruger, are very much from the national conservative wing of conservatism, which I just thought was all supposed to be about economic populism and putting the people first before the bankers and the city. And I don't hear that here. There are two ways of stimulating the economy, if that's what we need to do. It's the right-wing supply-side method of Richard Tice's tax cuts, or it's the left-wing Keynesian method of raise people's benefits.

36:11Well, both have just been taken off the table by Rob Jenrick. So what you're left with, or I could make out, is some regulatory reform, some shaving of spending, some shaving of taxes. But otherwise, we are intellectually occupying exactly the same space as Mel Stride and Rachel Reeves, with the exception that Mel Stride will abolish your stamp duty. Yes. And Rachel Reeves will up your benefits and pay the public sector more. So if immigration continues to go down, if Brexit is no longer a live issue in three or four years time, tell me what is the signature reform policy that tells me if I vote for this, then a poorer person is going to be substantially better off very quickly because the other parties are coming up with them.

37:04But actually reform, because it's getting so tantalisingly close to government, is shying away from them. We'll be back tomorrow, 5pm.

37:32Thank you.