‘Treacherous, disloyal and duplicitous’: The explosive new book about Harry and Meghan

0:02The Telegraph.

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1:18The Daily Tea Tim Stanley.

1:25Camilla: Harry and Meg and Tim, they're the gifts that keep on giving. And now a new book by Tom Bauer, who joins us in the Daily Show studio. Hello, Tom. What we love about this is the book is only just been published or about to be published, and Harry and Meg and have already slated it. Shall we read their response? They're calling it a deranged conspiracy and melodrama. You could perhaps quote the spokesperson. The full statement goes on to say, this is someone who has publicly stated, the monarchy, in fact, depends on actually obliterating the Sussexes from our state of life. Language that speaks for itself.

1:59He, Tom Bauer, has made a career out of constructing ever more elaborate theories about people he does not know and has never met. Those interested in facts will look elsewhere. Those seeking deranged conspiracy and melodrama know exactly where to find him. Well, as a fan of deranged conspiracy and melodrama... Tell us more, Tom Bauer. more.

2:22Camilla: What's your response to their response to the book? Well, I wonder what deranged melodrama is. I mean, I was very grateful for them to knock the book because it pushed the book to number one on Amazon. But I think the idea that you can only write about people you know is just ridiculous because otherwise there'd be no history written. But more to the point, the Sussexes only will talk to people who repeat their own narrative. Yes. And who they can control. So the idea that you could get the truth from the Sussexes, his contradiction. Hang on now. Meghan's truth is a truth all by itself. That is true.

2:58Her truth is the truth.

3:00Camilla: But you could perhaps make the argument that you might be slightly fixated with the couple because you only just came out with Revenge, your 2022 book, laying bare the truth around Megxit, as you perceived it to be. And now we're only a couple of years later and you've come out with Betrayal. So are you a bit obsessed with these two? No, no. I wrote two books about Maxwell and two books about Richard Branson and have written other books repeated. But the point about them is it's a brand new book. It's a brand new story. Because where revenge ended, they were at the cusp of great fame and fortune.

3:33There'd be the Netflix series. Harry's book was about to come out. She was about to launch herself as a domestic goddess. Everything looked terrific. So in that sense, in 21, when I finished the book, they were really about to take the world by storm, Hollywood by storm. My book now is about the last five years when they're paying the price for betrayal, which is namely that they are desperate. They have lost, they haven't got any more programs lined up. They're running out of money. They've lost their credibility. They're very, very anxious to return to Britain to resume their royal titles, because we've got to revalidate them, because they are diminished as people.

4:12And so the whole book is a very different story and a new story. And I think the reason why people are interested is because they're intrigued by the end game about the Sussexes. I mean, divorce, desperation, debt, everything.

4:27Camilla: Hang on, we don't know that's going to happen yet. We've got no sign yet that the marriage is in trouble. I appreciate there were some who witnessed the nuptials in Windsor in 2018 and leaned across to the person next to him and said, I'll give it a year or five, whatever. There are cynics out there. It's lasted longer than that. I mean, people might have said that about my own marriage and it's lasted more than 20 years. I digress. I am going to just put this to you, Tom Bauer, so you can answer it straight on. Anita Singh described revenge back in 2022 when it was published as a comprehensive takedown of Meghan.

5:00Camilla: Have you just got a problem with Meghan? You don't like her very much. No, I don't like her. Right. Is that a problem? Are you objective? Not at all. Are you objective on Meghan? I never like anyone I write about. I've written 29 books. I don't write about people who like me or I like them. My whole criteria for writing is not whether I like them, but these are people who are famous, seek to influence us, seek to profit from their fame, and seek in one way to manipulate their image as they stay up the greasy pole. And my whole profession has been to pump the bubble, to actually pump the balloon and show the truth rather than the conjectured story which they would like us all to accept.

5:39So, of course, I don't deny at all I don't like her. I think she is a person who's done huge damage to the royal family, has been deeply, deeply inaccurate on many issues, and is of absolutely no value either to the royal family or society. But she just sucks from it. She takes from it and exploits it and profits from it. So I don't excuse, I make no excuses about that. I didn't like Richard Branson or Robert Maxwell or Tony Blair, but it doesn't detract from the book. All it does is they get loads of books saying how wonderful they are. I write the opposite. I try to find it. I write the truth, not what they want.

6:15Okay. Well, one bubble that you pop is the idea that the Sussexes are motivated by concern for humanity. Right. So an anecdotal example. Early in Betrayal, we get an account of a speech by Meghan at an event by a charity called One Young World. in which she spoke almost exclusively about herself and used the word I nearly 50 times in 10 minutes. Ella Robertson, whose mother co-founded the charity, which tries to inspire young leaders, says, she's tone deaf to others. She just can't do what we wanted. She's toxic. Would you describe Megan then as narcissistic? Absolutely. I'll give you another example, which comes out in the book and wasn't serialized, of her tone deafness.

6:59So she went to Columbia at the invitation of the vice president a woman whose background is an extremely poor, left-wing woman, who hoped that Megha would contribute to her charities for children. And in a speech to a group of young people, she talked about how women must find their voice, how Colombian women need to actually be more powerful. And there she is sitting next to the vice president who came up literally from an impoverished mining village whose own children had to be sent out of Colombia because they were threatened by death. and she is completely obsessed by herself and then goes into how she's very proud of Lilibet, her daughter who's finding her voice.

7:40I mean, she is so self-obsessed. She's so unbelievably immune to anyone else's feelings. And that is, of course, why, in my view, she invents issues like she did about this whole conversation about the colour of Archer's skin. Everything is done to focus back on her. Everything is about her. The generosity is only about if I express philanthropic views, how you reflect on me. And I think that's fine for her, except that she's doing it at the expense of our royal family. And that, I think, is unforgivable. And that is why I've taken her on, because I'm a monarchist. I believe the monarchy is critical to Britain's survival.

8:21And everything she has done since she inveigled her way into the royal family was warned exactly what was expected of her as the Duchess of the wife of Herari has been to undermine the very people who gave this third rate actress credibility and status. And that, I think, is unforgivable.

8:41Camilla: Does she also operate at the expense of her own husband? There are quite a few references in here, in this book, to him arriving at events, scowling at one point. There's a suggestion that Meghan finishes his sentences. Is that right, Tom? Well, I think that was born out of Gill in this Variety piece where Netflix just said they're fed up with her. Exactly. I mean, they will deny that. I mean, a spokesman at every turn denies all this, says it's actually quite misogynistic and sexist to suggest that in some way Meghan is Harry's keeper. I mean, I'll just give my impression of Harry having worked on the Royal Beat for many, many years and observed him.

9:21Camilla: You know, Harry was always a round peg in a square hole. He was always railing against the system. He was always acutely aware of his lower positioning on the pecking order, and he really resented it because he felt like he had the star quality. And during a period of his life, he really did. You were much keener on covering his events than William's because William, by comparison, is introverted and less interesting. Meghan comes along and she gives Harry's sentiments rocket fuel but he was already considering himself as an outsider. Also, to be fair, a little bit like his brother, they're both quite stubborn, the Wales princes.

10:00Camilla: They're both very keen on sort of ploughing their own course. Harry could really dig his heels in. So to say that he's been completely manipulated by this woman, I don't think tells the full story. Well, I think there's a sort of a decision. First of all, of course, they're stubborn because they're privileged. Everyone is fawning at them. Secondly, I think that Meghan was outraged on the meritocracy that Kate, rather than she, should be queen. I'm absolutely convinced I've heard that from others. She couldn't understand why, when she was so more blessed with intelligence and ambition and hard work, why she shouldn't be queen.

10:39On the other hand, I do believe that she was the best thing that Harry could have found. I think for him to have found a Meghan who pandered to all his insecurities, to all his depressions and everything, was a wonderful release for him. And it would have been a marriage made in heaven if it had just been about the marriage. But, of course, Meghan never intended to be a dutiful duchess opening hospitals in Shropshire. She always intended to go back to Hollywood and use her title to pursue her career. and persuaded Harry, as I showed in this book, and persuaded her they could only find happiness in California.

11:17And they went there and undoubtedly at the beginning it was absolutely brilliant and they earned a lot of money. But they have now reached the point at which the price of betrayal of the royal family is, as I say, the endgame, which is not a rosy for them. From your research, what do you think William thinks about Meghan? I think he's appalled by her. I think that he's shocked by her duplicity. I think he's shocked by her behaviour. And I mean the fact that she pretended to want to join the royal family and be part of the team. And then what she said in the Oprah Winfrey interviews in the Netflix series.

11:56I think he was shocked that Harry was allowed, because Meghan did read the manuscript of his autobiography, say the things that they did about the private. I mean, whether William was circumcised and going, well, those are just dreadful things to put by two people who said they had to flee to California for privacy to invade other people's privacy. But I think that William and Kate, in my view, have been enormously encouraged by one aspect of the Andrew debacle, that everyone was saying you couldn't take away Andrew's titles without an act of parliament and everything else. And suddenly they invented letters patent to take them away.

12:36A great constitutional fudge. I think Harry realises that once William becomes king, he's in danger of losing his titles. Really? Absolutely.

12:45Camilla: Isn't that a declaration of brotherly war? Well, there is a declaration of brotherly war, but it was declared by Harry. I mean, who did it first? How would it benefit William to retaliate in that way? So far, we've had recollections may vary, and we've had basically a dignified silence from the Prince and Princess of Wales. They're just getting on with it now. They don't have the right of reply. They're never going to go on Oprah. They're certainly not going to have their own Netflix series. And last time I checked, neither William nor Kate is planning to write a tell-all autobiography. So they've just taken the decision to rise above.

13:19Camilla: Then when people like me write things like, well, should they reconcile, you get people close to them briefing. think, why would they? They're A, worried that if they do reconcile with Harry and Meghan, he'll end up in some People magazine article somewhere, or indeed in somebody's hagiography. And second of all, why would they want to get sucked back into the drama? I mean, it really did affect both of their emotional and perhaps even physical health. They don't want to go there, but it's quite something else to suggest that he'll become king and then completely cut his brother off? Because as they run out of money, they're going to monetize their royal status, as they're going to do very shortly in Australia with a 17 pound ahead at the health farm.

14:06Soon she'll be advertising mayonnaise. I mean, there's a desperation by them because they need money. Their cost of living is huge. Status means everything in Hollywood. And I think that who knows how their two children will behave. And I think that that is part of the reason why they have now stopped talking about the royal family, because they fear, having seen what happened to Andrew, the same to them. I think the threat may well silence them. But if they're not silenced, if she appears in Australia, for example, in a couple of weeks' time as Her Royal Highness, which she's not allowed to do, breaking in any case the standing agreement with the Queen that she wouldn't monetise her title.

14:48I think at some stage, the royal family will have to say, enough is enough. Let us cut this before it gets any worse.

14:57Camilla: Just to explain the Australia gig, you can go and pay for a table, I think it's 1 ,700 Australian dollars. No, pounds. Pounds, is it? Where you sit and you're in close proximity to Meghan and then you're entitled to have a group selfie with her. Right. And it's basically a paid event to have access to the Duchess of Sussex. Right. Right. Presidential candidates do that all the time. Sure. It's not unprecedented. It is for a member of the royal family. It is, yes. But then, of course, the royals can make money out of their enormous endowments and all that stuff. And they also do monetize themselves.

15:30I mean, you can go to Buckingham Palace down the road and there's a gift shop full of tat that's got the royal moniker all over it. I mean, it's not entirely unusual. On the contrary. I mean, Prince Charles did it all the time. You paid to sit next to him for his charity events at Dunfrey's house and at Highgrove. and that is absolutely true, but the money went to the charity. Right. It didn't go into their pockets. Yes. That's the big difference. Do we know what kind of contact Harry currently has with Charles? I would think none at all.

15:57Camilla: I mean, they did have a brief reconciliation. 54 minutes. That was when Prince Harry came over as part of his trial against Associated Newspapers. That sure wasn't planned because I was with someone from the palace two days earlier, a pretty senior person who said they wouldn't meet. I think it was decided at the very last minute. OK, do we think that one of the reasons that there remains a divide between father and son, notwithstanding everything that Harry said about King Charles in Spare and beyond, is also because of Queen Camilla? Harry accused Queen Camilla of leaving bodies in the street when she first...

16:30Camilla: Well, it's this idea that Harry's never got over his father's adultery. Oh, I see. That Camilla was the third person in the marriage. She made Diana's life a living hell. and then because a huge briefing campaign took place after Diana's death to rehabilitate Camilla's image, Harry says Camilla was briefing against him, Camilla was briefing against William and all the rest of it. Now, that may well have been true and we know Mark Bolland, the PR guru and spin doctor, did have a role in trying to make Camilla anything other than public enemy number one as she was once named by the mail. But we hear from your book, Tom, that Camilla told a friend Meghan's brainwashed Harry.

17:11Well, the friend told me that Camilla said it to that person. There's no doubt she said it. And it's true. But he was a very willing victim. I mean, he wanted to be enwrapped by this wonderful, wonderful woman. And that's why I say she was a blessing for him. But my feeling about Camilla is, you know, when you get to that age, that sort of woman doesn't bear enormous grudges. I mean, I don't think she'd be the absolute block on reconciliation. She would say to Charles, it's not going to work out well, Charles. Do what you want. But in my view, give it a pass. Well, who's the block?

17:50Camilla: William? I think William's the block. And also the fact that Charles standing with Harry, he knows it can only end badly. Invited to design her own coat of arms, you write that Meghan apparently asked for a songbird with its tongue cut out. This has got echoes of Oprah asking her to him, were you silent or silenced? Poor Meghan can't have her own voice, although from memory, we didn't stop hearing from Meghan throughout her time in the royal family. And that was what's interesting about that. Of course, you can tell who the source of that is, that it would happen even before they were married.

18:29She goes to get the coat of arms before. and that was an astonishing encounter. There's one thing which no one's picked up because they haven't read the book yet, but in the early stages of the book is the evidence of a person who is very, very famous, whose job was requested by the monarch to teach Meghan about the royal family, what was expected of her. And that person met her every three to four weeks at Kensington Palace. And at the end of about four sessions, five sessions, predicted it was all going to end very bad. And that person is absolutely impeccable judge. And that is the whole issue, really, what people aren't picking up, which you get this sort of information now, you wouldn't have got access five years ago, that there never was a chance that she was going to stay.

19:18She was always going to cause trouble. And I think it just shows how savvy she is to go to the garter and say, I want a songbird, we were silenced. That really will show exactly what she already anticipated. And it's malicious. That is the point. The royal family, in my view, went bent over backwards to help her. Gradually all of them realised it was going to end badly, but for Harry's sake went through it. But I mean as well...

19:46Camilla: Well, sources close to Meghan will deny all this and say, no, she ended up with a nightingale instead, was perfectly happy with it. She said that? Well, I think there's constant pushback, Tom Bower, to everything that you write about this couple. Well, Garton, the pretty good eyewitness. Well, all right, but in the interest of balance. A couple more questions on just this aspect of whether Harry is indeed emasculated. He changed his phone number without telling anyone. Many of his friends couldn't get through to him, yeah. OK. And this intrigues us just because Anita Singh, our colleague, the arts and entertainment editor, who's read the book, Bower has gone to the trouble of counting the number of times the royal appendage is mentioned.

20:25Camilla: Are you saying that Harry is obsessed with his own penis? You make the point that in Spare it's referenced eight times in terms of the word penis and six times for Todger. I only ask that because is there a sexual... Is there something going on here? No, no, but on Kindle it's easy to find out the number of times. I mean, I got a whole... You know, I got into one of the editors at Random House who tells the story, which I think is fascinating in the book, of writing of Spare. and in the end, of course, it's the biggest selling non-fiction biography in the history of books, modern history. I mean, it's an extraordinary success.

21:03But Moirina is very interesting, the ghostwriter, because actually he's writing about his own life. He's putting his own life into Harry's life. That is his style, that is what he does. And actually, in the New Yorker article he then wrote after, he was actually shocked by the vituperation he received of his work. but there were loads of problems in writing the book which you'd have to read my book to realise but that is really the issue it's not me who's obsessed but Harry had to read the book he read the book for his own audio version so as he read it and all these mistakes like when he heard the Queen Mother's death etc that I was at school he read it eight times and never once thought to himself well this is ridiculous

21:51Camilla: I've described anonymously in the book as somebody hateful and venal who got everything wrong. And I think he's actually confused me with another journalist because I did get one story right, which was the fact that he was dating Meghan in the first place. And you could possibly argue that I got something else right and that Kate was left in tears after a brisbane dress fitting, even though Meghan says the opposite. Coming up, Netflix, Send to Bali, and will there ever be a royal reconciliation?

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23:03I want to ask about Netflix. Yes. What do we know about their relationship with their production team? Because these are the people they work with closely on a regular basis. Well, I found one person. I mean, the problem is with all these getting access is they're all absolutely tied down to silence with these non-disclosure agreements, which are pretty ferocious. But I did find, again, a source who was actually inside the whole Netflix thing. She tightly, tightly controlled. I mean, phenomenally. and Liz Garbus who made this after they got rid of the first director, very accomplished director, very, I'm told very upset at the end with what came out because of their interference but it was there, I mean, Meghan thought it would be the love story what she did what she allowed it to become, which I think was unforgivable, was a tirade against the racist royal family, that Britain was a slave-loving colour prejudiced, exploited people, and it was by bringing these three very left-wing black historians, which Meghan actually agreed with because she also recommended Malcolm X as one of her great heroes, and Malcolm X was a frightful anti-Semitic Marxist.

24:23And so the Netflix series, I think, although it's got a huge audience and was a very successful streamer, was reprehensible. And the story within it was, the way it was made, you have to read the book, was very, very controlled by them and by their own producer.

24:44Camilla: You say here that staff were made to sign NDAs and instructed never to speak to the Sussexes unless they were directly addressed by the couple. It's also been suggested that they insisted on being referred to as ma 'am and sir. Well, that's what I'm told by a credible insider who was working on it. Okay. Why do you think they had such a high turnover of staff? I think she's deeply unpleasant. I mean, I think that she is hugely demanding the evidence presented in Vanity Fair and the Spotify experience. Well, tell us about that. When she constantly silenced people, didn't give people credit for what they'd done and made them feel...

25:27So they actually... Vanity Fair published a story of how the two of them had to go to therapy having experienced employment by Meghan.

25:34Camilla: We know of the existence of a bullying dossier at Buckingham Palace against the couple, particularly Meghan, which the Sussexes vehemently deny. We've never seen it. It's in a safe somewhere down a state corridor. The alternative narrative would be, well, why shouldn't they be like this? Regardless of their success or failure with regard to what they've subsequently produced or not produced for Netflix, they are massive stars. They are a global phenomenon. They are extremely famous. They were once royals. This is Princess Diana's son you're dealing with here. Why shouldn't they throw their weight around?

26:10Because I think they're falling stars. I think that's the whole issue, that they were globally and they are globally known. But because of the way they behaved in the last four or five years and there's a price of betrayal, their reputation and their status and their fortunes are crumbling. And that's what makes this book particularly interesting, because I didn't know Variety would come out with this story this week.

26:35Camilla: Just to explain it, the Variety story is sort of inside the fading Hollywood dream. And it talks about how the relationship with Netflix is disintegrated, because although the original Fly on the Wall documentary did really well, we then had With Love, Megan, which was much parodied, including by us, Tim, you know, her in somebody else's kitchen, wrapping up bottles of wine in Japanese scarves. Yes, trying to feed potpourri to children, that sort of thing. That sort of thing, putting floral garnishes on rainbow fruit platters. Yes, hanging a tiara from the lights and things like that. And Harry's there in the background, like, as ever, playing a cameo role in her attempt to reinvent herself as Martha Stewart.

27:15Now, to be fair, Tom, some were quoted in the variety story saying,

27:20Camilla: do you know what, they do have a lot of reach, regardless of whether or not you thought that that fly on the wall of her being Martha Stewart was a bit ridiculous. Everything that she features in the background sells out immediately. Let's talk about the jam. How much of this bloody jam has she actually sold? Very little. Well, hang on a minute. It's been reported she's sold£27 million. Absolutely not true. How do you know that? Well, because we went to the factory that produces it. Did you? I went to the bottle manufacturer. And, you know, the limitation, they never had that much. the real story of course is there are fast stocks of unsold jam I mean you mustn't believe everything they put out no of course not the idea 27 million I don't even think that Maman still has 27 million Bon Maman to be fair it is about 30 quid a jar well I think to be fair Maman is at the last count do we eat it or inject it?

28:15Camilla: I don't know it's quite runny so I think you could inject it No, no, that's why it's not called jam in America. It's called spread because it's so runny. Oh, come on. And you've got to remember as well that the whole selling idea was she picked the strawberries in her own garden and then you saw a shot with Lilibet as she stirred the making of jam in her kitchen. We don't think she really makes this jam, do we, Tom? Well, that's what she suggested. OK, but do you not think she has huge commercial worth as somebody who, for whatever their reason, people want to emulate in dress, in kitchen utensils?

28:48Camilla: in crockery, in allotment building. Let's just say there's also a big black middle-class market for this kind of lifestyle. And she appeals to that. If she did, then she'd be selling her stuff and Netflix wouldn't have dumped her. I think with clothes, as you'll see in the book, she actually, for the Colombian tour, changed her clothes four, five, even six times a day. Sounds reasonable, just like Tim. Each day, each time, they'll be on her website where you could get that particular item of clothing and a link to buying it, and of course she got a commission. So I think on clothes you'd be right, but it's limited.

29:24But there's no doubt when she wore a handbag or whatever accessory, it sold immediately. But there's a big difference with mass producing of jams and wines and biscuits and that, which Netflix themselves have said. They've got$10 million of the stuff marooned in a warehouse because they can't get rid of it.

29:44Camilla: But then the devil's advocate, in all this would also say, OK, so she gets a freebie to Disneyland. What A-lister doesn't? OK, she turns up at Paris Fashion Week because she manages to get an invitation by the head of Balenciaga. Yeah, why not? Why not actually take a 20 grand a night penthouse suite in Paris if you can, you know, make hay for the week? This is what most celebrities do. She's an online influencer. You have to give her that. She's got millions of followers. I mean, I've always thought this because everyone thinks I hate this girl. I have a grudging respect for the absolutely brazen nature of her approach.

30:25Camilla: Doesn't matter what criticism rains down on them both. On she goes. On she goes. Where will she go next, Tom? This is the thing. I mean, she's got some resilience. Oh, Megan, hasn't she? Yes. And I think there are two points there. The first thing is that she is a celebrity, but she pretends to be royalty. And that is the biggest issue. Well, she's pseudo-royal. Well, she's not pseudo-royal. She is the wife of the fifth or sixth in line of succession. If God forbid something happened to the whole Wellesies, he'd be king and she'd be queen. So she's trading on royalty. Now, she can be a celebrity, but then she shouldn't have the title with all that goes with it.

31:04And secondly, she is phenomenally resilient. She has taken a huge amount of stick. And I do admire the fact that when she is humiliated, when she is criticised, she disappears and only reappears wonderfully coiffured, wonderfully presentable, smiling to show that she is absolutely impervious to the criticism. Where in fact, all the insiders say that it becomes an absolute nightmare when she is criticised and just cannot cope with the invective she attracts. but I do come back to one thing. This is a couple who left England saying they couldn't tolerate being royals here because they wanted their privacy.

31:45And what have we got? Someone, on your own words, says, do nothing else but invade their own privacy every hour of the day. And I do think the use of the children is quite reprehensible.

31:55Camilla: Well, hang on. They won't even show them, will they? Well, I don't know. There are so many figures. Hang on a minute. You've written books on the Beckhams. Never the boy. All right, listen, maybe the boy, I'm just going to speak as a mother here, Maybe the boy is a bit camera shy. You have kids, you know, different kids. Some kids are performers, some kids aren't. Some kids are perfectly happy with you putting them on social media. You wrote a book about the Beckhams. You understand this. You know, Brooklyn Beckham didn't really enjoy it. Harper Beckham? Oh, yes, please. I'd like to launch a make-up break.

32:22Camilla: Oh, come on, Harper's been exploited since the age she was two. It's outrageous what they've done to Harper. Parents can decide what they do with their children and whether they want them to be on public display or not. OK? Rowan Atkinson, resolutely private. it. We don't even know the names of his children. Fair enough. Beckhams make a decision. They're the parents. They're the minors. They are in control of what they're doing with their entire family image. They're entitled to do it. We're entitled to judge them. They are entitled to do this. I disagree with you fundamentally, because in the end, the couple that left Britain in search of privacy have no right to deprivatise their children.

32:58Camilla: But we've never seen these kids' faces front on, have we? Well, we haven't seen the size, actually. There have been quite a few of the sides. It shouldn't be done. It's wrong. And the only reason she does it is because she's trying to attract sympathy. William and Kate are constantly parading these kids. Well, but they're the heirs to the throne. Yes. I'm only being... I'm just trying to... And more to the point, they're not claiming privacy, that no one must write about them. I mean, the point about why you started off this fascinating interview with the prison of me as deranged conspiracy...

33:30Not our words, Tom. No, no, but it's because they don't like people writing about them critically. They want to control the narrative. Whereas the royal family, and don't explain, don't complain, have a very honest and serious view that we're allowed to judge them. Well, let's discuss a very important area of their public life, which is the charity work. Sent to Bali. We know there have been troubles there. What went wrong? What went wrong was that it was running into the ground. It needed money from America.

34:04Camilla: We should explain, by the way, that Centre Bali is a charitable organisation that Prince Harry set up with Prince Sesu of Lesotho, both of whom lost their mothers when they were young men. And it's called Forget Me Not, and it was meant to raise funds, awareness and help children, very young children in Africa suffering from HIV and AIDS. Tom. And it was a huge success in the ideas. They raised a lot of money. Then went a bit downhill because they had a bad director. Then they got a better director. But in the end, it was very reliant on institutional donations and Harry's polo games, where he raised about one and a half million pounds.

34:45But then they needed money from America. And the director, Michael Hornby, resigned, retired after many years. and they appointed a very, very feisty black lawyer. And she discovered, and this is really interesting and all new, which comes out in the book, that Harry's image of knocking the royal family was very, very bad for raising money. And she told him, your image is not doing us any good and your arguments with the royal family are actually undermining. And we're going to have to change. and then he argued or she argued in a case with a huge Japanese benefactor and he then in the end Harry couldn't stand it that the person he had appointed was telling him what to do and of course the whole brittle relationship exploded at a polo match in Florida where they'd invited Meghan and you're going to raise over a million pounds.

35:48Megan said she wouldn't come and suddenly arrived at the very last bit on the day with Serena Williams and took over. And there's very, very amusing anecdotes about ice buckets and all sorts of things. Yeah, tell us about the ice bucket quickly. Well, she arrived with Serena Williams. The whole thing is sponsored by a whiskey, a bourbon manufacturer, and demanded champagne, which wasn't really on. And then she said she wanted the bottle in an ice bucket, was told there's no ice bucket. So she said to the flunky, you go and bite one then. So the flunk is sent off downtown to find an ice bucket.

36:19So Meghan's champagne can be in that. But the real, what really broke the Campbell's back was that Harry's team won. Sophie Chanduka, the chief executive, was to present him with the cup. But the whole thing was being filmed for Meghan's Netflix series. And so she pushed Sophie Chanduka out of the way and presented the cup herself. and the video of Sophie Chanduka being maneuvered out so Meghan could step in is absolutely horrendous in terms of Meghan's PR. So Harry calls Chanduka when this emerges and says, you must put out a statement saying that this was always planned and doesn't detract at all from Meghan's reputation or character.

37:07And she says, I refuse to do it. I'm not here for Meghan PR. I'm not a Sussex PR woman. And Harry goes berserk. And that is the beginning of what then becomes an amazing and very public row when she then appears on Sky and denounces Harry as racist and a bully. And that is really a great background story and tells you an enormous amount about the Sussexes. And in my view, it's the beginning of their downfall. He tried to remove her from her role. He did indeed. He failed. He failed. And then he resigned from Senti Bali. And in the charity's next annual report, Chandouka would boast that the charity's annual income had remained roughly the same at£3.35 million.

37:56So what I find really interesting about this is the Sussexes as a consumer product, and there's clearly a big demographic for that, like it or love it. There is some demographic for that. But then there's the Sussexes as a charitable enterprise and almost like a public body. And that's a lot more controversial. Because if you think about it, those international donors who are thinking about giving money to things, they're also people who give money to royal family projects. And the controversy which feeds the Sussexes as a consumer product, oh, here are our story about how we fell out with the royals, might actually put off donors interested in the charitable giving.

38:38Yes. So which master are they best off serving? Well, I think that is exactly the point that Chanduka said to Harry. We have a reputational problem because your anti-royalist stance annoys. And the other point as well is that until then, until she came along, they would get money on the shake of a hand. She said corporate charities now have to produce corporate governance plans. People don't give money without that. And he didn't understand that. He was impatient with all that. But I think the point is that the charity has survived, contrary to what he believed. And I just think it reflects...

39:17Because it's a good cause. It's a wonderful cause. The point is, you see, he didn't go to Lesotho. She had to persuade him. He hadn't been there for five years. Meghan didn't like Africa.

39:30Camilla: Hang on, I thought they got engaged under the African skies. Exactly. Under African skies. She hated the trip to South Africa. In a glorified tent. Yeah. But I just think when you're a rich person and your life is a permanent gap year, you see Africa through the prism of your own life and experience of it. And I find it really interesting that when he's not involved, actually the charity continues to do well because, as I say, it's a good cause regardless of whether he's involved with it or not. The real tragedy here is that he didn't go to Africa for that period when he loves Africa. Now, that tells you quite a lot about what's been going on here.

40:06Camilla: He famously said, do you know what? I could just, this is pre-Meghan. And I revert back to my analysis of him never being fully comfortable as a member of the working royal family. He said many years ago and repeatedly, do you know what? Part of me just wants to escape all this and go and live in Africa. he had very close friends in Africa he had like a surrogate mother and father out in Africa that's what spare's all about so to not go to this is what I sort of look at this chap as he arrives at court and whenever we see him in public patting himself down he's got some affectations Harry about how he carries himself in public there's a sense to which he's got the weight of the world on his shoulders the Invictus Games is a hugely admirable cause I was there at the conception of this thing I was with him at the Warrior Games in Colorado, where he came up with the idea of having this Olympic style event or Paralympic style event for wounded ex-service personnel.

41:02Camilla: I saw the light bulb go off in his head. I have been around the world with this bloke. I don't think we should forget how the apple didn't fall far from the tree when he was going to children's hospitals or seeing African children with HIV and AIDS or in any of his charitable endeavours. he was so committed to what he was doing and so genuine in what he was doing, Tom. You can't ever take that away from him. I saw him behave really so admirably and remarkably with profoundly disabled children. I remember it vividly in this hospital in Barbados and he's doing it with people taking photographs. So I suppose the question is, we're trying to make an evaluation of how happy this bloke is now in Montecito.

41:47Camilla: He's very, very happy to be a dad. There's no doubt about that. But I suppose one of the sadder tones of the book is this idea that he is constantly being overshadowed or playing a cameo role in his own life. And he will be devastated. People phoned me who were involved in Sintabali saying, you've got to appreciate how upset he is about this charitable breakdown. Well, I agree with everything you say. And I've heard from Colombia and also Nigeria, when he talked to the injured soldiers who've been in the wars there. He's absolutely sensational with them. And I watched it when I went to Vancouver to the Invictus Games.

42:28He is marvellous with them.

42:29Camilla: He's sincere. Totally sincere, 100%. My criticism is that he was, in his book, utterly treacherous and and utterly disloyal, and you can be very loving towards the inflicted, but he should never have done that. He should have betrayed his father. And I think as well it is extraordinary that Chanduco had to persuade him to go after five years and visit Lesotho. And why was he... and the charity needed... Because he was otherwise occupied in trying to leave the royal family and then in going to California. He wasn't busy in California. It's all that jam to me. He wasn't busy in California. Well, he was also making babies, to be fair.

43:09Camilla: He became a father. Yes. He could have gone to the so-tell for a couple of days. I mean, the point is he neglected it. He was happy to do it. And she says, you know, he said he'd had enough of playing polo to raise money for Sintabali. I mean, he said, I mean, that's one of the problems. He said, you've got to find other sources of money because he just didn't want to get a lot of work to get these matches arranged and get rich people there. So everything you said about him and the reason for Invictus is great. But the reality was different to what we would imagine. What is the status of Archwell now?

43:47Camilla: You make the point that it raised£1.2 million but spent£3.9 million. It was called Archwell Foundation. It's now called Archwell Philanthropies. Yes, I think the point is that they've given up. They couldn't raise more money. They couldn't raise any money. and the cost was overwhelming the income. So they fired everybody. Now just give them tiny amounts away. And I do think in the book you'll notice there's an extraordinary donation to President Biden's daughter of something like$300 ,000, which is, well,$400 ,000. Biden's daughter? Yes. She ran some sort of yoga clinic. Well, the point is at that moment, they wanted Biden's support.

44:33They were contributing to Biden through his daughter.

44:37Camilla: But were they snubbed once by Kamala Harris? Oh, Harris, yes, but not by Biden. Not by Biden. Jill Biden was very fond of Harry. There was also an Obama snubbing, wasn't there? There was Obama snubbing. But no, they got on very well with the Biden. But do you think she wants to go into democratic politics in the US? I think there was a moment, but not anymore. I think that moment has passed. What do they do next? Well, that's their problem. That's why I've written the book. Because I think what they desperately need to do next is come back here, reconcile with the king, revalidate their royal status, which they desperately need, so that they put up behind them all the invective and nastiness which they've spewed and profited from in previous years.

45:20And that is why the Birmingham victors were so critical for Harry. He was offered Washington, but he chose Birmingham. And the reason was that he hoped that his father would come and he'd stand on the podium with the king and then be reabsorbed by the family. But he's got a major problem, which is that Birmingham, after we saw with the Maccabee Tel Aviv team, have got a very, very aggressive Islamic group there. and part of the Invictus competition includes a team from Israel and the wounded soldiers will have been in Gaza and Lebanon. So the idea that the Muslims in Birmingham are going to allow the real idea of soldiers to come and compete in their city is for the birds.

46:06And I don't think the king will want to be associated with the violence. Undoubtedly, there'll be. And protests. So unforeseen, he has got himself into a problem because it was very important to him, if you remember, with all the arguments about protection and Meghan had to be given police protection and all said that he wrote to the Home Secretary. They briefed that they were going to get protection. I don't believe they will. But it was critical to the whole operation because he can't afford the protection anymore. No. It costs a fortune.

46:35Camilla: To be fair, he needs the protection because, of course, he also bragged in spare that he had killed Taliban. 25 of them. Has he also got a problem in that the window over reconciliation is probably only open as long as the current king, God bless him, lives. I agree. That's exactly it. Exactly. What about the prospect, finally, Tom Bower, of a book by Meghan herself? Well, I think that's very real. And I think that she'll write a very, very good book. It won't be the truth, but it'll be a very good book. Hang on. It'll be Meghan's truth. It'll be Meghan's truth. Like this is your truth, Tom Bower.

47:08Exactly. Well, no, my truth is subject to legal constraints. This is what I say about our own truth.

47:16Camilla: All truth is subject to legal constraints. Except hers won't be, because she'll have conversations with the Queen and other people, which will be completely unverifiable and unchallengeable, and she could do and would do huge damage. But that is her ultimate get-out-of-jail card, her ultimate source of money. Tom Bauer, thank you very much for joining us on The Daily Tea. Your new book, Betrayal, is out next week. Thank you very much for having me. We'll be back tomorrow at 5pm with a special about Jeffrey Epstein, the making of a monster.

48:11Thank you.