Trump: Starmer must stop the boats and drill baby drill

0:03The Telegraph.

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1:14The bromance continues. Starmer and Trump reigniting the special relationship. but why is the US President telling the Prime Minister to stop the boats and drill baby drill? We'll be speaking to our US editor Rob Crilley and also to the son of a couple who are in jail in Iran after what they hoped would be a holiday of a lifetime ended in arrest. Welcome to The Daily Tea with me Camilla Tominy and me Tim Stanley.

1:51It's no exaggeration to say that the partnership our two nations have built has shaped the world from the beaches of Normandy to the founding of NATO, to the creation of technologies that have revolutionised our lives. Time and time again, it is British and American men and women side by side changing the path of history and turning it towards our values, towards freedom, democracy and the rule of law. Rob Crilly, our US editor, joins me in the Daily T studio where we've just sat through that Trump and Starmer fest. I mean, the bromance continues, Rob. It really does, yeah. I mean, they're agreeing on a lot.

2:38There's a few points of difference. Let's just go through them. So the whole thing's prefaced, as we've just heard there, by this, the special relationship has never been more special. were relining on defence, trade and tech. They've announced that massive AI deal. They're first partners. It's all very friendly. However, point of disagreement number one, recognising Palestine. Yeah. And we know that's coming in the next few days. The question was asked very directly by an American reporter. Why not just get it out of the way immediately? And Starmer, of course, then sort of hedges and he goes around the houses.

3:15We absolutely agree on the need for peace and a roadmap because the situation in Gaza is intolerable. The hostages have been held for a very, very long time and they must be freed. And we need aid to get into Gaza at speed. And so it's within that context of a plan for peace, which we're working hard on, which not only did we discuss this morning, but our two teams have been working together on, that the question of recognition needs to be seen. But Trump has a very different attitude towards this. He's worried it rewards Hamas. It's a clear point of difference. Trump kept very closely to talking about the hostages, the need to get the hostages out.

4:00We have to have the hostages back immediately. That's what the people of Israel want. They want them back. And we want the fighting to stop. And it's going to stop. But a lot of bad things. You know, Hamas said that they're going to put the hostages up as bait. They're going to put the hostages in front of any attack. And that's pretty brutal. We haven't heard that one in a long time. So we have to remember that. So I have a disagreement with the prime minister on that score. didn't really talk so much about the aid situation, the problems facing so many Palestinians in Gaza. Clear differences of opinion.

4:34But what I would say was it was all done rather politely and rather respectfully. I feel like with all of these differences, and there were plenty of differences, Trump wasn't really going to hammer Starmer on any of this. No, he seemed to have been giving him a sort of easy ride because I think he recognises that the Prime Minister hasn't had a great time, obviously, with the Peter Mandelson saga. Can we just quickly discuss that? It's mentioned at the end, Peter Mandelson, and then Trump claims not to know the former ambassador to the US. He is no longer the ambassador. Do you have some sympathy with him that he lost his job over historic links to Jeffrey Epstein?

5:12Thank you very much, sir. I don't know him, actually. I had heard that, and I think maybe the prime minister would be better speaking of that. That was a choice that he made, and I don't know. What is your answer to that? Well, I mean, it's very straightforward. Some information came to light last week, which wasn't available when he was appointed. And I made a decision. What's he talking about? He referenced him in the Oval Office. Lord Mandelson was in the Oval Office just last week with the First Minister of Scotland. He was there for the big signing of the trade deal. He's been there at other crucial moments.

5:44President Trump absolutely knows where he was. But again, I feel like he knew this was going to be a very tricky subject for Starmer. It's a tricky subject for himself as well. Don't forget, he doesn't want to talk about Jeffrey Epstein. So he really just completely sidestepped. I don't know the guy. That's a question, I think, for the prime minister. Indeed, and he kind of answered it with what he's already answered it with. Let's talk about Putin. Now, this was interesting, wasn't it? Let's listen to Trump talking about the Russian president. I'm very honoured to tell you that we've solved seven wars, seven wars, wars that were unsolvable, wars that couldn't be negotiated or done.

6:22We've done, the US has done seven of them. The one that I thought would be easiest would be because of my relationship with President Putin. But he's let me down. He's really let me down. It was going to be Russia and Ukraine. But we'll see how that turns out. I mean, we had Starmer saying, I don't trust Putin. We had a number of questions about it. Does he regret inviting him to Alaska and all the rest of it. No, he doesn't. But what are you reading into that kind of mood change on Putin from Trump? Yeah, look, I think reading between the lines, this was clearly one of Starmer's key points that he wanted to nudge the president on.

6:59He brought it up in his opening statement, didn't he? He talked about Putin revealing his true face. It came up in the King's speech about Ukraine last night. So again, very respectfully done. No one wants to embarrass their guest or push a very volatile character. You don't want President Trump kicking off in the middle of a press conference. But in his own way, Starmer clearly had this as one of the key goals to keep Trump committed to Ukraine. And also just to remind him that he's let you down on a personal level. He came to Alaska and what's changed? Yes. And he did reveal, Starmer, that they had had an hour-long conversation one-to-one on foreign affairs in general.

7:38Now, when we got on to domestic issues. There was a bit of, I mean, he was doing it quite politely, Trump, as you say. He's turning around to Starmer in response to a question on migration and basically saying, in a subtle way, get your house in order like I have, which was a little bit, there was a bit of tension there. You know, you have people coming in and I told the prime minister I would stop it. And it doesn't matter if you call out the military, it doesn't matter what means you use, But it's going to destroy, it destroys countries from within. And we're actually now removing a lot of the people that came into our country.

8:15It's a very hard chore. It's a very, we were given a very, very bad hand. Millions of people came in from prisons and mental institutions. We have to remove them. Yeah. I mean, he talks about sending the military in as if this is something a British prime minister might consider. You know, and this is one of Trump's big wins. He took a bit of a victory lap there, didn't he, in talking about how the numbers had come down. And the question was a little pointed from the journalist who was asking about, you know, what advice do you have for the prime minister? So, again, it was set up very much for a chance for Trump to show their divisions, show their differences.

8:50And he did. This was one of the moments where you could see the big difference between the two approaches, but done in a gentle, respectful way. Although didn't you think that Starmer was squirming slightly when he started listing people who were criminals and coming from the Congo and they've got mental problems? And Starmer, the former human rights lawyer, you would have thought like if he'd heard anyone else say that in any other arena, he'd have challenged it. He suddenly had an urgent need to rearrange his notes, didn't he? Yes, he did. Yes, he was looking around the room. On energy, Ed Miliband won't want to hear this.

9:24And this was interesting as well. Trump restating his love of Scotland, his mother from, as he says, the Hebrides, so this serious part of Scotland he described it as. I think he'd shared a joke with Starmer along those lines earlier. He's talking about us weaponising our assets in the North Sea at precisely the time that Miliband, and indeed with Starmer's say-so, is saying no more drill, baby drill. We don't do wind because wind is a disaster. It's a very expensive joke, frankly. And we got our energy prices way down. that brought the inflation way down. And now we have very little inflation.

9:58And we have a very, very strong economy. So that was very important. Drill, baby, drill. And you have a great asset here. And we spoke about it. It's called the North Sea. The North Sea oil is phenomenal. And I hope, because I love this country, you know, my mother was born in Scotland, and the Hebrides, Stornoway, that's Syria, Scotland, we were talking about it. And I want this country to do well. Yeah, yeah. I mean, this is another huge point of difference. I mean, Trump in Scotland kept coming back to this. I was at his golf course in just outside Aberdeen, and you can pretty much see the huge wind turbines from the coast.

10:34And you can understand why Trump gets so upset about it. I mean, Starmer's response is, well, it's all about the mix. Oil and gas is still going to be part of the equation for a while. Trump's response to that was, we don't believe in wind. He absolutely rejects it flat out. I know. A real difference there between him and Boris Johnson, who wanted us to be, what was it, The Saudi Arabia of wind, which sounds like something that might happen post Christmas dinner and Brussels sprouts. We knew free speech was going to come up, Rob. The Trump gave quite a glowing tribute, actually, to Charlie Kirk, which Starmer stood by and respected, talking about him potentially having been a future US president and also talking about the commemorations that are going to be taking place in Arizona, where Charlie Kirk lived with his wife and their two children.

11:22and that's happening on Sunday. Just on the general tone of freedom of speech, this is something Tim and I are going to be discussing a little later on the podcast and the challenges that have been made in the aftermath of the Jimmy Kimmel pseudo-cancellation by his network ABC in America. Is there a difference between what these two men were saying? Not necessarily. They're both trying to uphold freedom of speech. Yeah, I mean, it came up in the speech last night that just a very gentle nod to their shared Western heritage from Donald Trump. He talked about how Britain led the world really in free speech, going back to things like the Magna Carta and individual rights and so on.

11:59Look, I was actually told a few days ago by people who understand Trump's thinking that he wasn't going to hammer Sir Keir Starmer on freedom of speech. There are real concerns in the Trump circle about what's happening in the UK, the Online Safety Act, the arrest of a Graham Linehan, for example, for something he tweeted while on American soil. Yeah. And it is a real concern. We've heard J.D. Vance really major on it. But when I asked around, I was told that Donald Trump knows that Sakhir is on the ropes domestically over the firing of Lord Mandelson. His approval ratings are on the floor. And the last thing that Mr.

12:38Trump wanted to do was actually make life any more difficult. So I was told freedom of speech wouldn't come up a huge amount. So I'm not surprised when he was asked directly about it. He made the tribute to Charlie Kirk, but he really rather sort of sidestepped it and did make it sound as if they were both on the same page. So I think that was President Trump being the good guest. Charlie was a great person. We'll be going out to a service on Sunday. I'll be leaving with some of the people in this room just to celebrate Charlie and all that he's done. So incredible. Never seen anything like it.

13:13But I hope that together our nations can lead a movement to defend the glorious traditions of freedom on both sides of the Atlantic. I mean, overall, Rob, this state visit's gone brilliantly for the US president, hasn't it? It has. And I think we know how much he loves the royal family. We know how much he loves the pageantry. I can never get through this sentence without using the terrible pun, but it really was Zakir Starmer's Trump card to invite him to this. That has put him in a good mood. He's been excited about this for a long time, the president. And you know what? We think of him as a volatile, mercurial character, but he has got a very finely attuned political radar.

13:54He genuinely likes the prime minister and didn't really want to do anything to make his life more difficult. And it's extraordinary when you think about how different those two characters are, how they come from completely different places on the political spectrum. I mean, you say it's been a win for Trump. has been a huge win for the Prime Minister as well, I'd say. Yes. And finally, just to talk about that speech, you just mentioned it earlier at the state banquet on Wednesday night. I mean, it was like a sort of love letter to the UK, wasn't it? There's an irony with the juxtaposition of those who were campaigning for Trump not to be there in the first place outside, who seemed to like the country less than the US president, as he listed all of the British inventiveness that we've witnessed over decades and centuries.

14:36and, by the way, so many personal touches acknowledging the king's sort of unique idiosyncrasies, but also the campaigning he's done on the environment and all the rest of it. Yes, the king and Trump aren't natural bedfellows. Yes, the king and Starmer aren't natural bedfellows. But both the king and Starmer would have been so happy to hear what he said. Yeah, yeah. I mean, like a lot of us, I often take for granted Britain's place in the world and, you know, the inventions and the history. but hearing a foreign president lay it all out was extremely powerful. And yeah, the personal touch is talking about the king planting trees and preserving the architectural integrity of cities and villages.

15:18These are the things we've rather ridiculed the king for in the past. And here is the president saying, congratulations, we're aware of your campaigning. And I'm sure that would have meant a huge amount to the king. Well, you could tell in his body language, he was thinking, Gosh, well, thank you very much for acknowledging all this, if you don't mind. Wonderful stuff, Rob Crilley. Let you get back to your notebook and pen. And we're going to be discussing in just a moment, Tim and I, freedom of speech and what it means particularly following this row in America.

15:53Camilla, I'm not sure anyone watches late night TV anymore in America except the president. Yes. And he's very happy. Why? Because one of his critics has been cancelled. Jimmy Kimmel, the American TV host and comedian, has had his show suspended indefinitely following these comments he made after the death of Charlie Kirk. We hit some new lows over the weekend with the MAGA gang desperately trying to characterise this kid who murdered Charlie Kirk as anything other than one of them and doing everything they can to score political points from it. Also, that comes off the back of Stephen Colbert being cancelled by CBS for expressing political views.

16:29So ABC has announced that he has been taken off the air indefinitely. There's been a degree of celebration by Trump and his supporters. Just a bit. That this man has been cancelled. Trump said the move was great news for America and congratulated the network ABC for its courage in a social media post. It's worth hearing the post just to remind ourselves that this is a sitting president of the United States. Congratulations to ABC for finally having the courage to do what had to be done. Kimmel has zero talent. That zero is in capital letters. And worse ratings even the Colbert, if that's possible.

17:05That leaves Jimmy and Seth to total losers on Fake News NBC. Their ratings are also horrible. Do it, NBC. President DJT. Just in case there might be any doubt as to who wrote that. Love that. DJT. But then in a bizarre twist, the president's words have been criticized by his former best friend, Tucker Carlson. So Tucker Carlson is weighing in, formerly of Fox News, very close to the U.S. president, basically saying that what the right are doing in celebrating Kimmel's cancellation is deeply hypocritical. This was on the Tucker Carlson show. You hope that Charlie Kirk's death won't be used by a group we now call bad actors to create a society that was the opposite of the one he worked to build.

17:57You hope that. You hope that a year from now, the turmoil we're seeing in the aftermath of his murder won't be leveraged to bring hate speech laws to this country. And trust me, if it is, if that does happen, there is never a more justified moment for civil disobedience than that ever. And there never will be. I'm not saying Tucker's alleging this, but Tucker is aligned with many conspiracy theorists who believe there's something very suspicious about Charlie Kirk's death, that it might not just have been the individual involved. Therefore, there is a narrative that we need to contextualize with what Tucker has said.

18:31There is a narrative out there of Kirk's death is being used in some way, and it might be being used to clamp down on free speech. Now, why is it that Donald Trump is in Britain promoting free speech? And good for him, and we're pleased he's done that. But in America, he's celebrating the cancellation of a show because someone said something he disagrees with. Yes. That sounds contradictory. Although I'm going to just interject there because an argument has been mounted, and it is as follows. The reason Jimmy Kimmel has been cancelled, in inverted commas, by his bosses at ABC is because he actually came out with an inaccuracy.

19:08Because at the beginning of that statement, when he says, we hit some new lows over the weekend with the MAGA gang trying to characterise this kid who killed Charlie Kirk as anything other than one of them and doing everything they can to score political points from it. Some are interpreting that as him suggesting that Tyler Robinson, the man currently under arrest and charged with Charlie Kirk's murder is a part of the MAGA movement. And from the evidence that we've seen so far with regard to what's been written on ammunition, the background of this man, the suggestion that he had a transgender partner and everything else we know, it does suggest that he's absolutely nothing to do with the MAGA movement.

19:51So why is Kimmel saying this? On that subject, what complicates understanding the motive is that the online left and right use similar language. and sometimes they use each other's language in an ironic way, which is why the confusion has emerged. So if he says things like, catch this fascist, is that a left-wing person saying, catch this? Or is this a right-wing person, because there are some right-wing people who hated Charlie Kirk, appropriating that language? That's why the matter is so confusing. Right. But even if his show has been suspended over an inaccuracy, the right has upped the stakes because the administration is now talking about clamping down on hate speech, speech which inspires hate and thus violence.

20:34And again, in this country, the right is critical of hate speech laws. I think understandably so, because they can be weaponized to shut down criticism of people you don't like, for instance, religions. That's one reason why we're pushing back so strongly against an Islamophobia law, because you should be free to criticize a religion. So why is it that in this country, the right is critical of hate speech laws. In America, the administration seems to be promoting it. I don't think, by the way, that the administration is seeking to overturn the First Amendment and your right to speak. I think the point is that it wants to launch an attack on speech which incites violence against human beings.

21:11Now, I think that the source of all this tension is a slight misunderstanding between Britons and Americans on the subject of free speech. Most British people, even if they don't call themselves this, are procedural liberals. They believe in equality before the law, due process. And when it comes to something like free speech, it's something that you must enjoy and I must enjoy. And that means you can say things I don't want to hear and I must say things you don't want to hear, right? And America is slightly different among conservatives. They think that things have got so bad that America is under such attack and that the left is so embedded in institutions and has so much power that if you expect equality in treatment, what you actually end up doing is giving the whip hand to your opponent, right?

21:56So to use their own words, Stephen Miller, the White House Deputy Chief of Staff who is driving this crackdown, he's in charge of policy when it comes to things like homeland security, tweeted, the path forward is not to mimic the ACLU of the mid-90s. ACLU being? This is the American Civil Liberties Union. I'll explain that in a second. The path forward is not to mimic the ACLU of the mid-90s. It is to take all necessary and rational steps to save Western civilization. The ACLU is a broadly liberal organization that was famous for defending anyone. Most famously, it defended the right of neo-Nazis to march in America.

22:37Holocaust deniers and all the rest of it. So that's the traditional liberal position, free speech for everyone. What he's saying is, no, when we talk about free speech, that's not what we want. What we want is we want to rebalance things so that the right who are currently suppressed, because, hey, a lot of right wing people have been cancelled. There's the famous example of the actress Gina Carano, who was on The Mandalorian, who tweeted something about free speech. And Lucasfilm decided not to rehire her. So the right are always being shut down because the left controls the institutions and the left are using particularly educational institutions to brainwash our kids and fill them full of hate.

23:14Therefore, real free speech is actually amplifying right-wing voices And going after those voices on the left That at the very least incite hate and violence And of course, there's a psychological context to this Which is many people in the administration knew Charlie Kirk And are deeply upset at his assassination J.D. Vance gave a speech about it In which he talked about how there can be no unity with a left that hates you It is a war Even if you, from a Christian point of view, don't want a war It is a war Therefore, you have to pick up something and fight. There is one irony in all of this, which the left, who now, of course, feel targeted and under attack, are pointing out, which is that Charlie Kirk, when he was alive, very explicitly condemned the concept of hate speech.

23:57Of course. He said there's ugly speech, there's hate speech, but ultimately it's all constitutionally protected. Indeed. So to hear Tucker Carlson critical of this, one is thinking, I suspect were he alive, Charlie Kirk might be tweeting an agreement. Well, this is ironic, isn't it? because, yes, Charlie Kirk would believe in, if we can simplify it, the law according to Ricky Gervais, which I think is adopted by the silent majority of this country, and that is we must reserve the right to offend. Yeah. We must reserve that right. Yes. And we must be able to give a platform to both people we disagree with and people we agree with to create a forum of debate so we can work out some of this stuff.

24:34Yeah. That is also Kirkism. Yes. That's what that was all about. Yes, yes. I wrote my column about this. It's not the words themselves that have created this environment where people are being cancelled on left and right. It's the absence of debates in schools, universities and other institutions. Also, by the way, somebody can be kind of cancelled indirectly. We can have classic examples. Kathleen Stock, for instance, you know, marched out of university by balaclava clad, you know, People waving badges in favour of tolerance and then literally marching a perfectly rational academic out of the building.

25:11But there's also associated cancellation. It's the treatment, for instance, of Gal Gadot, the Israeli actress. It's the treatment of Sydney Sweeney, who apparently had a bit of a difficult time at the Emmys the other day because of this association with her being involved in eugenics because a jeans company referred to her jeans. Shock, horror. So this is the other thing. And we can understand why the atmosphere is so febrile. We get that. But I think what's interesting is the right is going to lose this argument if it is arguing against itself. And the other thing that this is characterised by, this is a step change.

25:45The right used to argue and Trumpians used to argue this is fake news. Now it's saying it's not just fake news, but we shouldn't be hearing it at all. We shouldn't we shouldn't be subjected to this. We shouldn't be subjected to the Kimmels of this world, which is a step on. But what I think is interesting is all of this talk about uniting the country and making sure everyone can get along. And we're increasingly seeing now not just the left at war with itself, but the right at war with itself. You're not right wing enough. You're too right wing. It's enough to make one's head explode. I think if Trump were in the room, he would say, look, they called me a rapist.

26:24They said I tried to carry out a coup d 'etat. Someone tried to shoot me. Yes. So I have a right to say I don't buy the concept of an equal level playing field because the left controls the media, the left controls universities, the left controls Hollywood. So the only way to balance things out is for there to be some sort of at least market disadvantage for saying lies about the killer of Charlie Kirk. So there is some debate about whether pressure was placed upon ABC over this firing. Yes. Right. In order to do it. So let's take that out of the equation. Again, Trump would just say Kimmel is just a bad comic who was kept in place like Colbert because they said the right things.

27:06And they were talking to a diminishing audience. This is the sort of sub-story to all of this, is that actually late-night TV is dying. It used to be so powerful in the United States. And to some extent, it made Donald Trump famous. He used to be a star of late-night TV. But now it's dying. So in the same way that universities in this country or the civil service or the blob is able to prop up basically lame liberals in a job for life, very well paid. That's the kind of role the media plays. And this is just a market correction to say, well, look, you've got something wrong. You lose your job.

27:40Hey, that's happened to conservatives so many times. But then also maybe there's another law, according to Ricky Gervais at play here. And that is, I appreciate that the late night circuit in America is slightly more politicized than we are in this country. You don't necessarily expect Jonathan Ross and Graham Norton. I don't know how Graham Norton votes. No, quite. And we don't really want to know how Graham Norton votes. It is different in that country, but I do think, again, the silent majority has had it up to here with people on an entertainment platform. Yes. Giving sermons. Yes. You know, it's like his famous speech at the Golden Globes.

28:13Come up here, get your award and F off. We do not want to hear what actresses, presenters in this country, You could point to Gary Lineker, sports people. Yes. Think about politics. We don't want your bloody opinions. Yes. Go on screen and do what you're good at, which is telling jokes and interviewing celebrities. Yes. And then go on your merry way. Yeah, yeah. Equally, do we really want to pass a law saying that an idiot getting an award can't say something nice about the Navajo people? I don't know. No, we don't want to pass laws about any of this because you and I are liberals. We don't believe in banning stuff and banning people.

28:45It's better to have a free market of ideas in which the audience just starts to slow clap until they walk away. Yes. I think you can trust the market on this stuff when it comes to speech. And I think the fact that people were turning off from Colbert and Kimmel before everything came to an end is an indicator that if people don't like something, they'll stop watching it. Coming up next, we're going to be speaking to Joe Bennett, who has got an extraordinary story to tell. His parents went on what they hoped would be a trip of a lifetime around the world and ended up getting arrested and imprisoned in Iran.

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30:36It was just before Christmas last year that Lindsay and Craig Foreman embarked on what they hoped would be the trip of a lifetime around the world. The couple, both 52 from East Sussex, chose a route that would take them through Europe to Australia via, quite controversially, Iran. Yes, they understood the risks and took the necessary precautions, including obtaining the right visas and ensuring that they were accompanied by an Iranian guide throughout. However, their last post on social media on January 3rd this year was followed by silence. It wasn't until a month later that the Iranian state media announced that they had arrested the couple on charges of espionage.

31:20They remain in separate prisons inside Iran awaiting trial while their family and campaigners lobby Keir Starmer to try and negotiate their release. Joining me now is Lindsay's son and Craig's stepson, Joe Bennett. I cannot even begin to imagine what these past months have been like for you, Joe. When's the last time you spoke to your mum and your stepdad? So I spoke to my mum about four weeks ago now. And Craig spoke to his dad, it's around three weeks. And that's the first time that we got to speak to them in about seven months. and it's the only time we've spoken to them directly. And how did mum sound?

32:03Yeah, she sounded okay in herself. I mean, the one thing that I always say is that they sound as though they're coping, but I don't want to get too comfortable and familiar with the word coping because we can't take away the conditions and what they're really suffering every day. But it seems as though they are coping as best as possible. And you know where they both definitely are now because there'd been some confusion, hadn't there, over which prison they were in. So where's mum? Where's your stepdad? They're not together, are they? No, correct. So mum's in a place called Karczak, which is a women's only facility.

32:38And it's out of Tehran. So it's about a 90 minute drive from the capital, which makes the logistics a little bit harder. And Craig was in a place called Bozorg, but he's now been transferred to Evin. And that probably happened about three weeks ago or so. And mum's been in Karczak for over four weeks now. So how are you handling this situation? You're not able to speak to her very often at all. You've got a seven month period where you don't really know what's going on. Your coordinating efforts from this country, this is Iran. I mean, there's no transparency at all. How are you coping with this, Joe?

33:14How are you doing it? it's a very good question I suppose loves the driving factor being completely honest with you it's very tough at times I can't lie it's it's something that you never imagine what you have to deal with uh in terms of emotions and frustrations anger it's there's a lot of emotions going on but you know I allow myself to feel those emotions I think that's important I think if you bottle it up you're not going to do anyone any good let alone yourself so I try and be present with them but always come back to the ground in fact is that I want my mum and you know stepdad I want my parents home and they're the ones that are out there suffering the fate they're in at the moment not myself so that's always a driving factor for me is that I want them back and I want them back safely.

33:57Take us back to when they were planning this trip because the other aspect of this is you've had to endure a load of online abuse and people criticizing their decision to go to Iran in the first place. You know, we can have a discussion about that, but it's sort of irrelevant now because what we want to focus on is the fact that they're both in prison and the need for them to be released. When they were talking about this trip, did you say, I'm not sure including Iran in the itinerary is a good idea, mum? Yeah, I mean, the conversations were had, you know, and I think we all see loved ones make choices we don't maybe agree with, right?

34:35And you can be frustrated, angry, but again, it goes back. It doesn't stop you loving them. And they made that choice on the back of what they thought was a judgment call. And it is easy to say they shouldn't have gone. A part of me has felt that too. But the reality is that hindsight's always clearer than foresight. They could never have predicted that ever happening because they went and entered the country with all means appropriate to get them through for four days. They had the visa, the tour guides, they stuck to main roads, they were in hotels. So I don't think you, with that knowledge and everything, would predict what could happen.

35:17But like you say, it's not my job now to debate the past. I've got to try and fight for their future. What was the impetus behind the Iranian aspect of this trip? What did they want to achieve from going there? It was somewhere they hadn't visited before. Yeah, I think it's somewhere that they'd not been visited before. I mean, by all accounts, if you look at people who've been there in the past and there's a lot of people that travel to Iran, they say it's the most beautiful country, the most beautiful people. And, you know, it was a paradise way, way back. Right. And my mum and Craig said exactly the same thing.

35:48They said they couldn't be more. They were not more complimentary of the country. It's people that were trying to embrace, you know, traditions. And that says a lot about what they were trying to do on this trip. It wasn't about just Iran. You know, they were looking to go through Pakistan and East Asia. There's a lot of cultures that they wanted to experience and connect with people along the way. And unfortunately, there you've been punished for that. Take me back to the moment you found out that they'd been captured. Complete hysteria, I suppose, is the way I'd describe it. You just it was the most bizarre feeling.

36:21It didn't feel real. Then it hit home that it is. But then you wake up and you kind of forget about it. But what happened? You got a phone call. Where were you and how did it happen? So we contact the Foreign Office to say, look, my mum and Craig are in Iran. We haven't been seen or heard from for a number of days now and it's concerning us. They flagged it and said, yeah, this is quite serious. It's a missing person case. Open the case up. And it wasn't until the end of January. So it's a whole month until we got the confirmation that, yes, there are two UK nationals detained and it is my mum and Craig.

36:55I was sat at home. That month must have been agonising. it was horrendous yeah it was horrendous as i say because you haven't got a clue as to what's actually going on and you know there's a part of you that just sort of believes oh well they're in a bad signal zone you don't think the outcome is what it turned out to be and you're always thinking they might just be stuck at the border they might be a little thing with passport you know you're just trying to make up logical explanations as to what might have happened and then you get the confirmation and it's yeah it's mind-blowing because you know them as people right you're just like what is going on it was laughable and and but but in its own right it was the scariest the most worrying time of all of our lives we know it still is yes tell me about them as people what's mum like what's craig like as people they are adventurous right they enjoy traveling they're experienced travelers they as human beings are kind affectionate giving and they're the life and soul and the glue to our family as well they complement each other beautifully well they've been you know they're almost happily married now for 10 years but they're just they touch people that they meet you know there's people that they met along their travels that they only spent a night with that are now they feel emotionally invested and they they were there for one night so it just says a lot about them as people and as I say my mum often gets caught having deep and meaningful conversations no matter where she goes and Craig too and that's why there is always this connection and that's what they yearn for that's what they think will change the world I suppose How worried are you that mum's by herself, Craig's by himself, they don't have each other to be able to rely on in this very difficult situation, Joe?

38:35Yeah, extremely worried. You know, we know from the most recent ambassador visit that my mum's struggling to walk. She is sleeping on a bunk bed with no mattress. It's just a metal frame, right? So it's tough on her body. But we know that she's still teaching yoga and English to cope. So, I mean, it's heartbreaking and inspiring at the same time. It's what she's like as a woman. But, I mean, it's a test of time mentally. As every day passes, it's going to be chiseling away, right? And it's the same for Craig. He's sharing a tiny space, overcrowded, 50-plus people in the same room. And, again, he's, you know, just saying, look, we're keeping positive, exercising, trying to do what he can to keep his mental fortitude.

39:18but it shows their strength but also like the brutality of what they are having to endure so it's always that contrast it's always like you get hit with your hope and optimism and you you stay positive and then you then get their reality and it's like these constant scales in your mind you just want to stay positive but you know what they're facing so it's really hard not to want to do something about it what else do you know about the conditions there i mean as I say they're coping but coping shouldn't be normalized I mean these are overcrowded they're not sanitary the food that they get is limited unless it's supplemented by things from the shop there's limited outdoor space so they say they're exercising but it's still a crowded space that they're in I don't think there's as much space where my mum is as to where Craig is naturally because Evan's a bigger prison but yeah she won't be enjoying the freedom of a yard for example and evil craig so as i say they are making the most of what's available to them to keep them both mentally sound and they don't speak arabic presumably i think they're trying to learn farsi so i mean how how easy that's going to be i don't know but you know i think they've probably come out with a couple of sentences at the end of this potentially but yeah they don't speak the language they i think craig has met someone's english speaking called what he said to the ambassador which would give him a bit of a you know something to to help him get through but mum is in a place where there is not a lot of English speaking people or it's very broken so communication isn't going to be the best but she gets by they both get by by reading books but again it's day by day chiseling away it's how long can they stay mentally strong for that's I think that's why it's paramount you know.

41:09So they've got some accessibility to books you You obviously found out about the yoga and English teaching. Have you found that out by speaking to mum or have you got kind of like a middle person who's going into prison reporting back to you? How are you trying to kind of keep up with what they're doing in the absence of directly being able to speak to mum for weeks on end? So most of the information comes through the ambassador visits. You know, that that's where we got quite a bulk of information from because that happened quite recently. I mean, that was the first time they were seen in three and a half months.

41:42So, prior to that, it's kind of calls to the embassy and calls to us, which there aren't many of. But we have just had an update recently, which is why we know all of this, right? They were appointed a lawyer last week who speaks OK English. We do get information through him as well because he sees Craig and my mum and speaks to them. So, we do get sort of filtered information. Again, we have to take everything with pinch of salt, but it's information nonetheless. And you've been dealing with David Lammy in his office, presumably. Now the new foreign secretary is Yvette Cooper. I mean, what's your best hope here?

42:16What channels can lead to mum and your stepdad being released? I mean, it'd be nice to have a sit down with the new Foreign Secretary, not just to meet and discuss what we're going through and what does happen in these situations, because things that have happened, i.e. they've both been whisked away to court. You know, there's a lawyer, we know who the judge is, and it all points to a potential sentencing. Now, I can't go into that because I don't know any more information, but that's just what I believe is happening. And I just want to know what the plan is to get them home. You know, if we can't act at the moment because they haven't been sentenced to anything and we don't know the outcome of it, then let's at least get a contingency plan in place for if they are so that we can act quickly when it's done.

43:02It sounds like a stupid question, but you obviously want to state unequivocally here. They aren't spies. Yeah, yeah. I mean, as you say, they're not spies. They're not political players. They have no ties to any political party. They're definitely not criminals. You know, they are two innocent people who, as I say, are having to endure things that we really can't comprehend. They are coping, but I don't want that to be normalised because they are in dire conditions and it is tough. I mean, the closest comparison we can make here is Nazanin Zagari-Radcliffe. Arguably, Jo, there was a hell of a lot more publicity around her case than your parents.

43:40Are you wanting to shine more of a spotlight on this? Have you been asking them for advice? Have you been in touch with the Zaghari Radcliffs at all? Yeah, I mean, we've tried to get as much of an understanding as what goes on out there as possible. And that is reaching out not only to Nazanin and Richard, but Anoushe as well, Anoushe Asuri. And also further afield, we've spoken to, you know, Australian national Kylie Gilbert Moore. Just because we want to get an understanding, I want to know what it's like over there. Every case is unique. That is evidently clear. And I say the treatment of Anoushe and Nazanin was documented as not very nice.

44:26They were struggling heavily, but they were also dual nationals. So these are my mum and Craig are modern UK nationals. I think that has had an effect on how they're treated, because by all accounts, there's no signs of foul play, which is a good thing, right? That is a positive, but again, they shouldn't be there. So as much as that is a reassurance, that could always change at the flick of a switch. That could be a different story. But as of now, there isn't a feeling that anything like that's happened, which is a relief. So it's a different case entirely. It's two UK nationals that are completely innocent of anything, that any wrongdoing that's being accused.

45:13So, yeah, I mean, I need to understand from the experts in all of this, which is the UK government, the foreign secretary, the foreign officers, to what's the next step. And what are they saying? Because I appreciate there's sort of, you know, trials going on that you can't get any access to or any information about, not quite sure what they're being accused of, what they might be, in inverted commas, convicted of, and all the rest of it. What are the experts saying in regards to when mum and your stepdad might be able to come home? Nothing in terms of when they might be able to come home. There's a hope that quiet diplomacy or background work is still going on while this is all happening.

45:51But I understand that that also means they can't explicitly tell us what they plan to do. So you've just got to hope that whatever needs to go on in the background is happening. But that's the reason that firstly, I want to raise the profile of the case, because I don't think it's, as you say, at the level of what others have been. But secondly, it's more to hold the government accountable because I'm not discrediting any work that they've done or are doing. But I just want to make sure they are doing the most that they can to get them both home. So that's my role. You know, that's what I'm here to do is to make sure that we are doing everything to get them both back.

46:25And Joe, finally, I mean, what toll has it taken on you personally? Presumably you're trying to hold down a job, a life. And yet, have you had to put all that on hold to campaign? Yeah, life has been turned upside down for sure. I try and stay as normal as possible. Yeah, as you write, this is a pretty full on role at the moment. So I've had to stop what I was doing previously. But I still try to keep as routine as possible with social activities like football, golf, and trying to live my life outside of the campaign, which is hard because it swallows you whole. And it is hard not to think about.

47:02Yeah, so, you know, my mum wouldn't want us to do that. She wouldn't want us to give up our life entirely and sacrifice it for them because I will. I want them home. They shouldn't be there. But as I say, I'm trying to keep that normality. Well, Jo, wishing you all the best with the campaign. Glad to be able to highlight it on The Daily Tea. And I'm sure we'll revisit this as there are developments in their case. Thank you very much indeed for your time today. No problem. Thank you. We're going to be following that story very closely. We'll be back tomorrow with Penny Mordaunt, 5pm.

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