Villain or victim? Meghan’s next Royal move

0:03The Telegraph. Welcome to The Royal Tea, the podcast serving up the very best royal insight from the experts in the know. That's us, me Camilla Tominey. And me Victoria Ward, The Telegraph's Deputy Royal Editor. And the Sussex Circus is about to roll into town, or is it? Prince Harry will land in the UK this weekend ahead of his Invictus Games engagements, but it remains to be seen whether Meghan or the children, Archie and Lilibet, will come along with him after all.

0:44Vicky, great to see you. What is going on here? Because we had this bells and whistles return to Blighty tour planned for Harry, Meghan, Archie and Lilibet. It was going to be a family affair. They haven't been in the country since 2022, the Platinum Jubilee. This was meant to be some kind of royal rapprochement, which we think has been orchestrated by the King. Not sure that the Prince of Wales is actively signed up to this. I'd say not. I'd say not. And now it appears to have been kiboshed at the last minute. Yes, I'd say it's what a drama. They've got themselves into a bit of a hole. Sussex is in drama shock.

1:21Who thought it? They've got themselves into a bit of a hole, haven't they? because they announced that they were coming. They planned this week of engagements that involved Megan as well for the first time working in the UK since, well, for six years, I think. Yes. And then, but they were kind of banking on having some kind of security provision, which it's turned out was a bit of a red herring. So they were barking up the wrong tree. Yes. So they found themselves in a sticky situation where they've made all these plans. They've made commitments with these charities. They've got all these Invictus engagements planned for next week and said that they were coming with the children, which is a massive deal for them.

2:02And then they were told they weren't getting any security provision whatsoever. But why would they assume they were getting security provision? What was the last decision made by the Home Office about taxpayer funded bodyguards? It's so complicated. So Harry's lost all his efforts to get taxpayer funded bodyguards. And he knew he had lost that. There was a big legal fight with the Home Office that lasted for years and he appealed and he lost the whole thing last year. The judge said a grievance does not equate to a legal argument. So he lost it all. But then he was so determined to get this police protection because he wants to spend more time in the UK and is convinced that he can't safely without it, that he kind of lobbied the Home Secretary privately and was told in December that he was going to get this full risk assessment, which is what was the crux of his legal challenge.

2:50He wants this full risk analysis, which then Ravec, the Home Office Committee that makes these decisions about police protection, will use as a basis for making their decisions. So he was told he was getting this risk assessment. Jubilant, delighted, was asked to provide loads of information, background documentation, security assessments from his private security team, loads of information, sent it all in to Ravec. and then only just last week found out that that assessment had never taken place. So he mistakenly had banked on this idea that if the assessment was taking place, it would conclude that he was vulnerable and needed protection and therefore they would get some kind of security.

3:33So there's a chain of events here which has collapsed. But do we know that it definitely hasn't taken place? We know that it hasn't taken place. But then the alternative conclusion to draw is that Ravek or the Home Office here or whoever the powers are that might be that dictate security in this country for visiting royals have concluded that he isn't at that greater risk and therefore they don't need to provide any security at all. But I think they would have to tell him that. Yes. Because they've told him that the assessment was taking place. Because this is how I kind of I'm looking at it, trying to be as objective as possible, but with an overall knowledge of how royal security works and indeed how private security works.

4:14Because he's made this transition from being a fully working royal with this whole taxpayer funded bodyguard shebang from birth that that entails. He's now moved to Montecito. He's no longer a working royal. I can understand the Home Office argument for saying, listen, we can't now treat you like you were a working royal because we don't even treat working royals like that in this country. It's not just that you're not a working royal. You're now living independently in America. You've got your own security detail. You're clearly playing them a huge amount of money. Bring them with you if you want your family to be safe.

4:52If your family is safe with your own private bodyguards in L.A., why on earth aren't they safe with your own private bodyguards in London? Now, that could be a carrying arms issue, but whatever, just put that aside for now. We cannot have a special dispensation for you coming back here as a so-called VIP, because if we did that, any VIP coming to the UK, be it Taylor Swift or an Emirati royal or whatever, would be demanding taxpayer-funded bodyguards that the country simply can't afford. The second observation I'd make is, and a few people have told me this over the course of recent years, that these two are over-exaggerating their own need for security and that they are probably being egged on in that by the people that they're paying security to because the people they're paying security to, it's in their interest to say you need a hell of a lot of security and I think you should not be paying tens of thousands of dollars but hundreds.

5:44I suppose so, although you could argue that they'd be out of business whenever they're in the UK because they wouldn't be needed so much. But yes, I agree. Of course, they could be being egged on by it. I mean, several people have told me the kind of like the situation around these two is completely over the top. They're in a bubble. They're in some kind of bubble. And I think there's also some cachet for them for being in a bubble because we've both travelled in motorcades and things like that. We've travelled with people driving around in big Land Rovers and speaking into their cuffs and stuff.

6:15And it gives the aura of celebrity. I'm not for a minute questioning the fact that Prince Harry particularly, having been in the armed forces, served in Afghanistan and actually admitted in spare to having actually killed Taliban, I'm sure there is a risk against him. But I think that, and I think that's a serious consideration that should be taken seriously, so don't get me wrong. But I also think there are some people in the public eye that love the bells and whistles of security because it makes them look more important than they actually are. Yes, and also it harks back to that Sandringham summit when they first left the working royal family.

6:53And that's when their security was taken away. And part of this is kind of political because they are convinced that it was taken away as some kind of punishment for them leaving the UK. It's a really important point. So that's what they think. So they think that the king and Sir Clive Alderton, his private secretary, are pulling the strings behind the scenes or at least have some control over this because Clive Alderton sits on Rabeck And they really do believe that if the royal family wanted them to have security, they could have it. And it's been taken away from them as some kind of two fingers up.

7:28You've run off. You've left the country. You're not getting it anymore. But again, the counter narrative to that would be this is Ravik. This is an organisation that exists to assess whether or not people need security. It doesn't concern themselves with the emotions of people's fallout within the House of Windsor. That's not what Harry thinks there. No, I know. But then this exemplifies, doesn't it, the them and us attitude that they've had from the very beginning. You know, one of the reasons Megxit happened in 2020 was because the couple basically thought it's us against the rest of the world.

8:04Now, Harry had previously thought that for years and years because he felt like a round peg in a square hole. because he was constantly saying, why can't we do this? And constantly being told by the so-called men in grey suits, as his late mother described them, no, you can't because it's not royal protocol. So he was always agitating to kind of break free. Then Meghan comes along and gives it rocket fuel. But you speak to people within the palace and, of course, they insist we couldn't have been more accommodating to these two quite difficult and demanding people. And, you know, there's a whole family here.

8:35It's not just about you two. But it created this kind of, I don't know, it created this divide, didn't it? Where they felt that constantly they were being hard done by. And we see that play out in the pages of the autobiography. Why didn't I get the room? Why was he allowed to have a beard and not me? You know, why did we get small accommodation at Kensington Palace while William and Kate are roaming around in a massive apartment block? Blah, blah, blah. And this carries on with the security thing. This carries on with the security. why aren't I considered as important as the rest of them? Well, the answer to that question is presumably, well, you're not the king or the future king.

9:12One imagines, although he insists that actually, and his security team claim, that he's more vulnerable than many other senior members of the royal family because of his military service in Afghanistan, because the public narrative has turned massively against them and brand them traitors and whatnot. Yes, that's the cogent argument. Yes, and they say that the biggest threat is lone actors, lone individuals who work in... The fixated individual. Yes, those people who do see all this social media coverage and the tabloid coverage and the negative headlines and the calling Harry, all sorts of things, and fixate on that and target that.

9:47So that's one of their main arguments. And yet, even in the immediate aftermath of Megxit, when emotions really were running high, we look at the Platinum Jubilee, we look at the funeral of Queen Elizabeth II, the couple faced no problems at all, did they? No, they were there. They were fine. No-one's throwing eggs here or abuse. No, they got a bit boozed and they got a little bit of booing. Well, a bit of booing. I mean, who doesn't? Come on. I mean, I could go out in the street and be booed by some lefty somewhere. No lone fixated individuals were targeting them, were they? This is true. But so the other suspicion, of course, rightly or wrongly, is that they have been using this as an excuse for Meghan to not come back with the children, possibly fearing a cold or indeed abusive reception by the British public, and that's an understandable fear.

10:40It's quite a likely scenario. What, you think her being shouted at in the street? I think she's quite unpopular in this country, isn't she? So yes, I don't suppose if she was out in the public domain somewhere that she'd get a particularly warm reception. No, all right. and then also I can also identify as a parent that your priority as a mum and a dad is the safety of your children and I think we do need to be sensitive to that. They're very protective of their children's privacy. I was always wondering from the very beginning how they were going to manage this. Were the children going to be what they call public facing or not because they've done this whole thing of they're not going to show their faces but we're going to share photographs of them with their backs to the camera and stuff for Father's Day and beyond.

11:21All the time, yeah. They can't bring them out onto a one year until Invictus stage and then expect everyone to pixelate their faces. Well, I think that's quite an interesting point. And I think they know that they don't have control over their children's privacy forever. They know that at some point that is going to have to stop. Yeah. And so they've got this kind of thing where now they have to weigh up. If they bring the children over to the UK, the worst case scenario for them, I think, is that they get papped and that the control is taken out of their hands and that these photographs are all over social media, even if the British newspapers don't publish them.

11:55Yes. It's too late. They're out there and social media has a mind of its own, doesn't it? So they... Well, they're not even papped, just taken photographs by some punter in the street. Exactly. And if they come, they're going to be moving around. They're not going to be staying in the falls of one particular place, are they? Because that defeats the object of coming. But they were offered a royal residence then. They have been offered a royal residence, yes. I heard somebody say that, confirm that, but we're not going to say where it was because of their security. We wouldn't do that. But they have been offered a royal residence and they were planning to stay there.

12:26They hadn't formally accepted the invitation, but they were, as a force, planning to stay there. That now is up in the air and Harry is still deciding whether or not to accept that invitation, whether to bring Meghan, whether to bring the kids. But that offer of a royal residence does suggest that the frost has thawed, at least between father and son. Now, I was speaking to people about this this week in preparation for this royalty. Vicky, and I think it's safe to say that the king and Prince William are in different places. Definitely. The king is more willing to forgive, perhaps not forget, but let's be honest, he's been through a lot lately and it is his son.

13:05And a parent and a father, you know, does make allowances that perhaps a sibling might not. I understand that William is not there. He's nowhere near there. Do we think it's caused tension between the king and William for the king to be reaching out to Harry in this way? I doubt it because this has been the situation for quite a long time now. William has had nothing to do with Harry for years, whereas the king is actually in relatively regular touch with Harry. They email, they do speak on the phone. Their relationship is relatively good on a personal level, father and son at the moment. So I don't think William's going to be watching these events unfold next week with a happy smile on his face.

13:43He'll probably be quite angry about it. But he, I'm sure, knows that he can't control it. Why do you say that? Why would he be angry? I think he still feels utterly betrayed by Harry. Yes. And as does the Princess of Wales. I think the two of them are nowhere near forgiveness. So they've brought the shutters down. They've decided to focus on their work, to not tune into this circus surrounding the Sussexes and not to involve themselves in it in any way, shape or form. Because if you speak to people close to them, it's funny to bring the conversation full circle to the very beginning. They don't want to be sucked into the drama.

14:17Exactly. And they think that if they engage, they worry that stuff will get leaked. They don't trust them. They don't trust them. Second of all, they just feel they'll be caught up in this kind of whirlwind and won't be able to get out. They've tried to lift themselves above it in a sense, haven't they? Yes, rise above. Keep calm and carry on. Bring the shutters down. Rise above it. Get on with the work. Don't engage privately or publicly. Yes. And just do the job that we're here to do. That's what their attitude is, I think. And I think most people sympathise with that because, as you say, Harry and Meghan's popularity has gone down and William and Kate's has gone up.

14:53But there might be some that regard that as quite cold. There might be some who think, hang on a minute, your wife's had cancer, your dad's had cancer. Their children are cousins. Your children are cousins. You two were once absolutely an emblem for brothers in arms. You know, life's too short for this chaps. Posh people would be saying. Posh aristos, chaps, come on. But even the people who support the Welles' attitude in this would surely, you can't help but feel sad about it. It's a family. They're a family. They're brothers who beat the law. Look, Vicky, you get the letters, I get the letters.

15:30There are others when I suggest that maybe there should be a reconciliation of people going, what are you thinking? You're mad. The Sussexes have trashed their own family. You know, and there is an irony there. They go over to America to protect their own privacy. then they invade their relatives' privacy. They complain about press intrusion. They give the relatives no right of reply. I mean, there are a huge number of contradictions at play here with how everything has played out over the course of the last five years. The other thing on that note that's happening is this judgment on his case against the male newspaper group.

16:06Yes. What's going on? So it's a really unfortunate coincidence where the Sussexes are concerned and that this has all suddenly happened all at the same time. So Prince Harry, as we know, was in the UK in January to give evidence in his privacy claim against the Associated Newspapers. He brought that claim against the newspaper group with Elton John, Liz Hurley, Baroness Lawrence, Stephen Lawrence's mother, seven claimants in total. Very high-profile trial. They've accused the Daily Mail and the Mail on Sunday of hacking and bugging and keeping them under surveillance and all sorts of things. That trial finished at Easter.

16:41The ruling's being handed down on Tuesday and it just coincides with Harry's first public engagement in the UK. He's going to be talking about the Invictus Games, involved in a panel discussion about the Invictus Games on the same day that this ruling is being handed down. So just as the world is digesting this, he's going to be talking about Invictus and somehow he's going to have to try and marry the two and work out how to react. Listen, if the court finds in his favour, then he can do a victory lap around London and say, I was right all along. And, you know, you hounded my mother, you hounded my wife, you hounded me, etc.

17:14He's going to be absolutely jubilant. He's desperate to have his moment on the court steps where he could do that. I don't think that's going to happen because there's no public hearing at the High Court. Ah, so he could have a moment on some step somewhere. Somewhere, but it won't be at the High Court. But however, Vicky, if it doesn't go his way, this is going to be deeply embarrassing. It will be deeply embarrassing. It'll be interesting to see how he reacts, because obviously if all eyes are going to be on him, just by chance he's going to be in the UK. Whether he does a public statement or not very much depends on how it goes.

17:47But if he loses, he probably doesn't do a public statement. Why would you? But this issue is going to be following him around all week, isn't it? If he loses, because he's going to be out in public doing all these charitable engagements. So come what may, you're saying he's definitely coming. Come what may, he's coming. He's definitely coming. He wouldn't let his charities down. He's put all these plans in place every day. It's just about Meghan and the children. It's Meghan and the children. And whether it's a family affair or not. Yes, and the original plan was for them to come over for two weeks and spend quite a lot of time with friends and family when they weren't doing these public engagements.

18:19Now everything's up in the air. They might not come at all. Meghan might come without the children. I think the most likely scenario is that Meghan and the children will come but for a short period of time and perhaps just do some of the family engagements. the private family bits, but without bringing them out onto the public stage or Meghan being out in public. But who knows? Who knows? She is scheduled to do a few public engagements next week. Tantalising. Well, let's get an American perspective, Vic, on whether there'll be a homecoming of sorts for Meghan. Coming up next, we're going to be speaking to Kinsey Schofield.

18:59royal commentator and host of kinsey scofield unfiltered kinsey scofield joins us now from hollywood the sign behind you looking very la glam if i must say thank you very much for joining us on the royalty what do you reckon then do you think megan is going to come back to britain next week i think professionally camilla that megan needs that proximity to the british royal family I think that they, both Harry and Meghan, have struggled here in the States when it comes to consistency, when it comes to an ability to collaborate with people in the industry here in Hollywood. And what made them special to begin with was their relationship with the British royal family.

19:41I believe that they recognise that and they understand that whether it's authentic or not, it needs to look like things are going in a much more positive direction for them to attract some positive attention for the first time in a really long time. Do you think that she needs the royal family? Because without that connection, what's left beyond jam and other endeavours? I think she enjoys the public, the fame of it, being known worldwide, being a global name. So Kinsey, are you leaning into that idea that she will come because she knows the cameras will be following them? Yes. And I think that she is tired of being the villain of the story.

20:23So if she can come back to the UK, King Charles gets to see his grandchildren for the first time in a long time. and things look like they're moving in a positive direction, then maybe she can work her way out of that villain era. However, there are going to be people that suggest that it's unfair for King Charles to see his grandchildren while Thomas Markle has yet to even meet them. Ah, good point. That's Meghan's father, who is now living in the Philippines, I believe. But Kinsey, on this kind of, yes, she wants to perhaps dispense with the whole Lady Macbeth thing, and I get that. Does she care that much?

21:02Obviously, her popularity has tanked in the UK since Mixit. How's she viewed in the US? How's it all going, the Montecito project? I never thought that Harry and Meghan expected to become the punchline that they became here in the United States and especially Hollywood. Trevor Noah taking swipes at them at the Grammys. Jimmy Kimmel doing a dramatic read of Spare, talking about, you know, his todger. We've even seen the South Park episode resurrected continuously. She has become a bit of a joke here in the States. With Love, Megan, the amount that it was parodied on TikTok was unreal. And so she does want to be taken as a serious personality.

21:47You know, before Harry, she was trying to brand herself in this charitable Angelina Jolie type of space. And that, again, that proximity to the British royal family helps them to reestablish themselves as more serious individuals, thought leaders. But yes, of course, I think she likes the attention too. She likes positive attention and she wants to just shake off this negative reputation that she's developed. I mean, there's no better way to kind of get over memes mocking you for wrapping a wine bottle in a Japanese scarf than to do stuff for charity. Yes, and I suppose if we see her next week in the UK, she's going to be doing these Invictus Games charities.

22:29She might turn up at the Royal Hospital of Chelsea with some Chelsea pensioners. So yes, but the interesting thing is, Kinsey, do you think she needs to be seen with the king? Because is it going to be completely private if it happens? Oh, good point. Are they going to keep it private? Or do you think there's going to be some mechanism? Do they need it out there? Does Meghan need that out there? and if so how is that going to work? To rehabilitate Kinsey. I don't think that it's in anyone's best interest for us to see photographs. I will be very cynical if we do. We'll say oh well you just you needed that for Instagram didn't you because she puts so much out there to the point where it's like too much information.

23:13What's so special about Prince William and Catherine is that mystique is that mystery that surrounds them so I think she needs to pump the brakes when it comes to the amount that she puts out there herself I agree that that would be in her best interest for there to be a photograph out there of her and the king and the children but I think for the royal family's best interest everything needs to be private and quiet or I think that there will be royal watchers that will revolt. They will be so angry with something like that. Do you think it's enough for her brand, enough of a boost for her brand, just for it to be known that she was in the UK and met the King with Prince Harry and their children?

23:57You know, there are the sycophantic entertainment outlets here in the United States that will ooh and ah, you know, Meghan meets with the King, you know, in the all caps font, in the exciting music. She still has a few of those outlets left that, you know, just stick to her every soundbite, every word and every press release word for word. But if you read the comment section, once those articles go online, you see a real rejection of that narrative. So I do think that she's listening to a team that is saying to her, things have gone south. You've got to make up with this family. You've got to start looking towards the future and stop fixating on the past.

24:39Stop talking about the past because you're alienating your audience. But this is interesting because I remember there was a period after Spare was published where it sort of oozed out that Megan was a bit uncomfortable with it. that Meghan thought that he had overshared, would you believe? And we're talking about, funny enough, the king and queen of oversharing, not least Kinsey, because you did mention his todger, which was lampooned in America, and this was a tale that appeared in his autobiography about him applying Elizabeth Arden eight-hour cream to his own penis while thinking of his late mother because she used the cream.

25:15Now, I've paraphrased it, but that's what it was, and it was there, and it was like, my goodness me, this is quite a window into your soul. But I thought that she thought, and especially with all this privacy stuff that we've also discussed, Kinsey, this case against the Mail and other newspapers, that Meghan had sort of been saying behind the scenes, can we just just calm down a bit here? Because this is kind of completely overshadowing the brand. And that was one reason, by the way, for the As Ever project. It was this idea of her breaking away, becoming the next Martha Stewart. Wholesome. Wholesome, family, you know, Mother Earth.

25:52Trad, why? Trad wife. I mean, I'm not sure she'd enjoy that phrase. No, I don't think she would. But it was kind of like, let Harry be Harry, but I'm going to go and transcend this. I'm going to promote this domestic ideal, you know, that I've got here. Am I partially onto something? Kinsey, did you hear such rhetoric? I remember hearing that. Yes, I do remember hearing it too. You know, she kind of disappeared. So that to me confirmed that she was kind of uncomfortable with what bits and pieces were being picked up been really elevated through the pages of spare. Like, oh, no, this isn't the direction we wanted to go.

26:27But the entire book was an odd direction. I don't think, though, that Prince Harry's complaints about security benefits her brand, though, either. The constant comparisons to Princess Diana, I think, really offends people. And in the United States, she's like the second coming of Mother Teresa, Princess Diana. So the idea of Prince Harry constantly comparing Meghan to Diana really frustrates people. And as an American watching over here, if Harry Styles can run through the streets of London before performing for 90 ,000 fans, I think it raises a fair question. Is Prince Harry's assessment of the security threat in Britain dramatically different from everyone else's?

27:08Nobody's suggesting celebrities don't face security risks. They absolutely do. But Harry Styles' decision to jog across London reminds people that many global stars manage those risks without insisting on the level of state protection Prince Harry's seeking. Yes, I mean, that is a good point. Yes, it just shows I think there's certainly there's such a deep rooted element to the Prince Harry security row, isn't there? It goes so far back to his mother, to what's happened to the fallout with the royal family to this, all these grievances that have been bubbling away in the surface. So I think, yes, there are many, many layers to this security fight, aren't they?

27:46So Kinsey, is your instinct that she will come, for all the reasons you've mentioned about kind of restoring reputation, but also a love of the old flashbulb? I mean, in that regard, she is quite similar to Princess Diana. I mean, kind of comfortable. And we should also, I think they're all in Europe anyway. Who's in Europe? Oh, they're in Europe. The Sussex family on holiday. Oh, are they? They're already in Europe, so they're most of the way here. They're not at Elton John's again, are they? I don't know where they are. Oh, so they're so close. They are so close. You know, I don't like playing psychic on this one because the one thing I say is still interesting about Harry and Meghan, because for the most part, I think they're kind of boring.

28:26I think the one thing that is still interesting about them is that they are unpredictable. And maybe they've recognized that and they see it as a strength. But I do think there are pros and cons to not going. If they don't go, they continue to paint the king as a villain and them as the victims and they stir up their very toxic fan base. And if she does so, then she's going to get a ton of positive press from the regular favourites of the Sussexes, People Magazine, Us Weekly, and Entertainment Tonight, Access Hollywood, some of those entertainment outlets that like the access that the Sussexes give them, so we'll continue to repeat the narrative that they want repeated.

29:09But then you're kind of saying that she wins either way. But it's a win if she can continue to kind of depict the royal family as her oppressors. And it's a win if she gets lapped up by some of the L.A. media. That's exactly what I'm saying. Meghan Markle is not sweating right now, according to Vanity Fair. Prince Harry is and he's near tears. But, you know, when it comes to Meghan Markle, I think that she probably thinks she's holding some sort of Trump card. You mustn't call it that, Kinsey. The last card that she'd want to hold is a Trump one. And in a future podcast, we must discuss her hopes for political life and some kind of resurgence as I think the leader or the Democrat nominee for the next president.

29:55And actually on that note, haven't they also tried to do this thing that the Obamas did of kind of rising above? I'm not sure, though, Kinsey, to finish that they've quite achieved that kind of we want to reposition ourselves as the next Obamas. The thing that that whole theory missed is that Obama was actually president. And a popular one. And a popular one. You know, if you're going to reposition yourself as kind of an elder statesman and woman, you've got to have actually achieved something. I mean, I'm not being horrible, but there's got to be a legacy. There's got to be a legacy there. Well, I also think that, yes, that was their objective.

30:32But then you can't write a book talking about your penis. You can't go pretending to be a Hallmark Christmas prince on Stephen Colbert. You can't suck a pacifier and squat on the Ellen DeGeneres show. They're not consistent in their messaging, but Harry has done a severe shift in the last six months to a year. Ukraine taking on Trump, taking on Putin in that speech, the anti-Semitism op-ed that he recently wrote. He's trying to shift into more of a thought leader and to be taken more seriously. but we don't have amnesia. I mean, we are still remembering all the things he's done over the past few years that haven't been very edifying.

31:10You say we don't have amnesia. I had forgotten about the pacifier. They probably have put your mind blocking it out. They probably did. Kinsey Schofield, thank you very much indeed for staying up into the early hours to share your thoughts with us. Much appreciated.

31:34Thank you.