'We're not safe': Richard Tice fights back tears as he reveals attack that triggered armed police

0:02The Telegraph.

0:30Whether you're crafting a one-of-a-kind bash or grabbing the essentials, Michaels has everything to make their big day legendary. Shop now and order ahead for delivery or in-store pickup. Michaels, everything to celebrate anything.

0:48He's accused the Labour government of failing to take seriously the safety of reform MPs and says the establishment wants him dead. We speak to a shaken but not stirred Richard Tice about his experiences and his concerns about the safety of MPs. Welcome to The Daily Tea with me, Kimilla Tominy. And me, Jacob Rees-Mogg.

1:19Richard Tice, for the first time you joined Jacob and I in The Daily Tea studio because we've spoken to you down the line. I have, but it's a great privilege to be here with you both. And I know you're a viewer because you do sometimes message me and say, oh, I like that, and I like that. Or I didn't like that. More often than not, it's the latter. We're trying to be cheery, but you've had a very difficult few days, the Reform Party, mourning the death of Anne Whittacombe in, let's be perfectly honest, absolutely horrific circumstances. It has an effect on you and Nigel Farage and others in the party because you are now very concerned about your own personal safety, understandably.

1:56The headline at the top of the Telegraph website right now is your colleague Robert Jenrick saying Labour is playing politics with Farage's life. Just explain that. So I think it's sort of broader that our issue has been with the parliamentary authorities that they have they've not taken our requests we believe in the appropriate way in actually for many, many months. Nigel had his security taken away quite some time ago. And then last Christmas, I had a bad incident at Parliament Square, had to get armed police, press my buzzer. And that gentleman appeared in court last Friday. I wrote to the Speaker in January.

2:46I said, look, it's not safe in the quarter of a mile just outside the parliamentary state. It's much worse now than it was six or 12 months ago and the issue i have and that we have is that the abuse the there's a new thing to waffy to waffy is to to walk abuse film and intimidate and it's not an offense but people with their mobile phones doing it very very close to you and shouting and harassing and the moment you touch them you've committed an offense right and uh and so this is uh this is something that's very significant just in the last two weeks we've had a number of these incidents between reform MPs.

3:22So, you know, we are concerned. Nigel's been sadly concerned for much, much longer than the rest of us, for obvious reasons. And the Speaker is a brilliant advocate for the safety of all politicians. But, you know, there are a team of people who work under him for whom, frankly, we have some criticisms. I think they are now being addressed. And we're grateful for that. And we'll move forward. But it's a very difficult, highly regrettable place to be. But the Home Secretary, Shabana Mahmood, did reach out yesterday and say to Mr Farage, look, I will meet with you and discuss these matters. And he welcomed that on X.

4:01He said, thank you for this offer, Shabana Mahmood. I will meet with the chair of RAVEC. That's the committee that decides on the risk assessments and therefore the security of high profile individuals in Parliament and indeed in the royal family, because we know that they've had dealings with Prince Harry and discuss the security of all reform politicians, including those who are not MPs. So to be fair, the Labour government has made a move towards helping you. And we're very grateful for that. And of course, and, you know, let's see where the whole thing. I think the unknown is, and it's obviously very fast moving, but given that counterterrorism have now taken control of the whole investigation, which is materially different to assisting Devon and Cornwall police with their investigation.

4:48And the fact they referred in their statement to possible acts, in plural, of terrorism, and the gravity with which the parliamentary authorities and the government are now taking it, infers to us that the officers in the investigation have seen things which cause them a great deal of concern. That's where we're... We'll get on to the investigation, because Martin Evans, our crime editor, has suggested that some of this has been bungled and I know, Jacob, you want to talk about that. Just on the establishment, I mean, you have said it's as though someone in the establishment wants us dead. Now, is that a bit over the top?

5:28Why are you saying that, Richard Tyson? Candidly, because that's how we feel at the moment, Camilla, bluntly. The pile-on, the abuse, the blatant criminality that is going on within parts of the establishment and it's out there. My concerns about, I've spoken in the House of Commons, the National Crime Agency, our most senior crime detection force have broken, they have committed multiple criminal offences against me personally. They've leaked my confidential bank statements, bank transfers, copies of conversations between me and my different bank managers from different banks. They've leaked that to The Guardian deliberately in order to smear, discredit, create innuendo.

6:13And this is what's going on. This is the same time. I mean, the NCA aren't here to defend themselves on that. They're not, but they will have to. I think we need to have this discussion in two different strains, don't we? We need to talk about your personal security. There's another debate to be had about scrutiny into donations to Nigel Farage worth£5 million, your tax affairs, There's legitimate reportage, your legitimate right of reply to such stories. Isn't that a separate strain here? No, it's all part of a politically motivated smear campaign, which is being coordinated by parts of the establishment, parts of mainstream media, led by some people who have actively stated they despise us, they hate us.

6:57And we've had enough and we're calling it out. And it's, you know, it's very difficult. But this is how we feel. And we feel pretty emotional about it, bluntly. And so, yeah, some of this stuff is extraordinary. Richard, I don't dispute the bulk of what you're saying. I think that the establishment does want to stop reform. I put a thing on YouTube a year ago. there about saying, when would Nigel Farage get arrested or words to that effect? Because it's always seemed to me likely that he would be gone for in the way Donald Trump was gone for, Marine Le Pen was gone for. This is the way that the left behave.

7:44Where I would suggest you're going a bit far is saying that they want you dead and that Ravak isn't doing its role. I haven't said that. But if they want you dead, that implies that Ravak isn't doing it properly because it downgraded Nigel's security a year ago, I think the state finds a difficulty, which is that when the IRA were around, they had very good intelligence on what the IRA was doing. And they knew there were threats and they could defend politicians who were subject to a threat. What's happening now is that it seems to be very much lone operators. And that's much harder to get intelligence on.

8:23and what you feel as a politician, and to some extent I've felt, is that there is a generalised threat because the world has become more dangerous. And going in and out of parliament, you find has become more difficult. There's more hostility on the streets. But that's much harder for Ravek to deal with because it could happen to, now we know, not any one of 650 MPs, but any one of the however many ex-MPs there are as well. But Ravek can't possibly provide security to all of them. There aren't the resources in the state to do that. We've got, what is it now, nine former prime ministers who will need protection as of Andy Burnham taking over.

9:08It's an enormously expensive operation. And what do you do in those circumstances? I think there are some specifics. For example, in the quarter of a mile outside the parliamentary estate, there are known nutters, people who've been sectioned, who are milling around the gates, waiting for high-profile recognisable politicians. When I go to a speaking gig anywhere in London, when I've asked for someone from Parliament to come with me, someone with security, for six to nine months, it's always been denied. Always. and I just think there are, so that's all being reassessed. I'm grateful for that reassessment.

9:51It's difficult, but out of this horrific incident, there will be, I guess, some reassessments. But yeah, without question for everybody, because it is the lone individual. A lone individual. They're called lone fixated individuals. because we used to deal with them when the royals were under threat. Right, yeah, that's right. And so there is more of that, and I think we're all having to adjust our thoughts to that. And I know you're right about the scrutiny point, but you see, historically, sort of 20 years ago, you know, the media would, you know, BBC, they might doorstep someone if there's a big story and there'd be a sky camera and a BBC camera and you'd have a microphone in.

10:40when lone fixated individuals they see the mainstream media do that oh they think i can do that now yes i agree uh with my mobile phone so we've had a couple of incidents just recently where where this has happened and it's the it almost sets an example that that's acceptable yes and and this is just part of a fast changing fast moving more dangerous world that we live in that i think we're all having to adapt to and it's very on that brief point just on the because we've got this situation emerging where people think they're journalists. So I know that Mr. Jenrick has been persistently pursued by an individual claiming to be a journalist.

11:16Now, if you're an actual bona fide journalist with a press card, you have to abide by the Ipso Code of Conduct. And actually, if you're told to cease and desist, you must do so. You know, gone are the days of the 1980s, wedging your foot in the door and demanding answers. You can't do that anymore. Equally, you can't harass somebody. You can't turn up at their every occasion if they say, excuse me, back off. It doesn't matter if you're a politician, a celebrity or anyone. You just can't do that. So that's another emerging problem. People pretending that they're journalists simply because they've got mobile phones.

11:46But they are doing that. So that same individual rocked up just before a breakfast roundtable event I had and doorstepped me on my way into this event last Thursday morning and was banging on. I came out of the same event and there were three other young journo bloggers waiting for me. And, you know, so this is just the new world that we're all living in. But blogging and vlogging, just to say, as a bona fide journalist, is not bona fide journalism. It really isn't. Sounds rather trade unionist, that you're protecting your own kind. I don't know. It depends if there's a threat of violence. inevitably I've had people do this and walk alongside and say things and try and get answers and so on.

12:33I've never found it particularly threatening. That's not true. Sometimes you've had people following you who have been shouting behind you. And once or twice I was walked home from the past Westminster by the police because they saw what was happening. And then they told the Speaker, who always got very worried, the Speaker's always taken MP security very, very seriously. I'm disappointed in Zaire Yusuf having Gert him because nobody's applied more concern than Lindsay. But when it's just somebody filming you asking a question, in a democracy isn't that just life? This is the fine line, Jacob, but at the moment now the police have been told not to do what they did with you.

13:12So they're told not to leave the gates. I could be being stabbed five yards outside the gates they've been instructed, stay inside the gates, protect the estate. That's literally where we're at. And this seems to me completely Of course it's bonkers. The estate looks like a prison. But Jacob, if I told you that the situation on the last day of Parliament last year, you don't know if someone's just asking you a few questions or if they've got a long instrument that they're going to stab your neck in. And when you have a couple of bad of these and they're very close to you and they're shouting and ranting.

13:45On that situation, I actually had two of them. And the one of them who was average, if he was doing it to a female MP, I would have said that's outrageous. To a man that was just inside the line, he was telling the other guy who was completely nuts, stop it, you're going over the top. And I thought, you know, yes. So I am a bit sensitive to this. No, I understand. And there used to be a rule that you couldn't have protests within a certain distance of Parliament, which seemed to me a fundamental protection of the rights of MPs to go about their business without being molested, to use the term, in Erskine May.

14:19and you know our right of free access to parliament dates back to 1340 and that ought to be maintained. It's a fundamental right of free speech within parliament. You need to be able to get there and get out. Yes, and I mean in a sense that's so good but at the moment getting in and out can come with its challenges for certain MPs. I mean, I am detective. We know each other well. We've known each other for years. You've known Richard for a long time. Like, you do seem pretty shaken. You seem pretty upset. Yeah, it's not great. It's not plan A. And I think, you know, we've just had one extraordinary week.

15:06Yes. And, you know, I just, you know, this is the toughest bit at the end of a very difficult week. But I do personally feel pretty excised when the agency of the state that is supposed to defend us, the National Crime Agency, I'll never go back to it. I'm going to give the response to your claims because I think we should in the interest of balance. Yeah, but it's really important. In the interest of balance, fine. Yeah. But, you know, this is serious stuff. Okay. It's really serious stuff what they're trying to do. All right. So you've asked for them to investigate alleged leaks and they've responded, the NCA does not confirm or deny the receipt of suspicious activity reports, SARs, nor common and how many SAR is used.

15:56SARs are confidential and breaching that confidentiality risks committing a tipping off offence under the Proceeds of Crime Act. Let's actually move on to discuss the... Well, OK, actually, that's a dreadful response. No, well... In the NCA. I've got no axe to grind for Richard. We'll finish it off there. All I'll say is we wrote them, we wrote exactly two weeks ago, and that was their response then. We've heard nothing since. So we look forward to that in your course. A police agency cannot say an allegation has been made against us of crime, but we can't tell you anything about it because that would be a crime.

16:32That's just a nonsensical answer. And I'm not going out to bat for Richard. We've been in a long time, but we're not members of the same party. yet. Yet. When he becomes a Tory once again. That's right. But I just think we need proper responses and they should clearly do a leak inquiry. Let's wait and see. All right. Just very quickly before we talk about the police investigation and whether it may have been somewhat bungled into Anne Widdicombe's death. It's worth noting that, of course, reform aren't alone in being abused by others. This extraordinary rally where green councillors, green councillors, imagine, attended a transgender rights rally where some protesters repeatedly stabbed darts into an effigy of Andy Burnham.

17:16The demonstration outside Hackney Town Hall called on the Green Run Council to refuse to implement the guidance on single sex spaces. Activists were filmed stabbing darts into the head and eye of an effigy of Burnham, the Prime Minister-in-waiting, who has backed the Supreme Court's ruling on the legal definition of sex. I mean, that's ironic because actually back in the day he was Nicholas Sturgeon on steroids when it came to self-identification. But in what world is it appropriate to be doing that to an effigy of a politician? I think that's absolutely dreadful. But there is a line, and I know I've been put on bonfires, and you can buy a little dog toy of me if your dog to tear to pieces.

17:58Indeed, I've been given them, and my dogs have duly torn them to pieces. I don't think that's too bad. I think Bonfire Night, it's part of our tradition of political protest. But somehow I think that throwing darts at an effigy of an about-to-be prime minister is awful and just goes too far. But there is always a balance in these things between what is... I know, but you're extraordinarily liberal-minded about these matters. Is it because, we discussed it yesterday, of these threats from the IRA that your father received and therefore you're quite... You've grown used to this. You witnessed this as a child.

18:33And that always seemed very serious because we had the armed police living in the house for a few weeks until the people were arrested. They then escaped from Brixton Prison, but that's another matter. And the police, actually, as I was talking about before, behaved really remarkably because we got this call from the IRA. My brother answered the telephone. We were all at home in Somerset. My brother's even more robust than I am, and he told whoever rang up and said, we're going to kill Lord Rhys Morgan, not to be so expletive, deleted, stupid, and put the telephone down. We called the police. We reported it.

19:06And a policeman who was about my age, about 20, came and sat in our house overnight, not knowing whether a terrorist attack was likely to happen or not. And I thought that was stunningly brave. Then nothing happened for a bit. And then suddenly, the armed police came and they moved in. And we had a code word. if the hire over there, we had to get the word Dickens into conversation. Probably really easy. Not difficult in the reason it comes off. Dickens every other sentence. I tried to show that it was serious. And so I've always had confidence that if there were a proper threat, that Ravak would take it seriously and protection would be provided and that you didn't need to ask for it and you didn't need to worry.

19:52Anne Whittacombe's murder is making me begin to change my mind because it does seem as if it were politically motivated. The police bungling is a real problem because they immediately wanted to say it wasn't political. As if they wanted to reassure us that we had nothing to worry about when we may have something to worry about. and, like me, as an ex-politician, or out of Parliament at any rate, and you suddenly think, well, actually, this could be rather more dangerous than I've always previously thought. So I haven't lost all my sense of sanguinity about it, phlegmatism, to use words more accurately, about it, but this does seem to me to be different.

20:39Before you respond to that, in regard to the Devon and Cornwall police investigation, Let me just legally caveat this. A 28-year-old man is still being questioned by police. He's been rearrested under counterterrorism laws. He deserves the right to a fair trial. So we do not want to have any conversations that might be considered subjudice. With that in mind, Richard, were some red flags raised by the way that the police have handled this so far? Look, we want our police to be brilliant and perfect all the time. And there are many times when, of course, they are brilliant, but no one's perfect.

21:18Mistakes get made. That's just the reality of life. And I think, and I raised it in the comments yesterday, I think too often, for whatever reason, our police forces, whenever incidents occur, are very quick to say, this is not terrorism. we don't think it's politically motivated and in a sense what I said was they don't actually need to say that all they need to say is we keep an open mind as to the motive we're looking at all the evidence and they'll have to leave that out there for as long as they are carrying out their investigations and I think that's those are the questions that now are being asked of Devlin and Cornwall Police and it's probably in their training but the question I asked the Home Secretary is I think that needs to be re-looked at.

22:08But then I think the police are somewhat damned if they do and damned if they don't, because if they don't give enough information, then we get misinformation. And to be fair, when it came to the Southport killings, there was a confusion about Axel Rudicabana. Was he an illegal immigrant? Oh, no, it turns out that he's actually the Cardiff-born son of Rwandan asylum seekers. But Jonathan Hall, KC, the government's anti-terrorism czar, is very good on this. And he consistently says, and he said this weekend, that actually where possible, the police should put out more information to avoid misinformation circulating.

22:45So when they said actually that the suspect is a white male, that's a good thing. Yes. Because that reduced misinformation and speculation. But these things have moved fast. We all learn lessons. And I think out of this comes a lesson. Keep the motive open until you know otherwise. Richard's right isn't he that you say what you know you don't say what you don't know and they should have said about Rick Cabana who he was and when they initially started telling us they misled us they basically made him sound like a Welsh choir boy and that was I think deliberately misleading they were right to say white male but whether it was political or terrorism they did not know and they shouldn't have implied that they did know that was their mistake but they're also dealing with just to give the counter argument They're also dealing with, and brings us back to the kind of citizen journalism point, they're dealing with amateur sleuths online recording endless videos.

23:41There'll be loads of people, by the way, down at the scene now recording videos for TikTok, speculating as to what may have gone on in complete contravention of the contempt laws, because apparently they don't apply to anybody online unless you're an actual mainstream broadcaster or news organisation. But that's not true. I mean, anyone listening to this should be warned that they could go to prison for contempt of court. I absolutely agree with you, but you also must agree that people are publishing with impunity online without a clue. I mean, we've spoken to the families of victims of crime.

24:14We know what happened with Nicola Bulley. We know what happened with Jay Slater. These people are just ghoulish, you know, voyeurs. So they don't help. They stoke things up. that could also in the social media era it has changed things somewhat because you then get the world and his mates speculating on a crime whereas in the old days when I used to go up to a copper at the police line with my notebook you'd get a direct exchange of information we'll put this in but don't put that in corporate communications hasn't helped that's broken down communications between the police and journalists that's been problematic so there's a lot at play here I feel that the police are doing a very difficult job That is for sure.

24:55It's not easy to get the right line in a world of 24-7 fast-moving information. There is a question we need to ask, and I don't know the answer to this, but it has been reported that the police' initial reaction was that Anne had had a bad fall. Now, did they therefore follow all the protocols? Did they secure the site for evidence and so on straight away if they thought it was a fall? I think we should be concerned not just about the information, but has the inquiry been carried out properly? And is part of the handing it over to anti-terrorism police that anti-terrorism police didn't think Devon and Cornwall were doing it properly?

25:37Who knows? I hadn't heard that, Jacob. All we do know is that she was originally found by the ambulance service, who then called the police, as I understand. I can also by her gardener. which I think she was found by a garden who then called the ambulance. Very disturbingly, we knew that she had appeared on talk TV with Mark Dolan the day before. We knew she was lined up to appear on Channel 5. Extremely moving tribute by Jeremy Vine and those involved with the show because she appeared on it more than 100 times. And actually it's been very touching to watch some of the old footage of Anne from Louis Theroux documentaries to all the rest of it.

26:15Celebrity big brother, Graham Norton's sofa to remind us just what a wonderful woman she was. And then we've got on the Telegraph website her appearing on a Christian radio station just minutes before we think that she was killed. I'm just going to put one more thing to you, Richard Tice, just because it reflects some of our readers. Some of our readers think that Nigel Farage and the rest of the party have handled this extraordinarily well. They liked the wreath laying and him speaking from the heart at the weekend outside Anne Widdecombe's house. But let me just put this to you. Linda Gilbert writes, We joined Reform and have cancelled our membership.

26:48The way Farage has tried to take over the death of Anne Whiddockham is disgusting. Claiming they are going to uncover any abusive emails, didn't find any, claiming her death was premeditated. He has turned her death into his own me, myself and I, harping on about security for his party and on and on, all to deflect from the total balls he made calling a by-election to prove how much he is loved. He has just found out he isn't, etc, etc. That is a view. And that's the joy of democracy. And isn't it brilliant that those views could all be expressed in the same comments under an article? I mean, in a sense, that's the great stabilizer.

27:25You get some good comments and then you get some challenging comments. And it keeps us all, frankly, our feet on the ground and hopefully sort of recognizing that there's always a balance to this. You're never going to please everybody. That literally is what a democracy is all about. it's the ability to say well done or terribly done. Yes, exactly. Telegraph readers are very good at that, by the way. And it's a very polite view. It's not a view I share. I think it's unreasonable, but it's not sweary. It's not aggressive. It's just calmly saying that your reader thinks that the response of reform hasn't been good.

28:09But the great thing for us is, the Shariot Freshers say, okay, the next three, six, nine months, we might convince that particular reader that actually we still are the right answer. Who knows? All right. Well, at the moment, you're still ahead in the polls. 24 % for reform according to the latest YouGov polling. Conservatives on 19, Labour on 19, Greens on 15, blah, blah, blah. But in the meantime, Richard Tice, stay safe. And I mean that genuinely. And thank you very much indeed for joining us in the flesh for the first time on The Daily Tea, which I'm going to call your favourite podcast. Definitely.

28:42It's your favourite podcast, but State of the Nation is your favourite TV programme. That's awesome. I know, he loves my show on a Sunday morning. I think I'm like... What, Camilla? Occasionally... GB News. GB News, all right. Occasionally you're carried off on a stretcher. You think you always win our battles, don't you? You say it's 2-0, it's 2-1, and I'm... I much prefer presenting with Camilla than being thrilled by Camilla. I know, it's the spirit of competition. Richard Tice, thank you very much indeed. Thank you. Jacob, you raised the spectre of Richard Tice eventually ending up in the Conservative Party earlier.

29:13I spoke to yesterday Douglas Carswell, previously of your parish, then of UKIP, and once the MP for Clacton, and he's also angling for a right-wing pact.

29:28Is your kid's birthday coming up? Don't stress the prep. The Party Shop at Michael's is your one-stop shop for everything from bluey to rodeo. Transform your space into a birthday wonderland with dream-worthy tablescapes and decor starting at 99 cents. Plus, get free helium inflation on select balloon styles. Whether you're crafting a one-of-a-kind bash or grabbing the essentials, Michaels has everything to make their big day legendary. Shop now and order ahead for delivery or in-store pickup. Michaels, everything to celebrate anything.

30:10Nirav Modi was a billionaire diamond tycoon whose jewelry was worn by Hollywood stars like Kate Winslet. But in 2018, he was accused of masterminding one of the world's biggest ever bank frauds, and he disappeared. This is the extraordinary story of the rise and fall of Nirav Modi. And of how we caught him. He was in the news all the time. Where is New York Moby? Why can we not find it? He's one of the most sought-after criminals in India. You owe a lot of people a lot of money, Mr Modi, who would very much like to know where you are. Sorry, no comment. The Indians will think we're a laughingstock.

30:51Here we are seven years later still speaking about this case. They think it's a sham. The Diamond King, a new podcast from The Telegraph. With me, Mick Brown. and me, Robert Mendick. Out now.

31:11The former MP Douglas Carswell, thank you very much for joining me on The Daily Tea. Very timely that we should speak to you because you used to be the MP for Clacton famously, but also it's a troubling time to be speaking to you because I'd imagine that you knew Anne Whittacombe very well. I knew her slightly. I didn't know her particularly well. I knew her slightly. In fact, I remember sitting on a train with her on the way to Clacton. I think she was going to speak at an event at Clacton Town Hall. She was someone that believed very clearly in a set of principles and a set of values. And she was one of those rare people in politics who stuck to what she believed in, even if it didn't advantage her in the short term.

31:58She knew what she was about. She had a decency and an approachability to her. I'm very concerned and alarmed indeed at the news that seems to be emerging in fits and starts in the UK. It seems as if she may well have been murdered. It may well, the facts are still emerging, but it may well have been a terror related murder. and it may have been because of her views and her beliefs. Now, that's something completely alien to the British political tradition. We very rarely, until very recently, we very rarely had political violence associated with our politics. People may have agreed and disagreed and done so vociferously and vigorously, but the idea that someone in public office or a former minister should be targeted for their beliefs, that was just completely alien to our tradition.

32:57So I think it's very, very sobering times. If I was a member of parliament, I would almost certainly probably be a reformed member of parliament or maybe I could possibly just about be a conservative member of parliament. I would be feeling very nervous right now. Yes, I agree with you. And it should be pointed out that you're there, you've got a Mississippi sign behind your head because you've been living in the US now since 2021. Of course, you've had your fair share of concerning incidents there. The attempts on Donald Trump's life, of course, the murder of Charlie Kirk. We can't speculate too much, Douglas, because a man is in custody, has been rearrested under those counterterrorism offences.

33:40But obviously, proceedings are active. I was just thinking back to the time when you defected to UKIP from the Conservatives in 2014. and I'd imagine at the time you probably felt like you had a bit of a target on your back because UKIP was quite, well, it was more, it was considered a more controversial political movement then than, say, reform is today. I mean, did you ever have periods where you worried about your own public safety? Very much so. In fact, I wrote to the Speaker of the House and I think the Home Secretary asking if they could do an analysis, a review of my safety, and I'll tell you why.

34:15There was a very nasty incident shortly after I was elected as UKIP's only member of parliament in the 2015 election when a mob surrounded me and threatened me and the police had to come and rescue me. And I was told by various people that I could have used public money, short money, to essentially have a private vehicle drive me. And I refused to do that. I feel very, very strongly now and I felt very strongly then that in a civilized society, elected representatives should be using public transport. I refused to do anything other than take the tube or the bus into the commons every day. But there were some pretty nasty incidents.

34:56And I'll be frank with you, Camilla. The real nastiness happened after the Brexit referendum, not before the Brexit referendum, but after the Brexit referendum. I think a lot of times columnists who demonized UKIP and who demonized the Brexit result have a moral responsibility for stirring up a climate of animus in the immediate aftermath of the Brexit referendum. I just wonder if now is the time for columnists who are full of self-righteousness to pause and reflect a little bit. Do they sometimes demonize their opponents to the point where they perhaps create a nasty, hostile environment? Now, I'm not saying any of this in the context of what's happened to Anne Whittakin.

35:47We don't know the facts. But my own experience left me feeling rather jaded and left me feeling rather disillusioned. I felt that I had played the democratic rules as they're meant to be played. I changed parties. I called a by-election. I was clear about the fact I wanted Britain to leave the European Union I advocated for that at every opportunity I put that in my election manifesto and yet the relentless demonisation by the sort of smug centrist ads who write for certain newspapers I think created an environment in which sheer nastiness in public spaces was legitimised Sure, although I can reflect on that myself, Douglas, as a columnist You know, I work for the Sunday Express.

36:32I was unrelenting in my criticism of Jeremy Corbyn at the time. I've been similarly, I mean, pretty forthright in my views of this Labour government of Keir Starmer. I mean, it's the same on the podcast. I think we need to have space for pretty punchy commentary. I think we should have space on it on all sides. instead of reflecting perhaps on this case, because as you know and as we've discussed, we don't know the facts yet. Joe Cox, David Amess, these were two politicians on either side of the ideological divide. They're united by the fact that somebody has killed them as they are going about their work as an MP.

37:13I remember other incidents that were unremarked at the time. People thought it was funny that Nigel Farage was attacked by someone throwing things at him. George Galloway, I seem to remember several years ago, not a man that I have much in common with politically, but I seem to remember he was once physically assaulted. I think Tommy Robinson on the London Underground quite recently was physically assaulted. Yes, although he did later assault somebody at a station too. We know about the attempted egging of John Prescott. Then, of course, he punched somebody who was on a walkabout. I mean, we have witnessed this, but when assaults turn to death, It's worrying.

37:52Yeah, it is. You need free speech, but you need, I think, to have laws and rules in place that show that if you take it upon yourself to assault someone running for public office because you disagree with them, a good 10, 15 years in the nick, I think, is needed. I think you need that sort of zero-tolerance punishment. You cannot physically use violence against people because they say stuff you disagree with. End of conversation. I'm going to ask you about Nigel Farage's by-election in Clacton in just a minute, but just clear something up for me because I don't quite know what the nature of your relationship is now like with the leader of Reform UK.

38:33You became an independent, I think, in 2017. Did you fall out with Farage? Just refresh my memory. I did. I mean, I'm on good texting terms with him. Weirdly, I was actually exchanged a couple of lighthearted comments with him the very day he announced he was going to be standing down and calling a by-election in Clacton. I've had my ups and downs with him, but I have huge admiration for him. And I think it's wonderful to see him now doing what I was doing, the Member of Parliament for Clacton. And he's called a by-election rather like I did 12 years ago. I suspect that's because 12 years ago when he sat next to me at a press conference in London and listened to me announce that I was going to be calling a by-election and standing down as the member of Parliament for Clacton, I think that probably had quite an impact on him.

39:25And I suspect he's trying to do something rather similar now, put his future in the hands of Clacton voters, approach them with an air of humility and allow them to be the ultimate arbiters of whether or not he stays in the House of Commons. But different circumstances, Douglas. I mean, you called that by-election because you switched sides and that's fair enough. And in fact, you could say to the likes of Robert Jenrick and others, I mean, you've defected, you should have called your own by-elections and tried out your new team, so to speak, on your electorate. But no matter. This is about him trying to take on the establishment because of the investigation into the£5 million donation by Christopher Harbourn, right?

40:12It's different circumstances. is? I think so. I mean, I think you're absolutely right about all of those things. Those are points that I'll leave for others to make and you've made them and I won't take issue with any of them. I would just say when I stood down as the Member of Parliament for Clacton, I was doing it because I was changing parties and I felt I needed permission from the people who had elected me to do that. I put myself on the back foot and I put Clacton people first and foremost. I made it very clear that this wasn't about me, this was about them. I was putting my future in their hands.

40:48I think Nigel would be very wise to make sure that he puts it that way, that he approaches them with a degree of humility. He mustn't make this all about him. If this is all about him, it could go wrong. He needs to make it about Clacton people. He is putting his future with a huge air and degree of humility in their hands. And I think if he does that, I think he'll do well. If it's all about him, well, you know, that could be hostage to fortune. But then in your case, again, thinking back, you obviously had an opponent in the Conservatives and you had an opponent in Labour. And for Clacton and the people of Clacton, it was a choice between if you're a righty, do you want to keep on supporting the Blues or do you want to pivot towards UKIP?

41:35Of course, that contest is not going to be held because we know that it's basically Nigel Farage versus Count Binface. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I'm rather surprised. I mean, if anyone had approached me and said, hey, I'm thinking of doing this, what do you think? I would have said, hold on. A Clacton by-election in 2026 may not be a repeat of Carswell's Clacton by-election 12 years ago. it may be a repeat of the David Davis by-election in 2008, where David Davis rather eccentrically, I think, is the way to put it, called a by-election over some obtuse point to do with human rights. Yes, it was about the detention of terrorists.

42:17Yeah. He resigned. The Libs and the Labour Party, I think, didn't contest it. It was seen as slightly all about David. and I just wonder why no one in Team Nigel thought maybe hang on that it may end up being a David Davis by-election rather than another Clacton by-election. What can you tell us about the character of Mr Farage? I mean, it's quite a gamble, this, as we've discussed. You've had your falling out with him in the past. It's often been said that, you know, he has this habit of falling out with other big fish in the pond, you, Rupert Lowe, there's quite a lengthy list. Is this guy fit to govern the UK, do you think, Douglas?

43:03I mean, I think look at the other alternatives. Nigel is back in business because the alternatives are pretty dreadful. Now, one caveat, there's a question mark over the Conservatives under Kemi. At first glance, I was slightly dismissive of her. I'm wondering whether that's right. Maybe she's grown into the role. But look about Nigel. I'm in the country that produced Ronald Reagan, and Ronald Reagan once very famously said the 11th commandment for Conservatives is, thou shalt not speak ill of fellow Conservatives. And I didn't always live up to that when I was a member of Parliament in the UK, partly because many of the people I criticised in the Conservative Party probably weren't real Conservatives.

43:45But Nigel is a real Conservative, and I'm not going to criticise him. I huge admire his resilience. He's like the juror of Solbani. He keeps going. I know there have been occasions when I've disagreed with him. But actually, in a weird way, it makes it easier in politics, I think, to get on with people if you know where you stand with them. Nigel's told me what he thinks, not what he thinks I want to hear and vice versa. And that actually makes it easier to work with people in the long term. I've got huge respect for Nigel. There are issues that I think were clear 10 years ago at the time of the Brexit referendum in Team Nigel.

44:29And I'm hoping that by having people like Danny Kruger and James Orr, some of those issues about how collegiate he is, what kind of team he's got around him, I'm hoping that some of those have been and are being addressed. Well, that's really interesting, though. You've said two really interesting things during this discussion that I didn't expect you to say. The first is that you said that if you were still in UK politics, you might be in reform or you might be in the Conservatives, which is intriguing to me because you left the latter because you felt they were too wet, that they weren't right-wing enough.

45:06So my first conclusion is that you think Kemi Badenok is the real deal when it comes to being a proper blue-blooded Tory, right? She could be. I mean, look at it another way. For 30 years, Britain has been governed by a succession of Blairite governments. The Blairite Revolution of 1997 put into the deep state a series of administrations, a series of permanent officials that shared assumptions on multiculturalism, on immigration, on EU integration, on how to manage an economy with low interest rates, on climate change and the read for renewable energy. the Tories tragically bought into that under Cameron.

45:49I think we're beginning to see the signs that Kemi Badendock and the Conservatives under her are beginning to reject the orthodoxies of the past 30 years. Now, it's early days, but if that happens, it's not just about immigration, it's not just about Europe, on economic growth. If she begins to write a fundamentally post-Blairite script for the Conservatives, then I think the Conservative Party could be back in business. I think the really significant thing over the past few months is not so much that Kemi Bendok has improved, although she has. I think a really important thing is that Dan Hannon, who is an independent, he's not aligned to any political party, but Dan Hannon has been put in charge of the IEA, a think tank in London, and the IEA is starting to write a really important script about how a new government can come in and achieve economic growth and fundamentally change the way that the British economic system operates.

46:51Because the current system, 30 years of Blairite economics has failed. It's produced this sclerotic, indebted country that is poorer now than Mississippi. I think you're starting to see within the broader conservative movement, congregating around the Conservative Party, some really interesting developments. And if I was starting out in politics, I think I would see that as an opportunity to invest my time and effort, because you need someone to rescue the country. It could be Danny Kruger's lot. It could be Kemi Badenlot's lot. You're talking about it being Danny Kruger's lot. That was going to lead me on to my second observation, which is that you think reform is improved by the Tories in its midst.

47:33Absolutely. Yes. But that doesn't give me much faith in reform if you think reform can only perform well if it's got a load of ex-conservatives in it. Let me put it another way. Imagine that you are the Prime Minister and you have just won a majority and you walk into number 10 Downing Street. I fear that whether you're Nigel Farage or Kimmy Bedendog, there's a real danger that you walk in there and it's the same pattern we've seen. The country thinks you're going to make changes. You end up buying into all the failed orthodoxies that Sir Humphreys and the bureaucrats and the machinery around you mean that you carry on doing the same failed policies on everything.

48:15Low interest rates to try and stimulate growth, all the failed approaches on climate change and immigration and what have you. The only way we're going to get out of this mess, and forget the personalities for a moment, the only way we're going to get out of this mess is if you go in there with a plan, you fire the civil servants who have been in charge of the failure for 30 years, You put your people in and you drive forward the changes you need so that you don't have judicial review, making sure we can't stop the boats, making sure you don't have judicial activism, frustrating us from controlling our borders, making sure you don't have officials in the Bank of England, preventing us from having the sorts of economic policies we want.

48:56You need to go in there with a plan. Now, the reason why I talked about Danny Kruger is because Danny's understood this and he's coming up with a plan. Sure. And there may be people around Kemi who've understood this and are coming up with a plan. But now it sounds to me then, Douglas Carswell, to conclude that you've got one of your toes dipped in blue water, one of your toes dipped in turquoise water. And actually, in the world, according to Mr Carswell, what you'd quite like is a reform Tory mashup to lead the country post-2029. I'm fully immersed in Mississippi, where we've overtaken Britain economically.

49:33But if I was in the UK, that's what I would want. I would want Kemi Badendoc and Danny Kruger and Nigel Farage and the best of both of those political parties to get together. Now, personality gets in the way. People aren't rational. Perhaps with the perspective of being away 4 ,000 miles on this side of the Atlantic, I have a detachment from the bruised personalities. But I'm hoping for the sake of the country that out of this contest on the right, you get a really radically new party or a new force emerging. It could be a coalition before an election, it could be after, but there are good people on both sides of the divide and it would be tragic, wouldn't it be awful, Camilla, if the Labour Party under Burnham got given a mandate for another five years because the right can't sit down and get its act together?

50:23Well, of course, that would be a tragedy of sorts because we want a very strong right and a very strong left in a functioning democracy in the UK. Okay, final very quick question. Just for those who aren't watching and listening to this, we've got a Mississippi sign in a kind of neon colour and then what appears to be a chainsaw behind Douglas's shoulder. Just very quickly explain why. Is this, I mean, you're not in Texas, so it can't be a chainsaw massacre thing. What's going on here? Argentina, Malay, his emblem was a chainsaw. Isn't it extraordinary how Britain has turned into what Argentina was and Argentina has turned into what Britain under Margaret Thatcher used to be.

51:03Margaret Thatcher would be spinning in her grave if she could see that. Douglas, I don't want to talk about England and Argentina at all ahead of Femmes Bay night, which I presume that you'll be watching with bells on. Absolutely. That World Cup clash. Douglas Carswell, thank you very much indeed for joining me on The Daily Tea. Great to speak to you. Fun times tomorrow, Jacob, because guess what we've got to analyse? We've got the last ever Keir Starmer at PMQ. unless, of course, he does a Frank Sinatra and comes back in a few years' time. I think it's unlikely, but one should never rule this out.

51:36We will be bringing you that tomorrow, 5pm.

52:02Is your kid's birthday coming up? Don't stress the prep. The Party Shop at Michaels is your one-stop shop for everything from bluey to rodeo. Transform your space into a birthday wonderland with dream-worthy tablescapes and decor starting at 99 cents. Plus, get free helium inflation on select balloon styles. Whether you're crafting a one-of-a-kind bash or grabbing the essentials, Michaels has everything to make their big day legendary. Shop now and order ahead for delivery or in-store pickup. Michaels, everything to celebrate anything.