Who wins? Tories and Reform battle it out in fight for the Right

0:02The Telegraph.

0:10Fight! It's Conservative versus Reform and we have two heavyweights from the party to duke it out over who you should vote for. Conservative Party Chairman Kevin Hollingrake versus Tim Montgomery. Once a Tory, now a massive Nigel Farage fan. You won't want to miss it. Welcome to The Daily Tea with me, Tim Stanley. And me, Camilla Tominy.

0:40Tim, before we invite reform and the Tories in to duke it out, I've got a little prezzy for you. Oh, have you? Yes. Oh, this is genuinely unexpected. Look. Oh, thank you. Oh, how embarrassing. I haven't got anything for you. First of all, we revealed yesterday you hadn't sent me a Christmas card. You know my season's greetings are implied. I know they are. I'm hoping that my Christmas present will be that you pray for me in general. Yeah, I will. I will certainly think of you while I'm abroad. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, my golly. Oh, these are wonderful. They are socks with my dog Bertie on. Look, can we, can we, are we able to pan in?

1:24No expense, as you can see, has been spared on these rather polyester socks. They're beautiful. Thank you. I was going to go into your phone and then I thought that was a bit invasive. So I raided. I had to search your socials to find a picture of Bertie's little face. Oh, that's really kind. And if I don't wear them, he will chew them. So that's really sweet of you. What he likes to do is find my clothes and put them into a nest and sleep on them. So no doubt he will enjoy these. I thought you could wear them on your journey to Prague. I certainly shall. Actually, they're pretty tight. They're going to stop deep vein brombosis, aren't they?

1:58Well, actually, they could double up. Yeah, as a flight safety mechanism. I love that. Also, I'd like to see a photograph of you in shorts with them pulled up to your knee. You want me to prove that I've worn them? Yes, please. I am wearing a kilt over New Year, so I could wear them. Also, the other photograph we need, don't forget, because some of the listeners have been in touch. We do need to see Bertie introduced to Father Christmas. Oh, yes, don't worry. Don't worry, I will get that. Yeah, don't worry. I'm paying good money for that, Kennels. I'm going to get my photo. On the Christmas theme.

2:30At Christmas this year, families often have rows around the table. Yes. And we're going to recreate that atmosphere. The joy of it. With most people, it's a young lefty and an older righty. But being the telegraph, this is two old righties. Oh! I'm not sure we can accept that, Kevin. I think that. I definitely am, too. Representing the Conservative Party, we have Kevin Hollenrake, the party's chair. And representing reform, we have a former Conservative, Conservative, defector to reform, and now head of its Christian Fellowship? Yeah, honorary president of its Christian Fellowship, but primarily just a reform supporter.

3:05Tim Montgomery. I'm surprised, Kevin, you're going to let Tim describe you as the Conservative Party chair rather than the chairman. Oh, is it chairman? Well, I'd go by either. Chairperson. You've just been called everything in this job, don't you? Chairperson. Or in these days of inclusion, we could call him chairwoman. And nobody could object. We definitely say chairman in Yorkshire. At the meeting of the liaison committee, the chair, Meg Hillier, said, I note the press are all men. She said, all the gentlemen of the press, and it is all gentlemen. And I replied, you're assuming a lot there.

3:37Yes. I could be mid-transition. She doesn't know. No, she doesn't. Thank goodness those socks are unisex. Kevin and Tim, let's be honest, you two know each other, you like each other, you agree on almost everything apart from your party membership right now. So let's begin with the question to top all questions. I want you both to do a little spiel. We'll start with Kevin. Why should people vote for the Conservatives rather than reform? Well, first and foremost, it's about leadership. And I think Kemi Baer-Knock is the right person to lead this country. She is authentic. She's got courage. She's got the courage of her convictions.

4:18and she's been very consistent over the years. So we're also the only party at centre-right on the economy. Every other party, including Tim's party, wants to lift the two-child cap on benefits, which I think is wrong. And we've got a good team of people, a proven team of people. And all those things contrast, I think, with every other party, not just Tim's, every other party. So they're the reasons. If people want some optimism, some hope, but also somebody who will tackle some of the systemic and big issues we have in our society, then Kemi Beard knocks the right choice, in my view. And Tim Montgomery?

4:53Well, look, I'll start with the Conservative Party very briefly. They sold people a car before they entered office and that car, the wheels fell off on the motorway. Taxes went up, immigration went up, home ownership went down. Basically, everything people expected to happen didn't happen and what they didn't expect to happen did happen. The Conservative Party still hasn't explained why everything went so wrong. The one person in British politics who has been absolutely clear on what he believes for a long time, whether it's the control of immigration, whether it's that net zero is an unaffordable thing that we shouldn't have ever committed to, and whether we're living beyond our means is Nigel Farage.

5:35Nigel Farage is the absolute person who's got the main issues right in British politics. for a long time. So I'm afraid the Conservative Party don't deserve another chance until they've explained why they did so manifestly fail. And Nigel Farage deserves the chance because he has been right on the big issues of our time. Let's move to the economy. Let's begin there. You're right, Tim, that we all know what Nigel Farage believes about Brexit, etc. But he's now offering to form a government. And you're way ahead in the polls, far ahead of the Tories and Labour, though Labour seem to be the ones really doing badly at the moment.

6:09But when it comes to polling on the economy, the Tories have a slight edge over reform, perhaps because of experience. But also, I think there's a sense of definition there that people do think it is a small state, low tax party. And Kemi has come up with a policy, which many of us quite like, which is abolition of stamp duty. What is the reform pitch on the economy that's different from the Tories? And can you convince us that Nigel Farage really has a plan that goes beyond immigration and Brexit? Well, I think there's a really good contrast on the economy, actually. The fact is, at the Tory conference, the Tories panicked.

6:46They said up until that conference, they would have no policies. Then suddenly they had policies coming out of their ears. And they came out with policies coming out of their ears because they were in trouble. It probably saved Kemmy Baden-Ock's leadership. But on the eve of what might be Britain's biggest fiscal crisis, the Conservative leader took a decision to offer unaffordable tax cuts. Now, I like you, Tim, I would love to have a big cut in stamp duty. But by employing savings that they couldn't make in government, they say they could afford this stamp duty cut. That was Kemi Baden-Ock's panicked position.

7:20Nigel Farage, what did Nigel Farage do at the Bankers Hall? I think both of you were there for that speech. What he said was, look, I've made promises in the past. It's now clear the country is living well beyond this means we can't afford them. I'm going to scrap those promises, which is a difficult decision, but we're not going to make promises to the British people that can't be kept. So one party, supposedly the party of economic responsibility, is promising unaffordable tax cuts, and reform is promising economic sensible policies. So I think the contrast is really sharp, and actually I'm surprised how the Conservative Party has got away with this position.

7:55Kevin? For Tim to say that somehow we rush policies out, I mean, everybody, all the time, in my sense... We weren't going to have policies, Kevin. Not forever, Tim. What we said was we'd wait and make sure we got the policies right and we costed them properly and we analysed the costs and see how we can make the changes and then we'd announce them. That's what Kemi's very brave position. Most people, most politicians, do rush stuff out to get a headline and then try and make it up as they go along. So what Kemi did is went away and got her ministers and got Helen Wakeley and Mel Stride, Shadow Chancellor and Shadow Working Pensions Secretaries of State to say, okay, how are we going to make the savings we need to make?

8:36And they found£47 billion of saving, particularly around welfare, not lifting that two-child cap on benefits, but reducing people's access to welfare for things like low-level mental health conditions, which most people can see have ballooned in recent years, and we can talk about the reasons for that. But anyway, that's where the savings are coming from, £47 billion,£23 billion. from that and from the civil service. And that pays for the stamp duty and the business rates cut. So that's the order of priorities where what you see from other leaders, including Keir Starmer before he got into office, made absolutely no promises other than they were going to grow the economy, had no plan to do so.

9:14And I've got to say, with Nigel Farage and for reform, what you hear, and Nigel Farage, it is a one-man band party. You know that, Tim. And he keeps throwing these promises out. So the 2024 manifesto had£150 billion of tax cuts and spending commitments. And now he says that was all nonsense, fantasy economics. I can't do that now because everything's changed. And Nigel France does this all the time. He does it on small boats. A few months ago, he was going to tow them back to northern France. Now he realises he can't and more or less reformed have adopted our position, which is a deportation strategy.

9:51Local government, you were going to cut council tax right across the board and improve services. We see virtually all the reform-led councils increasing council tax by the maximum. In fact, Worcester's trying to increase it by 10%, the one you're running. Nigel Farage committed to closing the asylum hotels in West Northamptonshire within days. That was on, I think, the 11th of November. We've seen nothing since. Nigel Farage, all the time, I think he wants the best for this country. All the time he makes commitments he just can't deliver upon, where Kemi Badenock has got a strategy, develop the policies and then announce them.

10:23And I think that's the right way to do it. Is that right, Tim Montgomery? Because there is, I suppose, some rhetoric around both of your parties and how much deep thinking it's doing. And I suppose the counter argument to Kemi Badenock's approach is she's taking too much time and we're in a 24-hour news cycle and just get on with it. Let us know where you stand on all of these issues. and then reform are quite often accused of back-of-the-fag-packet type policies, possibly a reference to the fact that your leader, Nigel Farage, quite likes Benson and Hedges. I mean, is it fair for Kevin to say that you don't think things through?

11:02No, I don't think so. And, look, the thing is, we are still relatively young in this Parliament. There's about three years... I think Labour will go to term. It's one area where I do disagree with Nigel Farage. I don't think there'll be an early election. There's no way Labour MPs are going to vote for their extinction. Why does he keep on saying that then? I think it's partly to keep activists happy and energised, but personally I think we'll go to term. And therefore I'm launching a website in the new year. When I joined Reform, a lot of people thought, are you going to relaunch Conservative Home?

11:33Are you going to launch Reform Home? Well, what I'm going to launch is 900 Days, a website called 900 Days. And it's basically going to be a way of holding Reform accountable. because I still primarily see myself as a journalist as much as an activist, the reform have 900 days to get their policies right. And I think what you'll see, particularly after May's local elections, is the biggest, most open, most digital policy formation exercise you've ever seen in British politics. There is no point taking a position on cutting taxes now when we do not know what the fiscal position is going to be. This is why Kevin is doing his good job spinning the policy, but they've rushed into a panicked position.

12:16I bet you, a sportsman's bet, Kevin, or anyone around this table, that policy on stamp duty that the Tories have announced will have to be junked before the next election. How much is that meant to be costing, Kevin? The stamp duty scrappage scheme. The stamp duty is only on primary dwelling, so it's about£4 billion in current money. By the time you get to 2029, I think it's about£8-9 billion. That meant it's going up to 20 billion. One thing I'd just say, a couple of things I'd say about what you said, Tim, and I do have enormous respect for you. It's mutual. When you talk about your young party, Nigel Farage is not young.

12:50He's my age. I'm not young. This is about values. He knows how politics works. To say, well, we're young, so we rush policy, you know, I didn't say we rush policy. I said we're doing things at the right time. At the moment, we're fighting elections and beating you almost everywhere, which will carry on. You talk about Nigel Farage being a one-person band. The fact is that we're getting close to 300 ,000 members. You'll soon be below 100 ,000 members the way you're carrying on. One party is growing, one party is declining. No, it's an answer to your question from Camilla as about the question, you get some things wrong, go eat quite a young party.

13:27That's no excuse for saying things you know you cannot deliver. Now, I get the point about trust. Trust is the currency of politics, and I understand why we lost trust, which is how this debate started on Twitter when we challenged each other to a debate. It's going to take us a long time to rebuild that. And we are rebuilding, and there's no doubt some of our election results are not where we want them to be right now. But just my experience of Kemi, I worked for her when she was business secretary. I was the business minister for the post office. And everything I saw about Kemi is that she went into...

13:59When she committed to do something, she did it. And so I do have confidence she'll deliver on it. I don't want not to deliver the stuff we've committed to, and we can talk about why we didn't deliver last time. But to me, Kemi's got the courage to do it. So what we did with the post office, when I was post office minister, the compensation wasn't going out the door fast enough. Kemi challenged me, why isn't it going out the door fast enough? I'd only been in the job a few months. And I said, well, this is the reason we need to do these fixed sum awards rather than a complicated compensation calculation.

14:28She went straight into bat off that, into the treasury, fought the corner, and we got that money for the postmasters. and that was her win, not mine. So I do believe she'll deliver on this stuff. You made a contribution. You were a brilliant minister. The trouble was there weren't enough good ministers in the Tory government and I don't think you fundamentally still as a party answered the question. I'm old enough to remember the first 18 years of Conservative government I lived under, under Thatcher and Major. They were transformational for this country. They've made me a committed Conservative for over three decades.

14:58And then I contrast that period with the five prime ministers we had from 2010 until until recently. They were wasted years, worse than wasted years. Britain is a declining nation because of Conservative government, not just Labour government. Let's pick up on that point. And that still hasn't been answered as a question of why that happened. Let's pick up on that point. Kevin, the Reform Party's Achilles heel is inexperience. Nigel Farage sometimes openly says we're not ready for government. Your Achilles heel is we know you too well. Is it just not too soon to vote Conservative? Because you raised taxes.

15:31The welfare spending binge happened under you. And the boats came across the channel under the Tories. Do you not just accept that you're not going to win the next election because we remember too well what it was like under you? I don't accept that. I think we can win the next election and we need to win this next election. We need to get those things right, of course. But you look what happened over since 2010. We inherited the biggest deficit this country had ever seen outside wartime. 153 billion quid deficit that's 253 billion in today's money we balanced the books for day-to-day spending over that 10 year period there's 4 million more people working in our economy 1.2 million fewer people unemployed our schools less than 70 % of them good outstanding today 90 % we built record numbers of houses we got record numbers of first-time buyers a million first-time buyers on the housing ladder so there was many things we got right of course events in politics it's events isn't it And we saw, obviously, Brexit wasn't an easy thing.

16:28Whatever you argue about it, there was going to be some economic fallout from it, and clearly there was, and political fallout from it. But just to interrupt, as Tim mentioned Thatcher, Maggie had events, but the point is she got out the other side of her 11 years with a vision for a country that had changed because of her life. And we need that vision again. I accept that. I'm not saying we didn't make mistakes. We definitely made mistakes on migration. We definitely made mistakes on welfare. I accept that totally. But Margaret actually didn't have to suffer a COVID pandemic. I mean, that was massive.

16:59And then the cost of living crisis that followed for Ukraine and the opening up of economies internationally. So there were unique challenges. But listen, I agree with Tim is that at times our leadership got it wrong. We weren't tough enough. We tried to be all things to all people. And success breeds complacency. We kept getting elected. We were successful. We got complacent. And that leads to failure. That happens in business like politics. So what we need now is a strong leader who will make sure we deliver on our promises. And I believe that's Gemi Bairdnock.

17:40Tim Montgomery. I keep on saying Tim Montgomery because I'm trying to make sure... Too many Tim. I know, I'm getting confused. I'm under attack here. I usually call you Monty. I think I'm just going to call you Monty for the rest of this podcast. While we're speaking about the great Iron Lady, is Nigel Farage a serious enough figure to become Prime Minister? In the sense that you did support Boris Johnson once. And deep down, many people that supported Boris Johnson had this internal monologue. I like the guy. I think he's charismatic. I think he's a good orator. I think he can reach parts of the electorate that others can't.

18:19he's fun, I want to have a pint with him. If I were a black cabbie, I would want to have him in the back of the car. Those are all great attributes, particularly in politics, when it is about character and personality and charisma, but sometimes they don't translate well to office. And many people who know Nigel Farage see all of these positives, but they say organisationally he can be found wanting, he isn't across the detail, he is at times megalomaniacal, He does have a God complex. These are all quite legitimate concerns. Can he be a good prime minister? What evidence can you give us to say that he might be able to emulate some of Thatcher's greatness?

19:01I'm going to be really honest with you. I've now been a reform member for over a year. And my impression is Nigel is better than I expected him to be. Reform as a party is still not as organised and strong as it needs to be. And I think we have a lot of work over the next three years to build a party that addresses some of the concerns that Kevin has legitimately expressed. With Nigel, whenever he has set himself a task, whether it's to put the small boats issue on the agenda, whether it's to take Britain out of the European Union, whether it's to change public opinion on net zero, he has succeeded.

19:38He's built campaigns that have changed the direction of this country. I think most people, if they had to name a politician in the modern era who has made most difference to British politics, I think most people would choose Nigel Farage. But this is, to answer your question directly, Camilla, what he now has to do is the biggest challenge of his career. Can he convince people that he is a prime minister in waiting? This is a leap that, you know, Kemi Baden-Wantt needs to take as well. We have to prove that. And the exercise that I briefly sort of outlined earlier, this online, this transparent policy formation process that will begin in earnest after the local election, that will be the big moment.

20:21And all I ask is the election isn't now, the general election isn't now, it isn't next year, it will be in three years' time. The question we need to absolutely be able to answer is your question by then. And I think that policy process, where we really show in a very transparent way, draft legislation ready to go on day one, policies set out which have been examined, a manifesto published months in advance of a general election, so there's no surprises, Nigel, I think, will deliver that. And I think then we will have an answer to your question. But, yeah, it is the question reform has to answer.

20:54He's unquestionably charismatic, but he's not uncontroversial. And right now he has been hit with an anti-Semitism scandal. At the same time as Jews have been killed on Bondi Beach in Australia, anti-Semitism is clearly a current problem in our society. You know, some reformers have tried to brush this off as this is bans from the 1970s. It's not. It's something people still live with today. How do you feel about the accusations against Nigel Farage? And has he handled them the way a prime minister should? Well, look, if I thought that Nigel Farage was a racist or an anti-Semite, I would be nowhere near reform.

21:30You know, we're both Christians, Tim. I think every person is made in the image of God. And to judge someone because of their skin color or because of their religion is a sin against God. It's an offense against God. So, look, I don't know that I wasn't there in the school playground. And let's remember it was a school playground. It was 50 years ago. I was at university with Sasha Javid, Robert Halford. I came from a very sort of white background. And then I was with Asians and Jews. And, you know, we used to take the mickey out of each other. It was never with malice. But, you know, it's what boys, it's what men do sometimes.

22:03I think if Nigel Farage was guilty of sexism or racism or homophobia in modern times, that would be a different criteria. But actually, if you talk to a lot of serious leaders of the Jewish community today, they will regard Nigel Farage as one of their greatest friends. It was Richard Tice who was in the Parliament Square. I expect the Tories were represented as well. But there was a vigil of some kind for Jewish people in the wake of the atrocities in Australia on Monday evening. Well, Kemi Beynock was in the House of Parliament. She lit the candle for the Conservative Friends of Israel event.

22:36On that note, Kevin, why did you do that ridiculous thing of likening the football shirt that happens to be black with a gold badge to the Nazi badge? You were trying to have fun, but it was an insult to righties. And there are very many of them out there. In fact, a lot of them are Telegraph readers and consumers of this podcast who can't decide at the moment between tourism reform. but my goodness, they would expect people from the Guardian or the left to accuse them if they're flirting with the idea of supporting Nigel Farage of being equated with the fascists and the far right and the Nazis but for you to do it, Kevin, you're talking about your own supporters.

23:14What were you thinking? I wasn't criticising any of the supporters of reform or Nigel Farage or anything else in terms of being a Nazi or something. It was simply a question of his judgement. Had he thought this one through? That's what it was all about and I had nothing to do with what to cause offence to anybody. But you know Fulham FC have an away shirt that's black and gold, right? I mean, come on. It was the bad news. Listen, it was... We don't get everything right on Twitter and if I upset anybody, I apologise for that. But can I just move on to the substantial point? No, but hang on, before you move on, this is what I think is frustrating to righties.

23:47You're pretending all the time that there is so much that divides you. There isn't, is there? You've got almost all of the same sorts of ideas OK, there's a few differences, the two-child benefit cap being one, but in general, you're on the right side of the argument, OK? You have the same feelings towards Labour. You have the same fears about the rise, for instance, of the Greens, to a lesser extent, your party. You're sharing a lot of supporters. Tim and I make a great many people at both conferences who appear to be members of both Reform and the Conservatives. OK, so... Yeah, or at least a member of one, but this election voting for the other.

24:25Are you confecting all of this opposition when deep down most righties really want you two to combine resources? We appreciate you can't do it before the election because why would anyone bother to vote for you? But they want this right wing pact to beat any kind of progressive coalition of chaos. And they want it to happen for the following reason. They want reform to keep the Tories honest and the Tories to keep reform honest. It would be the perfect scenario. And yet you're all running around pretending you're disagreeing about everything. You're not. And just to add to that, what adds to the confusion is that the Tories seem to be adopting a lot of reform-style policies.

25:02You've finally given up on the ECHR and Rob Jenrick's running around with his camera and all that sort of thing. While reform, you're taking all their ex-MPs. The reform party just looks like Boris Johnson 2.0. The reason people come into politics, whatever we say about each other at times, or whether the media may say about us, I'm not saying you say that, but we all come into politics to fix stuff. That's what we do. That's why we leave our homes and often take a salary cut and go to Westminster because you want to fix stuff for the good of the country. It's not about party, it's about country.

25:34So, of course, we can agree on some of the problems, but the solutions to those problems are different, and that's the point, is that we had it. Remember, for the last election, we had somebody who says, oh, we can fix everything in this country because we're not the Conservatives, or the Tories, as they would call them, because we're not Conservatives. But you need to actually present the actual solutions. Now, of course, let's look at small boats. You mentioned the ECHR. Tim, you mentioned the ECHR. You know we brought forward some legislation on small boats that we got vilified for in the last government.

26:06Deporting people to Rwanda, this was tough. It was inhumane by many people. And we passed that legislation. Despite all the pushback from Labour and Lib Dems and House of Laws and all that stuff, we passed that legislation. Now, OK, we decided not to do the ECHR. That was a decision that we took at the time to leave the ECHR. Other countries have controlled asylum-seeker numbers like Denmark while staying in the ECHR. It was a judgment call. So it's not like suddenly we've seen the light and, okay, we want to stop these small boats. We want to stop them in the first place because this is a systemic problem we know exists, and they didn't even exist until 2020, of course, small boats.

26:46So, yes, of course, we need to be pragmatic and we need to look at how we do this and we got Lord Wolfson to look at the illegal situation on the ECHR and see what the implications were and we decided we'll leave the ECHR. That's your judgement call but the key thing is which party can set out the detailed policy solutions to these big problems. Nigel Farage is very good at identifying problems. I don't think he's very good at presenting solutions. He changes his position on his solutions every single day. That really is nonsense. Let me answer your question, Camilla, because I think there's a really good answer why I left the Conservative Party and why I don't think we're the same.

27:25And I'm going to bring two expert witnesses into my answer, and that's Tim Farron and Daisy Cooper. Another Tim. We've got far too many Tims. The reason I mention it, there are two Liberal Democrats, one a former leader, one the current deputy leader of the Lib Dems. In conversations, which I think they would repeat sort of publicly, I have with them, is that they say, they meet with more Conservative MPs than I do, and they say if there was a sort of an outcome of the next general election where Conservative MPs could choose to go into alliance with reform or the Lib Dems, they think about a third of Conservative MPs would choose an alliance with the Lib Dems.

28:01A third would choose reform. And that's the fundamental problem. Kevin at the moment, we're in a debate about a Conservative debating reform and he's got his most Conservative head on. I don't know what Kevin would choose. If arithmetically he could choose an alliance with reform or the Lib Dems. But that's the problem, is that the Conservative Party doesn't really know who its natural allies are. Are its natural allies people like me or people like Tim Farron and Daisy Cooper? And it's that divide, partly because of the legacy of David Cameron. David Cameron choose a lot of parliamentary candidates because of their gender, because of their ethnicity, because of their sexuality, not necessarily because they were committed conservatives.

28:41that legacy lives on, the Conservative Party is still populated by a lot of people who I don't think are really Thatcherites, reform-friendly, or maybe even Kevin Hollander-akes. They are of a different order to the average reform person. Yes, but if Kemi Badenock has turned round and said, if you do not support my borders plan, and inherent in that is a support to leave the ECHR, then you can't stand as a Tory at the next general election, that would eradicate the sort of yellows in disguise, wouldn't it? Caroline Noakes, for instance, isn't going to support leaving the ECHR. So Sir Ed Davey has got somebody else to join his circus act.

29:15Well, I just wonder when the wheels hit the road. I'm using lots of car analogies today. When the wheels hit the road, whether, you know, once the Conservative Party is safely back in power, potentially, how many times did it promise to control immigration and didn't? I just don't fundamentally trust the Conservative Party now. I trust Kevin. I think I probably trust Kemi. I don't trust the Conservative Party as a parliamentary party to do what it is. Do you trust Robert Jenrick? Yes. Ah, you're trying to get him over, aren't you? Oh, I think Robert Jenrick would be a great member of reform. Kevin?

29:54I'd like Kevin to join as well, but I don't think that's particularly likely. It's the next Robert Jenrick video that's going to be filmed, going to be him in the middle of a tug of war between Nigel Farage and Kemi Bain. In his shorts. in his shorts with Mrs Jenrick looking on. Listen, I think... I mean, Tim challenged me in terms of am I a Lib Dem or am I... I have no Lib Dem. And Kevin Bednock has no Lib Dem. Who would you choose, if you could do that? Come on. If you could choose to go into government with reform or the Lib Dems, who would you choose? If that was my only choice to do that, of course I would choose reform.

30:34because... Oh, that's a good idea. Oh, I wouldn't say. Oh, my God. I mean, we're the only parties that believe in controlling our borders. I mean, I believe in that's what we've got to do. We're the only party, I think, that's interesting balance in the books. I think you've just committed news, by the way. So the Tory party is open to a coalition if necessary. No, that's not what I said at all. You said there was no other choice. But there's lots of different ways. You said I did not say that at all, but if there was no other choice. If there was no other choice, yeah. You are open to a coalition.

31:06We're not open to a coalition. That's not what we are at all. Right. But you want me to answer your question, I'll answer your question. The biggest issue we're facing in this country today is to make sure we can control migration. Yeah. That's why I don't think any other party other than the Conservatives would control migration in the right way. We've got the solutions to do it. But certainly Tim and I are far more closely aligned in terms of migration. That's the reality. And so, but KB is not somebody who's interested in a coalition. What we've got to do is make the case, present the solutions to the public in terms of how we will deliver those solutions to the problems.

31:42It's no good just identifying a problem. We saw this with reform in terms of how they campaigned in the May elections. We're going to improve services and cut council tax. Has that happened? Not at all. They claim they never said they would bring council tax down. Yes, I've got the leaf of six. To be fair, they did. It has only been a few months. Some councillors did in local... Thank you for that admission, Monty. While you're looking for the leaflet, I have to ask, Tim, you mentioned natural allies and you are a Christian. Well, your party has been endorsed by Bonnie Blue. A porn star who is at the centre of a degree of controversy because of her predilection for gangbangs.

32:20I don't regard her as philosophically a small-c conservative figure nor an upstanding citizen. Are you happy with your party being endorsed by her? Is she a natural ally of the Reform Party? Well, let me put it this way. She probably won't be a member of the Reform Christian Fellowship. Right. I watched a video where someone won a competition to have sex with her and the girlfriend of this man handed her boyfriend over to her and I thought... I was shocked by it. I just thought, where are we going as a society? Well, where is Reform going as a party? This was on Twitter. This was on Twitter, by the way, in case people are wondering.

32:57And your fellow Danny Kruger are welcoming this girl in with open arms. And Danny did not reject her support when asked about it. Danny would not approve of what Bonnie Blue represents. I think what he was saying, and I think, Kevin, you probably said something similar, you accept all voters, you don't judge them too much. I wouldn't say that, actually. One of the biggest issues, and this isn't about Bonnie Blue, I think that's a side issue. One thing that Tim must be concerned about, because you're a decent man who can't abide racism, and the same with Danny Kruger, but I am really worried that Richard Tice and Nigel Farage don't seem to want to criticise people who have been racist within your party.

33:37Oh, come on. No, no, no, no, that's not fair. Chris Parry has said that David Lammy should go back home. Who's Chris Parry? Chris Parry, sorry, he's the mayoral candidate for Hampshire and so on and so on. Now, what do you think some people will read into that statement? Kevin hits on the concern. So you've got to call that out. You've got to call that out. And two justices yesterday would not call that out. Kevin hits on a concern that the trouble with reform is that you might attract the nuttier end of conservatives. Yeah. Is that legitimate? Yeah, but one thing that I... Danny... I'm going to pray on...

34:13Not another Tim, but a Danny Finkelstein in for support here. Well, he loved David Cameron and all of the policies that you've just rejected. But what Danny said is, you know, take an example like Tommy Robinson. Nigel Farage has been very good at policing, I think, the right. There are unattractive elements in British politics who've been attracted to fraud. Nigel keeps expelling them. I don't know the specifics of the Chris Parry example, but if what you say on the face of it is true, he shouldn't be part of reform. I would absolutely say that. You don't say someone like David Lammy go home when he's been raised and brought up here.

34:48Just to finish the point, though, what Nigel Farage has done on the right, Jeremy Corbyn never did on the left, And I don't think Nigel Farage gets anywhere near enough respect for the way he polices these borders. Do we do it quickly and perfectly all the time? Probably not. But when we have clear examples of racist attitudes and behaviour, absolutely, those people have no place in reform. I think small C conservatives tend to be motivated less by ideology than by instinct. And the problem that many have right now is, well, one is that they actually feel torn between your two parties. And I think as we get closer to the next election, that divide is actually going to hurt.

35:25It's going to be personal and nasty. The second thing is a lot of conservatives instinctively look at what the Tories did when they were in government and think you did some things that just weren't very conservative. But they also look at reform and think voting for you is a gamble. And that's something conservatives don't like doing. We know the system needs to be changed. Well, except the ones that bet on the election. Right. Very funny. We know this country needs a change. Maybe it needs some outsiders and some radical thinking. But I don't like taking a risk, which is why I wonder if a lot of people will gravitate back to the devil they know.

36:01Well, can I just say, that's a very good analogy for what happened in 2024, isn't it? Well, just, we can't be any worse than we've got already. Let's go to somebody else and we get Keir Starmer. And what happens, it gets much, much worse because you are taking that gamble. Now, I'm not saying that we want to go back to the position we are, the government we had in 2024 because we had our issues, clearly. But leadership is the most important thing in any organisation, particularly a political party. So people need to choose a leader they absolutely believe will be able to enact the solutions to the problems they identify.

36:35And I believe Kemi's strategy around developing policy but crucially having the courage and the courage of her convictions that she'll put those things in place is certainly the least risky option. and I think the very positive option, looking for the future, and the other thing, she's very optimistic about the future, about this country, not oblivious to the many challenges we face, but somebody who can deliver solutions and take the country forward in an optimistic fashion rather than just constantly say the world's guilty of hell in a handcart and there's going to be some huge issues ahead that we can't avoid.

37:10Monty, deep down, don't you think that a Farage Badenock double act would be formidable on the right of politics? You've got a man accused of racism and all the rest of it by his left wing critics. It's a constant. I mean, let's not be around the bush here. Whatever we've heard so far, that is going to be ramped up and ramped up and ramped up by the left. He's going to have to have nerves of steel, Farage, for everything that's going to be thrown at him. that you, with your con home and your Christian fellowship hat on now, must look at that potential double act and say that could answer every righty's prayers.

37:48Look, that's for the British people to decide, Camilla. What do you think about that prospect? I'll answer you directly. But, look, there are parts of northern England, the Red War seats, parts of Wales, colliery communities, parts of Scotland, they're never going to vote Conservative. If before the election... They did in 2019. Yeah, but what happened? That's why they're not going to vote for you for a long time. Covid happened, Brexit happened, the Catholic living crisis happened. Lots of betrayal happened, I'm afraid, Kevin. They're not going to vote for the Conservatives. Reform can reach...

38:22You mentioned this point earlier, Camilla. Reform can reach parts of the electorate that the Conservatives just can't. There are probably southern seats reform cannot win that only the Conservatives can win. Let the British people decide, at a general election what the outcome is. And then do the mathematics afterwards. But my answer to your question fundamentally is if it ends up, I think Kemi Baden-Ott and Nigel Farage could form a strong coalition together where we agree on the key issues facing the country. Immigration is the biggest challenge facing this country. We are changing as a country and reform have the right policies on it.

38:56They've considered as a catching up. What we don't know is how bad the economy is going to be and that's going to be the big unknown. I've got to say, I think what you set out there is a disastrous approach because the two parties are going to cut each other's throats in a first-past-the-post system. That's a disastrous strategy. I mean, you talk about betrayal, Tim, and you're probably talking about tax increases. We put taxes up in that period. Immigration was the biggest betrayal. Yeah, and I agree. We got the rules wrong in terms of the points-based system. Badly, massively wrong over the whole time you were in office.

39:28We did many good things during that period of time, but we got some things fundamentally wrong. What we need to do now is make sure the people choose one party that's right of centre, that identifies the problems, has the right solutions and the courage of the convictions in delivering. I think the Conservative Party is that. I think Kemi Bairdnock is that leader. We shall judge the next time the country goes to the polls, which will be next May, where perhaps we'll have a little rematch. Thank you. I was saying I was thinking rebound, rebout. and then we will see if we can turn these two into a right-wing marriage made in heaven.

40:06That's it for today. Thank you for hosting us. Go and share a cherry brandy down in your arms, all right, and have a lovely Christmas. And that's it from you and me, Tim. It is. Enjoy those socks and we'll be back tomorrow, 5pm. Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas.

40:32Thank you.