Why Labour’s anti-misogyny classes are doomed to fail

0:02The Telegraph

0:09The Labour government's latest nanny state intervention. After offering to clean their teeth and feed them breakfast, we now have teachers charged with teaching boys about misogyny in schools. And whose responsibility is it to police toxic masculinity? Is it parents or is it teachers? Plus, what about toxic femininity? The likes of Bonnie Blue and so on. To what extent are they responsible too? And we're going to be discussing whether our Brussels-obsessed Prime Minister was right to spend half a billion quid sending students on the Erasmus scheme. Welcome to The Daily Tea with me, Camilla Tominey.

0:47And me, Rachel Johnson.

0:59Rachel Johnson, lovely to see you in The Daily Tea studio with me because we've not presented together. And this is a reunion of the best double act since you and I went on Celebrity Pointless. It was literally dumb and dumber, wasn't it? It was so bad. So just to explain, you and I were a partnership on Celebrity Pointless and we are the only contestant couple in history, in the history of that game show, to get two exes in round one. We stood there and we thought, we've got this. We're both quite intelligent women. And then what did the host say, Alexander Armstrong? He said one word. Flags.

1:36He said flags. And we went, oh, no. We both looked at each other and thought, well, I hope you know something about flags because I couldn't tell the difference between Netherlands and France. No, I couldn't either. We were also debating over Liechtenstein versus Luxembourg. And then every flag that was a bit mysterious, we said, is it the Vatican? Anyway. Can I just say, before people think that we are total morons, I've won some celebrity pointers too so I was going into it thinking I've got Camilla Tomini we're going to win this I'm going to get all this money for Parkinson's UK Yes because I've won it before in fact it's one of the very few things I've won and we were the first out We were the first out I brought some girlfriends with me and they were like oh went all the way to Wellstreet Studios and they were like we've literally been in the studio for five minutes and we've crashed out of round one having said that I don't even remember do you remember I was in a panic that day because there was some new development in Megxit and I had to hot foot it and I had the news editor phoning me going where are you and I'm like I'm on Celebrity Pointless and he was like would you mind getting to the office and writing some copy so in a way going out in the first round was a good thing do you know the one I want to do and I'm just sending a message out now to Stephen.

2:44Celebrity traitors. No I don't want to be famous enough for that I want to do and if Stephen Mulhern is listening and the producers I'm desperate to do Celebrity Catchphrase. I didn't I've never heard of it. What? Never heard of it. Say what you see No. Mr Chips. No. What? No. You've never seen Catchphrase? No. You must have seen Catchphrase. I am very highbrow, Camilla. Well, you pretend to be. I know, but I may not know my flags from my mags, but I, you know, I've never watched that sort of thing. Well, if anyone is listening from Celebrity Catchphrase, I am available for the next year. Right.

3:21Shall we get on to the serious matter? Jess Phillips is back on the airwaves being, being, I don't know about you, but I don't think anyone has done more for women and girls than Jess Phillips. Uh-huh. Would you like to show your workings on that assertion? I'm only joking. She's gone onto the airwaves, notwithstanding the fact that she's been heavily criticised for her involvement or lack thereof in the grooming gang inquiry. And survivors are so disappointed. They are. And I interviewed a couple of weeks ago, one of the survivors called Scarlett. Yes. who said on air that she had no faith in Jess Phillips and has since resigned from the victims' panel.

4:02And I don't think the victims' panel even exists now. There is low confidence in the stock of Jess Phillips at the moment. But nonetheless... Well, she's in Birmingham Yardley and it's difficult for her because she's on a very reduced majority and a large number of voters there are Muslim. And so it could be suggested that she is having to keep quite a few camps happy here. She's trying to reconcile her women's empowerment and champion hat with her, I need to keep people who might have more sympathy with the other side of this argument happy. And I think that's problematic for her. But the new endeavour now, and it follows on from adolescence and things, is this idea that boys should be taught about misogyny in schools.

4:49so Keir Starmer has said that we need to address the rise of misogyny and reduce sexual violence teachers will apparently be given specialist training so they can give lessons about consent the dangers of sharing intimate images and the need to challenge misogynistic behavior they'll also get guidance on how to identify boys at high risk of being influenced by the likes of Andrew Tate, who is, as you know, Rach, a online influencer and self-described misogynist who's under investigation in three countries, including for rape and trafficking. Just on this Tate thing, this is too little too late.

5:25Tate was big about five years ago with the Gen Zs. You know, my son and some of his friends were exploring these themes. I went to do a speech at a school and somebody referenced Andrew Tate and the girls in the class weren't happy about it. We all had to have a little bit of a debate about it afterwards. I asked my son who's 15 quite recently what he thought of Andrew Tate and he said he's a melt which I think means he's a moron. He's past it, he's become a parody of himself. Is there a possibility that your son was saying what he thought you wanted to hear Camilla though? I think my son is in a girl sandwich because I have a daughter, him and then a younger daughter.

6:04He knows that I do not entertain any notions in the house of him being sexist at all. If he comes out with stuff, if I'm not jumping down his throat, I mean, you know, the normal protestations about women's football or whatever, nothing toxic, you know, just general boyish talk. Let's get this all into perspective. I grew up with two older brothers, OK? I was on one hand the golden child, the apple of my father's eye, the youngest, and therefore apparently, according to the boys, spoiled. On the other hand, they controlled play. I was put in goal with a pair of my dad's gardening gloves. They would fire a very flat football at my face.

6:43I would say, can I have a go? And they'd go, girls, don't shoot, Mil. That was how I was brought up. We fought against it. Boys will be boys. I don't want to get into the situation. I don't know about you. You've got two sons, right? Well, I grew up with three brothers. Yes. As a sort of lone girl. rugby tackling you to the floor I know I played rugby and cricket and I climbed trees and I went off on my bike I mean I think that at the root of this endeavor as you call it of Jess Phillips which is only the latest attempt to try to control what's called the epidemic of violence against women and girls and statistics such as one in 12 women are reported to have been the the victim of some sort of misogyny or misogynistic assault I'm on slightly uncomfortable with it because as a parent myself as you are these are the really hard conversations to have with your your sons especially with your daughters you naturally you know talk to them about well you should periods and puberty and being safe yes but with boys I don't think you do in the same way.

7:56I mean, I remember trying to have a conversation with my sons about respect, but I really do feel that there's been a vacuum has arisen because parents don't like this conversation. They don't want to in any way toxify their own relationships with their children. They hope without any evidence that the schools are going to take care of this. Yes. The schools are incredibly pushed for time with the national curriculum anyway. And they don't want to squeeze in too much. They bang it all in PHSC. But in my view, what's happened is that this has fallen between two stools. Parents aren't doing it. Schools aren't doing it.

8:38And in the vacuum, at this time, we've seen the Internet occupy the space that's come, that has arisen. And nature abhors a vacuum. And the Internet is brilliant at filling that vacuum. And boys have been sucked into that vacuum. And that is what I think. And I think it's a bit like the government now saying you can't say globalise the Intifada or from the river to the sea. It's too late. It's too late. The genie is out of the bottle. You cannot put this toothpaste back into the tube unless you go in some way towards what Australia is doing with banning social media for the under 16s. Yes. But we will see kids getting around that with VPNs or whatever they're doing.

9:22You actually ban smartphones. You have a blanket ban until they're 16. You can never put this genie back in the bottle. And even very respectable, well-brought-up children who do have conversations, male and female, about sex and consent can go down some sick rabbit hole of strangulation porn at night on their phone alone in their room. You see, the other thing about this is the sort of isolationist nature of Gen Z and Alpha. Back in our day, to be sent to your room and be alone would be a punishment. But now it's like good ease, like yippee. And then they're at home with a computer that's sort of 700 times more powerful than anything we grew up with, and they can access anything.

10:08And then they get into sexual relationships with girls, and their expectations are way off. And I hear this, by the way, not just from young girls, but also from women our age who have got divorced and have gone on to Tinder and stuff. And some of the stuff that the blokes they're meeting up with want to do is mind blowing and mind boggling. So something shifted in the attitude towards women, particularly from a sexual perspective. You and I have always had a bugbear about Bonnie Blue, by the way. There's toxic femininity as well. But before we get on to that, I do think we have to acknowledge the impact of online pornography on all of these.

10:46And Gabby Burton, Baroness Burton, is trying to steer through an amendment in the Lords about choking and strangulation. Strangulation seems to be a thing now. Yes. Can it not be? When I was growing up, when you were growing up, parenting was very different. now parenting is all about safeguarding whilst giving your child the equivalent of a loaded gun right which is their smartphone their internet enabled smartphone yes so it's completely different you know when sorry just to speak a tiny bit about my feral childhood it's could not be further removed from what a childhood is now it was like go out don't come back before supper uh you know ride your bike, climb a tree, build a raft, go down the river on the raft in a race, set fire to things, make a fire, make a camp.

11:41And if you look bored and you've got nothing to do, well, I'll give you something to do, the parent would say. Also, just on this porn thing, again, having two older brothers, not that I want to land them in it, but I mean, of course, there were occasions where I might have found the odd magazine that appeared to have been smuggled in from somewhere. I think at some point one of my brothers had managed to obtain some German porn but it was there I mean by today's standards it was tame I remember a video of something being discovered putting it in the Betamax going oh my god what is this but I am saying I never found anything like that I don't think in comparison if you wanted to act I don't even know how as teenagers at that age growing up in the 1980s my brothers would have accessed what you would now class as extreme porn and yet for For our children, it's a click away.

12:27It's a click away. And they're conversely having much less sex than we did as teenagers and young adults. There's some stats on this. Hang on. So the access to online pornography has actually sated the appetite for in real life sex with real people. Would you believe that our generation is having more sex than the youngsters? The proportion of 18 to 24 year olds that are sexually active has declined. In October 2019, it peaked, pardon the pun, at 67%. But as of November this year, it stands at just 43%. Meanwhile, in the 50 to 64 group, around half report being sexually active. So your boomers are having more sex than your Zs and, well, I'll say Zs.

13:14I think alphas are too young for sex. Do you think this explains the appeal of the Lily Phillipses and the Bonnie Blues? Because if you've got a kind of generation of boys who are frightened or young men who are frightened of having sex because of the possible consequences of their approaches to girls and young women, when a Bonnie Blue or a Lily Phillips presents and just says, bang me, you know. Yes, gang bang. Gangbang. They must think, this is good. I've been given licence to do whatever I like. And therefore there's nothing between normal, consensual, organic heterosexual activity and a gangbang.

13:51I'll tell you what I think it is, to be perfectly honest. I think it's just an extension of the historic fascination with freak shows. So you have the freak shows of the Victorian era, women with beards, you know, three-legged people, people riding elephants and whatever, right? That is entertainment. And this is depressing. I'm making a depressing point here because we push the boundaries of common decency to such an extent that you can now go on X. I tried to investigate the body blue phenomenon with a view to a podcast. And the next thing I knew, I was being subjected with videos of body blue being shagged 50 ways to kingdom come.

14:29Basically what's happened is that was the freak show of that era. We then had this sort of freak show that is people going on Britain's Got Talent and stuff with no discernible talent at all and we sort of watch it and we mock it. These women have pushed the boundaries of common decency to such an extent that they think there's nothing wrong with having a thousand men queue up to have sex with them in a day. And because of the normalisation of porn in general and because of the, you know, over-sexualisation of literally every aspect of entertainment, if you think about what women wear on talent shows broadcast before the watershed now with what they were dressed as in the generation game generation.

15:09You know, the women are dressed with dresses slashed to the navel. It's like 6 o 'clock and you've got a 10-year-old watching. The whole world's gone mad. It's all about sex. There are breasts everywhere, as far as I can tell. And so actually, Bonnie Blue and Lily Phillips having gangbanks is just the next stage in the corruption of moral decency. Well, I don't think I totally agree with that. I think it's much more about money. I think it's about the way they recognise that OnlyFans is like a substack for sex. And the more followers they have, the more subscribers they have, the more clicks and views they have, the richer they get.

15:48The more they get amplified and even platformed by mainstream broadcasters. Like, I mean, you would have maybe had Bonnie Blue on here. We haven't had anyone on yet. Yes, Bonnie Blue. Bonnie Blue has done LBC. Yes. We had a lovely OnlyFans girl who confessed that she really hated doing it, but she was doing it for her children. For the money. For the money. For the children. So it's not about... I haven't actually, by the way, ever met a sex worker who says they enjoy what they're doing. And yet that's the narrative from Bonnie Blue. That is the bit that I find utterly reprehensible and shocking and should be, I think, she should be outlawed from society for saying that she enjoys being choked or spat on or any of the other practices that she invites.

16:39This is a flat-out lie for clicks and cash and puts other women in danger. And she is, behaviour such as Bonnie Blue and Lily Phillips and more to the point, statements like that encourage violence, sexual violence against women and girls. And I want that to be a focus of this whole endeavour, which I think, by the way, is probably doomed. Well, this is an interesting response from the opposition leader, Kemi Badenock, who is the only female leader of the main political parties in England. So she's in a slightly different position, isn't she, when she addresses any of these sorts of issues because she can speak from a female perspective.

17:23She has attacked the idea of misogyny classes and says, British boys aren't the problem. She goes on to say, they need to do the right thing, put police officers on the streets, stop people who come from cultures that don't respect women coming into our country. Foreign criminals removed as soon as they commit crimes. Those are the sort of things that would make a difference. What they've announced today is just a big mess, I'm afraid. She added, the fact is it's not 11-year-old boys in school who are perpetrating violence against women and girls. This is happening because some people in Labour watch adolescence and that's what they want to focus on.

17:57It's a complete distraction. Don't forget, she got monstered for not watching adolescence. Adolescence was one of the most overrated dramas I think I've ever seen in my life, by the way. That's an incredibly interesting and pretty out there response from Kemi Baden-Ock, because she's gone there. She's gone straight in to say, you are repeating the mistake of the reaction to adolescence. The problem we have in this country is not the bookish 11-year-old white boy in a two-parent nuclear family with a loving sister. The problem we have in this country is the cultural importation of misogyny and the female being the second gender, being oppressed, maybe having to wear a veil.

18:45we've seen only this week evidence that we're seeing this culture war raise its head and and the the rights of women being assaulted by none less than 25 female anthropologists in a british medical journey paper that's saying that female genital mutilation was not unacceptable yeah this is what kemi is railing against she has a point although this is quite interesting Government research has found 40 % of teenagers in relationships are a victim of relationship abuse, while 40 % of young men hold a positive view of Andrew Tate. So just to balance that up, I agree. At the moment, the main concern is actually the over-representation.

19:27We did it on the podcast, Tim and I, a few days ago of Afghan males in the sex crime statistics. Faraj claims that they're 22 times more likely to be convicted of a sexist or offence against women. And ITN fact-checked that and said it was three times as much. But we have got this problem with people who don't share our culture. But as we discussed at the beginning, we may also have a problem with a degree of manosferic behaviour by young, impressionable boys looking to figures like Tate as if they're role models. We have both. And thinking they can control women. Coercive control is a thing. Also, the phone being used as a weapon, particularly against women, you know where are you what are you doing why are you posting this why you who are you out with as is ever the case whenever there's an advance in any direction technological or otherwise it's usually the women that suffer you ever notice that well I think the the common theme that I think embraces both let's say white male in cell in cell type coercive controlling behavior at any age and the cultures of countries where there is, you know, Muslim majority who have arrived here and who replicate their traditions and mores, which are antipathetical to female equality.

20:45Okay, I think we have to accept that. The common theme there is a kind of innate DNA ingrained entitlement that the male should in some way be superior to the female, should control the female, should be the first sex, and the female should be the second sex. And I think a lot of the male anger, whether it's directed inwardly towards these incel, you know, websites, or outwardly towards actual violence, comes from that abiding belief that is in the Bible, that is in the Quran, that's in the Torah, that religion teaches that women should be subjugated, women should be submissive. And when women push back against that, they must be punished.

21:37But if you were wondering what exactly it is that the government can do to halt the tide of misogynistic behaviour on the part of our boys and young men, well, Jess Phillips was asked this today, and this is what she had to say. The Violence Against Women and Girls strategy will be published today. And so as well as the specific announcements around what we will be doing to prevent violence from happening in the first place amongst our young people, there will be a huge range of policies that are being announced to really tackle the issue of violence against women and girls, which the government has committed to halving within a decade.

22:19And so around the schools announcements that will be a part of that broader strategy, we will be both ensuring that good evidence based healthy relationship education is rolled out by the end of the parliament to every secondary state school in the country. but also this targeted approach. We will be working to create evidence-based specialist resources and interventions for teachers and parents and children themselves to refer themselves to if they are concerned about their behaviours but also if teachers spot signs of sexually harmful behaviours such as, for example, the sharing of intimate images.

23:08I've met with teachers who told me about violent pornography being watched in the school itself and various other things. And this is what teachers, parents and I have to say the victims of youth, young violence in this area have asked for. To be fair, if you're contracting out the brushing of teeth, making of breakfast in the morning, why not also contract out consent courses? I'm just going to throw one more thing into this debate, and that is transgender activism. Now, I only say that because we had an experience. Let's just say a female relative of mine ended up having a consent course taught at school by a transgender woman, i.e.

23:55a biological male. And that female relative made a complaint to the headmaster. this is ridiculous uh we as girls do not want to be taught a class on consent by a biological male who identifies as a woman could we just have a woman and what happened uh that person was asked not to come back but what the child or the or the tea the consent teacher it was deemed inappropriate for that particular educational setting but all i say because you were talking quite strongly about feminism you know the other thing that has happened is that the feminist position has been challenged by trans activists who are effectively men once again trying to subjugate women and there's an irony there you have these men who are identifying as women saying that they can be women just by saying that they're women that in turns denigrates what it is to be a woman and at the same time they're oppressing women because they're dressing up in balaclavas and marching academics like Kathleen Stock out of her university.

24:59I have to say, Camilla, that I agree with you on principle and I agree with the definition of a woman, which is being rolled out in some parts of our government and institutions and not in others, the NHS, for example. But I think a much more entrenched, deep-seated problem is the sense of male superiority that has not gone away, even though we've had three female prime ministers. And it explains, you know, why does a man hit a woman? Because they think they can. They think they're entitled. Because, yeah, this is an expression of the male anger towards the female sex for not submitting, really, essentially, not doing what the male wants, standing up to the male.

25:54And this affronts the male in a deep cellular level that the male doesn't really understand. And then the so-called red mist came down that the police used to explain away and say it was a domestic, you know, it was a marital and nothing to see here, and they closed the door. But underneath that act of violence was the dynamic between the sexes. and a lot of our problems that we're trying to talk about today, Jess Phillips, God bless her, comes from still emanate from that dynamic. And I think that, yes, you know, let's have a conversation about misogyny, but let's also acknowledge the roots of misogyny in the same way that, you know, yes, let's stop people shouting gas the Jews and all the rest of it and globalise the end of Fada.

26:41But let us also acknowledge the roots of that, those words. And that is anti-Semitism, which is the ancient hatred. So what we're essentially talking about here is kind of the same thing. The ancient hatreds and the ancient battle of the sexes. And both those things remain with us today. Yes. Those are two things, you know, and this is why you cannot put the genie back in the bottle. The genie is always out of the bottle when it comes to male violence and to anti-Semitism. So we could conclude this by maybe saying, although Jess Phillips hasn't expressed herself as clearly as she should have, maybe it's good that we're having this discussion.

27:21It is. Because if we do introduce these sorts of lessons to school, I appreciate what you're saying, and I'm all for personal and parental responsibility, but they're spending so much time on these phones. There is such a confusion about many of these issues. And as you say, it's historic. Frankly, any teaching about it is probably a good thing. Agree. Agree. Talking of teaching, Rachel, coming up next, we're going to be discussing, and actually the flag theme is relevant here, should we be paying millions to send students... Hundreds of millions. Hundreds of millions to send students on Erasmus schemes.

27:56You'll no doubt be in favour as an arch-remainer, and I shall make my case as the Brexiteer. I may surprise you, Camilla.

28:14Surprise, surprise, Rachel, that Keir Starmer, a man who spent four years under Jeremy Corbyn trying to reverse Brexit, has now moved us a step closer once again to Brussels by agreeing to sign back up to the Erasmus scheme. That's the student exchange scheme, which sees British students go to Europe and have a fun old time. And we pay their tuition and living expenses. Right. And then they come here. European students come here. By the way, European students come here in far greater numbers than British students who go there. I know. That is true. It's going to cost the UK£570 million in the 2027 to 28 academic year.

28:57However, the Prime Minister has refused to confirm what it might cost moving forward. And there's been suggestions that that number could double to£1.25 billion between 28 and 34. I'm just going to make the case against this abject nonsense. First of all, if you're going to study a language at university, you're offered the option of a year out anyway as part of your tuition. Point one. Anywhere. So it can be in the EU. Can I just say you're right because my niece is in Amsterdam for a year. Is she? From the University of Edinburgh. So I don't know why we need this scheme. Why do we have to pay for our students to go to Europe any more than have to pay for European students to come here?

29:41I don't understand this. The other truth of the lie of all this is, as ever, tall poppy syndrome Labour cabinet ministers are trying to sell this in as if it is in some way beneficial to those from lower socioeconomic groups. That's nonsense. there's been a number of studies to suggest that middle-class children are over-represented in the Erasmus stats. I'm not surprised. But they're over-represented in our Russell Group universities too. Yeah, but it's not a gap-ya thing. I get that. It's actually something a little bit different. It's a junior year abroad type thing, which is common in American universities as well.

30:18But it's just an elongated piss-up, isn't it? Basically, it's a year... And this is the other thing that makes me deeply suspicious, although presumably this is music to Keir Starmer's ears. The Erasmus Plus programme's four priorities include, wait for it, environment and fight against climate change, NACH, inclusion and diversity, of course, hang on, participation in democratic life, which they define as including understanding of shared EU values and programmes that, quote, develop a stronger sense of belonging to the European community. I'm going to send you on an Erasmus year abroad, Camilla.

30:57It'll be really good for you. This is speaking your father Stanley's language rather than your brother Boris's. This is basically a way of indoctrinating British students into the EU way and the estimated cost of a UK student abroad... Per child, per student. £20 ,000 per student to do this. That's ludicrous. Why are we funding this when we've got massive problems with the UK finances. They've just cut the funding of maths and classics. They're not building any more free schools and we're doing this nonsense. Yes. Now, look, I completely agree with you on two things. All the stuff, all the guff about the EU and inclusion and democratic ideals and Monet and Schumann and all that, just leave that aside.

31:47That's just window dressing. The money matters. There's no question about it. and to me it's completely daft. I don't understand why Kirstama has been suckered into paying this. Because he's sucking up. He just cannot do a decent deal. It's like, it's Philippe Sands. It's the man who organised the Chagos Islands involved in this deal in some way. So listen, if I was, it makes me so cross that people make things so complicated and expensive. There are several really good websites where you can put your house on for a house swap. Look at this as a house swap. If someone from the Netherlands, Amsterdam, wants to come and swap with my niece who's in Edinburgh, do that.

32:28It's free. The University of Edinburgh will pay for their expenses and the University of Amsterdam will pay for hers. Do it on a case-by-case basis. Do not involve the taxpayer at all in this. Also, if you're interested in being fluent in a foreign language, you would have done it at GCSE and A-level. and then no doubt you would have done a language university course if you go in that direction. Therefore, you're going to speak the language because of your year out there anyway. Are we really suggesting that people are doing Erasmus in Paris to come back fluently speaking French? The other thing is, why are the European students...

33:05Well, they are. Maybe. Hang on. If the European students are arguing they're coming to Britain because they want to learn English, what nonsense? European students at the age of about 12 speak English, sometimes better than our own children. OK, so they don't need to come to UK universities to learn English. They already learn it. Why also the European obsession? What's your objection to students coming to our universities? Because we're having to pay for the privilege. Yes, but it is soft power too. The university sector is one of the greatest exponents of British soft power. You made a good point about the bad deals that the Prime Minister makes.

33:40It's going to be subsidising European students with UK taxpayer money. because far more students come to us than we go there. Why is that? Because we have the superior universities, one could argue. If you talk to my brother Joseph, who was a universities minister about this, and I wish I had actually spoken to him before having this conversation, but I remember him saying, the money you get back from hosting and educating foreign students, American students, undergraduates in our system, pays itself over and over again. They feel gratitude. They come back. They endow scholarships. They spread the word.

34:24He is completely messianic about it. Yeah. He was an arch-remaid too, though, wasn't he? Yes, he was. He's drunk the Brussels Kool-Aid, which, by the way, is quite expensive. I know you did. Look, you're steeped in Brussels history. We have a scheme. It's called the Turing Scheme. And you can travel around the world with that. But you're kind of advancing the price of everything, value of nothing argument on this and in the long run I would say that the Erasmus scheme is probably worth it but not the deal that Keir Starmer has managed to to broker this time around the Turing scheme was why didn't we stick with the Turing scheme was it just because it was introduced by Boris Johnson it had to be ditched along with the Rwanda scheme which is actually a perfectly good third country alternative yes to unbridled illegal immigration maybe i've mentioned two of my brothers i know already well you come from an illustrious family i've mentioned my brothers and nobody's ever heard of them so i think we're all brothered out it's interesting that we are both the sum total of our brothers in terms of our own personalities and eagerness well i mean we've had to make our voices heard in a sea of masculine alphaness do you think that That explains why you and I are sitting here at the Daily Tea.

35:42Possibly. Rather than maybe someone else. Yeah, rather than any of your brothers or either of my brothers. Hey, suck that, you two. You might have put me in gold, but you can't keep a good woman down. We've had to fight, as Penny Mordaunt would say, to make our voices heard. Fight. Fight. Can I just conclude on this thought? No more flags. If you and I had done Erasmus, we might not have crashed out of Celebrity Pointless. so can we conclude that whatever happens you and i go on some kind of flag refresher it doesn't need to be run by the eu because we want it to be reasonably priced rather than completely extortionate so you and i at some point in fact my son will do it this is a nice non-toxic thing instead of being on awful porn sites or listening to andrew tate i shall get my son, who as an aficionado of the computer game FIFA, is a flag expert.

36:34All right. He can give us a crash course in flags. All right. Tim will be back tomorrow with a special episode of The Daily Tea, 5pm.