Why pro-Gaza MP Ayoub Khan refused ‘anti-Semitism training’ after Oct 7 comments

0:02The Telegraph.

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0:45What happens when a telegraph journalist on the right, me, sits down with independent MP Ayub Khan? We have a debate about Gaza, Islamophobia, and whether I'm a closet conservative. Welcome to The Daily Tea with me, Tim Stanley. And me, Ayub Khan.

1:12I'm joined today by Ayub Khan, who is the independent MP for Perry Bar since 2024. Previously a Lip Dem councillor, in fact, but now aligned with your party. Is that fair to say? It is fair to say. Okay. I've also long admired how well-dressed the Gaza independents are. And you're here today in a three-piece suit. I am. In this weather. And it's because as a member of the bar, we have to be very disciplined. And throughout my 20-odd years of practicing, unfortunately, you have to wear this sort of attire. So I'm used to it. What do you think about Andy Burnham's T-shirt? Well, I think he's a bit of a Jack the Lad in that T-shirt, isn't he?

1:58Uh-huh. Okay, but I always thought the more left-wing you went, the more informal the dress code, but you're demonstrating the opposite. Opposite, yeah. Surprise, surprise. Let's start by examining, what are your politics? How would you describe your philosophy? So my foundation is simply justice, fairness and equality. and that's my bedrock of being involved in politics. When I first came into the political activism in 2003, it was on the back of the Iraq war and I felt passionate having just graduated that there was an injustice and I participated in local elections and I was duly elected. I didn't expect to win, but I was and I thought to myself, and what do I do with this title?

2:47And I did what I do best and let's just help the local residents with everything and anything. Why have you never been in Labour? Well, I grew up in a very deprived inner city area and it was a very strong Labour seat. The only time I was really interested in the political arena was when the war in Iraq took place and the only political party that was run under Charles Kennedy, which was making noise about this injustice was the Liberal Democrats. And that's why I joined the Lib Dem Party. And I was with the party for about two decades. Right. Why are you no longer with the party? So I resigned from the Lib Dem Party just before the general election.

3:35In fact, sorry, at the general election, I was campaigning for about a week with the Lib Dems. I was the official parliamentary candidate. I had a visit from a senior member of the Lib Dem Party, which put out a set of conditions which I simply wasn't happy with. And so I resigned from the political party. Right. What were those conditions? Well, I mean, there's no secret. One of the conditions was the social media posts would have to be verified by a number of different departments. They wanted me to undertake an anti-Semitism training course. Primarily, those were the two conditions, but I wasn't happy.

4:19I said to the chairperson, I believe it was the chairperson of the National Party, that why would I undertake any anti-Semitism training course? Why would I need to have my videos vetted, if you like, if the allegation of anti-Semitism was dismissed by an impartial, independent group of individuals, including a retired judge, a doctor, and a layperson. Well, let's explain why this might have come up, which is, I believe this is in relation to some videos you made following the October the 7th attacks. And there were two elements of it which caused great controversy. One was you challenged some of the accounts of the atrocities, and you used this language of a big lie might have been told.

5:07What did you mean by that? So there was a lot of conflation and a lot of misrepresentations. I simply put out videos questioning some of the accounts which were reported by first responders. You remember a classic one because it was actually repeated by a senator where a first responder had gone into a house allegedly and said that he witnessed an horrific scene where a family of four were massacred, two children and parents. And he described some very horrific injuries. But he went on to say that whilst this massacre took place, the food on their dinner table was being eaten by these savages who did this horrific act.

6:09And my question was, there was no survivors, there was no CCTV footage, so how could the first responder have made such a statement? It was a question. And it later transpires that, in fact, that account was false. So being undermined for simply questioning, I think, was wholly disingenuous. Are we not allowed to question? No, of course you are. Absolutely. And in war, the first victim of war is the truth. Yeah. And there are often horror stories which turn out to be completely false told by both sides. I guess the context, though, to you making those videos is your wider commitment to the Palestinian people.

6:58And the other thing I was going to put to you was that there was concern about you showing support for the phrase, from the river to the sea. I still support that phrase. Right. I don't think there is anything anti-Semitic about that. The intention is quite clear. People should be free. Liberty does not come at a cost. I know that certain individuals would like to present that as anti-Semitic, but I don't believe it is. Well, you say it would come at a cost. Now, what people would say is it comes at the cost of the existence of the State of Israel, because for Palestine to be free from the river to the sea, the very clear implication is that whole area will be freed of Israeli presence.

7:44But we've had Benjamin Netanyahu repeat the same. Nobody's ever questioned that. He stood up in the United Nations forum with a map claiming that the whole region would be free. Why has nobody? I mean, I'm just trying to be fair and just in my analysis. Why has nobody ever queued that? Why has nobody even criticized that? That's a touch of water battery, though, isn't it? Because the issue people were concerned about with you is the suggestion that for the Palestinian people to enjoy their full civil rights, the state of Israel itself must go. Is that something you think? Right. Well, I think, once again, that's a spin which people want to draw on any debate.

8:28My position has always been very clear. When I say from the river to the sea, Palestine should be free, I'm saying that the people of Palestine should be free without the eradication of any others. I don't believe that would be just and fair. As I said, my bedrock of my politics is about justice. And I don't think that would be just. So that's a two-state solution in which there is both a Palestinian state and an Israeli state. That's going to be a matter for the people of that region to decide. I don't think I'm in a position to dictate what people should do, whether people want to have a single state where everybody has the right to vote or whether it's two states.

9:07Yeah. It's a matter for the people in the region. Yeah. But I get that the thing is, though, it's a politics of implication and inference and people infer from it. And there are many voters who will have voted for you inferring from it that you oppose the existence of Israel. And have you do you feel your satisfaction that you have said to them, I do not? Well, look, I've made my position throughout my political activism quite clear. People should not be oppressed. there is when we look at what took place in South Africa when you look at the racism the apartheid at this present moment a genocide with more than 70 ,000 people killed, more than 20 ,000 children 170 ,000 maimed, disabled you know I look at that and I'm shocked and so I suspect most people that voted for me just want peace.

10:06And they want people to speak truth to power. We don't get that in politics. And we recently had a debate in parliament, in Westminster, about the Israeli influence over British politicians and whether that should be investigated. And the debate, when we had more than 100 ,000 petitioners that signed that, clearly people out there feel there's a concern that needs to be addressed. And yet we had politicians come into that chamber and cry anti-Semitism before the debate even started. And so there is legitimate concern out there as to why people speak in the way they do. What is influencing those individuals to speak in the manner that they do?

10:57And why do they not speak the truth? I mean, let's take West treating as a classic example in his tweets or text messages or WhatsApp messages He makes it plain that war crimes are taking place. Yeah, but as a minister He was shying away from that. Yeah, yeah, and and so do you think to yourself? You know the wider public out there are not blind to what's taking place But why are politicians acting the way they are and you see you see aside from the fact that some people would challenge you on the numbers of the people who have been killed in Gaza. And I don't want to get into that in part because I just don't have the ability to respond to it.

11:38No one really does because it's a mystery to some extent of what's happening there. I'm not too sure it is. I think even the IDF have confirmed those numbers along with the figures presented by Hamas. So it's not controversial. Okay. But do you see the point that some of what you've just said, some Jews feel, repeats classic anti-Semitic tropes. One, that there is a genocidal desire to wipe out all Muslims in the region. And two, that Jews have a disproportionate influence. I didn't say Muslims, Palestinians. Okay, Palestinians. And two, that there is a disproportionate Jewish influence in British politics.

12:14Well, here you are, you see. And you see the word conflate. It's very easily used to stop a discussion. I've never mentioned the word Jew. You have. Well, because Israel is a Jewish state. That's the point of it. That's the point of it. And it's why what's happening is happening. Not all Israelis are Jews, are they? No, that's true. And so we must be very careful with our words. I'm happy you acknowledge that. Because ultimately, I think there needs to be a debate. It needs to be open and frank. But you can't have an open and frank debate about anything if the first thing that's spoken about is anti-Semitism, to shut down the debate.

12:54And that's exactly what happened in that Westminster Hall debate. That's exactly what happened with the Maccabi-Tel Aviv football match in Birmingham and the fan base. It was weaponized. And we need to be very careful. I don't think that's fair because the debates have happened. It's just that people have taken part in that debate and said, I hear what you're saying and I think it's anti-Semitic. That's not cancelling or shutting down. That's someone robustly responding to your challenge. Fancy, fancy parliamentarians which advocate and want democracy and part of that democracy. They are allowing the public to sign up to petitions when you pass the threshold.

13:32They are happy to have that debate. And that petition was simply asking for an investigation and to review matters and then to call that out anti-Semitic. That's disingenuous. But the left tends to do this too with any discussion around immigration, with any discussion about how easy or difficult it is to integrate aspects of Islamic culture into British society. The left are the first people to say that's Islamophobic. Isn't this just what happens in debates? Well, you see, it depends what's actually being said. I don't think when you talk about, for example, integration, and we had the classic scenario where Robert Generic visited my constituency breaching convention.

14:19By not telling you that he was in my constituency. Clearly, he feels that there's some laws which apply to him, but different laws apply to other people. But that's a topic for another day. when you have an individual like that coming to your constituency and in private quarters talk about not seeing white faces and then say, well, there's a lack of integration, you can understand why people would find that quite disturbing. Yes, I can. Yes, because that sounds to me like a statement about race. But when one's talking about in the same way that one ought to be able to criticize Israeli foreign policy without automatically being labeled anti-Semite, one might be able, should be free to criticize elements of Islamic culture which create tension within Britain without being accused of Islamophobia.

15:12Well, I have no issue with any individual criticizing any faith. I think there's, you know, debates to be had, misinformation to be corrected. In an open society, that's, you know, the way you would want things. but I feel that sometimes there is a different agenda at play and I'm not saying that Robert Jenner is a racist for example although his comments were deeply harmful to the local communities and certainly had you know undertones of racism but I think that what we are seeing in politics today is winning votes and where is the larger vote base which community is expendable when it comes to picking up issues who can we chuck the dirt at and we see a lot of that but coming back to my original point about conflation I think you know we can have an open honest debate but we mustn't shut that debate down by saying you know this is about Jews, it's not.

16:24It was never about Jews with the Maccabi match, for example, and yet that whole debate was weaponized around that. We have Tottenham Hotspurs who have a large Jewish football base, and I kid you not, they're coming to Birmingham, they're coming to Aston and, you know, it's brilliant. So let's not deal with it in a way that points to a particular faith, because I think that we certainly end up doing more harm. But Jews feel it is about Jews. Well, you see, once again... Jews perceive these constant attacks upon Israel and attempts to suggest that Israel controls politics, they see it as anti-Semitism.

17:00And, you know, that's a very broad statement that you make. When we see, for example, in these protests, many members of the Jewish community protesting when we... That's true. Zach Polanski. Yeah. Well, and so I think, you know, once again, it's a way of shutting down a debate. You know, Jews think this. And it's almost like a survey has been done. and someone's got the figures and said, well, this is what the Jewish community feel about a particular issue. I mean, I think, you know, as you say, there are politicians criticising the state of Israel. Politicians in Israel is something that we should do without fear or favour.

17:40You said something very interesting there. It's about chasing the votes. But I'm just going to be blunt and put it to you that the accusation made against the Gaza independents is that's exactly what you do. What you really represent is a politely put, an anti-Israel vote, but in reality, a sectarian vote for local Muslims. And I remember the words of Kimmy Badenoch when she said that, and I thought to myself, what a disgusting statement to make without having come into my constituency of Birmingham Perry Bar, without speaking to the diverse community in my constituency, without reflecting on my 20 years of hard work, night and day, for the local community of all backgrounds, all faiths, and none.

18:22You know, what a disgusting comment to make to say that this was somehow sectarian. I campaigned if anybody did a cursory check on my TikTok videos, you'd see a diverse community supporting me for a whole variety of reasons. And yet, it's easy to just undermine the credibility of someone who served a very diverse community for past 20 years and say that's sectarian. Yes. But no Gaza independents were elected. There's also a presumption in what you say and what they say, oh, they appeal to one section of the community. And yet, when I was canvassing, people of all backgrounds were saying what they were witnessing on social media, on television was horrific.

19:04And they wanted to support me because they knew that I was a person who would not fear or favor a particular scenario. But there were no Gaza independents elected in Tunbridge Wells or Maker Field. They do tend to be elected in areas which which are disproportionately Muslim. Well, that may be the case, but are Muslims not allowed to exercise their discretion? Of course they can. What's that got to do with faith? At the end of the day, people in democracy, I mean, we have true democracy. I believe being elected as an independent is the purest form of democracy, where you are accountable to the people that put you in power.

19:43You're not a slave to a political party. You're not a slave to the higher echelons. You don't have to be frightened when you get up in that chamber. And you can speak on half of your constituents without fear or favor. And so, as I say, my campaign, please, Tim, come to my constituents. I'll take you around to the very diverse community that is supporting you. But I suspect you'd show some disfavor to pro-Israeli constituents, for instance. I mean, you don't represent everyone in that seat. Well, look, I mean... One has to make a choice. Well, here's the thing. the state of Israel has done itself no favors.

20:18You'd get pro-Israelis saying that. They're saying, well, what Netanyahu and his right-wing team on his cabinet? I hope people would also say Hamas has done itself no favors by attacking and killing thousands of innocent people. We can all criticize, and we should, the loss of innocent life, whether that's committed by Hamas, whether that's committed by the IDF. But the recent report where the United Nations inquiry revealed that one of the modus operandi was to wipe out and intentionally kill children. Do you not find that shocking that an inquiry finds that the IDF were on a mission to wipe out a future generation as part of this genocide?

21:05Again, I'm not going to respond to something that I don't know the details of. I'm not going to do that. But what I will say is I'm not the only person who's concerned about the possibility of sectarian politics. Across Europe, it is a worry. And even social democratic governments like in Denmark are trying to adopt policies that compel integration. But the conservatives can reach out to certain sections of the community. We had a famous rabbi once say that the Jewish community shouldn't be supporting, was it the conservatives of the Labour Party? I can't remember. Right. But nobody ever said that's sectarian.

21:40I want to ask your opinion on the suggestion. Just so I'm clear. And yet when I campaign across diverse communities, it's all of a sudden sectarian and it's a concern. I find that quite surprising.

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23:31Okay, I'd like to know your opinion of the proposal in Denmark to actually ban the call to prayer. And what's striking is that it was framed in such an open way. I mean, the minister who's suggesting it said that it felt as if some parts of Denmark sounded like a suburb of Islamabad. What do you think about that? Well, I think, you know, we've got a great tradition in this country where we talk about British values. part of British values is respecting different faiths, having tolerance. And we see a lot of scaremongering. We see a lot of social media hype, which has driven societies and communities living in our society at each other.

24:21and the problem you get is something very small can be multiplied, amplified in a way to undermine a community. I mean, that's what's happening here, the Muslims. I mean, when we look at, for example, the five stabbings which took place in Amsterdam and you think to yourself, well, was there any degree of parity when you look at the Labour government? Did Keir Starmer hold a COBRA meeting? Were there any ministerial statements? Was there any urgent questions? Why not? Where is the tolerance? Where is the mutual respect? And so I think in society we see actors which are sabotaging the politics and anything which they can amplify to undermine a particular community seems to capture votes in certain sections of our society.

25:19But they do. I think what's interesting is the discourse implies there's something particular about Islam which poses problems for integration. It's not generally about whipping up discontent or sending people against each other. There is a particular issue with this faith. When you had, for instance, the mass prayer that took place in Trafalgar Square recently, Nick Timothy described it as an attempted act of domination. And as I say, there is now talk about banning the call to prayer. Why do you think there is such disquiet about Islam? Well, they're playing to their voters, aren't they? Reform are leading the polls.

25:55Tories are almost wiping themselves out. And so who can spin the biggest narrative to attack Muslims? Because as I say, the Muslim community and I feel that we're expendable. And so you can blame a particular community for all its problems. and somehow think that that will be a solution. I think it's power-driven. I think people want just power, and they want to be able to get to the top of that ladder. And one of the ways of doing it is to undermine a particular community, and in this case, unfortunately, it's the Muslim community. But there's an element of power politics as well within public expressions of the Islamic faith.

26:33And if you take the call to prayer, it expressly says there is no God but Allah. What does Allah mean? Well, no, this is the thing. No, there is a discussion to be had about as people of the book, I'm Catholic, you're Muslim, we could argue that we're talking about the same God in that instance. But it would be offensive, an offensive claim to a Hindu, an offensive claim to a Buddhist. It is a claim over the public sphere. That I think is what people look at and feel uncomfortable about, is this sense that Islam makes a demand upon us that other faiths don't in the Western tradition. I think everybody was trying to work out a way of trying to justify what was said.

27:13You had individuals talk about women being separated from men. Well, they can criticize one faith, but they dare not criticize another faith, which also has segregation. And I think when you have that level of disparity, it shows truly what your politics is all about. You know, my own personal view is that, you know, the prayer and the call for prayer is something that hasn't just happened on this one occasion. It's something that happens and has happened up and down this country, never been raised before as an issue. You know, the Trafalgar Square is a place which shows the diversity in society with all communities celebrating different festivals.

28:04and to pick out the Muslim community, I think, as I say, is trying to spin a narrative for your own political game. Okay, what would be your view on the cousin marriage ban? I mean, I'm quite indifferent. I mean, generally what I do with voting and divisions is I ask my chief of staff what correspondence we've had in terms of our emails. if we've got an opportunity we conduct a survey if I look at my text messages my whatsapp messages and get a feel for where the majority of my constituents want me to be and I take heed from what they want but I'm genuinely indifferent I'm surprised by that because I'm going to admit my own prejudice and I would have assumed that you would have been directed by religious conviction on the on these issues I mean for instance would you apply that test to assisted dying for instance how did you think through how you're going to vote about that well I voted against it because my constituents were against it.

29:05Right. You know, in terms of the proportionality. Sometimes it's difficult to keep your personal feelings out of politics.

29:15And, yeah, as I say, insofar as cousin marriages, you say religion, I don't think Islam says that cousin marriages is obligatory or something. You know, it's more culture than religious. Right. Okay. And to some extent, the issues we're touching upon are issues of South Asian culture rather than necessarily religious instructions through Islam, which is something that I think people often don't appreciate. I'm intrigued. I mean, I have to ask, are you a practicing Muslim? Yes. You are? Okay. Because it sets me up for my next question, which is, so you find yourself in your party in an alliance with a lot of people who are very secular.

29:58and indeed would have some views that I suspect are at odds with traditional Islamic teaching. How do you find that? I mean, we kicked off your party because there was a need for it. There was a vacuum. We've all seen what transpired on social media, mainstream media, the difficulties that we've had. So, you know, as I say, I'm open to discussions. I think, you know, having debate around issues is healthy. It doesn't mean that you necessarily will have to agree with a particular point of view. No. But there's no reason why you shouldn't debate it. And there's no reason why you can't go with the majority.

30:44Do you think you can find accommodation with majority on an issue such as transgenderism? I mean, well, look, I mean, you know, that's been a very hot topic. And as a man of law, I suppose, you know, you can't sort of dissect your principles. As I started off this program, I said, you know, justice, fairness, equality. You go with what the law of the land is. The Supreme Court ruling is something that I take heed to. And so my position in relation to, you know, you've got my own personal view, my own religious personal view, which people are entitled to have. and then you have a debate and you see what the outcome of that debate is.

31:26Now, I've not involved myself in any great detail. As you know, we don't have much support mechanisms as an independent. So I serve my constituents and constituents, which is more than a full-time job. So I haven't really been able to have any real debate around the topic. Okay. I once asked Jeremy Corbyn why he didn't form an alliance with George Galloway. And Jeremy said, I think George thinks I'm woke. Is that a tension within the left alliance? To be frank, as I say, I tend to stay away from that. I'm just keen on delivering and doing what I do best. And that's just addressing casework and constituency matters where people are living with a serious cost of living crisis, with all sorts of challenges.

32:18And so I don't, you know, there's a perception that a politician must align him or herself to a particular form of politics. My politics has been very different. And, you know, as I say, for 20 years, I didn't know about every single political policy of the Liberal Democrats. Yes. What I did best was help residents. Okay. Okay, I want to finish with some sort of fast questions. Simple, straightforward yes or no's. And this is partly just because... It's always very difficult. Asking a lawyer to give you a simple yes or no. Well, no, I know. I have to say you've done very well so far. I'm asking these questions in part because I just want people to come away from this with a better understanding of what the independent bloc and people in it, they tend to think.

33:02I know you're going to say we don't all think the same. I mean, yeah, this is the point. Right, okay. As independents, you know, it's like in Birmingham, there were quite a large number of independents that were on as local councillors. And there's a perception, isn't there, that they must align themselves with my form of politics. Yes. And the truth is that nothing further could be the truth. Yes. They have their view of what might an independent do, and I have mine. So I can't talk for other independents at all. Well, let me ask you this. This is speaking for yourself. All right. Monarchy or republic?

33:38Monarchy. You like the monarchy? Yeah. That's good to hear. Well, I mean, I met the Queen when I was reading at the bar at Cumberland Lodge. Uh-huh. And she came over and back, I can't remember what year it was, we weren't allowed to have photographs and couldn't take a camera with you. Yes. But we had a very short conversation, but it was a very pleasant conversation. Okay. And I support the monarchy. Okay, that's fantastic. Church of England, keep it or scrap it? I mean, disestablish. I haven't thought about that. You haven't thought? Okay, fine. I generally haven't thought about that. All right, okay.

34:15I know there may be fours and against, but I haven't thought about that. Outside of Birmingham, do you prefer London or Manchester? Birmingham.

34:27NHS, public or private? Oh, definitely public. Taxes, up or down? Taxes, down. Taxes, you want them down. Good. Okay, right. State of the economy, how is small business doing in your constituency? struggling um i i think that we um need to do far more to help small businesses they are the very building block of communities you know employing local resident community residents and so forth so i i i'm all for small businesses do you think as short as possible do you think andy burnham's going to change the political dial in this country hard hard to see because he's working under a certain set of fiscal parameters he hasn't shifted from that position has he and so i think it'll be interesting to see what he feels is the right place to make a cut because in order to provide something you have to cut somewhere else and so it'll be interesting to see what he comes up with and do you think in this country we'll ever see a reform government?

35:31No. No? Interesting. Okay. I mean, Makerfield was a very good indication. I think what you saw in Makerfield was a community that supported unity as opposed to division. And I think people out there, as I said, can see rubbish right beneath my nose. Nayib Khan, I think you're a closet conservative.

35:56I think there are one or two issues that there might be some profound disagreement on but I think there's some conservatism in there that needs to be interrogated Avcom, thank you very much for coming on The Daily Tea Thank you for having me And Camilla and I will be back on The Daily Tea tomorrow at 5pm

36:38We'll see you next time.

36:53own words in their own voice. It doesn't interrupt the experience. It's part of it. With Acast, you can access the world's largest podcast marketplace. Choose the right shows, the right audiences, the right format. Then watch the data tell you it worked. You're not buying impressions. You're buying influence. Learn more by visiting acast.com slash advertise.