Why Starmer won't rule out a wealth tax

0:02The Telegraph.

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1:54Taggart about wealth taxes. Where have they been tried and why don't they work?

1:59Gordon Rayner: Plus, we're going to see if some nice soothing music with some noise of aircraft engines mixed in can cure Tim's fear of flying, because that's what Heathrow Airport have just started to do. Welcome to The Daily Tea with me, Tim Stanley. And me, Gordon Rayner.

2:26Gordon Rayner: Tim, you've just got back from Parliament where you were having your regular Wednesday therapy session, watching Prime Minister's Questions. Did anything exciting happen? No one cried. It's like, instead of no one died in 1983, no one died, this week no one cried. All eyes were on Rachel Reeves. I feel very sorry for her. For the rest of her life, she has to go around pretending she's having a great time. I can see her sort of accidentally cutting herself and having to laugh hysterically to pretend that she's not approaching tears. Is it really only a week since that happened? It is only a week.

3:03No, I know. I know. But it changed everything. It's like 9-11 Titanic all rolled into one. But there were two very interesting incidents. One was a question about Covid corruption, which felt targeted at James McMurdoch. Murdoch. This is the Reform MP who has now left reform while he is voluntarily, while he's being investigated for alleged discrepancies, etc, etc. In light of recent events, could the Prime Minister update the House on the work of the COVID corruption commissioner? And does he agree with my constituents in Rugby, Bulkington and the surrounding villages that there should be no place in public life for people who exploited the pandemic and defrauded the taxpayer to line their own pockets.

3:55Now, after that question had been asked, the PM said... My honourable friend makes a powerful point, and I hope it was heard on the benches opposite. It's an absolute scandal that failed PPA contracts were handed out by the Conservatives at taxpayer funds of£1.4 billion. We're focused on getting our money back. I can confirm the commissioner is now investigating fraud involving bounce-back and business support loans, and we will continue to go after the fraudsters, the drifters and the con artists, no matter who they are or where we find them. And then Lindsay Hoyle, the speaker, I think rather cheekily, invited Nigel Farage to stand up.

4:34Nigel Farage! Thank you. Thank you, Mr Speaker.

4:43And the House just burst into laughter. The main reason this country wisely voted for Brexit back in 2016, and that included millions of Labour supporters, is because we wanted to take back control of our borders. And Farage tried to ask his question, which was about asylum seekers, but was barracked by Remainers. which led Lee Anderson to say this.

5:21That's Lee Anderson, I think, speaking for the nation. Would you just shut up? A typically blunt Lee Anderson, I think it's fair to say.

5:29Gordon Rayner: Future speaker, Lee Anderson. Oh, yes. PMQs could be over very quickly. It could. If he became Speaker, it could. Five-minute job, wasn't it? So there was good fun making Nigel feel awkward, etc., etc., and reminding us that reform has its own one-in, one-out policy at the moment. But the most substantive discussion, of course, was Kemi Badenock versus Keir Starmer. And I think she handled this very well. She began by asking him if he was going to raise direct taxes. Mr Speaker, in the manifesto last year, Labour promised not to increase income tax, not to increase national insurance, and not to increase VAT.

6:03Does the Prime Minister still stand by his promises? And he stood up and said... Yes. Short, sweet answer.

6:13Gordon Rayner: In which he did answer the question, importantly. In which he did unusually answer the question, and his side thought, well, he snookered her there by giving a very clear answer. The problem is she then followed up with another question, and another question about different kinds of taxes. Will you raise pensions? Will you keep the tax bans fixed? Right. Will you introduce a wealth tax? And each time he then had to give a very long and convoluted answer that sounded like he was dodging the question. And the one that we want to focus on is this question about wealth taxes. Now he's flirting with Neil Kinnick's demand for a wealth tax.

6:51Let's be honest about what that means. This is a tax on all of our constituent savings, on their houses, on their pensions. It would be a tax on aspiration. Will the Prime Minister rule this out? Mr Fitcher says we shouldn't be asking them for advice on the economy. She's absolutely right about that. We will not be asking for their advice. What we did in the budget was to stabilise the economy through the measures taken by the Chancellor. What has that led to? Four interest rate cuts. For mortgage holders, that's hugely important. Compare and contrast what happened to the Liz Trust mini-budget.

7:29The fastest growth in the G7 in the first quarter of this year. Wages up more in the first 10 months of a Labour government than the 10 years under the Tories. So no, we don't need lessons from them. There you have the usual Prime Minister's answer. We're not going to make a budget up on the spot. We're not going to rule anything. I'm not really going to answer this question. Nonetheless, having given that very definitive answer to direct taxes, which to be fair was a manifesto commitment, so he feels he can do that. And the fact that he won't give a definitive no to these many other tax reposals is what's got many middle class taxpayers.

8:04Gordon Rayner: So she, in a very wily way, she set up the inevitable headlines, which are Starmer refuses to rule out wealth tax, which she was exactly what she was aiming for. That's exactly what's happened. And that's part of the reason we're now talking about it. But also, it's not just something that came up in PMQs. It has been sort of bubbling under all week, hasn't it? because Lord Kinnick, the former Labour leader, was on Trevor Phillips' show on Sky News on Sunday, and it came up then, and this was what he said when he was asked about it. You wouldn't have to touch assets of under 6 or 7 million, so people's houses would be secure, obviously, but even by going for an imposition of 2 % on asset values above 10 million, say, which is a very big fortune, the government would be in a position to collect 10 or 11 billion a year.

8:59Now it's not going to pay all the bills, but it does two things, or that kind of levy does two things. One is to secure resources, which is very important, revenues. But the second thing it does is to say to the country, we are the government of equity. And this is a country which is very substantially fed up with the fact that whatever happens in the world, whatever happens in the UK, the same interests come out on top, unscathed all the time, while everybody else is paying more for gutted services. How unhopeful is that to the Labour leadership to have a retired great statesman coming on and saying things like that and raising speculation?

9:46The basis for the speculation, of course, we should add, is because the welfare bill fell through. And something between£5 to£1 billion now has to be accounted for. And they have made it clear that this means that other benefits goodies are no longer on the table. But we also suspect tax rises will come in the autumn statement so that the Prime Minister can stay within her fiscal rules on borrowing.

10:07Gordon Rayner: Yeah, and Kemi Baden-Ock knows that. And after Crygate last week, she is just going to keep punching the bruises, isn't she? She knows that it's their big vulnerability. She just keeps asking them about tax. They keep giving sort of evasive answers, which makes them sound shifty. She makes Rachel Reeves, therefore, look a bit shifty. It's a bit like a boxer after his opponent suffered a cut, an eye or something. They just keep punching away at that until they have to retire, which is what she probably hopes will happen to Rachel Reeves. Yeah. Anyway, regardless of whether wealth taxes are a good idea politically, there's also the question of whether they actually work economically.

10:43Gordon Rayner: Our economics reporter, Emma Taggart, joins us in the studio. Thanks for having me. Your debut, I believe. Yeah, very excited. Good, good. You've been writing about wealth taxes, haven't you? Just give us a little flavour of where they've been tried before and whether or not they actually work. So this has been a bit of an experiment for a number of countries. Way back in 1995, there were around 12 countries across the world that were really invested in introducing wealth taxes. They included Sweden, Luxembourg, Finland. However, we've seen that a lot of governments have found it difficult to implement.

11:19There's been challenges in actually determining people's wealth and collecting the tax as it's a bit harder to levy on wealth as opposed to income. So people's assets and investments, property, pensions. Most recently in 2018, France actually abolished its wealth tax because of these issues with collection. actually costs rather a lot of money in order to establish these different levels. And instead, they've gone with a real estate wealth tax on properties of 1.3 million euros or more. So that's an alternative way in which one government has sought to move away from an overall wealth tax to one that just looks at property.

12:01Gordon Rayner: Yeah, because I suppose the point we need to explain is that the wealth taxes that we are talking about are a tax on people's overall wealth as opposed to, say, income, aren't they? Yes. So a lot of Labour MPs are making noises about wanting a 2 % tax on everything over£10 million worth of wealth, i.e. assets. Presumably there's also an issue of whether people stick around to be taxed because presumably capital flight becomes an issue in these countries as well, does it? Right. And that's something that we've seen come up recently in the UK, where we're seeing city grandees, business leaders talking about if we introduce this tax, it makes the UK a less attractive economy for entrepreneurs, for investors, the type of people we want in this country in order to boost the economy.

12:49And if we see them leave, then actually, who are we going to be left taxing with this wealth tax? And it would come on top of the non-DOMs reversal, on top of removing the VAT exemption for private school fees. So it feels as though the process of ratcheting up has already begun on the quote unquote super wealthy. So this is just a sort of logical next step. Why don't we just go for the assets as well? And of course, we already in this country have capital gains tax and tax on dividends. whereas this actually takes property and pensions into account and all of these things. So could it include the value of your house?

13:28Yeah, I think that's my understanding is that in most countries it would include your property, your pensions, your assets. This tax could actually end up penalising some of those middle class, upper middle class whenever these pension pots and properties and investments are all taken into account that they could actually find themselves falling into this.

13:48Gordon Rayner: I guess also people who live in inherited properties will then find themselves potentially facing a 2 % tax every year on the value of that, which they may not be able to afford. You mentioned main homes there. I think in your piece, it talked about the idea that countries that have brought these wealth taxes in very quickly come under huge pressure to exempt things like you mentioned pension funds. That tends to be the first thing that they sort of fold it on and then they start to exempt pension funds. then the value of someone's business tends to get exempted because obviously that's anti-business.

14:23Gordon Rayner: And then they come under pressure to take people's main residence out of it. And in the end, I think what's happened in a lot of countries is they end up losing 90 % of the assets that would count towards that overall wealth. And so you end up with 10 % of the tax base you started off with. Right. And that's why it's one of these taxes that's extremely difficult to levy because you have all these exemptions that then add up. And then what are you left with at the end? Yeah. So I think that the people pushing for it say that it would raise£24 billion a year. But presumably we think, well, if it was only 10 % of that, we'd be talking about£2.4 billion, wouldn't we?

15:01Gordon Rayner: And that's assuming people stick around to be taxed in the first place. But what about the counter argument? And it was made also with the tax rate on farmers that part of the problem is that the rich get around paying taxes by sinking their money into assets. and we're in a situation in which we've got to find the money from somewhere. They don't want to go after those things which would discourage productivity like your income, etc. So doesn't it make sense just to take a little bit away from the thing that the super rich have just sunk all their cash into? Right. And I think that's why Kirchstheimer uses the phrase that, you know, those with the broadest shoulder should carry the heaviest burden.

15:38But actually, I think the IFS flagged that there are maybe more progressive ways of introducing or ways of taxation that might work better to reform the tax system to make it more suitable for those things, such as like reforming capital gains tax and changing it to a system that works more similarly to the income tax bonds and income tax thresholds. And that's one way of doing it. I think the issue that some people have is that the wealth taxes just become increasingly difficult to put in place and to carry out over a sustained period of time, whereas something like reforming capital gains tax might be a bit easier for a government to implement.

16:20And the people who mainly are taxed by capital gains tax are also those who have higher levels of investments and assets right.

16:29Gordon Rayner: Interestingly, although Starmer has said that the broader shoulders should bear the greatest burden. He's also talked about wealthy people not being a bottomless pit of money to be mined, hasn't he? But YouGov did a poll on this this week, and 75 % of the public are in favour of this idea of a 2 % tax on assets over 10 million. So I guess that then puts pressure on him from his backbenchers to explore this, because they're just going to say to him, look, this is really popular with the public, you should do it. Isn't part of the issue that the public, when polled about it don't regard themselves as wealthy.

17:03So if you're asking them, should the wealthy pay a wealth tax? They'll go, yeah, because they don't think that means them. But I noticed in Spain, isn't it called the solidarity tax? Right. So I wonder if it could be framed as a kind of a donation to the rich. And there has been this interesting movement of millionaires saying, I want to pay more taxes. They have managed to find a few people willing to sign on to that. And these are sort of the ideas that get cheered at places like Glastonbury, which are traditionally the preserve of the rich. Is there actually a growing movement among upper middle classes to demand socialism be thrust upon them?

17:37That's a great question. I definitely, I think that in the States, I feel like that's more of a phenomenon, right? Where you have millionaires or business executives talk about how they think that they should be taxed more. I don't know whether that's a trend that's picking up here, though. Well, yeah, I think you're right about America, because in America where Mamdani, the Democratic candidate for New York, did very well, he tended to do well in rich white neighborhoods who would theoretically have to pay for his policies. It was poorer and black neighborhoods that voted against him, which is odd because he presents himself as a class candidate, as the candidate of the working class, but the working classes seem more skeptical of this kind of economics.

18:19Gordon Rayner: The Americans are very philanthropic, aren't they? And they're very generous. But I've always thought they like to decide for themselves where they give that money away rather than handing it over to somebody else to decide what to do with it. Yeah, but it could be that increasingly it is actually the wealthy wasp elite who are voting for this sort of economics. And I just wonder if there is a – if ultimately it crashes against the common sense of working voters, that even if they – they don't mind the idea of someone paying more on the basis of their wealth, but they can just sense that this is not going to work.

18:52and it's part of a general package of bad ideas coming out of politicians.

18:57Gordon Rayner: Yeah, I mean, Labour are already having to run back on non-doms because they can see that thousands of people are just leaving the country so there's no one to tax. Yeah. So, yeah, I'm not sure that we have a group of middle-class people screaming to be taxed more money in this country. Maybe a few sort of in North London, near Jeremy Corbyn, but I don't know if it goes much beyond that. Anyway, well, look, it's a subject that's not going to go away. I'm sure we'll be talking about it an awful lot over the next few months before the budget. But in the meanwhile, Emma, thanks ever so much for coming in.

19:30Gordon Rayner: It was a great day for you on the daily tea. We'll have you back, I'm sure. Great. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. Following on from what Emma said there, we also have a very interesting email from Paul Hetherington, who says, What strikes me here is that the government has no comprehension of the mobility of seriously wealthy people, despite the much-discussed exodus of high net worth since they came to power. Polling suggests that the general public think the rich should pay more tax, which seems to ignore the fact that it is the wealthy who already pay a far greater proportion than everyone else and can easily leave.

20:01I know several people or families worth more than the£10 million, but consistent with the shortcomings of the work of fiction that is the Rich List published by another broadsheet, most of them have no idea how much they are actually worth. Look at the high-profile entrepreneurs like Branson, Ashley, or Dyson. As soon as they try to liquidate their assets, the values plunge. And what is a private company worth? The only way to establish this is to sell it. For many families, all their wealth is locked up in such illiquid enterprises. Once again, clueless musings from people who have never spent any time in the real world.

20:36Well, thank you, Paul. And that does pick up on several things we said in that interview with Emma, namely that people might think a wealth tax is good for someone else without realising they are themselves wealthy. But also Labour's basic problem is that we live in a world in which people can move their wealth. And so long as you can do that, you can escape rapacious governments. And if people run away, then the actual income to the Treasury goes down.

21:00Gordon Rayner: Yeah, and worth mentioning that the projected number of people leaving Britain this year will be the highest number per capita of any country in the world, according to the sort of estimates that are out there at the moment. I think 16 ,000 is the estimate for how many millionaires are going to leave this year. And that's before we talk about wealth tax. That's just because of Nondon. And that's despite us getting the Bayeux Tapestry from France. Yeah. Well, maybe they'll all come back now. But as I keep telling people, if you go to Reading Museum, you will see a perfect replica of the Bayeux Tapestry on display 365 days of the year.

21:35You don't need to leave this country. You know that someone repainted the Sistine Chapel in a church in Goring-on-Sea. Goring-on-Sea? Goring-on-Sea, it's true. Goring on Thames. No, Goring on Sea. It's down on the south coast. You don't need to go to the Vatican. There is an exact replica of the Sistine Chapel on the roof of a parish church in Goring on Sea.

21:53Gordon Rayner: Wow. Well, that leads us quite neatly into the next thing we're going to talk about, which is also about travel. So I sense that you, as someone who has a fear of flying, are trying to find good reasons not to go abroad. Yeah. But we're going to be talking about an attempt by Heathrow Airport to relax people like you before they board planes by playing them some rather unusual music.

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24:04Gordon Rayner: Welcome back. Well, if you happen to be travelling through Heathrow this summer, you might hear, in fact you will hear, the sound of jet engines and the squeak of suitcases as the soundtrack to your travels. Because, starting this week, the airport's begun looping a four-minute ambient soundscape, I believe it's called, Tim, which is crafted entirely from more than 50 actual recordings made around the airport, which includes engines, scanners beeping, tannoy announcements for gateboarding. and this has all come, it's been done by a Grammy-nominated artiste called Jordan Raquet who is hoping this immersive loop is going to soothe people's holiday nerves and also ramp up the excitement for people before they get on board.

24:49Gordon Rayner: Well, before we find out whether it might work, Tim, let's just have a little clip.

25:25Hmm.

25:26Gordon Rayner: Well, Tim, as someone who is not exactly a fan of flying, is that something which makes you feel relaxed and ready to get on board? It doesn't work. And I'll tell you why it doesn't work. If you're terrified of flying, you're trying to think about anything other than flying. So to have them actually pipe in the sounds of flying is really very strange. Those are noises I associate with death. But they have combined them with a hint of a 90s rave plus the organ that you might hear in a crematorium.

26:08I, I, look, what, what are they supposed to do? What are they supposed to play? I mean, the classic is the flower duet from Lackmay. That's, that's what planes generally play. They, they try and play. And that's the sort of thing I listen to when I get on a plane.

26:19Gordon Rayner: You were telling me earlier, you listen to Baroque music to prepare yourself. I do. I pick out things like Handel, really cheerful music, which doesn't really go anywhere. You know, I'm not going to sit there and listen to the Ride of the Valkyries, you know, because again, you just want something that really calms you down. I also quite like Japanese music from the 1960s. Sort of, there's a wonderful Japanese version of itsy bitsy, teeny weeny, yellow polka dot bikini, but it's sort of sung in a Japanese voice of Japanese lyrics. And I always play that before takeoff. Can you tell us what it's called in Japanese?

26:48No, I can't. I can't, not without sounding monstrously racist. But I just listen to sort of banal, silly stuff like that. What I don't want being piped into my ears is sounds that I just associate with the headline mid-air catastrophe. Right.

27:07Gordon Rayner: So I love flying. Yes, this is interesting. We're the complete opposite. We're chalk and cheese on this. You actually really enjoy it. I do, yeah. Partly because it always feels like it's the start of an adventure or at least something fun. I've flown in all sorts of... I like flying in helicopters if I get the chance. Really? I've flown in a Lancaster bomber, which is one of the highlights of my life. Have you got like a one in two chance of dying if you fly in a helicopter? I wouldn't do that if I were you. It's a lot safer than riding a motorbike. I can tell you that for definite. So, yeah, so we're opposites.

27:38Gordon Rayner: And I mean, I love the smell of aviation fuel when I get to the air. Really? Yeah, that really sort of, you know, gets my adrenaline going. You love the flammable smell. I do. I do. I do. I also quite like the smell of petrol because I love cars. Right. Anyway, you were telling me before we came on about all the different things you've tried. You've been through the whole list, haven't you, of supposed cures. And people always say to me, have you tried hypnotherapy? Yes, of course I tried hypnotherapy. I went for several weeks. I just regarded it as a very expensive nap. It was great. This very nice lady talked me through it.

28:15We discussed my anxieties, issues with my father. She started talking. I fell asleep. I woke up 30 minutes later. Anything could have happened during that period. It turns out I'm a very suggestible person. But then having been through all of that, having been trained to go to the airport and say certain words and be very calm, ultimately when I sat down and put the seatbelt on, I just thought, I'm going to die screaming. No amount of preparation can really take that. It's like giving someone therapy before going to the guillotine. Here are some techniques to cope with the electric chair. Once you sit down on it, you still think, I'm about to die.

28:50They probably do have that. So you've tried other things as well, haven't you? What else have I tried? Well, I've tried alcohol. Right. I've tried prescription medication. It's a little bit easier when you're flying with someone. It's actually much easier if you fly with someone who's even more frightened than you. Right. So I once, coming back from Russia, was with my mother, and I'm okay at descents for some reason because it's coming to an end. And it was one of those...

29:12Gordon Rayner: That's the bit where you're going to die, though, when you hit the ground. I know that's where you send the biggest chance. Don't get me wrong, I know all of this is irrational, but as we were coming down, it was so windy, it took off again. And my mother almost gave birth to a kitten. And in that weird moment, I achieved a state of Zen. And I was saying, it's okay. There's nothing to worry about. I think maybe if I was to travel with, say, children, where I had some responsibility. But I think particularly being by yourself, you just think and think and think. And everything about the experience is just wrong.

29:39You're trapped in a tin can in the middle of the air, surrounded by awful fat people breathing over you. So there was one occasion where I got on the plane. I went to my seat. there was an enormous man sitting next to me, eating like a multi-pack of skips. And I just, I had a complete meltdown and I had to get off the plane. So I found an air hostess or stewardess, whatever we're calling them nowadays. And I said, I'm getting off this plane. And if you just put it very coolly, she just knew I wasn't mucking about. And so she took me to the front and they had just closed the door. And legally, once they do that, it costs them millions to reopen that door.

30:16So they said to me, I'm afraid we really want you to stay on this plane. So would you fly business class? And I reluctantly agreed. And it's one of the nicest flights I've ever had. It won't surprise you to hear. And you've done it on every flight since, no doubt. No, but on that occasion, the pilot even came out and talked to me. Did he explain to you how a plane stays in the air?

30:36Gordon Rayner: Yes, he did. Yes. And why turbulence is nothing to worry about. And he said, the thing we worry about is about is people smoking in the toilets, which I, So, but again, that's one of the strangest things about airplanes. It's the one time in your life when you really need to smoke. Right. And they're hottest on banning it. That's when they really won't allow it. But I think that's one thing that could make it a little bit easier is if I could light up. Have you ever worked out what the root of, what started this? Was there something that sort of... It's the time I was on a plane and it fell out of the air.

31:02Right. No, I have no idea. I think it's a scenario which combines many different phobias. I don't think it's just heights. I think it's claustrophobia. I think it's lack of control. I don't understand this. I don't understand science. I don't believe it's something God wants us to do. I think we're defying the Lord by flying. So there are lots of different things that are playing at the same time. But you enjoy it. And I don't want to take that away from you. My father loved flying. And the last thing he did before he died was he finally paid for a small plane flight where he got to fly. He was busy, could barely do anything.

31:38But he turned up for this lesson and the pilot saw him and realized this is a very sick man yeah but i'm gonna take him anyway i'm gonna break all the insurance rules take all the risks and so you know i do think about that you know my father loved it enough that that was the last thing he got to do so i do appreciate that for some people it's a very magical and thrilling experience yeah oh well uh

31:57Gordon Rayner: well anyway um well done for all the times you've bravely boarded a plane to go somewhere on an assignment for the telegraph we'll see if um next time you're at heathrow whether it does have the effect that you think or not but we'll see i doubt it there we are anyway after that no way we can follow that so let's leave it there for today we'll be back tomorrow same time five o 'clock

33:04We'll see you next time. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R dot com.

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