‘You’re lying!’: Tories, Reform and Labour clash in feisty Daily T debate

0:02The Telegraph.

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0:45Tim, we're in very sunny Worthing. We're by the seaside because we're just about to record a Wright Royal special on the Daily Tee. That's going out tomorrow, Friday, as a weekend episode. Today's episode is the first day of the Roadshow that we recorded on Monday night in Westminster. That's right. We had a question time style debate and we were joined by James Murray for Labour, who works at the Treasury, by James Cleverley, who is Shadow. Housing. Well done. For the Conservative Party. And Zia Yusuf, who is Shadow. Home Affairs Spokesman. And Head of Policy. He was Head of Policy and Chairman, but I can't keep up.

1:24Many hats, many hats for the Reform Party and an audience of thousands. Indeed, cast of thousands and, let's be honest, quite a few ding-dongs on stage. So please do enjoy this special Daily Tea politics special in London with me, Camilla Tomini. And me, Tim Stanley.

1:52Before we bring out our special guests, the Prime Minister has said that he intends to fight the next election.

2:03Assuming he means the local elections, he might just make it, but it's touch and go. Just touch and go. And as we speak, the king and queen have landed in America. Yes. And we were theorising what Donald Trump might make of whoever comes next to him. Yes. What might he make of the key leadership rivals to Keir Starmer? Well, obviously, Ed Miliband wouldn't get within 50 yards of the White House because he looks like a single-person shooter. LAUGHTER

2:41West Streeting would freak him out with those scary eyes and keep saying, I'm shocked, I'm shocked by everything he says. Andy Burnham would sow confusion because he's king of the north. I already thought I met the king. Who is this one? But as for Angela Rayner, we think they would get on really well. Yes. I can imagine he wouldn't know whether to shake her hand or crown her Miss Alabama.

3:07Shall we bring out our special guests? Let's introduce to the stage now James Murray, who is the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, also known as Rachel Reeves' right-hand man.

3:24Welcome, James. And we have James Cleverley, who's the Shadow Housing Secretary.

3:37He's brought in some ringers, ladies and gentlemen. And we have Zia Youssef, who is the Reform Home Affairs... Yay!

3:57So, we thought we'd have an icebreaker, didn't we, Tim? We did. First of all, a bit of housekeeping. no party political broadcasts. If we feel people are starting to give a speech, we will interrupt. But we do want you all to speak to each other and speak over each other, because that makes a much better TV. We wanted to ask you, how would you describe the other two parties here tonight in a film title? I'll start with James Cleverley. In a film title? Yes. 12 Angry Men

4:38it's not really a film but a long standing TV programme Lost

4:50I think we need James Murray to give us his comeback to that okay laying down the gauntlet there James. I think for yourself, James, I'm going to have to go with Clueless as an movie. And what would I go for for Zia? I think it would have to be Groundhog Day because it is recycled conservative policies ending up in the Reform Party. Oh, Zia Youssef, lock and load. All right, so let's get Labour out of the way. Dumb and dumber. All right, there you go.

5:29APPLAUSE

5:34Without question. And I think for the Tories, I'm going to go for a lesser-known film. I'd be interested in how many people in this room have watched it. It's kind of an indie film from the 50s. It was called Invasion of the Body Snatchers. All right, James Murray. We did read at the weekend that the latest prime ministerial reset is going to be to reshuffle your boss, the Chancellor Rachel Reeves, out of the Cabinet. What's all that about? Well, that's complete rubbish, if you look at it. Yeah, look, Kia and Rachel have been working hand-in-hand in terms of making sure we are stabilising their public finances, stabilising the economy, and rebuilding our country.

6:17And look, I wonder what your audience would think about the state of the public finances and public services that we inherited from the previous Conservative administration, with public finances being such a difficult state and public services collapsing. And again, we can have a political conversation about this, but we've taken decisions as a government, some of them very difficult, but I think the right ones, to support our public finances to do so in a way that has responsible public finances and that makes sure we can invest for the future. And if you look at the extra investment we are putting in to energy, housing, transport, that is, our judgment is the right thing for the future of the country.

7:00We have a question from someone called Daniel who asks, if Labour is truly the party of the people, why are they raising taxes, targeting our savings and pensions, pushing businesses out of the UK and driving wealthy residents abroad?

7:20We've taken decisions at two budgets now where we've had to take some decisions on taxation that have been at many turns difficult, but we have taken decisions that we think are fair and right in order to restore the public finances and to support public services. Now, we had a choice when coming into office about moving away from the collapsing public services that we inherited. We knew that that would mean we'd have to take some tough decisions on tax. But we have taken decisions that we believe are right and fair to support our public services. And you can see now NHS waiting lists now falling.

7:58They've come down the lowest. They're coming down for the first time in three years. Hang on, let's clarify that. Waiting lists have come down. 12-hour waits on trolleys have gone up under Labour. I did put this to Wes Streeting directly, and he agreed with that, Mr Murray. So, but just hold that thought for a minute. James Cleverley, let's be honest. If you had been better in opposition, the Prime Minister still wouldn't be in post, would he? The last Labour opposition managed to finish off, or helped to finish off, four Conservative Prime Ministers in eight years. So if you had really, truly opposed, and you'd been stronger if you consider the government to be woeful, if you think that the Prime Minister and indeed the Chancellor aren't doing a good enough job, why didn't you move more quickly last week, table that confidence motion, have confidence in your own confidence motion, and force him out?

8:51Labour are better at opposition than the Conservatives. No, Camilla, that is... Oh, yeah, no, Labour are better at opposition because it's their natural comfort zone and they should get there as soon as possible.

9:06And, you know, the bottom line is, because of the mistakes we made in particularly the last couple of years that we were in government, we don't have that many MPs, and that is a painful lesson that we have learned. But the bottom line is, the parliamentary maths means that we can't force Keir Starmer out. I had a conversation about a year ago... Well, Keir Starmer did help to force Boris Johnson out, and he had a strong-king majority. but the no, Keir Starmer didn't force Boris out Boris made mistakes and it was the Conservative Party it was the Conservative Party, there's a big difference between our parties, when we decide that a Prime Minister isn't working for the country, we get rid of the Prime Minister, there is an argument to say that we do that a little bit too often I was at an event with a senior Labour MP who was saying saying, oh, it's all right for you Conservatives, you've got a process to get rid of Prime Ministers, we haven't got the process.

10:08And I said, we never used our process. If you want to get rid of Keir Starmer, you can do so, but you guys just haven't got the balls. Now, the point is, the point is that this Labour government has been an absolute disaster. Businesses are going under, business rates are going up, youth unemployment is going up, the cost of borrowing is going up. Inflation is higher than when they took office. All the key indicators and the flight of talent from this country is absolutely petrifying. So when James talks about making difficult choices, the word you're looking for is bad choices. The government is making bad choices.

10:52And we are all going to suffer accordingly. Now, we know that we have got a job to do. We have got to hold the government to account even with the reduced numbers that we have got and we've got to make sure we're ready to step into the next generation as general election to do the job that conservatives always have to do after a Labour government which is clear up the mess and get the country back on its feet. I want to bring Zier in but I want to very quickly ask a very short answer from James Murray. Of these two fine gentlemen, who do you regard as the real opposition to Labour? Well, His Majesty's opposition opposite us in the House of Commons is obviously the Conservatives.

11:34Yeah, okay, I know technically in the House it is, but who is the real threat to Labour at the next election? Yeah, well, I think the way it's going, it feels like the next election is going to be a battle between Labour and reform. Right. And it's about the different visions of the country that we have. And I think that is going to be, that feels like to me, that is going to be the big question of the next election. Zia, you must be happy to hear that. Well, look, number one, I think it's a weird line of attack and defense here that, you know, who's better at unseating an appalling prime minister who should have never been prime minister in the first place, right?

12:08That is an odd place for British politics to be, and I think it's a sad place for British politics to be. Look, number one, I just want to make the point in regards to James' comments earlier. Look, since Labour came to power, they borrowed manifold times more than they claimed that they would. They've taken unemployment in this country to five-year highs, youth unemployment to 10-year highs, higher than the European Union. That's the first time that has ever happened in our history. So the idea that all of that happening, small businesses being crushed, sole traders being crushed, farmers in some cases being driven to suicide, The idea that all of that would happen under a Labour government, taking control from a Tory government who had left the country in an appalling state.

12:56Look, we need serious people in government again. We need to be a country that has an average tenure of prime minister of more than a few months, right? That is just a fact. We need ministers who are not reshuffled every single year. And that's why what reform is saying is we need a whole new approach to government. And the majority of Nigel's cabinet, if we win the next general election, the majority of Nigel's cabinet will be people, number one, it will be a much smaller cabinet. So, you know, no one, I defy anyone to tell me they've sat in a meeting of 25 people and it being a useful consensus driven, ideas driven meeting.

13:37That just doesn't happen. And then number two, not only will it be smaller, the majority of those people, the people in that cabinet, will be from outside of politics. You know, they won't be from the Tory party, they won't be from the Labour party or any other party. We need a whole new approach. And they will not be reshuffled every 12 months. So we're not in this insane situation of doing education for five minutes and health for 10 minutes and then defence for 15 minutes. We need a wholesale change to how we govern this country. We need serious people. And with regards to how we think about this broader point of Britain's economy, we still think, look, I'm in politics, and I genuinely wouldn't be in politics if I did not believe this.

14:18I still think there is a potential for an amazing outcome for us and our children and their children. And there is going to be a massive change in the world order, I think, over the next decade and two decades. But what's clear is this. It is crystal clear. The era of soft power is over. It's an era of hard power now. President Trump, whatever you think of him, is discharging not just hard power, but raw power. And it's time we woke up. Britain needs to rebuild, rearm and compete on the world stage. OK, OK. But before we get there, before I'm sorry, I will bring you in, James. but I just want to nail this one point.

14:55Before we get there, you have to get elected. And people in this audience come from constituencies where it might be that the Tory is more likely to beat Labour. And if the economy is... Close your ears, James. If the economy is so bad and the country is such a mess and we're all trying to figure out how we should vote, isn't it time to put aside this rivalry? I can see very little difference between you. And just unite to beat Labour. This is a question that a number of people asked us to ask you this evening, including Charles and George, who put it very, very simply. If reform and the Conservatives truly care for their country, will they reach an agreement to protect it from a left-wing coalition?

15:34Well, James first. So we're talking about... You gave James the question. It's obviously in his interest to try and damage the official opposition who've actually got the job of holding him to account. So, of course, he's going to say reform. But he and I both know that he's talking nonsense when he says that. But the point is, look at revealed preference. Look at revealed preference. Whenever we have got Labour on the ropes, reform attack the Conservatives. Reform are not trying to hold this government to account. They're not trying to kick this government out. They're trying to damage the Conservatives, which goes on to, I think, in large part, answer the question about deals and coalitions or whatever.

16:19Nigel Fraj and others have made it clear over and over again that their main priority is to destroy the Conservative Party. That does not sound like the prelude to a successful partnership. Now, our job as the Conservative Party, the official opposition, is to hold this government to account, get our policies in the right place to replace Labour at the next general election and set the country back on the road to recovery. We are being hampered by reform, which doesn't say... No, you're being hampered by the voters, James. You keep giving reform enormous leads over both Labour and the Tories. But the point is, it's not about opinion polls or whatever, It's about actual functions in Parliament.

17:13Reform always take the opportunity to attack us rather than the government, but it's the government that is doing the damage to the country. We're doing our job. What they want to do is up to them. Look, Kemi Badenock has also been critical of reform in the past, and I think a lot of people here don't like to see the blue on blue. And we'll come to... No, it's not blue on blue. They're not blue. It's right on right. They're not blue. It's turquoise on blue. They're voting for more welfare payments. They're voting for nationalised industry. They are not a Conservative party. It's still a form...

17:43There is only one Conservative party. James, it's still a form of friendly fire on the right. It's not friendly. We'll get on to James and whether he wants to cosy up to... It's not friendly. We'll get on to James Murray and whether he wants to cosy up to the Keir Starmer's bestie in the Commons, Ed Davey. But just a moment. Zia Yusuf, you have to clear this up, because may I say that you have been inconsistent with me on this subject, as has Nigel Farage. So you publicly give all of this rhetoric around, we hate the Tories, the Tories are dead, we want to destroy the Tories. And a couple of times I've asked you on my GB News show, listen, if push came to shove, if really the country were facing four more years of Labour or a so-called progressive alliance, would you have conversations with the so-called opposition, and the Conservatives, and you've basically indicated you probably would.

18:37So why are you saying one thing publicly and another thing on occasion? Both publicly, so just to be crystal clear. Well, be honest. Okay, so let's go through that. I am going to answer that question directly, but I want to start by addressing a couple of things we just said there. Mr. Cleverley just said that all reform do is attack the Conservative Party. Our literal campaign slogan, it's my Twitter image as a background image, is simple. Vote reform, get Starmer out, right? That is our campaign slogan. Couldn't do better than that, number one. Number two, you know, James talked, he used to, a couple of phrases there which stood out to me.

19:14Number one, he talked about revealed preferences. I'm a big fan of revealed preferences. I think they're all important. And here's the interesting revealed preference. Let's look at ballot box results recently. Ron Corn and Helsby, the Conservative Party, the natural party of government, the most successful democratic party in the democratic lands on planet Earth, 7%. Kefili, by election, the Conservative Party, 2%. Gorton and Denton, the Conservative Party, 2%. Lost their deposits both times, long, long time since that happened. So look, anything can happen in the future, but I think it's crystal clear what the revealed preferences of voters are, and they're nothing like the Lord Ashcroft polls that keep coming out claiming that the Tories are at 20%.

20:08So that's a really important point. And look, we're really clear about this. Frankly, I would not even be in politics, and nor would most people in the leadership team at Reform, were in not for the catastrophic and repeated betrayals of the Conservative Party, who claimed in four consecutive manifestos they were going to cut immigration, in three of those down to the tens of thousands, and then unleashed the most unholy invasion of the United Kingdom. Important, I mean, the Boris wave alone, north of 4.5 million visas issued, 17 % of which came in on work visas. Hundreds of thousands came in illegally.

20:45So look, here's the key point. I'll make this point, this is the final point for me. We're going to get on to immigration. I want to answer your direct question, all right? I want to answer your direct question. I want to answer your direct question. Because I was on your show and I remember you asking me that question. If the general election happens and reform failed to win a majority, then sure, there are discussions that need to be had, right? Of course. But if such a thing happens, I don't think there is a path back to prosperity and power for Britain. That's my honest truth. If you want that, we need a reform majority.

21:15Okay. Before we move on to the economy, James Murray, if we're looking at the polls right now and Labour are tanking and the Greens seem to be gaining momentum, pardon the pun, and indeed Ed Davey seems to be quite intent on sucking up to the Prime Minister at Prime Minister's questions. You'll be jumping into bed with progressives, fellow progressives, won't you? You'll be wanting to form an alliance on the left, just as the Conservatives and reform might on the right. No, look, we'll be campaigning for a majority Labour government at the next general election. But you'll do a deal, won't you?

21:51No, we'll be campaigning to win across the country. But if you don't... But what we want to do is win. across the country, Camilla. If you do not win outright, you will be racing over to Ed Davies and indeed Zach Polanski's if he manages to get a seat before you can say Rainbow Coalition, won't you, James? No, look, we are absolutely focused. You and I were just talking, Camilla, before about me going out and knocking on doors. I'm knocking on doors now, campaigning for these elections next week, and we will keep doing that until the next general election to win a majority Labour government in the second term.

22:25Well, but the Greens can't be here tonight because they had a drum circle to attend. But how do you explain the fact that you're losing votes to the Greens? And it is suggested that when the voting age lowers to 16, having gifted children the vote, they're going to vote for the Pied Piper, Zach Polanski, and disappear into the mountain of madness. Yes. How do you explain why you, a progressive party, are being eclipsed by the Greens? I think when you listen to some of what the Greens say and the way that they describe problems, they are sometimes talking about issues that chime with people. You know, some people, not everyone, but some people, the way they describe frustrations, the way they describe what's going on in the country, they can describe problems in a way that can get people to acknowledge what they're saying.

23:23I think that when it goes to the question of what are their solutions, that's where it falls apart. Because their approach to economics is fantasy economics. They haven't got programs that would work. They haven't got any policies that would actually survive contact with reality. And I think that is the big difference, or one of the big differences between them and us, in that we are a party that is in government to deliver change. And we can have a political debate about whether you like what we're doing or not in this audience. I appreciate the different political views of some people in this audience.

23:57But we're determined to actually make that happen. And that's why for us, the focus is on practical policies that make a difference and move us towards where we want to get to. Whereas the Greens just don't have any policies that, in my opinion, survive contact with reality.

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24:42Let's move on to more economic matters. Zia, isn't the truth of the matter that you had to get a former Tory to be your economic spokesperson because you were worried that a reformer might spook the markets? So number one, I think whether we like it or not, I mean, I understand the throttled question, but we do as a party, assuming that we win the next general election, which is obviously our goal, whether we like it or not, this country is closing on three trillion of debt. We do have to care what international markets think. So that's the first point. I talked to bond market participants, as does Robert, and they are gravely concerned about these labor policies.

25:26And don't forget, it was the Tory party, of course, that near tripled that national debt. And by the way, I don't think I'm going to get out of my head of all of the disgusting economic policies. I mean, the word disgust is the right word to use to describe them. The idea of Keir Starmer and Rachel Reeves doing all of this quote hand in hand just takes that to a whole different level. But look, we are serious about the business of governance. This party has not been around for a very long time. You'd be the first to admit that. You know, we're talking about a party that has been around in the grand scheme of British democratic history, has been around for the blink of an eye.

26:07And so, you know, if you're going to put to me that we want to go out of our way to ensure that the people who lend, you know, the firms and the funds that lend this country money to keep the lights on, yeah, like, we do care what they think, Camilla. We really do. So you're admitting that in appointing Jenrick as the economic spokesperson, you need to incorporate some continuity conservatism into reform, which is astonishing. No, that's not what I said. Yes, James Cleverley's party's record on the economy, it's all very well criticising James Murray. You know, you left us with Sky Howe taxes.

26:44You left us with Liz Truss. People in here have got mortgages that they're paying far more for monthly because of the disastrous mini-budget. I mean, it's just interesting that you two are continuing... And how do we respond? And this is an important thing. So, firstly, we did have a European war and an energy price spike and COVID to pay for. And pretending away those once-in-a-generation, once-in-a-lifetime events is, I think, inappropriate. But the point is, we also recognise, we absolutely also recognise that when you're kicked out of government, you have to do things differently. And Kemi has been absolutely clear about the mistakes we made and the difference that we will make next time.

27:30And the point is, I mean, this is one of these things about credibility and honesty and that kind of thing in government. I mean, Zia's been incredibly personally critical about Rob Jenrick, who now apparently is the person who's going to calm the markets. And he tweeted that, was it failed conservatives trying to bring down reform from within, which is obviously a failed attack on Rob and Suella and the other people that have defected, which is quite an interesting kind of welcome present to those people that have gone across. But the fact is that, you know, we see from reform exactly what we see from the Greens, which is very emotive language, very good at getting people's attention.

28:22And, you know, Nigel Farage, one of the best political communicators in the country, and I think it would be churlish to pretend otherwise. but actually if you look at what they deliver so Zia is meant to be UK Doge and was meant to save billions of pounds getting rid of diversity and inclusion officers how many have you fired since taking control of councils across country order of magnitude none, none, none in Leicestershire in Leicestershire In Leicestershire, they commissioned a report on how to cut waste, and that report identified a million pounds worth of savings. The report cost 1.4 million pounds.

29:13Warwickshire, the highest council tax in the country. In Kent, tax going up. In Lincolnshire, tax going up. In Durham, promises to cap council tax, but a whole load of stealth taxes. The bottom line is reform have no credibility on economic issues because they are lying to the British people and hoping they won't get caught out. And the problem is the British people, the problem for them, the British people are not that credulous, they're not that daft and they won't be fooled twice. That is why their arguments on the economy have got no credibility whatsoever. To be fair to reform, with one notable exception where the council was nearly bankrupt, they've raised taxes below the threshold of where they were...

30:02Having said they were going to cut taxes? Well... You can't just go, yeah, but... You defend that, Zia Youssef, because I've constantly heard the line from Nigel Farage, be careful, we never promise to cut council tax, although that does beg the question, what's the point of you then? Okay. So, number one, it was really interesting to hear James there say the British public, quote, won't be fooled twice, which appears to be admitting that they were fooled once, right? And I would actually disagree with even that, because they were clearly fooled manifold times, at least on five occasions. So you've never fooled by reform.

30:39So that's number one. Number two, so there's a few points to make here. Let's look at the... There has never been more scrutiny in this country from the media on local councils than scrutiny that has been placed on reform councils. And that's totally fine. People can scrutinise reform councils. But if Tory leaders and Labour leaders were asked about their records in local governments, I mean, let's not even start on Labour and things like the bins piling up in Birmingham. Let's talk about Tory councils. Let's talk about Thuric. Tories took control of Thuric, bankrupted it. You've taken control of north of 50 councils, raised council tax in excess of 5 % each time.

31:24You've bankrupted Woking in exactly the same way. And actually at Thuric, you left that council with half a billion pounds in debt. And people point to us and ask, what's going on with reform council tax? Well, yes, reformed councils have needed to increase council tax, in the large part broadly in line with inflation, because everybody knows, and voters understand this, as a result of Tory and Labour policies, the vast majority, north of 70%, and I know this because I've spent a lot of time in town halls and at local councils, north of 70 % of local council budgets are mandated at state level, are social care, are care of children, about which not a single elected councillor can make any decisions about who gets that care, how much it should increase, etc.

32:14And by the way, as Tim just said, James, let me finish my point. Let him finish. James, let me finish my point, and then you can put something to me. You can put something to me. When you made the promise. But you claim you didn't know that. As Tim just pointed out, as Tim just pointed out, to the degree council tax has increased, reform councils, on average, reform controlled councils, and we increase council tax less than any other political party and by some margin. And so actually, by talking about fiscal prudence and being responsible with people's money, nobody has a better record than reform.

32:51A quick retort. That's just not true. It is. It absolutely is true. James, it absolutely is. But you can lie with confidence, but it doesn't make it true. No, no, no, hold on. Let's not talk about lying with confidence, my friend. Let's not talk about lying with confidence. OK. I don't want to let you off the hook, James Murray, because I tell you what, there's nothing you lot at the Treasury like more than taxing us to the pipsqueak. We've got the tax burden. God help us. The tax burden is forecast to reach 38.5 % in 2030-31. How on earth does that help to bring up growth? well look when we won the general election we said we were going to make sure we protected public services but at the same time as protecting public finances now as i was saying earlier that means we've had to take decisions on tax and some of which have been have been difficult and they're tough decisions but i think they've been the right decision and actually one of the crucial things for me and forgive me if i go into the fiscal rules a bit here but because we have a system now under the fiscal rules where day-to-day spending is paid for through tax receipts.

34:06So this is not using borrowing to pay for day-to-day spending. Day-to-day spending is now fully paid for through tax receipts over the course of the scorecard, the period that we do the forecasts for. That means that we are now living within our means, and it means we are able to invest more in the future of the country. Now, that is our argument, that actually making that investment in the future of the country is the right thing to do. Because how many times have I spoken to people when I've been out campaigning and people complain not just about the health service and about other public services that they can see having fallen to pieces under the Conservatives, but also about the lack of investment in our energy security, in our railways, in our public buildings, our hospitals, and so on.

34:49All of that matters to people across the country. And because of the approach we've taken, where we pay for day-to-day spending through tax receipts, so not borrowing to pay for day-to-day spending, but then investing in the future of the country whilst getting debt falling as a proportion of GDP, that is the way to make sure we can invest in the future in a responsible way. But for all that, there's an ickle bit of growth, but it's not nearly big enough yet. And a question from Peter, how are you going to get us out of this mess? And don't answer, rejoin the EU, or I will scream. That's not me, that's Peter.

35:22Though I don't want to join the EUI. Well, if you look at the economic data, most recent growth data from February, it was 0.5 percentage points growth. So actually good news from February. And if you put alongside that the figures on unemployment coming down and on borrowing coming down, we had some really good economic data. Now, look, that is from the period before the... Inflation's up a little bit, I should add. Inflation's up. we need to be clear here that if you look at the data around growth, unemployment and borrowing, they show that we have the right plan, but I think we need to be conscious of the fact that what's happened in Iran it may not be our war, we may have said we didn't want to get involved in it, but it will still impact us, all of us, here in this country that will have an impact, that will put pressure on the economic situation in the UK.

36:13James, the Telegraph is the newspaper of people who work really hard and save and invest in open businesses. They do things like run pubs and they might be landlords, et cetera. And one thing that really frustrates them is the sense that the government keeps placing greater and greater burdens in terms of regulation upon the middle class. For instance, we have the renters' rights bill come in. And I know of people who are selling off properties right now because they're worried about what that's going to do to them. Or you could talk about the taxes on farms or you could talk about the many taxes that are hitting pubs really hard such that they don't really make a profit anymore.

36:47Whatever your good ambitions might be, why do you keep piling these new regulations and costs upon people who, they're not trying to exploit anyone, they're just trying to make a bit of money and contribute to their community by running a good business? And, to be fair, pay people's benefits. Well, let's say... Yeah.

37:11And I want to make sure that anyone who's on benefits, who can work, is working. Anyone who should be working, that is our problem. But look, can I just, there's quite a few different questions there of what you just raised. Can I just pick up, Tim, on the point you raised around renters' rights? Because I think this speaks to a bigger question about housing as well, which is a huge issue in many parts of the country, right across the country. The Renters' Rights Act, which comes into force on the 1st of May, will be a big change in terms of what it means for the rights that individual renters have.

37:47And for us, it is about rebalancing the system. Because a few decades ago, if you were renting privately, you might have been doing it short term, maybe when you were young, maybe as a student or someone who had recently left school or university. It would be a temporary tenure whilst you saved up and then bought a home. Because of the housing reality in lots of parts of the country now, people are renting more long term. People with children, people with children in local schools. And so having a situation where you don't have security when you're renting privately is something that needs to change a bit.

38:21And this is about rebalancing the system to make sure that those people who rent, including families with children, have more security in their homes when they're renting privately. Now, the other half, though, of the housing question is about building more housing. And when we came into office, one of the very first things that we did was about getting those planning changes underway to make it much easier to get planning permission to build new homes, to make it much easier to get on with building new homes. And that is something which was not universally popular. It's not something which everyone agreed with us on because it was changing things in a way that hadn't been changed for many years.

39:00Under the previous government, we heard time and again how they were going to reform planning to build more housing. It never happened because it always fell over on their back benches. But we've grasped that nettle and changed the planning system to make it easier to get planning permission to build new housing. Now, that won't be universally popular. I understand that. But it is the right thing to do. And we owe it to the next generation to build those homes because, actually, it's the next generation, many of those who are renting privately and actually want to own their own home. The thing with James' answers is it demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of how business works, how the economy works.

39:34It's just...

39:39So I talk to businesses in my constituency and further afield who keep being told that their business rates are going down, but they're presenting me with documents showing their business rates are going up. And that creates a huge amount of anger. The workers' rights legislation that's come through, very, very well-intentioned, basically making it almost impossible for businesses to credibly employ young people. So youth unemployment going through the roof. The Renters' Rights Act. I, for a short period of time, was a landlord. And trust me, when you get a good tenant, they are gold dust. You want to keep that tenant.

40:23I had, Susie and I had a tenant in a property for about three years. we didn't put their rent up once because they were such a good tenant we desperately didn't want to lose them and when ultimately we needed to sell we gave them first refusal to buy the house which is what they did and they were happy we were happy so much of this legislation is predicated on the prejudice idea that somehow all business people are fundamentally evil all landlords are trying to screw over their tenants all businesses are trying to do the wrong thing And the point is, the point is, all this legislation is hurting the very people that it's meant to help.

41:10And that is absolutely unacceptable. Zia Yusuf, just a very quick point on this, because Ian has asked, do we need another Thatcherite revolution? And I don't know whether he's directing that at you or indeed James Cleverley, But just on house building, I mean, are you a Thatcherite, first of all? And second of all, would you rather people owned or rented? Yeah, so I think Margaret Thatcher was an incredible prime minister. But we're living in the year 2026. The world has moved on. And I think if Margaret Thatcher was alive today, she would be implementing somewhat different things. I'll make a couple of points.

41:45Unlike James, who was crushing business with the Tory government over their 14 years, I was building a business. I started a company in a lower ground floor flat, ended up hiring hundreds of people, paying tens of millions of pounds. in tax that business. And here's what the Tories did. Supposedly the party that were going to protect businesses, small, medium, and large, and here's what they did. They took the tax burden to the highest level since World War II. They created IR35 and went to war with independent contractors trying to earn a simple and useful living. They relentlessly targeted corporations who were trying to create jobs here.

42:21They increased corporation tax. And so to hear The Conservatives now talk about how they want to be about a small state when they did all of those things, I think, is absolutely for the birds. What we need is reform. We've been crystal clear about this. We need wealth creators in this country, right? And we're crystal clear. If Britain wants to be prosperous and powerful again, we need lots of wealthy people here. We need all of these expats who have been fleeing, and it started again under the Conservatives, to come back to Britain and create jobs in this country. Nigel has been campaigning about these issues.

42:56Everything I just talked about, Nigel was countering and relentlessly campaigning against as an independent person, in most cases, outside of politics. So that's what reform will bring. We're on the side of people who build businesses. We want Britain to be, and I'm crystal clear about this as someone who, as I said, built a reasonably successful business in this country and sold it. We want Britain to be the best country to start a business, scale a business, and run a business. Okay. Okay. James Cleverley, immigration ran so high under the Tories that it's got a name, the Boris wave. Net migration of 2.6 million people.

43:32That's extraordinary. Now, since Labour came to power, in their defence, 60 ,000 people have been deported or have left the UK, a rise of 30 % compared to the previous 19 months. Why was Labour able to do something you weren't? I deported loads of people when I was Home Secretary. Now, the figures have gone up largely because of the framework that I put in place when I was Home Secretary. You're talking about peak immigration. And you're right, that did happen under Conservatives. Who was that? Who was that? Oh, yeah. Suella Gravelman and Rob Jenrick, who are currently in reform. the changes to the visa regime, which lots of people have talked about, but I actually negotiated through the right-round process to actually get on the statute books, meant that we have seen the largest fall in net migration ever from, yes, a high, because of the decisions that I made when I was Home Secretary.

44:37In the heart of my constituency, I've got the Robert Jenrick Memorial Asylum Accommodation Centre in Wethersfield that he flew in in a helicopter to open in my constituency. So the bottom line, I did my bit as Home Secretary, bringing down net migration, tightening up our processes, making sure that the system was able to get people out of the country who had no right to be in the country. So on this one, I am more than happy to stand toaster with my personal record on getting a grip of immigration, unlike my predecessors in that party and my successors in that party. All right. Well, let Zia Yusuf come back in just a minute.

45:18Hang on a second. I want to just ask James a question because it'll play into your answer. Why, when reform wants to make changes to things like indefinite leave to remain, or crack down on immigration or stop the boats and have deportations. Labour points at them and says you're racist and bigots, but when Shabana Mahmood does it, it's fine. Well, let me tell you about what Shabana Mahmood is setting out because I think she's a fantastic Home Secretary and the way that she's setting out her vision, our vision, of what the immigration system should be like in Britain is one that is fair, that is controlled, and it gives the right outcomes for our country.

46:01Now, that is the right thing to do. And I think if you look at what Shibana's saying, she's saying we inherited a broken system. We need to make sure that people have trust in it and that it works again. We need to process that backlog of asylum seekers who are in hotels. We need to close those hotels so that people aren't in hotels, costing taxpayers a huge amount of money to put them up there every day of the week. We need to make sure we've got that fair system. We need to make changes to indefinitely leave to remain so that it's rather than five years, 10 years would be the standard time period, a system based on contribution.

46:33These are all values that I think Shibana in particular has spoken very powerfully about in the House of Commons. And I remember when she was setting out the policies in the Commons, you know, and she said, look, having a broken immigration system actually makes it harder for her. As some of the British Pakistani, it makes it harder for her because people then shout racist abuse at her because they think the immigration system is broken and it opens people up to saying comments like that. Probably because your prime minister, your leader, keeps saying anyone who says such things is a racist and a fascist, mate.

47:08That's probably why. So I think that's why it's really important. Hasn't Zia got a point there? That's why it's really important to fix it, to make sure it's fair, that it's controlled and that it works and people have trust in it. But hang on a minute. Doesn't Zia Yusuf have a point there? and this is something that really irks telegraph readers, who have perfectly rational concerns about decades of open borders, and people on the left, including members of your party, point and say you're a racist and a bigot for wanting to install some controls. You've created that environment. Weirdly, it was Liam Byrne as immigration minister who created the term hostile environment for illegal immigrants.

47:47In the next breath, Labour disowned it and suggested there was something immoral about that statement. Why should we have anything other than a hostile environment for illegal immigrants, James Murray? You have created this rhetoric. Let me answer the question directly about reform, because you asked me about reform's policies. Let me give you an example of one of their policies, which is about retrospectively removing indefinite leave to remain from people who are here, who may have been here for many, many years, have families here, have set up businesses here, be pillars of the community, and yet their indefinite leave to remain would be at risk under reform.

48:25Now, that goes too far. The proposals that we are putting forward about extending the eligibility period from five years to 10 years, about making it much more based on contribution, about changes to English language proficiency, these are all sensible solutions to restore trust and have a controlled system. Going as far as they're going, as it was they're proposing to go, goes too far. Zia, someone has escaped war. They've come to this country. They've applied for asylum. They've been granted it. Why are you going to reopen their case? Because they broke into the country illegally. Simple as that.

48:56And the notion, look, I'm sorry, reform are not going to sit there and just accept that just because Tories for 14 years and Labour for however many years it's going to end up being just refused to uphold our laws means that we should allow people who broke into the country illegally get to stay. The idea that, look, in my home, I would want it to be a reasonably unwelcoming environment for hostile intruders, and that's exactly what I think the British public, and although the polling shows this, expect of political leadership. And we're putting this to the British people, right? So either we get an electoral mandate for it or we don't, but we could not be clearer, and this is a different policy to the Tories too, yes, we need to deport everyone who's in the country illegally, But we're talking about probably north of 400 ,000 people in the preceding five years, by the time of the next general election, who had been granted asylum, having come to the country illegally or come under false pretenders, come under a student visa.

49:53One in eight of our asylum backlog came on a student visa, for example. Unacceptable. And I want to go back to the point about, you know, James cleverly being proud of his record. Let's talk about that record as Home Secretary, because you were not Home Secretary for that long, and yet you still managed to import a million people legally, managed to allow 23 ,000 people to enter this country illegally, seven in ten of which were granted asylum, got immediate access to the welfare state, and are still here to this day. Knife crime in London went up 20 % in that time. So I'm sorry, you are as culpable as anybody in the Conservative class.

50:29You were as culpable as anybody. Well, look, they're not going to be running home affairs. They're not going to be part of the home office. That's right. They're not going to be part of the home office. And people like you, people like you, what they are not doing is standing on stage saying that they are super proud of the record of the Conservative Party. And that's what you are doing right now. You literally just gave a sermon. You just gave a sermon about how you were proud of your record when you imported a million people in the blink of an eye. Let James Clement respond to that. I was clearing up Rob and Suellar's mess.

50:59That's a simple fact. And both of those policies... So you're not responsible. So you're not responsible for anything to happen. I just want to say, because they're not here. Robert and Suela are not here. They're at a drum circle too. They did both resign in protest at your government's policies. No, they didn't. So which version... They did. So are you claiming they didn't... Are you claiming Robert Jenner didn't resign, James? So which version... Because you talked about lying with confidence here. You just claimed that Robert Jenner didn't resign. Do you want to repeat that claim? James, do you want to repeat that claim?

51:26You know that. You just said it. Tim Stanley just put to you that Robert Jenner resigned. Robert Jenner resigned? because he felt your government wouldn't do what was necessary to make the Rwanda plan work. And yet somehow I got the legislation through the House, I got the visa changes through, and legal migration fell dramatically. So Rob's saying, oh, he wasn't allowed to do it, yet somehow I wasn't allowed to do it. A million people arrived while you were Home Secretary. So what I'm curious... But James, you've got to answer for your record. OK, one at a time. You can't keep claiming things that aren't true.

51:56A million people arrived legally on your watch as Home Secretary. Are you proud of that? So which Zia Yusuf are we meant to believe? The one who spent ages slagging off Rob Jenrick, calling him a liar, calling him a disgrace, calling him someone that's trying to undermine your party from within, or this version of Zia Yusuf, who is so proud of what he's done and that kind of stuff? I just want to know which version of you has turned up to him. James, you are sitting there saying that you just told this audience, this is why I'm putting this to you. You just said that you were proud of your record as Home Secretary.

52:26When I'm putting to you, and tell me if I'm wrong on these points, A million people arrived legally. 23 ,000 arrived in this country illegally, 70 % of whom were granted asylum. That all happened on your watch. Are you proud of that? Under a regime put in place by people in your party that I changed. That's believable. That's believable. Yeah, it was reformers. It was reformers who were compelling James to allow all of these people in, James. You accepted them in your party. Chaps. See you, mate. Chaps. You accepted the ministerial party. You are totally unwilling to accept your own record in government.

52:56This is like dealing with my kids. Generally, please, there is no fighting in the war room. Hang on, let's ask James Murray. James Murray, you're escaping... So why did you accept them into your poll? James Cleverley.

53:09James Murray, we did some exclusive polling of the British public fairly recently, which our political editor, Tony Diver, came on the Daily Tea and discussed. And one quite stark line out of it was that more than half of the people we surveyed said that they don't recognise their country anymore. Do you understand what they're saying when they're saying that mass migration has changed the complexion of some communities and that it scares people? I recognise that communities have changed over time, and I think that the level of immigration we saw toward the end of the previous government was too high.

53:53Well, do you not think that it was too high under Tony Blair? I think the levels it went up to under the previous government was, you know, it's like a million people. Can you just address Labour's record on immigration? Because people recognise net migration of 25 ,000 before 1997. In the 25 years before 1997, we're in the tens of thousands. In the 25 years post-1997, and this did start with Blair, you'll then turn tens of thousands into millions. Can I just say this point, though, because, you know, I think having immigration means communities have changed. But a lot of the ways in which they've changed have been for the better as well.

54:32And I want to make a positive case about immigration. When people come to this country and work in our health service, when they work in social care, when they do many of the important jobs for our country, when they contribute economically to our country, socially, you know, improve the economy or wider society, they can make a contribution to it. So I don't... I just want to make that important point, though, because when I talk about immigration having an impact on our country, I think we should recognise that some of that impact has been good. Now, look, in terms of what we inherited... It's created sectarian politics in many Labour seats, hasn't it?

55:09In terms of what we inherited, though, the level of immigration under the previous government had gone far too high, and we were determined to bring it down, and that is what is now happening under this government. The number of people who were in asylum hotels waiting for their decisions to be taken is not only meaning that they are in those hotels, but it's costing us as taxpayers a huge amount of money to pay for them, which is unacceptable, and that's why we are committed to closing the hotels over the far away. I just want you to address the point that there may be an irony in the fact that mass migration that incurred under Labour, successive Labour governments but also Tory Labour governments has created sectarian politics that may see you and many of your colleagues ousted at the next general election.

55:54Do you recognise that? Well I recognise when I'm campaigning and when I campaign in my area I appeal, I try and appeal to every community. You know I make sure I'm talking to everyone no matter what their background, religion, you know heritage, whatever. I talk to them and try and earn their trust. And I think our politics, you know, is strongest when it's about personal connection. And so when I spend time in my constituency, when I go and knock on doors, when I talk to people, I want to earn their individual trust.

56:35We need to move on to foreign affairs. James, if I can start by you and then obviously open up to other people. If Argentina were to attack the Falkland Islands, would and could the British government defend them? That's jumping into a hypothetical there. No, but it's important because you're talking about ways that things have changed. In 1982, we could. Let me just point you towards the reaction about what was said recently about Britain and the Falkland Islands. We made absolutely clear 100 % that the Falklands are British. It's a matter of self-determination. People have been asked. They ought to remain part of Britain.

57:17That is a subtle matter. Well, good, and I'm pleased to hear that. But my point is, if the islands were attacked, do you believe the British government could defend them today? Well, I believe that although our armed forces have been hollowed out under the previous government, we are still in a position where we're able to defend our interests. Now, I'm not going to go into specific hypotheticals. I don't think that's helpful for a government minister to do that. I'm explicitly not going to talk about those kind of hypotheticals, so I don't think it's helpful to talk about it. No, but just in case, you should send HMS Dragon now, because it'll take two or three years to get it.

57:53James Cleverley, James Cleverley, James Murray spoke rightly there about the hollowing out of defence taking place under not just Labour governments, but the Tories too. I've been on record are saying that we could and should have spent more on defence and our time in government. We lived through a period of relative peace, which in hindsight we should have realised was never going to be sustainable. I'm very proud of the response that the Conservative government had to Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine. And let me explain how you answer this question as a former Foreign Secretary. if Argentina invades the Falklands we must do whatever it takes to defend the Falklands and to object that's how you answer them there can be no question mark or ambiguity about Britain's willingness to defend our people internationally that's how you answer those kind of questions

58:59are you two are you two completely convinced that you can be trusted on maintaining the sovereignty of overseas territory when you open the negotiations on the chagos islands and you actually gave them away so camilla on that one on that one let's be absolutely clear we entered into talks with Mauritius. It was clear that our red lines, including the sovereignty of that base... Why did you do that? Just clarify it. What on earth did you do that for? Because, unlike Labour, we understand that talks do not mean you have to come to an agreement. But why have the talks? Why would you enter talks about something you have no intention doing?

59:42No, no, no. Don't insult people's intelligence. You led five rounds of talks about ceding British sovereign territory. And that's why you scurried away when it was talking about out-of-the-house performance. So you're denying that. You're going to stop talking nonsense. James, are you denying that you ran five rounds of talks about giving away the sovereign territory? That's exactly what I'm saying. At no point was I ever going to be willing to see... No, no, hold on. Why were you talking about the Chagos Islands and what were those discussions about then if they were not about the sovereignty?

1:00:10The discussions were about having uninterrupted ability to maintain British, Anglo-American military presence and functionality on the Chagos Islands. But it was already our territory. Why did you become controlled? That was what we discussed. We had red lines. And the way it works with negotiations, and again, Labour should take a lesson from this, if you have red lines, and the people you're negotiating with also have red lines, and there is no point of mutual agreement, you walk away from the talks, which is exactly what we did. So when we left government, the simple fact of the matter is the Chagos Islands were British, the British sovereignty was intact, and the point is Labour got played by the officials in the Foreign Office.

1:01:00And I know the Foreign Office line because I had it deployed to me. And they were told, and fools in the Labour Party believed that there was an imminent binding legal threat. I stood up when I was on the back benches. I stood up and I asked the government minister, from which body are you expecting this imminent legally binding decision? And they couldn't answer. And they couldn't answer because there is nobody that can enforce a legally binding decision over the Chagos Islands. So this ceding of sovereignty was a choice. and it was a choice made by someone who hates the idea of a Union Jack in the top staff side corner of flags around the world.

1:01:42That's what this is all about. We must never lose sight of this. And again, it was the Conservatives that led the charge in both the Commons and the Lords that now means that this is probably not going to happen. And I am very proud of the work that we've done in both the Commons. Okay, okay.

1:02:03Zia, it's somewhat moot anyway, because Donald Trump has said he doesn't approve of the Chagos deal. Much seems to hinge upon the special relationship still, but he's becoming an unreliable partner in some people's eyes. You think about Greenland, you think about Iran. Your party once had a very close relationship with him. Are you going to deploy that? How will reform manage Donald Trump? Well, so, number one, I just want to make sure James is on the record here, because, again, he talked about lying with confidence. If documents come into the public domain at some point, and we could have a reformed government at some point capable of releasing such documents, the negotiations that you, as Foreign Secretary, led the charge on at no point was the sovereignty of the United Kingdom, was Chagos, was Britain's sovereignty over Chagos in question as part of those discussions, James?

1:02:50Is that what you just want to say right now? This is being recorded. This is being recorded. It's simply yes or no question. Was the sovereignty of the Chagos Islands to Britain in any way in question as a result of the negotiations that you led? I know you think you've got a Trump card. Yes or no? Yes or no, James? I know you think you've got a Trump card, but I've already said that in the Chamber of the House of Commons. OK, so at no point was the sovereignty in question. We had red lines. We were not going to cede sovereignty. Was sovereignty in question as part of the negotiations? You started the negotiations.

1:03:19Are you saying no? It's hard to understand. Can I just say, it's easy this. You know you were giving advice to James Murray. I do say this to all your politicians. It's really easy. You just say yes or no. I have already said... Yes or no. Don't please smile, James Murray, because we'll be firing him here in a minute. Our red line was to not cede sovereignty. Got it? OK. I've said it. I've said it. Sia, let's move it. Is that a yes or no? Sia, the special relationship. Are you struggling to understand? Is that a yes or no? One word, yes or no. You're not going to get an answer that satisfies you.

1:03:53No, he said no. He said no. We're not going to see sovereignty. We've got that on record. Sorry, which bit of not? Special relationship reforms foreign policy. Go. Well, look, clearly America is a pretty darned important trading partner to the United Kingdom, and whether we like it or not, again, not decisions reform made, but a great deal of our national defence infrastructure, including and especially our Trident nuclear deterrent, is reliant in many ways. I don't think what I understand from speaking to the military, even our fleet of F-35s, A's and B's, would struggle to be maintained and be deployed in any meaningful way without America's support.

1:04:32So that is just an obvious fact. To the degree President Trump or the American administration have said things that reform and Nigel disagree with, we made crystal clear. When J.D. Vance, for example, talked about questioning the role the British troops played in Iraq, for example, Nigel was vociferous in condemning that. Likewise, when President Trump did the same thing. So two things can be true at the same time. Yes, it's important to maintain a relationship with whomever, by the way, is inside the White House at any given point. But it is also true that we need to stand up for Britain's interests.

1:05:06And of course, of course, Britain should use any and all means to defend the Falkland Islands. But again, let's talk about why we're in the situation that we are in. When the Tories came to power, defence spending as percentage of GDP was 2.7%. When they left, it was 2.3%. And you can draw a straight line between that and the fact that we were unable to put a destroyer into the theatre battle when it mattered. And why people laughed when you said, yeah, it would probably take years to deploy HMS Vanguard. I mean, you talk to people in the army, you talk to people in the navy, you talk to people in, you know, across the entire military apparatus, including by our intelligence services, it has been utterly hollowed out.

1:05:44And this is absolutely a uni-party issue. It was reformed. It's the last one I'm going to make. Reform of the first major party to talk about taking defence spending to 3 % and then 3.5%. That's exactly what reform did. All right. Let's have a yes-no answer from James Murray. The Chagos deal is dead. You've saved billions because you're not going to pay it to Mauritius. How many of those billions are you, as Chief Secretary to the Treasury, going to ensure going to the defence budget? That was a question with a few different parts of it. Well, it's not. Are you going to take the Chagos money that you were going to give away and put it into defence?

1:06:18Well, let me talk about... Yes or no. I realise you're picking me up now on the yes or no question, and I shouldn't have smiled earlier when you were teasing me out. We could ask it a little bit easier. Should you take the money that you are going to give away, along with the islands, paying Mauritius to take islands that we owned, which is ludicrous to most people, should you insist that some of those billions go back into defence? Look, whatever happens in terms of the Jago's Islands... Can I make this point? Can I make this point for a minute? Because we've been talking a lot about how much is being invested in defence.

1:06:56And we as a government have set out exactly how we will pay for getting to 2.6 % of GDP by April next year, and then we are committed to the ambition of 3 % in the next parliament. Now, that is really important because I think we recognise that we need to increase our investment in defence. We need to make sure we have the right defensive capabilities for the future, and actually having that ability here in the UK is really important. Now, look, there's also been some questions here about our relationship with the US, and I know that Nigel Farage referred to Trump as the boss, I think was how we referred to him.

1:07:32But our relationship with the US is one where between the two countries, it is a deep and special relationship. We work with the US day in, day out on security, on intelligence, on trade, all sorts of things. Every day of the week, there is a cooperation between our two nations and has been for many years. That does not mean that when the president says, do this, you have to say yes. It is okay when it's in our national interest and in fact it is right when it is in a national interest to say no. And I know that when the President said to the UK and other countries, join the offensive strikes on Iran, I know the Conservatives and Reform both wanted to follow him straight in there in those offensive strikes.

1:08:13It's exactly what they wanted. It's exactly what they wanted to do. That's not true. But what we said is no, because it's not in our national interest. And I was on another panel with the shadow chief secretary, the guy who shadows me, and he confirmed that on Friday night that he would have wanted Britain to follow the US in on the offensive of strikes on Iran. So that is the position of the Conservative Party, the position of reform, but it's not a national interest. And that's why Pierre said no. Thank you. We have to draw to a close with some very important questions to determine how in touch or out of touch you are with the voters.

1:08:46Now, I don't know the answer to any of these. But I'm going to start with you, James Murray. How much are six, as does free-range, large eggs? Oh, blimey. I don't know, sorry. Give us an approximation. Just have a guess. I would have guessed£20.

1:09:05How much do you think half a dozen eggs cost? Half a dozen eggs? A couple of quid? I don't know. Very good. £2.10. James Cleverley. How much is a loaf of Sainsbury's thick-sliced white bread?

1:09:24Again, just over two quid. Two quid? You get to the same shop as me. It's 75 pence. Really? Yes. I think that James might be buying homemade bread by David Cameron. Okay. And finally, Sia. How much is a Tesco's own brand two pint of semi-skinned milk? It's a bit of maths there. Two pint is about 240. It's£1.20. I think the right-wing politicians all shop in Fortnum's. Yeah. That's what's going on. That would be a four-pinter, a two-pinter. It's£1.20. £1.20. We want to end on a light note, as we so often do, Tim. I think we began that way, and it was light throughout. I enjoyed it. It was so light.

1:10:17Tony Blair had Things Can Only Get Better. Theresa May had Dancing Queen. I'd like to ask each of you which, what soundtrack would you give your esteemed leader right now? James Murray. I will survive.

1:10:49So, this is going to sound very earnest and a bit corny. But when I go running and Spotify generates a playlist, they keep doing that song, which I really like, by Heather Small, Proud. Do you remember the one from the Olympics? Oh, James Barry. That's a nice choice. That's a nice choice. Well, OK, you might be the only person in the country listening to that record and thinking of the Prime Minister. But well-batted. James Cleverley, what soundtrack best describes Kemi Badenow? I think I'm going to get, and I'm going to show my age now, I think Eye of the Tiger. That's all about, you know, getting up, back on your feet, fighting away.

1:11:31Hey, karate kid, very good. And Zia Yusuf, what describes Nigel Farage? Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps. Well, I think at the risk of naming a song and an artist, probably not on the playlist of most Telegraph readers. I'm going to go with an artist called The Game. Hates or Love It, The Underdogs on Top. Aha. There we go. All right. There we go. Wonderful. Well, that brings this Daily Tea special to a close. James Murray, James Cleverley, Zia Youssef. Thank you very much.

1:12:19Thank you.

1:12:55We'll be right back.

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