Brandie Smith

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0:27There's a great deal of excitement in Washington these days, but perhaps the greatest excitement is the arrival of two pandas from China. I had a chance recently to sit down with Brandy Smith, who oversees the National Zoo and oversees the panda program as well, to talk to her about the pandas. Now, we're in the panda house because pandas have returned to the National Zoo. Why are pandas so popular? I think I read that about 80 % of the people that come to the National Zoo come because they want to see the pandas. I mean, they're nice animals, but why are they that popular? I think there are a lot of reasons.

0:59I think, first of all, they're cute. They're adorable. People just want to see them. And the thing I love about pandas is the way that they're built, it actually, we are genetically designed to love pandas. They have these round features, the round ears, the round eyes, these cute voices. And what we ping when we see a baby is the same thing that pings when we see a panda. And so we're designed to think they're adorable. But they're also, they're rare. So I think it's a matter of having the opportunity to see them. You take the opportunity when you can. And, you know, pandas are a story of joy.

1:36They're a story of hope and of happiness and success. It's a successful program that everyone is a part of. When did you get the new pandas? So these pandas came in October of 24, so just a few months ago. And how old are they? They're both three years old. The pandas are here not just because they're adorable, but they're actually part of a breeding program that's helping to save the species. And so we wanted to get the most genetically valuable animals, and we narrowed it down to a few pairs. But I will say we sent a veterinarian to China just to check the records of the different animals, and we did ask him to pick the cutest pair.

2:15As I recall, when Richard Nixon went to China on the famous trip in the early 1970s as a gift, Mao Zedong said, here are two pandas, and they came to the National Zoo. And at that time, I think they were the only pandas in the United States. They were at that time. That was really the start of the giant panda conservation program as we know it. They were gifts to the country, and subsequent to that, China, as I understand it, began a program of lending pandas or renting pandas to zoos around the world. I thought I read that there are like 27 zoos or something like that around the world that have pandas.

2:49Is that how it works? We received the first pandas. They were a state gift. And then there was the loan program that was to other zoos. And as part of that program, there's a conservation fee that zoos pay to China, to the panda breeding centers in China. And the pandas that we have now are part of that breeding program. Was it easy to get the pandas to come back to Washington, D.C.? Did the Chinese say, we have some extra pandas, we don't know what to do with them, we're going to give them to you? Well, it was a little more difficult than that. It probably took us, it was about over the course of a year, where we had conversations with our colleagues in China.

3:23And we were able to get pandas here very quickly. I think it's a testament to the relationship we've built over decades, to the conservation success that we've had here with our pandas and our panda program. And so it was a lot of conversations, but I think we always knew in the end that we did want pandas at the National Zoo. How big is the National Zoo? How many acres do you have here? So we have two facilities. We have the zoo, which is in Washington, D.C. It's 175 acres in Rock Creek Park. and then we also have a facility called our Conservation Biology Institute and that's 3 ,200 acres and it's in Front Royal Virginia.

4:01Now when I was a little boy growing up in Baltimore we had a zoo there and it still exists but the animals always seem to be in big cages they didn't seem to be able to roam around that much. Now my understanding is that people that are in charge of zoos let animals have more freedom and more space than they used to but what about the argument that some people say it's not nice to have zoos at all because let the animals stay in the wild? Why should we have people like me gawking at them all the time? How do you respond to that? I love that question because it's asked by people who care deeply about animals.

4:32And so I'll answer in two parts. And one is the emotional part about animals in zoos. And I always, you know, I think about people who have pets, right? People get pets, most of them aren't trained to care for them. They don't know that much. They bring them to their house. They have them in their apartment, you know, go for walks every so often. but they know those animals are cared for. They know that those animals are happy, they know that they love them, and they're loved back. Now imagine that, except imagine that you have experts, hundreds of experts who are trained in the care of animals, right?

5:07People spent their entire lives caring for these animals with the best nutrition, the best veterinary medicine, you know, habitats that are scientifically designed to meet their behavioral and biological needs. And that's animals in zoos. We know they're happy. We love them and we know they're loved back. So what is, other than pandas, who are the biggest attraction or what are the biggest attraction at the National Zoo? You know, people, we call them the charismatic megafauna. People love the big animals, the pandas, elephants, lions, tigers, cheetahs. But one fact that I think is really funny, the most searched animal on our website are snakes.

5:47And so I don't know if people are searching them because they want to see them or if they're searching them because they're afraid to see them. Let's go back and talk about the pandas because they're so popular and obviously you get a lot of visitors because of that. So where do pandas come from? Why is it only in one place, as I understand it, where pandas are? You've got 200 countries in the world. Why only one country has pandas? So that's just the area. They are indigenous to kind of the cool mountain forests in China. So that's the habitat that sustains them the best. And pandas actually, they're obligate bamboo eaters.

6:22If they don't eat bamboo, they'll get sick. So they're very heavily dependent upon having the appropriate habitat. Now, originally, pandas, which were maybe a couple million years old, we think, they used to have a meat diet, as I understand it. They were carnivores. But then maybe 500 ,000 years ago, they became herbivores. So I don't know if that's easy to do with your stomach, but because they only eat vegetables or non-meat, do they have enough nutrition to get through the day? A lot of people don't realize this. Pandas are, they're taxonomically, they're carnivores, and they are bears. They are true bears.

6:56And they have evolved to take advantage of a more plentiful resource. They don't have to chase down their food. It pretty much just grows up around them as they sit there. So they've evolved special adaptations to be able to consume bamboo as quickly as possible. but what it lacks in quality, they make up for in quantity. So the pandas here at the National Zoo, we feed each panda 100 pounds of freshly cut bamboo every single day. And if you eat 100 pounds of food, which is bamboo every day, 100 pounds a day, doesn't that take a lot of energy, and doesn't that mean that they sleep a lot because they use up a lot of energy eating?

7:34They do. They're digesting, so they spend their time. I feel like a panda's life is eating, sleeping, and playing. So I also think we love pandas because they're living like our best lives. And so it's so fun to watch them because sometimes you'll see a panda just, you know, mowing through bamboo leaves. And they'll actually stop for a second. And you think it almost looks like they're taking a little mini nap as they digest their bamboo before they just keep eating more. Now, when they pick up the bamboo and you grow your own bamboo, right? You don't bring it in from China. You grow it somewhere in the National Zoo area.

8:05We actually grow. So we have the facility in Virginia, 3 ,200 acres. We do a lot of our research there. All of our labs are there for all of the conservation and science work that we do. But we also grow all of our own hay, our own alfalfa, and our bamboo as well. Now, the panda bear has, like we have five fingers. Panda bear seems to have like a sixth finger to help them pick up the bamboo. Is that an evolutionary trick or something to help them pick up bamboo? It's not really a thumb. It's a modified wrist bone that actually almost, it's a flexible wrist bone that functions almost like a thumb as they hold on.

8:41Think about, as they hold on to bamboo, because bamboo's circular. So if you watch them, it looks like they're holding on. And it's part of that evolution from being, instead of investing in being a better predator, right, and being able to chase down their meat, they invested evolutionarily in being the best bamboo eater you can imagine. Now, there's a problem that pandas have in that there's so few of them. program, it was for a long time that pandas were thought to be an endangered species. Now they're called vulnerable. But how many pandas are there in the entire world? So this is incredible because this is all due to this panda program.

9:15And this is so important. So when we started with giant pandas 50 years ago, there were fewer than 1 ,000 pandas in the world, right? We're talking in the wild and zoos, fewer than 1 ,000. And decades later, there are close to 2 ,000 pandas in the wild now. actually you think a little over 1800. There are over 700 pandas in breeding centers. So as part of this program, we have tripled the number of pandas on the planet. It's still a small number of pandas. It's a small number, but what we're also doing, and this is what I love about the panda program. People come here, they see the pandas, they're cute, it's great, but when they contribute, when they buy a stuffed panda or a t-shirt or something, they are actually funding our conservation efforts.

9:58So not only are we breeding pandas, not only are we learning more about giant pandas, but we're saving their habitat in the wild. So when this started, there were probably just 10, about 10 small little reserves where pandas could live. There are panda reserves in China, three times the size of Yellowstone. So because of this program, there are more pandas on the planet, more quality panda habitat in the wild, and pandas have gone from being endangered to being vulnerable. Now, one of the problems that pandas have and the reason there are so few is that their ability to reproduce is the most limited, it seems, or the most challenging in the entire animal world.

10:40So I think the female panda can reproduce only a short period of time, maybe one day a year or something like that. So the male has to show up at the right time, right? Yeah. And how does that work? Well, it's actually really interesting. So the males, the female has a very narrow window where she's reproductively viable. But the males go through something called rut. So it's much longer. So basically for months that could overlap multiple females' estrus, the males are basically, they're looking for a mate. So they are scent marking. They're patrolling. They're covering a large territory. And what they're really doing is they're both looking for a mate and they're advertising to females that they would be a great father to their cubs.

11:24So many VIPs, I assume, call you up and say, I'd like to come bring my grandchildren, my children. I want to come myself to see the pandas. You get a lot of that? So there are a lot of people who want to see giant pandas. And the thing I love the most is we are part of the Smithsonian. And so everyone, no matter how VIP you are, you can come here. You can see giant pandas. How can you free your team from time-consuming office tasks? Amazon Business empowers leaders to not only streamline purchasing, but better support their teams. Smart business buying tools enable buyers to find and purchase items fast so they can focus on strategy and growth.

12:00It's time to free up your teams and focus on your future. Learn more about the technology, insights, and support available at AmazonBusiness.com. Let me ask you how one becomes the head of the National Zoo. Let's talk about your background. So where did you grow up? In Indiana, Pennsylvania. It's in western Pennsylvania. Small town. I had a rural delivery address, and most of my relatives are coal miners. So when you were growing up and you were a little girl, did you play with dolls or did you play with pandas? I didn't have pandas, so stuffed animals. And, you know, our neighbors had cows, so I'd always go over and, you know, feed the cows and, you know, see my friends who lived on farms.

12:43So you told your parents you want to be a national zoo director. How did your parents know that you wanted to be, are you trained as a zoologist? So I actually, I was a young girl interested in science, you know, in the middle of nowhere in Pennsylvania. And I thought that if you wanted to be a scientist, that meant you were a doctor. And I thought that was my only career path. And I actually got my undergraduate degree is in biology. And, you know, I thought about it and I thought this isn't what I want to do. I want to work with animals. So I was about to start an internship with an ophthalmologist.

13:20and I called the Pittsburgh Zoo and I just said, I want to do what you do. Tell me, tell me how did you get this job? And because this was, you know, back in the day, the guy said, he said, actually, I'm on my way to interview for a summer intern and I'll interview you right now. And if you do well, I'll hire you. And so I got the job and I went home and I told my mother that instead of doing an internship with a doctor I was going to intern as a zookeeper. What did she say? Well, we were driving at the time, so one is she almost drove the car off the road, but the other, it was the first time I ever heard my mother swear.

13:59And she said, she's like, at least do something respectable with your life. Be a lawyer. Okay, so you get this internship and you obviously must have liked it. So then what happened? I always tell people I never made a smart career choice in my life. So I always just kind of followed my heart. And I did the internship at the zoo. The thing I love about zoos is not just that they educate and inspire people, but they are unique conservation organizations. There are species that exist on the planet today because of zoos, because we care for animals and can breathe them. Black-footed ferret, Panamadian golden frog, scimitar-horned oryx, California condors, the list goes on.

14:36And so I was really fascinated with the idea of genetically managing how we manage these species genetically so that they're saved for the wild. I got a master's degree in zoology that focused on genetic management. Then I got a job in another zoo. I did more internships. I got my PhD and eventually I ended up here. All right so you got your PhD in zoology? It's a program at University of Maryland. It's called Behavior, Ecology, Evolution and Systematics. So and then you get a job immediately thereafter at the National Zoo? Well actually I had a job. I was the head of conservation and science for an organization called the Association of Zoos and Aquariums.

15:13So we set kind of conservation goals for zoos, accredited zoos across the country. It's an office, it's an association, and I just really missed, I missed being in a zoo. I missed the animals. We create magic for people on a daily basis and I miss being part of that. How many zoos are there in the United States? So there are about 2 ,500 licensed animal exhibitors in the United States, but then there's also an accrediting program by the Association of zoos and aquariums. And I think under 250 zoos are accredited. So less than 10 % of zoos in the country are accredited. And those are the best of the best.

15:48So the most famous zoo in the United States or the biggest, I would think, leaving the National Zoo aside, is the San Diego Zoo. Is that the biggest, actually? So I do think it's the most well-known zoo. A lot of people are very familiar with that zoo. So over the years, the National Zoo is not the only zoo in the United States that's had pandas, right? And so I thought there were at 1.4, San Diego, Memphis, Atlanta, and Washington. Do they still have them now? As part of the loan program started at roughly the same time, so a lot of the pandas were kind of moving through in cohorts. And so a lot of zoos in the past two or three years, their pandas were older and returned to China.

16:25And so right now only the National Zoo and the San Diego Zoo have giant pandas. To go back and finish up on your career, So you're working at this association, and you now say, I really want to be with animals directly. So then did you apply to the National Zoo? Yeah, there was an opening for a general curator. It was more of a curator of mammals, and it was also the curator of giant pandas. And so my story actually came full circle because when I got the job here, and I was in charge of the giant pandas, my mother was so proud. Did she come to visit the pandas ever? Oh, right away. So, all right, so then you were the head of the mammal program, including the pandas.

17:04When did you become the head of the National Zoo itself, the whole head? At first, I was essentially curator of mammals and curator of giant pandas. And then after a few years, I became the head of animal care. So I saw all of the animals, the veterinarians, nutrition, records, behavior, all of the departments. And then eventually I became deputy director. And then a few years later, I became director. So if you walk around and see the pandas, do they recognize you? It is one of the saddest moments of my life. When I was curator of Giant Pandas and I was here all of the time, the pandas knew who I was.

17:40They recognized me or at least my voice and I could call their name and they would show an interest. But as director, I'm not with them every day. I'm not the bringer of food and love and happiness. So today, how many different species do you have at the National Zoo? We have about 3 ,000 animals from about 300 different species. And how many professionals do you have working here? At both locations, we've got about 400 people. And how many people come a year to the National Zoo? So just under 2 million people come every year. And we actually, we only had one year without giant pandas. And what we noticed was that our attendance actually dropped 20 % when giant pandas weren't here.

18:24And what did you do when COVID came? Nobody showed up then, right? We didn't have any visitors, but we had to keep working. So if we're responsible for the living collection, I'll actually never forget that moment because the world is closing down because of COVID. And our team gathered in our Lion and Tiger building and the offices there have this kind of bunker like feel. And we were there and we said, OK, what do we do? And everyone's concern. The concern wasn't I can't go home. The concern was what happens if I get sick and I can't take care of my animals? And so we had animal care. We had A team and B team that didn't cross.

18:59So we could always have someone who could be there to take care of the animals. Now, does China say if you have two pandas that they've rented to you and there is a baby panda, that they own the baby panda or do you own the baby panda? So they own all pandas, but this is a good thing because the majority of pandas live in China. And so, again, we're not producing pandas just because we want to, although it's wonderful. These pandas are all part of a conservation program. So if a cub was here and it grew up here, it can't breed with its parents. And so the cub returns to China so that it can be part of the breeding program.

19:38When a baby is, let's say, has some fur and can see and hear, a human can pick that baby up, right? I mean, let's say in a zoo or a controlled setting, you're allowed to pick up a panda at a small size. But is that right? We do wellness checks on the cubs soon after they're born. So we do actually get hands-on our giant pandas just to make sure they're doing fine and they're healthy and everything's okay. After a panda is what size, is it not possible for a zookeeper to actually be in the cage alone with them because they're bears and it could be dangerous? So it's actually usually when they're about a year old, they hit about a hundred pounds, and that's the time when they start to get, they're not predators, they're not going to see you as food, right?

20:22They don't see you as a threat, but even if they just do, right, they've got strong jaws, they've got sharp claws, so an animal could inadvertently hurt you even without trying. If I went into a panda, you know, place right now, like here, where the pandas are, and they just now weigh 300 pounds, would that be dangerous? It would be, and not because, again, they're not predators, so they wouldn't see you as food. You wouldn't look like a tasty treat if you walked in. But they would think, they could think that you're a toy. They could think that we're something that we gave to them just to play with.

20:56Their jaws, their bite force actually equals that of a lion or tiger. So if they wanted to play with you, they've got the claws, they've got the teeth, they've got the strength, they could do some damage. So let's talk about the panda cam for a moment. You have a camera that watches pandas 24 hours a day. I think people really enjoy watching the panda cam because they're seeing them, how we watch them. We decided we're going to do something a little bit different this year because it's not just people in the United States, but people around the world are watching the panda cam. We want to do it during the daytime, during the 12 hours during the day when people are, when the pandas are awake, when keepers are interacting with them.

21:38So what we're going to do is we'll have 12 hours with the giant pandas and then replay that 12 hours for the people on the other side of the world who want to see giant pandas. Have you thought about selling advertising on your panda camps? We are Smithsonian's National Zoo, and so we receive about 60 % of our funding from the federal government. And as such, we want to make sure that we are open and available to every single person who wants to see giant pandas and not necessarily be assailed by ads. So 60 % of your funding comes from the federal government. The other 40 % just falls out of the sky.

22:09Where does that come from? Well, we're really fortunate. You know, we were talking about the panda cam. And so Boeing sponsors our panda cams. They're corporations who help sponsor us. We have some incredibly generous donors who support us through philanthropy. And we also generate revenue. And so when people come here, they come to the zoo and they come here for free because we're Smithsonian. But when they buy a stuffed panda or a T-shirt or they eat, you know, a hamburger or a hot dog here, that money goes to support the zoo in all of our conservation work. So if somebody wants to know something about the National Zoo and you've got two or three sentences you can give them, what is the summary of the National Zoo?

22:51Why is it so great and why should somebody visit the National Zoo? National Zoo is part of Smithsonian. We are free. We are open and welcome to everyone. And when you come here, you are not just seeing the animals. You are not just having an incredible time that will stay with you and your family for the rest of your lives. You are part of our conservation success. Thanks for listening. To hear more of my interviews, you can subscribe and download my podcast on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen.

23:25Thank you.