Mike Pence

0:28I'm Carol Masser. We also have a lot of fun doing it. Bloomberg Business Week also brings you the analysis behind the headlines through conversations with our expert guests. And we are doing this all live each weekday. And then we bring you the best analysis in our daily podcast. Search for Bloomberg Business Week on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or anywhere else you listen. Check it out on your way home from work to catch up on the conversations that you miss during the business day. And on the weekend, check it out for a complete wrap-up of your business week. That's the Bloomberg Business Week daily podcast.

0:57I'm Carol Masser. And I'm Tim Stenevec. Subscribe today wherever you get your podcasts.

1:07Every American remembers where they were on January 6, 2021. But no American probably was more at the center of attention on that day than Mike Pence. I had a chance recently to sit down with him to talk about the epic events of January 6, 2021, his career as a lifelong political figure, and his current activities. You've been a governor of Indiana for 10 years, a member of Congress from Indiana, and vice president of the United States for four years. So are you thinking about possibly running again, or you've had enough elective offices? You know, I like to say I never say never. But I can tell you, David, my focus right now is really on trying to be a voice for the conservative values that have really animated my career over the last 40 years.

1:55And the foundation I created after we left Washington, D.C., called Advancing American Freedom, is really committed to those Barry Goldwater, Ronald Reagan, George Bush principles that really also guided the Trump-Pence administration of a strong defense, limited government, fiscal responsibility, traditional values. And so whatever the future holds for me, I'm going to continue to seek to be a champion for those principles that I think have always made this country strong and prosperous and free. So the organization is called Advancing American Freedom. And where is it based? It's based right here in Washington, D.C.

2:35I live in Indiana. So I'm a commuter to Washington. But But we've got a terrific and a growing team of principled conservative men and women who are putting out the kind of work that other organizations in the past provided in the city when I was in Congress and as a governor and in our administration. But there are less of those voices today. And so we've emerged, I think, as one of the leading voices for traditional conservative thought. And I'm very humbled by that, but also see a great responsibility to it. Now, one of the conservative organizations that's been very popular among conservatives in Washington for many years is the Heritage Foundation.

3:18And recently, a number of people have left the Heritage Foundation and joined your organization. Was that a surprise to you? We were very moved that they were inspired by our example and our consistent commitment to principle to come our way. But in another sense, I wasn't that surprised. I have seen a shift in the conservative movement really since President Trump's return to active politics and ultimately his successful campaign. Where some are walking away from the Republican Party's commitment to America being leader of the free world. Some are walking away to our commitment to limited government and even marginalizing the right to life.

4:02And the folks that came our way, I saw really as an endorsement of them wanting to be a part of a team that is continuing to stand on that broad, mainstream, conservative agenda that's defined the Republican Party for the better part of 70 years. Today, as we talk, two issues have arisen where I would say the Republican support is not as strong as it has been before. One of them deals with Greenland. Why do you think so many Republicans on Capitol Hill say don't get involved with trying militarily to take over Greenland? Well, David, I think you just put a fine point on it, which is what I hear objections to is the notion that we would ever use military force against a NATO ally.

4:41Denmark is a NATO ally, and Greenland is a part of their title and control, if you will, as a territory. I think there's a great case for acquiring Greenland, and I fully support the president's ultimate objective. I think there's a national security case for it. The Arctic is becoming enormously important. The ability to expand there would be very important to the United States and our security interests in the region. I expect there's also significant economic interest in terms of mineral development. I know what a student of history you are, but it was Abraham Lincoln's secretary of state who was the first one to recommend that we purchase Greenland.

5:30And so it's an idea 150 years in the making. Let's talk about another issue that seems to have divided Republicans a bit, and that's Venezuela. With the effort to take Maduro out, there are many people on Capitol Hill, including some Republicans, who think that a war powers resolution, making clear what the president's real ability to do and not do with military troops, should be clarified. Do you have any view on Venezuela? Well, when I was serving alongside President Trump, he tasked me to take the lead from time to time in South America. And the president and I were able to marshal some 60 nations around the world to recognize him as the legitimate president of Venezuela.

6:14It was one of the disappointments of our first term that Maduro survived the Trump-Pence administration. And so I commend President Trump for taking military action to bring Maduro to justice here in the United States. Our armed forces responded brilliantly. And I think now we have an opportunity to move Venezuela forward toward free and fair elections and a restoration of the kind of market principles that made Venezuela once the second most prosperous nation in our hemisphere. I fully support the president's action. If it was to go far beyond that, if there was a direct military confrontation, I think the authorization for the use of force vote in Congress would be appropriate.

7:08But I think at this point, the president has operated fully within his responsibility and authority. Another issue that has, I think, united some Republicans, maybe in opposition to some of what President Trump wants to do, and I'd just be curious if you can comment on it, is the chairman of the Federal Reserve Board. President Trump hasn't been that happy with him, and now there appears to be maybe a criminal investigation of him for cost overruns, supposedly, in the Federal Reserve building as it's being reconstructed. Are you surprised that Republicans on Capitol Hill have said they aren't going to confirm anybody until this issue, to replace J-PAL, until this issue is satisfactorily resolved?

7:45I don't think that the American people want some pristine independence and untouchable Federal Reserve by the elected president or the elected representatives of the American people. I was disappointed to see the headlines about subpoenas having been issued. If there needs to be a review of that construction project, it seems like that should happen in an orderly way. I'm not terribly surprised to see leading Republicans in the Senate express their concern about that. Let's hold the Fed accountable. The president can express his opinion. I think that new leadership at the Federal Reserve would be good for our economy and good for the country.

8:34But I was disappointed to see that development. Let's talk about what you will probably be remembered for the rest of your life. As you know, the events of January the 6th on 2021 will probably be the date that you will always be remembered for because you agreed to have a vote count and you approve the votes that came in from the states in effect saying that you had not been reelected as vice president and President Trump had not been reelected as president. And you obviously had a disagreement with President Trump over that. But was that the hardest day of your life because you had to disagree with the president and also because people were trying to take your life?

9:19David, January 6th was a tragic day. But I'll always believe by God's grace that I did my duty that day to see to the peaceful transfer of power under the Constitution of the United States.

9:35But it was a difficult day. I don't know if it was the hardest day I've ever faced. The day my dad left this earth was an awfully hard day, and that was not to be compared to those moments. But it was difficult. President Trump and I had a good working relationship for four years. I'd like to say he was not just my president. He was my friend. It was a fluid relationship. relationship, the president gave me extraordinary opportunities to champion our agenda on Capitol Hill, around the country, represent America, around the world. So the fact that we reached an impasse on my duty on January 6th was difficult, but I thought my duty was clear.

10:29In your book, So Help Me God, you talk about the fact that after a few days, after the election was over and you had the count and President Trump wasn't happy, but he wasn't going to be able to stay in office. You met with him and he didn't yell or scream or just had a very friendly conversation. Can you recount what that was like? I think it's because the president and I have gone our separate ways in the last several years. I think it comes as a surprise to people to remember that we actually parted very amicably on January 20th, 2021. But it unfolded in those days immediately after January 6th.

11:14Now, I'll be honest with you, David. You asked what my emotions were at the Capitol on January 6th. I can tell you I wasn't afraid, but I was angry. I was angry at what I saw. I was angry seeing people desecrating the seat of our government. I remember thinking, you know, not this, not here, not in America. While it was a day of tragedy because of the Capitol Hill police, who were the heroes that day, the violence was quelled, and leaders in both political parties reconvened the very same day and completed our work for the peaceful transfer of power. I remember in one of our last conversations, he still seemed very dejected and very down.

12:04And I looked at him and I told him and I said, well, you know, I'm praying for you. And when I got up to leave the meeting a little bit later, I said, you know, I guess there's probably two things that we're always going to disagree on. And he looked up faintly from where he was seated at the dining room table and said, what's that? And I said, well, I get the impression we're never going to agree on my duty on January 6th. And I said, I'm never going to stop praying for you. And he looked up with a faint smile and said, that's right, Mike, don't ever... I'm Barry Ritholtz, inviting you to join me for the Masters in Business podcast.

12:51Every week, we bring you fascinating conversations with the people who shape markets, investing, and business. CEOs, fund managers, billionaires, Nobel laureates, traders, analysts, economists, everybody that affects what's going on in the market, whether you own stocks, bonds, real estate, commodities, crypto, you really need to hear these conversations. Sometimes it's behaviorists like Dick Thaler or Bob Schiller. Sometimes it's fund managers like Peter Lynch, Bill Miller, Ray Dalio. Sometimes it's authors, Michael Lewis, author of The Big Short, and Moneyball. Regardless of the conversation, these are the folks that move markets each week.

13:36That's the Masters in Business podcast with me, Barry Ritholtz. Listen on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Change. Let's go back to the beginning of your career. You were born in Indiana? I was. What did your father and mother do? Yeah, my dad was a businessman. He ended up running a gasoline station business, about several hundred stations across southern Indiana. Self-made man, lived the American dream. My mom was a second-generation Irish-American. My dad a combat veteran. And I tell people I feel like I grew up on the footstool of the American dream. And you're growing up, you went to college where?

14:20A little college on the Ohio River in Indiana called Hanover College and then Indiana University for law school. But I always had an interest from the time I was a little boy in politics and in public service. I was deeply inspired by the life and the example of President John F. Kennedy and the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. And they still inspire me to this day. Well, after law school, you practiced law. I did, a little bit. But then you also got a radio talk show, and you became well-known for that, among other things. And you were involved in a policy institute in Indiana. And then in 1988, I think you ran for Congress.

15:05And did you win overwhelmingly? I did not. We came close, and then not so much two years later. All right. So after 88, you lost. And you said, well, what's the best thing to do? I'll run again in 1990. And you lost again. I did. So I assume at the end of that election, you said, I've had enough of politics. Well, or politics had had enough of me. I just had a feeling that that dream was gone. The dream of being the congressman from my hometown. So after a gap of 10 years from trying to be an elected official, you run in year 2000, you won. I did. So when you got to Congress, was it as good as you thought it was going to be?

15:49And was it worth that long effort to get there? It was a great privilege for me and a dream come true. I never imagined I could be governor of the state I grew up in or serve as vice president. But Congress was the dream of my youth, and I'll always consider it to have been, you know, God's grace in my life. First, that I didn't win when I first ran, because I don't think I was ready. But at age 40, after spending a lot of years thinking about what I believed, learning a little bit better how to engage people and communicate, I felt like I was able to arrive in Washington with a clear idea of the vision that I wanted to advance and the values and principles I wanted to carry there from Indiana.

16:34So after 10 years in Congress, you decided to run for governor of the state of Indiana. I did. So let's go to how you became vice president. When did you actually realize you were actually a serious candidate, and what was it like when you met him? And you had not been an early supporter of his, is that right? I had not. In fact, the president often would enjoy reminding friends that I had endorsed someone else in the Republican primary. Who did you endorse? Well, you know, as someone in the conservative movement, I felt very drawn to Ted Cruz's candidacy. I said why I was supporting Ted Cruz.

17:11But I also commended Donald Trump because it was clear to me that he was making a connection with all kinds of people across the country who had aspirations for restoring our economy and standing for values and standing tall again. But it was late June when a business associate of his in Indiana, who's a longtime friend of mine and his, called me on the phone. I was walking into the governor's residence in Indiana and said, a friend of mine would like to know if you would like to be considered for the vice presidential nomination. And I was taken aback. So when you got elected vice president, did you enjoy the vice presidency up until the very end?

18:05I never lost a sense of awe every day that my motorcade drove me up to the White House. Or when I climbed on the helicopters to fly to Andrews Air Force Base to go somewhere around the country or around the world. It was always a small town guy from southern Indiana. grandfather got on a boat stepped off onto Ellis Island dad ran gas stations and there I was on January 20th 2017 with my left hand on Ronald Reagan's Bible and my right hand in the air and took the oath of office to serve as vice president I never got over it it was a great sense of privilege as we said earlier it didn't end the way I wanted it to but But I'll always be grateful for the privilege and opportunity that President Trump and the American people gave me to serve.

18:59You've become a member of Congress, and you had a reputation for being pretty conservative, I would think it's fair to say. And you became a leader among conservatives in Congress. So were people surprised about how conservative you were, or is that what you always told people you were going to do when you got to Congress, being very, very conservative? I told people that if I ever got to Congress, my only ambition would be to do what I told people back home I'd do if I ever got there. And, you know, it ended up putting me at odds with the president of my own party and my leadership from time to time.

19:33You said, was it like what you expected when you got there? I wrote in my book that sometimes I felt a little bit like Rip Van Winkle. I felt like a guy that ran for Congress the first time before the Republican Revolution in 1994 and then was elected after it was over. When I got to Washington, D.C., I greatly admire President George W. Bush and consider him to be a friend and a great man. But his administration was proposing, from my very first days, a massive expansion of the Federal Department of Education. The Wall Street bailout eight years later would also be a point of contention between us.

20:12But what guided me through those years was I knew that I had come really to keep faith with the values and principles that the people of Indiana had elected me to advance. What did you do as vice president that you're most proud of other than the vote on January 6th, which presumably you're proud of having done that? But what did you think you accomplished in those four years before the January 6th vote? There are two things. Both of them bear upon our national security. Number one is the president tasked me with giving the first major speech changing U.S. posture toward China. The speech I gave in 2018, the president and I literally worked through it together.

20:57and it essentially I think it started the process that the Trump-Pence administration achieved which was to change the national consensus on China. It was to say after years of hoping that economic exchange would result in greater liberalization in China we essentially put a marker down and said after years of trade abuses, intellectual property theft, military provocations, human rights abuses, that those days were over. We were going to impose tariffs. We were going to demand that China comes forward. And I'm proud that that posture has been maintained, even through the Biden administration, but now been redoubled with President Trump's new term.

21:44Now, President Trump, I think it's fair to say, even President Trump would probably say this, He's a bit impulsive at times, and he likes to make decisions pretty quickly by the traditional standards of Washington, D.C. You strike me as a more deliberative type person. How did you moderate or modulate what President Trump did, or did you not try to do that? I did not try and do that. I have a great sense that the role of the vice president is to help the president be successful in the presidency that he was elected to advance. One of the reasons I think we had a very good relationship is that I read something during the transition in early 2017 that Walter Mondale had written.

22:25He said in this essay, he said, everyone that comes into the Oval Office is looking for something. They're looking for a decision and to influence a decision. He said, it can't be like that with the vice president. He said, the vice president owes the president his opinion once and in private. because I would add to that, apart from a moral or constitutional principle, what the president decides is the decision. And sometimes he'd slip and he'd say, what do you think? What do you think? Then he'd say, Mike, where are you on this? And I'd say, let me talk to you later about that. And he'd go, oh, right, right, right.

23:07Because he knew what I knew, and that was there could be no daylight between the president and the vice president. And I think it's the reason why we accomplished so much in those four years. I didn't ask you about your wife. Was it love at first sight when you saw her on your part and her part? Or how did you meet her? Well, it was on my part. And her part? She was less impressed. It took a little time. No, I saw her. She was playing a guitar up in the front of a church. I followed her out the back of the church one Sunday morning. And then I walked her out the front of the church about 18 months later.

23:45It's been 40 years together. And she is the love of my life. She's an incredible public servant in her own right and a great teacher, great mom, great grandmother. You were born and raised as a Catholic. And then at some point you decided to become what's known as a born-again Christian and a Protestant. So was that difficult to tell your mother and father that you were changing your religion? And what was their reaction? Well, first, I cherished my Catholic upbringing. Eight years of Catholic school is really still a foundation in my life. I tell people I didn't leave the church. I left religion.

24:27By the time I got to high school, I'd had some social success. And I just decided, David, that religion was a crutch. Some people needed it. I wasn't going to judge them for it, but I didn't need it. But when I got off to college, I started to meet some young men that simply talked to me about being a Christian. And they talked about having a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ. And it set me on a journey my freshman year to really begin to study the Bible and to examine what the scriptures said. And it was in the spring of 1978, sitting on a hillside at a Christian music festival.

25:05It was like I heard the words, for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whoever might believe in him might not perish but have everlasting life. I just remember my heart was broken with gratitude for what I believe was done for me on the cross. And I walked down and I committed my life to Jesus Christ and it changed my life forever. And when you talk about that fateful day in January five years ago, David, for me, the essence of that, and it's the reason it's the title of my book, is that when I took that oath of office, I believed that I was making a promise to the American people, but also it ended with a prayer.

25:48So help me God. Thanks for listening. To hear more of my interviews, you can subscribe and download my podcast on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen. Thank you.