Sam Stevenson: How Granola Won the Crowded AI Notes Market, Then Pulled Off a Bold Rebrand

18:59Andy Budd:nine months or a year it's working really well you launch it and day one millions and millions as a customer's come flowing in, I presume. No, exactly. Yeah.

19:13Sam Stevenson:Yeah, I'm really pleased with how our launch went. By happy accident, I think we ended up with a lot of investors and founder friends using the product towards the end of the closed beta period we had. It meant that on launch day, our whole marketing strategy was basically to lean on our investors and our early users to tweet about the thing we were announcing. and it worked great for us because between them they had a really big following you know it was quite a lot of like influential people in that group so we had a good amount of attention and traction like on the first on the first day and um yeah you know it's not it's it's tiny compared to like the numbers we have now but like it it uh it felt like a good we were really proud of what

19:55Andy Budd:we've done you know on the launch day the reason i sort of slightly sort of tongue-in-cheek joked about the numbers is like a lot of founders have this idea you know if you build it they will come there'll be a you know you launch and that's the end of the journey and actually often after your friends and family and your investors come in suddenly then there's a little bit of a lull and then you've got to go okay well how do we deal with that is this by building more features is it by figuring out marketing like what what was the sort of the post-launch feeling and go to market strategies did it just click and immediately out the gate or was there a lot of kind of work to kind of encourage people to give your product a try when they were already probably using like you know one of your many competitors yeah for us uh it honestly like we've

20:39Sam Stevenson:never had like explosive moments but it has been continually strong kind of since day one with hindsight this was like a cost us a few months um in building the rest of the company out like we kind of we were sitting around kind of waiting for that slump to come and not wanting to like count our chickens but the product did just keep spreading by word of mouth organically um and i I think because of that, we kind of realized that we had product market fit like several months later than we should have done. But yeah, no, it did just keep going up and to the right, which was kind of nuts to experience.

21:10Andy Budd:I was going to ask you about that. I mean, obviously the first few months or years even, like a lot of startups expect to get product market fit in six months. And often it takes them a year or two. It sounds like you were pretty quick. Like what was the first inkling that you had? Okay, we're really onto something here.

21:27Sam Stevenson:Yeah, I'll say actually, I think I always talk about our launch date as like a big thing. But I think in terms of like the journey of the products, I would argue that like products been on a continual journey since day one. And I think the launch date was just the day that we like allowed anyone to come and start using it. And so I think like, I think we were very like deliberate about was was, we wanted to know that the thing worked. And that it was retentive and people liked it before we open the floodgates to everybody else. So like, honestly, with hindsight, I would say maybe we even had product market fit before we launched because the signal for us that we should launch was that we had 100 people coming back day in, day out, using the thing, heavily relying on it.

22:08Sam Stevenson:And, you know, it's a tiny group of users, but like all of the behaviors and the signs were there that it was going to work at a bigger scale.

22:15Andy Budd:I think you're probably right. I mean, again, the fact that all your investors were using it, I mean, investors can be incredibly critical and often they won't even use the products that they've invested in. So the fact that they were probably using it for meetings and pitches, I think you're probably right that you're one of the few companies that probably had product market fit out of the gate. And it sounds like the growth has been sort of relatively organic rather than lots of kind of fits and starts. I'm curious in terms of product decisions. You know, when I've used Granola, I've looked at the product and thought, this is really cool.

22:46Andy Budd:But like, wouldn't it be even cooler if it did the notes live? And you talked about that recently. you said that this was actually something that you started with and then you roll back I just wondered if you could explain that kind of story and and why you made that decision to to to not

23:01Sam Stevenson:have live updating yeah this was um uh we were obsessed with this idea for like the first six months probably uh it just it felt obvious to us at the time that like um AI is with you in the meeting AI should be like writing the notes for you in real time during the meeting you know it feels like so sci-fi and kind of obvious. So all of the first six months for us were pursuing different interfaces for real time, taking notes during the meeting. We tried a GitHub Copilot style tab complete thing, where you'd type a note, hit tab, get it to fill out the rest of the note. We tried one where the whole interface was just you'd match the space bar whenever anything interesting gets said.

23:46we tried things in between that we tried like you write on one side of the screen and the ai

23:54Sam Stevenson:interprets what you're writing on the other side of the screen um yeah tried lots of these things and uh uh really really wanted it to work and and i think like in the end there was just we went through enough cycles of it not working and like picking apart why it wasn't working to kind of comes to the conclusion that there's kind of a fundamental problem where like uh we want our tool to help you be more present in the meeting and spend more time making eye contact with the person you're talking to and understanding what they're saying and when you write notes that's fine because your fingers can can type while your eyes are doing something else but as soon as the ai is writing for you you can't help but like check its work you know and make sure that it's getting the right thing and uh and that would just it was just incredibly distracting like however we sliced it to to be kind of having to evaluate what this lm was doing on the side of

24:42Andy Budd:your screen all the time i think you're absolutely right i think you know when i thought about it like initially my desire was to want to have live note taking but if you're in a one-to-one meeting or group meeting and this thing is constantly doing its magic it's going to be pulling you out of the meeting constantly particularly if it's not quite getting things right or i guess also if you're wanting to annotate those notes like then things are jumping around and so it's probably quite brave to take a feature which was one of the early driving features and go no actually we should pull this out or we should we realize that this is not the right solution so you know kudos to you one of the other things I'm kind of curious about is the name granola I'm just wondering like if you'd been called like chatty notes or note taker pro do you think it would have been as successful or just is there something about the name that kind of actually has really helped with the branding and positioning I think the name has been great for us yeah yeah Yeah, it's a pure happy accident.

25:38Sam Stevenson:It was like a placeholder name that we threw in at the beginning with like no thought whatsoever. Granola the product is a few things, right? It's like if we do it well, it's like a companion that's with you throughout your whole day. And so it needs to feel like comfortable to be in and like a nice thing that's on your side. It also deals with incredibly sensitive data. and in ideal world you don't want the user to be thinking about like the fact that there's like scarily sensitive data in there but you do want the user to feel like they can trust it and that that it's secure and all of those things and so like um yeah i think the name the kind of like light-hearted but positive you know playful but not too playful name is like uh has been really

26:23Andy Budd:good for us yeah yeah it's it's nice it's friendly it's approachable it's memorable it's not trying to be clever I see so many people that are trying to create names that have some kind of deep meaning with the products that oh we're gonna you know we're gonna pick a name that actually in in kind of you know um another language means something that's related and I think I think granola is just kind of it's just it's really simple it's really really memorable so yeah I think that's I would I would like to think that's a big part of its uh approachability you've recently had a redesign as well how's that been i mean that must be quite scary going a product that's going so well and everyone's really loving it suddenly deciding we're gonna change a bunch of things like hitting that kind of launch button that must have been terrifying you know risking losing a whole bunch of people we've all seen these kind of big redesigns i remember when delivery redesigned and people were up in arms like well i'm never going to use the product again and I miss the kangaroo logo.

27:21Andy Budd:So how's that been?

27:23Sam Stevenson:Yeah, we pushed the button on Monday. It's like we're recording this on Thursday. It's been a hell of a few days since then. Like by the time we pushed the button to do the rebrand, I think I was like in it and convinced it was a good idea. And, you know, like I kind of been through the mental journey already. So I'm sufficiently like convinced that this is the right thing to do, that most of the criticism has bounced off in the last few days, which is good. I think I would have drowned in it otherwise. But yeah, it was a real dilemma. I really like, I guess I dragged my feet with this for a long time on like whether to do it and how to approach the brand and stuff like that.

28:00Because I think everything we have on the brand, like we had on the brand before was kind of like thrown together by me and a few prints, you know, when we needed a website or an app icon or whatever.

28:14Sam Stevenson:and um uh you know there's like basic thought gone into it but not nothing nothing groundbreaking and it definitely wasn't like a fleshed out system and i think as we've as we've tried to do more on the marketing front and the storytelling we have more surface area to express the brand we don't have the tools to be able to like make granola show up in a way that feels granulary in all of the different places so yeah like um i guess a few months ago the dilemma was like we definitely need to do something is it like we take what we have and we just we just work internally on fleshing it out a bit into more of a system um or do we take an opportunity to do a full pass and think about it from first principles and yeah i just i don't know i felt like um the the hard part was that like the granola brand is really loved and and i like i think we we knew that before the rebound but i think we really know it now and like uh uh and i i think a lot of that love is like it comes from the product experience how granola feels to use um and maybe from what you see of us as a company and i think the old visuals like somewhat supported that but i don't think they would they were like really pulling their weight you know it's not like if you just look objectively at what we had before it looked very generic and like any other sas company um so yeah i just felt like we could do we could do much better and there was going to be a cost to like pulling the rug from everybody but uh i ultimately feel like we we could get to something that was much more ownable and we could have a lot more fun with and like be much more expressive with um and uh that felt worth it i think it will be worth it in the long run

29:49Andy Budd:this is i think i think rebrands are really tricky but also really important i think a lot of the time people don't understand the purpose of a rebrand you know sometimes they just think it feels a little bit kind of ad hoc or almost like kind of like repainting your house when you get bored of it but for a lot of the time a rebrand happens because somehow the the brand is no longer pulling its weight as you said it's no it doesn't have the ability to project in different directions it's limiting the creative in marketing it's it's holding the kind of the the website back it's holding the product back it doesn't have that flexibility and a big part of a rebrand is creating a a system a language that gives you a lot more options to kind of play with and so it sounds like that was kind of one of the main reasons that you went through the route brand it wasn't just a whim it was a it was a a strategic decision to give you more opportunity to kind of

30:40Sam Stevenson:explore different areas totally totally yeah yeah we like um i think i think one of the main tipping points for me was like um we we hired our first marketers on the team and and so wanted to start doing things as simple as like instagram ads or whatever and suddenly you got this question of like shit what do we put on the ad what are the words on the ad and what does it look like and and so much of what we like the initial stuff we have has come from me and so i feel like if i sit down and come up with stuff i can i can do an okay job at coming up with the things because it all came from me in the first place um but like we need to get to a place where you can like give give a really smart really creative person a high level direction and then let them go wild and create really cool stuff like from that brief.

31:31Sam Stevenson:And we didn't have that, you know, we didn't have like the core like ideas and the principles that we all agree we stand behind so that like smart people can go and be free to go make up good stuff from that.

31:46Andy Budd:I don't know the sort of full story of the rebrand because like you said, it's really fresh. Obviously, I guess you've gone through a few more rounds of investment. You've got some money in the bank now. Were you tempted to fly over to New York and get pentagram to do the you know the big whole thing or like find the kind of the latest

32:02Sam Stevenson:kind of coolest kind of brand designer yeah yeah i mean i mean we we we did a version of that we uh we um we worked with ragged edge who were uh all of the you know we were gonna like polled around the office among all the designers on like who we respected the most and now we're basically like top of everybody's list and uh they also were heavy users with the products like before we knew them as um personally so they felt like a really good fit and we did we did debate a lot like should we do this internally you know there's a spectrum from like fully doing it ourselves to like getting a freelancer to come be in the building with us and work on it together to like working with an agency externally and um i just it just felt like we have such an opportunity to have to be like a really iconic well-loved brand and i don't trust that if we did this internally we would put enough resources behind it to do it justice you know and and so like uh yeah working with an agency was like the way to get a group of 10 really really great you know designers copywriters whatever to think about it for a few months and um yeah i think we were

33:06Andy Budd:better than core it i mean i coming from a you know my previous history is an agency background and i do understand the value that agencies can bring having someone come in with an external perspective who can kind of take you on a journey and i think there is a lot of difference between designing interfaces and designing brand architectures that are work and expandable um it sounds like you had a really positive experience with ragged edge so if you were if if another founder watching this was looking to go down a rebrand you'd um you'd point them

33:32Sam Stevenson:in their direction i presume i would big time yeah yeah yeah yeah i did like the the hardest bit was like the the first the first month or something we've like lived and breathed what we think granola is for like years you know and so like uh getting on the same page about what the principles are we feel good about standing behind um was was tough i don't think that was right i just thought i think that's just like uh it's a hard thing to get one group of people to like believe the same things as another group of people and um yeah i like once once we kind of got to that point then everything flowed pretty easily from there and i think the stuff they did was

34:10Andy Budd:phenomenal so yeah so i'm curious so you know where are you now in terms of like the size and scale of the company so it started with the two of you you hired an engineer i assume there was kind of like relatively steady growth are you are you now setting on a team of 100 200 or are you still kind of a small tight group of people we crossed 50 um a couple weeks ago so we're like

34:35Sam Stevenson:53 something like that now i think okay yeah so that's a really nice size you haven't kind of you

34:40Andy Budd:know i think 50 still feels like you're your tribe your crew um but presumably over the next couple of years that is going to change and you are going to be you know i wouldn't be surprised if we speak this time next year you'll be a you know maybe 100 200 people so how has that been for you going from just you and a co-founder to now managing a whole ton of team of people and Like, how are you dividing up responsibilities?

35:05Sam Stevenson:It's been a journey. I guess for me personally, it's been, I don't know, it feels like an incredibly steep learning curve where I'm like slightly behind where I need to be all of the time, you know? Before this, I've only ever been an IC designer. I think I've never really worked on a team bigger than 10 people before. I never hired anybody. So, you know, so much of this has been totally new to me. I'm fortunate that Chris, my co-founder, you know, has run a team before. we've we like hired like a vast second engineer and and now cto um has grown teams before so like uh i've got to learn from really great you know from people who've been there before kind of at all the stages which is great but yeah it's like a constant uh you have to constantly reassess like what what like what does my job need to be now you know because like it won't be the same as what it was a few months ago.

35:56Sam Stevenson:And my way of doing that so far is to like, is to like, feel on top of things. And then slowly and slowly, I feel more and more like I'm drowning. And then at some point, I reach a breaking point. And I'm like, I've got to like, stop and figure out like, why is this not working? And usually, it's because I'm trying to do too many jobs, you know, I'm trying to be like a designer and a salesperson and a recruiter and a people manager. And the time has come where I need to give away a few of those jobs and then uh yeah and then the cycle

36:25Andy Budd:repeats I mean it's a really common thing I mean again as you're growing as a founder you start by having to do loads of things because you don't have the time the budget the resources to have dedicated people and and you know often the founders become blockers they become kind of that bottleneck but eventually when you break through if you're going fast enough you can hire that person who is looking after your HR you can hire that person that is maybe doing more of the operational side of things you can hire that person is now a product manager who you know you're still giving input to the product but now you've got someone doing the admin and kind of like you know hoping to make your life easier but it's really really tough and I think you know going from a space where you know everything came from you to having a now a team full of people it does require quite a lot of change I think that's one of the most challenging things like I think a lot of founders worry about whether their company is going to be a success but when it becomes a success you've got to worry about like how are you going to be able to scale and keep scaling and keep changing and I think you are probably in a space where every four or five months you're actually doing a fundamentally different job to what you're doing before and it sounds like you're keeping up but it can it can be stressful have you have you got any kind of tips or strategies or recommendations for other founders about how you kind of stay on top of stuff I don't know that

37:42Sam Stevenson:I'm a great role model to look at. I do think things I wish I'd done earlier was bring on team members outside of product engineering design. The folks in operations that we brought in have made such a difference. They take a thing that we were doing extremely badly and they do it well and they also just free up so much of our time that it's just been a great thing every time someone's come in to help with that stuff.

38:13Andy Budd:What you said there, I think is really important. Like I meet so many founders, I think particularly it's areas they don't like doing. Like if you're a product or design founder, often sales and marketing or operations and HR aren't the thing that you love. And so you wanna be spending more of the time doing the stuff you're really good at. And so it's really tempting to like, well, let's just hire a whole bunch of people around that. However, until I think you've done that job yourself, It's really hard to hire the right person because if you don't fully understand the job, you just give it over to somebody wholesale.

38:45Andy Budd:And quite often I find that that first sales hire, that first marketing hire, that first product leadership hire often doesn't work out because you haven't figured it out yourself. And I think a lot of the time as a founder, you need to get it to that kind of messy 80%. And once it's there, you can hand that thing over to somebody else, particularly with sales. I think, you know, if you're not doing founderly sales, if you're a B2B company, like expecting someone just to come in and sell for you when you haven't kind of built that playbook. And so it sounds like you're doing the right thing. And I'd weirdly argue that you are a good role model because like you're figuring this stuff out as you go along.

39:22Andy Budd:But it sounds like you're making the right decisions. And when you're making wrong decisions, because no one's perfect, I'm sure there's been a bunch of wrong decisions, a bunch of wrong hires. but it sounds like you're flexible enough to realize that and bounce back. One of the things I was going to say, because I meet a lot of founders who, they really miss the early days. They really miss the days when there was like just 10 people in a room. And so they try and hold on to that for much longer than is practicable. And often the rest of the organization breaks because at some point you can't run a 50-person company with a 10-person mindset.

39:54Andy Budd:You definitely can't run a 100-person company. and it sounds like you're you've been willing to kind of make those make those leaps so kudos to

40:01Sam Stevenson:you thank you yeah honestly I uh yeah I when we were tiny I dreaded being the idea of being 50 was like oh geez I don't know if I ever want to go there you know and uh um and when you're 200

40:14Andy Budd:you'll be like I can't imagine being a thousand and when you're a thousand you'll be like I can't

40:18Sam Stevenson:imagine being 5 ,000 yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah but uh we've been lucky to find really really great people who like are like just really fun to be around but also incredibly great at what they do and so like um by and large when we hire people it's we're hiring people that are better than us and so like i feel like the quality of what we're able to do goes up when we you know as the team's grown it's just it's just like rather than everything having to go through chris and i at the very beginning it's like now there's like five amazing things going on at any given time which is it's like something to behold i mean yeah in my previous company i always used to say

40:51Andy Budd:that I'd always hired people better than me, which made me the worst person in the company pretty much because everyone else that hired him later was always doing a better job.

41:00Sam Stevenson:The other person who sees across everything, you know?

41:03Andy Budd:Which is really helpful because it's kind of like nobody expects you in this day and age to know everything. I think this is kind of this myth that the founder has every detail under control. But what you do is you have the high level view. You're standing on the shoulder of other people in a positive way, but you're able to kind of understand how these different things fit together and you're often a coordinating factor so um so I think it's a it's a it's a great attitude do you have do you have other people in your corner do you have do you have a coach do you have a mentor their founders you look up to like how active are your your investors in terms of like helping you through these these challenges because obviously there's a lot of people that have kind of been through this process before and so I think a lot of founders often feel that they're quite alone and so it's important to have that network around

41:48Sam Stevenson:you yeah uh i could probably do more of this i like um our investors are great mike from light speed and abil from spark are both like uh we're really close with them we talk with them a lot um anytime we have any kind of big strategic question they're usually the first people we go to um and you know they they they've both been founders and they've also you know they invest in

42:07Andy Budd:a lot of companies like us and so they can pattern match with across those and then and then i think

42:11Sam Stevenson:i think which i probably under invested in which i found really helpful is like it's just having founder friends um ideally founder friends who are like a couple years ahead of you or like maybe not too far ahead but like you know they they went through the pain that you're going through like like a year ago or something like that um uh i don't know when we were thinking about starting to hire for sales and like should we do that in the uk should we do that in the us and if the us should be san francisco new york and i i had breakfast with the um uh incident io founders who'd been through the similar dilemma like six months ago or something like that and and um and just hearing through their thought process was super helpful there and you know there aren't there aren't like many people who in the world who have to grapple with these problems and so like finding the right people for you and then being close to them I think really

43:00Andy Budd:really helps I think you're right and I also kind of like have this sort of belief that the half life of information is quite short and so you know a lot of VCs you know they might have been founders 10 years ago but the amount of relevant knowledge like the the landscape has changed so much that actually there's probably very little that is the same and go to market in engineering whatever but if you're talking to someone that's a year ahead of you they're still kind of the stuff that they're tackling is incredibly relevant and things have only shifted a little bit so i think having a really good network of other founders is is hugely important um i'm kind of curious so two things like obviously you're you're a founder and you're a designer from a designer's perspective if there was another young designer listening to this and they're like owing and owing about like whether they should kind of quit their job and start their own kind of startup like do you have any sort of advice or thoughts like of like whether you know whether designers make particularly good founders and whether they should consider going down that

43:56Sam Stevenson:route yeah good good question i mean this will depend on the kind of company you're interested in but for a lot of companies and definitely like granola the the whole game at the beginning is building something great that people really want to use and um a lot of design is like is like understanding a user's problem and then figuring out the shape of the thing to fit that problem and so like i think a lot of the initial process of of building a company is like is the design process you know like the two are the same basically we're also at this beautiful time where like designers can build stuff without having to learn too much extra too many extra things so i think it's like the there's never been a better of time to be a designer if you want to start something.

44:35Sam Stevenson:A thing I found about building granola that I haven't encountered to such a degree before in all my other design roles was that you really feel like there's nowhere to hide building a product from scratch. If nobody likes the thing that you're building, it's kind of brutal. They don't use it. The feedback loop is like incredibly intense and and and um and powerful and uh i've in previous jobs you know where i've been a designer on a more established team you're kind you're a little bit insulated from that like you don't feel the pain internally of your thing not working so well um and so i i love that about building a company is like that that i feel the the friction of the real world and i like to get the you know the work i produce is like really tested by reality and you know if it's good it works and if it's not good that I very quickly learn about it but I also think that's kind of a tough it's tough thing to have to contend with you know when you're used to being a bit more insulated in the design team I mean I think you're absolutely right about the

45:38Andy Budd:value design can bring designers are really great understanding user needs the empathy the kind of like the ability to sort of put yourself in their shoes I think you know these days with so many competing products around like often the product that has a better user experience is the one that people fall in love with um there are all also other ways of of being successful you know there are plenty of products that are much better that wither on the vine because their distribution or their sales or whatever hasn't worked but um i think really leaning into building an amazing experience is really positive but also like at the same time i think you know being a designer you can obsess over things that aren't that important or there is a risk that you know So, you know, we can be a little bit kind of quite dogmatic around like, well, this is absolutely the right thing to do for the user.

46:26Andy Budd:And I'm kind of wondering, like, are there particular things being a founder that you've had to go a different route that you might have gone like two or three years ago if you were working for another founder, you were a designer? Like, have you advocated for things in the past that you're like, oh, actually, I can see why that doesn't work, you know, and because I've now got my business head on?

46:45Sam Stevenson:Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's no way I could have, like, Grinola would be here without Chris. And, like, on the product building side, I think Chris brings, like, he's incredibly good at keeping us honest to, like, what's the actual problem the person has and, like, are we really solving it? Which for us, you know, is, like, at the beginning, it was just, is the set of notes at the end of the meeting actually useful for the person? And that was more of a, like, prompting, like, the solution to that was good prompting. more than it was where the pixels were on the screen you know and uh and of course my brain is programmed to go and fuss over the pixels and and uh it needs still honestly needs like constant dragging out of that into into thinking about like the real problem and you know um yeah i think i think that's i don't know i wouldn't be here without like that that force

47:40Andy Budd:that keeping me honest i mean i think a pairing of someone that's a bit more kind of business focus with someone that's a bit more user focused keeps everyone kind of balanced and sort of working well together so that sounds like a really really good pairing um and I think having a having a good coat like being a founder can be quite tough it can be quite lonely you know I end up working with a lot of like solo founders and like that could be quite tough and so it's really good that you found someone that can be a bit of your you know ying to your yang or however it works um You just touched on something earlier.

48:14Andy Budd:I'm just kind of wondering, how much has AI and prompting found its way into your design and engineering process? Are all of your designers now prompting new features, or is it still a bit more traditional? Figma is the main tool. How are your product managers dealing with this? Like, obviously, you know, I spoke to Des at Intercom recently, and they've gone full in on the idea of like AI designers, designers who really understand the materiality and have a whole range of tools that are outside of Figma. So I'm just curious your take.

48:46Sam Stevenson:Yeah, probably similar. Like, I guess a third of my time is still design. And like of that, 70 % is in cursor or claw code and 30 % is in Figma, maybe. And I think, yeah, it's fairly true of the other designers, too, actually. It depends on the problem and what you use different tools for different jobs. Tanya, one of our designers at the moment, is working on a feature and basically entirely in code. She's not touching the code, but in a prototype that she's built and is trying out variations of with clog code and cursor and stuff. But then equally, Ru, one of our other designers, is working on stuff where it's a more complex system design problem.

49:26Sam Stevenson:And so actually seeing it all mapped out on a canvas and figuring out how the pieces fit together is most of the problem. and the small interaction details don't matter so much. So yeah, I think it's just like we have a bunch more tools at our disposal now. And I think for me, they're like coming up with perfect mocks in Figma is like, is a waste most of the time now. I use Figma the way I would use a whiteboard, just slightly higher fidelity. And then like, and then as soon as you go from like the expansion part of the design process or whatever, and you get into the contraction part, that contraction part is all code, like for me now.

50:00Andy Budd:And it makes sense considering where, you know, where Granola started as a home-coded sort of product. So, look, thank you so much. It's been really nice chatting to you. If people want to sort of follow you, if people want to kind of follow your founder journey, where's the best way people can kind of keep tabs on you?

50:18Sam Stevenson:Yeah, well, I use Granola to start with. And we have like a beta channel. You can turn that on and join our community and you'll kind of be abreast of the new stuff there. And then I don't really have personal channels. I don't know. You could follow me on LinkedIn, I guess, but all of my time and effort is put into Granola. And so whatever we're coming out with next is the thing to be following along.

50:43Andy Budd:Brilliant. Well, I mean, that's great to hear. You're so focused on Granola. You're not kind of spending all your time on social. You're kind of like you're pushing the company forward. So it's been an absolute delight chatting to you. Thank you so much for the time.

50:56Sam Stevenson:Likewise, Andy. This was really fun. Yeah. Thanks a lot. Brilliant.

50:58Andy Budd:And to everyone who's been listening, thank you so much for tuning in to The Design VC. If you enjoyed the episode, please do subscribe, leave a review, share it with someone you think might find it really interesting, particularly anyone that's interested in the intersection of design, startups and venture. And I've been Andy Budden. I'll see you next time.