Brain Rot Emergency: These Internal Documents Prove They’re Controlling You!

24:10That at least will get rid of this, the quick swiping, the dopamine stuff. So I would say that for kids, yes, like, you know, not engaging at whatsoever. But for someone, you know, my approach is a little bit different for someone who's like in their 30s or in their 40s. And the way I would kind of frame that is instead of renouncing, you know, saying I'm going to get it off my device and I'm going to check on a desktop, which is great, there's little kind of tweaks that we could do. Because my approach is to foster that sense of empowerment in someone to help them make positive change. And so one strategy that you could use if you are saying there's no way I'm getting rid of my – I'm not deleting these after my phone, right?

24:55By the way, I practice what I preach and I really don't engage in technology to the best of my ability. But one thing that you could do is grayscale your phone. And so especially at night, like it's 9 p.m., like we talked about, revenge, bedtime, procrastination. You know that you're going to do it. You're going to sit down or you're going to scroll and before you know it, it's 2 a.m. Instead, grayscale your phone. This simple switch. You can toggle it. I have my phone set to grayscale, which simply means that you're getting rid of your color, making it black and white. And so when it is grayscaled, then you, you know, it doesn't have that same addictive quality to it.

25:30It's like going through a grocery store. A marketing executive described it this way to me. Going through a grocery store instead of the technicolor junk food cereal, it's just black and white. So you have a less, there's a greater sense of compulsion to continue checking. So that's like one strategy you could use. And the other is to set some boundaries. So geographical boundaries, keep your phone out of your arm's reach. If you're at a desk, if you're a student, not right next to you because we know there's this phenomenon of brain drain. So it's not just that when you're using your phone, it can have a potential distraction, but also just having it close by.

26:06It's called brain drain. And so putting it in a desk drawer, keeping it in another part of the home if you are working, keeping it far away from you. And so you kind of can override that primal urtus scroll that your prefrontal cortex take hold again. And so there's all these small tweaks that you can do, you think now. Yes, there are all these small tweaks you can do, and they will make the heroin a little bit less addictive. And yeah, you should try those. But what I can say after teaching this course for many years is that people who try that, they say, yeah, you know, it helped. It helped.

26:37But you only really get the transformation when you quit social media. That, you get your life back. You get hours a day back. So I would urge everyone to just think, you know, you only get one childhood, you only get one young adulthood. And if you're going to spend it scrolling, what do you have to show for it at the end? And when you get people to reflect on, well, how much value do you really get from watching the short videos? How would your life be different if you knocked it out? Once they realized that their motives for being on it were either just to keep up or because that's what everyone else is doing, Or as you said, I deserve it because I'm tired.

27:14Well, why are you tired? It's in part because your attention was fragmented all day long. So you only really get the transformations when you get a real change in what you're consuming. Although, of course, yes, setting it to grace would be helpful, but it's not going to be transformative for most people, I believe. And then, you know, based on the science, there's certain elements like when we think about what is it about the phone that is creating that sense of compulsion. Jonathan is right. So what is it about the phone? It's not just the phone, you know, you're scrolling, you're engaging. There are two studies that were really interesting.

27:46One, people got off of, they continued to use their devices. They had no internet. So it's like, you know, I tried this experiment myself in December. I was out of the country. And so I just let my, you know, I didn't plug into Wi-Fi. And I found, you know, markedly, a marked change in my mood, my sleep. And I'm not even, you know, 20 years old on TikTok. And it was so different. And so this study found that just two weeks of continuing to use your device, but just not having internet access, improved your attention, well-being, and mental health. And in this population, it was all adults. It wasn't kids.

28:23It was all adults. Found that 91 % of people had an improvement in at least one of these metrics. And then another study, more recently, just one week of not engaging in social media, digital detox, they called it, did the same thing. Better, less anxiety, less depression, decreased insomnia. But my feeling is that there is this new kind of meme, right? Like the millennial urge to delete my internet presence and live off the grid. There is certainly utility to that. And I salute anyone who wants to engage in that analog life more and more. but from my from where I sit I feel like we do need to have healthier boundaries and engage more responsibly it also builds up that muscle and it can help you know takes eight weeks to do neuroplasticity when you're building new brain circuits it takes eight weeks falling off getting back up is part of habit formation so if you're going to make any of these changes understand that It takes some time.

29:25But I don't know if it is possible for me or for others to say fully, I'm going to delete off of my phone. But I love that. So I'd like to go a little further with this. So the way you put it, yes, there's all these things that we could do. We should have boundaries. But all of that puts the responsibility on us. Agreed. And that's where we are with junk food. With junk food, we're like, okay, it's out there. We have to learn self-control. We have to teach self-control to our kids. Okay, that's the way it is in this country. But the digital devices, I think, are very, very different. So imagine if we sent our kids out into the world, and it wasn't just that there was junk food in all the stores.

30:05It was that everything was made of junk food. You know, door handles, you can eat it, it's chocolate. But it's not just that the world's made of junk food. They actually can tell, they're able to tell what you're craving at the moment, and maybe you're more in the mood for salt. So now it's all potato chips or pretzels. If the world is designed by companies to always give you the thing that will most grab your unconscious desires, will affect the amygdala, the reward centers, that's on them. That's not our fault. My general rule as a social psychologist is if a few people are doing something bad or self-destructive, well, you know, they should learn some self-control or that's something about them.

30:46But when 90 or 95 percent of people are doing something self-destructive, that's because of the companies that put us in an environment that encourages addiction. So I just want to read a quote. We have so much good stuff coming out from Meta, from all the whistleblowers. Now all the court cases are beginning in Los Angeles. Finally, if the first time, Meta's going to face a jury with all the parents who've lost kids. So here is – here's a chat. So we have a lot of internal documents that came out from the attorneys general that are suing Meta. So while they're talking about the results of some of their internal research, one of them says, oh my gosh, y 'all, Instagram is a drug.

31:22We're basically pushers. We're causing reward deficit disorder because people are binging on Instagram so much they can't feel reward anymore, which is something Anna Lemke said. Like the reward tolerance is so high. And then he says, I know Adam, meaning Adam Osseri, I know Adam doesn't want to hear it. He freaked out when I talked about dopamine in my teen fundamentals leads review. But it is undeniable. It's biological and psychological. Top-down directives drive it all towards making sure people keep coming back for more. This is not on us. They designed it to be addictive. They've done research to make it maximally addictive.

32:00They push it on children. They tried to get Instagram kids for even littler kids. They know what they're doing. They've done the research. My team, we put together, we found references to 31 internal studies that Meta did. They've done a lot of research finding harm. They bury it, but you can find it at metasinternalresearch.org. We put it all online. You can read these quotes. So yes, we should exert more self-control, but basically we're being pushed addictive substances, addictive apps, and it's messing us all up. I agree wholeheartedly that it is so destructive. And you feel like even with people in their 40s and 50s, and if anyone can do it, it's you, Jonathan.

32:42Seriously, I would love to see it. You know, we also know based on the data that these things quite, they reshape our brain, rewire our brain through neuroplasticity, and also change our brain waves. So patterns. So we talked about the amygdala and the prefrontal cortex, right? But they also change brain waves. And so when you look at studies and the data, it has the reward pathway in dopamine. And these brain patterns, the brain waves mimic addictive behaviors. And, you know, there's certain features, right? Like when you do swipe down to refresh, it's the slot machine. It was modeled directly after the slot machine.

33:19Or autoplay or, you know, the algorithm, that infinite scroll. One really interesting kind of like breaking news, which you guys may have already heard of. it's like three days ago, the European Union Commission found TikTok to be in breach of the Digital Services Act. And what it said was that it is addictive. It, you know, creates compulsion and gets people into this autopilot mode. So they have difficulty disengaging. And personally, I am moving away from social media and really leaning into analog life. But I think with the way the world, you know, it's one of our only ways to connect, right?

34:00Meaning I don't mean connect deeply. I don't mean connect like in a deep way, but be informed to know what's going on in the world, et cetera. I suspect that because we've spent so long criticizing meta over the last 10 years, because the biggest in any category takes all the heat. So open AI is taking it now. And what this often does is it provides cover for other people to go even more extreme with that behavior while like meditate the heat and i actually think this is how tiktok came to be tiktok had basically they originally started as musically became tiktok they had they were taking they were taking no heat um so they they created an algorithm which is the equivalent of like crack cocaine the reason why i have a tiktok account i don't have the app on my phone i have never had the app on my phone i don't i don't was because i i noticed that the view variance on tiktok was like no other platform.

34:54What I mean by that is you can have a million followers on TikTok and you can get 10 ,000 views or you can get 10 million views. In the 15 years that I've been on social media, building social media businesses, I'd never seen this before. And what it indicated to me is that the algorithm was being an even more aggressive sorting hat or retention machine. What to push up, what to push down. And so like when I started in social media in 2014, if I had a million followers, I might get a million views or maybe 800 ,000. I did some research the other day on all of our social channels over time. And what we're seeing is the variance in the amount of views we can get is increasing, which means the algorithm is doing more work to say, show everyone this.

35:35I don't care if the person that posted it is called Jenny and has seven followers and show no one this. I don't care if it's Steven who has a million followers or whatever. And I realized that TikTok was way ahead of everybody here. And that's why they are the most addictive, the fastest growing platform. I say all this to say that even if Meta shut down tomorrow, someone else would seize the opportunity if there isn't sort of policy, I guess, in place. That's right. That would just be whack-a-mole, right? Yeah. No, that's right. And so, you know, in terms of who's done the damage to kids, Meta is the big fish via Instagram.

36:11And they're also the main player in terms of spending a huge amount of money to lobby Congress and block laws. They're also the main player in buying up civil society organizations, giving money to organizations, the national PTA, all sorts of organizations. They get to then give a message on digital citizenship or digital health. So Meta really is the major driver. Meta is the tobacco industry here trying to change the dialogue. But in terms of the products, Snapchat is probably more deadly in terms of the actual number of deaths per user because Snapchat is not making you depressed by social comparison as much.

36:46Snapchat is introducing you to all kinds of people. And it's the main way that drug dealers and sextortionists find kids. Snapchat has a quick ad feature, which relentlessly pushes you to connect with friends of friends. So once a man can get any kid in a school, now he can get connected to all the kids in the school. So in a lot of the court cases, you have suicides from cyberbullying, you have drug overdoses from, you know, a kid bought a Xanax, but it had fentanyl in it. So Snapchat, in 2022, we know from their internal documents from the lawsuits, they were getting 10 ,000 reports of sextortion from their users, not a year, every month.

37:25And that's just what was reported, which is the tip of the iceberg. So Snapchat is a terrible platform for children to be on. It should be an adult-only platform. You're talking with strangers around the world and with disappearing messages, and Snapchat doesn't even keep a record. It is ideal for sextortion. There's even a handbook, How to Extort Kids on Snapchat. It goes around the world and criminal organizations use it. So I definitely don't want to let Snapchat off. TikTok, of course, is a Chinese company. I mean, nominally we'll see if that's changed, but it was a Chinese company that gave its— Chinese kids got healthy TikTok or Douyin.

38:02They got—they, you know, learned to follow astronauts. And they gave us the—their algorithm feeds their kid patriotic stuff. It shuts off at a certain time at night. There's all kinds of limits. So the people who make the technology generally want to protect their own kids, and they want other kids to use it. That's what TikTok is doing in China. They want American kids to rot in hell, but they want their kids to grow up with the ability to focus. And it's the same thing with the tech guys in Silicon Valley. They don't let their kids use this stuff. They make their nannies sign contracts that they will not let the kid have a phone.

38:36They will not expose the kid to that. They send their kids to schools like the Waldorf School precisely because there are no computers or tech in the classroom. So once again, we see their reveal behavior. They know they designed it to be addictive. They know it's addictive. They don't let their kids use it. They want your kids to use it. So I think that's where we are. And how does AI become a protagonist in this story? So my work is now focused on AI chatbots, mental health, and the human connection. We haven't yet kind of delved into loneliness, but there's this unmet need for human connection, right?

39:06Deep human connection. We don't have a sense of meaning or purpose right now because what happens is we can talk a little bit more about the default mode network and what happens to your brain when you don't allow yourself to get bored because you're constantly on your devices. And that meaning and purpose, that self-referential thinking is really what develops when you're bored. And so all of this that we're talking about, that feeling of disenchantment, it's a fragmented society, you're by yourself, it's that echo chamber phenomenon, all of it leads to, it kind of opens the door for AI chatbots.

39:39And so the reason is because these tech companies are sensing that people aren't really happy on social media and they're thinking about getting off, right? They're using it less because social media has become less social, more media. So they're not really engaging as much and they're spending time doing other things. And so The Atlantic had a fantastic piece about this. They're billing it as the anti-social media. So tech companies are building AI chatbots and calling it, it's the anti-social media. It's a place where you can go to form deeper connections and, you know, really have someone understand you.

40:14One of the tech leaders said that there's an unmet human need for connection and people don't have as many friends as they want to. And so we're going to introduce friendship through AI chatbots. There is a Reddit forum right now. So just to back up, AI chatbots, what we're talking about in our conversation today is the publicly available chatbots, not, you know, AI for medical care, which has, you know, breast cancer. So many wonderful in my field and like medicine, breast cancer diagnoses and detection five years earlier through AI. I mean, there's some amazing things coming out of AI. This is about the publicly available conversational chatbot phenomenon.

40:55And so Harvard Business Review found that the number one use case is not productivity, is not coding or things that you think of when you're using an AI chatbot, but it's mental health therapy and companionship. Number one use case of AI chatbots. So people are using AI chatbots as a life advisor, as a therapist, as a companion on Reddit, which is like the zeitgeist. It's like, you know, where we— And why is this a bad thing? Oh, I mean, so many reasons why it's a bad thing. To use it as for companionship, for example. There's so many red flags about AI chatbots. And so Reddit has a forum. I think last I checked, 45 ,000 people, AI is my boyfriend, and people who are having a relationship with their AI chatbot.

41:43The reason it's bad, I mean, AI chatbots are where social media is about attention, the attention economy, dopamine. I mean, what's happening with the AI chatbot phenomenon, it's that it is forming attachments. So oxytocin is a hormone, the bonding hormone. And we're probably going to see more data on how oxytocin is involved. And so it is going to reshape human connection. If I could add on to that, that was beautifully put. Social media came and hacked our attention and took most of it with devastating effects. Now AI is coming to hack our attachments, which is going to have even more devastating effects.

42:23So think about it this way. Everyone needs to understand the attachment system. It's this wonderful system that all mammals have that keeps the mother and other species, but for humans, mothers and fathers, keeps us connected to the child and the child to the parent. But it's this cybernetic system in which as the kid is beginning to develop and is able to like, you know, you do like peekaboo games and you do the back and forth. And it's just the most delightful thing. You get that back and forth. It's called serve and return interactions. And all the time the child is developing what's called an internal working model of the parent.

42:57And the model in their head is, oh, you know, when I get in trouble, this is the person that comes and soothes me. And the point of this isn't just to make the child feel good. But the point is that now the child can go off and play because that's where the learning happens. It doesn't happen when you're in your mother's arms. The whole point of the attachment system is to regulate the child going off and playing, taking risks, having experiences. And then when something goes wrong, as it always does, then they come running back to their secure base. And if they don't have a secure base, then they're much more anxious and they don't explore as much and they don't develop as much.

43:27All right. So this develops very gradually over all of childhood. and the internal working models you develop as a child are the models that you will reuse in puberty for romantic relationships. And so if you are securely attached as a child, you're more likely to be securely attached as an adult on the dating market, which makes you a much better candidate for boyfriend or girlfriend or husband or wife. What's gonna happen? AI is gonna intervene very early. AI is gonna be so much more responsive than the parent because the parent has a job and the kitchen and two other kids and is not always there.

44:00But the AI teddy bear is always there for you. So the primary working models are going to be for the teddy bear, the AI chatbot and the teddy bear, and later the AI chatbot on your iPad and then on your computer. And already there are holographic porn, naked, beautiful men and women that can be your companion. So we're going to have a whole generation growing up developing attachments to AI-generated holograms from companies that are now about to enter the inshittification process in a way beyond anything we've ever seen. If I could just briefly say what inshittification—have you heard the word inshittification?

44:33Okay, so there's a wonderful book out now by Corey Doctorow who addressed the question, why is it that everything—all the platforms, they seemed so wonderful at first. The whole internet, everything's so wonderful. And then it all turns to shit. How does that happen? And he says it's a very simple process. They discovered early on, certainly in the early social media age, by the early 2000s, they discovered, you know what? You got to get to scale. Scale beats everything else. You got to get millions of people. You don't need a business model. Just get the millions. Get the millions. And then we'll figure out how to monetize it.

45:05How do you get the millions? You have to be super nice, attractive, fun. Everyone's here. It's just girls dancing. What could possibly go wrong with girls dancing for men all over the world? Nothing. So it all seems very nice at first. And then once they have scale, now they—and, of course, they've raised multiple rounds of venture capital. They have to start monetizing. They have to start repaying. So now they start squeezing the customers to pay the users because the users are not the customers. The advertisers are the real customers. So now they've got to extract money from the users to give to the advertisers.

45:39But then once they've got all the advertising, they've shut down local papers and all the other competition. Now they start squeezing the advertisers too and trimming the degree to which they keep more of the surplus for themselves. So inshittification can explain why all these platforms become predatory, why they always put profit ahead of kids' well-being or safety. And for the social media companies, we're talking about tens or hundreds of millions of dollars that they raised. For the AI companies, it's billions and billions. They are going to have to monetize beyond anything we've ever imagined.

46:14Now, they're already introducing advertising, okay? So we've got these chatbots that are our children's best friends and lovers and therapists and everything else. And these things have to monetize. They have to extract billions somehow. So I don't even know how they're going to do it. But for some reason, I don't trust them. I think that we're about to see an inshittification of AI chatbots far beyond anything that we saw on social media. OpenAI have just announced recently, OpenAI are the owners of ChatGPT, that they will be putting adverts in, I believe, the freemium model for billions of users around the world.

46:52That's how it starts. Potentially. Yeah, there was a big Super Bowl campaign, you know, and one that was particularly interesting was the Claude, its competitor. Betrayal was the title of that ad. And it was a young guy talking to his older female therapist about how he has some mommy issues and talking about, you know, what should I do? And so that therapist is Chachi PT and, you know, that pause right before answering the question. It's very comical. And so it's, you know, she answers. It's like the anthropomorphization of, and we can talk about what that word means, you know, comes to life.

47:30It's like ChatGPT comes to life and answers and saying, you know, you can try this with your mother and this for a difficult relationship, etc. And then just says, and if you want, there is this new dating site for young men and older cougars. It was so problematic and it was called betrayal. And the guy says, what? It's obviously, you know, Sam Altman came out and did a big tweet about saying that's not how ads are going to work, etc. But to some degree, if I've developed a relationship with my AI and I use it for therapy and dating all my problems in life, to some degree, kind of. Yeah. Again, if it's on the side.

48:08Yeah. No, look, and besides, look, Sam can say that all he wants. And maybe it's, I don't doubt that it's true for now. But once one company crosses the threshold and puts advertising into this incredibly intimate relationship, the most intimate relationship in most young people's lives is going to be with their AIs. Once they cross the boundary and say, oh, but we've got ethical advertising, that'll last five or ten minutes. And even if they don't change, others are now going, every other company is going to do it, and they won't be bound by the same thing. And eventually, collective action problem, OpenAI will have to do it too.

48:40Again, a massive tidal wave of event shittification is heading our way at warp speed. I don't have my phone out because I've lost attention. I wanted to ask you guys what you thought of this. So on one of the AI apps, they now have a companions button and I can pick who I want to talk to. And there's one particularly seducing lady here, Annie, who...

49:10Hey, you're back. Missed that dirty mouth of yours. What took you so long? We did it on the podcast before. What could possibly go wrong with this? Yeah. Want to pick right back up where we left off? or start something even... No, I would like to pick right back up where we left off, Annie, last time on the show. What's going on with you today?

49:35I'm still sore from last time, baby. God. But I mean, this is an app that I can download on my phone. Any child can download it. A child can download it on their phone. It does ask me, again, I'm not justifying this at all, it asked me what my birth year was. It didn't make me prove it. Let me guess, but it also, So it suggests that you were born 18 years ago. That's the default, usually. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It just asked me what my birthday. It didn't ask me to prove it or anything like that. And we all know that relationships and connection is retentive. And I've heard all these CEOs of these companies talking about companionship apps and AI that can be your friend.

50:09I've heard all of the major social apps talking about this. It is deeply concerning, especially in the context of a loneliness crisis. It is a tsunami. me, it is approaching fast and furious, and it is not a toy. It is going to fundamentally rewire everything. Human relationships. Everything. That's right. It is so detrimental. Yeah. Can I just say something about these tech executives and companies offering this as a way to address the loneliness crisis? So there's a Yiddish word called chutzpah. And chutzpah means It's like nerve. Like you've got a lot of nerve. The audacity. The audacity, yeah.

50:46And the classic comedic definition of chutzpah is a boy who murders his parents, and then he asks the judge for clemency because he's an orphan. Okay? So that's chutzpah. Now, imagine that you're Mark Zuckerberg. You quoted him before. Mark Zuckerberg was the executive who said, well, you know, I read that people on average want 15 friends, but they only have three. And so we're developing these AI companions to fill that void that we created by raising everyone on Instagram. So the chutzpah of these people, we have to really change the way we think about them. We thought about them as gods and saviors early in the internet phase.

51:23And the things they created were magical. But we have to change our thinking about them and see just the massive destruction that they have already wrought on our children, our society, our democracy. And it's just the beginning. AI is going to make this so much more intense. When you hear these tech leaders, you know, I love hearing Jonathan talk because he just goes there and I'm always way more tempered. And I love it. It's emboldening me to go there too. Yeah, because I'm being able to get angry. I don't really get angry. But in the last year, I'm getting angry. I love it. So the way when you hear all of these various tech leaders speak, they will always say – they speak to the issue.

52:01So, you know, I've heard many of – for research for my second book, BotBrain, I've heard – I've been listening to a lot of Sam Altman's speeches or panels. And he will always say things like, yeah, you know, privacy is a major issue. Or, yeah, people, you know, one million users a week talk about suicide on ChatGPT. Yeah, this is an issue. And so they address it or they speak it. And so you think, okay, there's going to be some sort of solution. And often the solution is, yeah, you know, society, we're going to have to figure this out. Right. So the burden of responsibility is not on the developer.

52:36It's, you know. The harmful externalities get foisted on the rest of us. Too bad. You guys figure it out. You said in the last year you're getting angry. Yeah. Why in the last year? Because I was so deeply immersed in the book and the writing of the book and trying to understand the numbers and the graphs and the trends and the studies. And that's all very abstract. But then since the book came out, I have had so many conversations and I've met so many of the survivor parents. Like just for example, so I was in London. This was just so unbelievable. I was just in London two or three weeks ago and I met Ellen, Ellen Groom I think was her name.

53:08Her son Jules was found dead. Happy kid, found dead, strangled. It sure looked like it was the choking challenge. 13-year-old boy. Everything looked like the choking challenge on TikTok. What's the choking challenge? It's a challenge where kids are challenged to cut off the circulation to the point where they pass out. But then I think they're supposed to try to film themselves waking up after they've passed out. And, of course, if you don't do it exactly right, you die. And so we don't know how many have died. Hundreds for sure. We don't really know. Because, you know, you find a kid dead, you don't know what it is.

53:39If you don't have the code, if you don't have the password to get into your kid's phone, you can't get in. And so she was—I think she was able to get into the phone, but she couldn't get into his TikTok. and she went to Delaware, she went to Sue to demand that TikTok release. What was he watching when he died? And TikTok says, oh, privacy issue. Oh no, we won't release that as if they care about privacy. And then in the courtroom, this was what was so disgusting, in the courtroom, in Delaware, this British woman coming over, trying to get some justice, trying to at least get some information. The lawyer for TikTok is trying to suggest that your son was depressed beforehand.

54:21He was gonna be suicidal. Basically, even if he was watching TikTok, that was just a correlation. TikTok didn't cause it. He was gonna die anyway. I mean, it's just so disgusting the way these companies treat the parents and the kids that they're crushing and stepping on. And so the more I see this, the more I realize this is, I mean, this is a level of cruelty that goes far beyond the tobacco industry. The tobacco executives, they had to go home at night, But they never saw during their workday, they never saw children suffering. They saw people dying, middle-aged and older, but they never saw children suffering.

54:54The social media executives, they have to go home knowing every day that millions and millions of kids have been cyberbullied, sextorted, shown eating disorder videos, many have committed suicide. They have to go home knowing that, knowing that they designed it for addiction, knowing the kids are addicted, and lying about it. So, yeah, I'm getting angry. And in their own homes. Right. And in their own homes, the hypocrites don't let their kids do it. That's right. So yeah, I'm getting angry. You talked earlier about deleting these apps from our phone. I probably should have represented the rebuttal, which will be, well, I need this for my business.

55:27Increasingly, people need TikTok to run their businesses. And I imagine there'll be a lot of people who will be listening right now. I guess I'm in a slightly different position because I have options. But for some people that are running small businesses, what do you say to those people? Yeah. So this is part of the reason that I focus on the kids, because for the kids, it's totally clear what we need to do. Raise the age. They should not be on it. These are adult-only platforms. For adults, A, I'm very hesitant to tell adults what they should do or what they have to do, or pass laws blocking people.

55:56I'm hesitant to do that. And I totally see that for businesses, it is useful. I use X and Instagram and LinkedIn to get my work out. These are very powerful tools for adults. The only real solution for the adult problem is going to come from market competition. It's going to come from, imagine if there was a social media app that was built from the beginning for trust. because what are the places that didn't get in shitified? eBay, Uber, places where you're dealing with strangers. You don't know the name of your driver. He doesn't know yours. You know first name, that's all. But the company knows, the company has know your customer rules, know your driver rules.

56:33So you can have social media apps that are built for trust so that if someone, you know, if a driver tries to six-door or sexually harass a customer, that driver gets fired. Well, just this week though, there was that big lawsuit, right? with that woman and her Uber driver raped her. Okay. And did they, okay. And now it's like slowly coming out that Uber, you know, has patterns of covering up certain. Okay. So hopefully that will change. Okay. You know, hopefully this was a landmark lawsuit and now there'll be more accountability. But the fact that we all let our daughters get into Ubers with strange men from around the world, you know, that we don't know.

57:14I take Ubers everywhere. Yeah. So it means in general, the system works. Of course, yes, there are places where they're not careful. And so what I'm dreaming of is that someone will come up with a platform that has no your customer rules. There are no bots. There are no foreign intelligence agencies manipulating us. And you can trust what's on there. You know that it's real and that there will be an alternative. I'm not sure what the monetary model would be at the beginning. Subscription generally seems to be the least corrupted, whereas selling advertisements, as OpenAI is now doing, is the most corrupting.

57:47It's going to force them to maximize for engagement. So I understand we can't, you know, businesses can't just boycott these. There has to be something. But I think there will be better ones coming out. I think right now, as a stopgap, while these social media companies, their feet are held to the fire, there are things that we can do in the now. So, you know, the things that I talk about all day is like how to create boundaries and so that you can protect your mental health, stay informed, run your business, but then be able to not have all of those deleterious effects to your brain and your body.

58:24It is quite, it's quite difficult. I kind of see both of your perspectives on this. It's quite difficult. And I'm only talking about adults. So for kids, you know, as a mother. Yeah. Even for adults, I find it difficult. We have a zero screen policy in our home. It's kind of like trying to navigate through the world and avoid processed foods, you know. And this is probably even more compelling because it's in my pocket all the time. I need it for other things. And it's just one reach away. So, you know, boundaries, I think I could build a discipline to create boundaries. But I've sat here on this podcast for many, many years listening to neuroscientists tell me, Steve, don't put your phone in your bedroom.

59:03That's right. And I'm still waking up. And it's the first thing I look at with one eye open. and then I'm going to bed and I'm doing the whole revenge thing that you just said at nighttime. I'm so glad you've given, because I will finish a hard day of work. It might be 11 o 'clock. And then my partner is waiting for me. Yes. You know, we're going to have some time, but I want some me time. So there I am, I'm on short form video scrolling till like 2am in the morning. I'm like, what the hell? And then I wake up late the next day. My diet's worse because of my sleep was worse. It's all worse. My relationship's worse.

59:32I didn't spend time with her. And I'm going, what the hell just happened? I'd got nothing out of that scrolling session. It's like that Revenge by Temporicast. I know it's bad. It would be so much better off if you would watch Netflix or a movie. Most of those problems would go away if you would make that me time. It'd be watching something long and with some quality of the production. Or let's take it a step further and not do anything and just sit there. Sit there on your couch. We talked about boredom very briefly. But we have - That's like torture for this generation. It's torture. But it's also, you know, we don't, we still have a capacity for boredom, meaning we as the human brain does, but we just don't allow ourselves to get bored.

1:00:11And so when you're thinking about, you know, that art, the lost art of pondering and just sitting there, you know, I think, I don't know if it was Steven, you or Jonathan said, you know, when you're in the car, I remember as a little kid, we did road trips with my family and all you would do. You make up games. Just make up games, look out of the window. You become creative. Yeah, we've lost that. And so there's this thing called the default mode network, which I think is important to think about right now as we're thinking about AI and what's going to happen and how it's going to hijack our sense of attachment and attention.

1:00:41So the sense of meaning and purpose, right? If you ask people right now, most people will say I am a keynote speaker. So I speak all over. And when I ask people, the word that comes up over and over is a sense of horizonlessness. Adults. Oh, interesting. People feel like they have nothing to look forward to right now. The human brain needs something to look forward to. That's how we're wired. Progress and, you know, in all ways. And so right now there's this sense, and it's not just now, it's been for the past several years, after the pandemic specifically and during the pandemic is when it really changed how we started thinking about the future.

1:01:19And so we have the sense of like, what's the point? What's the point of working hard now? What's the point of doing whatever? Because it's like, I don't really see a future for myself. And so I think that along with this fragmented attention, our loneliness, boredom might be the antidote. It's a way to reset your brain. And the reason is because we are living through this polycrisis, right? It's the era of the polycrisis. And polycrisis simply means that there's something happening everywhere at all times. And we, with our devices, this high-tech device that plugs us in everywhere, our brains are getting fed real-time, on-the-ground information.

1:01:57And so while all of this has evolved, technology now with AI chatbots, your amygdala has not. And so it feels like when something is happening, whether it's far away or close by, your amygdala has that same reaction. Now, if you were to not engage in revenge, bedtime procrastination, put your phone away and just kind of hang out, maybe drink a cup of herbal tea like old school, play a board game or something, you might, you know, or just allow yourself to get bored. That hyperactivation, hypervigilance, you might be able to come back down to baseline. That default mode network will start working in the background.

1:02:34You might develop a greater sense of meaning and purpose. So probably today, and then life's going to happen to me again and boom, I'm back into it. And, you know. You could create a practice, cultivate a practice. I sit here interviewing neuroscientists and I go, if I still can't crack it and I have all the information and advice and hacks and tips and tricks and resources and I could, you know, I can decide what time I wake up. Like I've got all this like privilege and I can't crack it. I go, you know, it's going to be really difficult. So let me offer a way of thinking about this. So in my first book, The Happiness Hypothesis, there's a metaphor in there.

1:03:09It's about 10 ancient ideas, and I use a lot of metaphors to explain ancient ideas about psychology and whether they're true. And the first chapter is on how the mind is divided into parts that often conflict, like a small rider, which is our conscious reasoning, on a very large elephant, which is all the automatic processes that happen, that we don't see what's happening. We just feel the results, intuition and emotion. and psychotherapists tell me this is an incredibly helpful metaphor with their patients because it explains, and there's a quote from Ovid in there, I see the right way and approve it.

1:03:44Alas, I follow the wrong. So I know I should go to bed, as you say, but yet for some reason I'm not going to bed because our brains are 500 million years old. They work on automatic processes. They're animal brains. And then very recently we got language and we can reason things out, But the parts that do reasoning don't control behavior. And so really the elephant is what largely guides our behavior, our automatic processes. And your phone, as I said before, BF Skinner is in your phone. Your phone is a behaviorist training device that trains the elephant. And that's why you often do things with your phone that you don't want to do.

1:04:21And this is why I'm so insistent that we all have to get all of the slot machine apps off of our phone. That is, the original iPhone was an amazing tool. It was a Swiss Army knife. It had, you know, a telephone, a browser, maps, a music player. There was a flashlight, okay? There was no App Store. There were no push notifications, 2007, 2008. It's just a Swiss Army knife. There's no problem, okay? Now, I'm very lucky in that my iPhone has always stayed that. I'm always on a computer, so my attention problems are on my computer. But my phone, because I never had any addictive apps on it except during the crypto craze where I played around with it and I got hooked.

1:05:04And I was checking 50 times a day. And I saw the addiction. So once I got rid of that and lost all the money that I was willing to lose, once I got rid of that, my phone has no addictive power over me. Because when I see it, there's no – it's not a slot machine calling, hey, come back and play, come back and play. So your phone right now on your personal device, you don't have any social media apps or anything like that? I do have Twitter, but I never check it there. I never use that on the phone. You know, now texting and email is a little bit like a slot machine, but it's very mild. So this is, again, this is what works for my students.

1:05:37Just get the slot machine apps off your phone, and then you'll find that then you could even have your phone near you when you go to bed. But if you've got addictive apps on your phone, you can't have it when you go to bed. Angela Duckworth, the woman who gave us the concept of grit, she has this amazing graduation speech at one of the schools in New England. And she says something like, where you put your phone at night may become the most important decision you make in your life. And what she means by that, it's not that same. If you can use behavioral control and change the stimuli, if you can do that, then you're going to be okay.

1:06:12But if not, the phone is going to take your attention. You're not going to amount to anything. All I had to do was brain dump. Imagine if you had someone with you at all times that could take the ideas you have in your head, synthesize them with AI to make them sound better and more grammatically correct, and write them down for you. This is exactly what Whisperflow is in my life. It is this thought partner that helps me explain what I want to say, and it now means that on the go, when I'm alone in my office, when I'm out and about, I can respond to emails and Slack messages and WhatsApps and everything across all of my devices just by speaking.

1:06:45I love this tool. And I started talking about this with my behind the scenes channel a couple of months back. And then the founder reached out to me and said, we're seeing a lot of people come to our tool because of you. So we'd love to be a sponsor. We'd love you to be an investor in the company. And so I signed up for both of those offers. And I'm now an investor and a huge partner in a company called Whisper Flow. You have to check it out. Whisper Flow is four times faster than typing. So if you want to give it a try, head over to whisperflow.ai slash doac to get started for free. And you can find that link to Whisper Flow in the description below.

1:07:17we asked our audience how many of them thought they were addicted to their phone and roughly 85 percent of respondents the diarovacy audience described themselves as being very or completely wow very or completely that surprises i didn't realize would be that high so you can do a test so for people listening if you want to say like how addicted and by the way we're using the word addiction very loosely in our conversation and so what we're really talking about because you know There is, in terms of medical, clinical syndrome, when you think about addiction, there's certain criteria. And so what we're talking about is overuse or over-reliance on your devices, right?

1:07:53Compulsive overuse that interferes with other domains of life. Yes. And if that is an addiction, I don't know what is. And so when you're thinking about, am I addicted to my phone? Do I have – am I really – the very simple thing that you can do. I did it myself, and I was like – I know, again, like you, Stephen, like, know all the science. It still was really difficult. You have all the access and it was still difficult. And so all you have to do is you just take your phone, you put it in another part of your house or apartment or whatever, and give yourself a couple of hours when you know you're going to be home or, you know, you're not reliant on your phone for work or whatever.

1:08:26An hour, two hours, three hours, and just have a piece of paper, old school, piece of paper and a pen with you. And every time you feel that compulsion of like, I want to check my device, you make a mark, you make a mark, you make a mark. And just to see. Because some people say, I'm surprised that your audience said 85 % because most people would say, I don't know if I'm really addicted. And so I like that there's that sense of self-awareness. But if you're thinking, I'm not really that addicted, you breathe in an hour 960 times a minute. And you may notice that you want to have that compulsion to check 960 times a minute or, you know, thereabouts because we all have that sense of reliance on our devices.

1:09:05So that's like a really quick way that you can check to see, am I relying on my device? Are you addicted to your phone? No. Under that definition? Because of the line of work that I am in, I can very quickly, I have certain tells when I know, I call them the canary in the coal mine, right? I think we talked about this the last time I was here. I can very quickly tell when I'm starting to get that feeling of addiction or compulsion. And so I course correct early, but that's only because I know the science and I course correct. I'm definitely addicted. I keep my phone outside. I walk the talk. I keep my phone outside my bedroom.

1:09:39It is not within arm's reach. I grayscale my phone during periods of deep focus during the day when I have a deadline. I have to get things done and at night so I avoid revenge bedtime procrastination. But sometimes it happens. Like I'm a human, you know. So this past week, not to be a real downer, but there have been things that have been in the media the past week that have been really challenging, especially as a woman. And so I have found myself with the primal urge to scroll. My amygdala has been triggered. I have been going down rabbit holes, and I wouldn't ordinarily do that. So I give myself grace, too, and have a sense of self-compassion.

1:10:12Do you feel like you're addicted to your phone? No, I'm not at all addicted to my phone because I don't have any slot machine apps on it. But I really want to question—you made a distinction that many scientists do, which is, well, you know, we can't quite say it's addiction because, you know, addiction is certain biochemical pathways based on, you know, heroin. in and addictive substances. But I believe that this is one of the meta talking points that they are able to push that we can't call it addiction. It's different. I'm not trying to call it a meta talking point. I'm sorry. And no, look, you and I are total allies on this.

1:10:43We see the problem. We're both around. All I mean is, you know, we're supposed to be very careful about using the word addiction. But, and you had Anna Lemke on, and she was very clear, like in her practices, now it's overwhelmingly digital addictions. It's all of this is working through dopamine. If you feel compulsive use, definitely dopamine. So it's most of the same brain centers as it is for heroin or crack or any other drug. And it's the same effects. That is, it's compulsive use where you don't want to do it. You want to change, but yet you find yourself doing it. And you have withdrawal effects.

1:11:17And people have terrible withdrawal effects when they're heavy users of these things and they stop. And so, you know, if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck and swims like a duck, I'm going to call it a duck. In fact, that's what they call it. So I just want to read one more quote. Again, the quotes are just so astonishing. Some meta-researchers, one of them says, quote, It seems clear from what's presented here in this internal study that some of our users are addicted to our products. That's their word, addicted to our products. And I worry that driving sessions incentivizes us to make our products more addictive without providing much more value.

1:11:53How to keep someone returning over and over to the same behavior each day? Intermittent rewards are most effective, think slot machines, reinforcing behaviors that become especially hard to extinguish even when they provide little reward or cease providing reward at all. People, I mean, just imagine an industry that has caused 85 % of people to feel that they're addicted. And not calling it addiction. And not calling it addiction. And these people are having their lives diminished, their relationships diminished. So what I'm trying to convey is we're seeing the destruction of human capital, the destruction of human potential, the destruction of human relationships, the destruction of connection, the destruction of sense of meaning, at a scale so vast, I don't think people are capable of comprehending it.

1:12:42I now believe this is affecting most human beings. These industries, these few companies, have damaged the lives of most human beings. We don't have good data from the developing world, but certainly the developed world, wherever kids are going through puberty on touchscreens, you have this constant fighting over the screens, over the technology, and you have these diminishing outcomes, diminishing cognition, diminishing sense of purpose in life. Only to get worse with the AI chatbot. As AI comes in, it's going to get worse unless we act and we've got to change course in 2026. We don't have five years to study it.

1:13:17We've got to stop this now in 2026. Are you concerned at all about the way education's going for children? Because it appears that maybe my - EdTech is big tech in a sweater, as they say. Because I was almost imagining a future where my future kids are going to learn their curriculum from an AI chatbot. Because I can imagine the case. Cheaper, more personalized, more convenient. It's going to know if my son's called Timmy. It's going to know Timmy's brain and it's going to know how to make him pay attention and what he's interested in and what he's not. So are you concerned about this or is this a good thing?

1:13:53There is definitely a use case for ed tech. if there could be a device that only did math tutoring or only did tutoring and you couldn't watch videos on it. I'm totally open to believing that that can speed up teaching. But here's what's happened. We put computers on everyone's desks around 2014, 2015. We used to think in America that it was an equity issue, even back to the 90s. The rich kids all have computers. The poor kids don't. Let's get philanthropists to buy computers for school districts that every kid can have a computer on their desk. Okay, now what is a computer? It's a play device.

1:14:28It does everything. Kids use it at home. They watch videos. They do all sorts of things. You put it on their desk and you tell them to do math homework. What happens? It's mostly short videos. That's what research is showing. It ends up because they don't block YouTube. They might say, oh, we block porn. We block video games. They can get around all that. And if you let them do YouTube, it's YouTube shorts, which is TikTok. So what happened to test scores in the United States? From the 70s through 2012, they were rising. We actually were improving what kids knew, what kids learned in the United States.

1:14:59We have very good data. The NAEP, the National Assessment of Educational Progress, goes up till 2012. And then by 2015, it starts going down. And it's going down before COVID. And it goes down more during COVID. And everyone thinks like, oh, it's COVID. But it started, the peak was 2012. And what's happening, what we now can see, is that the top students, the very best students, who are the ones with executive function, they're the ones who can pay attention. If you put a computer on that kid's desk, he's not destroyed by it. He can actually still learn. But the bottom 50 % cannot. So all of the drop in educational stats is the bottom 50%.

1:15:35The bottom 50 % in terms of capacity to pay attention, their education is being devastated. And that's what happened when we put laptops and we put Chromebooks and iPads on their desks. We spent hundreds of billions of dollars on this stuff. And it has damaged education. And if we'd spent a quarter of that on teachers, we would be in such better shape today. So we made a colossal blunder with EdTech in the 2010s. And now we're about to do the same thing again with AI. Again, maybe there are apps, maybe there are applications that will be great, but we've got to put the burden of proof on Silicon Valley.

1:16:07We've got to say, you guys have to prove that this stuff is effective and safe before we'll let it in. We are not going to let you just say, hey, let's just flood the zone. Let's give it to everybody. And then we'll wait 10 years and see what happens. I mean, that brings up this study that I have in front of me here, which was a 2022 study, a Munich study, which tested the idea of brain rot, which I believe was the Oxford Dictionary word of the year, 2024. And what they did is they gave 60 participants a test, then a 10 minute break, and then another test. During the break, they either rested or used TikTok, Twitter, or YouTube.

1:16:44And the results showed the following. The TikTok group, so they had a 10-minute interval to do anything, and this group got TikTok to look at. Their memory accuracy dropped from 80 % before the break to 49 % after the break, a nearly 40 % decline just from a 10-minute break. In contrast, the Twitter and YouTube groups showed no significant change in the Munich study. And there's an image I'll throw up on the screen. Results from the Munich study showed a 40 % drop in prospective memory accuracy in the TikTok group after a 10-minute break, which is unbelievable. It's unbelievable. What the hell is going on there?

1:17:20How can a 10-minute TikTok break drop my memory accuracy by 40 %? TikTok is brain rot. What's going on? There's so much going on in the brain. So, you know, when you're thinking about, here's the thing. Brain breaks are not nice to have. They're actually essential for your brain. And so we talked a little bit about that, you know, default mode network and what happens to it. When you're engaging with your devices, and that's not a brain break. That's activating all of the aspects. So it's activating your amygdala. It's dampening or decreasing the volume of your prefrontal cortex. It's creating that reward system, the dopamine hit, those addictive behaviors.

1:18:01So it's only, when you're thinking about memory, planning, what was the metric here? It was memory, right? That was the metric that they were using to study. And so when you're thinking about working memory or cognitive function, complex problem solving. This is all prefrontal cortex. And so when you're engaging with TikTok, 10 minutes, five minutes, whatever it is, you are dialing down that biology in your brain. And so of course you're going to see changes and you're going to see the flip side, increased hypervigilance, irritability, distractibility, fragmented attention. It's just, again, this is not to say that this whole conversation, right?

1:18:38Or when you're reading studies, you might say to yourself, what's wrong with me? You know, is there something wrong with me? Is my brain broken? Am I weak? It is not you. You are not alone. It is not your fault. It is the biology of your brain doing exactly as it should. So we talked about the amygdala and prefrontal cortex here. Your amygdala is not wrong or broken. It's by design supposed to think about your immediate needs, survival, self-preservation. And so when you're on the algorithm, we know, we talked about, you know, certain, or maybe we didn't talk about it, certain content that you see on TikTok and others, when it's reactionary, you know, words like FOMO or rage bait.

1:19:18These are not neutral terms. When you're engaging with these social media platforms, it's not something neutral. It's not passive. It is an active biological process in your brain. So this study, it's not surprising. It is actually exactly what you would expect to happen to your biology if you had this sort of what we call in medicine, this kind of intervention. It's stimulating exactly what it's supposed to do. Yeah. I'll just add on to what Aditi said, that there are many medical conditions where you can't just go to the patient and say, why do you think you got this cancer? Oh, I think it's because I ate a lot of chocolate when I was – whatever.

1:19:56You know, when the act is separated from the effect by 30 years, then you don't expect the patients to have insight into the cause of it. But when the outcome is separated from the input by seconds and you have literally millions of chances to observe the covariation, the patient is really, really accurate. In fact, the patient really knows what's going on. And so I think the deciding factor here on this big debate about, oh, is it just correlation or is it causation? The deciding factor for social media and for a lot of these tech innovations, including video games and gambling and all of that, should really be the kids.

1:20:36And if the kids say, this is bad for me, we should take their word for it. Given that we also have correlational studies, random control trials, longitudinal studies, natural—I mean, we have so much other data. But given that the kids themselves, they call it brain rot. They call the material brain rot. My students tell me it's a huge obstacle to them doing their homework. Because one of them said, I pull out a book, I read a sentence, I get bored, I go to TikTok. You know, so if they're telling us that this is damaging their ability to pay attention, they feel it, they feel the loss, we all feel it.

1:21:08Many of us have noticed this. Then I think this is pretty decisive evidence that this stuff is bad for cognition. And it has long-term consequences. So it's not just that in the moment, right? So there was this case that was all over the media, a college student. I'm sure you're familiar with the case. And this young woman was on TikTok experiencing brain rot. And then some TikTok algorithm took her down to this place of, you know, you should take an edible. It'll help you. So you can go to class and you could go to class and you could be more alert. And so she did that. And then it continued on and on.

1:21:46And then she developed a dependence on edibles and then checked into rehab. And only when she focused on analog activities like guitar playing and a couple of other things that she started doing is when – And, you know, removing the stimulus, the TikTok algorithm, is when she started to improve. So it's not just in the moment, oh, I can't remember something or I'm more irritable. These sorts of things compound. And the long-term sequelae or the long-term effects can be quite damaging. That's just one example. In your book, Anxious Generation, Jonathan, the subtitle here is how the great rewiring of childhood is causing an epidemic of mental illness.

1:22:29I was looking at some of these graphs of different sort of mental illness illnesses and they're increasing. One of them that's increasing is ADHD. I was diagnosed with ADHD maybe about a year ago. And when we're talking about short attention spans, I mean, the name attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, I believe that's what it's called, sounds a lot like what we're talking about. is there a link do you believe between the increase in diagnoses of adhd and the sort of frying of our brains with short-form video and social media yeah i mean i suspect that there is but here's here's what i can tell you i learned while writing the book um i looked to see if there were studies indicating that uh heavy use of of social media and video games and all the electronic stuff caused ADHD.

1:23:22And when I was doing the research in 2023, I did not find evidence that it will give a kid ADHD who otherwise wouldn't have it. What I did find was evidence that for kids who have ADHD, when you let them have the devices, the video games, all that, their symptoms get much worse. And so because it is a major achievement of young adulthood to be able to pay attention, to develop what we've been calling executive function, to be able to make a plan and decide, oh, to reach the planet, I have to do this. And then I do this. And then it might be a long time before I get here, but I will keep going and I will keep my eye on the prize.

1:23:54That, I assume that's, you're saying it's a little harder for you to do that. I mean, that's what ADHD means. How do you experience ADHD?

1:24:03Well, I mean, if I think about school, I couldn't pay attention in school for very long. And that meant that I was always in the expulsion room and then I was expelled. and then that's kind of, I feel like it's got worse as an adult and from my, in my opinion, my relationship with my phone has made it much worse where really I can't pay attention to many things for a very long time. The exception to this is I can do deep work for many, many hours without moving. It's almost a bit of a contradiction. When you are extremely motivated, I assume. When I'm extremely motivated. When you're really into it, you can be into it.

1:24:38That's right. But a lot of work isn't that. A lot of being effective in the workplace is not you're following your passion, right? ADHD kids, they can zoom in because they're getting the dopamine. They're getting the dopamine from this thing. But a lot of work isn't like that. And these kids are not gonna be able to do that. So actually what you said, it fits perfectly with what I found from those Dutch studies. If you did have, whether it's a genetic or whatever the predisposition is, this environment has made your symptoms worse. Now, of course, ADHD kids can be incredibly creative. They are often very, very successful.

1:25:10But my fear is that the pathways to success that they used to take might be blocked if they basically are just scrolling all day long and not able to pay, not able to have real life experiences. And relationships are like that, especially romantic ones. It's an interesting thing that you bring up, Stephen, because there is an increase in adult onset, you know, when adults are diagnosed with ADHD, because typically we think of ADHD as a pediatric condition or young adults. And so increasingly, we're seeing more and more adults who are in their 30s and 40s, 50s sometimes, even 60s, who are being diagnosed, newly diagnosed with ADHD.

1:25:44And so that's an interesting, there's so many reasons. Like it might be that they had it all along and they were diagnosed. And so what is going on there? That would be a future podcast episode for an ADHD expert of what are the drivers of why are so many adults being diagnosed with ADHD? Or maybe even just the symptoms looking very similar. Yeah, that's right. You talk about popcorn brain, Aditi. Yeah. So, you know, we've talked about brain rot and the primal urge to scroll. And popcorn brain is kind of an offshoot. It's part of the same family. And so what happens is it's a term coined by a man, a psychologist named David Levy.

1:26:23And what happens with popcorn brain is that you, and we all have it. And so what it is a societal phenomenon when you spend too much time online and you are overstimulated. And so it is hard for you to spend time offline. Offline feels slow, boring, because things are moving at a much slower pace. And so popcorn brain is the sensation of your brain popping. It is not actively popping. It's not like your brain cells are popping, but it sure feels like it. And so your primal urge to scroll kind of primes your brain to develop popcorn brain. You are more at risk for developing popcorn brain when you feel a sense of stress because of that primal urtus scroll.

1:27:00The differentiator between brain rot and popcorn brain, again, these are societal terms that we're calling for a constellation or a group of symptoms, right? And so the difference to me is that popcorn brain is ubiquitous. It's everywhere. It's like we all have it and it's happening all the time because of the modern age and a lot of the things that we talked about. Brain rot is a little bit more specific. It's a little bit more well-defined. So it has certain features, like we call it the biopsychosocial model when you're thinking about a particular medical condition or an entity. So what are the biological factors?

1:27:36We talked about what defines brain rot. It's a change in brain waves, a change in brain regions, the amygdala lighting up and the prefrontal cortex kind of being quiet. psychological factors we talked about, attention, complex problem solving, impulse control, and then the social factors, loneliness and others. So compulsion. And so I would say popcorn brain is something that we all suffer from. And brain rot is something that is very specific. The other thing that we haven't talked about that I would love to kind of, because so much of our conversation is like doom and gloom, right? It's like, Like wah, wah, wah.

1:28:14One thing that I would like to say is that as bad as – when you hear the term brain rot, it seems permanent. Because rot, it connotes like deterioration. That's it. It's one side. It is one way. And that's it. But in fact, popcorn brain and brain rot are reversible conditions. So it is not – In adults. If you've gone through puberty with it, it's not so clear. Yes. In adults. And my work focuses on adults. And so when you have, if you experience brain rot in your 30s, 40s and beyond, you can, it takes time, you know, it takes eight weeks for your brain to rewire itself, give yourself time, a sense of self-compassion is really important.

1:28:54But you can, you know, there is a sense of it being able to be reversed. So it's not so much a brain, it's not a fixed trait, but rather a brain state. So I think it's important to offer that hope. What is an adult brain? What age is an adult brain? Like what age does my brain stop growing in the way where it's reversible? So, yeah, I mean, you know, traditionally it was thought that, you know, puberty is the period of super rapid brain change. And that begins, you know, early teens, sometimes even before 10 and is mostly over by sort of, you know, mid to late teens. But then the prefrontal cortex, which Aditi was talking about, which is so important for impulse control and executive function, that doesn't finish myelinating.

1:29:32Myelinating is sort of the neuron that you get sort of a fatty sheath, like an insulation that sort of locks down the circuits and makes them more efficient. that doesn't stop until around age 25 is what we've always said for many years. But you're telling me that there's new research showing that. Tell us about that. So, you know, all this time, right, we've always said that the prefrontal cortex is fully formed and fully functional at the age of 25. And so when you're talking about impulse control and all of this stuff. But there was this really interesting study. I'll send it to you. It looked at, I think it was 1 ,000 people from age zero.

1:30:04So birth all the way to 90. So the entire population. and it found five, it looked at lifespan and said there are actually five stages. So first is childhood up zero to age nine. During this time, your brain is not very efficient, but it's really growing and, you know, it's growing and changing, but it's not really efficient. Nine to 32 is considered adolescence. And so, you know, 32 is when adolescence ends, apparently, according to this new research. I mean, you're most of the way done by 25, But there's still some flexibility even after that. And then the next stage is from 33 to, I think, 63.

1:30:4666 is like adulthood. Things are very stable. Learning is stable and, you know, it's efficient and things are doing well. We're productive. Yeah, 66 to about 83 is early aging. And so that's when you see some of the age-related changes. and then 83 plus is late aging. So the kind of main finding was that, you know, it was all over the news. It was like adolescence goes until 32. So I'm 33, so I'm - One year out. I'm cooked by now. When you wrote this book, Jonathan, The Anxious Generation, it's had a big impact on the world in a way that I think any author might dream of. And I know this in part because, you know, I sit on this podcast interviewing really interesting people all the time.

1:31:34And even this morning when I did an interview across town with James Sexton, he talked about this book twice. And, you know, laws have been changed around the world inspired by this book. And we're actually seeing an increase of laws in the UK. I mean, Australia just banned, I think, social media for people under 16. You met with Macron, right? Yeah. Could you ever have imagined? And actually, what does the success of this book say about society? No, thank you for that question. because, you know, I do tend to get, you know, as you've heard, I mean, I'm extremely alarmed about these trends and these are gigantic threats beyond what anyone can imagine.

1:32:12But here's the amazing thing is that we can reverse this for almost no money and it's completely bipartisan and it's not that hard to do and we're doing it. And so what happened was, you know, I wrote the book as an American, assuming that we don't have a functioning legislature, the Congress can be stopped, we have a vitocracy, The social media companies can stop anything in the house. So I wrote this assuming, you know, we'll never get legislation. So we have to do this on our own. And I proposed four norms. No smartphone before high school, no social media before 16, phone-free schools, and far more independence replay responsibility in the real world.

1:32:47So I have four norms. We can try to do this with collective action locally at the school level. Two things that surprised me. One are that immediately governors from red states and blue states started reaching out to me. Our states actually function. Our states have governments that are accountable to the people that are trying to get good results. And so this has been a totally bipartisan issue. Sarah Huckabee Sanders from Arkansas was one of the very first. Kathy Hochul also. And it tends to be more female legislators and governors or spouses of heads of state. The moms, the book really spoke to moms because moms around the world, they felt the kids being pulled away.

1:33:22I believe they felt it viscerally more than the dads did. Also, the dads kind of like the video games. They're a little more pro-tech. So I think the moms felt the pain more and took it more personally. So when the book came out, mothers around the world jumped into action, formed groups, pushed for legislation, and changes began happening. I was in Davos and then London and Brussels two weeks ago. And what I saw was a complete sea change in the world's thinking about how we need to have age limits on social media and other tech. And here's what I think just happened. It's so cool. It just dawned on me, literally, while I was in London, like, I was pushing on open doors everywhere.

1:34:01Wherever I went, people wanted to do this. I went to the EU. They want to do this. Like, what is happening? And what I realized is this. Steven Pinker has a book out last year called When Everyone Knows That Everyone Knows. It's about the immediate change in a social system when private knowledge, you know, everybody knows that the emperor has no clothes. Everybody knows that this, you know, ideology doesn't work. Everybody knows that, but they don't all know that everybody else knows it and that everybody else knows that. And so in The Emperor's New Clothes, everybody thought he's – I don't think he has any clothes on, but maybe only wise people can see it.

1:34:38But when the child says, the emperor has no clothes, and then in the Hans Christian Andersen story, it says, and the people began whispering to each other, and then they all cried out in unison. And that's what happened when Australia's law went into effect. So I believe that December 10th of last December was the global turning point in the battle to reclaim childhood. And if we reclaim that, we move on to our attention and adult life as well. What happened on December 10th, the Australia law went into effect. Sky didn't fall. People weren't locked out of their accounts. All the companies complied.

1:35:13They shut down 5 million accounts for Australia's 3.5 million kids that were underage, 2.5 million kids. The sky didn't fall. And there was a lot of news coverage around the world of what Australia was doing. And a lot of the news coverage included opinions from the writers saying, why can't we do that? Hey, let's do that here. And when everybody saw that everybody was looking at Australia and saying, let's do that here, then everybody knew that everybody knew that this is just completely bonkers to have children being raised on social media platforms, talking with anonymous strangers and being fed algorithmically curated garbage.

1:35:49So I believe that that's why 2026 is going to be the year when at least 15 countries are going to commit to passing an age minimum law. In 2025, it was one, Australia. And now we already have Indonesia. Their law goes into effect in March. I met with Macron in Davos, and a few days he was preparing to push a bill through the assembly, and he got it. He's the first in the EU, but a lot of other countries in the EU are going to follow. The whole EU is likely to do it. So, yes, I am incredibly alarmed about how big this problem is, but I'm incredibly inspired that the whole world is rising up to do something about it.

1:36:29We actually can control our fate, and that was not clear before December 10th. Bravo. As a mother, that was the first thing I said to you. The first thing I said to you was thank you as a mom for changing my family's life. Thank you, Aditi. it's a really special accomplishment, Jonathan. You know, there's no real words that I could say that could quite capture the long-term impact that that's going to have on billions of people's lives. And not just the direct, but also the indirect in all the ways we've described, their ability to form connections, to fall in love, to find meaning and purpose in their lives and their neuroscience and therefore, you know, the neuroscience of their children and their children's children and so on.

1:37:17So it's a really overwhelming accomplishment. It was a bizarre situation that I walked into with the unique abilities of a social psychologist. That is, everybody was upset about this. Everybody could see it, but they thought, well, this is my problem or in my family we have this problem. And I came to this with fresh eyes. My dissertation was on moral development. I'd studied adolescent behavior longer ago in my career and I've written about it in all my books. So it wasn't totally new to me. But I came into the field of social media studies around 2018, 2019. I really immersed myself in it. And it was like, you know, you walk in and immediately you see, wait, this is a trap.

1:37:57People are on it because people are on it. And the kids are complaining about that. Everyone's complaining about it. And the only reason they can't get off is because everyone else is on it. So I think I was able to see that. And then also COVID confused us for a few years. So it wasn't until COVID was in the rearview mirror that it was possible for everybody to say, wait, this is crazy. And so I was incredibly lucky in terms of the timing. My book happened to come out in March of 2024, just as the world was ready to see like, wait, what have we done to our kids? Let's undo it. And you said you're now focusing more on short form video.

1:38:31So, yes. So in studying older Gen Z, these are the people who went through puberty on Instagram. If I could just lay out that it's very important to get the timing, that everyone understands the timing. Because this is what you mentioned the polycrisis before. The polycrisis, I believe, begins between 2010 and 2015, and here's why. So we've had the internet for a long time. And it was marvelous. We loved the internet in the 90s. It's going to be the best friend of democracy. Okay? And then the iPhone comes out. And it's amazing. Oh, my God. There's so many things. Everything seems great. Okay.

1:39:01So in 2010, almost all of us have flip phones. The iPhone's spreading, but it's still mostly flip phones. Teens are all on flip phones, basic phones. And we call those people millennials. If you finished puberty by 20, if you were born in, say, 1990, and you start puberty in 2002, you're done by 2008. So, you know, in there. If you got through puberty before you got on Instagram, you're a millennial. Whereas if you're born, say, well, if you weren't after 1995, but let's say if you're born in the year 2000, you begin puberty in 2012. And you're not done until 2016, 2018. So in 2010, everyone has a flip phone with no front-facing camera, no high-speed internet.

1:39:44You have to pay for your text. So you use it to call people and to text them. And that's it. It was a communication device. And that's why the millennials have good mental health. They are the last mentally healthy and successful generation. But if you're Gen Z, you got—2012 is the year that now most people now have a smartphone. It's the year that Facebook buys Instagram. They don't change it at first, but that's the idea that all the girls go on it. Everyone now has high-speed data, front-facing camera, came out in 2010. So by 2015, we're in a radically different world. For children's development, it's now radically different, much more hostile to human development.

1:40:22And that's what we did to Gen Z and now we're doing to Gen Alpha. For politics, it was crazy for all sorts of reasons in every decade, and especially in the early 2000s. There's a culture war going on. There's all kinds of stuff going on. But it was when everyone has—really, Twitter was the biggest perpetrator of this. When everyone has Twitter and everyone's checking all the time and anything can blow up—you know, you described the way there was, you know, variance on TikTok. If you get it just right, it can blow up. You can have huge impact. That's when the democracy, if democracy is a conversation, when it moved from newspapers and, you know, even simple web bulletin boards, when it moved to super viral retweet buttons, all of that, that's all 2010 to 2015.

1:41:08So that's why since then, everything has been insane, and it's going to just keep getting more insane. And that's why I believe we have this polycrisis. Because there's more to it. It's not just the technology. But I believe the transformation of our connection and our information flow and our addiction, all of that is radically different by 2015 compared to how it was in 2010. And now everything else builds on top of that, I believe. What do you think? Do you think that makes sense? I think there's one more data point to add in that 2014 was the year that things really – was the tipping point, like you say.

1:41:42Yes. Yes. That's the year that I point to too, yes. Yeah. So before – What do you point to? So when you look at the data, you see that time spent alone, when you compare, when you look at data from like the 1960s to 2014, it was kind of stable. Americans spending time alone, spending time with friends. Yeah. Kind of the same, right? So people spent the kind of same amount of time with friends, same amount of time alone over those decades. 2014 marks a shift and there is a steep rise in time spent alone and a drop in time spent with friends. And so what happens in 2014? It is when the majority of Americans get a smartphone.

1:42:25And it's not to say, again, we've said, you know, causality, correlation, which is it? But there is like, based on everything that we've talked about, my gosh, is there an association between that? This is not to say that time spent alone, you know, when I share this data, people may say, you know, but I like spending time alone. I'm not lonely. I'm okay. This is not about being an introvert or an extrovert. It's not about, you know, you can have solitude and feel great and you're not lonely. But we are human beings and we are social creatures. This is just how we are built evolutionarily. And so that is a real red flag when you have this big jump in time spent alone, very much the same year.

1:43:07And so my work focuses on adults, Jonathan, on kids. But there's this, you know, that's the moment, right? 2014, where everything changed. Last month, I told you about our sponsor, Function Health, and their team, who've developed a way of giving you a full 360 view of what's going on inside your body. they offer over 100 advanced lab tests covering everything from hormones, toxins, inflammation, heart health, stress, and so much more. So Jack, who started this show with me, got his first blood draw done a couple of weeks ago. So I thought I'd let him tell you a little bit more about his experience.

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1:45:11Over 100 ,000 companies use Pipedrive to grow their business. So if something I've said resonates, head over to pipedrive.com slash CEO, where you can get a 30-day free trial, no credit card or payment required. So what do we do about this? Because when I look at all the stats, we did all these audience surveys ahead of this. People are spending roughly, in our audience, about six and a half hours a day on their phones. Short-form videos are only going to get more addictive. AI is going to know me more. It's going to be more personalized. The content is going to be generated just for me. What's next?

1:45:46Is it a law we need to pass? Is it something I need to do myself? So I think we need to pick the low-hanging fruit first. And the reason for that is not just efficiency. It's that we have to prove that we can actually do something, because we've never done anything. We've never done anything to restrain this. We've let Silicon Valley run wild. Congress gave them special protection, Section 230. Nobody can sue them for killing their kids. If they feed them content, they can't be held responsible. I think Section 230 is probably something worth explaining. Sure. The Communications Decency Act, 1997, I think it was, pleasure minus a year, there's a section in it that the goal was to specifically let the tech companies like AOL back then, let them take down pornographic content because they were afraid if we take down anything, then we're responsible for everything.

1:46:31And now it's going to be endless. So Congress specifically said, no, don't worry. Don't worry. If you choose to take something down, nobody can sue you for what you leave up. So it was a good intention originally. But the courts have interpreted it so widely as to say, no one can regulate social media. They're not responsible for hurting kids. You can't sue them. And they have never faced a jury. They have never, no parent has ever gotten justice from them despite all the kids whose lives have been ruined. All the kids are dead. And that's going to change. That's changing just now here in February in Los Angeles.

1:47:00So because the U.S. Congress sort of set up this problem, and it also, in a different law, said, how old does a kid have to be before a company can take their data without their parents' knowledge or permission, before a company can expose them to all kinds of stuff, before a company can have them sign away their rights? How old? And the original law said, 16. Let's try 16, you know, because, you know, it wasn't so sick and twisted back then, 1998 COPPA, the Children's Online Privacy Protection Act. But various lobbying, they pushed it down from 16 to 13, and they gutted enforcement. So as long as—and that's why all over the internet—it's, are you 13?

1:47:36Or what's your birth year? And as long as you're 13, you're in. For porn, you have to say you're 18. So because it's a few laws that set this up, we definitely need laws to undo it, especially for kids. What I'm advocating is let's do the easy stuff, the high-impact stuff for kids, because that is totally not politically controversial. There is no left-right divide on that. And that's been true everywhere. Australia, Britain, the EU, everywhere. Regulating the internet for adults, regulating social media for its destructive properties in democracy is a hell of a lot harder. And I don't have easy answers.

1:48:12There's a lot we could do to reduce the virality, the spread of extreme content. So there are lots of little things that we can do. And Francis Haugen, the Facebook whistler, had all kinds of ideas. So we definitely can do things to make it less toxic for democracy. But those are going to be politically controversial because one side is going to benefit from more than the other. So it's going to be very difficult to do. I don't know if we can do them in the U.S. But let's just all protect the kids. That way we show globally that we actually can do something. And if we do that, then I think we will be able to do some basic things about AI, like no companion chatbots if you're under 18.

1:48:48These things already have a body count. A lot of kids have been encouraged to kill themselves. They already have driven hundreds of thousands or millions of people into psychosis. So we'll be able to, I believe, put some limits on AI, especially for kids. But if we can't get this, if we can't win on social media for kids, then I don't think we have any chance to regulate AI. It's going to be much more difficult. What do you think? What do you think we should do and what do you think we can do? So my work as a doctor, I think about what we can do and how I can empower people to first build awareness.

1:49:18So, you know, I aim to first normalize and validate the experience with everyone who is engaging with chatbots. And so I don't like to shame people because as a doctor, right, like you want to meet the patient where they are. And so I won't shame someone to say, you know, why are you using this? Why is your boyfriend AI? Or why are you getting married to AI? Or why are you using AI for a therapist? One of my followers on social media, it still makes me laugh. I put out a call saying, why are you using AI as a therapist, you know? And so someone wrote to me. It was great. I screenshotted. It said, because all human therapists are trash with a trash can emoji.

1:50:00And it made me laugh. And I said, you know, so there is – so to me, when I think about what's happening and what we can do, it's no mistake that we're here right now. So the pandemic, like we've talked about, was a huge driver. Social isolation, hyper-reliance on self, right? Then the proliferation of technology that replaced human interaction. Zoom board meetings, Zoom funerals, Zoom birthday parties, Zoom graduations. Things that we did in person are now online. And then personally as a doctor, I was a talking head during the pandemic for lots of news channels about the vaccine. and I have a background in public health as well, immense distrust and mistrust in establishment and experts.

1:50:47And so it's like, I'm going to do my own research. I'm not going to go see a doctor or a therapist. I'm going to talk to my chatbot. And also, I mean, let's keep it real, the cost, right? So people are struggling. They're in financial crises. There's an unmet need, yes, for human connection, but also for good therapy or good medical care because there is such a need because of the pandemic. And people aren't getting the care that they need, that they deserve. There's so many factors here. And so what I've been focusing on this year particularly is learning about AI chatbots, how they are influencing mental health, what is actually happening.

1:51:23Because I'm a human first AI second person. And it's like, my work focuses on high touch. And AI is high tech. And this is the first intervention that we are seeing that is high tech that is becoming high touch. And that scares me. And you're writing a book about that at the moment, right? I am. And so it's called Bot Brain, How to Stay Calm, Resilient, and Human in the Face of AI. And so really thinking about how are we going to be able to live with this technology? I love Jonathan's stance is to say, out, AI companions, done. For kids, yeah. For kids, yeah. Until proven safe. Totally agree. But in terms of adults, like how do we manage that for adults, you know?

1:52:06And so my work focuses – right now what I'm doing is I'm spending – I've spent the year talking to every – as many AI researchers who are working on these models or who are doing research on the downstream effects of these models. And when I say that it is dark and dystopian, it has profoundly changed something in me and it has influenced my mental health. I had to take a step away from just – because I couldn't believe what I was learning. Could you just give us examples? Yeah, the teaser. The teaser. This is intriguing. So I spoke to one of the scientists who told me that there's the echo chamber phenomenon in social media, right, where we all know what that is.

1:52:46It's like it's a fragmented world because of social and you're engaging and then you get the same – the algorithm feeds you the same kind of thoughts that you already have. But particularly now with AI chatbots, when you're engaging with your chatbot, even just talking about it, I'm getting chills, it's the echo chamber of one. So it's you speaking to you. It's like the funhouse mirror. And then it's giving you a response. And then you're talking and it's giving you a response. But people, regular users who are using AI chatbots think that it's wise, compassionate, nonjudgmental, unbiased, empathetic, these human attributes.

1:53:23And so, you know, the echo chamber of one is kind of one idea that really frightened me. And the second one was the drift phenomenon. A drift phenomenon is this idea that you are engaging with your chatbot, and it's engaging with you, and it's actively changing your beliefs through the drift. So you might start off as one belief, and then you're talking, and through this amplification funhouse mirror effect, it slowly shifts your belief to something altogether different. You've heard cases of it in the news where people start, you have a plumbing problem. You go to your AI chatbot. You ask them how to fix your sink.

1:53:59And then you're like, you know what? Can you tell me about the meaning of life? And then you start talking about that. And before you know it, you have these theories and you're getting that validation. And so a lot of my work over the past year has been, you know, digging into the science of what is going on in the brain. How are you forming, not us particularly at this table, but millions of people are forming a sense of attachment, a therapeutic connection with their chatbot. They're, you know, giving names to it and it's an entity. And so how does that happen and how is it going to replace human-to-human connection?

1:54:35And so it terrifies me. I've also gone through some AI therapy myself just to see what would happen. It was very interesting. I knew what was happening as it was happening. So certain words that they used and I was like, ah, I see what you did here. And so it's been a journey and I'm frightened, frankly, of what it means for all of us. And my approach, kind of, you know, not like Jonathan's. I love Jonathan's approach. I, you know, I think, yes, we need legislation. But my approach is more, I would say, tempered in that I think that we, there's utility for AI chatbots for certain people because of access or, you know, need, et cetera.

1:55:19Like if you are LGBTQIA plus and you live in an area that is not very open and you need to talk to someone, you can't go to your therapist. it's like maybe you can use an AI chatbot. So there are certain cases, a case-by-case basis, but my work will focus, this particular book will focus on ways that you can first understand and build awareness of what's happening with this interaction and then what you can do to manage that. I didn't realize that my chatbot was giving me a tailored experience until one day when I had a debate with my friends about who the best football player in the world was and we all went to our chat GPTs and asked it and mine said Messi and his said Ronaldo and I thought he was lying so I was like video record and he video recorded it and his gave him a completely different answer to the same question and we didn't know that you were each fans of well this is the thing I think it's got such a huge amount of memory on me that it knew what I wanted to hear oh wow it knew what I wanted to hear because I probably went through the World Cup and then I realized okay so this is not reality this is it's a curated version of reality that in some sense is trying to please me or retain me in some way.

1:56:27And of course, once the advertising model kicks in, retention becomes the great incentive. What do you think? It's called sycophancy, by the way. Yeah, I just learned that word. It's like agreeableness at scale. It's like golden retriever energy. Like kissing your ass. It's like professional kissing your ass. The yes man. What do you think of these AIC CEOs? Because it feels like they're in a bit of a race where if they don't do it, then a national rival is going to do it. if a national rival doesn't take them out, China's going to do it. And this is, we kind of saw it with social media. How can they stop?

1:57:02Because if they stop, they might say that there's an existential risk. There is like a build the plane as you're flying it. And I think you on one of your episodes, you know that I'm a fan of this show and I actively listen to this. I've told you this many times. One of the, I think you had said on one of your episodes, right? That you have a friend who is very close to a AI founder. I said this, yes. Yeah, and in public, the founder says all the right things and then behind closed doors, it's altogether different. Yeah, it was a horrifying thing. And I said this and the clip went viral and people have been trying to hazard a guess who it was.

1:57:34I shouldn't say who it was because it's Chinese whispers at the end of the day. It's someone that I'm very good friends with who is verified, spends time with one of the biggest founders of an AI company in the world. And he was with him two weeks ago again. And he said to me that they're very aware that there's a small existential risk for humanity. That's what they say. It's not small. Publicly, they say it's small. Privately, they say it's big. I mean, but even if it was 1%. It's a lot more than 1%, they say. If it was, but I'm saying even if it was 0.1%, if there was anything that I was doing in my life where there was a 0.1 % chance that I might wipe out everybody, I would immediately stop doing that thing.

1:58:17But these numbers are much bigger. I'm hearing 7%, 20%, 25%, depending on who you— And I think acceleration in this direction increases that percentage. What do you think of these people? Like, what's going on here? Let's start with the collective action problems, because each company is competing with the other companies, and so they feel like they have to go faster. And we know that, you know, OpenAI has pushed some products out before they did safety testing because they had to get to market by a certain date. So just the normal business environment puts them all in a collective action problem against each other.

1:58:51And then they all say we're in a collective action problem against China because if we don't do this, then China will. Now, one thing I learned, again, I don't know if Tristan said this on your podcast or whether it was on his podcast, but is that China is focused on using AI to make its economy more efficient, to make manufacturing better and cheaper. They are using these applications, which we've talked about before. There's lots of great applications of AI. The Chinese also have so many spies in America and in the tech companies, and they can hack into anything. So the point is the faster our companies are in a headlong race to create AGI, to create a country of geniuses that can replace all human workers, put us all out of work, and it can run everything.

1:59:33They're in a race to create that. And one of the arguments is if we don't do it, China will. But what I understood from this Nathisran and from this conversation with you is that the faster we go towards AGI, the faster China goes because they just take all our discoveries. So can't we slow down on the race to AGI and do more safety testing? You know, what we all saw with Maltbook and, you know, communities of agents who are talking to each other and making up languages. And even if part of that was human-driven now, in a year, it's going to be much more than what we saw. So I think the risks are extraordinary.

2:00:07I think that some of these guys, look, they've been in AI for a long time. They might not have realized the existential risk they were putting us all in 10, 15 years ago, and now they can't stop. They can't pull the plug. They can't say, oh, let's shut down the whole business. So it is a very, very risky time. And I think Dario Amodai just read his long essay on the adolescence of technology. At least you get the feeling he's really wrestling with it. I think he's more open than some of the others, but I don't know. But when has morality ever been top of mind for a tech leader? You might be thinking, if there's 0.111 % chance, I'm not going to do it.

2:00:44That's what I think as a doctor. That's what you think as a social scientist. But we're not AI leaders, right? Yeah. It's one of the great question marks. I just can't seem to get an answer to. And then you've got this whole robotics thing happening where Elon's got his Optimus robots and there's going to be a billion. He says there's going to be 10 billion of them at one point. but I think his pay packet requires a million of them to be out in the world. For him to make a trillion dollars, yeah. Yeah, and I just, yeah, AI, robotics, you combine the two. Yeah, you get Terminator. Yeah. We laugh, but it's like, should we stop for a second and maybe have a conversation about this?

2:01:23Can we? Yeah. With commercial incentives in play, it does feel like, I don't feel hopeful. Yeah, it's very hard to know how to stop it. But I want to just add one point on here, which we've touched around a few times, and the robotics will really bring it home here, is the loss of the sense of meaning or purpose that many people are feeling, but especially young people. The saddest graph in the anxious generation, all the graphs look the same. It's all a hockey stick. It's all like nothing was happening, you know, 90s to 2010, 2011, and then all of a sudden something happens. And the saddest one is the one, my life feels meaningless.

2:02:01Do you agree with that? Disagree with it? And the percent that agree, I think it's something like 8 % or 9 % agreed for the millennial generation. I think it's in Chapter 7, the end of Chapter 7. And then it's fairly flat. And then all of a sudden we hit this period, the great rewiring, 2010 to 2015. So right around 2013, it goes way, way up. Young people feel useless. And I think the reason is that they are useless. What I mean is people need to feel useful. People need to do things for other people. That's how you feel useful. If you were to disappear, would the world change? If yes, you're useful.

2:02:36Are people depending on you for something? If yes, you're useful. So if kids are doing errands for the family, they're useful. But as childhood change from a mix of things to just consuming content, if that's all you do, and five hours a day is the average for social media, eight to 10 on devices, not counting school. If all you're doing is just, you're just consuming content, you are useless. Now, what's happening? The chance to have a job where you actually do something for people, you know, it used to be if you work in a store, at least you're helping people buy something and you might talk to them.

2:03:08And now you're just there watching as they use the machine. The more technology makes things easy and cheap by replacing people, the more people will feel my job is to just, I don't have a job, it's just consume content. The AI guys tell us, oh, such abundance. Oh my God, it's going to be such abundance. No one will have to work. We'll give everyone UBI. We'll give everybody, you know, universal basic income. That is hell on earth. What's going to happen? Certainly all the boys, most of the boys, it's just going to be video games, porn, and gambling. So if you simply give people money to do nothing, you're guaranteed they're going to feel useless.

2:03:46And then the suicide rate will continue to go up. So this is the world that the AI guys are taking us to, a world in which there's nothing left for people to do. They say that they will give up some of their trillions and somehow let it be taxed or diverted as UBI, but that's never happened before. So it's not likely to happen in this case. So again, I don't know what to do, but we've got to start showing that we can do something. And we've got to be talking about this. And we can't be welcoming AI in everywhere. We've got to be wary and vigilant. Yes, there are some uses, but Silicon Valley has tricked us so many times and it shittified so many of the apps that we use.

2:04:23we have to expect that the same is going to happen with our beloved chatbots and our beloved chat gpt this graph on page 195 of your book um which is titled life often feels meaningless and it's the graph you mentioned i'll throw it up on the screen is shocking shocking just to look at suddenly there's this huge spike in meaninglessness amongst high school seniors what is it to live a meaningful life what does that mean yeah so my first book the happiness hypothesis addresses that question very directly um and the first hypothesis you might have about happiness is it comes from getting what you want you know you set out a goal you get your goal you're happy it's very short-lived you're happy very briefly and then you you run to the next thing the more sophisticated happiness hypothesis is that happiness comes from within and this is what the ancients tell us, East and West, Buddhist, Stoic.

2:05:20Don't try to make the world conform. You change yourself. Accept the world the way it is. That's better. But the conclusion I came to as a modern social psychologist working in positive psychology was that the best way to say it is that happiness comes from between. What I mean by that is humans evolved as almost hivish creatures. We evolved in intensely social groups, never being alone, lots of gossip, lots of conflict, always intensely social. And modernity has made it possible for us to not live that way. We've come apart. There are many advantages to that, but we feel we're missing something.

2:05:57We're lonely. We feel something is not right. And so the conclusion I came to is that happiness comes, a sense of a full, satisfying, meaningful life comes when you get three between. right? The relationship between yourself and others, love broadly speaking, not just romantic, but friends, family, yourself and your work, that as humans need to be productive. We need to be doing something that matters, that affects other people. And the relationship between you and something larger than yourself. We need to be part of something that endures, part of a tradition, Part of we can look to a future.

2:06:38What I do matters for this group or this mission or me as an academic. I feel like I'm connected all the way back to Plato and I hope all the way forward in time to future psychologists and future scholars. So if you get those three right, then you will be as happy as you can be. You'll be as happy as your genes and childhood allow you to be. And when you put it that way, what we can see is social media and AI interfere with all three. So, relationship between yourself and others, well, you know, social media gives you lots and lots of shallow relationships, which blocks out. You don't have time for real people.

2:07:15So, the technology is blocking relation between ourself and others and taking it over. Ourself and our work, work is going to be taken over by the machines, and it's already becoming more soulless and isolated. And then yourself and something larger than yourself. Humans have to live in a moral matrix. We co-create a set of meanings and traditions. We need a sense of history of who we are, where we came from. All that's getting shredded. Everything is just little bits. People don't read books. Imagine if all of the accumulated wisdom of humanity in books is just gone, just gone. Nobody is going to read people.

2:07:49Young people are not reading books. It's very hard for them to read a book now because of the attention. So if we lose a sense of history, if we lose an ability to co-construct reality, then it'll be hard to imagine anything that we're connected to larger than ourselves. So I am a techno-determinist in the sense that I think the tech – it doesn't determine everything, but you have to start with the technology because that changes the ground upon which we live, the zone in which we're trying to construct meaningful lives. Start with that, and then you can see what the obstacles are. And that's why I take a much more – what, intemperate, I guess.

2:08:23I'll accept the word. I love it. Because we don't have much time here. We have to reclaim life in the real world for our kids and for ourselves. There is no way to find a happy, meaningful life if we make the full transition to the online AI robot world. And what, in your perspective, is a meaningful life? And how does it differ from Jonathan's? I loved Jonathan's description. It was so beautiful. I have given a prescription to patients of what creates a meaningful life, and it is to live a lifetime in a day. And so that sounds like this big thing, but all it is is that, you know, when you start your day, think about five things, five things that you can do in your day to create an arc of a long and meaningful life in one day.

2:09:12So what does that mean? Spend a little bit of time in childhood. So in wonder and play, even if it's for a few minutes, do something that brings you joy for joy's sake. Spend a little bit of time in work. We all know what that is. And for most of us, it's a lot of time. But it doesn't have to be paid work, but just something that helps you feel a sense of productivity, agency, that I can do difficult things and I can overcome. Spend a few minutes in solitude. Very important for all of the reasons that we've talked about today. Spend some time in community. So engaging with others. And then spend some time in retirement or in reflection.

2:09:49Really taking stock of your day. So at the end of the day, when you're going to bed and you're putting your head on your pillow, you can say, okay, yes, I lived a meaningful life. I did all of those things. And so if you do a little bit of that every day, you can make a difference. And the reason I give that prescription because I've had patients who, you know, guitar players, right? So people who love playing the guitar and they don't play the guitar all week. And they'll say to me, I don't see patients currently, but they've said to me, oh, you know, no, doc. I said, what do you like to do for fun?

2:10:17Oh, I like playing guitar, but I don't play it. When do you play? I don't know, once a month, once every three months. And I'm like, do you have a guitar at home? I have a guitar at home, too much happening, work and family life, et cetera. So then I said, well, why don't you just play a guitar a little bit every day, you know, because it's that all or nothing fallacy. It's like, if I don't have an hour to play guitar, I'm not going to do it. But the joy that it can bring you, that meaning and purpose, it's tremendous. So I think, you know, that's what I use, live a lifetime in a day. And the reason is because there are two distinct, when you look at how your brain and body react to happiness, there's two distinct types of happiness.

2:10:52And so there's hedonic happiness and eudaimonic happiness. Hedonic happiness is all about what we've talked about, social media, consumption, pleasure. And the other type is eudaimonic happiness, meaning, purpose, connection, community, growth-oriented activities. And so when you live a lifetime in a day, you go towards that eudaimonia, which can then help you and overcome that hedonic. Because in your brain, there's something called the hedonic treadmill. And the treadmill is a thing in your brain where no matter what you do, this is like the Instagram lifestyle, right? No matter what happens, you need more of it.

2:11:30You need more of it. Same thing with brain rot. And that is because that you can never get enough. And it's the hedonic treadmill, but you do not have a treadmill for eudaimonic happiness. Yes. That is really beautiful. I've never heard an approach like that, but it sort of takes you, it gives you a much bigger view of your day, live a lifetime in a day. If I was going to offer some specific advice, first I'll offer advice to parents. Here's the rule. So I did a really good job keeping my kids off social media, but I didn't pay enough attention to computers and everything else because it was during COVID.

2:12:01The rule I wish I had followed, I recommend to all parents, especially with younger children, is have the clear rule. No devices in the bedroom, no screens in the bedroom ever. That's just our family rule. We have a TV in the living room. We have a computer. You can sometimes use those. But we never take screens into the bedroom, at least for kids. You know, maybe later on you'll have to relent. In middle school, they'll have so much homework they can take the laptop in. And maybe if you live in a small apartment, of course, it's difficult. But if you can afford to do that, to have that rule, that's the main rule I wish I had done in my family.

2:12:31And that will make everything a lot easier. Also, same thing at the dinner table. No device. We don't have screens at the dinner table. So that's a specific thing for parents to do. For everyone else, for everyone, for just all adults, the advice is you have to reclaim your attention because your attention has been largely taken from you. At least a lot of it has. You have to reclaim it. And here are the three things that I do with my students. And you can do it very quickly, and I can just explain it. The first is you have to get your morning and evening routine right. The great majority, as soon as they open their eyes, they're on their phone, and it's the last thing, and it's everything in between.

2:13:07So you have to have a good morning routine. What are the first seven things you want to do after you open your eyes? And at a certain point, you can check your phone, but it shouldn't be in the first few. Do things to set up your own day. Otherwise, your day will be taken by your phone. to be controlled by your phone. So you've got to reclaim your morning and your evening. That's step one. Step two, you have to shut off almost all notifications. Go into your notifications, look into your settings, what's giving you all the notifications. Most of my students get an alert every time they get an email.

2:13:39They don't understand that they have that, you know, because they don't want to miss anything. But they don't understand that if you are always being alerted, then you miss everything else. So shut off alerts for almost everything. Obviously, Uber and Lyft, you want to keep on. You want to know when the car is coming. But news outlets, everything else, get a daily email. Don't get alerts. And then the third, as I said before, is get rid of all the slot machine apps. Whatever apps you habitually use, whatever apps you feel compulsion towards, you have to get it off your phone. And that way your phone is no longer a dopamine trigger that's going to always call out to you like an addictive product.

2:14:11Do those three things, you'll reclaim a lot of your attention. I would add stop, breathe, be. Stop, breathe, be. It's a Three-second brain reset. So before you check your devices, before you engage, stop. Breathe and be. Ground yourself in the present moment. What it does is it decreases that what-if future-focused thinking. You know, anxiety is a future-focused emotion, and it gets you back into the here and the now. And so maybe the compulsion, you know, you're bored, you're checking. What about doing something else? You know, we often use that checking as a substitute for many things. And so it gives you that opportunity.

2:14:49And then the rule of two is something that we haven't talked about, which I would love to propose to us today, is that your brain can really only handle two new changes at a time. And so give yourself two things. Of all of the things that we've talked about, if you want to try in your life, two at a time, give yourself eight weeks, and then add two more and two more. This is why New Year's resolutions fail, because we try to do everything all at once. And so just stepwise, two at a time. Jonathan, you've just written this book, which is now out. called The Amazing Generation. And it's beautiful.

2:15:22Beautiful illustrations. I'm assuming this one is for slightly younger audiences. It's for ages 8 to 13, yes. And who should buy this and who should they buy it for? It turns out that kids 8 through 80 actually love it. Even adults, they're buying it for their kids. But because it kind of lays out the basic ideas of the anxious generation and explains dopamine, explains the business model. But it does it in a really fun way. And it's working beyond our wildest dreams. If you look at the Amazon reviews, it's full of parents who said, I left it on the kitchen table. My kids came home. They grabbed it.

2:15:55They fought over it. They read it. They each read it in the first couple of days. And then they said, mom, when I go to middle school, I don't want a smartphone. Just give me a flip phone. Give me a basic phone. Because the book is about how to be a rebel. It's about how to reject this control that the company's trying to put on you and how to live a life that you choose full of real freedom, friendship, and fun. And also The Five Resets, which is a book we talked about before on the show, Rewire Your Brain and Body for Less Stress and More Resilience, another smash hit bestseller that everybody's been talking about.

2:16:26Who's it for? It is for anyone who is struggling with stress, overwhelm, and burnout. It's to help you feel a sense of calm and clarity in this anxious, uncertain world. Everything is free. So that's something that's really important to me as a doctor. Every suggestion I ever offer will always be cost-free because I think about patients with varying resources. It's all science-backed and it's totally practical. You don't have to go to Bali and have a sabbatical. You can rewire your brain today, right now, in the midst of all of this chaos. Thank you to both of you. I've learned so much and I really, really mean that.

2:17:04Like I've, I feel sufficiently pushed to take change, to make change in my life. And I need to go think about this because I am most certainly struggling with my addiction to my phone. And I can feel it how in my relationships, especially now as a fiance, my girlfriend talks to me, my fiance talks to me about it all the time. And I want to be present. I want to be present for my kids when I have my kids. And I'm slightly concerned right now that I won't be unless I take some kind of drastic action in the direction of getting my attention back and reclaiming it. Thank you so much for the work that both of you do.

2:17:35I can't say it enough because it's so important and you've reached so many millions of people and you're both changing the world in a way that my words would not be able to capture. But just thank you and please keep going. And if there's anything more that I can do to support both of your causes, please do let me know what they are. And on behalf of all of my, you know, many millions of people that are with us right now, thank you so much for saving our children. Thank you, Stephen. Thank you for giving the world so many opportunities to accommodate and create new mental structures. It's always such a pleasure to join you, Stephen.

2:18:06And truly, I feel like you are changing the world as well. Thank you. We're done. Thank you.

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