Charisma Teacher: Psychology Of Why People Don't Like You! People Are Attracted To These Traits! The Secret To Being Instantly Likeable!

23:19I'm like these this is where we're gonna go now We're on weather and sports, which is where most conversations go But if I say you know, I grew up in Philadelphia But I never really fit in there like a lot of the people in that area wind up spending their whole lives within 20 minutes of where they were born. And so I traveled throughout my 20s and lived a bunch of places, but I now live in LA just because it's the right place for my business. And I end there. The next question that is coming from you is probably, oh, what's your business? Or where did you travel? So if I give you a number of different options to hook into here, you're gonna take the one that you're most interested in.

23:54And so what I would try to do in these answers with myself and what I advise people to do is take the three topics that you know you'd love to talk about. Like you'd love to talk about your travels, you'd love to talk about your business, and you'd love to talk about philosophy, or whatever it is. And find a way to just leave little crumbs in these common answers that give the right person the invitation to talk to you about that thing. And this is something that I found really like, small talk can suck. It's very draining to sit here and like how much more can I say about the weather or local sports team?

24:25I can't keep doing it. But when you do these sorts of things, it, uh, man, it opens up the opportunity for connection so much more quickly in interaction. And I hate small talk. Yeah. I really hate it. I find it really draining. I find it so fake. And I kind of want to get on to the real stuff. Um, so you're saying that's how to do it. To leave sort of crumbs in my response, that will send us down a more interesting pathway in conversation. To really think through how do I and what do I want to connect with people over? right? It's not the weather and it's not the local sports team. It is in my case.

24:58I want to interact with people that are interested in the same sort of like YouTube space that I'm interested in. That's one of the things. Before hand I thought that I knew about people. It's like I could tell who that guy is. I know I know what kind of life he has But when you start leaving these clues, people surprise you. The like the types of connections that come from people that you wouldn't expect are are, I don't know another word other than magical. It's very special to see that the world is full of opportunities where once you saw it as, I already know it's coming from this person, it's just gonna be a boring small talk conversation and define that that person could be someone that you do business with or become very close to or winds up being the brother of someone that you date is very exciting to me.

25:43There's a real mindset shift in that. Like seeing the world differently as a set of opportunities versus this sort of like fixed thing that you just have to navigate. Yes. And also there's a playfulness that can be brought to it as well. So one of the other things that I talk about is flirting with the world. So what I mean by this is that when you go out and you're flirting, you tend not to be literal in your answers. Right. There's a playfulness that is engaged. You're going to joke with that person. And what a lot of people do, and I'm guilty of this all the time, is when you're checking out at the store, you're doing anything, you are very literal in your answers.

26:21Can I help you with anything today? Can I get one other thing? What floor are you on as you get in the elevator? And if instead of, I'm on floor three, you say, I don't live here, I'm just casing the joint for work. You know, it's just like that little stuff that is playful, that is what people are dying for. We're just, so many people are on autopilot. And when you bring that playfulness, that little flirtatious energy to men, women, of like things open up in a very fun and exciting way. Does that come from confidence? Because I've noticed that I've certainly flirted with the world more now that I feel like I have a great sense of confidence that I didn't have when I was 18 to 25.

26:57Yeah, I think it's a circle. I think it absolutely comes from confidence when you feel good. You bring that playful energy to the world. And I learned to develop confidence by there was a time of I was not faking it until I made it where I wasn't comfortable, but I had this role in my head. I'm in the elevator. I have to say the thing right now. That's what I did. And then the interaction went well. And now I'm building these reps of good experiences where I'm seeing that my belief about the world is this place that I just had to make it through is not true. There's fun opportunities everywhere.

27:29I really want to make sure I've got everything on this first impressions point as well. Is there anything else that I need to be aware of? You talked about nonverbal cues. And I mean, there's so much information out there that says non -verbal cues are everything that then maybe nothing. Do you think they matter? And what are the most important non -verbal cues when it comes to making a good first impression? One of the ones that I see is prey versus predator. Pray versus predator movement and pray versus predator gesticulation. So if you think of an animal that is a prey animal like a little bird or a little rabbit, they're very like of a lion or like this like sort of languid slow movement.

28:14Now you don't have to dial it up to sleepy lion level. But one of the things that you see with people that feel very afraid is that they dart. Their eyes are very dirty. The hand comes in, the hand goes out. Goes back into the pockets very quickly. A bit of slowness to your movements. A bit of calm, especially if you're an anxious person, can help a lot. That doesn't mean you need to lower the energy, but it just means you can slow things down a bit. it. The other thing that I find is this is almost pre -first impression. If you're out at a social event, right, you're out a networking event, you're at a bar.

28:48I think a lot of people do not realize the intuitive sense that others have for what is going on around them and interactions they're not directly in. And so what will happen, and this is connected to the pray thing, but not identical, is that people go out to a networking event and they feel very uncomfortable in their own shoes. And so they're looking at their phone or they're standing by the bar and they're sort of looking around for something or someone to rescue them from their loneliness. And when you can shift that to I am going to be comfortable where I am, I'm going to find one person, my friend and I would go out to the bar and the rule that we had was the most interesting place in this entire bar is the space between our noses.

29:29It doesn't matter, you can say whatever you want, you can be like, I'm terrified here, I'm so scared, I wish I could go home right now. But we have to engage with one another. It was remarkable how much easier it was to start conversation when it was started from a place of we're enjoying one another's company and being playful and having a good time here versus two of us just sort of like standing at the bar going like this. Looking around. Looking around. Attention all fed. So yes, so those are two things. One, preverse predator movements. And two, are you exuding this vibe of I don't have it somebody else does?

30:00That that people have a unconscious conscious sense that that is happening around them. And so making it a conscious point to, I'm going to be cool in my own space. When I interact with someone, I'm not going to make them a stepping stone to another person that I'm more secretly attracted to or has the job that I want. I'm with this person now. And then I can move on. That had a huge, huge impact on the ability. Like, first impressions became easier because of the pre -first impression. I mean, there's so much I wanted to dig into that. on the pre -versus predator thing. What is it about slow movements that make someone appear to be our highest status?

30:39Because as you said, I immediately thought of the line, and then you were talking about some little rodent that's starting around and it's anxious that's about to be eaten. And then I thought of the line which is just slowly moving. And then I thought of business contexts where you've got the leader in the room who is kind of sat back in their chair, they're doing things in a more considered way and maybe the intern who's dropping the paper And like, like hitting the glass accidentally in his head. It's so interesting because it's so true. Yeah, it's safety. Safety. It's safety. I mean, prey animals are hunted.

31:12And that's what you have to be head on a swivel. If you're a prey animal, you want to move slow, you're dead. It's over. We're animals that are highly tuned to social status. And so when we feel low on the totem pole, we feel less safe. And so one of the things that the ways that we exhibit that is we move more quickly. We have our head on a swivel. We have to be aware of everything that is going on. We can't take our time because we don't, at some level, that mammalian or reptilian brain is telling us that we are unsafe in this environment, or at least less safe than the leader who feels very slow.

31:45Another thing that you'll see in terms of status and people who feel are, is the ability to be seen looking at others. And so one of the things that happens, and this is, I don't mean, I mean, I can explain how this doesn't contradict the point about focusing on someone else, but when you do turn your attention to someone else, what you'll see the guy at the bar who feels uncomfortable or the intern do, is they'll often look with their eyes but not with the rest of their body. They're doing this sort of stuff because they're afraid to be seen looking. But when you take the person who is more comfortable, they will turn their head and sometimes their chest and their whole body towards others.

32:22And they can be caught looking because they're not threatening that other person, and they're not harming them, they're comfortable versus there's a fear of if they see me looking, I'm in trouble. And so these are little, I wouldn't say that you need to spend all your time focusing on these hacks, but they work both ways. So it's one thing to notice that, but if you actually consciously go to the body, I think this is one of the fastest ways to influence how you feel like state in the moment. Instead of doing this and the prey, darting and the sitting with the hands in the pockets, It's right that that creates a loop of feeling uncomfortable.

32:58So one of the first things that I would do when we I was going out to a networking event or a bar anywhere Where I felt uncomfortable was dance floor because on the dance floor I can go And open up and feel more comfortable through my body because I'm signaling to my body as I expand my arms and dance and wave them that I'm safe Right, and so it's a it's a two -way loop So if you notice yourself at a networking event or a bar anywhere where you're feeling uncomfortable And you notice that you're doing this. And you can say, okay, I can't go to my brain and make these anxiety go away up here, but I can choose how I hold myself.

33:32This is the Jordan Peterson standup straight, right? It's, there's this body loop feedback that we get. And if you do it by opening up your body language, revealing your vulnerable spots, which are the parts that you have veins, it's your neck, it's your inner elbow, it's your hands, right? Standing like this a little bit more open, that tends, and I can feel it now, I don't know why I didn't do it at the beginning, I'm a little bit rusty, geez. I feel immediately more grounded. I feel immediately more safe, comfortable, and I can take my time in this interaction rather than having to get the answer right for you, right for the audience.

34:05Like I might have been going like this. I was going to say before we pointed that out, that it's really self -fulfilling. Like the intern who's on edge, who's dropping the paper, is then going to make certain behaviors, which are going to kind of reinforce their insecurity in low status, which is then might be pointed out, they might notice it themselves, which makes them feel shit again, which makes them more on edge in Twitch U, which is going to increase the probability that they conduct some kind of behavior, which is, and it's just downward spiral where you're like, you feel stuck at the bottom of that.

34:35And you're saying that by influencing the things you've described, you know, moving a bit slower, being expansive with your body, you can start to trigger the loop from the other way. You can start to make yourself feel safe. If you feel safe, you're more likely to do the higher valley things, which make you feel safe. And you spiral up, but it's potentially. Yes. Yeah. This is not an insight unique to me. Tony Robbins, when at his events, I don't know if you've gone, they talk about incantations, or one of the things that he does is prior to going on stage and he advises people to do this before they have a big moment, is he will like bang his chest and go, oh, oh, oh, oh, and his Tony Robbins way.

35:13And he'll have oftentimes a phrase that is like, I'm here to inspire. or like, I love myself. I feel wonderful. And I would do this before I went out, right? I would, before I got in the taxi, before I went anywhere, I would go, I love myself. I love myself. I love myself. And I would just build this physical body energy connection. And it's real. It happens. It makes a dramatic impact on how you show up because oftentimes you only get 30 seconds, right? It's not a lot of time when you're sitting down in that interview before the person starts to form in opinion about you. So going in with that that energy that is like look I approve of me and I'm going to have the body language communication that tells you that that's how I feel people often pick up on that.

35:58You can think of interactions as two people who are storms of beliefs encountering one another. And if my storm of belief is I'm not really sure about this. I don't really think I deserve this job and you probably shouldn't talk to me and your storm of belief is I don't know a lot about this guy, but let's find out. I'm gonna win. You're gonna pick that up. And you're gonna, you know, I don't think this guy deserves the job, whatever. But if the belief is, I deserve to be here. I love myself. I can be comfortable. I can be human. And I'll be okay if this doesn't go the way that I'd like. That's what wins out in these.

36:32It is the higher conviction belief that often bleeds through in interaction and becomes the one that defines that relationship, at least for that limited time in that context. It's funny because I think about my nonverbal cues all the time. I meet so many people in so many different contexts. And a lot of the time I'm tired and my head has a million tabs open. So I try and influence how I'm showing up with my body language and eye contact. And outside of the things we've discussed, is there anything else that you think I can do to try and leave? I don't want to be rude. That's what I don't want to be.

37:11I was going to say I want to be warm, but there's something, I want to be myself, I don't want to be rude, accidentally rude. So you worry that you might come across sometimes? Sometimes, yeah. Because I don't know, you meet people, like my assistant Sophie, she walked in here and I, hey, yeah! She's just got like 24 serving energy. And I ain't got that. I'm not that guy. And I'm not going to fake it. So, yeah. And I've never been good at faking it. But is there anything else that I could accidentally be making people dislike me just with small things? No, I can say the areas where I felt most connected to you, which is I think the opposite of rude.

37:48Rude is like I'm not interested in you as a person. The areas where I felt most connected to you is where one of us I can't went there first and like said the thing that was real. It's the moments where you stop neither of us is trying to perform at all for the camera and there's still a sense of the audience is there but yeah that's that's where I feel any rudist is no gone. Interesting and when you say that I think about like everyday interactions and is there ever a situation where like going there first is a little bit too strong. Try it this is what I would say so the the thought is the one that you have everyone has right it's it's no I can't because otherwise if they didn't have that thought they would have already done it, right?

38:32I will tell you a brief story. My brother reminded me of today as we were driving in. I was like, I need my charisma stories. And he said, you tell the one about me. So you brought the hoes in the green room. Yeah, yeah. We went to a networking event. And for whatever reason that day, I was just in this zone of, I'm going to be a professional because this is a networking event. And the channel wasn't established at this point. And he came with me. And so I'm going in there and I'm going and then we threw the line and filling out my card, what's your name, Charlie? You know, what do you do? Okay, I'm getting my information.

39:05I put my badge on, I walk through it, and he goes behind me and they say, what's your name? He says, dragon. He says, excuse me, I said, no, no, right dragon on the card is gonna be great. And so he then starts a conversation with her and they're like just being playful. And he puts a dragon on his chest and I'm going in trying to impress people with my professionalism. And people are like, what's up? He's like, dragon here? and he was a hit, right? He didn't have anything to do with the networking event. He didn't have anything to do with the context of why people were there, but the interest that he got was so much immediately more than I was getting, being the one that actually had the business that was somewhat related to the thing.

39:45And so even I believe that these rules on how we should engage are set in stone. And what I think few people have done, if you think of your entire life, you're either hitting it perfect, undershooting or overshooting. Everyone's fears of overshooting, but they spend almost all of their lives undershooting. Overshooting is in coming on too strong. Yeah, and it's okay, but there's type one and type two errors, right? And if there's a perfect middle ground of like, wow, like that was a trauma dump on that person would be in overshare. Or like, ooh, maybe shouldn't crack that joke at a funeral, would be going their first type of a thing.

40:22And we have less than a dozen of those usually in our life. And we have hundreds and thousands of undershooting. So what I'm encouraging people to do is take the risk of the overshoot because you're already missing. Like you're under what is available to you in terms of the potential to create connections. And the question here is, which I think informs all of this is, is your goal to blend in, get through and not make a splash? Or is your goal what, what is your goal? And for me, it's like, I want to connect. I want to connect with the people that would most connect with me. And in order to do that, I have to be willing to be seen.

40:59Okay, so on the other end of this, what are the mistakes people make that cause disconnection? Talking about yourself is that? I don't think so. What in what sense? So like if you walk into a room and you immediately start talking about yourself, is that going to be, if you're over talking? Good question. It's about, do people have opt -in points? So are you are you stopping and giving the person a chance to reopt into that line of communication? So this is again one of the things we work on on those initial questions is Okay, you want to you want to share your values early in the interaction But am I just going to give you my life story right now?

41:34I'm not giving someone a chance to opt in but if I make it three to five sentences and I say you know I grew up I grew up on the west coast and it was perfect because there was surf everywhere everywhere And then I met my wife but she's super close to her family, and I just wanted to be a family man. So now I live in the middle of the country, and whatever, you give like three hooks that people can hook into, and then you're done. That's fine. But some people don't give a chance for anyone to step in and get a word in it as wise. So that's another piece that I think. And I could also ask them, right, they serve or something.

42:05Yes, exactly. But also, you will see that sometimes, early in an interaction, if you indicate these points of like people, people will often comment on what you have to say. They won't, you don't need to ask them necessarily. Like if you give that thing that they like, you often don't have to, like they will jump in with the thing that connects to it. So interesting, you know throughout this conversation you've repeatedly made reference to the fact that connection happens at a deeper level, but also the paradox is that we don't walk around offering the deeper level. Which is what I've always figured out and found out in this podcast is the deeper the conversation, the more I feel like connected to the person.

42:46Yeah. And yeah, it's really interesting. I was just thinking about interactions that I've even had today. And you know, like the person that I spoke to in the gym, what I've rolled up to them and what could I have said to them that would have been, God has passed the fluffy small talk. Cause I bet it's one in the gym that I've known for loosely known. Yeah. And it was one of those interactions where they're like, Hey, how are you? You're in LA now? Hey, yeah, you where you can live. I'm like, I don't know. And then like, so, yeah, fires. Did you, you okay? Yeah. Yeah. And I just, so let's do this.

43:16How, where are you going to live? I think I even probably asked you or everyone's asking because I'm posting on Instagram. Yeah. Take a person in the gym. You don't know anything about them. And I know context. It's going to be dependent on what you want to learn about them. What, what types of things do you wish you could connect over more? And I know there's this sense of like whatever they want, but like you clearly care about business, you clearly care like what opportunities do you want to open up for yourself? Do you want to find a surf buddy? Do you want to find a what is it? Yeah, so in that particular conversation, I think because I'm kind of new here, maybe what I would have been interested in, is I actually really wanted to know something about their professional life that they told me about previously.

43:55But also I'm like looking for friends here. Yeah, cool things to do, people to see new networks. Amazing. You got it. So it's, you're where you're going to live. You're like, honestly, I'm not sure. I'm looking for cool places to live, cool places to go, new networks of people. Well, I should have fucking said that. Yeah, and it's, so I think it's what we mentioned earlier, but the thing that happens is that people try to get through rather than connect. And I think that informs a lot of the questions that people have. They say, yeah, but couldn't it go wrong? It's like, yes, it could, but you have to consider that not connecting is also it going wrong.

44:26Like the number of chances that you meet to connect with your potential spouse, potential incredible friend. I don't want to be nightmarish or scary for people, but like the amount of incredible people that have walked in and out of all of our lives is satan, right? Because we didn't say the thing and we didn't it's like, oh my gosh, you guys, what if connected so well? If just one of you could have like put it out there the thing that you were interested in, but it just doesn't happen 99 % of the time. There's a certain individual listening right now who you really wants to connect. In fact, they feel so disconnected and so lonely in their life.

45:01And they're hearing everything you say, but there's a barrier that has always stopped them adding one more sentence, going deeper with the stranger. And no matter how much they listen to this kind of advice, they still go through their life in this state of kind of getting through life, not connecting. Do you have any idea, A, is that true? Like does that person exist and have you met them in your audience? and be like, what is step one to starting to break down that barrier? Because I think I even feel a little bit, as you were speaking, I was thinking, yeah, like, why didn't I say that in the gym today?

45:34Like, what is it about me that meant that I just tried to get through and get back to the weights? It's like a bad habit or... I think there's a number of things. In your case, and I've experienced this, I don't know if you have this, but when you get into a position that is a lovely one to be in, of relative power, right? Like people want to come on the show, they want to know what you're up to, they maybe want to go to the parties that you're going to. One of the ways to avoid having to constantly set and enforce boundaries is to shine less bright. And so I don't know if you feel this, but I noticed myself not following some of my own advice these days.

46:13And when I reflect on why it's because if I say that I have a YouTube channel and they say how many subscribers, And I say how many subscribers, then they won my phone number, then they won my list. And in order just to circumvent all of that, you know, yeah, yeah, I like work from home. You know, I like I will shine less bright. And I realized this years ago when I was doing breakdowns and I was doing all of these famous people, I'm like, I'm going to do one on Justin Bieber because he was such a bright, excited young kid. And then I looked at him at the time, he was 16 to 18, he was on Jimmy Fallon and he was so flat.

46:46And I was like, why is he so flat? And then he cracked a joke and the audience, it wasn't even funny. It was. Oh my God. And so any if you get to a position where any sort of output from you calls in this just wave of attention and energy, people often shut that down, which is a sad thing. And I want to stop doing that. People shut themselves down. Yes, they shut themselves down. Because then you have to have boundaries. And you have to tell that person, hey, I don't give out my Instagram. or I don't want to trade numbers, or you have to find a way to navigate disappointing other people that are interested in going, having a deeper connection that you don't feel it with them.

47:25Does that happen with like beautiful people as well? Because they're almost certainly. And how do they just get it all the time everywhere they're going? People are trying to connect. Yeah. Well, and I think, you know, in terms of things to watch out for, I didn't realize this because I do think it's not necessarily a good thing, but young women, I think, realize this as because they hit puberty, that there's gonna be people interested in you that don't really want to get to know you, right? They're interested in you because you're beautiful. They're just new for these other reasons. Same thing tends not to happen with young men.

47:55And so I got to 19 and I wasn't wanted in any of the locations that I was at, right? And so there was a lady's night, but I couldn't get in. And so people were very honest with me. I got direct, clear feedback about the type of people that wanted to connect with me. And if someone did, it was only ever because they wanted the pleasure of my company. There was nothing to get from knowing me. When things started to boom, I was not prepared for the ways that people adjust and manipulate when they perceive that someone has power. And so people entered my life that I thought liked me and I realized later liked my ability we provide a paycheck or am I able to do this?

48:43And it was very sad for me. It was really, really difficult to experience. But as I withdrew and stopped making videos and said, you know, I'm not running this business. My co -founder is gonna take, you know, he's in charge of the paychecks from here on out. The people that almost immediately withdrew from me was, I'm very grateful to have seen it, but was unprepared for the transactional nature that can happen when you start to accumulate power. And I say that because there's a spectacular young man, but it's true of women as well, just be aware that as you grow and hopefully become more powerful in the world, the level of deception and the level of even just in the lightest like people trying to please and make you happy is going to escalate.

49:36And you're going to need to develop a discernment that I just never needed when I was in my young 20s. To understand who's trying to manipulate you and get things from you and what's real. Yes. To understand this subtle difference between like, who likes me for me and who likes me for these status things that I can, I'm connected to or can provide. And yeah. Yeah. I mean, is there any such advice you can give someone to figure out whether they're being used or the relationship is authentic and real? Yeah. Well, I can give some not to do. That's where I'm at today. This is niche. But if you're a business owner, be very careful about making a single, I made a single person in my point of contact to the business.

50:27And that meant that any feedback that came from the front lines of the business was coming up, funneled through him and spoken to me. And any thing that I said to him was then distributed to the business. And I wasn't doing enough direct connecting with people on the ground. And what happened over a course of years is I learned, and I didn't find this for years, is that I was being a generous word would be like, there was some fudging of the truth, and then there were outright lies. The very, very careful about making one person your eyes and ears in any aspect of your life. But I did that in the business and didn't touch base and connect directly with people and say, hey, how are you feeling?

51:09Is this true? And I lost those direct connections. And it wasn't required in a company in my size. It was just a foolish, novice entrepreneur mistake that I'd made. Happened so many times. Happened a lot in business. People are listening to this now. If you've got, if you're working in a business and there's a manager in between you and maybe the top of the business Manages have a tremendous power to control narrative narrative. Yeah, everyone wants power I would say I think that's a fair statement pretty much everyone wants power and we can define whatever power means But I guess there's too past to attaining power.

51:40There's delivering value for people and being useful and then there's What you described there which is

51:50is manipulating the situation so that you're perceived as being necessary. Yeah, and it's making sure that your name is on the project, right? There's an in a group project. There's always people that are doing the majority of the work and there's people that are making sure that they're presenting the most important piece or making sure that their name is on the project. No, it's a system. So, ship hats. Some of the videos you've made on your channel before speak to this type of behavior. Yes. What were the things that you missed that are like characteristic of narcissists? Because I know you've made videos about this subject where you analyze other interactions with other people.

52:27But for someone who might not be aware of some of those subtle cues, what kinds of things? My co -founder and I had several conversations about this person where we said, man, we had these dozens of times. I wouldn't be shocked to find out that he was lying on as job application. And we would just say that to each other. And so if you find that there's just a doubt that you don't believe that somebody says that they were a very successful and a thing, it just doesn't look like it. You know, there's that phrase in business, which is, if there's doubt, there's no doubt when it comes to hiring and firing, I didn't follow that.

53:02So just pay attention to your doubts. And if you need to write them down, but it's the voicing of it in a weird way was a way of blowing off steam and not addressing the core issues. So that was one thing. And then I think the last thing is it's this, I felt guilty verifying. I felt guilty verifying his job application. I felt guilty going to the guy that he said had offered him a job whose number I had and saying, Hey, I wanted to check on this because that would have been an indication that I didn't trust him. And it was my way of saying, I trust you. I know you won't hurt me. and maybe you can trust me that I won't hurt you too.

53:39Never mind that they were not reciprocal relationship, but the reason that I'm so interested in these sorts of things is because I had by the time I was 28 or 29 built the life that I dreamed of when I was 18. I had the girlfriend that I wanted. I had more money than I dreamed of. I had the dream job. And it fell apart because these core things hadn't been addressed. And when I say fell apart, it wasn't like the world took it for me. It was like my own I fell apart in my ability to sustain them. Or it fell together. Thank you. That's the truth. No, that's the truth, man. I'm so grateful for the ways in which it broke down.

54:19And I think there's many times in my life, and when I've seen other people where they get fired, or the thing doesn't work out, or the first business fails, and you're like, oh, it fell apart, and you're right. You get five years down the line. It's like, know man that that felt together. Yeah, because if it wasn't you being your true aligned authentic stuff, whatever that means, then it wasn't real anyway. It was something you were holding together. And it sounded like it was exhausting to hold that together. Yes, unconsciously very. I shouldn't be exhausting to hold together. So if you're if you're exhausted holding your life together in the relationships, then it's not sustainable and it's not real.

54:53Yeah. Well, I'm curious and you're taking business on this because I've since found business mentors that there's so many mentors that are like, here's how to build your business so that you can and sell it. And the implicit understanding there is that this thing is a pain in the butt. You don't wanna have it, and you'll be happier when you can get rid of it and exchange for a lot of money. And there's a guy, Joe Hudson, who I've mentioned before who talks about, you know, what if a billion dollar business was not a business that was valued at a billion dollars, but it's a business that you wouldn't sell for a billion dollars?

55:22The things that you got to do, like if you had to sell it and you could never do that thing again, you wouldn't take that deal. And when you think, how would I run this business if it had to be my billion dollar business today? What sort of things would I allow myself to do? What sort of things would I cut out? It's a total paradigm shift on business. It's an amazing question to ask yourself. What an amazing question to ask yourself. So the way that I heard that was, if I wanted to run this business like a business that I would never be prepared to sell, what are the decisions I would make today?

55:53Okay, so you'd get rid of the toxic people that are destroying your piece. irrespective of how many clients you might lose or the short -term net loss of that or how it might discontrol people. You would probably set a pace that you could go out for 50 years and you'd probably disregard like metrics and growth numbers and stuff like that. You'd focus on doing work that you truly love, not what the audience want, not what the clients are paying you for, but what you truly love. And you'd work with stakeholders and partners that treated you with the the respect in the courtesy and the same energy, love, curiosity, fun that you need to do this for 50 years.

56:38So you like wouldn't work with arseholes. Yeah. Even if they were paying you a lot of money, you'd say no to a couple of million dollars. I guess that's my answer to that question. Yeah. That's that's the answer to that question. Oh, is it okay. Well, right? I mean, of course it is. is the opposite of what you would do if you were building to sell, which is I'm gonna get someone else to be the frontman because I don't wanna do it. I'm gonna have them do the boring thing that I don't like. It's, yeah, instead of, no, no, no, no, like why are we doing these things that we don't like? You were in tolerate.

57:05You were in tolerate. There would be zero tolerance. Exactly, and you may or may not wind up with a billion dollars, but what I have found is as I lean into that, that's where these leaps and breakthroughs are. It's linear thinking to figure out how to please the audience and please other people in most cases. But there's these exponential leaps that you make when you're like, what do I want to see in the world? That's where you go from zero to one. That's where you make the thing that has never been made because you want it. Yeah. So... It's hard place to get to. You've got to have, I think, a life failure a few times before you kind of figure out what you've described there.

57:36And I've certainly related my life to that. So even when I think about this podcast, I speak to Jack. I think I had this come to say with Jack the other day. I was like, in order for me to do this for like 20 years, What am I going to need to do today? What am I going to need to sacrifice today in order to do it for 20 years? I can kind of tell you like just a top -line thing is when a guest request comes on my list and it says they have, this has happened, they have 70 million followers and their stories there, what they've done, etc. And it's like this, Steve, we know that this is going to get huge numbers.

58:08But I don't want to sit there for two and a half hours and speak to this person because I have no interest in fucking pop music in South America. I know that the long -term decision to do the show for 20 years means in that moment I have to say no. Because if there's multiple days in a row where I shut up to this set and I sit down and I wasn't looking forward to it, I'm gonna end up where you said you ended up, which is that feeling of like burnt out broken lack of meaning. What gives you the strength to say no to the superficial win? when especially when there's like a, this would be great for you.

58:45Wisdom of fucking up so many times in my life when I did that. Burn. And also being able to look forward at someone like Jorogen and watch his interviews where he talks about this and realizing that this principle of if you want to go far, you have to play like long -term games and make long -term decisions. And so now knowing what a short -term decision is versus a long -term decision and actually being really lined with Jack, who runs the show. Because me and Jack are aligned on these things now quite intuitively. And we've kind of learnt together. We've made the short -term decision, gone, fuck, that was a bad idea.

59:20So you kind of build this collective wisdom that the right thing to do for the long -term health of the show is having a set of principles. And I really wish people understood that, because especially when the show gets big, there's so much pressure to change. I've got a good example. I wasn't going to say this, but I think I should probably share because this is the diversity and the sharing of our diaries here. On the last episode we uploaded was a debate format with four guys on it and we're talking about the world and stuff. It's the first time we've ever done that. And I had a meeting with some people the day after that episode came out and someone in the room was saying, oh, we should add a woman to the panel because the optics are bad.

1:00:01And I remember what I said in that room. I said, we should never ever do something purely for optics. The reason why we should add a woman to the panel that we just did, and this is something we will do in future, is because we genuinely believe it will make the conversation better. And I said to them, and there was 12 of my teammates who work on this team in the room, I said, if we ever do stuff for optics, we slowly slip away from our integrity. And there's a paradox there, because you think the high integrity thing to do is to cater to optics, what things look like, but actually the high integrity thing to do is to ignore virtue signaling, and to do what's best for the conversation.

1:00:37And I just reiterated in that room that, like, the reason why in the future we're going to make these panels more diverse is because we believe that it's better for the audience. It's better for the conversation. That's the only reason we'll ever do it. And that's the prime example of learning over time that you've got to ignore virtue signaling, you've got to ignore, because these things come and go. What's virtuous today will be, like, cancelable tomorrow. And you've got to stay anchored of set of principles. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We digress. No, we do not at all. That is the second six charismatic mindsets that I talk about.

1:01:10That is the second, which is I care more about my character than my reputation. Let's do that then. What are these six charismatic mindsets? So we talked a little bit about the body language and the stuff. And really I land much more in the mindsets and the ways of being. And this is to me closer to the core. First one is no matter what, I will be okay. And I feel nervous on the way to this conversation that we're going to have them in the car getting over here. I'm thinking do I need to prepare no matter what I'll be okay. Right. I go in here. And this is true in any social scenario. We can often bring life or death stakes to the interview to asking the girl out to whatever it is.

1:01:48Literally just saying the phrase in your head yourself no matter what I will be okay has this calming clarifying thing that helps you focus on what you actually want to do and get out of the circumstance. and helps you stop focusing on how do I be safe? Because how do I be safe is how do I do less? How do I say less? And just kill any chance of connection, right? So that's the first one. Second, I care more about my character than my reputation. It's very easy. Would have been like, for you in that moment, to, oh shoot, what are people going to think? The optics of this are not good. The leadership that you demonstrated by not just disagreeing, but by revealing your character will pay dividends not just in how you guys handle optics.

1:02:28It teaches everyone on the team what matters, which is fundamentally the character, what is the case, not what looks like it is the case. And you also were able to bring it back. And I think this is the thing where we're talking about listening to criticism is like, you didn't just hear it and reject it. No, we're not gonna have a woman on the podcast. It was if we do that, we do it for the right reasons. Right? So I care more about my character and also the optics of, oh, I screwed up, now I have to fix it or I screwed up, I have to dig my heels and think a lot of this is going on right now with Elon Musk and the salute that he did is, I can't say, hey, I made a mistake.

1:03:03I can't say I didn't mean that by it. I can't do any of that. I have to dig in because I don't wanna be seen to be weak or I don't wanna be seen to be. This is a loop thing though. I, let's do it. Let's do it. Let's do it. I'm writing this video. Yeah, so Elon Musk, if you've ever seen him on stage, he is a very eccentric. A little bit awkward sometimes individual who goes up on stage and says, and I literally seen videos where he's like, and on the red carpet, I don't know if you saw that, it's like that red carpet walk that he did where he starts going like this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's making weird faces.

1:03:40This is him, so I'm not defending him at all, but if you have a lens of empathy and you look at the bigger picture and you also say, listen, this guy has no track record of not saying what he thinks. So if he tells me that that wasn't what he was doing in that moment, he has no track record of like holding his tongue. Yeah. And it's funny because I consider myself to be a political but one of the things that really turned me off when I saw the commentary around that was the left side of politics didn't seem to exert any What's the word? It was just, the reaction was so predictable. I watched the video and thought, I know he's just being Elon Musk.

1:04:27That's what he doesn't stage, just a bit wacky. And then the whole like, oh no, he's a Nazi. This is a Nazi salute. I just thought I find it to be disingenuous. Yeah. Well, there's a ton here. Politically, I think this is why the left loose his elections. Yeah, I know you. There's so much winning, there's so much happening that you could critique today. Trump launched a meme coin. You know what I mean? Like, you could speak on so many things. And to put the focus on this is why they continue to lose elections in the United States of America, because I agree with you. I don't see any reason to believe that this is a hidden reveal of Elon's politics as regards the Third Reich.

1:05:08The guy is a weird dude who moves weird and he literally afterwards said, my heart goes out to you. And his response to it on Twitter, which is complicated by the mass media, right? Because there's, I'm going to make this video too. The ability to say sorry in personal relationships is fundamental and critical. And if you can't own your mistakes and apologize to someone, you will erode every relationship that you ever have because you will make mistakes. And if you can't repair them, they just, it's like a bridge that never gets any maintenance. It doesn't work. Do you think he should have said sorry?

1:05:39This is the question when we're talking about a couple things, a mass media. And then I think there's a space between sorry and that wasn't my intention. And instead what he did was, because I think what he should have said was, that wasn't my intention. What he said instead was he made a bunch of puns about different Nazi stuff, like random things. But do I think he should say, sorry, no, I don't think he should say sorry. He said sorry, can you imagine the mainstream media? Exactly. Oh my gosh. Exactly. So this is the problem I'm going to make this video, which is if you look at the most this is this is a tragic the way that we have culturally ruined saying sorry like with our media because if you look at the most powerful men, and rotate Donald Trump, Elon Musk, they all got the memo.

1:06:25Never apologize. Never, ever, ever. It doesn't matter what you did, never apologize. And what do you get as a result? More power, right? It like because Because when you do say sorry, even if it's appropriate, and even if it would have been appropriate in a private circumstance to do that, the outcome in the media loop, if you look at, you could take someone going back to like a ZZN, sorry, who had a MeToo situation where the girl was unhappy with how the date went, but it was all consensual, but she felt pressured by him. And he went on to like very deep heartfelt apology, destroyed, you know, end of his show completely over for him.

1:07:03Years later people look back at that story with a different cultural lens and go That okay, I yes, you're sorry for that of course that makes sense because that's that's the appropriate responses I'm really sorry. I didn't that wasn't what I wanted that wasn't my intent. I didn't want it to go that way Or I didn't want you to feel that way as well and That human response translated to the mass media is so destructive to your career, which is it's really tragic because because that's the type of thing that you would want to have two people hash out and find resolution to themselves, but doesn't appear to be possible in global media today.

1:07:43It happens on both sides. It's the right mischaracterizing the left, the left mischaracterizing the right. And especially through this election cycle, I just saw that over and over again because there's someone who genuinely believes when I'm at home alone and I'm watching these videos, genuinely believes that I'm apolitical. I find good things on both sides. I find things that on the left that I think that's correct. And I find things on the right, especially as I relate to some things around business that I think that's the best thing. And I look at both sides, I think objectively. And I'm saying I think because I never really know my own biases.

1:08:16And I think you're both lying about each other. And this is a kind of world we've gotten into now where, as you say, it's like there's no hope for truth anymore. It seems. Do you own a business or do you work in marketing? If that's you, listen up for a valuable opportunity from our show sponsor, LinkedIn. I'm an investor in about 40 odd companies and while they operate in different industries, they all face one challenge, maybe the most important challenge when it comes to marketing. Getting their brand in front of the right audiences. We can probably all think of times when we've been scrolling on social media and received a mad that absolutely wasn't relevant to us.

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1:09:24Is Trump charismatic? The most charismatic. Yeah. Yeah. So, if we interpret charisma as the ability to succeed based on force of personality, right? If that's one view of it, the ability to influence and succeed, you have to give it to people that you might not agree with. And Donald Trump absolutely gets that. So does Alexandria, Acasio, Cortez for the record, right? These people that are not there for their technical prowess, but are there for their ability to speak, definitely. I think what I've heard is that he's likeable in person, like a lot of people that meet him like him. And he has this thing that I haven't totally identified.

1:10:03That drives the left crazy, but it needs to be, rather than being demonized, I think it needs, I want to explore it. I want to understand what it is. Is he's like very tough to stay mad at. in the sense that what he did, he's repeatedly in his base forgiven for things that would have been upsetting to them and would be upsetting if any other Republican said or did the things that he does. There is a relationship, I think, that he has with Shane. And so if you look, it's like the first debate that he ever did. Boom, here comes the question. You call women fat pigs. You know, this is career -ender right here.

1:10:40What are you going to say? You've called women, you don't like fat pigs, dogs, slabs, and disgusting animals. Your Twitter account? Only Rosie O'Donnell. Well, the audience erupts and Megan Kelly can't get a word and it was an entire campaign of that, like Teflon. Nothing sticks to him. And so, you don't have to like it for there to be something meaningful there. And I actually want to go back because I think the most impressive thing that he's done is not when the presidency, I think the Democrats fielded some less than excellent candidates, but my God the way he took over the Republican primaries was insane.

1:11:18Because if you go back and watch those debates, which I currently am, the first time. The first time. Oh yeah, I watched it. Tirely against him. He doesn't have an audience on his side. There is no one that is on his side. And to watch him go down the line, take out Jeb, take out Ted, take out Marco, and win the entire audience blow by blow is fascinating to me. You're someone that analyzes this. Yeah. So what did you, because I've watched all of those debates, in fact, I've watched them so many times. There's Republican debates with like, Jeff in his week energy and, mm -hmm. I can't remember what he was calling Ted Cruz.

1:11:52It's like, Lion Cruz or something. Lion Ted. Yeah, Lion Ted. I've watched all of those, but you watch it and you go, this is a typical behavior. Yeah. This is not how to be a president. What is he doing right there? I think that is the thing he is like, he is him through and through. Like, there's not a crack in him. And so many times this is, when people criticize you or criticize anybody, one of the things you'll see is, let's say that there's a comedian and they're on stage and somebody's heckling him and saying that you can't tell that joke. That's bad. If you crack in that moment, more of the audience says, oh, I don't know if you should have said that.

1:12:28But when you double down and triple down and quadruple down and you actually take more people with you and this guy doesn't crack. He Anytime he's attacked. I don't think he has defense in his repertoire like every time it's offense So whenever somebody comes at him he doesn't respond. He barely responds. That's not true He goes you should see what he's doing. You know, it's always always offense. He's willing to brawl in those situations and I think We are animals. There is a, especially in that Republican primary, people like Jeb, there's a simple thing of like, oh, this guy just owned that.

1:13:03Right? He just completely made him seem like a child who was interacting with an adult. Like as he whimpered away or trailed off, this is something that I teach people is, when you're speaking, just as a matter of habit, and you can break this rule once you've established it. but if you're a shy person, finish your sentence before you let someone cut you off. Find a period. And then the other person can jump in. But if you're, but if we're talking and you jump in at, and I just switch it away, it's, has this sense of fragility, weakness, and it encourages people to speak over you. If you look especially at the first debate, the people that he was arguing against got run off constantly.

1:13:44And they wait, they hoped that the moderator would bring them back into the debate. And it's not ideal. The politics works like that. But it was, it was a bludgeoning game. It was just like he makes these people look weak in front of them as he as he dictates the pace and what's going to happen. And he's not listening to anybody and the audience starts lining up behind him. It was, yeah, I have to go back in the video. We'll have much more precise moments of this. But that is what I've seen as just I've started to compile things. So that was the second of the Christmas. We're gonna do this. Number three.

1:14:18And, well, so I'm glad that we're doing this order because it gets the caveats out of the way, which is the third one is I have impeccable honesty and integrity. And you can see how exactly what we were talking about. I was like, well, not really. There's ways in which power moves, not always following honesty and integrity. But when I think of that deeper form of charisma, the kind where like, Socrates, Jesus, you know, like the people that are not just charismatic for time, but are charismatic forever. And we look to as paragons of who we want to be and have this leadership quality that is not just transactional, but moves people to become better versions of themselves, which is ultimately what I aspire to.

1:14:58And I suppose I've used charisma in two different terms. One is, can you influence? And the other is, do you awaken the best in people? If we're using that second term, I am honest and I have high integrity as fundamental to that because what I found is that even if you tell small lies, for instance, you're running late, and you text your friend, I'm on the way. You're not on the way. You got to brush your teeth. You got to get ready. You train this learning in yourself that is sometimes I lie. Sometimes I'm not to be trusted. And when you lie sometimes, you hurt your ability to speak with conviction all the time.

1:15:33Because there's some part of your brain that is going, M -I, telling the truth. M -I saying, the real thing, because sometimes I don't. And so it influences your capacity to influence with conviction and for people to know that you stand by your belief. What's really interesting is something, exactly what you've said, I noticed in a friend of mine, and I had to say, we're really great friends, and we've been friends for a long, long time. But I can't trust you, because I see you telling small lies to other people. That's so brave of you. Which makes me think that you tell, when you speak to me, I have to figure out what the truth is.

1:16:13And this is something which I think ties into point three here, which is if you observe someone willing to tell tiny lies to other people, even exaggerating stories knowingly, when you know the truth, you know that X didn't happen. You go, oh my God, maybe the things they tell me as well aren't. Yep, true. Yeah, so it rose, it rose at all different places. One of the things that I didn't catch early on that you just brought up was I sometimes had like, there were things that I wouldn't say, like I wouldn't have that conversation with a friend. I wouldn't bring that to them. And that is a lapse in integrity because that's, look, I have this opinion, I have this feeling, I, you're someone I care about, but I'm not going to say it to you because I don't want to create friction or I don't want to do this.

1:16:55I'm not going to lie to you about it. I'm not going to tell you I trust you implicitly, but I'm just not going to bring it up. It took me nine years to get to that point with this person. It's hard. It's very hard, but when you do that God the it is such a deep form of love. It is such a deep form of respect and It respects the deepest part of that person which is I know that these these are your behaviors But there's a you in there that is deeper than these habits that you have And I want to speak to that person because I want you to know that I would like to connect with you and I would like to trust you, but I can't because of this.

1:17:28I think that is an aspect of friendship that is often overlooked, which is, you've got your friends that you have fun with, you've got your friends that celebrate you, you know. Which friends do you have that will lovingly pull you aside and tell you these sorts of things? There are usually vanishingly few. And when you get them, if you're someone who watches this show, probably it's deeply appreciated, especially when it's done in a loving and respectful way. So when you can be that for someone else, it's like, it's yeah, it's a relationship maker. But you're right. And what you said earlier, I have to be the one that leads with it.

1:18:00What's that phrase you used? Well, that's the six one. Yeah. Number four. I don't need to convince anyone of anything. Interesting. Yeah. So a lot of times we think I need this girl to like me. I need to make the sale. If this employee joins the company, it's gonna be great. You know, I need I need this particular individual to like me. All the tips and tricks and mindsets and whatever it is that we're talking about today, I hope you take broadly to your life to increase the percentage, to increase the odds that are something good. But with any particular individual, you do not want to drop into convincing them.

1:18:39You want to live invitationally to people. There's an invitation to connect. There's an invitation to sell. I'm willing to go there and tell you more about the product. I'm willing to share more about the things that I care about. But when you get stuck on convincing people, they feel that there's something missing in you that needs something from them, right? And when you do that, particularly with loose connections, it's very alienating. Now, there are times when it's, this isn't about convincing, where it's appropriate in a relationship like a husband and a wife to communicate clearly your needs.

1:19:12This doesn't mean you convince them, but it means you do state what you're wanting and needing in the relationship. But there is like convincing is when you won't drop it, when you won't put it down, that you want to accept someone's answer as it is. And much more important than convincing is filtering. And this is, you know, you could have tried to convince everyone in your initial friend group that they should all be entrepreneurs, they should all do this. And you'd still be there today working on getting the next person to agree and have no businesses and no podcast. But when you stop trying to convince and you reveal yourself, make invitations.

1:19:43I'm going this way who would like to come with me. I'm selling this product who would like to buy it. I, yes, I'm going to learn how to talk about it in a compelling and interesting way that speaks directly to your problems. But am I going to convince you? So much more powerful. This isn't like a pretty incredible sales tip. I was thinking about even on marketing copy when you're trying to sell something. If you're trying to force it down someone's throat versus inviting them, if they're the right type of person for it, to give it a try. And it's the long game too. Like the short game is I need to make rent this month.

1:20:11I need to make a sale. We all have situations in our life where we feel that pressure. But if you build your business or your relationships from this level of I'm not going to convince anybody, the sustainability of them is so much better. Because now you don't have relationships that require you to be like, come on, come out tonight. You know, you want to, you want to do that. You have people that opt in when they want to and can step aside when they don't. And your relationships flow much more organically when you drop the convincing. with or without you energy. Yes. People talk about that. Yes.

1:20:38Yes. Invitational. Yeah. Invitational energy. So the fifth is that I proactively share my purpose. And I think this podcast, like, sets people up to do that in an excellent way. But this is where I talk about early in the interaction. There's so many times where we just don't talk about what we care about. We talk about the small talk, we talk about the weather or the baseball team. and making sure that you are sharing with people the things that you care most deeply about and that you're here to do is so powerful. So, high charisma. I believe high charisma. If you think, I don't know if you remember the show, but it was very influential to me, there were these guys that buried life a long time ago when MTV used to run TV shows.

1:21:19And they were guys who had this their own bucket list. And on every episode they would go scratch an item off of their bucket list and at the end, they would help a stranger in the street. They would say, what's an item on your bucket list? and they would do that with them. And in their second season, one of their bucket list items was play basketball with Obama. And so they walked around Washington DC and just said, hey, we have this thing, we're the buried life. We want to play basketball with Obama or trying to prove that you can live your dream. Can you help? And I just bang, bang, bang down the line.

1:21:48And within like three days, they're in a senator's office, right? Just from sharing, this is what I'm doing. This is what I care about. Can you help? They didn't have anything to exchange. They didn't have anything other than the participation in a dream. And when you are connected to your dream, like the real one, not the one that's like, I want to make enough money. But the one that is, oh my god, that's like, I want to prove to people that anything is possible and it's real. People like to participate in that. They like to give help in order to do that. So what wound up happening is that the Senator reached out.

1:22:20They set up a meeting and Barack flaked. He didn't flaked. He didn't show yet something come up. So they aired the episode and they never got to play with them. Except episode heirs, brocks in the White House with MTV on in the background and he sees these guys, the buried life, talking about how they want to play basketball with Obama. And he contacts his 80s. That's why I haven't played basketball with these guys yet. And the same aide who had heard, he said, well, you had something come up that day. We couldn't do it. He says, get him out here. And so they went and they played basketball at the White House with Barack Obama.

1:22:52and it came from just sharing their purpose with people. Is that what manifestation is? I think if manifestation is just thinking happy thoughts and waiting for them to happen, that to me is wishful thinking. But yeah, if it's putting your energy and your intent and your request for support behind the thing that is most important to you, that's the reality of manifestation. And I think that's why a lot of people like Conor McGregor, you know, when they hit these places, they talk about the power of manifestation. I think they're often misinterpreted because it's not just seeing it or thinking about it.

1:23:31It's putting your full life force behind it, reaching out, asking for help, and contributing your part of the pie as well. I love that. Yeah. I love that. It's really, really important. Number six. Number six. We've said this one before I go first in humanizing the interaction. Humanizing the interaction. Yes, which is to say, whenever you're with a group of people, there is an expected social norm, right? And it is usually less than people wish that it was. It's the thing that you described earlier as, I wish that my employees would get to what's really going on. And it's the ability to be the first one, like I told the story about my brother to crack the joke about the dragon name tag, right?

1:24:15And that made everybody in the event funnier. Now they don't want to crack jokes and they want to be playful. It's the ability to give a compliment first. Sometimes people are afraid that it'll disrupt their status if they're too complimentary and we did talk about how at the beginning of an interaction it's useful to establish fun, trust and respect, but then feel free to pour it on. Right? Compliments and then vulnerability. Right? Going first, sharing the vulnerable thing. There's a fine line of course between trauma a dumps ring and just outpouring without checking if the other person is with you and wanted to go there with you.

1:24:52But yeah, to dive into the thing that is unsettled in you or that hurts or that you're working on and you're not sure about, man, we go there first. It's like the room transforms around that. It's like everyone's like, oh, me too. Yeah, I'm also struggling. Yeah, I also wish we could laugh more. Yeah, I also am really, I love that person's sense of style, but didn't want to be weird and say so. So when you go first in humanizing interaction, it is, it is the essence of leadership. Sharing your imperfections. I saw this in one of your videos. That's kind of what you're talking about there, right?

1:25:25It's been willing to show the chinks in your own armor. Yes, it is. I think a lot of people like me have an idea that charisma is looking like someone else that they admire. It is and they don't know that person's internal dialogue, right? They don't know all the internal question is going on side of them and When instead you can start with where you are which so people will ask me how do I deal with anxiety? And one of the things that I've said and I've done it a handful of times on this podcast is speak to it Like I felt nervous when I was coming in here like if the thing comes up inside of you and it feels like you can't say it Give it a risk say it it often creates a depth of connection that that you wouldn't be anticipating What about humor being funny?

1:26:11Being funny? So we haven't talked about this, but there's, I think about charismatic types of people. The five types that I think of are high conviction, authentic, funny, empathetic, and energetic. And so basically, high conviction are people that they're that belief storm, that when they encounter you, they just win. That's kind of a Gregor. Like he's 19 years old, pimple -faced guy, saying he's going to be a champion of the world without a waiver in his eye. Steve Jobs, the story of Mike Scully, who was one of his chief officers who came and worked for him. I don't know if you're familiar with it.

1:26:44Do you know what he said to him? What did he say? So they're having a meeting and Scully's not going to join. And he says, do you want to sell, you want to sell flavored sugar for the rest of your life? Or do you want to come with me and change the world? And Scully was a Pepsi at the time? Yeah, he was a Pepsi. And so he says, Oh, that's pretty good. Yeah, that's a kind of trip. Yeah, yeah. And there's this belief that I'm going to change the world. and this solidness behind it, that's high conviction. Donald Trump is high conviction, right? When he loses electionism, lose elections, right? It's a level of certainty that he's gonna win, that it's just next level.

1:27:19So that's one type of charisma. It's incredibly powerful. There's downsides to it. It can be difficult to integrate feedback, and I think you've seen that with like Conor McGregor. You know, it's when you develop high conviction, it's also really important to have some areas of your life where you're able to listen, and we're able to integrate feedback. Anyway, there's the authentic type. This is, I think Trump has a degree of this as well. This is number two, right? It's number two. But the way that I'm, it's a different kind of authenticity, I suppose, than Trump, which is, I trust this person exactly to say what they think in front of me, whether I like it or I don't.

1:27:55And I think Joe Rogan got big off the back of this. This was the, like, if Joe disagrees with that guy, he's not gonna be rude to him, but you're gonna get, you're gonna know about it, right? He is going to have his comedian friend on that he wants to have on because he wants to have him on. And when you do authenticity over a period of time, it creates just unshakable trust. Like I've seen this person do things that could be damaging to our relationship and just continue to move forward. So I know that they're not trying to please me with their behavior. And I can trust the things that they say and I can trust the things that they do and I can rely on them.

1:28:29I feel safe to rely on them. That's the authentic type. Third type is funny. These are your comedians. These people are just fun to be around. Like, you hang out with them, they're cracking jokes the whole time. They bring a levity. Everyone else is talking literally and they're gonna bring in something that is just non -literal. So any comedian is gonna fit this. You're Kevin Hartz, you're whoever. Take your pick. Empathetic, to me, Oprah is the Paragon, but I think you have become the Oprah of the podcasting world. In many ways. I'm not so complimented. But empathetic people are, they do really, really well 101.

1:29:04And they help other people to feel seen, right? They ask a question with this sincerity that makes the other person share the thing that they might not have shared in many other groups. And we all deeply want to feel safe to share ourselves. But we don't because we're in louder groups or all different sorts of things. So when we get in contact with an empathetic person, they might not talk very much, But man, do we leave liking that person? Like, oh, he had a great conversation. We need to do that again. And then the last one is your energetic type. This is probably the easiest one to add. I think of early Will Smith.

1:29:42I think of the way that people walk onto talk shows where they would come onto Jimmy Fallon dancing onto the stage or something like that. This is an individual who may not be very witty with their humor, but they make people smile because the energy that they bring to an interaction is just like two degrees higher than you would expect. So it's, he doesn't need to be funny, ha -ha, can crack a joke, but the guy who's first on the dance floor at the wedding is like, committed to the thing. That's energetic. And I think Jack Black is someone who has a comet. He is funny, like he can crack a joke, but the energy that he brings to everything he does is what sells it.

1:30:20So this comes from commitment to the bit. You don't like start off dancing like this, and then look around and realize nobody likes it and stop. Yeah. It's if you're able to sustain a level of energy, enthusiasm, and positivity that is one or two degrees higher than the people in the room. At first, there's like, I don't know, and then they join in. Because everybody wants to relax and dance and feel better, or at least to witness people doing that. And when it's committed, that's when it really, really works. So when I think about these five charisma types that you talk about, you could be several of them and you could potentially be all of them.

1:30:53Yeah. Yeah. So someone could be high conviction, authentic, funny, energetic, and empathetic. Sure. And is that like the Holy Grail? That's like the singularity where it's universe explodes. No, you're right. You could be. You could be all of these. I do find the conviction and empathetic tend to move in opposites of one another. Like I wouldn't expect Conor McGregor to like hold space for me very well. So they're, but that's not required. Right. You can have a degree of conviction. Hope on them. Yeah. He struck me as being high conviction at times. Yeah. Yes, we can. Yeah. And also empathetic when he cried on the stage after the Sandy Hook thing.

1:31:30I think he's a great example of those moving up together. He's so authentic, he's funny, energetic, I guess. I mean, he was, he rolled people up. He, I mean, he's a generational talent as a politician. He's, yeah. So he's, he's definitely next level. That's the other thing. I've started to look back at some of the presidents that we've had. and we've had some statesmen that have been, you can have your opinion on them, but when I look at the people that have won, they're the charisma candidate and a lot of the cases. Isn't that crazy? I don't think it's that crazy. That's the thing. We tend to overlook it and then pretend that we live in a world based on rubric merit as opposed to this literally a popularity contest.

1:32:11How did this person make me feel? Yeah, how do I feel when I'm around them? Or how do I feel when I witness them on stage? Do I believe that I can trust them without ever having had a one -to -one conversation. So Obama's, he's a charisma freak. He's incredibly high charisma. What you just said there just goes to highlight how important these skills are. Because if you can rise to the top of society and become the leader of the free world, by mastering charisma, like Dave at his job, or like me as a podcaster, it just goes to show that talent and merit and skills and maybe even my education are secondary to my ability to make people feel a certain way.

1:32:49I think in most, I think let me see if this is true. Certainly true in LA, to a ridiculous level. But even in the industry that I was in, which was consulting, I wound up getting off cycle raises, preferential treatment, or even decades later, I feel strange saying it on camera. And it was like I said there were there were better analysts than me. There were guys that I like that I went to to help me with the my work and it was not because I was the best analyst. It was because I had established relationships with people that liked me and wanted me to do well. And it's obvious what is nepotism other than familial connection, right?

1:33:30And so if you just remove the family from it, that's charisma. That's this person cares and wants me to do well and likes me, but it's not nepotism. It's something else. it's a charismatic connection that you have with that person. Your gut and my gut is the home of our digestion and it's also a gateway to better health, but it can be hard to know what's going on in there. Zoe, who sponsors this podcast, has one of the largest microbiome databases on the planet and one of the world's most advanced at home gut health tests. Their blood sugar sensor, which I have in this box in front of me, goes on your arm so you can see how different foods impact your blood sugar.

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1:35:52So the first thing that I always thought about with interviews and trained people to think about was the interview does not start when you land in the room with that person who has got the piece of paper in front of them with your resume. It starts when you leave your house if you're taking an Uber you need to talk to the Uber driver, right? You need to get warm. You need to get comfortable. You need to get those vocal cords moving. You need to be dynamic when you enter the building. If it's a large building and has a security guard, one more sentence. Remember, hey, How's it going? You see a lot of fresh faces in here, you know?

1:36:22Yeah. Hopefully this is not the last time You see me that type of a thing it just makes you feel a little bit more comfortable instead of reviewing Whatever technical stuff that you think you need to know that needs to be dropped before the interview That's either in there or it's not like 15 30 minutes in advance And you upstairs. There's a secretary same thing. There's other candidates same thing by the time you sit down across from that person You're warm You're ready to go and you're not starting from zero in order to be an engaging human because there are going to be those initial questions.

1:36:52Do you get in or right? Do you do this? Just a little bit, a little bit extra and it's going to be a tune to the situation, but it'll come through. And you've opened a couple of tabs on the way here, right? Exactly. Exactly. Like how'd you get in? I bet I met Rick at the door. He's awesome. Right. That's going to help. So that's the number one thing. And then in interviews, there's a, you don't know what questions you're going to get. get asked. But if you can take what you're going to get asked and put it into a story format, and have a beginning, middle, and an end that has like an up, down, up sort of curve to it.

1:37:26And what I mean is that they're going to say, tell me about something that you really struggled with in your career. And if in advance, you have thought through your career and you have the three big moments that happened to you, which is you took over this project, you quit this job and left moved to this one and you did this other thing. And then you backwards figure out the story of those. And so the story has this, agitating, you know, it's got the, you established that I was working at this company and then there was a problem. And then you agitate the problem. It was really bad and no one could solve it, no one could figure it out.

1:37:56And so I did X, Y, and Z. And as a result, it turned out really well. And then this other thing happened. You get three to five of those things that you know are your core stories. You have no idea what questions are coming, but I promise you, you're going to slot those five things into it. So you You will not be surprised in the moment if there's a question that you haven't prepared for or heard because probably there's a story when it comes to this is the fit portion of the interview that you can just you have your story ready and it demonstrates any of the values that you think this company wants, which is um, tenacious, I work hard, I know the industry and I can work well with people.

1:38:29That's built into your stories. And then one tip is that at the end of an interview there's always that moment where they say do you have any questions for us? And what I've seen sitting on the other side of the table is people either ask a question they don't really have because they feel like they're supposed to or they say no, I don't have any questions. And it's just a missed opportunity. And so this one I have to give credit to my co -founder. He came up with and this is one of the things that I did not anticipate. I got the most positive responses. Like I got the job because of this question type of the thing.

1:39:00And the question is, okay, so let's say that this interview went really well and a year from now I got the job and you're looking back. What would I have had to have done in order for you to feel like it was a good decision? Like what things will I've had to have done in that role? And so typically the person goes, I like that. That's a really good question. And it does a handful of things. One, you've gotten them to imagine the interview going really well and then hiring you, right? And then second, they're going to lay out for you exactly what you need to do in the role to excel. And that is something that every boss wants.

1:39:35It's like, I want you interested in knowing what I need from you in order to do a good job. And you can take that same principle and you could bring it into conversations if you want to get a raise sooner than you think you were going to. So you're going to say, hey, you know, I'd like to get a raise. You can make it clear. I'd like to do it faster than usual. But I want to make sure that's totally worth it for you. So six months from now or eight months from now, in order for me to get this raise, what would I have had to have done for it to be a no -brainer obvious to you that this was valuable and then they will go and tell you the things that you could do and if it's a company that says no you can't maybe you don't want to work there But they'll just give you the playbook and then do those things Keep up with that person and you're now off track for promotions, right?

1:40:19You're not just doing whatever they say and the bummer is you might have done those things anyway But if you don't have the conversation in advance, they're not gonna give you a raise in most cases It's so interesting because this could be applied to like anybody in any role that is selling anything I'm thinking of a personal trainer who meets their client on the first day and says, six months from now, what would I have done to have made you happy or thinking of, you know, marketing industries, agencies, turning to their clients at the start and saying, if we're still working together in 12 months and you're really happy, what would I have done?

1:40:47Yeah. And they'll lay out exactly how they want to be treated in their expectations. Yes. Yes. So you can meet and exceed them. Yes. Yeah, and it shows that you care in that initial moment. You mentioned something earlier on, which you said you were in a South America and you thought your life was gonna be focused on figuring out how to pick up women. Yeah. What are women attracted to in your opinion? I know this is somewhat stereotyping and generalised, but are there anything that as a man I could do to make myself more attracted to a woman and vice versa? Mm -hmm. When I see men approach women, particularly in the US, every culture is different, I've lived in a number of different places, there's that moment where they're just sussing out does he feel like he has a right to speak to me or not?

1:41:32And sometimes they're not immediately warm and by immediately, I mean in the first five seconds. And there's a difference between the guys that I've seen get more comfortable and they just ride that five to 10 to 15 seconds out and then the women are laughing and the guys that take that first initial bit of sheeting initially like love everything that I said. And then they go, okay, and they walk away. So conviction is a huge, huge piece of it. I think another big element is that a lot of guys come in with just men. They have these boring habits, and I don't think they can conceive of what it's like to be a woman and get asked the same boring thing 10 million times.

1:42:08And this is true on dating apps and it's true in the bar. So on dating apps, it's pay, right? Or something like that. In a bar, it's, do you come here often? It's what is your major or something like that. So having any sort of initial line that is just not that, right? make it true, you don't need to tell a fake story, but the one that I fell back on in so many different social circumstances was, hey, I don't think I've met you yet, I'm Charlie. And the reason I love this is one, it's portable, it can be a house party, it can be a bar, it can be whatever. But unspoken in that is that I'm the type of person who knows a lot of people here, which I didn't say that.

1:42:46But it comes through in that, it's like I'm the man that is, I'm the man about town. I know different people here. So that was always just an easy one to have. and I think to have that in your back pocket is very helpful. But in terms of what they want, the first thing is just general human attraction. And this isn't like, I want to sleep with you, I want to marry you, it's just, do I want to engage in conversation with you? Do you have an interesting story? Do you, am I excusing myself at the first minute to go to the bathroom? First chance I get. Is she filling in gaps in conversation with her own contributions?

1:43:18Or do you have to carry the entire load yourself? That's how you know if you have that basic human attraction. It doesn't mean that she likes you or wants to be with you, it just means that she's down to converse and interact with you. The second thing that is probably one that most guys miss is, do you authentically have and have you communicated to her, that you have standards beyond her being beautiful? And for most men, this is just a no. This is unfortunately, if they look back on their lives and they go, okay, has there ever been a time where I was physically attracted to someone? and she did something that made me go, okay, I'm not interested anymore, whether it was Be Rude to a Waiter or Unkind or Cold, or just not have fun in the way that I would like to have fun, which doesn't mean she's a bad person, just means she's not a match for me.

1:44:03So many men, especially when they're younger, don't have standards. They have that one standard. So the weird thing about that is it feels like, oh well, if I have a standard, I have a smaller group of people that are gonna work with me, but actually women want to be liked for more than their looks. People want to be appreciated for their inside, for who they are as a person. And if you can't feel and communicate that, you know, oh man, like I often go out, I don't meet people that I have as much fun with as you're so funny. Or like I love how affectionate you are. Like, like most people wouldn't come onto the dance floor with me, and we're the only ones out here or whatever it is.

1:44:40if you can communicate to her that you have a standard that she is hitting and that is making you aware that you're a match for her, it shifts that power balance from she's on a pedestal because she's beautiful and I'm gonna pursue her the whole time to genuinely you come in and you're actually filtering for these things. So you will be subconsciously wanting to find the person who's gonna go cut up the dance floor with you or trying to find the person that is affectionate as opposed to the person who is a bit colder. Is there an element to this as well where people will shit test you? Like they will test to see if you have standards.

1:45:15Yes, yes. Because if men and women, so I will subtly, because I heard about this thing called shit testing, we're like someone will subtly mistreat you to see how you react. Yeah. And if you react to that moment and you just kind of accept it and tolerate it, they'll therefore treat you in the future in the same way. But also they will be less attracted to you and viewers lower status. whereas she might show up 45 minutes late, and if you're still sat there, then that in and of itself is showing that you'll tolerate anything, and that she's, or he, is highest -standard, highest status than you.

1:45:49Yeah. At the beginning of one of my relationships that wound up being a multi -year relationship, but we were just sort of getting started, and I remember we had plans to meet on a Sunday night, and I had been very amenable up until this point. She canceled and I said, no problem, you know, canceled, no problem. And I saw what was happening. I'm breaking my own rule. I'm being, I'm moving plans in order to make space with her. And so we have a thing Sunday night. It's 9 p .m. we're supposed to meet at 10. She calls me and says that, sorry, I can't come. I'm with my family and I'm going to, you know, I just can't make it.

1:46:25Also, unfortunately, this week, you know, I have this thing on Monday and this other thing Tuesday and then I have worked Thursday, Friday night. so the only way that I can see you this week is going to be Wednesday night. And I had earlier that day made plans to go out with my friends on Wednesday night. And though it was a challenge for me, I thought about this earlier and I said, oh, that's a bummer, then I don't think I'm going to be able to see you this week. She said, what do you mean? I have plans on Wednesday. Well, then we're not going to be able to see each other. She starts getting upset and nervous.

1:46:57I don't know what to tell you. I just am not free on Wednesday. Okay, let me call you back. And she calls me back in 15 minutes. Okay, I'm going to come over. Oh my God, you just reminded me of so many investment conversations I've got with founders who pitched me their business and email me and go, Steve, we've got a million pounds left in this round. You can put the million in, but we need to know in three days' time because we've got so much interest. And I remember one over the Christmas break where I said, don't worry about it. I can't give you an answer in three days. I take two weeks to speak to my team, do some analysis, do diligence.

1:47:27I come back two weeks later and I go, we're not interested. Is there any way you might be interested? Please, I've just, A, you told me there was three days for me to make a decision at first. And I told you I didn't want to do that. I took two weeks. I came back and said no. And now you're chasing me? Yeah. And it's so interesting how, but you can't, the problem with this as advice is it has to be true. Yes, this is don't play, I mean games. At first, I understand you're 18. You've got nothing on your social calendar. You technically are available every minute of the day to be with this girl that you would really like to be with.

1:48:05The advice is often just say no that you can't hang out when she does it, which I think is very confusing. Instead, fill your calendar. Start to build your life outside of this thing. If you're this business, get other options on the table. Have other balls in the air that are going for you. So it's a hack, but starting to calendar your social life, which is not something I like to be very flexible. But when you have that, it actually makes you much more charismatic. And I see this all the time. So there is something to this. Don't play the game. You don't need to fake it. But if you find that this is not working your life, start to take steps to fill your calendar.

1:48:40Even if one night is like on Tuesdays, I watch this TV show and then take a luxurious bath after like, No, sorry, I can't do it Tuesday. And this can all get adjusted when you're in a relationship, and it's ongoing. There's a give and take that it's, of course, going to occur. But man, yeah, there is these power games that people play. There's these who is more in demand. And like it or not, it has an impact. I went through some of your best performing videos of all time on your channel. And it was interesting that I could see kind of themes in them. I could see the several of the best performing videos had similar themes.

1:49:16And one of the really prominent themes was five habits that make people instantly dislike you. So that's a video about Rielarson. And around the time of the Avengers Captain Marvel thing, she had a string of interviews that were pretty alienating to people. Some of the things that she did, goodness, it was having to win every joke exchange. They're talking about, for instance, who's the most powerful Avenger, right? And they're sort of being playful with each other. Like, well, Thore is the most powerful. And she adopts this attitude of, well, actually my character would kill yours. And there's a well -actually quality, like, well, actually I would win.

1:49:54Actually I would win. Actually, your character is just a mere mortal and I would win. And it is like cute once, but it becomes frustrating to have someone have to win every banter exchange between friends. And so I think people saw that and they saw some of the reactions of the cast. And so that's one is like to have to win every banter exchange and have a burn that you come out on top of, not a good one. Another one that she did is to interpret ambiguous communications negatively. So for instance, in this particular video that I did, she's on that wired autocomplete interview. And there's one question that does breathe, Larsen, work out.

1:50:38And in a way that doesn't, to at least to Americans, like clearly communicate sarcasm, maybe it's different to Brits, I don't know. You guys have a different cultural code. She says something to be effective. Like, is that a personal attack? Really? Yeah. And then she doesn't laugh. And she also, so there's two options there. You could say, is that a personal attack? And then you could laugh, right? Or you could say, is that a personal attack? every one on the internet thinks that I'm so fat, just trying to jump on me. I'm trying to lose weight. Like you can double and triple down until it's clear that you're being absurd.

1:51:10Yeah. But she said it once. And it came through as hyper defensive. And the thing that I talk about is you want to interpret ambiguous communications terribly. This is a big one. This is one of, like, if you've watched the show Ted Lasso, this is full of this. People will come up to him and I just did a video that had this clip where he's on the airplane, if you know Ted Lasso, he's an American guy going to England. And somebody says, you know, So you're going to coach the football team, the soccer team for us in England. Man, they're so bad. This is going to go horribly. You're a legend. And then he responds, well, you know, I haven't lost yet.

1:51:41Nobody's just got this general positive demeanor. He takes that ambiguous communication and responds with grace and charm and doesn't make it a fight. That works so well. That purposeful misinterpretation of inviguations early on that are maybe not the friendliest. This often will take people that are trying to take dicks at you and make them flip. And in the case that somebody was just a bit socially miscalibrated, it gives them the opportunity to, you know, not be cast as the bad guy in the interaction. So that was something else that she did wrong. Interesting. Also, if others are watching the interaction, and if you have a bias towards interpreting the communication well, the person that was maybe taken to dig it used, gonna look pretty ridiculous, and you'll probably come off looking pretty good.

1:52:25Exactly, exactly. And when we see people defend themselves against words, with some exception, when somebody's like saying that they're gonna hurt you, it communicates in insecurity and a defensiveness, which is like, why do you need to defend yourself against the opinions of another, right? Like the Trump thing where he said, about only Rosie O'Donnell. Oh, yes, yes. I don't need to defend myself against this. and it sub -communicates that this is not a big deal. More than saying, that's not a big deal. You are sub -communicating that, it's not a big deal by not defending it. And that's what we do when we actually feel comfortable.

1:53:05Let's say if somebody were to T something that you're not at all insecure about, I don't know what it would be. Maybe your business success or something. They come in and they're like, yeah, well, you know, it's Steven, real struggling these days. You're going to laugh, you're going to add on to it. And sometimes a way through this is to tag the joke that's made at your expense, which is to add a yes and on type of it. So if somebody ambiguous interpretation to say, yeah, Steven, his business is just aren't working really well. You're like, oh my god, dude, you have no idea. I've been pulling my hair out with the last few weeks, just like things are falling apart around me.

1:53:34You can do that because I'm assuming feel very comfortable with your level of business success. And when you can, again, there is a difference when you start to sense a pattern in somebody that is a different route that you want to take. But if it's just one banter thing that is at your expense to double down and make it a joke that you're in on is often very, very powerful. Fascinating. I'm going to ask you one last question on this. One of your best performing videos is titled Speak Like a Leader, Make People Respect You. In fact, there was two of your top performing videos that were about speaking like a leader, Speaking Well, which is fascinating to me that people really want to learn how to speak well.

1:54:17What advice would you give to someone who doesn't feel like they're a good oral communicator on how to speak like a leader. The ability to answer non -literally and bring in fun and jokes into the interaction, the ability to get to values in a conversation, which is a lot of the stuff that we talked about, to take people to the thing that they actually want to connect over versus the weather and all that sort of stuff is part of it. You don't, you seem to take a pause as well when you're thinking. Some people fill in the gaps a little bit. Yeah, generally, and I'm sure I've made this mistake, but if you can replace any filler word, any crutch word that you have with silence, silence is a vacuum, and the cool thing about vacuum is that they pull attention to you.

1:55:07And I think people dramatically, dramatically underestimate the amount of silence they're afforded. If I look back actually on my early videos, I dramatically underestimated the value of silence. I thought that I had to get it all out there and be super interesting really fast in order to keep that AVD really, really high. And I've since seen and learned that when you have a story and you learn the beats where you've set up the mystery. And so there's these lines that you'll say in a story like, you know, the craziest thing happened the other day. So I'm right. Like, there's these hooks and you get an intuitive feel for where you've got the audience on the edge of their seat.

1:55:46And especially then, to just take a breath or have a pause, you don't need to think all of this out, but that becomes second nature. That's very valuable. And it comes from the way that I've seen people do is when you record yourself, tell a story and just watch back how many ums and us you have in it. When I watch my own podcasts, I'm sure you've felt this. Yeah, I'm like, oh, it's horrifying. Yeah. Yeah. You begin to see your own little habits come through. Does body language matter when I'm speaking? In your own? I think so. Yeah, there's a couple things that I tend to teach people, which is a lot of people form a tiny little box for themselves where maybe they'll move their hands like this, and they got this thing going on.

1:56:26You move that concept, you're just kind of waving it like that. I'm kind of waving my hands in a little circular thing. And my elbows most importantly are pinned to my sides. If I lift my elbows off my sides, And I start talking a little bit like this. And if I was to say, you know, over here, and my brother's in the green room over there, and I just stickulate, there's two ways to just to stickulate. I can take my finger and I can point six inches for my face the direction that my brother is. Or I can lift my entire arm and port over there, point over there. The space that you fill is one captivating.

1:56:55This is something that we talk about in a lot of our videos, which is you don't need to invade other people's space. You need to fill your own completely. When you fill your space completely, it is much more captivating. So when you're on stage to just stick you late with the full width of your wingspan, like, look, I know you guys on this side of the room are feeling this. But over here, right, versus, I know you guys on this side of the room think that we have to do this. But over here, there's a level of discomfort that is comes through in it versus get those elbows off the sides. It makes a huge, huge difference.

1:57:25Also helps you speak louder. Makes you more dynamic. What's the most important thing we haven't talked about that the audience are probably screaming to know at this exact moment in time. When it comes to confidence, one of the mindsets that I see really help people is that there are new superiors. That you go into your workplace and you think that you've got to treat your boss differently. Or you go into a bar and you think you have to treat the beautiful woman differently. And yes, there is status. And yes, we arrange ourselves in sorts of hierarchies. But when you realize, and I, as I did in my job, This is why I got the raise off cycle.

1:58:01It's why everything started working for me. You're not dealing with roles. You're not dealing with investors. You're not dealing with avatars of beauty. You are dealing with people and the people that they love the most in their life that they would do the most for. They connect with over the same things that you connect with your friends over. There's different interests, but the underlying themes of those things are the same, what they love to do for fun, what fills them up, what brings them joy, not looking prim and proper and perfect. And so, like, a willingness to make that mistake is, I see, is often the essence of confidence, and when I have dropped it, and another friend has picked it up, I see it all the time.

1:58:43Gives back to what you said about convincing versus invites. Don't convince people, give them invites to connect. Yeah. Yeah. That's a really interesting point that I never had before, and I can immediately see how I can action that in my own life, because I do, even I find myself like convincing people all the time, trying to convince them, especially if they don't know how I do this, I do this, I do this, even like when I land into the US, but like, it's a border force. Like, what are you doing here? Like, what do you do? I'm like, you're... I'm like, you're gonna block us. I'm like, it's really cool.

1:59:11I'm like, it's not a prison. It brings out that little boy. I'm like, get this in your holiday. I'm here for a fucking holiday. Yeah, let me through. We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest without doing who they're leaving it for. All right. And the question that's been left for you is, what is the most important thing you are doing to increase your wellbeing? Oh. Well, we haven't talked about this and without opening a can of worms. I have done roughly quarterly psychedelic journeys for the last couple of years and I was someone who had never done that before.

1:59:52I, when I was 30, I was the most straight -age person you ever met. I didn't drink. I didn't do any of that. Are you doing it? Why am I doing it? Onestances only. To connect with my heart. And have that be the primary was thing that I bring it to every interaction. And it has helped me address the barriers to that, the shame. And we didn't go super deep today into it. but the things that I've alluded to in my past that I thought made me broken or unworthy of showing up fully. Where did that come from?

2:00:30Yeah. Hmm.

2:00:37The belief and the experiences that I had in the Ramanian, it feels like the podcast that you've been to them though. We can jump into them if you want to. I'm open to it. One of them was being sexually abused. And one of the things that I got from psychedelics was the ability to go back into that experience and realize what it had, And what compensations I'd made as a result of it, because it was always something that I remembered. I was old enough to remember. I was probably about 10 -ish. And... But the way that I took it was... This is my fault. I did this. I must have wanted this, or else it wouldn't have happened.

2:01:31It's that infinite responsibility, even at a young age, that I took, which I could see is crazy. And therefore, this doesn't bother me. I'm not affected by this. And in these experiences to break, to just crack entirely. And my heart to spill out of my chest and in pain and tears and grief for the loss of soul connection that was impacted. by that experience.

2:02:13To, uh, I'm so blessed to have had the chance to reconnect with my soul. And I want so deeply to offer that to other people. And perhaps this had some context to the shift and charisma from something that you do to with the essence of who you are. And that's how I want to teach it going forward. And that's what I, that's the core gift that I want to pass forward to others. That motion is still on the surface. Because it costs you something that you, what are the mixture of emotions you feel?

2:03:02So today I feel so much love. I feel so much love. I hear this voice in my head say I love you. Like I hear it so much. I feel it constantly. It's such a fucking gift and a blessing. And so much grief for the years that I didn't feel that. and then I had to be more than I was in order to come approximate a fraction of that. So it's today, ecstatic joy and gratitude. And when I think back on it, it's

2:03:51compassion, which is not what I felt before. I felt revulsion for myself. When I thought of what had happened to me, I felt disgusted with me, with my body, with my center. And I, I love being me more and more. And so yeah, I think part of the mix is the, I'm glad you asked because it's what I want to give to other people, whatever I can related to this.

2:04:35And I think the only way I can give it is by speaking to what I've lost for a long time as well. And I didn't believe in souls for my whole life. You know, there was none of that. That word was empty to me. And to have it come back. And to first feel the ache of it coming back, the excruciating pain of like, oh, the separation from this. And then the reunion is just like, like, every day, I like pray and gratitude for that. So, I, um, that's why I bought the business is for this to spread that to as many people as I can.

2:05:40Thank you. Yeah. It's really a beautiful thing that you just shared for so because I just know that there's people out there that are at some stage in that journey. You know, it's a sexual abuse or something that I think from my very sort of naive experience of speaking to people that have been through that is a very unique complex range of feelings and emotions that someone who's not been through that might struggle to understand. Because an objective observer says you felt you felt you've done something wrong. Yeah. You carried the shame. You carried the guilt. You carried disgust. It doesn't make it doesn't appear to make sense.

2:06:22So by way of you sharing it, you're going to enable a lot of people who are struggling in a similar way to make sense of what their experience but also to offer them tremendous hope that at the end of that journey, how I've longed that might take them, they're going to arrive at alignment. They're going to come back to themselves. Yeah. The shame was so underneath. It was so pushed down. I wasn't aware of it. You know, I used to ask earlier what were you feeling back then? I said shame. But I was, it came out the sideways. It came way in perfectionism or seeking approval or trying to rescue and save other people.

2:06:56All the things that we talked about today, it was only through direct contact with that repressed feeling of self -disgust and responsibility that I was able to move through it and heal it and to sit with the worst thoughts that I had about myself, which is like you said, you did this, you wanted it, you deserve it, you, you know, all of that stuff that gets sounds so freaking strange even to me to say but to know that that's the common response to something like that. Ah man, it has helped me understand people so much more because I think you know I have my own history and my own shames. But when you see the way that people internalize the things that have happened to them as if they're broken, as if they deserved the misfortunes of particularly their early life and even late life, it's so sad.

2:08:13And I could see now how sad it is, but you couldn't have convinced me before. Is there anything that you wish this grown mind in front of me could say to that boy?

2:08:32I wish and that someone could have, I just needed someone to sit with me, someone to sit and wait without blame. There was not opportunity for an adult to just sit that I trusted and just listen. So if I could send anything back to myself then it would just be an adult to listen to me and today what I've had to send back internally is that I just listen to myself. I listen to myself so much more. And it's only through listening to myself that I get through all the shame and then finally hear that voice of, I love you. I love you. I love you. I couldn't be loved more.

2:09:26Thank you. Thank you. There's so many reasons why I feel so grateful to you. I mean, And your work over the years has helped so many people make sense of a world that appears to be very confusing. Especially as like a young man, but even also as a young woman, understanding why we're struggling in our lives can feel like a rubix cube of a bunch of different factors that we're either given across the dining room table from our parents or biologically or whatever and you've helped us to understand the most important thing in the world, which is humans, what it is to be a human, how to be an effective human and whatever context, how to be an uneffective human, and to really turn the lights on to many of the things that we do and don't do without knowing it at all.

2:10:13And all of this gives us a greater chance of becoming whoever we want to be. And I'm also grateful to you because you're willing this to share your early experiences, this early abuse that happened and to reflect on it and to talk to us so openly and honestly about the complexities of it, are going to help so many people who are at some stage in that process to feel seen and heard. And to also, maybe most importantly of all, offer them hope that they can come to where you've arrived at today where you love yourself. Thank you, man. And you have that love in yourself. Thank you, that what a gift.

2:10:56That's a whole blessing. Thank you. I highly recommend everybody. If they want to hear more from you, they have to go and check out your channel. I'm going to put it on the screen and link it everywhere because you're on a journey. And I think people are more fascinated now than ever before to really follow that journey and understand what truly charisma is, what loving yourself is, what we should be aiming at. And I'm, I mean, having spoken to you today, I'm so, I'm almost obsessed with your work and what's going to pour out of you in this season of your life. And I'd highly recommend everybody go check out the channel.

2:11:31It's unbelievable. Your back, you took a hiatus. But your back, and there's a new essence to you, which I think is incredible. Yeah. So please go check out Charlie's work. Please go check out his channel. Please go check out his university. I'm gonna link all of that below. And is there anything else that if people want to reach out to you? How do they do it? How do they get more from you? Yeah, we have we have a course called Charisma University, which is you asked me a lot about the tips and quite frankly, they're not top of mind, but they're in there. Yeah, you know, that's a 30 day program for people to go through and start to implement these things in a very actionable way.

2:12:04So if they're curious, they can check that out. Just Google Charisma University. And I think that's it. I'm happy we finally got to the tears, Stephen. I was worried that your reputation would fail you.

2:12:18Thank you. Thank you. Thanks, man. It's been a pleasure. It really, really has been. Isn't this cool? Every single conversation I have here on the Diary of Aceo, at the very end of it, you'll know, I asked the guest to leave a question in the Diary of Aceo. And what we've done is we've turned every single question written in the Darivasi O into these conversation cards that you can play at home. So you've got every guest we've ever had, their question, and on the back of it, if you scan that QR code, you get to watch the person who answered that question. We're finally revealing all of the questions and the people that answered the question.

2:12:59The brand new version two updated conversation cards are out right now at the conversation cards dot com. They sold out twice instantaneously. So if you are interested in getting hold of some limited edition conversation cards, I really, really recommend acting quickly. This has always blown my mind a little bit. 53 % of you that listen to this show regularly haven't yet subscribed to this show. So could I ask you for a favor before we start? If you like the show and you like what we do here and you want to support us, the free simple way that you can do just that is by hitting the subscribe button.

2:13:31And my commitment to you is if you do that, that I'll do everything in my power, me and my team, to make sure that this show is better for you every single week. We'll listen to your feedback, we'll find the guests that you want me to speak to, and we'll continue to do what we do. Thank you so much.

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