CMO Of Netflix, Uber & Apple! Work Life Balance Is BAD Advice! "I Lost My Baby & My Husband!" - Bozoma Saint John

26:19Exactly. Or freaked out about it. Yeah. God. It's like, man, when I when I started recognizing that Sunday scaries were tied to my wrong turns. I guess we jumped into the driver's seat real quick. Me. You know what I look. And again, we're not saying we're not making light of a meal like, oh, this is so easy. Just change direction. You know, but it's so helpful when you recognize it. And then you're like, oh, okay. Now I can do something about this. You know what I write? Isn't that the first step of like any problem solving is to recognize the problem? Do anything like like Sunday scaries is a signal.

27:02Oh, man. Tell me. And it's a signal. And it's a very important signal and it's screaming at you. So loud. So loud. And the thing is that think about Sunday scaries in relationship to anything in your life. When you are in a relationship, let's say romantic, and you have to go hang out with that person. And you're not feeling so cute about it. I'd be time for you to reevaluate whether or not this relationship is good for you. You know, it's like you should be feeling that like, oh, I really want to go do this thing with this person. And for me, it's not even about length of time because marriage is not something where it's like people tell you all the time is so hard.

27:46And it's like, you know, you'll fall out of love with this person and then fall back in love with them. And it's like, I'm not talking about like the fickleness of your everyday feelings. I'm talking about like the consistency of a mood that you are in when you are in the presence of that person. Like, do you feel great? Do you have icky -ness when you're with them? Like that. That's a Sunday scary that you need to watch out for. So it's not just about like, am I going to wake up and go to work tomorrow at a job I hate? I apply that to everything in my life. And that's the kind of freedom that I want in my life.

28:27That like, I don't engage with people that I feel the icky -ness with. There's so many throughout your experience of arriving in New York and then working with Spike Lee. And there's so many really interesting moments that I sort of categorize and provide clues as to how you got here today. One of those early moments was when you're in New York and Spike Lee puts the script on your desk. Yes. Because that is for me, that is for me, I've really clear. It was like a fork in the road. You could have done one thing or another thing. And the choice you made in that seems to be quite pivotal. Can you tell me about that?

29:04Yes. So interesting. It wasn't just that he put the script on the desk. He was walking by with the script under his arm. And as I shared, I'm, you know, I love to read. And I know that Spike writes with a very black point of view about the African -American experience. And I was fascinated by that. And so as soon as I saw it, I was like, oh, I mean, this must be something interesting that he's either writing or reading. I want to be part of it. What was your job there at this time? I was the assistant. Actually, not even the assistant. I was answering the phone. And I was a receptionist at his agency, a temporary receptionist.

29:41I didn't even have the job yet. I was only filling in. But it felt there was a little bit of naivete in it, you know, in that, like, I don't know if... 15 years ago, even, if I saw Spike walking past my desk, I would have been like, hey, what are you reading? Can I read that? Because I would have used all my logic to say, oh, he's so important to whatever he's holding there he needs. He's not going to give it to you. So why even ask? I probably would have explained it to myself that way. But at the time, there was a little bit of that naivete, brashness, arrogance even. And I said, you know, I was just like, oh, whatever he's reading, I want to read.

30:23And so that's what I asked him. Just said, what do you have? You know what I said? He said, he's a script for Man Buzeld. And I was like, okay, what can I read it? And he looked at me, incredulously. And he was like, sure, there you go. Have it back to me in three days and let me know what you think. And of course, he had a smirk on his face and so did the office. Everybody who overheard the conversation. And I really don't understand what that meant. But of course, in hindsight, I understood that it was such a complicated piece of writing that he probably didn't think I would finish it one or have anything to add.

30:57And I took a red pen to it. A literal red pen. He likes to tell the story now that like, you know, he gave this receptionist his script and I came back three days later with Markovs and notes in the margins. So you know, I think that this dialogue here could be fushed out a little bit. I didn't understand what happened between these two characters. You know what, he was just like, what? You walked up my script. And I was just like, oh god, I did not know. Man, I really did think I was getting fired that day. And he went into his office, slammed the door. I sat there, man, I'm telling you, I have my purse with me.

31:33And I was just sitting there waiting for him to open up the office so that he could tell me I was fired. And meanwhile, I'm thinking in the back of my head, my dad's gonna kill me because I'm not even supposed to be in this job. I have a cause degree. Why am I a receptionist at this office anyway? And then he opened the door after what felt like 17 hours. It was probably just, you know, 30 minutes. And that's when I got the job. He was like, you made some good notes. You should stay. How old are you? 22. So you're 22 and you take a red pen to one of the most famous film directors work. Yeah. And that gets you the job.

32:11Yes. What's the lesson now? Oh, it changed my entire life. Oh, that changed my entire life. I've had a few inflection points in my life. That is absolutely one of them. Without that moment, I don't know. And maybe at some other point I would have learned it. Maybe it would have come to me anyway. But I'm so glad it came to me then that there is no one who knows more about anything. Then you do. It just doesn't exist. Like, look, I'm not saying you should go ahead and try to do like open heart surgery. Maybe don't do that, you know. But if you are the patient getting counseled by your doctor and they say, you know what I think we're going to have to do open heart surgery.

32:59But you feel like, hey, look, I don't know that you understand all the symptoms that I'm trying to discuss with you. And that you seem to just get by a bunch of these things that I've just said, I'm going to have to go for a second opinion. That's the kind of belief I have in myself, you know, where I'm just like, I'm going to question you even though you're the expert and say, I don't know because you really didn't pay attention to what I was saying. So let me just go and try and talk to somebody else. That that moment when Spike said, sure, go for it. And I went for it. And then he said, I have some good ideas.

33:32Oh, come on. Like you just said, he's one of the most brilliant filmmakers of all time. He will be in the annals of history. And he thought as a 22 year old, I made some good points on a script that is one of his most difficult to read. You can't tell me shit. It's hard for anything or anyone's one do that conviction and evidence, right? That he gives you in that moment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I feel like also I learned something as a leader from him in that moment that there aren't people on my team that I dismiss for lack of tenure or understanding. You know that there are so many people who can contribute to an idea or to a campaign who can challenge your strategy without having more knowledge than you do of the thing.

34:34You know what I'm saying? That like there are junior people on the team that you should ask their opinion because they're probably going to look at it from a different perspective than you ever would. And they might say something that changes the entire direction of the thing you're doing. And you should listen to them. Sometimes it's hard for those people to speak up, right? Because of that. Yes, but that's why again the lesson from that moment is that like when he says sure, it's like as a leader why would I not say sure to somebody or make the room for them to be able to speak up? You know, I've been I've been known in my teams to I'm like a teacher I'll call on people.

35:13You know, and not to make them feel badly, but just allow space. You know, see somebody who looks like they're and again this comes down to like some of those lessons from out 12 reading people body language, seeing somebody's itching to jump in the conversation, but they can't find a space because that knucklehead over there talks too much. We've all been in those meetings, you know, and then just being like, hey, did you did you have something to say? You know, did you want to contribute to this? You ever thought about this? And then sometimes he would be like, oh, no, no, no, I know they'll get shy, you know, we're like, though, I can start to see them like panic.

35:48And I'm like, okay, no problem. But if you do, just let me know, you know, just give them a second to be able to gather themselves. Or sometimes it, you know, they'll be like, yes, actually, I just I just wanted to say, and they'll contribute. And you know, sometimes the contribution is great and sometimes it's a bunch of crap, which you'll never know unless you ask. The counter narratives that is do you think I'm playing around with this idea that I think in teams people end up having what I call like a contribution school. And it's kind of like a credit score, but it's like the historical value of when you speak, whether it's valuable or not.

36:21And so like your credit, when you go for, you want to like lease a car or you want to get a house or whatever, if you've got a bad credit score, you're probably going to get shut down upon, you know, upon an application. And if you've got a bad contribution score, if you tend to just contribute without thinking or you're just speaking for the sake of speaking, then when you speak, the first word starts at a lower level of appreciation. That is so true. God, I've never thought of it that way. I love that though. And you go to, so this is a converse point because you do want to protect your contributions go.

36:54You don't want to just speak for the sake of speaking. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If your brain's filming a campaign and I go, what about a billboard? Right. And you look like, and you get that was a fucking stupidity. You already done the board. Yeah. But that's the thing is that, you know, it's kind of also the same way that I look at failure of ideas. You know, man, that can kill a, I can kill your creativity. Fasted anything else, you know, it's not it's not just your contribution score, but it's like, you know, it's like if we're like we're in the meeting. Okay. And here you are. Maybe you spoke up by yourself.

37:31Maybe I called on you. And you said the thing and everybody in the room is like, oh my God, that's actually that's really smart. Yes, it is. We should do that. And then we do the thing and it bumps. Oh man. You know, this is when again, as a leader, it's like you got to come in and protect the people's spirit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they're confidence. Yeah, it's like that idea of failing fast. Like that's when it really comes into play. It's like, oh, no, no, no. Dust yourself off. Everybody get up. We're going to try this again. We're going to try a different way. Thank you for contributing. Situations.

38:04Okay. Who else has another idea? Yeah. But making sure that they're no longer a pariah also. You know, but that's your job as a leader to do that. You know, it's like, look, we each have a value and a role to play in that context, right? So as the person who came up with the bad idea or the stupid contribution, your job isn't to then dust yourself off and try to come again. You know, you can do that. But it's really hard to do if you don't have somebody on the other end who's pulling you to do that. You know, and so my job in that role is to make sure that you come back. That is my job. You know, it's not just to pick the good ideas is to protect the people.

38:52Protect the good ideas, protect the bad ideas. Like make sure they keep rising every time something bombs because it's going to bomb. Like you're not going to get a perfect score all the time. And it's funny because what you're saying that I was thinking it was only a bad idea when it hit the market. Yeah. As a good idea up until then. And that's an uncontrollable right? No one can so sell it. Probably should be celebrating the running the experiment itself. Yeah. The outcome of the experiment. Yes, that's right. That's right. That's right. And always, you know, I love Monday morning quarterbacking.

39:26I love it. You know, some people think it's like a punishment. I really try not to make it feel like punishment where you review the thing that happened that went bad. You know, and everybody wants to pile on. No, now all of a sudden this person who didn't say one word in the meeting was like, well, I knew it was a bad idea from the start. Oh, I cannot stand those type of people. Look, in a meeting with me, you all understand that's a wrong thing to say. If you're going to be the one who says, well, I knew it was going to be bad from the start. Well, then you should have said that shit before we went and executed it.

39:53Otherwise, don't tell me now. Yeah. So it's like the picking a part of the thing like, okay, what was the thing that went right? What was the thing that went wrong? What could we have done differently to get a different outcome? And sometimes it's nothing. The conditions were right. The idea was right. It was executed right. It just didn't hit. And sometimes you just could be like, just chalk it up like that. It sucks. You know, or you do learn something or just like it was such a great idea in the room. But then we went outside and we were all in love with it. That we missed the huge red flag.

40:28Everybody missed it. Nobody saw it. Nobody saw that like actually wasn't that funny. We laughed in the room, but it wasn't that funny. You know, it's like, and that has happened to me so many times, so many times where it's like, you just fall in love with the thing and then you go outside and nobody thinks it's good. Except for the people who are in the room with you. It's like putting on a really great outfit at home. You know, you just look at yourself. You marry. You're like, I am just too cute. I'm fine. I'm about to pull one at night. You go outside and ain't not one person talking to you.

41:06You see pictures later? You're like, I did not look like that. I know I did it. I swear to you, I looked better when I saw myself the mirror. Can't relate. I'm joking. I'm joking. I'm joking. So that time when you were working in New York, what you were working with Spike at his agency, I read you took a phone call from an ex boyfriend at college who was in a difficult moment in his life. What did he say on the phone? What can you share? You know, I think this is the part about when you think about things that you would do over. You know, the ways that you would have reacted differently and torture yourself about it, I do that now.

41:51Still, even though I've been through a lot of therapy, even though I know that the outcome probably would have been the same at a different time. You know, he suffered from a mental illness that I obviously couldn't diagnose. We were in a romantic relationship that now, of course, looking back with Toxic, I didn't know how to help him. And eventually, he decided to end his life by suicide. And I blamed myself for a long time, to some degree I still do. You know, wishing that I had said something different, wishing that I had known better to ask for help, wishing I'd just been a better friend or girlfriend.

42:51You know, and even now, I remember writing a post on Instagram when someone famous died by suicide. And you know, there were all of the things that people say they're like, oh, you never know what somebody's dealing with. You know, we're like, call this line, if you're thinking these thoughts. And all I could, like, the only way I could react to it was just like, but the people who are around that person, feels like the guilt you feel, the terrible burden you carry for the rest of your life, like what did those people do? And I was like, what hotline exists for them? You know, how do you manage that feeling?

43:40It is a sort of survivor's guilt to some degree. You know, I feel the same about people who are survivors of a loved one's terminal illness. We never talk about those people. You know, you always talk about the person who's suffering. And I'm not saying we shouldn't. I'm just saying that we have to consider the entire circle of people. You know, and how do you give advice, help, relieve the guilt, the sadness, the grief, the regret, all of those things. And it is still something that I deal with in terms of many different types of grief I've had in my life. Mental health and mental illness has become increasingly discussed in society in the last five, 10 years.

44:37When I was a kid, I didn't know what it was. Oh, yeah, no, nobody talked about that. I don't know what it was. It was a thing. Now it's very popular in conversation. How did he made any indications that he was suffering? Could he articulate that he had mental health challenges? Yes. I mean, he was on medication. So he knew he had challenges. But, and look, I was clinically depressed as well. I was on medication. We were both on medication. You know? And the challenge with having any mental illness is that sometimes you know how you're diagnosed and you know that you have to take medication for it.

45:18But maybe you don't feel like you're ill. And he was an artist and musician. And so sometimes as a creative, that gets confused, right? Because you're just like, oh, but I need my angst in order to create. You know, I pull from this deep dark well. And that's where my artistry comes from. And he would say stuff all the time. You know, he would be impassioned about, you know, it's like, well, none of it is worth it. You know, if this, if this doesn't work, I don't know what I'm going to do. You know, or like would be so dependent on me for his own happiness. You know, things I did would set him off or not.

45:58You know, and so then you are tied to that person's ups and downs, even though it has nothing to do with you, right? And again, like, look, I've had a lot of therapy to talk about this. And so I can articulate it. But it isn't changed the way that you really feel about it. I can academically talk about it and say, oh, well, you know, he behaved this way. And therefore I behaved this way, right? We were like a tip for tap type situation. But when you're in it, all you want to do is to protect that person. You know, all I want to do is keep men up. That's all. But any means necessary. So if I meant that I had to stay on the phone for six hours, that's what I had to do.

46:45If I had to miss my own meetings and calls and friends and dinners and all, that's what I had to do. Did he call you? Yes. Around the time. Yes, yes. He called me, well, that day he called, he was having one of his episodes, you know, and was accusing me of cheating on him. Or, you know, whatever the thing was. And I was just so exhausted. It had been a number of days of this constant battery. He was living in Geneva and I was in New York. And so he was, you know, we were on different time zones. He couldn't see anything I was doing, but was accusing me of all kinds of things. I was just tired.

47:27And so I said, I needed to go out with my friends. I couldn't go to dinner. Of course, you can imagine the battery of insults, you know, that he hit me with. And I hung up the phone and just went. And I could hear the phone ringing when I left my apartment. You know, but I thought like, he's just going to have to cool off and I'll get back to my get back. And when I did, he had left me a series of increasingly panicked voicemails. And the last one was the one where he said he was going to jump from a bridge. And that was it. And he jumped from a bridge.

48:12Where are you at with? Because I know you said you can kind of look at it objectively, but it doesn't change how you feel about it. Yeah. Where are you at today? I mean, you're two decades on from that? Yeah. He was such a brilliant person. You know, a brilliant creative.

48:31I, I wish I could have saved him and myself. You know, meaning that I wish I had known to ask for help in that situation. I didn't know what to say. I didn't know how to articulate what he was doing or how I was reacting to it. But I thought it was my fault. You know that if I just like loved him harder or better, whatever better meant. You know that he wouldn't have jumped.

49:12I think about all the time what would have happened if I had answered the phone when I heard it ringing when I was leaving. Was that the moment he decided? You know, maybe if maybe if I had picked up the phone, he wouldn't have felt desolate and alone. I think about that all the time. All the time. All the time. I mean, I so much so that I apply that and many other things that have happened in my life. In current situations. You know, meaning that like if there is a situation with a friend who's going through something or is telling me about some challenge that they're having. And I feel powerless or I feel like I don't have the answer.

50:01I consider whether or not I am their last call. And I consider that like, okay, well, what else can I pull into this to help because I don't know what to do. And by the way, the trauma response that is that sometimes it's not even like that. You know what I'm saying? It's like it's not like I'm jumping to a conclusion that they're not even anywhere near. But that's where I'm going because that's my experience. You know, and so I'm always considerate that it's like if somebody is going through something tough or there's a friend, you know, they tell you to check in on your strong friends. Again, I don't even know what that means.

50:41But you know, it's like if I have a friend who I haven't heard from or like I know they're going through something tough and I call them and they're not answering. Or they I call them the sound funny to me. Oh, I'll be the first one drive over there and be like, I just had to lay eyes on you. I had to see that you're all right. Okay, you good. Okay, okay, you just need to my screen. All right, got you. You know, but I'm I'm I'm very conscious. Of the fact that people are delicate. Our lives are delicate. And even when somebody looks like they got everything together, there might be something really unsettled right underneath the surface.

51:22And so how can I be more conscious as a friend? Now the difference what I've learned in 20 years though is that although I consider like could I have changed the outcome of that? That night, maybe I could have changed the outcome of that night, but it doesn't mean that he would not have decided to end his life. And I have also grown in understanding that it was his choice. It was his choice. It really didn't have anything to do with me. How a person decides to live their life or leave their life is their choice and have to respect it. That's what has changed in 20 years.

52:08It's really interesting because you know we spend so much of our lives fighting the choices that other people make. Oh, yes, especially people we love. Yes, because you think you think you know better for them. You can change it. Yeah, it's a better way. You know, you know better for them. Yes, but that's why I think the same thing we've been talking about with intuition that it applies to you too. It's like you think you know better how somebody else should live their life and they think they know better how you should live yours. And they're going to advise you that way. That's why it's like you know when we talk about like listening to your intuition or whether or not you're going to you know march the beat of your own drum.

52:49And it's like look, they're going to be people in your life who love you desperately who want the best for you and are going to advise you horribly. This is not their life. They can't help you because they don't even know where you are. They've never been there before. Oh, it might look familiar to them. But they've never been there. They're not in your shoes. They don't have your context. So you can advise you yourself. This is the only person. The only one. Nacho mama. Not your best friend that you know since you were three. Not your mentor who you admire and who has reached the place you want to go.

53:31Even they can't do it. You can't do it. They don't know. You found love in Peter. Yes, yes. You weren't interested in him at first. No. What changed? Oh, what changed? Why were you interested in him? If I had that answer, we could solve all of love's riddles, right? It's not really interesting. Earlier on when you talked about let go and let God. It really struck me as a relationship metaphor as well because we go through life thinking I want Bruno with this size this. And we got our blinkers on him. We're too narrow for all the great people that might come along. You might have met your husband or wife already but you were just so caught up in how they were supposed to look and how much money they were supposed to have.

54:22Come on, preach. No, but it's true. But that is part of it is that when you say let go and let God, it's like, yes, the letting go of these three conceptions, whether it's for job or love or friends or whatever. But it's also the action of being like, okay, let me just, all right, let's go and see what this is. You know, and for me, it's like when I met him, yeah, he was not my type. It was like, white man, who is a ginger for God's sake? And what the hell was I going to do with that? It was like, and he was wearing this big fat gold chain, two buttons open in his, I mean, God, even think about it now.

55:04I'm just like, oh, how embarrassing. Like really? Seriously. You know, but he surprised me. We, like, basically, the story is that he said he wanted to get to know me. He want to take me to dinner. And I was like, absolutely not. I'm way too fine for you. Okay? Yes, because that is what I also think. And I was like, look, if you want to get to know me, Mr. White Man, you're going to read Song of Solomon by Tony Morrison. And he was literally like, I don't even know what that. He was like, I, no one has ever even said that to me. And I'm like, yeah, exactly. Go read Song of Solomon by Tony Morrison.

55:46And then we can have dinner and talk about it. Why that book? It was my favorite book. It is still my favorite book. And it's just so, you know, it's like, look, Tony Morrison is an author. Does not come down to your level. Tony Morrison is up here. She's not going to mince words or like change metaphors or not let you stare the uncomfortable realness of being black. I'm going to hit you in the face with it. And I was like, oh, I want to see this very privileged white boy read this work and then come talk to me about it. That was my trick. So he came back very quickly, by the way. And I was like, oh, I'm going to call his bluff.

56:32Because first of all, he didn't read it. Okay. And even if he did read it, there's no way he has a great understanding of that story or that work than I do. I mean, I was like, I'm an African -American and English lit major for God's sake. So I'm Wesleyan. Like, and I'm black. There's no way he knows more. And he surprised me. We went to dinner and he had such interesting insights. And, you know, I mean, like love does. I was struck by Cupid's arrow sitting there that didn't. I swear it was like first night fell in love instantly.

57:11You moved quickly, right? Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. That was November 9th, 2000. And by January, I told my loved him. Also because he had painted me a... His interpretation of Song of Solomon, or along campus. He'd never picked up a paintbrush before. The painting now hangs in our daughters room, by the way. And he gave it to me for my birthday. And I... Man, I was like, yep, he's the one. I want to marry him, that's it. And my very Ghanian father was not into it. At all. Did not approve. Especially when I said, oh, we're going to move in together. Like, we moved in together. We'd known each other for eight months.

58:10And we'd already decided we're going to get married. And at a year, he proposed. I said, yes. And I was like, we're off to the races. This is it. What did George have to say about it? He hated it. He hated it. In fact, it was a terrible situation. Well, my parents came to visit in February. So my mom knew I was very much in love. My dad was not aware. And they came to visit me. Just as coming to visit me in New York, see how I'm doing. And I orchestrated for Peter to come by for dinner. And also just to set context, it wasn't like I introduced my dad to boyfriends. My dad had never met anyone.

58:55And so for him to meet somebody was like, well, who is this? And what does this mean? But he tells it now that he just thought it was me finally coming into some early love. And he just thought it would be something you could dismiss. But by August, when I called him and said, hey, I'm going to move in with my boyfriend. And he was like, absolutely not. Like, first of all, this is shameful. Okay. You're not going to marry this white person. Look, this is not going to work for us. You're the eldest. What are your sisters going to think? You can't live in sin. And he was on a business trip to in China.

59:40And without telling me he flew to New York straight away. And did not come to my office to talk to him about he went to Peters. Showed up in his office. And Peter like calls me and his voice sounded all funny and grays. And he was like, your dad is here. And I was like, there's no way. I just talked to him yesterday. He's in Beijing. And he's like, no, he's sitting in my office. And I was like, I'm on my way. And then I hear my dad in the background. Like, you will do no such thing. This is a conversation for men. I'm like, what? It's like, okay, I'll give you 15 minutes. And then I'm there. Yeah.

1:00:20And to this day, I don't know what they talked about while I was not in the room. But I know that when I got there, there was some, they'd brokered some understanding between each other. And even though my father was still unhappy with the decision made to move in with him, he did not stand in the way. And when I eventually married Peter, he walked me down the aisle. What year was it that you married pizza? 2001. 2003. 2003. So you got engaged in 2001. Yeah. You met in 2000. Yes. Okay. Yeah, quickly, very quick. Yeah. Yeah. And you full pregnant in 2000 and... 2008 for the first time. Eight. What you ready, whatever that means, to be a mother at that point.

1:01:12No. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I didn't even think I wanted to be a mother. Ever. No. I wasn't sure that I did. I was in... My career had just begun to like, you know, climb in a way that was very visible to me. You working at Pepsi at this point? Yes, I was working at Pepsi and having really good success. And I was... I mean, influenced by all of the societal pressures that women have in the workplace, you know, this like, look, if you have a baby, it's going to slow down your career. People will look at you differently. You know, maybe your attentions are going to shift.

1:01:55And so you thought you were ambitious about your career, but let a baby come along. And now, if you want the baby, you don't want the career. I didn't want anything to stop me from the ambition of getting to the top, you know? And also, I was just like, I'm having a good time. I just don't want to be responsible for anybody else. And I found out I was pregnant and I cried. You cried? Oh, what kind of tears? No, like the fugly tears. Like the tears that make you vomit type tears. The tears that when I called my mom to tell her, she was like, stop crying. You know, the tears that Peter didn't know how to react to because he was so excited.

1:02:39He was, he was elated. And, you know, I was thinking, this is awful. You know, it's like, I don't want to be pregnant. And how do you actually say that when, you know, at that point, we've been married for almost five years. We were like coming up on our fifth anniversary at a great job. He had a great job. We had a beautiful apartment in Manhattan. It's like, why wouldn't you, you know, it's like everything seems perfect, right? It's like, no one could look at me and say, oh, you're in a tough situation. You shouldn't have a baby. You know, it felt selfish to say I didn't want to be pregnant or to become a mother.

1:03:27And I went into it under duress. You know, I actually don't think that women, especially, I don't think women talk about that enough. You know, it's like the society's pressure of like becoming a mother at a certain stage in life. Or that if you become a mother and you don't want to be, even when things are perfect, that that can also feel like failure or feel like a trap. It's like somehow you're supposed to get pregnant and then start glowing immediately. You know, start feeling like all the motherly feels, I didn't feel any of that. I didn't want it. And to be totally candid and transparent, it wasn't until I was about five months pregnant when there was the first sign that something might be wrong with my pregnancy that all of a sudden it was like, whatever that instinct was, I was supposed to kick in when I found out I was pregnant.

1:04:33It kicked in at that point. You know, it's like I went from being someone who was very cavalier about the pregnancy and trying to think about like, oh, I got to get my snap back. Like, how am I going to get my six back back after this is done? You know, I went from that person to the like, well, what do you mean that there's like low amnionic fluid? What does that mean? Exactly. Is it maybe okay? Like is this little homie growing? Or like, let me hear the heartbeat again. You know, it's like, it was really that moment that did it. And very quickly things descended into hell. I discovered that I had a condition called pre -clampsia.

1:05:15It's essentially when your blood pressure rises in your body because your body acts like the pregnancy is like attacking you. And so every cell begins to fight against the pregnancy. I was forced to deliver the baby early and she didn't survive. And it was, you know, for someone who had not wanted to be pregnant, it was extraordinarily devastating. I think it was a combination of things. You know, it's like I had begun to develop all the protectiveness of motherhood. You know, very much like I felt in Ben's death, I thought, how could I have been a better mother to this unborn person? You know, what was my failure in taking care of myself so that I could have a healthy child?

1:06:26And again, the similarities are parallel where it's like, look, there's nothing I could have done better. Q1 is often when businesses start implementing new systems and processes in hopes of creating efficiencies for the year ahead. And over the course of my career, I've learnt just how crucial having the right systems in places, one which has helped me across many of my investments is net suite. They're also a sponsor of this podcast. Net suite is the number one cloud financial system through their streamlined platform. You'll find all of your accounting financial management inventory and HR in one place.

1:06:58Their technology has been a real game changer, especially for my team at Flight Studio. As over the last year, we've moved out of startup mode and into scale at mode. We no longer have to juggle multiple systems and having everything together has reduced the number of manual tasks and errors. Over 41 ,000 businesses have chosen to future proof their business with Net suite. So if you'd like to learn how it can help your business, head to net suite dot com slash Bartlett and free download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning. That's net suite dot com slash Bartlett. The aftermath of that of losing Eve.

1:07:32Yes. Take, take me into that moment. What was that? What was your life like in that moment? I don't, gosh, how do I even articulate it? I don't know that there is a word to describe the combination of like grief over something or someone lost that you really never had. You know, with a combination of anger, raw, fierce anger at God for this situation at Peter for having made the choice in the moment of crisis when I'm sitting there and in the bed and the blood pressure is going up. And I'm delirious and the doctor says, you know, there's only one choice here. You save her or you save the baby.

1:08:37Which one is it? And Peter says, we'll save my wife. And I was pissed because again, the whatever that thing is that clicked in my head that said protect the life that is coming first. I was like, no, you should have chosen that one. I've already lived, I've already lived. You should have chosen her. You said that's me. Yes. Yes. It was the beginning of some of the big fractures in our relationship that moment. You know, and then also feeling like an utter failure. It's just like, I mean, women since the beginning of time have had babies apparently easily. My mom had four. You know, it's like stolen Africans were having freaking babies in fields with no epidurals or child care.

1:09:34And here I was living a very lavish lifestyle, having an OBGYN that worked out of the upper east side of Manhattan. And I couldn't even do that. Oh, all of those feelings were so raw and combined. And then on top of it, my almost debilitating drive to be successful at it. You know, it's like, again, we just go back to some childhood things that said, well, look, I've got to do the thing. I've got to be the best at the thing, right? It's like, so now, okay, this has happened to have all of these terrible scary emotions that are going on. But I'm going to be a mom. Clearly, that's what I set out to do.

1:10:37So now I've got to do it. And so three months after Eve died, I got pregnant. By the way, my doctor peed everybody was like, absolutely not. Like, this is not a good idea. Not my therapist, everybody. I was like, I don't care. I'm going to do it. Not necessarily because this is a difficult thing to say. It's not because I necessarily want to be a mother. I want to do it successfully. I wanted to prove to myself to my body that I could do it. You know, that like, and I wanted to like, yell at God and be like, like, did you take this away because I said I didn't want it? Well, okay, now, now I want it.

1:11:30So let's do it. And even when I got sick again with my second pregnancy, I was like, look, I'm going to do everything. Man, I consumed so many prenatal vitamins, boy. Look, I would take them by like the palm fall and be like, you know, and there wasn't. I got a specialist. I had, I was taking a low -vanox for anybody knows it's like, you know, this blood thinner that I would have to inject into my belly every single day. Man, I was the most obedient pregnant woman you've ever seen in your life. And I still got sick seven months into my pregnancy. Still with all of that. And so again, it's like, look, sometimes there are situations that you cannot control.

1:12:30Like, very much like Ben, like he would have chosen to end his life at some point with or without my love, with or without me answering the phone. I was going to get ill with or without the prenatals with or without a specialist. Those are not controllable by me, but I was still trying my best to be successful, to do it well. And when Leo was born, came out screaming. And I took one look at that girl and I was like, yeah. You and I were going to make it. Like you, who you came here by any means necessary. And I am going to love you like fiercely, deeply, because it just took too much together here.

1:13:26A year after Leo's birth, I believe, Peter and you separated. Yeah. Connected to all of that. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Connected to all of that. I mean, I think that, you know, traumas in our life, of course, and especially I think it for a married couple. And again, for us, you know, it's like, Peter really wants to be a father. I wasn't sure I wanted to be a mother. We get pregnant. Terrible things happen in the pregnancy. We lose Eve. I blame him entirely. And God, you know, he becomes obsessed with my health in my next pregnancy. He does not want me to get pregnant. I'm like, I'm going to with or without your consent.

1:14:13I'm kidding. But it became a battlefield in our home, in our relationship. We were no longer a team. But what was missing?

1:14:27Probably empathy. I can probably just narrow it out to that, like a very shallow understanding of what the other person was going through. It's remarkable to me now to think about it. You know, it's like, how do two people who love each other so desperately go through the same event? And cannot grieve together. Can't see the other one's grief. How is that even possible? Yeah? Just a few years later, he gets diagnosed with cancer after you've separated. Yeah.

1:15:14These moments in life can have an interesting influence on our perspective. How do we feel about somebody in a situation? How did it influence your perspective, his diagnosis? Peter was the type of person who never got sick. He'd walk around Manhattan and went to a time with like a windbreaker. He didn't get cold. He just didn't get sick. And even in our separation, and we had then agreed to get divorced, he was always very like valiant. He just was not a person who fell. I don't know how else to describe it. You know, that he just wasn't tall and big and just barrelled through life. And for him to be diagnosed that way with Burkins lymphoma, which is a cancer that is not curable, but at the time, as oncologists, we're like, okay, you're going to do radiation.

1:16:24You're going to do chemo. There's no surgery really because it just attacks the lymph nodes everywhere. And there's no way to get rid of all the tumors of the best thing to do is try to shrink them. And hopefully to go away. Okay, I mean, we didn't know any better. But by the time his cancer was deemed terminal, all of the anger and misunderstanding and baddles over the different events in our life really did not matter. It did not matter. And I realized that like, you know, there's probably sound so corny to say and maybe feels like a throwaway thing that like, oh, when you're faced with, you know, the finality of life, you just realize that, you know, you let go of it and it's not automatic like that.

1:17:19You make a choice. We had to make a choice. He had to ask me the question for us to reconcile. I had to decide that that is what we're going to do. We had to make a choice to have the conversations which were about forgiveness. We had to make the choice to look at every day and say, okay, what are we going to do today that is going to prepare us for the end? You recount a case you had with him, a case of forgiveness. Yeah. I mean, it was, it was unlike the first kiss. And the first kiss where it's like the butterflies and you're not sure how much pressure to apply and, you know, should I open my mouth a little bit?

1:18:07Should I give him a little tongue or no? You know, it wasn't that kiss. It was the kiss of knowing 13 years have gone by in a very complicated relationship, a full of the challenges of being an interracial couple and him understanding my experience or not, me understanding his experience and not. You know, the challenges of health and our parents getting sick and all of the things, my ambition for my career, his, you know, lack of understanding of that. It was just all of the things, you know? And to be in that moment and then to say, okay, we're going to be together until the end because that's what we promised.

1:19:03You know, and to truly kiss and make up, I think that's another like casual statement people say, you know, kiss and make up. It's like, no, no, you like that covenant of like, we are in this again to the end. And I won't leave. And you didn't leave. No. No. To the end. To the last heartbeat.

1:19:37How'd you say goodbye to someone?

1:19:45You know, I don't know that you do. I haven't. You know, there's, um, there is the physical loss, of course, right? And grief in that is complicated also. You know, because no, I can't pick up the phone and call him or he can't see his wide smile. That's something I did or his scowl if I do something wrong, you know? Um, I have multiple griefs of that. I have grief that Lail will never know her dad in the way that I wish he knew him. You know, he'd like so desperately want to be a father and he loved her so deeply that I grieve for her in that not knowing. But there is also for me the understanding that he really is still around.

1:20:59This is where it's like everybody's like, oh, she sees dead people. Like, sort of, you know, because I do believe in like the signs and wonders of things. It's happened too many times for me not to. You know, and it's, um, it feels very much like my intuition, you know, where I'm just like, oh, you know, I know what he would have thought about X, Y and Z thing. I know. I don't know. You know, and so to some degree, it's like, I still feel his presence because I am aware of how he would be if he were here. Despite all of this, despite rising over and over again, your career continued on. Mm -hmm.

1:21:44Yeah. You worked at Endeavour, a big company that owned like the UFC and WWE, etc. Yes, yes, yes. Beats, Uber, Netflix, Apple. Apple. Oh, yeah. All the things.

1:22:01It doesn't seem like there was a huge time for pause and for, you know, because you just seem to get right back at it all the time. I mean, that's what it appears when you look at the chronological nature of these events. Yeah. How have all of these personal tragedies fed into your career? And what role has your career continued to play in dealing with these personal tragedies? Yeah. Um, well, I think especially Peter's death, um, made me impatient. Impatience the wrong word, but it kind of feels like impatience with life. Agent? Yes, urgent for sure. The origin life. Um, because I just have a much better understanding of not wasting my time or my energy.

1:23:01Well, I look at your story and I see someone who doesn't hang around if they don't like something. You know, um, and this kind of brings on another point because there's contradictory, career advice often we get. It says, you know, you should stay somewhere long enough because if you leave too quickly, then people are going to look at your resume and think, why are we only there for two years or why we're united for a little while. But then if, you know, so like where'd you sit on this? I went to know to quit. And also there's this overarching phrase, which is like quitting as Falleux's. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

1:23:27Oh gosh, well, look, I get criticism of that. All the time where people are just like, oh, well, she can't handle adversity. And I'm like, me? Are you out of your mind? It's like, if there was a post for child, it would be me. It would be me. You know, no, it's not that I can't handle adversity. I just put myself first. Are you selfish? Yes, very much so. But that is not a bad thing. I am at the center of my life. No one is above me in my life. No one, not even my kid. And she knows that. And I tried to instill the same in her. No one should be above her in her life. Because the thing is that like, look, the life that you're living is yours.

1:24:14And I cannot be a great contributor to society. And this sounds a little like counterintuitive, but I can't be a great contributor to society. I can't be a good friend. I can't even be a good mom if I am not living the life that I want to live. If I'm not wholly happy in it. So absolutely I'm selfish. When you left UB you're quoted as saying, you don't need to be the savior. I think when referencing the state of the company, because it was going through a very tumultuous time, you can save yourself too. Yes. And save yourself first is what I should have said. You know, it's like, it's all of the ways in which we think about it now, right?

1:24:50You get on a plane. They're going through the safety demonstration. They tell you to put your mask on first before you help anybody else. Yes. And in your life too, yes, save yourself first. What was the career advice that you wish someone had given you? You know, like that young, spiky receptionist. Be selfish in your life, in your career. Think about yourself all of the time. And what does being selfish mean? Meaning that when you're in a situation that doesn't serve you, you think of yourself first. Oftentimes we're in these situations that aren't serving us and we're thinking about how the other person go and feel.

1:25:26But that means that it's the uncertainty that that creates that scares people, right? Like, well, I can just, I've got this job and I quit it. Where am I going to go? And like, what am I going to do if I leave this relationship? What am I going to do? Where am I going to go? Well, but you should answer that. I'm not saying that you quit without the answer. I'm saying you quit. You know, it's like, if you keep putting it off, if you keep saying, well, I don't know what I'm going to do. So I'm just going to, then you're going to waste your life away. You're going to be so unhappy. You're going to have the Sunday's scary all the time.

1:25:56You're going to feel the it when you're with that person. You are going to be unsatisfied with your life. And that is the scariest thing. I do not want to be on my deathbed being unsatisfied with the life that I lived. I could go tomorrow and I would be so satisfied with this life. Why? Oh, because I've done the things I wanted to do. Now, look, I have goals. It doesn't mean I don't have my ambition. It's not like I don't want to do the next thing. I do want to go to Antarctica at some point. I have not been yet. You know, but if I went now, I've lived this life on my own terms. Like, there is nothing that I did where I feel like, oh, man, I shouldn't made a different choice.

1:26:38What are you good at? Like, when you do the diagnosis of your skill set and what brought you here? Because you've had these incredible, incredible, incredible, career. Yeah. But, you know, we're all bad at loads of stuff. And I think typically people are good at like a couple of things. Yeah. But that's enough. Yeah. What are you good at? I'm good at seeing the forest. The whole picture. And sometimes in a forest, you know that like, oh, you have to clear this area in order to make space for the little village. Because then those villagers can take care of the rest of this part of forest. That is like burning.

1:27:17You know what I'm saying? But sometimes people are only down at the trees. And then they can't see the burning part. And they can't see that they should clear over there. So that those people can get to the fire. I can see the forest. I can see the whole thing. And I can see like, okay, this needs to move there. This is it's helped me so much in my career for sure. It's like the change maker. And how does that make you a great market here? Yeah. Because I never look at a problem just as the problem. You know, it's like when I got to Uber, the problem was that there was a huge campaign that was like, delete Uber, right?

1:27:49People are like, oh, they're mad at the company because of lack of diversity in the sea suite. And they treat women horribly. And they're not paying the drivers. And oh, it's unsafe even to get in the car. And I went in and it's like, if I had just tried to like go after one thing, it would have been whack -a -mole. Yeah. You know, everywhere I do. Okay, pop this one down and this one pops up. You hit that one and that one pops up. But I can see the forest. I can say, ah, this is not an issue about whether or not Travis Kalanick hates women or hates black people. This is not about whether or not your driver is going to kidnap you.

1:28:22This is about trust. Do you trust the CEO of the company? Do you trust the driver when you get in the car? Do you trust anything about this whole situation, self -driving cars? You trust any of it? If you don't trust it, nothing I do is going to make you like the company. I could fix the issue of like, hell, make half of the sea suite people of color and women. And you would still be like, yeah, but they're gonna kidnap me. But the best people you've encountered in marketing. Mm -hmm. What do they have in common? They're great storytellers. They can make you believe anything. Those are great marketers.

1:29:01The ones who make you believe that you put on a pair of night keys and somehow you're now the Braun James. And how do they, what constitutes what makes a great story? It's close enough to the truth. If you do believe it. Yes. Well, when I put on any pair of shoes, I'm no the Braun James. But you probably walk more confidently. It's true. So maybe you weren't LeBron, but you're better version of yourself. If I want to be a great marketer and I'm currently not, what would you, you know, if Leo comes to you and she goes, Mama, I want to work in marketing. What's the best? What do I need to do to become a great marketer?

1:29:39What would you say to Leo? Be more curious about people. Ask a lot of questions about people. Why do they do the things they do? Why do they like the things? And ask, keep asking the questions. Like, you've got to be really curious about people in order to be a great marketer. Because you can't just rely on what you know in your experience. It's even though I do say that you should be a focus group of one. It's like, if you like the thing, maybe somebody else will like the thing. If you mix your laugh, maybe somebody else will laugh. If it makes you scared, somebody else is going to get scared.

1:30:05If somebody else is going to get scared, if somebody else is going to be inspired, I believe that. But you also have to be really curious about why people choose the things that they choose. Why do they like the things they like? If you're not curious about people, you're going to suck at this job. What's the most important thing we've not talked about? And I really want to focus this a little bit more. There's going to be so many young people, not so young people that are listening to this conversation now. They look at your career and they go, I want to walk that path. I want to be the CMO of the biggest companies in the world.

1:30:37C of this company. What's your parting words to those people? Oh, gosh. That's such a hard one. Because the thing is that there is no path. If somebody tells you, like, do these steps in order to get to where I've got them lying to you, you're not going to get there based on the things I've done. The only way you're going to get there is by listening to yourself, is by following your intuition, is by doing the things that you're really good at. And leave the rest of that stuff that you're not good at, that other people are trying to advise you, leave that alone. So there's any advice, get to know yourself better.

1:31:11That's it. We often confuse aspiration with admiration. We can admire someone without aspiring to walk that path. And I think, remember reading a poem one day about the only great person you can be is the greatest version of yourself. It's super cliche, but it's still in the public. Because I cannot be Steve Jobs or Thomas Edison, I'm not only thinking, it's not my greatness. No, exactly. Don't try to be me. Ever. I'm sure people are still going to try. There's a closing tradition we have in this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're leaving the question for.

1:31:45And the question left for you is, what moment in your journey made you fight even harder to get to where you are right now? I mean, we talked about it. It is Peter's last heartbeat. That moment, that moment, it just changed the way I look at life. I just don't want to get there not having lived exactly the life that I want. It changed everything for me. And so I refuse to succumb to anything that is not in my destiny for my greatness and my happiness. That's it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Your book is incredible. It's been an incredible journey of truth and vulnerability and humanity and so many, so many of the things that you're clearly, I mean, now it makes sense as to why the writing is so good and the storytelling is so great because you clearly have a love for words and reading and storytelling and that comes through in your work.

1:32:53But you've walked an incredible career path that is just inspiring just on the grounds that it happened. But you have a remarkable ability to draw out wisdom from that career which makes it even more powerful. So that's exactly what you've done today. Thank you so much. It's been an honor to meet you and your energy is quite infectious. Oh, so thank you. Thank you. Thank you for the listening. Thank you. Really, really appreciate it. I appreciate it.

1:33:38Q1 is often when businesses start implementing new systems and processes in hopes of creating efficiencies for the year ahead. And over the course of my career, I've learnt just how crucial having the right systems in places, one which has helped me across many of my investments is NetSuite. They're also a sponsor of this podcast. NetSuite is the number one cloud financial system through their streamlined platform. You'll find all of your accounting financial management inventory and HR in one place. Their technology has been a real game changer, especially for my team at Flight Studio. As over the last year, we've moved out of startup mode and into scale at mode.

1:34:13We no longer have to juggle multiple systems and having everything together has reduced the number of manual tasks and errors. Over 41 ,000 businesses have chosen to future -proof their business with NetSuite. So if you'd like to learn how it can help your business, head to netsuite .com slash Bartlett and free download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning. That's netsuite .com slash Bartlett.