Corrupt Police Officer: I Arrested Drug Dealers, Then Sold Their Drugs! There’s Massive Corruption Going On Today! - Mike Dowd

24:27I was like, nah, my partner, nah, let him go. It's late. Someone flags us down. Hey, this guy's trying to steal tires off a car. So now I said, look, we got civilians complaining about the same people that we should have just tossed. Turn around, go back about two or three blocks, guys dead in the street. And I see a tire iron. So I said to the people, was there, were they carrying a jack or a tire iron and they go, yeah, they point over to the street where the tire iron was taking the wheels off a car. This guy could have shot us. Like, he's dead. It could have been us. Or if we did toss this guy, he could not be dead.

25:12So when you come back close to death itself, your survival instincts give you an ability to disconnect fairly quickly from those types of scenes. Did you ever show up to a scene where you saw someone dead or dying and feel sad? Yes. Yeah.

25:33Yeah. Yeah, a couple of times. More important. One one that strikes me. I was talking to the guy. I was going out. I even know he's going to die. You know, he was just, uh, he was stabbed in the stomach and, uh, he's looking at me and he was getting cold. I go, yeah, it's going to be okay. He says, getting cold off his eye. Are you going to be okay? We're going to get you to our hospital. You know, the ambulance showed up like five minutes later. And he was barely conscious when he got on the ambulance. And he wasn't going to make it. And he, he died. And I was sad because I couldn't do anything for him.

26:04Like, you saw a lot of stuff. Why did that affect you? I felt bad because I was talking to him. Knowing he's going to die. Like, and at one other time, I felt really bad. And some guy who was, I guess he was getting laid. Young guy, big heavy set, strong, powerful black guy. His, his wife is like, I looked at her. She goes, I'm like, I knew I could tell it was a sexual thing. They had sex. And fucking, I was like 35 years old. And he, he was either dead or dying. He had a heart attack. And, uh, I wanted to give him CPR. But it would be my first actual CPR case, you know. And the two cops I were working with going, I don't worry about it.

26:53Go, go get the ambulance. Don't worry about it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's going to be okay. Don't worry about it. Go get the ambulance. I'm like, shouldn't we do CPR? No, no, no. You go outside. But I was a kid. I was a rookie. And these two old times was like, don't worry about it. It's going to be all right. Go outside and, and direct the ambulance in. Like two minutes later, the ambulance showed up. They started CPR on the guy and he died. To not render aid when you think you can make a difference, that hurts. Why did they tell you not to render aid to him? I don't know. I don't know why. They didn't tell me why, you know.

27:30And it was very disheartening because I think I could have helped save the guy. But what am I going to do? Ressel with these guys and, you know, they go get the different charge. Seeing your cop on the scene is in charge. At some point you started actually dealing drugs. Yeah. How did you start getting into drugs? When did, when was that Ureca moment that you've realized that you could sell drugs? My partner at the time took some home out of the blue. And he came back and handed me a couple hundred dollars one day. I said, what's that for? He goes, that shit we've been throwing out is cocaine.

28:02We had thrown it out no more. I got somebody that wants it. So he's bringing me cash. I was like, okay, well, it's saying that bad. I mean, it was for me. I was like, I didn't see it. I didn't do it. So I was okay with it. And then it becomes like anything else. It so offends the blow for the next step. And eventually I would lead to you just whatever dope I found I would take. And if I couldn't find it, I'd see one of the drug dealers and say, give me something. Or give me something for discount. I mean, that's it becomes you become a market maker at that point. Did you start buying it to sell it for these drug dealers?

28:38At some points I started buying it. Yeah. How bad did it get with the drug dealing when you were a cop? Because it almost sounds like you've at this point given up being a cop enforcing the way. So here's, but it's a dichotomy, right? Because I put the uniform on. I go to work. And if you are not in the drug business, you're going to get a good police officer. In my, from my perspective, you may never say that. You may never agree with it. But if you were had a car accident and you needed a police officer to take the report, bring it to a hospital. I would do all the arrangements. Do it at best I could.

29:06If you had get robbed, I would do the report. I'd take you to a hospital if you were injured. You know, whatever need, I mean, I respond if I could proper police officer. But if you were in the drug business, you were mine. You were mine. Simple. I mean, I was, can I say it? What do you mean by you were mine? You were mine. I owned you. In what regard? In whatever you got. Whatever I wanted. You were mine. You could take their drugs. Whatever I wanted. Your car if I wanted it. Did you ever take someone's car? I didn't have to. I gave me one. What else? Whatever. Coats, jackets, gold, whatever.

29:46Chains. What was your biggest heist as a police officer? I would say, why aren't that large? I just say 40 to 50 ,000 at one time. Which back then was good money. You know, you're talking about two years salary. You know. Yeah, if you're in like 20, 30 ,000 dollars, whatever. Yeah. Getting 40 ,000 is. Yeah, double my salary. Triple my salary. Yeah, that yeah. Things like that come along. You know, so it was opportunities. So you would call that a score, right? A post to an ongoing thing. Because like, boom, it's there. It's a one hit and a one and it's over. Every job in East New York, 9 out of 10 was involved with drugs.

30:28You're exposed to it. It's your choice on how you deal with it. You're the boss. You are the boss. You show up. You're the boss. Where your colleagues around you doing the same. The accurate answer is somewhere. The best description is you would never know. You would never know. I might because I know what's going on. But if you were a cop that was not involved, you would never know. So the good cops wouldn't know that it was happening. You wouldn't know. Because I'm not going to tell you. Now, if you happen to say something to me that you, hey, wait a minute. Something went down there. I'd say, and what do you want to do about it?

31:11You want in? I'll tell you a funny story. Let me go to the scene. I don't want to describe it because it's lengthy. Long story short, the cops show up with the cops, but the cops show up behind us. And they go, oh, that's down this part. Leave them alone. And they turn around and they walk away. So the office is new. Just, just, I don't want to see what they're doing because they're not uncomfortable or responsible for what they're doing. And that's how it became. And what were you doing in that scene? Colcane and heroin. My partner wanted the guns. I said, what are you going to do with the guns?

31:45There's money. There's money. That's a gun. And people are dead. So the guns may be connected to the crime. So just. When you should have put a scene like that, how do you and you arrive there and there's guns, there's money, there's drugs. How do you get the money and the drugs without other offices seeing you? It's funny. I catch you get it out to put it in the back of the police car. So one time I put it in a laundry bag which was loaded up with heroin and cocaine and I don't know, whatever else was in there. And I happened to be lucky. There was a row of garbage pails along this person's entranceway as the sergeant was working up the stairway to investigate the scene with us.

32:26To secure it and make sure that everyone's doing what they're supposed to do. I take this bag and I go like this and I put it in the garbage bag. He comes up to me. I go, serge, there's a guy dead in the doorway. They shot him through the eye hole. I said, there's another guy shot upstairs and there's a bunch of guns and stuff up there. I go, but there's so many cops here, I'm going to go 98, which means I'm going to go back on patrol. He goes, good. Like, good idea. I'm like, good. But we agree. So that gets me away from the scene. So now he goes up the stairs. I go back into the garbage. Pick up the green laundry bag and put it in my car and I leave.

33:04So now I got to go to a drug dealer. Get rid of it. And then you get loads of cash. Eventually. And what you do with the cash? In that specific case, I drove right to my drug dealing friend's place who had a rhodobody, a rhodosound city. They put the sound into cars. I went right to his shop. I dropped off the dope with him and he called his buddy that sold heroin in the area. And so I want to sell it for them. That recycle's back into money. Will you ever scared? No. No. Should you have been? I should have been more cautious. Did you ever think you were going to get cool? You know, it was in the back of my mind for probably five years.

33:42Just never left. And thus, thus, you constantly are. Your anxiety levels up. Your body starts to go numb. And you wonder what's wrong with me? What's wrong with you? You're living by three different lives. You know, you have a wife, you have a girlfriend, you have drugs, you're a cop, you're selling drugs, you're shaking people down. Well, everything's just fine. It's never good. You have a wife and a girlfriend? Yeah, most of the time. And you have kids? At that time, one. And did anybody know what you were doing at home? I would live that up to her. But the main coats and the new cars and the trips around the world.

34:26You don't do them on a cop's salary. But you never said it. She knew. Enough. And did she ever give you advice about what you were doing? Stop. That's what she said. Stop. I don't need this. I rather have you. Imagine that. That's a nice feeling in a way, right? I rather view it sleep under a bridge. That's what she said. Yeah. You're ex -wife. Yeah. And why didn't you stop? You can't. You can't. You can't stop that. It's not that easy to stop that. I read the story that someone, a lieutenant, had put a complaint against you for a trivial matter. And you retaliated by reporting them to internal affairs for being in a drug house.

35:12And then this sort of led to a situation where you received death threats over the phone from that lieutenant. Yeah. I'm working in Corny Island. I was sent to Corny Island to get away from each New York because they knew I was at. I mean, the story is so big and deep. It's just crazy. The bottom line with him was, I end up in a dispute with him somehow. He's a cop. Yeah. Yeah. I had Mercedes -Benz. 380, Mercedes -Benz, whatever it was. His license plate on the back of his car said, be Scott. Less than a month later, about three weeks later, I'm out in the island. And there's the car. There's only one B -Scott, all right, New York plate.

35:50And I pulled over and I said to my wife, it's a time I said, get a good look at this guy. And he went up into a crack house. There's only one crack house in the whole neighborhood and that was it. He went up into it and then he came out. So I left. I went home and I spoke to my neighbor who was my wife's uncle who was a detective in the 102 squad. It was 28 years on the job at the time. I said, listen, I want to talk to you. He goes, what's up? I told him the story of the scenario. And he goes, listen, Mike, anything but drugs. You got to turn them in. And it was hard for me to do this because now I'm turning on a guy that I know was involved in drugs.

36:27And I know what I had done previously. So I called on Turn -Off here. They were at my house in 45 minutes. Like, hello. I mean, my house, I left 45 minutes from them. They were at my house in 45 minutes. They do an interview with me, a long story short. They put a line up in front of me and picked the guy out. So later on, within a week or so, I'm getting phone calls to my house at 2, 3 in the morning. But this every day, it's going on every day. For about a month's length of time. So finally I go, what do you want, bro? Enough is enough. I'm fucking your wife. Every time you go to work, I'm fucking her.

37:07Oh, really? Yes, she gets off the train alone, Railroad. And I put her up, I bring her home, and I fuck her out. Oh, okay. Thank you very much. I said, why don't you come by and we're straightening it out right here. It was me. He goes, why don't I put a bullet in your fucking head while you're standing there in front of the window? So he could see you. I don't know. Did you put plot to kill him? No. Why would I plot to kill his guy? Well, because it sounds like he wants to kill you. Well, that's different now. But I didn't. Because I didn't know who it was. It took me years to figure out who it was.

37:44But in the interim, I ran into him again. I essentially arrested him without arresting him. I gave him summons, which is an arrest in a way. And he was so pissed off he made a complaint against me. And you know, he was suspended at this point. He was suspended. Oh, so he was a civilian when you were arrested. When he was suspended, he was an officer on suspension. OK. And he was suspended for being the gun in a drug case in Harlem. He was the collector in Harlem for a drug organization. It turns out. What's the collector? He was the strong man. So if you owed money to a drug organization, he would not have collected it.

38:20OK. So he was off. He was a police officer who had a job collecting money for a drug organization in Harlem. You met a guy called Baron Press. Yes. Who's Baron Press? Baron Press is the guy who owns Auto Sound City at the time. He was what you call a middleman in any deal in Brooklyn. So he ran a car shop, which was a front for a cocaine. He was not a front. He had been a legitimate business. But in his business, would be all the dealers in Brooklyn would come in. And did you, is that where you met like a company? Yes. What is a like company? A company was a Dominican drug organization that ran small nickel and dime spots throughout the city, lots of them, like dozens of them.

39:02And they were basically based out of bodegas. And you were a cop at the time when you met them? Yes. And they're one of the most powerful drug organizations in New York City at the time? At the time, yes. But they were street level mostly. They had their own, they had their own organizational structure. But they they dealt with all the street level bodegas. And at the time you're getting paid $600 a week as a cop? No, every two weeks. Every two weeks as a cop. You're making $300 a week as a cop. And this drug gang offered you how much money to protect? It offered me anything. I told them if they wanted to protection, it was $8 ,000 a week.

39:39And what did they say when you said that? We'll pay it. So they paid you $8 ,000 a week this drug gang? For the first week. And then they were shorted me $700. What does shorted mean? Short. They were short 700. Okay. So they paid me $7 ,300 instead of $8 ,000. So I told them I need to rest in the money. The deal is a deal. And they said, you know, we're not paying you. But we're done. So then I threatened them and I shut their business down. I parked police cars in front of their business for a week. And they put a hit on me. What does it mean when someone puts a hit on you as a police officer?

40:16What does that mean? They suggest to anybody that is willing to shoot and kill this cop. They'll pay them. And how did you find out that this drug gang of put a hit on you? Well, because Baron Perez knows everybody in the city, in the drug business, because he does their cars. He said, is it hit on you? He said, by the company here. He said, okay. I went out that same day. I saw his car. I never met the guy in my life, but I knew his car, the company, the boss. I pulled him over. He didn't know who I was. I told him, it was like this registration. I just threw the papers back in his lap. I said, you put a hit on me.

40:51He turned his way. I said, is that pen? Because now I'm standing over him. And he's sitting down a little tiny, Reynolds. Looked up at me. I said, if you want to put it on me, we'll clear it up right here. I'll let you get out of the car. We'll do 10 pays walkoff. You turn around. I'll turn around. And we'll shoot it out. Did you mean that? I met it everywhere. You don't say something not mean when you talk about guns and weapons. What if he said yes? It was on. I wasn't going to snath. It was going to not let him. Were you not scared? I was crazy. I don't know. I didn't think of fear. I was looking to win.

41:25What did he say? No, no, no. I said that. Well, you take the hit off. My page went off 20 minutes later. And he said, they hit so off. I don't want to do any more business with you. There was a 700 hours. Please leave us alone. So you got your $700 in the end? Yeah. And that was the end of your relationship with them. Let's look up on the year. Correct. At some point after that, you met a guy called Adam Diaz. Correct. Who is a much bigger Dominican drug dealer? Correct. Adam was two, three levels above them. You know, he was like the guy that gets to 1500 kilos and distributes it out. And he's making a million dollars a week.

41:57And he's selling what 50 million a year in cocaine? Correct. Yeah. How did you come to meet him and what was the arrangement? From Baron. Same way I met the company. Through that car shop. Yes. Correct. Then we had a nice sit down him and I. We had a discussion. I said, if you want to talk to me, you'd bring 24 ,000 dollars in cash. I don't know why I didn't say 25. So he agrees he wants to go. He wants to talk to you. Yeah. And what does he say in the meeting? We sit down and I explained to him what I can do. What can you do? Nothing really, but I make it up. What did you say? I said, I can surveil your buildings and your locations.

42:31And if I know of any impending raids, I could give you a heads up. I said, but one thing I did say to him and I'll say to the camera, if anybody gets hurt, I'm giving myself and you up. I said, because that's not what this is about. We agreed to with the terms. I'll do what I can for you. I said, I can't promise you anything. But I will do what I will do for you as the best that I can. I mean, Diaz started paying me 8 ,000 a week. I said, I'm now making 8 ,000 a week. I explained it with my partner. We didn't deserve any of it, but whatever. And it was more than the president of the United States at the time.

43:05I mean, that's a pretty powerful feeling for a civil servant cop. So you couldn't really do anything for him. Very little. You could do very little for him, but you promised him a lot. Yes. And he actually performed for him. So he originally paid you $24 ,000. For the conversation. Just for the conversation. Correct. And then he paid you 8 ,000 dollars a week. Yes. Wow. And there was a particular time where you did actually save him some money. More than once. Yes. I probably was involved with here at this point for about three or four weeks. I was able to pick off a pending raid that I didn't know they were going into his store.

43:40But I knew there was a raid going to happen. So I walked him into the store picked up two high niggas. Walked up to the counter opened up the high niggas and told the guy. I didn't know the guy behind the counter. I go shut it down. I shut it down. He looks at me. I go shut it down. He don't know me. I don't know him, but he knows. I walked outside. And I say within an hour and a half, they were hit with a team of 30, 40 narcotics detectives. And I don't think they found a gram of salt in the place. And there was another occasion where you saved Adam Diaz. Well, that's when they got the robbery with the with Coke and Franklin.

44:20So Franklin and Coke with the local bandits. They robbed all the drug dealers because they were just straight up killers. They didn't care. And they went to his spot and they're not going to kill you. They don't have to. If you give up the shit. So the kid walked them upstairs. Elvis was his name. Walked them upstairs to the apartment with all the drugs and all the money in it. And they gave as much as they could up. Someone called 911. And I hit Mark one right down there. And I pulled out was the first car on the scene. I jumped out and Elvis goes. Elvis is telling me that he just robbed us. So I shut it out.

44:50We're on the scene. No further. I think it's a 90x rate, which means it's unfounded. So that would stop the police approaching the location. Basically, I have the scene closed down. There's a guy upstairs. There's a cops upstairs taking shit out. Like cash and drugs. There were cops. The thieves couldn't get it all. There was just too much. I go, what are you guys doing? This is crazy how this happens. They go, we found, I go, listen, do you have a search warrant to go in that house? The young cop. And I'm seeing a guy at the scene. And they go, no, I go, so what are you doing? And you can't just go in there and take the shit out.

45:24Technically, you can't, but you can because it's an exigent circumstance. You're allowed. So they got bags of cocaine and money. So I got the cops to put the cocaine and the money back. In the fucking house. Don't ask me how, but they did. A quick word about our sponsor, LinkedIn. Money and time are two of the most valuable resources in business, as you'll know. And when used in the right way, they create monumental shifts. But when mismanaged, they hold you back. And this is especially true when it comes to be to be marketing. If your team is spending time and money trying to reach your target audience without any clear plan on how to actually guarantee this, well, I can guarantee you're probably stumbling around in the dark.

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46:35And he was shot in the head by associates at La Campanilla. And you were the first cop to arrive on the scene of Office of Enable who later died in the hospital. And you said that you had a lot of guilt over it. Yes. Well, because it's just the whole thing. I was involved in drugs in East New York. And I was involved in protecting drug organizations. And now a cop that I didn't know was killed. And that doesn't matter that it didn't know him. Because he says a cop. You know, that's, you know, it's not acceptable. It just the fact that a cop was killed is not acceptable. And now the guilt that I lived with was that I was protecting people that may have either dealt with those people or been associated with those people.

47:19He killed the cop. But they killed the cop. And that's, you know, everything's, what does Tyson say? Everything's, it's all good until someone punches you in the fucking nose. Well, that's like getting punched in the nose. Like, what am I really doing? It was hard to swallow. I mean, I don't think, I don't think it, there's no excuse. But what's the answer to that? It's not behavior that or it's, first of all, in East New York, the cops are the greatest in the fucking world. Okay. They dealt with the worst scenarios that mankind can present. And at that point, no cop had ever been killed in East New York.

48:01Some have been shot. Some have been injured. But no, on duty police officer had been killed ever in East New York till that day. It's almost like it was connected to it. And so it was tough. It was tough on me as a human being, never mind as a cop that was doing wrong. I mean, we allowed them to stay in business. Even though there was little you could do, the fact that you knew what they were doing and the fact that you partook in some of the spoils of it, you feel that you're directly connected and responsible. When you say you feel bad, how did that manifest like, literally and specifically?

48:43Well, I would say that that's when I really took that turn in. And then I went into drugs and alcohol more deeply. And that's when I ended up probably three to six months later. I ended up in a rehab. About six months later, I ended up in rehab. Were you depressed? What a cop does, what I did was I would go in my bathroom, closed the door, and read the paper and cry. Now, I don't deserve any sympathy for that. It's just it was my way of letting go of all the guilt I was living with throughout my career as a cop. You go in your bathroom, read the newspaper and cry. Just because it was like a, it was a way to release all the built up, I don't know what the proper word is for this at this point, stress, anxiety, guilt.

49:33Because I was, I knew my internal strife about what I was doing was wrong. I was not able to publicly grieve. Oh, I really feel bad right now. What do I do? You know, I robbed drug dealers and I sold some cocaine and now there's a cop dead as a result of cocaine. Who do I tell that to? It's my own prison. At this time, you run drugs. Is what you were taking drugs? Alcohol drugs at this point. Also, you were losing your marriage. Correct. I want to be accurate. I'm on the reason I went. Even in spite of losing my marriage and my kids in my house, it wasn't the driving force. The driving force was, I was going to lose my job.

50:20That was the driving force. At this point, I didn't want to lose the job. I'd rather leave the job on my own terms than lose the job. Who would you become? I became the direct result of poor decisions and the environment that I was in, which I could see looking back at the time. I became, whatever was in the environment, I became part of the environment. I was no different than the people that were selling crack cocaine. Or Robin, people, or Robin drug dealers, because they all did each other that way. So, a lot of people say, well, that's the environment they grew up in. You know what? I can see that.

50:59I can relate to that. I doesn't excuse the behavior. We all know that. It's no excuse to the behavior. I became the environment I was living in. If I'd asked your wife at the time, what's Mike like as a human? What would she have said to me at that point when she probably said he's a lost soul and an asshole? I wasn't a nice. You become, you become God. Like you get the God complex. Like you feel indestructible. But you see yourself declining. Like it's the weirdest thing in the world. You know you're going down a rabbit hole. But the whole time you have this false armor on. What's the rabbit hole you are going down it?

51:47Drugs, alcohol, women, violence. Violence is coming. You know, I mean, you're turning into a violent potential killing machine. I was going to become the exact thing that you would have said you don't belong in the street ever in your life again. And you went to rehab and when you're coming out of rehab, your intent is to straighten up your life. I came home. You know, it was it was it was an eye opener because I thought great. I'm going to get a fresh thought. It turned out that when you become a straight lace guy, when you've been known to be corrupt, the process of getting to become a police officer in full respect is very, very difficult.

52:34Maybe never. It may never happen. So in my case, because I tried to do the right thing and I'm not trying to. I'm not trying to shift responsibility because it's always your own responsibility. Because I was trying to do the right thing. Cops got nervous because this isn't the guy we heard about. So that means he's here to set us up. So when you came back from rehab, they thought you were working as an informant. Yes, very well played. Yes, that's what they thought that I was now working for the man. And I was here there to get them. And what did that mean in terms of how they treated you? So they would be they would shut me not want to work with me, not want to partner with me, not want to back me up, not invite me to any social gatherings.

53:15So I was basically an outcast now. I went from being the guy that ran shit to an outcast. And what did that mean for you as a cop? Well, it meant that you isolated. Yeah. And that you had no camaraderie. You didn't have the the reason that you enjoy being a cop because you had brotherhood, camaraderie, safety, protection. Like any organization that you belong to, you know, and I basically didn't have that anymore. And that affected me in my decision making going forward from there. So I just couldn't stay stopped. It's like being an alcoholic. You can stop it. You got to stay stopped. How long were you in rehab for?

53:51Two years. You're in rehab for two years. Yeah. Not locked away in rehab, but what do they call modified assignment for two years? Okay. And you tried to resign slash retire from the police on disability at one point. Well, I was hoping that they would offer it. Right. Yeah. Messages would be in drop. Disguise no good. They're going to arrest them soon. If he continues on, you know, the words to me where you're going out one way or the other. And it's not through disability. You either get arrested or fired. Someone looking at the story would probably go, why didn't you, if you knew that they were onto you.

54:23If you knew that they were investigating you following you for months and months and months. Why didn't you just stop? You know when the kid goes into the barn. And there's a pile of hay and shit in manure. And someone tells them there's a diamond ring in the middle that pile of shit. And the kid gets a shovel and he starts shovel and looking for that diamond ring. That's how I, that's who I am. I'm that guy looking for that little diamond in that pile of shit. I'm an optimist. You thought it would be okay. Listen, I was in prison for, well, I was sentenced to 14 years, which by the way was a pretty fair sentence overall, yes.

55:04And every day in prison, I thought the next day I'd go home. And I did that for 12 and a half years. That's how, that's how powerful the mind is. I was born in 92 and in 92, that's quite significant for you because this is the year you were arrested. Correct. What happened that day? Take me into that day when you were arrested by the police department. So it's 92. The day after Andy King writes, May 4th, May 5th, I had just made a deal with Kenny Urell, my ex partner, who was in a cocaine business with him, his wife and his friends at the bowling alley. Kenny Urell kept calling me up for drugs because the price had doubled.

55:43And he knew that if anyone could get it, I could. And I did. So I got him a couple of packages of cocaine. Let's say three or four. And the meantime, his phones are tapped because he was the target of an investigation on the island. The following day, I'm driving around and my radio is extremely quiet. No one's quiet. I'm the eight, nine fourths quiet anyway, the Williamsburg area, but really quiet for less two or three days. And I'm getting a little suspicious. I just picked it up a package off with Kenny. I pull up to the station house and I see a car there that looks strange. And I see two guys in the front seat.

56:15I walk into the station house. My partner. And I, the desk offers a, he points. He says the captain wants to see you. In walks these two guys that were in the car that were out in front of the precinct. But their badges out with ten and so on. So in general affairs, we're taking you for a drug test. And sure enough, went downstairs, got changed. I couldn't even get changed. I couldn't get my clothes off. They were so close to me. I couldn't bend my knee. It was like, bite of my ass. Like, excuse me guys. And he said, am I under arrest? They go, no, no, no, are you sure? Because you're roughly close here.

56:47Anyway, they put me in a car. I get in the back of the car. I say I got a smoke. I got cocaine in my pocket now. Because I didn't see my clothes. I couldn't take it out and leave it in my locker with them standing it. I go, you guys can you open a window? I'm smoking a cigarette. I'm like, I'm chain smoking. Yeah, it's okay. We'll be all right. Are you sure you guys are going to choke out? I can't take the cocaine and throw it out the window. Anyway, they pull up to one left -fract city. And there's probably 60 cops. Sergeant's lieutenants, captains, inspectors. All lined up with their brass on, all in uniform.

57:17I'm like, what the fuck is this? For a drug test? A little strange. I got out of the car. I go, I can't dump it here. They're right. I can't even dump the coke. So I got upstairs to 16th floor. And there's the lieutenant who's been waiting for me for years. He was down. How are you? I got a good, sir. How are you? Good. He gave me the cup to go take a piss. I hit just on a bump and a fucking, an abatka. So I knew I was hit. I turned around and in walks my mother's cousin from Suffolk County Police Department who's stood out. You're under arrest for conspiracy to just strip it like Alex. So did you think you were going to jail for the rest of your life?

57:55No, I'm not. I don't even think a week. I think I'm going to take a day. I think I'm going to make bail. I'm going to beat the charge. That's how I'm thinking. How did it feel when you got arrested? It was the biggest moment of relief. You know, you asked about life changing, you know, what lowest points. This was the best feeling in the world, almost, like almost. Like, I was like, finally it's over. It's finally over. I can go on with my life somehow. I didn't know it would take almost 15 years. Well, even more when you think about probation and below the ship, you relieved. When I was going to work every day, I was going to work with anxiety and fear.

58:43I no longer had to have that fear. It was gone. Of course, I didn't know what I would be facing. I think this will work out. Like, that's how I thought. You know, when you say you're going to work with anxiety and fear, earlier on you said you weren't scared of being arrested. I wasn't scared of being arrested. I was afraid of ruining my life. And living a double life, you know, I'm lying to my wife, I'm lying to my family, I'm lying to the department, I'm lying to myself, I'm lying to my young child, I'm two children at this point. You know, everything's a lie. So, there's anxiety and fear in that.

59:17The fear of arrests really never entered my mind. It's funny when you describe being arrested and you reference it almost like it was your moment of freedom. I still do today. Yeah. It was the best thing that ever happened to me. If I could capsuleize, put that in a bottle, a piece I had at that moment, I could probably live in that piece my entire life and wish for that piece. The piece that comes over you when that pressure comes off your life, because I no longer have to live a lie. Obviously, most people can't relate. Because they've never been in such a situation where they've been arrested.

59:56But I think to some degree, people can relate with the feeling of living a life that's like inauthentic to them. And then something happening which forces them to cause correct. Yeah, I mean, some people kill themselves. Other people overcome it and become the better version of themselves. Either they make lemonade out of the lemons or they go on to become ruinous. And I told you, I'm looking for that diamond and that pile of shit. So to me, it was freedom. How's your child now, your son? I have two. My oldest son is, he'll be turning 40. And my younger son is 33 or 4. So what advice based on your experience in that moment, would you give to your kids about living an authentic life and lying?

1:00:44So it's, and you'll know this from life itself, it's easier to tell the truth in the end than it is to lie. Because you have to remember the lies every day and live with the pressure of being uncovered. So accept the hard knocks that come along with living honestly. And you'll turn out to be a better person. So part of my lesson is, if you don't have any bumps in the road of life, you really don't know that much about life, right? You don't have, you have to learn how to overcome adversity. So go ahead, live a good life, do the best you can. And if it comes a point where you want to, let's say experiment with something or take risks, just accept the consequences.

1:01:32If you're going to stick up a bank, there's going to be consequences, maybe. And if there isn't any consequences, it's going to haunt you. There will eventually be a consequence. There's always a consequence. Everything has a cost. I think about that just in day to day interactions that it's like, it's easier to have the difficult conversation now versus avoiding it. And then it becomes an even more difficult situation. You're logical. People that live in fear of consequences, they don't think of that. They think of the immediate consequences, immediate gratification. That wants to get high because he wants to feel this now.

1:02:09But he doesn't realize that later on, that cost, the consequence to that job, career, freedom, future, you know, relationships, all the damage, one incident can cause. But if you own up to something immediately and accept responsibility for it, people have a choice then. You know who I am. You can either interact with me or not. But I don't have to have a false front on when I speak with you or interact with you. That must be quite a challenge still futile today because, you know, you know, I'm going to podcast you interview, talk about what happened in your life. And you, there's a lot of things that you did that are hard to say.

1:02:49But you're also battling with this new reality of being honest about everything. So it's not hard for me to say anymore because if you choose to have a conversation with me about those things, you're going to hear things that you may or may not like, but you chose to be in this conversation. You, your audience, people that, there's a lot of people that hate me out there, but I know this for a fact. I have people today reaching out to me that have attempted suicide 10, 15 times, cops that have, had the gun in their mouth and then they're unwoked in the room. And then I spoke to them the next day.

1:03:24I mean, if I can go down a list of them. So you never know what being honest and fully disclosing the tragedy of life or the experiences of life can do for the next person. And so that's really where I'm so happy that I've been able to do that. I have a purpose. And it keeps me connected. You know, look, once you're a cop, you sort of always a cop in a way. When there's going to be cops, he's never worth a cop. He was a bad guy. You know what? Fuck you. You eventually get released on bail after that first arrest, which I think comes to a lot of people's surprise because I think some people thought that you're going to be in prison for the rest of your life.

1:03:59But your family put up some assets to get you out on bail. That was a $350 ,000 bail. Right. It doesn't straighten you up. No, when I get out on bail, I'm clear headed, but I don't know what to do because I've never been in this situation. I don't have a job. I have two or three mortgages to pay. I have a kind of one. I ocean in my little beach. I have three homes. The tenants stop paying the rent because they saw I was arrested. Now I'm back in the chase again to try to get my life back together. And then it turns into a whole new scenario comes my way out out on bail. I end up making a plan to go to Nicaragua.

1:04:36They could become a shrimp fisherman. Wait, let's pause there a second. So you're out on bail and you plan to escape the US, which means that you'd be escaping your charges. Correct. But I can't go if I don't pay my family back. I can't leave them homeless. Okay. So when you go out on bail, your family are basically guaranteeing the money. Right. So if you don't return from bail, they got to sell their homes to pay my bill. They've got to get $350 ,000. Yes. So what you want to do is you want to get $350 ,000. Give it to your family. Correct. So that you can escape the US. Correct. Okay. Yes. And how would you plan to get that $350 ,000?

1:05:14There's a scenario comes my way. There's a woman that owes the struggle organization, half a million in cash and 10 kilos. All we have to do is go get the money from her and the drugs. And I could pay my family back and we can I can leave the country. And Kenny's going to join me. My partner's back in. But that wasn't the plan. The plan was never to kidnapper. The plan was to go in with some flowers. Push her out of the way. Take the money and the drugs. But Kenny's working for the federal government right now. We're in a wire. He called me up for the drugs that brought me into his conspiracy and they made me the kingpin of his conspiracy.

1:05:53How long did you know Kenny? I had known Kenny since 1985. So now it's 1992. So you know him a long time. Yes, seven years. You've been friends a long time. Yes. And Kenny intentionally wears a wire. Correct. And pulls you into a conspiracy. Correct. Working with the police. With the federal government. Yes. Where they're trying to get you to potentially kidnap this woman's deals with her stuff. And leave the country. So what does that do? It makes me take me from a low -life drug dealer to a all -life kidnapping murderer guy. So then I'll never go home. You see? You see how they did good. They're good.

1:06:31They take you from being a drug dealer. I was going to get 15, 20 years to a murderer, a kidnapper. You took the bait though. Took the bait. Swallow it like a pig. So you've left jail. You're out on bail. So Kenny starts putting it in your head this idea of potentially kidnapping or stealing from this woman. You don't know he's working for the police. And on the day of this attempted kidnapped slush robbery. Correct. You're arrested. Correct. Again. Again. And how does it feel the second time you're arrested? Relief again? No. Now I'm angry. Now I'm pissed off. I'm pissed off because you got to realize I'm a rat in a corner trying to get out.

1:07:17You throw some cheese in front of me. I go and eat the cheese. And then you poison the cheese, which is Kenny bringing the fucking poison pill to me of this kidnapping theory that unfolds. Why did you take the bait there? Why didn't you just because you talked to me. You said you had relief when you arrested that first time. That's the dichotomy of this whole thing. That was the greatest relief of my life. But I jumped back in like a fool. It was, you know, the word fear always comes out first for me. Fear of not being able to provide from now. I got a wife and two kids because I was told I'm getting 25 to life by the state of New York.

1:07:58That'll make anybody consider running. I don't give a fuck all you are. Now you're a police officer in your 30s, 25 to life. You know, you're getting 25. So maybe 30. So now I'm 30 something years old. If I get out at 60 maybe if I live through it, I'm looking to go. Bottom line. Now whatever opportunity comes along, I'm looking to hit on it. Whatever I can do. So I'm like that's fresh. The dangled bait eventually a fish going to bite that hook. What happens to the bail? Do you finally get to keep their money? Yes, because I got arrested. I got arrested. Eventually you're convicted of racketeering organized, which is based on the law.

1:08:34So basically an organized crime scheme and conspiracy to distribute narcotics. You serve 12 years and five months in prison. That day you went to prison. If I'd asked you how long do you think you're going to be here, what would you have said? So when I was sitting there waiting to get sentenced, I'm thinking I'm going to get seven, eight years. And sure enough, she was firm and gave me what she just thought I deserved. Mr. Dowd, that's 168 months. So I'm going, what the fuck's 168 months and she knew it. She goes, that's 14 years. How did you feel when you heard that? I was devastated. I was devastated.

1:09:11You don't know how you're going to react. I was pissed and devastated and how I got to survive this. Like now you go right to survival mode. I got to survive this. And how am I going to do that? People often think if you're like a cop and you get sent to prison, that you're going to have a really hard time. You are. Did you have a hard time? Yeah. But I was fortunate enough that, see, I went to prison as a, as basically a racketeer, right? So, and, and I worked with Dominican drug gangs. 30 % of the population is Dominican, Slash, Puerto Rican, Slash drug dealers in that realm. Then you have your street peddlers, which wouldn't be the same level.

1:09:54And then you have your white collar guys and your bank robbers. So, I was, I was a cop, I was sent to prison as a police officer, violating human rights for beating and abusing individuals. I was sent to prison for doing what everybody else in there was doing. So, the landing was a little bit different from me. Now, don't say it was not easy. I didn't have people opening a welcome mat for me. But there were some people that were kind and that helped make, made my bid go well. No matter where I am in the world, it seems like everyone is drinking matcha. And there's a good chance that that matcha you're drinking is made by a company that I've invested more than seven figures in who are a sponsor of this podcast called Perfect Ted.

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1:11:07And you can find Perfect Ted Matcha in the UK and Tesco, St. Spree's Holland and Barrett and in Waitrose or Albathein if you're in the Netherlands. And on Amazon in the USA, or get the full range online at perfectted .com. You can get 40 % off your first order using Codari 40. What about your family at this point? Your mum and dad, right? We're okay. Let's watch your head. Yes. Okay. I'm Carol Dowd and I'm Michael Dowd's mother. Well, I remember being in court. I only went to court once and that was the day of sentencing. And when they said the amount of days, he would be away. I didn't really, it didn't like hit my mind, right?

1:11:56Because it was in days, it wasn't in years, you know? And somebody says that could be 15 years. We tried to deal with it the best we could. Everything was going small in our lives. And all of a sudden, this hit. When I saw him, I guess my first reaction was I love him, but I want to just reach into the bars that you between us and say, what does it do this for? I can only imagine the emotions that must go through your head when you find out something like that. Yeah, it's terrible. Believe me, it's terrible. Especially when you think you're dealing with something else. You're dealing with a kid who was honest and reliable and smart and good.

1:12:45Absolutely, child. I was angry, very angry at him. How could you do this? You know, that type of thing. She took eight months to come see me. Eight months. Yeah. And then she finally came and she didn't want to let me go. You know, that was tough. She had, she went to church every day. 12 years.

1:13:33She's eight four.

1:13:46That's tough.

1:13:56Okay. Why why do you think that moved him so much? I don't think he ever really sits back and thinks about the other people. You know, the other people in his life has brought that it's mother. His family. It's all about him. It wasn't about anybody else around him. How does that make you feel when you see him? It made me feel glad that he felt sorry. Because he never really sensed this in front of us. But it made me feel glad that he remembered that I went to church and prayed for him. He had good parents. Believe me. And I don't know why this happened to him. He was a skinny little kid on the corner with the police uniform on.

1:14:47And the authority, I guess, went to his head. You know, she's always the, uh, Bob was always the the weather, Vain, what's right and wrong, right? Hmm. I've, what about the whole fucking life? Because she always kept me on. And I tried. Past it. You know, she's tough. She's still tough.

1:15:23That's a fucking get me. I'm sorry. I'm your cock sucker. Fucking prick. It's so interesting to see that emotion because it really tells me a lot about the relationship you have with this woman. I don't even know this woman, but I can see the relationship. We fight every fucking day.

1:15:50My father leaves the rule, but we get to say. It's like you guys are always fighting. That's what your mother does. Because she's the one who keeps you to the mat. You know, she puts you on the mat. My father's, ah, it's okay. We'll get over it. But my mother, she calls you to account. Mother holds you to account. She loves you still. She went to church for every day. Every day. I never knew that. I never knew that. I only found that. I'm only 20 years. She only told me that about her.

1:16:31What? Why does that move you so much to find that she went to church every day when you were in jail? Because my mother's not very lovey -dovey.

1:16:45I, she's not good at my father's.

1:16:52But you know, when you raised my mother was raised by none. I called and calculated. She had a lot. I mean, if you're so good to go to church every fucking day. They must really love you. I just be for itself.

1:17:14You know, I had to have some discipline raising that many children. Yeah, happy. Have discipline. And of course, you kiss them good night. You kiss them goodbye. You love them. But my showing my love was like making them breakfast. I made them breakfast. You know, so that was kind of a way to show your love. I was here for them all the time. But I was not. I was not mushy. You know. And he's right. It was hard for him to understand what I was going through because I never showed my emotions to them. The only emotions they get they would get is get up in the room and clean it up. Get up, stay as you and hang those clothes up.

1:18:07Yeah, no, so they was always that direction. What? So I was pretty tough. But that's the way I am. I think because of the way I was raised. I didn't have a happy childhood. But that's, you know, I could be a reason why I was tough. But I was tough. Maybe I was too tough. What is that range of emotions you feel about then now in the wake of all of this?

1:18:42That they persevered. They persevered when I didn't take much of their. Travelles that they were going through. I wish I could be them to my kids. When I reflect on it, I'm like, I'm not them. I can never be them. I just can't. But yeah, it's really heavy for me to it. Like that. I don't think anybody asked me that question before because that's really. I mean, I'm 64 years old. My parents are 80s. You know, days on this earth are not been for all of us. And we don't know when the next one's going to come or not. And with them, I call them almost every day just to see, you know, hear their voice.

1:19:30Make sure. Check. Are they good? Yeah. Okay. Is that guilt associated with them in particular?

1:19:43I don't even know what guilt is anymore sometimes. I just think it's. I have. Compassion for what they've had to deal with. So if you can translate that to guilt, I guess so. But for me, it's more like they're amazing. That's amazing what they did and what they still do. Like, and maybe there's a sense of pride and maybe some shame. There's another gratitude there. I am so grateful. Like, be. That would be. That would be the best way to describe. Yeah, because I didn't have that. For my parents growing up, because I was the one. I was the star. I was going to break my family someplace. And in the end, it came back to the people that.

1:20:35I was always told not to be. Like, don't be like dad. Be somebody else. You know, my mother, she came from a broken home. Don't be like, don't be like your mother. Be like somebody else. But these are the perfect people. And all comes back to that. Really, if you think about it, without that, I'd be in. I'd be inside. Because you left. Prison after jail after 30, you know, cheers. You were 43 years old. Yeah, you left. Yeah. I was 44 actually when I stepped out the door. Yeah. So you stepped out the door of 44 years old. Yeah. And you went back home. Yes. Right. Yeah. Yeah. To their house. To their house.

1:21:16Yeah. Yeah. That's, you know, quite the story. I looked out the window. I saw my brothers, two kids. I didn't know their names. And I'm looking at these two kids. Those are my nephews. I don't even know who they are. I don't know their names. And then you see the tears flowing. That's 10 times. First shower. I took and freed them. And I didn't know if it was the water. Or my tears. That were cascading over me. That's no exaggeration. I had to rebuild the life from there. But without them. And that shower. Without that moment. I've realized the loss. See, people don't realize the loss. The losses from the time you graduated high school and finished two and a half years of college.

1:21:58You left that. And then there's an X 20 fucking something years of your life. Zero. Is a zero. You know, that's the, you come out to zero. You are zero. Like we won't measure ourselves by what we've gained over life. I don't have a car. I don't have a dollar. I don't have any clothes. I have nothing. And now 44 years old. But I had two wonderful people. You mum and your dad. Yeah. Not everybody could get that. Did you want to go back to prison? Yes. When you came out. When I first came home.

1:22:45I didn't even know how to order a hot dog. I didn't know how. I didn't know how to matriculate society. That same moment I came out of the shower and I stood there and I said, what am I going to do with my life? I got to get a job. What's it like to get a job? Forget about getting a job when you come out of prison. That's like almost impossible. Just so you know, like there's no bullshit. It's almost impossible to get a job when you come out of prison. Now you're a dirty guy. You're a cop. Who the fuck was the 130 cop? You're disparaged. The public's trust. You robbed drug dealers. You sold drugs.

1:23:14You did cocaine. Oh, did you want to hire me? You didn't know your kids when you came out. I didn't know my kids. I... How could you? I was gone for 12 and a half years. My son was six, five and a half. He went to college. My other son was 11 months. And he was going into second year of high school. By the time I went to see him, I approached your high school. So I didn't know them. So that was a tough situation to walk into. Yeah. You tried to get a job as a handyman thereafter. Eventually you go into the approach to make a documentary about your life called... Right. ...the 75 documentary. Which explains your life in more detail and everything that happened.

1:23:58And the documentary was centering on the Mollin Commission, which was a commission set up in New York. By the mayor at the time, to assess the extent of corruption in the NYPD. Correct. And before you were arrested, there were 16 complaints that had been made against you. In the years to the internal affairs bureau, you didn't provide any names at the Mollin Commission. You said at the time, if I speak before your commission, a lot of cops are going to commit suicide. Yes, that's correct. And during those hearings at that commission, you admitted to hundreds of crimes. But later, you said it's probably more like thousands.

1:24:31Right. And you could pay in the context of that. Correct. And in that commission, you admitted that both police and drug dealers were your employees. And as a result of this commission, 200 officers were arrested for drug trafficking. Correct. So that commission was a huge moment back in 1992, where things really... The commission actually took place in 93. But yes, in association to my arrest. Yes. And that was 10 years ago, roughly. Yes, so that was 2000... 15... 16. If I went back and I spoke to Mike at, let's say, 18 years old, what was the most important thing that he needed to hear that he didn't hear?

1:25:09What would you... If you could teleport back now and whisper in his ear, what would you say to him? Well, you know, maybe I would... I'm proud of you and I love you. You know? I'm proud of you and I love you.

1:25:29It's simple. Two words. Why didn't you hear that? What would that have changed? Well, because we never know that we're doing enough.

1:25:41And...

1:25:45To be full of pride can be damaging. But for others to be proud of you, like, you wonder, what did I do? That gives you a sense of pride on my behalf, let's say. Like, why would you be proud of me? Well, because I like the way you handle people. You go out of your way, you know, which is both showing love. And that's a reason for you, friends, to be proud... I'm proud of Mike. Why? Because he sacrifices us of himself for others. Like, that's sort of in my nature, I guess, to begin with. Did you feel like anyone was proud of you at that age?

1:26:24Honestly, you're getting back to my mother, okay? You're getting back to my mother's stuff. And I've always been seeking my mother's approval. For some reason, my dad was always pretty proud of me, you know? And do you think that if someone had said that to you at 18 years old but they're proud of you that they loved you? Do you think it's likely that you wouldn't have made the decisions you then went on to make? I think at the same time hearing that would do nothing for anybody. But if that's what you felt. To be felt, feel that. And to be kind of sort of reassured, I think that that could make some significant changes in any person.

1:26:56Because as I'm thinking through, I've always been seeking my mother's approval. I mean, every problem I ever fucking had with a woman, I would always, like, profess my mother's... I don't have my mother's approval somehow. It would come out. I'm disappointing my mother. And that never has had left me. I think now I'm okay. My mom and I are pretty cool. You know, when she told me she was praying for me every day, I'm like, I didn't think you liked me. You know? So, yeah. So... Does this corruption still go on in the police department? Yeah, it's massive. So it's still happening now. It's massive.

1:27:35It's just everything changes, but it's still corruption. And so when I was corrupt police officer, the corruption was at the lower level. It was a street level corruption. Today, it's all up at the top. And it's plenty of it. It's all about big budgets and money. Power. Do you think they'll always... Listen, they had the girl bent over and get taken up the ass. Excuse me. The police chief... Did what? Grabbed a loob from his location, bent the girl over the couch and fucked her in the ass. Recently? Yes. And he was paying her for it. On overtime. He was this. This was a sex worker. This was a fucking lieutenant.

1:28:20Oh, so the chief was having sex with the lieutenant? Yeah, because she needed money to pay her bills. Oh, okay. Okay. He gave her $200 ,000 in overtime pay. This is what goes on. That's the corruption that goes on today. Do you think there's still drug corruption going on with drugs and drug dealers and stuff like that? Not to the extent that it was. No, but there's always some... Here's how it's today. Corruption is today. Hit and miss. Scores. Opportunity. There's no systematic corruption today. There may be a few... There may be a few, but very few. When you say scores, you mean cops showing up at some point, finding...

1:29:01Finding something and taking it. That would be the corruption you would run in today more than anything else. In that level of corruption. But systematic corruption of the bureaucracy itself is massive. What was the most you reached... How much money you made in a day? You said it was 40 ,000. 40 ,000? The funny thing is I could have made 150 ,000 of... The edge said I should have took the money from... From that... The robby where they left the money behind you. You should have took that money. At least I know someone would have got it. Because then the cops got it. Wow. Yeah, so... I mean, listen, there's a thousand stories in that city.

1:29:43Every day was... It's like being in a movie, but you're just... You're actually part of it. Every fucking day, you know? It's just insane. Listen, I loved being a police officer. I didn't think that I would. It's the greatest job in the world if you have the support that you need. You can have a wonderful day as a police officer. You can have a horrible day. But in the end, all you really want is love. Don't we all? Mike, we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest. Not knowing who they're leaving it for. And the question that's been left for you is...

1:30:18What is the gift that the universe, life, or God has put you here to share?

1:30:27Well, if you don't mind, I'm going to say it again. And I said it on the... It's far -fright on the belly. Just... Just... Everybody needs more love. Just love. Just love each other. Listen. Just listen to your friends. Listen to your neighbors. Just listen. Patient. Love. Why? You'll find that we have more in common than we don't. Mike, thank you. It's been an absolute pleasure speaking to you. And what an incredible life you have lived. Incredible isn't a very intentional word there. Because you're right. It does sound like it's a movie, effectively. It sounds like you... Some of the stories that you've told and the things you've been through...

1:31:16...are unthinkable. But in the context of the human side of everything you've shared, it also makes sense. You know, we go through experiences in our lives. And we can kind of take one or two routes. And that experience you went through, the love you did or didn't have, the words that went said or unsaid, can take any of us in any direction. And even me sat here today. There were moments in my early life where I remember a friend turning around to me and saying to me one day, he said, you're either going to be a millionaire or a criminal. He's one of my best friends. He was my friend, Joe. I remember exactly where I stood when he said it, because I knew it was the truth.

1:31:53Yes. Like, I knew it was the truth. I knew that effectively I was so desperate to be successful. That desperation would take me to great lengths. And those great lengths, especially when you're a young man and you don't understand consequence in the same way, those great lengths can trip you over any kind of moral background. Fortunately, I was really scared. So I was like scared of... That's a lesson. Yeah, I was. And there was early parts of my career where I was offered opportunities to go in a certain direction, especially when I dropped out of university. And they explained to me, you know, the situation.

1:32:27And I was too scared to take them up on the offer. And actually the path of least resistance for me was going into business, involving businesses, and doing those kinds of things. But it all stemmed from an underlying probably insecurity, but also fear, yeah. And just like desperately wanting to live a better life. And kind of like what you said about your parents, desperately wanting to be more, you know. If you think about business and entrepreneurship as well, it is like self -punishment. So it's like a huge risk, huge punishment, great uncertainty. So to do such a thing, to like, to start a company to take that big of a risk, there's going to have to be a pretty strong macro tailwind driving force that's making you do that.

1:33:07And a lot of the time having said, here is CEOs and founders and people that have achieved great success. It's much of what you've described. It's maybe a parent that didn't love me enough. It's maybe living in your father's footsteps. It's maybe being bullied in school. It's maybe being told you aren't good enough in some way. And that's the escape velocity that propels us into a better or worse life. Yes, yeah. Thank you so much, Mike. I really, really appreciate it. What a journey. We launched these conversation cards and they sold out. And we launched the McGinn and they sold out again. We launched the McGinn and they sold out again.

1:33:35Because people love playing these with colleagues at work, with friends at home, and also with family. And we've also got a big audience that use them as journal prompts. Every single time a guest comes on the diar of a CEO, they leave a question for the next guest in the diary. And I've sat here with some of the most incredible people in the world. And they've left all of these questions in the diary. And I've ranked them from one to three in terms of the depth. One being a starter question. And level three, if you look on the back here, this is a level three, becomes a much deeper question that builds even more connection.

1:34:08If you turn the cards over and you scan that QR code, you can see who answered the card and watch the video of them answering it in real time. So if you would like to get your hands on some of these conversation cards, go to the diary .com or look at the link in the description below.

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