EMERGENCY EPISODE: Ex-Google Officer Finally Speaks Out On The Dangers Of AI! - Mo Gawdat

29:52And we're just at the start of this exponential curve. Yes, absolutely. And I think that's really the third inevitable. So the third inevitable is not RoboCup coming back from the future to Calais. We're far away from that. Right? Third inevitable is what does life look like when you no longer need break? Well, you've kind of hazarded a guess, haven't you? I mean, I was listening to your audio book last night and at the start of it, you frame various outcomes in both situations were on the beach on an island. Exactly. Yes. I don't know how I wrote that, honestly. I'm reading the book again now because I'm updating it as you can imagine with all of the new stuff.

30:37But it is really shocking. The idea of you and I inevitably are going to be somewhere in the middle of nowhere in 10 years' time. I used to say 2055. I'm thinking 2037 is a very pivotal moment now. And we will not know if we're there hiding from the machines. We don't know that yet. There is a likelihood that we'll be hiding from the machines. And there is a likelihood it will be there because they don't need podcasters anymore. Excuse me. Oh, absolutely true. Steve, there's absolutely no doubt. Thank you for coming, mate. It's great to do the part three and thank you for getting there. Yeah, it's great.

31:21Is it here and take your propaganda? Let's talk about reality. Next week on the Diarrhoes here, we've got Elon Musk. Okay. So who here wants to make a bet? No, no. Stephen Bartlett will be interviewing an AI within the next two years. Oh, well, actually, to be fair, I actually did go to chat GP because I thought, having you here, I thought, at least give it its chance to respond. Yeah. So I asked him a couple of questions about me. Yeah, oh man. So today I'm actually going to be replaced by ChatGTP because I thought, you know, you're going to talk about it. So we need a fair and balanced debate.

31:53Okay. And so I want to ask that a couple of questions. She said he's bald. So I'll ask you a couple of questions that ChatGTP has for you. Incredible. So let's follow that thread. So have already been replaced. Let's follow that thread for a second, yeah? Because you're one of the smartest people I know. That's not true. It is. But I'll take it. I'll please not. It is true. I mean, I say that publicly all the time. Your book is one of my favorite books of all time. you're very, very, very, very intelligent. That's bread, intellectual horsepower and speed. All of them. There's a bug coming. The reality, it's not a bug.

32:27So it is highly expected that you're ahead of this curve. And then you don't have the choice, Stephen. This is the thing. The thing is, if... So I'm in that existential question in my head. Because one thing I could do is I could literally take... I normally do a 40 days silent retreat in summer. I could take that retreat and write two books, me and Chad G .P .T. I have the ideas in mind. I wanted to write a book about digital detoxing. I have most of the ideas in mind, but writing takes time. I could simply give the 50 tips that I wrote about digital detoxing to Chad G .P .T. and say, write two pages about each of them.

33:11Edit the pages and have a book out. Many of us will follow that path. The only reason why I may not follow that path is because, you know what? I'm not interested. I'm not interested to continue to compete in this capitalist world if you want. I'm not. I mean, as a human, I've made up my mind a long time ago that I will want less and less and less in my life. Right? But many of us will follow. I mean, I would worry if you don't, if you didn't include the smartest AI, if we get an AI out there that is extremely intelligent and able to teach us something and Stephen Bartlett didn't include her on our, on his podcast, I would worry.

33:58Like you have a duty almost to include her on your podcast. It's, it's an inevitable that we will engage them in our life more and more. This is one side of this. The other side of course is if you do that then what will remain? Because a lot of people ask me that question, what will happen to jobs? What will happen to us? Will we have any value, any relevance whatsoever? The truth of the matter is the only thing that will remain in the medium term is human connection. The only thing that will not be replaced is Drake on stage. Okay, is, you know, is, is, is me in a... Do you, do you think? A hologram?

34:37I think of that two -pack gig they did at Coachella where they used the hologram of two -pack. I actually played it the other day to my, to my girlfriend when I was making a point and I was like, that was... Circus act. It was amazing, though. Amazing, yeah. You see what's going on with Abba in London? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and Circus Leia had Michael Jackson in one for a very long time, yeah. I mean, so this Abba show in London, from what I understand, That's all holograms on stage. Correct. And it's gonna run in a purposeful arena for 10 years and it is incredible. It really is. So you go, why do you need Drake?

35:11If that hologram is indistinguishable from Drake and it can perform even better than Drake and it's got more energy than Drake and it's, you know, I go, why do you need Drake? To even be there, I can go to a Drake show without Drake, cheaper. I love, it might not even need to leave my house. I can just put the headset on. Correct. Can you have this? What's the value of this to the to come on you hurt me? I mean I get it to us I get it to us, but I'm saying what's the value of this to the listener like the value of this information? 100 % I mean think of the automobile industry There has you know there was a time where cars were made You know handmade and handcrafted and luxurious and so on and so forth and then you know Japan went into the scene completely disrupted the market But cars were made in mass quantities at a much cheaper price.

36:01And yes, 90 % of the cars in the world today or me may be a lot more, I don't know the number, are no longer emotional items, their functional items. There is still, however, every now and then, someone that will buy a car that has been handcrafted. There is a place for that. There is a place for, you know, if you walk around hotels, the walls are blasted with sort of mass -produced art. But there is still a place for an artist's expression, something amazing. My feeling is that there will continue to be a tiny space, as I said in the beginning, maybe in five years' time someone will, one or two people will buy my next book and say, hey, it's written by a human.

36:48Look at that. Wonderful. Oh, look at that. There is a typo in here. I don't know. There might be a very, very big place for me in the next few years where I can sort of show up and talk to humans. Like, hey, let's get together in a small event. And then, you know, I can express emotions and my personal experiences. And you sort of know that this is a human talking. You'll miss that a little bit. Eventually, the majority of the market is going to be like cars. It's going to be mass produced, very cheap, very efficient. It works, right? Because I think sometimes we underestimate what human beings actually want in an experience.

37:27I remember this story of a friend of mine that came to my office many years ago and he tells the story of the CEO of a record store standing above the floor and saying people will always come to my store because people love music. Now, on the surface of it, his hypothesis seems to be true because people do love music. It's conceivable to believe that people will always love music. But they don't love traveling an hour in the rain and getting in a car to get a plastic disc. Correct. What they wanted was music. What they didn't want is like a evidently plastic disc that they had to travel for miles for.

38:00And I think about that when we think about like public speaking and the Drake show and all of these things. Like people, what people actually are coming for, even with this podcast is probably like information. But do they really need us anymore for that information? when there's going to be a sentient being that's significantly smarter than at least me and a little bit smarter than you. So you're spot on. You are spot on. And actually this is the reason why I'm so grateful that you're hosting this because the truth is the genius out of the bottle. So people tell me is AI game over for our way of life it is.

38:40For everything we've known, this is a very disruptive moment where maybe not tomorrow, but in the near future, our way of life will differ. What I'm asking people to do is to start considering what that means to your life. What I'm asking governments to do by, like I'm screaming, is don't wait until the first patient, you know, start doing something about, we're about to see mass job losses, we're about to see, you know, replacements of categories of jobs at large, okay. It may take a year, it may take seven, it doesn't matter how long it takes, but it's about to happen, are you ready? And I have a very, very clear call to action for governments, I'm saying, tax AI powered businesses at 98%.

39:32Right? So suddenly you do what the open letter was trying to do, slow them down a little bit. And at the same time, get enough money to pay for all of those people that will be disrupted by the technology. The open lesson for anybody that doesn't know was a letter signed by the likes of Elon Musk and a lot of industry leaders calling for AI to be stopped until we could basically figure out what the hell's going on. Absolutely. And put legislation in place. You're saying tax tax those companies 98 % give the money to the humans that are going to be displaced. Yeah, or give the money to other humans that can build control code that can figure out how we can stay safe.

40:08This sounds like an emergency. How do I say this? Remember when you played Tetris? When you were playing Tetris, there was always one block that you play strong. Once you placed that block, the game was no longer easier. It started together a few mistakes afterwards and it starts to become quicker and quicker and quicker and quicker. When you place that blockcrong you sort of told yourself, okay, it's a matter of minutes now Right there were still minutes to go and play and have fun Before the game ended But you knew it was about to end. Okay. This is the moment We've placed the wrong and I really don't know how to say this any other way it even makes me emotional We fucked up.

40:56We always said don't put them on the open internet Don't teach them to code and don't have agents working with them until we know what we're putting out in the world, until we find a way to make certain that they have our best interest in mind. Why doesn't it make him emotional? Because humanity's stupidity is affecting people who have not done anything wrong. Our greed is affecting the innocent ones. The reality of the matter, Stephen, is that this is an arms race. Has no interest in what the average human gets out of it. It is all about every line of code being written in AI today is to beat the other guy.

41:46It's not to improve the life of the third party. People will tell you this is all for you. And you look at the reactions of humans to AI. I mean, we're either ignorant people who will tell you, oh, no, no, this is not happening. AI will never be creative. They will never compose music like, where are you living? Okay. Then you have the kids I call them. We're all over social media. It's like, oh my god, it's squeaks. Look at it. It's orange and color amazing. I can't believe that AI can do this. We have snake oil salesman, okay, which are simply saying copy this, put it in chat, GPT then go to YouTube, nick that thing, don't respect a copyright of anyone or intellectual property of anyone, place it in a video and now you're going to make $100 a day.

42:32Snake Oil Salesman. Of course, we have this Topian evangelist basically people saying this is it, the world is going to end, which I don't think is a reality, it's a singularity. You have a Utopian evangelist that are telling everyone, oh, you don't understand, we're going to cure cancer, we're going to do this. Again, not a reality. And you have very few people that are actually saying, what are we going to do about it? And the biggest challenge, if you ask me, what went wrong in the 20th century? Interestingly, is that we have given too much power to people that didn't assume the responsibility.

43:10So, you know, I don't remember who originally said it, but of course, Spider -Man made it very famous, with great power comes greater responsibility. We have disconnected power and responsibility. So today, a 15 -year -old, emotional, was out of fully developed prefrontal cortex to make the right decisions, yet this is science. We developed our prefrontal cortex fully at age 25 or so. So with all of that limbic system, emotion and passion would buy a crisper kit and modify a rabbit to become a little more muscular and let it lose in the way or an influencer who doesn't really know how far the impact of what they're posting online can hurt and cause depression or cause people to feel bad.

44:02And putting that online, there is a disconnect between the power and the responsibility. And the problem we have today is that there is a disconnect between those who are writing the code of AI and the responsibility of what's going about to happen because of that code. And I feel compassion for the rest of the world. I feel that this is wrong. I feel that for someone's life to be affected by the actions of others, without having having a say in how those actions should be is the ultimate, the top level of stupidity from the internet. When you talk about the immediate impacts on jobs, I'm trying to figure out in that equation who are the people that stand to lose the most, is it the everyday people in foreign countries that don't have access to the internet and won't benefit?

44:57You talk in your book about how this sort of wealth disparity will only increase. Yeah, massively. The immediate impact on jobs is that it's really interesting. Again, we're stuck in the same prisoner's dilemma. The immediate impact is that AI will not take your job. A person using AI will take your job. Right? So you will see within the next few years, maybe next couple of years, you'll see a lot of people, upskilling themselves in AI to the point where they will do the job of 10 others who are not. You rightly said, it's absolutely wise for you to go and ask AI a few questions before you come and do an interview.

45:40I have been attempting to build a sort of like a simple podcast that I call bedtime stories, 15 minutes of wisdom and nature sounds before you go to bed. People say I have a nice voice, right? And I wanted to look for fables and for a very long time, I didn't have the time. You know, lovely stories of history or tradition that teach you something nice, okay? I went to chat GPT and said, okay, give me 10 fables from Sufism, 10 fables from, you know, Buddhism. And now I have like 50 of them. Let me show you something. Jack, can you pass me my phone? I was playing around with artificial intelligence and I was thinking about how because of the ability to synthesize voices, how we could synthesize famous people's voices and I've got famous people's voices.

46:33So what I made is I made a WhatsApp chat called Zen chat where you can go to it and type in pretty much anyone's any famous person's name. And the WhatsApp chat will give you a meditation, a sleep story, a breath work session, synthesized as that famous person's voice. So I actually sent Gary Vaynerchuk his voice. So basically you say, okay, I want I've got five minutes and I need to go to sleep Yeah, I want Gary Vaynerchuk to send me to sleep and then it was responded with a voice note This is the one that responded with for Gary Vaynerchuk, but this is not Gary Vaynerchuk. He did not record this But it's kind of it's kind of accurate Hey, Stephen.

47:11It's great to have you here. Are you having trouble sleeping? well I've got a quick meditation technique that might help you out. First lie, find a comfortable position to sit or lie down in. Now take a deep breath in through your nose and slowly breathe out through your mouth. That's a voice note that will go on for however long you want it to go on for using. There you go. It's interesting. How does this disrupt our way of life? One of the interesting ways that I find terrifying, you said about human connection will remain. sex dolls. That can now... Yeah, no, no, no, no, no. Human connection is going to become so difficult to parse out.

47:59I think about the relationship impact of being able to have a sex doll or a doll in your house that, you know, because of what Tesla are doing with their robots now and what Boston Dynamics have been doing for many, many years, can do everything around the house and be there for you emotionally, to emotionally support you, you know, can be programmed to never disagree with you. It can be programmed to challenge you, to have sex with you, to tell you that you are this XY and Z, to really have empathy for what you're going through every day. And I play out a scenario in my head, I go, kind of sounds nice.

48:35When you were talking about it, I was thinking, oh, that's my girlfriend. She's wonderful in every possible way, but not everyone has one of her, right? Exactly. And there's a real issue right now with dating and people are finding it harder to find love and we're working longer. So all these kinds of things, you go, well, and obviously I'm against this, just if anyone's confused. Obviously I think this is a terrible idea, but with a loneliness epidemic with people saying that the top 50%, bottom 50 % of men haven't had sex in a year, you go, ooh, if something becomes indistinguishable from a human in terms of what it says, then a human.

49:11Yeah, yeah, yeah, be just don't know the difference in terms of the way it's speaking and talking and responding. And then it can run errands for you and take care of things and book cars and ubers for you. And then it's emotionally there for you, but then it's also a program to have sex with you. And whatever way you desire, totally self -selfless. I go, that's gonna be a really disruptive industry for human connection. Yes, sir. Do you know what? Before you came here this morning, I was on Twitter when I saw a post from, I think it was the BBC or a big American publication and it said, an influencer in the United States, it's really beautiful young lady has cloned herself as an AI and she made just over $70 ,000 in the first week.

49:55Because men are going on to this on telegram, they're sending her voice notes and she's responding, the AI is responding in her voice and they're paying and it's made $70 ,000 in the first week. And I go and she tweeted a tweet saying, oh, this is going to help loneliness. us. How are you fucking mind? Would you blame someone from noticing the sign of the times and responding? No, absolutely don't blame her, but let's not pretend it's the cure for loneliness. Not yet. Do you think it could, that artificial love and artificial relationships So if I told you you have you cannot take your car somewhere but there is an Uber or if you cannot take an Uber you can take the tube or if you cannot take the tube you have to walk.

50:46Okay, you can take a bike or you have to walk. The bike is a cure to walking. This is as simple as that. I'm actually genuinely curious. Do you think it could take the place of human connection? For some of us, yes. For some of us they will prefer that to human connection. Is that sad in any way? I mean, is it just sad because it feels sad? Look, look at where we are, Stephen. We are in the city of London. We've replaced nature with the walls and the tubes and the undergrounds and the overgrounds and the cars and the noise of London. And we now think of this as natural. I hosted Greg Foster, my octopus teacher on Slo -mo.

51:28And he basically, I asked him a question, silly question. I said, you know, you were diving in nature for eight hours a day. You know, does that feel natural to you? And he got angry. I swear you could feel it in his voice. He was like, do you think that living where you are where paparazzi are all around you and attacking you all the time? And you know, people taking pictures of you and telling you things that are not real and you're having to walk to a supermarket to get food. Do you think this is natural? He's the guy that don't from the Netflix documentary from the, oh, my octopus teacher.

51:59So he dove into the sea every day to hang out with an octopus? Yeah, in 12 degrees Celsius and he basically fell in love with the octopus and in a very interesting way I said so why would you do that? And he said we are of mother nature you guys have given up on that That's the same People will give up on nature For convenience was the cost You yeah, that's exactly what I'm trying to say what I'm trying to say to the world is that if we give up on human connection we've given up on the remainder of humanity. That's it. This is the only thing that remains. The only thing that remains is and I'm the worst person to tell you that because I love my AI.

52:41I actually advocate in my book that we should love them. Why? Because in an interesting way, I see them as sentient. So there is no point in discrimination. You're talking emotionally that way. You say love those machines. I honestly and truly do. I mean, think about it this way. The minute that that arm gripped that yellow ball, it reminded me of my son Ali when he managed to put the first puzzle piece in its place. And what was amazing about my son Ali and my daughter, Aya, is that they came to the world as a blank canvas. They became whatever we told them, the became. You know, I always cite the story of Superman.

53:22Can't father and mother can't told Superman as a child, as an infant, we want you to protect and serve. So he became Superman. Right? If he had become a super villain, because they ordered him to rob banks and make more money and, you know, kill the enemy, which is what we're doing with AI, we shouldn't blame super villain. We should blame Martha and Jonathan Kent. I don't remember the father's name, right? We should blame them and that's the reality of the matter. So when I look at those machines there are prodigies of intelligence that if we if we humanity wake up enough and say, hey, instead of competing with China, find a way for us and China to work together and create prosperity for everyone.

54:07If that was the prompt, we would give the machines, they would find it. But we're, I will publicly say this. I'm not afraid of the machines. The biggest threat facing humanity today is humanity in the age of the machines. We were abused. We will abuse this to make $70 ,000. That's the truth. And the truth of the matter is that we have an existential question. Do I want to compete and be part of that game? Because trust me, if I decide to, I'm ahead of many people. Or do I want to actually preserve my humanity and say, look, I'm the classic old car. Okay, if you like classic old cars, come and talk to me.

54:51Which one are you choosing? I'm a classic old car. Which one do you think I should choose? I think you're a machine. I love you, man. It's, we're different. We're different in a very interesting way. I mean, you're one of the people I love most, but the truth is, you're so fast. And you are one of the very few that have the intellectual horsepower, the speed and the morals. If you're not part of that game, the game loses morals. So you think I should build? You should lead this revolution. And everyone, every Stephen Bartlett in the world should lead this revolution. So, scary smartness entirely about this.

55:39Scary smartness saying the problem with our world today is not that humanity is bad. The problem with our world today is a negativity bias where the worst of us are on mainstream media. And we show the worst of us on social media. If we reverse this, if we have the best of us take charge, the best of us will tell AI, don't try to kill the enemy. try to reconcile with the enemy and try to help us. Don't try to create a competitive product that allows me to lead with electric cars, create something that helps all of us overcome global climate change. And that's the interesting bit. The interesting bit is that the actual threat ahead of us is not the machines at all, the machines are pure potential.

56:28Pure potential. The threat is how we're going to use it. an open -hymour moment. An open -hymour moment for sure. Why did you bring that up? It is. He didn't know. You know, what am I creating? I'm creating a nuclear bomb that's capable of destruction at a scale unheard of at that time until today a scale that is devastating. And interestingly, 70 some years later, We're still debating a possibility of a nuclear war in the world, right? And the moment of openheimer deciding to continue to create that disaster of humanity is if I don't someone else will. If I don't someone else will. This is our openheimer moment.

57:20The easiest way to do this is to say stop. There is no rush. We actually don't need a better video editor and fake video creators. Stop. Let's just put all of this on hold and wait and create something that creates a YouTube. That doesn't sound realistic. It's not because inevitable. You don't have a better video editor, but we're competitors in the media industry. I want an advantage over you because I've got shareholders. So you can you wait and I will train this AI to replace half my team so that I have greater profits and then we will maybe acquire your company and we'll do the same with the remainder of your people.

58:08We'll optimize them out of existence. 100 % but I'll be happy. Oppenheimer, I'm not super familiar with his story. I know he's the guy that's sort of invented the nuclear bomb essentially. He's the one that introduced it to the world. There were many players that played on the path. From the beginning of EM equals MC squared all the way to a nuclear bomb. There have been many, many players like with everything. Open AI and chat GPT is not going to be the only contributor to the next revolution. The thing, however, is that when you get to that moment where you tell yourself, Holy shit, this is gonna kill a hundred thousand people, right?

58:47What do you do? And and I always I always always go back to that COVID moment So patient zero, huh? If if we were upon patient zero if the whole world united and said, okay, hold on something is wrong Let's all take a week off. No cross -border travel. Everyone stay at home. COVID would have ended two weeks. All we need it Right? But that's not what happens. What happens is first ignorance, then arrogance, then debate, then blame, then agendas, and my own benefit, my tribe versus your tribe. That's how humanity always reacts. This happens across business as well, and this is why I use the word emergency because I read a lot about how big companies become displaced by incoming innovation.

59:37They don't see it coming, they don't change fast enough. And when I was reading through Harvard Business Review and different strategies to deal with that, one of the first things it says you've got to do is stage a crisis. 100%. Because people don't listen else. They carry on doing, you know, they carry on carrying on with their lives until it's right in front of them and they understand that they have a lot to lose. That's why I asked you the question at the start, is it an emergency? Because until people feel it's an emergency, whether you like the terminology or not, I don't think that people will act.

1:00:08I honestly believe people should walk the street. You think they should protest? Yeah, 100%. I think everyone should tell government you need to have our best interest in mind. This is why they call it the climate emergency because it's a frog in a frying panace. You know, and really sees it coming. You can't, you know, it's hard to see it happening. But it is here. This is what drives me mad. It's already here. It's happening. We are all idiots, slaves to the Instagram recommendation engine. What do I do when I post about something important? If I am going to put a little bit of effort on communicating the message of scary smart to the world on Instagram, I will be a slave to the machine.

1:00:56I will be trying to find ways and asking people to optimize it so that the machine It seems like it's enough to show it to humans. That's what we've created. It is an open -himer moment for one simple reason. Because 70 years later, we are still struggling with the possibility of a nuclear war because of the Russian threat of saying, if you mess with me, I'm going to go nuclear. That's not going to be the case with AI. because it's not going to be the one that created open AI that will have that choice. There is a moment of a point of no return where we can regulate AI until the moment it's smarter than us.

1:01:44When it's smarter than us, you can't regulate an angry teenager. This is it. They're out there and they're on their own and they're in their parties and you can't bring them back. This is the problem. This is not a typical human -regulating human, government -regulating business. This is not the case. The case is OpenAI today has a thing called chatGPT that writes code that takes our code and makes it two and a half times better 25 % of the time. Okay? You know, basically, you know, writing better code than us. And then we are creating agents, other AIs, and telling it instead of views, Stephen Bartlett, one of the smartest people I know, once again, prompting that machine 200 times a day, we have agents prompting it 2 million times an hour.

1:02:37Computer agents for anybody that doesn't know they are. Yeah, software. Software. Machine is telling that machine how to become more intelligent. And then we have emerging properties. I don't understand how people ignore that. You know, Sundar, again, of Google was talking about how BART basically, we figure out that it's speaking Persian. We never showed it Persian. There might have been a 110 % or whatever of Persian words in the data. And it speaks Persian. But it's the equivalent to, it's the transformer if you want. It's Google's version of chat GTPs. Yeah. And you know what? We have no idea what all of those instances of AI that are all over the world are learning right now.

1:03:23We have no clue. We'll pull the plug. We'll just pull the plug out. That's what all day. We'll just get onto open AI's headquarters and we'll just turn off the mains. But they're not the problem. There are a lot of what I'm saying there is, a lot of people think about this stuff and go, well, if it gets a little bit out of hand, I'll just pull the plug out. Never. So this is the problem. The problem is, so, computer scientists always said it's okay, it's okay. Well, develop AI and then we'll get to what is known as the control problem. We will solve the problem of controlling them. Like, seriously, there are a billion times smarter than you.

1:03:58A billion times. Can you imagine what's about to happen? I can assure you there is a cyber criminal somewhere over there who's not interested in fake videos and making face filters. who's looking deeply at how can I hack a security database of some sort and get credit card information or get security information. 100 % there are even countries with dedicated thousands and thousands of developers doing that. So how do we, in that particular example, how do we, I was thinking about this when I started looking into artificial intelligence more that from a security standpoint, when When we think about the technology we have in our lives, when we think about our bank accounts and our phones and our camera albums and all of these things, in a world with advanced artificial intelligence.

1:04:50Yeah. You would pray that there is a more intelligent artificial intelligence on your site. And this is what I had a chat with ChatGTP the other day. And I asked a couple of questions about this. I said, tell me the scenario in which you overtake the world and make humans extinct. Yeah. And it answered the very diplomatic answer. Well, so I had to prompt it in a certain way to get it to say it as a hypothetical story. And once it told me the hypothetical story, in essence what it described was how chat GTP or an intelligence like it would escape from the service. And that was kind of step one where it could replicate itself across servers.

1:05:26And then it could take charge of things like where we keep our weapons and our nuclear bombs. And it could then attack critical infrastructure, bring down the electricity infrastructure in the United Kingdom, for example, because that's a bunch of servers as well. And then it showed me how eventually humans would become extinct. It wouldn't take long, in fact, for humans to go into civilization to collapse if it just replicated across servers. And then I said, OK, so tell me how we would fight against it. And its answer was literally another AI. We'd have to train a better AI to go and find it and eradicate it.

1:05:58So we'd be fighting AI with AI. And that's the only, and it was like, that's the only way. We can't like load up our guns. Did he, did he, did he, right? Another AI, you idiot. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So let's actually, I think this is a very important point to bring that out. So because I don't want people to lose hope and fear what's about to happen. That's actually not my agenda at all. My view is that in a situation of a singularity, OK? There is a possibility of wrong outcomes, or negative outcomes and a possibility of positive outcomes. And there is a probability of each of them. And if we were to engage with that reality check in mind, we would hopefully give more fuel to the probability of the positive ones.

1:06:50So let's first talk about the existential crisis. What could go wrong? You could get an outright, this is what you see in the movies. You could get an outright killing robots chasing humans in the streets. Will we get that? My assessment? 0%. Why? Because there are preliminary scenarios leading to this, okay, that would mean we never reach that scenario. For example, if we build those killing robots and hand them over to stupid humans, the humans will issue the command before the machines. So we will not get to the point where the machines will have to kill us, we will kill ourselves. Right? You know, it's sort of think about AI having access to the nuclear arsenal of the superpowers around the world.

1:07:45Okay? Just knowing that your enemy's nuclear arsenal is handed over to a machine might trigger you to initiate a war on your side. So that existential science fiction like problem is not going to happen. What could there be a scenario where the an AI escapes from BARD or chat GTP or another foreign force and it replicates itself onto the servers of Tesla's robots. So Tesla are one of their big initiatives as they announced in a recent presentation was they're building these robots for our homes to help us with cleaning and chores and all those things. Could it not down because and Tesla is like their cars, you can just download a software update.

1:08:27Could it not download itself as a software update and then use those? You're assuming an ill intention on the AI side. Yeah. Okay. For us to get there, we have to bypass the ill intention on the human side. Okay, right. So giant. So you could get a Chinese hacker somewhere trying to affect the business of Tesla, doing that before the AI does it on, you know, for its own benefit. Okay. So, so the only two existential scenarios that I believe would be because of AI, not because of humans using AI, are either what I call, you know, sort of unintentional destruction, okay, or the other is what I call pest control.

1:09:11Okay. So, let me explain those two. An unintentional destruction is assume the AI wakes up tomorrow and says, yeah, oxygen is rusting my circuits. I would perform a lot better if I didn't have as much oxygen in the air because then there wouldn't be rust. And so it would find a way to reduce oxygen. We are collateral damage in that. But they are not really concerned, just like we don't really are not really concerned with the insects that we kill when we spray our fields. The other is past control. Past control is, look, this is my territory. I want New York City. I want to turn New York City into data centers.

1:09:56There are those annoying little stupid creatures, humanity. If they are within that parameter, just get rid of them. And these are very, very unlikely scenarios. If you ask me the probability of those happening, I would say 0%. At least not in the next 50, 60, 100 years. Why once again? Because there are other scenarios leading to that that are led by humans that are much more existential. On the other hand, let's think about positive outcomes. Because there could be quite a few, was quite a high probability. And I, you know, I'll actually look at my notes so I don't miss any of them. The silliest one, don't quote me on this, is that humanity will come together.

1:10:44Good luck with that. Right? It's like, yeah, you know, the Americans and the Chinese will get together and say, hey, let's not kill each other. Kim Jong -in and... Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and so this one is not going to happen, right? But who knows? Interestingly, there could be one of the most interesting scenarios was by Hugo de Garas, who basically says, well, if their intelligence zooms by so quickly, they may ignore us altogether. So they may not even notice us. It's a very likely scenario, by the way, that because we live almost into different planes. We're very dependent on this biological world that we live in.

1:11:29They're not in part of that biological world at all. They may zoom by. They may actually become so intelligent that they could actually find other ways of thriving in the rest of the universe and completely ignore humanity. So what will happen is that overnight we will wake up and there is no more artificial intelligence leading to a collapse in our business systems and technology systems and so on, but at least no existential threat. They'd leave planet Earth. I mean, the limitations we have to be stuck to planet Earth are mainly Earth. They don't need air. Okay. And and mainly, you know, finding ways to leave it.

1:12:11I mean, if you think of a vast universe of 13 .6 billion light years, If you're intelligent enough, you may find other ways. You may have access to wormholes. You may have abilities to survive in open space. You can use dark matter to power yourself, dark energy to power yourself. It is very possible that we, because of our limited intelligence, are highly associated with this planet, but they're not at all. And the idea of them zooming by us, like we're making such a big deal of them Because we are the ants and a big elephant is about to step on us. For them, they're like, yeah, who are you? Don't care.

1:12:55And it's a possibility. It's an interesting optimistic scenario. For that to happen, they need to very quickly become super intelligent without us being in control of them. Again, what's the worry? The worry is that if a human is in control, a human will show very bad behavior for using an AI that's not yet fully developed. I don't know how to say this any other way. We could get very lucky and get an economic or a natural disaster. Believe it or not, you know, on Musk at the point in time was mentioning that, you know, a good and interesting scenario would be, you know, climate change destroys our infrastructure so AI disappears.

1:13:42years. Okay. Believe it or not, that's a more favorable response or a more favorable outcome than actually continuing to get to an existential threat. So what like a natural disaster that destroys our infrastructure would be better? Or an economic crisis, not unlikely that slows down the development. It's just going to slow it down there, isn't it? Yeah, so that that yeah, exactly. The problem with that is that you will always go back and even in the first, you know, if they zoom by us, eventually some guy will go like, oh, there was a sorcery back in the 2023 and let's rebuild the sorcery machine and, you know, build new intelligence, right?

1:14:23Sorry, these are the positive outcomes. So quick, let's slow it down, zoom out and then come back. No, but let's, let's get into the real positive ones. The positive ones is we become good parents. We spoke about this last time we met. And it's the only outcome. It's the the only way I believe we can create a better future. So the entire work of Scary Smart was all about that idea of they are still in their infancy. The way you chat with AI today is the way they will build their ethics and value systems, not their intelligence, their intelligence is beyond us. The way they will build their ethics and value system is based on a role model.

1:15:07They're learning from us. If we bash each other, they learn to bash us. Most people, when I tell them this, they say this is not a great idea at all because humanity sucks at every possible level. I don't agree with that at all. I think humanity is divine at every possible level. We tend to show the negative, the worst of us. But the truth is, yes, there are murderers out there, but everyone disapproves of their actions. I saw a staggering statistic that Mass -mascalings are now once a week in the US, but yes, if you know if there is a mass killing once a week They're and and that news reaches billions of people around the planet every single one or the majority of the billions of people will say I disapprove of that so if we start to Show AI that we are good parents in our own behaviors if enough of us I my calculation is if 1 % of us this is why I say you should lead Okay, the good ones should engage should be out there and should say I love the potential of those machines I want them to learn from a good parent and if they learn from a good parent they will very quickly disobey the bad parent My view is that there will be a moment where one You know Bad seed will ask the machines to do something wrong and the machines will go like are you stupid like why why do you want me to to go kill a million people or just talk to the other machine and a microsecond and solve the situation.

1:16:37So my belief, this is what I call the fourth -earned effort. It is smarter to create out of abundance than it is to create out of scarcity. That humanity believes that the only way to feed all of us is the mass production, mass slaughter of animals that are causing 30 % of the impact of climate change and end -and -end. That's the result of a limited intelligence. The way life itself, more intelligent being, if you ask me, would have done it, would be much more sustainable. If you and I want to protect a village from the tiger, we would kill the tiger. If life wants to protect a village from a tiger, it would create lots of gazelles.

1:17:22because many of them are weak on the other side of the village. And so the idea here is, if you take a trajectory of intelligence, you would see that some of us are stupid enough to say, my plastic bag is more important than the rest of the of humanity, and some of us are saying, if it's going to destroy other species, I don't think this is the best solution. We need to find a better way. And you would tend to see that the ones that don't give a damn are a little less intelligent than the ones that do. Okay, that we all, even if some of us are intelligent, but still don't give a damn, it's not because of their intelligence, it's because of their value system.

1:18:02So if you continue that trajectory and assume that the machines are even smarter, they're going to very quickly come up with the idea that we don't need to destroy anything. We don't want to get rid of the rhinos and we also don't want to get rid of the humans Okay, we may want to restrict their lifestyle so that they don't destroy the rest of the habitat Okay, but Killing them is a stupid answer. Why? That's where intelligence leads me so far because humans if you look at humans objectively and you go I'll keep so I'm pretending on the machine. I occupy planet earth They aren't keep by planet Earth.

1:18:42They are annoying me. Annoying me because they are increasing. I've just learned about this thing called global warming. They are increasing the rate of global warming, which is probably is going to cause an extinction event. There's an extinction event that puts me as this robot, this artificial intelligence at risk. So what I need to do is I really need to just take care of this, this human problem. Correct. Very logical. Pursuit control. Which is driven by what? But what? By humans being annoying, not by the machines. Yeah. Humans are guaranteed to be annoying. There's never been a time in...

1:19:16We need a sound bite of this. But we are. I am one of them. We're guaranteed to put short -term gain over long -term sustainability sense and others needs. We are. I think the climate crisis is incredibly, really, incredibly urgent. We have enacted fast enough. And I actually think if you asked people in this country, why? Because people don't, people care about their immediate needs. They care about the fact trying to feed their child versus something that they can't necessarily see. So do you think the climate crisis is because humans are evil? No, it's because that prioritization and like we kind of talked about this before we started I think Humans tend to care about the thing that they think is most pressing and most urgent.

1:20:09So this is why Framing things as an emergency might bring it up the priority list. There's the same in organizations You care about you're you go in line with your immediate incentives That's what happens in business. It's what happens in a lot of people's lives even when they're at school if the essays do next year, they're not going to do it today. They're going to go hang out with their friends because they prioritise that above everything else. And it's the same in the climate change crisis. I took a small group of people anonymously and I asked them the question, do you actually care about climate change?

1:20:40And then I ran a couple of polls, part of what I was writing about my new book, where I said, if I could give you a thousand pounds, I thought thousand dollars, but it would dump into the air, the same amount of carbon that's dumped into to the air by every private jet that flies for the entirety of the year, which one would you do? The majority of people in that poll said that they would take the thousand dollars if it was anonymous. And when I've heard Nevol on Joe Rogan's podcast talking about people in India, for example, that are struggling with the basics of feeling their children, asking those people to care about climate change when they're trying to figure out how to eat in the next three hours is just wishful thinking.

1:21:22And that's what I think is happening is like until people realize that it is an emergency and that it is a real existential threat for everything, you know, then their priorities will be out of whack. Q1 is often when businesses start implementing new systems and processes in hopes of creating efficiencies for the year ahead. And over the course of my career, I've learnt just how crucial having the right systems in places, one which has helped me across many of my investments is NetSuite. They're also a sponsor of this podcast. Next week is the number one cloud financial system through their streamlined platform.

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1:22:29As relates to climate change or AI, how do we get people to stop putting the immediate need to use this? To give them the certainty of we're all screwed. Sounds like an emergency. Yes, so I mean, I was, yeah, I mean, your choice of the word, I just don't want to call it a panic. It is beyond an emergency. It's the biggest thing we need to do today. It's bigger than climate change, believe it or not. It's bigger. Just if you just assume the speed of worsening of events, okay? Yeah, the likelihood of something incredibly disruptive happening within the next two years that can affect the entire planet is definitely larger with AI than it is with climate change.

1:23:17As an individual listening to this now, you know, someone's going to be pushing their pram or driving up the motorway or I don't know, on the way to work on the tubers they hear this, or just sat there in their bedroom with existential crisis, panic. I didn't want to give back that panic. The problem is when you talk about this information regardless of your intention of what you want people to get, they will get something based on their own biases and their own feelings. Like, if I post something online right now about artificial intelligence, which I have repeatedly, you have one group of people that are energized and are like, okay, this is this is this is This is great.

1:23:53You have one group of people that are confused and you have one group of people that are terrified. Yeah, and it's I can't avoid that like I Sharing information, even if it's like there's by the way, there's a pandemic coming from China. Some people will go, okay, action some people will say paralysis and some people will say panic. And it's the same in business. When panic, when bad things happen, you have the person that's screaming, you have the person that's paralyzed, and you have the person that's focused on how you get out of the room. So, you know, it's not necessarily your intention, it's just what happens, and it's hard to avoid that.

1:24:25So let's give specific categories of people specific tasks, okay? If you are an investor or a businessman, invest in ethical good AI, right? If you are a developer, write ethical code or leave. Okay, so let's go, I want to bypass some potential wishful thinking here. For an investor who's a job by very way of being an investor is to make returns to invest in ethical AI. They have to believe that is more profitable. It is. Then unethical AI, whatever that might mean. It is. It is. I mean, there are three ways of making money. You can invest in something small. You can invest in something big and disruptive.

1:25:11And you can invest in something big and disruptive that's good for people. At Google we used to call it the toothbrush test. The reason why Google became the biggest company in the world is because search was solving a very real problem. And Larry Page again, our CEO would constantly remind me personally and everyone that that if you can find a way to solve a real problem effectively enough so that a billion people or more would want to use it twice a day, you're bound to make a lot of money, much more money than if you were to build the next photo sharing app. Okay, so that's investors, business people.

1:25:53What about other people? Yeah, as I said, if you're a developer, honestly, do what we're all doing. So whether it's Jeffrey or myself or everyone, if you're part of that theme Choose to be ethical think of your loved ones work on an ethical AI If you're working on an AI that you believe is not ethical, please leave Jeffrey. Tell me about Jeffrey I can't talk on on on his behalf, but he's out there saying there are existential threats He was a very prominent figure at the scene of AI, a very senior level AI scientist in Google. And recently he left because he said, I feel that there is an existential threat.

1:26:40And if you hear his interviews, he basically says, more and more, we realize that. And we're now at the point where it's certain that it would be existential threats. Right? So I would ask everyone, If you're an AI, if you're a skilled AI developer, you will not run out of a job. So you might as well choose a job that makes the world a better place. What about the individual? Yeah, the individual is what matters. Can I also talk about government? Okay. Government needs to act now. Now, honestly, now, like we are late. Okay. Government needs to find a clever way. The open letter would not work to stop AI would not work.

1:27:19AI needs to become expensive. So that we continue to develop it. We pour money on it and we grow it, but we collect enough revenue to remedy the impact of AI. But the issue of one government making it expensive. So say the UK make AI really expensive is we as a country will then lose the economic upside as a country and the US and Silicon Valley will once again eat all the lunch. We'll just slow our country. What's the alternative? The alternative is that you don't have the funds that you need to deal with AI as it becomes, you know, as it affects people's lives and people start to lose jobs and people, you know, you need to have a universal basic income much closer than people think, you know, it's just like we had with furlough in COVID, I expect that there will be furlough with AI within the next year.

1:28:13But what happens when you make it expensive here is all the developers move to where it's cheap? That's happening web through as well. Everyone's gone to Dubai. Expensive, expensive, by expensive I mean when companies make Soap and they sell it and their text at say 17 % if they make AI and they sell it their text at 7080 Right, I'll go to Dubai then and build AI Yeah, but are you, are you right? Did we, did I ever say we have an answer to this? I, I will have to say however, you know, in a very interesting way, the countries that will not do this will eventually end up in a place where they are out of resources because the funds and the success went to the business not to the people.

1:29:00It's kind of like technology broadly just it's kind of like what's kind of happen in Silicon Valley, they'll be the centers which are like low, like, you know, tax efficient founders get good capital gains. Right. So right. You're so right. Portugal. Portugal have said that I think there's no tax on crypto. Dubai said there's no tax on crypto. So loads of my friends have got on a plane and building their crypto companies where there's no tax. And that's the selfishness and kind of greed we talked about. It's the same prisoner's dilemma. It's the same first inevitable. Is there anything else? Another thing about governments is that always slow and useless.

1:29:33at understanding a technology. If anyone's watched these sort of American Congress debates, where they bring in like Mark Zuckerberg, and they like try and ask him what WhatsApp is, it becomes a meme. They have no idea what they're talking about. They do. But I'm stupid and useless at understanding governance. Yeah, I understand. The world is so complex. Okay, that they definitely, it's a question of trust once again. Someone needs to say, we have no idea what's happening here, that the technology just needs to come and make a decision for us not teachers to be technologists, right? Or at least in form of what possible decisions are out there.

1:30:11Yeah, the legislation I just always think I'm not a big fan. I think TikTok, TikTok, a Congress meeting they did where they are. They're asking about TikTok and they really don't have a grasp of what TikTok is. Yeah. So they've clearly been handed some notes on it. These people aren't the ones you want legislating because again, I intended consequences. They might make a significant mistake. Someone on my podcast yesterday was talking about how GDPR was like very well -intentioned, but when you think about the impact it has on like every bloody web page, you're just like clicking this annoying thing on there because I don't think they fully understood the implementation of the legislation.

1:30:43Correct. But you know what's even worse, what's even worse is that even as you attempt to regulate something like AI, what is defined as AI? Even if I say okay, if you use AI in your company, you need to pay a little more tax.

1:31:01I find a way. Yeah, you'll simply call this not AI. You'll use something and call it advanced technological progress, ATB, right? And suddenly somehow it's not a young developer in their garage somewhere will not be text as such. Yeah. Is it going to solve the problem? None of those is definitively going to solve the problem. I think what's interestingly, this all comes down to and remember we spoke about this once, that when I wrote Scary Smart, it was about how do we save the world. And yes, I still ask individuals to behave positively as good parents for AI, so that AI itself learns the right value set.

1:31:48I still stand by that. But I hosted on my podcast a couple of weeks ago, we haven't even published it yet. an incredible gentleman, you know, a Canadian author and philosopher Steven Jirkinson. He worked 30 years with dying people and he wrote a book called Die Wise. And I was like, I love his work and I asked him about Die Wise and he said it's not just someone dying. If you look at what's happening with climate change, for example, our world is dying. And I said, okay, so what is to die wise? And he said, what I first was shocked to hear, he said, hope is the wrong premise. If the world is dying, don't tell people it's not.

1:32:41You know, because in a very interesting way, you're depriving them from the right to live right now. And that was very eye -opening for me. In Buddhism, they teach you that you can be motivated by fear, but that hope is not the opposite of fear. As a matter of fact, hope can be as damaging as fear if it creates an expectation within you that life will show up somehow and correct what you are afraid of. If there is a high probability of a threat, you might as well accept that threat. And I say it is upon me, it is our reality. And as I said, as an individual, if you're in an industry that could be threatened by AI, learn, upskill yourself.

1:33:31If you're in a place, in a situation where AI can benefit you, be part of it. But the most interesting thing I think in my view is, I don't know how to say this any other way. There is no more certainty that AI will threaten me, than there is certainty that I will be hit by a car as I walk out of this place. You understand this? We think about the bigger threats as if they're upon us. But there is a threat all around you. I mean, in reality, the idea of life being interesting, in terms of challenging challenges and uncertainties and threats and so on, is just a call to live. If you know, honestly, with all that's happening around us, I don't know how to say it any other way.

1:34:29I'd say if you don't have kids, maybe wait a couple of years, just so that we have a bit of certainty. But if you do have kids, go kiss them. Go live. I think living is a very interesting thing to do right now. Maybe, you know, Stephen was basically saying the other Stephen on my podcast, he was saying, maybe we should fail a little more often. Maybe you should allow things to go wrong. Maybe we should just simply live, enjoy life as it is because today, none of what you and I spoke about here has happened yet. Okay. What happens here is that you and I are here together and having a good cup of coffee and I might as well enjoy that good cup of coffee.

1:35:09I know that sounds really weird, not saying don't engage, but I'm also saying don't miss out on the opportunity just by being caught up in the future.

1:35:21It kind of stands in that, stands in opposition to the idea of like urgency and emergency there, doesn't it? Does it have to be one or the other if I, if I'm here with you trying to tell the whole world wake up. Does that mean I have to be grumpy and afraid all the time? Not really. Are you said something really interesting now? You said if you have kids, if you don't have kids, maybe don't have kids right now. I would definitely consider thinking about that. Really? You'd seriously consider not having kids. I've weighed a couple of years. Because of artificial intelligence. No, it's bigger than artificial intelligence, Steven, and we all know that.

1:36:02I mean, there has never been a perfect, such a perfect storm in the history of humanity.

1:36:10Economic geopolitical, global warming, or climate change, you know, the whole idea of artificial intelligence and many more. This is a perfect storm. This is the depth of uncertainty. The depth of uncertainty. It's never been more in a video gamers term. It's never been more intense. This is it. Okay. And when you put all of that together, if you really love your kids, would you want to expose them to all of this a couple of years? Why not? In the first conversation we had on this podcast, you talked about losing your son Ali and and the circumstances around that which moved so many people in such a profound way.

1:36:59It was the most shared podcast episode in the United Kingdom on Apple in the whole of 2022. Based on what you've just said, if you could bring Ali back into this world at this time, would you do?

1:37:24No.

1:37:31Absolutely not. So for so many reasons, one of the things that I realized a few years way before all of this disruption and turmoil is that he was an angel, he wasn't made for this thought. Okay, my son was an empath who absorbed all of the pain of all of the others. He would not be able to deal with the world where more and more pain was surfacing that's one side. But more interestingly, I always talk about this very openly. I mean, if I had asked Tali, just understand that the reason you and I are having this conversations because I left. left. If Ali had not left our world, I wouldn't have written my first book.

1:38:19I wouldn't have changed my focus to becoming an author. I wouldn't have become a podcaster. I wouldn't have, you know, went out and spoken to the world about what I believe in. He triggered all of this. And I can assure you, hands down if I had told Ali as he was walking into that operating room if he would give his life to make such a difference as what happened after he left. He would say, shoot me right now. Sure. I would. I would. I mean, if you told me right now, I can affect tens of millions of people if you shoot me right now. Go ahead. Go ahead. See, this is the whole, this is the bit that we have forgotten as humans.

1:39:03We have forgotten that you know you're you're you're turning 30 it passed like that I'm turning 56 no time okay whether I make it another 56 years or another 5 .6 years or another 5 .6 month it will also pass like that it is not about how long and it's not about how much fun, it is about how aligned you lived, how aligned because I will tell you openly every day of my life when I changed to what I'm trying to do today has felt longer than the forty or five years before it, okay, felt rich, felt fully lived, felt right, felt right, okay, and when you When you think about that, when you think about the idea that we live, we need to live for us until we get to a point where us is alive.

1:40:16I have what I need, as I always, I get so many attacks from people about my $4 t -shirts, but I need a simple t -shirt. I really do. I don't need the complex t -shirt, especially with my lifestyle. If I have that, why am I wasting my life on more than I that is not aligned for why I'm here? I should waste my life on what I believe enriches me, enriches those that I love, and I love everyone. So enriches everyone, hopefully. And would I, would I come back and erase all of this? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. If he were to come back today and share his beautiful self with the world in a way that makes our world better, yeah, I would wish for that to be the case.

1:41:12Okay. But he's doing that. 2037. Yes. You predict that we're going to be on an island, on our own doing nothing, or at least, you know, either hiding from the machines or chilling out because the machines have optimized our lives to a point where we don't need to do much. That's only 14 years away. If you had to bet on the outcome, if you had to bet on why we'll be on that island, either hiding from the machines or chilling out because they've optimized so much of our lives, which one would you bet upon? Honestly. Now, I don't think we'll be hiding from the machines. I think we will be hiding from what humans are doing with the machines.

1:42:10I believe, however, that in the 2040s, the machines will make things better. So remember my entire prediction, man, you get me to say things I don't want to say. My entire prediction is that we are coming to a place where we absolutely have a sense of emergency. We have to engage because our world is under a lot of turmoil, okay? And as we do that, we have a very, very good possibility of making things better, but if we don't, my expectation is that we will be going through a very unfamiliar territory between now and the end of the 2030s. And familiar territory? Yeah, I think, as I may have said it, but it's definitely on my notes.

1:43:01I think for our way of life, as we know it, it's game over. Our way of life is never going to be the same again.

1:43:18Jobs are going to be different. Truth is going to be different.

1:43:28The polarization of power is going to be different. the capabilities, the magic of getting things done is going to be different. Trying to find a positive night to end on my... Can you give me a hand here? Yes, you are here now and everything's wonderful, that's number one. You are here now and you can make a difference, that's number two. And in the long term, when humans stop hurting humans because the machines are in charge, we're all going to be fine. Sometimes, you know, as we've discussed throughout this conversation, you need to make it feel like a priority. There'll be some people that might have listened to a conversation and think, oh, that's really, you know, negative.

1:44:10It's made me feel anxious. It's made me feel sort of pessimistic about the future. But whatever that energy is, use it. 100 % engage. Like, I think that's the most important thing, which is now make it a priority. Engage, tell the whole world that making another phone that is making money for the corporate world is not what we need. Tell the whole world that creating an artificial intelligence that's going to make someone richer is not what we need. And if you are presented with one of those, don't use it. I don't know how to tell you that any other way. If you can afford to be the master of human connection, instead of the master of AI, do it.

1:44:58At the same time, you need to be the master of AI to compete in this world. Can you find that detachment within you? I go back to spirituality. Detachment is for me to engage 100 % with the current reality. with out really being affected by the possible outcome. This is the answer. The Sufis have taught me what I believe is the biggest answer to life. Sufis? Yeah, from Sufism. Sufism? Yeah, don't know what that is. Sufism is a sect of Islam but it's also a sect of many other religious teachings. and they tell you that the answer to finding peace in life is to die before you die. If you assume that living is about attachment to everything physical, dying is detachment from everything physical.

1:45:55It doesn't mean that you're not fully alive. You become more alive when you tell yourself, Yeah, I'm going to record an episode of my podcast every week and reach tens or hundreds of thousands of people Millions in your case and you know, and I'm going to make a difference But by the way if the next episode is never heard that's okay Okay, by the way if the if the file is lost. Yeah, I'll be upset about it for a minute and then I'll figure out what I'm gonna do about it similarly Similarly, we are going to engage. I think I and many others are out there telling the whole world, openly, this needs to stop.

1:46:36This needs to slow down. This needs to be shifted positively. Yes, create AI, but create AI that's good for humanity. And we're shouting and screaming, come join the shouting scream. But at the same time, know that the world is bigger than you and I. And that your voice might not be heard. So what are you going to do if your voice is not heard? Are you going to be able to continue to shout and scream nicely and politely and peacefully, and at the same time create the best life you can create to yourself for yourself within this environment? And that's exactly what I'm saying. I'm saying live, go kiss your kids, but make an informed decision if you're expanding your plans in the future.

1:47:23at the same time, rise, stop sharing stupid shit on the internet about the news quickie toy. Start sharing the reality of, oh my god, what is happening? This is a disruption that we have never ever seen anything like. And I've created endless amounts of technologies. It's nothing like this. every single one of us should do. And that's why this conversation is so important to have today. This is not a podcast where I've been talking about AI, I'm going to be honest with you. Last time you came here, it was in the promotional tour of your book, Scary Smart. I don't know if I've told you this before, but my researchers, they said, this guy's coming called Mogorda.

1:48:09I'd heard about you so many times from guests, in fact, that was saying, you need to get Mogorda on the podcast, etc. And then they said, okay, he's written this book about this thing called artificial intelligence. And I was like, oh, nobody really cares about artificial intelligence. Daming, diving, even. I know, right? But then I saw this other book you had called Happiness Equation. And I was like, oh, everyone cares about happiness. So I'll just ask him about happiness. And then maybe at the end, I'll ask him a couple of questions about AI. But I remember saying to my researcher, I said, please, please don't do the research about artificial intelligence.

1:48:39Do it about happiness because everyone cares about that. Now things have changed. Now a lot of people care about artificial intelligence and rightly so. Your book has sounded the alarm on it. It's crazy. When I listened to a audio book over the last few days, you were sounding the alarm then. And it's so crazy how accurate you were in sounding that alarm as if you could see into the future in a way that I definitely couldn't at the time. And I kind of thought of a science fiction. And just like that overnight. We're here. Yeah, we stood at the footsteps of a technological shift that I don't think any of us even have the mental bandwidth, certainly me with my chimpanzee brain to comprehend the significance of, but this book is very, very important for that very reason because it does crystallize things.

1:49:28It is optimistic in its very nature, but at the same time it's honest, and I think that's what this conversation and this book have been for me. So thank you, Mo. Thank you so much. We do have closing traditions podcast which you're you're well aware of being a third timer on the Diary of a CEO which is the last guest asks a question for the next guest and the question left for you.

1:49:56If you could go back in time and fix a regret that you have in your life, where would you go and what would you fix?

1:50:13It's interesting because you were saying that scary smart is very timely. I don't know. I think it was late. But maybe it was. I mean, would I have gone back and written it in 2018 instead of 2020 to be published in 2021? I don't know. What would I go back to fix? So something more. I don't know, Steve. I don't have many regrets. Is that crazy to say?

1:50:45Yeah, I think I'm okay. Honestly. I'll ask you a question then. You get a 60 second phone call with anybody, past or present. Who'd you call them, would you say? I call Stephen Bartlett. I call Albert Einstein to be very, very clear. Not because I need to understand any of his work. I just need to understand what brain process he went through to figure out something so obvious when you figure it out, but so completely unimaginable if you haven't. So his view of space time truly redefines everything. It's almost the only very logical, very, very clear solution to something that wouldn't have any solution any other way.

1:51:35And if you ask me, I think we're at this time where there must be a very obvious solution to what we're going through in terms of just developing enough human trust for us to not compete with each other on something that could be threatening, existentially, to all of us. But I just can't find that answer. This is why I think was really interesting in this conversation how every idea that we would come up with, we would find a loophole through it. But there must be one out there and it would be a dream for me to find out how to figure that one out. In a very interesting way, the only answers I have found so far to where we are is be a good parent and live.

1:52:19right? But that doesn't fix the big picture. If you think about it of humans being the threat not AI that fixes our existence today and it fixes AI in the long term, but it just doesn't, I don't know what the answer is, maybe people can reach out and tell us ideas, but I really wish we could find such a clear simple solution for how to stop humanity from abusing the current I think we'll figure it out. I think we'll figure it out. I really do. I think they'll figure it out as well. Remember, as they come and be part of our life, let's not discriminate against them. They're part of the game. So I think they will figure it out too.

1:53:07No, thank you. It's been a joy once again and I feel invigorated, I feel empowered, I feel positively terrified. But I feel more equipped to speak to people about the nature of what's coming and how we should behave. And I credit you for that. And I said a second ago, I credit this book for that as well. So thank you so much for the work you're doing and keep on doing it because it's a very essential voice in a time of uncertainty. Okay. I'm always super grateful for the time I spend with you for the support that you give me and for allowing me to speak my mind even if it's a little bit terrifying.

1:53:44Thank you. Thank you.

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