Ex-Google Exec (Mo Gawdat) on AI: The Next 15 Years Will Be Hell Before We Get To Heaven… And Only These 5 Jobs Will Remain!

29:23I've got this one for my email. I've got this one for my dating. I've got no, no, no, no, no, no. They're pretty much, I would be, I would hazard a guess that they're probably all open AI at this point. No, there are quite a few quite different characters and quite differently. But there's like 506. There are five or six when it comes to language models. Yeah. Right. But interestingly, so yes, I should say yes to start. And then I should say, but there was an interesting twist with deep seek at the beginning of the year. So what deep seek did is they basically the nullified the business model if you want.

29:59In two ways. One is it was around the week or two after Trump stood with pride saying Stargate is the biggest investment project in the history and it's $500 billion to build AI infrastructure and soft bank and Larry Allison and some Altman who are sitting and so beautiful picture. And then DeepSeek R3 comes out. It does the job for one over 30 of the cost. And interestingly, it's an entirely open source and available as an edge AI. So that's really, really interesting because there could be now in the future, as the technology improves, the learning models would be massive, but then you can compress them into something you can have on your phone.

30:45And you can download deep seek literally offline on a, you know, an off the network computer and build an AI on it. There's a website that basically tracks the sort of cleanest Apple's market share of all the website referrals sent by AI chatbots and chat GBT's currently at 79%, roughly about 80 % of Plexis at 11, Microsoft Copialis at about five, Google Gemini's at about two, Claude's about one and deep seeks about 1%. And really like the point that I want to land is just that when you hear of a new AI app or tool or this one can make this built on one of them. It's basically built on one of these really three or four AI platforms.

31:29That's controlled really by three or four AI, you know, billionaire teams. And actually the one of them that gets to what we call AGI first, whether AI gets really, really advanced, one could say is potentially going to rule the world as it relates to technology? Yes, if they get enough head start. So I actually think that what I'm more concerned about now is not AGI, I believe, or not. So AGI in my mind, and I said that back in 2023, that we will get to AGI at the time I said 2027. Now I believe 2026 latest. The most interesting development that nobody is talking about is self evolving AI. Self evolving AI is think of it this way.

32:24If you and I are hiring the top engineer in the world to develop our AI models and with AGI that top engineer in the world becomes an AI. Who would you hire to develop your next generation AI? That AI. But when I can teach itself. Correct. So one of my favorite examples is called alpha evolve. So this is Google's attempt to basically have four agents working together. Four AI is working together. To look at the code of the AI and say, what are the performance issues? Then an agent would say, what's the problem statement? What do I need to fix? One that actually develops the solution. One that assesses the solution.

33:08And then they continue to do this. And I don't remember the exact figure, but I think Google improved like 8 % on their AI infrastructure because of alpha evolve. Right? And when you really, really think, don't quote me on the number 8 to 10, 6 to 10, whatever. In Google terms, by the way, that is massive. That's billions and billions of dollars. Now, the trick here is this. The trick is, again, you have to think in game theory format. Is there any scenario we can think of where if one player uses AI to develop the next generation AI that the other players will say no, no, no, no, that's too much, you know, takes us out of control.

33:52Every other player will copy that model and have their next AI model developed by an AI. Is this what Sam Altman talks about who's the founder of Chatch .pt Slash Open Eye when he talks about a fast takeoff? I don't know exactly what you're referring to, but we're all talking about a point now that we call the intelligence explosion. So there is a moment in time where you have to imagine that if AI now is better than 97 % of all code developers in the world, and soon we'll be able to look at its own code, own algorithms, by the way, they're becoming incredible mathematicians, which wasn't the case when we lost met.

34:30If they can improve their own code, improve their own algorithms, improve their own network architecture or whatever, you can imagine that very quickly the force applied to developing the next AI is not going to be a human brain anymore. It's going to be a much smarter brain. And very quickly as humans, like basically when we ran the Google infrastructure, when the machine said we need another server or a proxy server in that place, we followed. we never really wanted to object or verify because the code would probably know better because there are billions of transactions an hour or a day. And so very quickly, those self -evolving AIs will simply say, I need 14 more servers there.

35:18And the team will just go ahead and do it. I watched a video a couple of days ago where he, Sam Altman, effectively had changed his mind, because in 2023, which is when we last met, he said the aim was for a slow takeoff, which is sort of gradual deployment. And OpenAI's 2003, 2023 notes, as a slower takeoff, is easier to make safe and they prefer iterative rollouts society can adapt. In 2025, they changed their mind. And Sam Alpman said, he now thinks a fast takeoff is more possible than he did a couple of years ago on the order of a small number of years rather than a decade. And to define what we mean by a fast takeoff, it's defined as when AI goes from roughly human level to far beyond human very quickly think months to a few years faster than government's companies or society can adapt with little warning, big power shifts and hard to control.

36:20A slow takeoff by contrast is where capabilities he's climbed gradually over many years with lots of warning shots. And the red flags for a fast takeoff is when AI can self -improve run autonomous research and development and scale with massive compute compounding gains which will snowball fast. So, and I think from the video that I watched of Sam Orman recently, who again is the founder of OpenAryan Church of B .T., he basically says, and I'm paraphrasing here, I will put it on the screen, we have this community notes thing, I'll write it on the screen. They here effectively said that whoever gets to AGI first will have the technology to develop super intelligence, where the AI can rapidly increase its own intelligence.

37:05Yeah. And it will basically leave everyone else behind. Yes. So that last bit is debatable, but let's just agree that so in alive, you know, one of the posts I shared and got a lot of interest is I refer to the the ultimate as a brand, not as a human. Okay. So the ultimate is that persona of a California disruptive technologist that disrespects everyone. Okay. And believes that disruption is good for humanity and believes that this is good for safety. And like everything else, like we say, war is for democracy and freedom, they say developing, putting AI on the open internet is good for everyone.

37:48It allows us to learn from our mistakes. That was Sam Altman's 2023 Spiel. And if you recall, at the time, I was like, this is the most dangerous, one of the clips that really went viral. You're so clever at finding the right clips. I did the clipping, mate. I remember the clip, what I said, we fucked up. up. We always said, don't put them on the open internet until we know what we're putting out in the world. I'm going to be saying that. Yeah, we fucked up on putting it on the open internet, teaching it to code and putting agents, AI agents, prompting other AI's. Now AI agents prompting other AI's are leading to self -developing AI's.

38:32And the problem is, of course, we, you know, anyone who has been on the inside of this new that this was just a clever spiel made by a PR manager for a Sam Altman to sit with his dreamy eyes in front of Congress and say, we want you to regulate us. Now they're saying we're unregulatable. Okay. And when you really understand what's happening here, what's happening is it's so fast that none of them has the choice to slow down. It's impossible. neither China versus America or OpenAI versus Google. The only thing that I may have may see happening that you know, that may differ a little bit from your statement is if one of them gets there first, then they dominate for the rest of humanity, that is probably true if they get there first with an enough buffer.

39:31Okay, but the way you look at GROC coming a week after after OpenAI, a week after, you know, Gemini, a week after Claude, and then Claude comes again, and then China releases something, and then Korea releases something. It is so fast that we may get a few of them at the same time or a few months apart, okay? Before one of them has enough power to become dominant. And that is a very interesting scenario. Multiple AI is all super intelligent. It's funny, you know, I got asked yesterday I was in Belgium on stage. There was I know maybe 4 ,000 people in the audience and I kids stood up and he was like, you've had a lot of conversations in the last year about AI.

40:15What do you care? And I don't think people realize how even though I've had so many conversations in this podcast, but AI. Have you ever made up your mind? I have no questions in ever. I know. And it doesn't seem that anyone can say shit. anyone that tells you they can predict the future is arrogant. Yeah. It's never moved so fast. It's nothing like nothing I've ever seen. And by the time that we leave this conversation and I go to my computer, there's going to be some incredible new technology or application of AI that didn't exist when I woke up this morning. That creates probably another paradigm shift in my brain.

40:52Also, people have different opinions of Elon Musk and they're entitled to their own opinion. But the other day, only a couple of days ago, he did a tweet where he said at times, AI existential dread is overwhelming. And on the same day, he tweeted, I resisted AI for too long, living in denial. Now it is game on. And he tagged his AI companies. I don't know what to make it. I don't know what to make of those tweets. I don't know. And you to figure out if someone like Sam Wotman has the best interests of society at heart. No. Or if these people are just like people. I'm saying that publicly. No.

41:41As a matter of fact, I know Sundar Pachai. I know that CEO of Alphabet's Google's parent company. An amazing human being. In all honesty. I know Dennis has said this. Amazing human being. Okay. You know, these are are ethical, incredible humans at heart. They have no choice. Sundar by law is demanded to take care of his shareholder value. That's his job. But Sundar, you said you know him, you used to work at Google. Yeah. He's not going to do anything that he thinks is going to harm humanity. But if he does not continue to advance AI, that by definition contradicts his responsibility as the CEO of a publicly traded company, he is liable by law to continue to advance the agenda.

42:33It's absolutely no doubt about it. But he's a good person at heart. Demesis is a good person at heart. So they're trying so hard to make it safe. Okay. As much as they can. reality, however, is the disruptor, the ultimate as a brand, doesn't care that much. How do you know that? In reality, the disruptor is someone that comes in with the objective of, I don't like the status quo, I have a different approach. And that different approach, if you just look at the story, was we are a non -for -profit that is funded mostly by Elon Musk money, It's not entirely about Elon Musk money. So context for people that might not understand, open AI, the reason I always give context is, funnily enough, I think I told you this last time, I went to a prison where they play the Dirovasseo.

43:21No way. So they played the Dirovasseo, and I think it's 50 prisons in the UK. Do you have any violence there? Well, I don't know. I can't tell you where the violence has gone up or down, but I was in the cell with one of the prisoners, a young black guy, and I was in his cell for a little while. It's wonderful. I was reading through his business plan, et cetera. And I said, you know what, you need to listen to this conversation I did with Mo Gordak. So he has a little screen in his cell. So I pulled it up, you know, a fast conversation. I said, you should listen to that one. And he said to me, he said, I can't listen to that one, because you guys use big words.

43:51So ever since that day, which was about... I noticed that about you. For years ago, sorry. I've always, whenever I hear a big word, I think about this kid. Yeah. And I say, like, give context. Yeah. So even with the... You're about to just explain what OpenAi is. I know he won't know what OpenAi's origin story was. That's why I think that's a wonderful practice in general by the way even but you know being an unnative English speaker You'll be amazed how often a word is said to me and I'm like yeah, don't know We put that so like I've actually never said this publicly before but I now see it as my responsibility to be To keep the draw the draw bridge To accessibility of these conversations down for him so whenever I Whenever there's a word that at some point in my life I didn't know what it meant.

44:39I will get back outside the classroom. I think that I've noticed that in the you know more and more in your podcast and I really appreciate it. And we also show it on the screens. Yeah. I think that's wonderful. I mean the origin story of OpenAI is as the name suggests it's open source. It's for the public good. It was intended in Elon Musk's words to save the world from the dangers of AI. right? So they were doing research on that. And then, you know, there was the disagreement between Sam Altman and Elon somehow, Elon ends up being out of OpenAI. I think there was a moment in time where he tried to take it back and, you know, the board rejected it or something like that.

45:21Most of the top safety engineers, the top technical teams in OpenAI I left in 2023, 2024, openly saying, we're not concerned with safety anymore. It moves from being an unfor -profit to being one of the most valued companies in the world. There are billions of dollars at stake. And if you tell me that Sam Altman is out there trying to help humanity, let's suggest to him and say, hey, do you want to do that for free? will pay you up very good salary, but you don't have stocks in this. Saving humanity doesn't come at the billion dollar value issue. Or of course now tens of billions or hundreds of billions.

46:04And see, truly that is when you know that someone is doing it for the good of humanity. Now, the capital system we've built is not built for the good of humanity, it's built for the good of the capitalist. Well, he might say that releasing the model publicly, open sourcing it, is too risky, because then bad actors around the world would have access to that technology. So he might say that closing open AI in terms of not making it publicly viable is the right thing to do for safety. We go back to Galibal cheer leaders, right? One of the interesting tricks is of lying in our world is everyone will say what helps their agenda.

46:51Follow the money. Okay, you follow the money and you find that, you know, at the point in time, Samaritan himself was saying it's open AI. Okay, my benefit at the time is to give it to the world, so that the world looks at it, they know the code, if there is, if there are any bugs and so on. True statement. Also a true statement is if I put it out there in the world, A criminal might take that model and build something that's against humanity as a result. Also, true statement. Capitalists will choose which one of the truths to say. Based on which part of the agenda, which part of their life today, they want to serve.

47:30Someone will say, do you want me to be controversial? Let's not go there. But if we go back to war, I'll give you 400 slogans. 400 slogans that we all hear, that change based on the day and the army and the location and the... They're all slogans, none of them is true. You want to know the truth, you follow the money. Not what the person is saying, but ask yourself, why is the person saying that? What's in it for the person speaking? And what do you think is in it for a chat, you be to say Sam Ottman? A hundred of billions of dollars of valuation. And do you think it's not a power? The ego of being the person that invented AGI, the position of power that this gives you, the meetings with all of the heads of states, the admiration that gets granted.

48:22It is intoxicating. 100%, 100%. And the real question, this is a question I ask everyone. Did you see it? You didn't, every time I ask you, you say, didn't, did you see the movie, Ilyssium? No, you'd be surprised how little, maybe what you'd like to do, you'd be shocked. There are some movies that are very interesting. I use them to create an emotional attachment to a story that you haven't seen yet, because you may have seen it in a movie. Ilyssium is a society where the elites are living on the moon. They don't need peasants to do the work anymore, and everyone else is living down here. Okay.

49:02You have to imagine that if again, game theory, you have to, you know, picture something to infinity to its extreme and see where it goes. And the extreme of a world where all manufactured is done manufacturing is done by machines. Where all decisions are made by machines and those machines are owned by a few. is not an economy similar to today's economy. That today's economy is an economy of consumerism and production. It's the, in a live, I call it the invention of more. The invention of more is that post -World War II, as the factories were rolling out things and prosperity was happening everywhere in America.

49:48There was a time where every family had enough of everything. But for the capitalist to continue to be profitable, they needed to convince you that what you had was not enough. Either by making it obsolete like fashion or like, you know, a new shape of a car or whatever, or by convincing you that there are more things in life that you need, so that you become complete without those things you don't. And that invention of more gets us to where we are today, an economy that's based on production consumed. And if you look at the US economy today, 62 % of the US economy GDP is consumption. It's not production.

50:27Okay. Now this requires that the consumers have enough purchasing power to buy what is produced. And I believe that this will be an economy that will take us hopefully in the next 10, 15, 20 years and forever. But that's not guaranteed. Why? Because on one side, if you be I replace this purchasing power. So if people have to get an income from the government, which is basically taxes collected from those using AI and robots to make things, the mindset of capitalism, labor arbitrage means those people are not producing anything and they're costing me money. Why don't we pay them less and less? Maybe even not pay them at all.

51:14And that becomes illicit. What you basically say, you know, we sit somewhere, protected from everyone. We have the machines do all of our work. And those need to worry about themselves. We're not going to pay them UBI anymore. Right? And you have to imagine, This idea of UBI assumes this very democratic caring society. UBI in itself is communism. Think of the ideology between at least socialism, the ideology of giving everyone what they need. That's not the capitalist democratic society that the West advocates. So those transitions are massive in magnitude. And for those transitions to happen, I believe the right thing to do when the cost of producing everything is almost zero because of AI and robots, because the cost of harvesting energy should actually tend to zero once we get more intelligent to harvest the energy out of thin air.

52:18Then a possible scenario, and I believe a scenario that AI will eventually do in the utopia is, yeah, anyone can get anything they want. Don't over consume. We're not going to abuse the planet resources, but it costs nothing. So like the old days where we were hunter -gatherers, you would forge for some berries and you'll find them ready in nature. Okay? We can in 10 years time, 12 years time, build a society where you can forge for an iPhone in nature. It will be made out of thin air. Nanophysics will allow you to do that. But the challenge, believe it or not, is not tech. The challenge is a mindset because the elite, why would they give you that for free?

53:06And the system would morph into, no, no, hold on, we will make more money, we will be bigger capitalists, we will feed our ego and hunger for power more and more. And for them, give them UBI and then three weeks later give them less UBI. Aren't there going to be lots of new jobs created though because when we think about the other revolutions over time, whether it's the industrial revolution or other sort of big technological revolutions, in the moment we forecasted that everyone was going to lose their jobs, but we couldn't see all the new jobs that were being created. Because the machines replaced the human strengths at the point in time and very few places in the West today will have a worker carry things on their back and carry it upstairs.

53:54The machine does that work. Correct? Yeah. Similarly, AI is going to replace the brain of a human. When the West in its interesting virtual colonies that I call it, basically outsourced all labor to the developing nations, What the West publicly said at the time is, we're going to be a services economy. We're not interested in making things and stitching things. So, let the Indians and Chinese and, you know, Bengalis and Vietnamese do that, we're going to do more refined jobs. Knowledge workers, we're going to call them. Knowledge workers are people who work with information and click on a keyboard and move a mouse and, you know, sitting meetings and all we produce in the Western societies is what?

54:41blah blah blah, words, right? Or designs maybe sometimes, but everything we produce can be produced by an AI.

54:52So if I give you an AI tomorrow, where I give you a piece of land, I give the AI a piece of land, and I say, here are the parameters of my land. Here is its location on Google Maps. Design and architecturally sound will for me. I care about a lot of light, and I need three bedrooms. I want my bathrooms to be in white marble, whatever. And the AI produces it like that. How often will you go to an architect and say, right? So what will the architect do? The best of the best of the architects will either use AI to produce that. Or you will consult with them and say, Hey, you know, I've seen this and they'll say, It's really pretty, but it wouldn't feel right for the person that you are.

55:37Yeah, those jobs will remain, but how many of them will remain? How often do you think, how many more years do you think I will be able to create a book that is smarter than AI?

55:52Not many. I will still be able to connect to a human. You're not going to hug an AI when you meet them like you hug me. But that's not enough of a job. So, why do I say that? Remember I asked you at the beginning of the podcast to remind me of solutions. Why do I say that? Because there are ideological shifts and then concrete actions that need to be taken by governments today. Rather than waiting until COVID is already everywhere and then locking everyone down, governments could have reacted before the first patient or at least at patient zero or at least at patient 50, they didn't. What I'm trying to say is there is no doubt that lots of jobs will be lost.

56:38There is no doubt that there will be sectors of society where 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 % of all developers, all software, you know, all graphic designers, all online marketers, all, all, all, all, all, all, assistencies are going to be out of a job. So, are we prepared as a society to do that? Can we tell our governments there is an ideological shift? This is very close to socialism and communism, okay? And are we ready from a budget point of view instead of spending a trillion dollars a year on arms and explosives and autonomous weapons that will oppress people because we can't feed them? Can we please shift that?

57:24I did those numbers. I go back to military spending because it's all around us, $2 .71 trillion, $2 .42 .7 is the estimate of 2024. How much money we're spending on military equipment, on things that we're going to explode into smoke and death. Extreme poverty worldwide, extreme poverty is people that are below the poverty line. Extreme poverty everywhere in the world could end for 10 to 12 % of that budget. So if we replace our military spending 10 % of that to go to people who are in extreme poverty, nobody will be poor in the world. You can end a world hunger for less than 4%. Nobody would be hungry in the world.

58:09If you take again 10 % to 12 % universal healthcare, every human being on the planet would have free healthcare for 10 % to 12 % on what we're spending on war. Now, why do I say this when we're talking about AI? Because that's a simple decision. If we stop fighting, because money itself does not have the same meaning anymore, because the economics of money is going to change, because the entire meaning of capitalism is ending, because there is no more need for labor, arbitrage, because AI is doing everything. Just with the $2 .4 trillion we save in explosives every year, in arms and weapons, just for that, universal healthcare and extreme poverty, you could actually, one of the calculations is you could end climate or combat climate change meaningfully for 100 % of the military budget.

59:06But I'm not even sure it's really about the money, I think money is a measurement stick of power, right? Exactly. It's printed on demand. So even in a world where we have super intelligence and money is no longer a problem. Correct. I still think power is going to be insatiable for so many people. So there'll still be war because, you know, I want the strongest, I want the strongest AI. I don't want my and I don't want to know what Henry, Henry Kasinger called them. The eaters, the eaters. Yeah, brutal as that sounds. What is that the people at the bottom of the socio -economic? That don't produce but consume.

59:47So if you had a Henry Kissinger at the at the Helm and we have so many of them, what would they think? I don't even know if I was... Why? I'm a very prominent military figure in the US history. You know, why would we feed 350 million Americans, Americans think, but more interestingly, why don't you even care about Bangladesh anymore? If we can't make our textiles there or we don't want to make our textile there. Do you, you know, I imagine throughout human history, if we had podcasts, conversations would have been warning of a dystopia around the corner. You know, when they had technology on the internet, they would have said, I want to finish it.

1:00:29When the tractor came along, they would have said, Oh God, we're finished because we're not going to be able to farm anymore. So is this not just another one of those moments where we couldn't see around the corner so we we forecasted Unfortunate things You could be I am begging that I'm wrong Okay, I'm just asking if there are scenarios that you think that can provide that you know Mustafa Suleiman in You hosted him here. I did yeah, he was on the show coming wave. Yeah, and he speaks about About pessimism aversion Okay? That all of us, people who are supposed to be in technology and business and so on who are always supposed to, you know, stand on stage and say, the future is going to be amazing.

1:01:11You know, this technology I'm building is going to make everything better. One of my posts in our life was called the Broken Promises. How often did that happen? Okay? How often did social media connect us? And how many, how and how often did it make us more lonely? How how often did mobile phones make us work less? That was the promise. That was the promise, the promise, the early ads of Nokia were people at parties. Is that your experience of mobile phones? And I think the whole idea is we should hope there will be other roles for humanity, by the way. Those roles would resemble the times where we were hunter -gatherers, just a lot more technology and a lot more safety.

1:01:56Okay, so this is this sounds good. Yeah, this is exciting. So I'm gonna I'm gonna get to go outside more be with my friends more 100 % fantastic and do absolutely nothing. And that's fantastic. No, it does. Do be forced to do absolutely nothing for some people. It's amazing for you and I we're gonna find the little carpentry project and just do something. Speak for yourself. I'm still people are still gonna tune in. Correct. Yeah. But what and people are going to tune in. Do you I think they will. I'm not convinced they will. And for as long. Well, you guys tune in. Are you guys still going to tune in?

1:02:30I can let them answer. I believe for as long as you make their life enriched. But can an AI do that better? Without the human connection. Comment below. Are you going to listen to an AI or the diorobosue? Let me know in the comment section below. Remember as incredibly intelligent as you are, Steve, there will be a moment in time where you're going to sound really dumb compared to an AI. And I will sound completely dumb. Yeah, yeah. The depths, the depths of analysis and gold nodets. I mean, can you imagine two super intelligences deciding to get together and explain string theory to us? They'll do better than any physicist in the world because they possess the physics knowledge and they also possess social and language knowledge that most deep physicists don't.

1:03:26I think B2B marketers keep making this mistake. They're chasing volume instead of quality. And when you try to be seen by more people instead of the right people, all you're doing is making noise, but that noise rarely shifts the needle, and it's often quite expensive. And I know, as I was the time in my career where I kept making this mistake, that many of you will be making it too. Eventually, I started posting ads on our show sponsors platform LinkedIn. And that's when things started to change. I put that change down to a few critical things. One of them being that LinkedIn was then and still is today, the platform where decision makers go to, not only to think and learn, but also to buy.

1:04:03And when you market your business there, you're putting it right in front of people who actually have the power to say yes. And you can target them by job title, industry, and company size. It's simply a sharper way to spend your marketing budget. And if you haven't tried it, how about this? give LinkedIn ads a try and I'm going to give you a hundred dollar ad credit to get you started. If you visit LinkedIn .com slash diary, you can claim that right now. That's LinkedIn .com slash diary. I've really gone back and forward on this idea that even in podcasting, that all the podcasts will be AI podcasts or I've gone back and forward on it.

1:04:38And where I landed it in the day was that there'll still be a category of media where you do want lived experience on some hundred percent. For example, you want to know how the person that you follow in admire dealt with their divorce. Yeah. Or how they're struggling with AI. For example, yeah, exactly. But I think things like news, there are certain situations where just like straight news and straight facts and maybe a walk through history, maybe a roaded away by AI's. But even in those scenarios, there's something about personality. And again, I hesitate here because I question myself. I'm not in the camp of people that are romantic, by the way.

1:05:18I'm trying to be as orientated towards whatever is true, even if it's against my interests. And I hope people understand that about me. Because even in my company's way of experiment, with disrupting me with AI, and some people will be aware of those experiments. I guess there will be a mix of all. You can't imagine that the world will be completely just AI and completely just podcasters. You'll see a mix of both. You'll see things that they do better, things that we do better. The message I'm trying to say is we need to prep for that. We need to be ready for that. We need to be ready by talking to our governments and saying, hey, it looks like I'm a paralegal and it looks like all paralegals are going to be financial researchers or analysts or graphic designers or call center agents.

1:06:08It looks like half of those jobs are being replaced You know who Jeffrey Hinton is? Oh, Jeffrey. I had him on the documentary as well. I love Jeffrey. Jeffrey Hinton told me... Train to be a plumber. Really? Yeah. 100%. For a while. And I thought he was joking. And so I asked him again. And he looked me dead in the eye and told me that I should train to be a plumber. 100%. So it's funny, huh? Machines replaced labor, but we still had blue collar. Then the refined jobs became white color information workers. What's the refined jobs? You don't have to really carry heavy stuff or deal with physical work.

1:06:48You sit in an office and sit in meetings all day and blabber. You know, useless shit and that's your job. And those jobs, funny enough in the reverse of that, because robotics are not ready yet. And I believe they're not ready because of a stubbornness on the robotics community around making them humanoid, because it takes so much to perfect a human -like action at proper speed. You could have many more robots that don't look like a human, just like a self -driving car in California. That does already replace drivers. But they're delayed. So the replacement of physical manual labor It's going to take four to five years before it's possible at the quality of the AI replacing mental labor now.

1:07:43And when that happens, it's going to take a long cycle to manufacture enough robots so that they replace all of those jobs. So that cycle will take longer. Blue color will stay longer. So I should move into blue color and shut down my office. I think you're not the problem. Okay. Let's put it this way. There are many people that we should care about that are a simple travel agent or an assistant that will see if not replacement a reduction in the number of things they're getting. Simple as that.

1:08:21And someone in, you know, ministries of labor around the world needs to sit down and say, well, are we going to do about that? What if all taxi drivers and Uber drivers in California get replaced by itself driving cars? Should we start thinking about that now, noticing that the trajectory makes it look like a possibility? I'm going to go back to the song, which is what a lot of people will be shouting. Yes, but there will be new jobs or, and I, as I said, other than human connection jobs, name me one. So I've got three assistants, right? Sophie, Liam, B. And okay, in the near term, there might be, you know, with AI agents, I might not need them to help me book flights anymore.

1:09:11I might not need them to help do scheduling anymore, or even I've been messing around with this new AI tool that my friend built. And you basically, when me and you're trying to schedule something like this today, I just copy the AI in and it looks at your calendar, looks at mine and schedules it for us. So there might not be scheduling needs, but my dog is sick at the moment. And as I left this morning, I was like, damn, it's like really sick and I've taken him to the vet over and over again. I really need someone to look after him and figure out what's wrong with him. So those kinds of responsibilities of like care, I don't disagree at all.

1:09:42Again, or I wouldn't, I'm not going to be, I don't have to say this in a nice way, but my assistance will still have their jobs, but I as a CEO will be asking them to do a different type of work. Correct. So this is the calculation everyone needs to be aware of. A lot of their current responsibility, whoever you are, if you are apparently a geol of your whatever, will be handed over. Let me explain it even more accurately. There will be two stages of our interactions with the machines. One is what I call the error of augmented intelligence. So it's human intelligence augmented with AI doing the job.

1:10:21And then the following one is what I call the error of machine mastery. The job is done completely by an AI without a human in the loop. Okay. So in the error of augmented intelligence, your assistencies will augment themselves with an AI to either be more productive. Okay? Or interestingly, to reduce the number of tasks that they need to do. Correct? Now, the more the number of tasks get reduced, the more they'll have the bandwidths and ability to do tasks like take care of your dog. Right? Or tasks that, you know, basically is about meeting your guests or whatever, human connection. Yeah. life connection.

1:11:05But do you think you need three for that? Or maybe now that some tasks have been outsourced to AI, will you need two? You can easily calculate that from call center agents. So from call center agents, they're not firing everyone, but they're taking the first part of the funnel and giving it to an AI. So instead of having two thousand agents in a call center, they can now do the job with 1 ,800. I'm just making that number up. Society needs to think about the 200. And you're telling me that they won't move into other roles somewhere else? I am telling you, I don't know what those roles are. I think we should all be musicians, we should all be authors, we should all be artists, we should all be entertainers, we should all be comedians, we should all these are roles that we're making.

1:11:52We should all be plumbers for the next five to ten years. Fantastic. Okay? But even that requires society to morph. And society is not talking about it. Okay? I had this wonderful interview with friends of mine, Peter Diamandis, and some of our friends. And they were saying, oh, you know, the American people are resilience. They're going to be entrepreneurs. I was like, seriously, You're expecting a truck driver that would be repraced by an autonomous truck to become an entrepreneur. Like, please put yourself in the shoes of real people. Right? You expect a single mother who has three jobs.

1:12:36To become an entrepreneur. And I'm not saying this is a dystopia. It's a dystopia if humanity manages it badly. Why? Because this could be the utopia itself for that single mother does not need three jobs. Okay? If we of our society was just enough, that single mother should have never needed three jobs. Right? But the problem is our capitalist mindset is labor arbitrage. Is that? I don't care what she goes through. You know, if you're if you're generous in your assumption, you'd say because, you know of what I've been given, I've been blessed, or if you're mean in your assumption, it's going to be because she's an eater.

1:13:19I'm a successful businessman. The world is supposed to be fair. I work hard. I make money. We don't care about them. Are we asking of ourselves here something that is not inherent in the human condition? What I mean by that is the reason why me and you are in this, my office here, we're on the fourth or third floor of my office in Central London, big office, 25 ,000 square feet with lights and internet connections and Wi -Fi's and modems and AI teams downstairs. The reason that all of this exists is because something inherent in my ancestors meant that they built and accomplished and grew and that was like inherent in their DNA.

1:14:00There was something in their DNA that said, we will expand and conquer and accomplish. So they've passed that to us because we're they're offspring. And that's why we find ourselves in these skyscrapers. There is truth to that story. It's not your ancestors. Right. What is it? It's the media brainwashing you. Really? 100%. But if you look back, but sometimes, of media, the reason why hemosaapiens were so successful was because they were able to dominate other tribes through banding together in communication. They conquered all these other, these other, whatever came before home sapiens. Yeah, so the reason humans were successful in my view is because they could format thrive to start.

1:14:42It's not because of our intelligence, I always joke and say Einstein would be eating in the jungle in two minutes, right? The reason why we succeed is because Einstein could partner with a big guy that protected him while he was working on relativity in the jungle, right? Now, the further than that, so you have to assume that life is a very funny game because it provides and then it deprives and then it provides and then it deprives. And for some of us in that stage of deprivation we try to say, okay, let's take the other guys. You know, let's just go to the other tribe take what they have. Or for some of us, unfortunately, we tend to believe, okay, you know what, I'm powerful.

1:15:29If the rest of you, I'm just going to be the boss. Now, it's interesting that you, you know, position this as the condition of humanity. If you really look at the majority of humans, what do the majority of humans want? Be honest, they want to hug their kids, they want the good meal, one good sex, they want love, They want, you know, to, for most humans, don't measure on you and I. Okay? Don't measure by this foolish person that's dedicated the rest of his life to try and warn the world around AI or, you know, solve love and relationships. That's, that's crazy. That's, and I will tell you openly, and you met Hannah, my wonderful wife.

1:16:15It's the biggest title of this year for me is which of that am I actually responsible for? Which of that should I do without the sense of responsibility? Which of that should I do because I can which of that should I ignore completely? But the reality is most humans they just want to hug their loved ones And if we could give them that without the you know the need to work 20 you know for 60 hours a week, they would take that for sure. And you and I will think, Ah, but life will be very boring. To them life will be completely fulfilling. Go to Latin America. Go to Latin America and see the people that go work enough to earn enough to eat today and go dance for the whole night.

1:17:04Go to Africa, where people are sitting literally on sidewalks in the street. and completely fall of laughter and joy. We were light to the gullible majority, the cheerleaders. We were light to believe that we need to fit as another gear in that system, but if that system didn't exist, nobody, none of us will go wake up in the morning and go like, oh, I wanna create it. Totally not. I mean, you've touched on it many times today, We don't need, you know, most people that build those things don't need the money. So what did they do at that? Because home -o sapiens were incredible competitors. They out -computed other human species effectively.

1:17:55So what I'm saying is that competition not inherent in our wiring. And therefore, is it wishful thinking to think that we could potentially pause and say, We, we, we, okay, this is it. We have enough now and we're going to focus on just enjoying. In my work, I call that the map, mad spectrum. Okay. I mean, mutually I should prosperity versus mutually I should destruction, it's destruction. Okay. And you really have to start thinking about this because in my mind, what we have is the potential for everyone. I mean, you You and I today have a better life than the Queen of England a hundred years ago.

1:18:41Correct? Everybody knows that. And yet that quality of life is not good enough. The truth is, like, just like you walk into an electronics shop and there are 60 TVs and you look at them and you go like, this one is better than that one, right? But in reality, if you take any of them home, it's superior quality to anything that you ever need more than anything you never need. That's the truth of our life today. The truth of our life today is that there isn't much more missing. And when, you know, Californians tell us, oh, but AI is going to increase productivity and solve this. And nobody asked you for that.

1:19:21Honestly, I never elected you to decide on my behalf that, you know, getting a machine to answer me on a call center is better for me. I really didn't. And because those unelected individuals are making all the decisions, they're selling those decisions to us through what medium. Okay? All lies from A to Z. None of it is what you need. And interestingly, you know me, I this year I failed, unfortunately, I won't be able to do it, but I normally do a 40 days silent retreat in nature. Okay? And you know what? Even as I go to those nature places, I'm so well -trained that unless I have a weight rose nearby, I'm not able to.

1:20:08Okay, I'm in nature, but I need to be able to drive 20 minutes to get my rice cakes. Like what? What? Who taught me that this is the way to live? All of the media around me, all of the of the messages that I get all the time. Try to sit back and say, what if life had everything? What if I had everything I needed? I could read, I could do my handcrafts and hobbies. I could fix my, you know, restore classic cars not because I need the money but because it's just a beautiful hobby. I could, you know, build AIs to help people with their long -term committed relationships but really price it for free.

1:20:56What if? What if? Would you still insist on making money? I think no. I think a few of us will still, and they will still crush the rest of us and hopefully soon the AI will crush them. Right? That is the problem with your world today. I will tell you hands down. The problem with with our world today is the A in face RIPs. It's the A in face RIPs, it's accountability. The problem with our world today, as I said, the top is lying all the time, the bottom is galleball, cheerleaders, and there is no accountability. You cannot hold anyone in our world accountable today. You cannot hold someone that develops an AI that has the power to completely flip our world upside down, you cannot hold them accountable and say, why did you do this?

1:21:50You cannot hold them accountable and tell them to stop doing this. You could look at the world, the wars around the world, 1 ,000 ,000 of thousands of people are dying. And, you know, International Court of Justice will say, oh, this is war crimes, you can't hold anyone accountable. You have 51 % of the US today saying stop that. 51 % change their view that their money shouldn't be spent on wars abroad. You can't hold anyone accountable. Trump can do whatever he wants. He starts tariffs, which is against the constitution of the US without consulting with the Congress. You can't hold him accountable.

1:22:31They say they're not going to show the Epstein files. you can't hold them accountable. It's quite interesting. In Arabic we have that proverb that says, the highest of your horses you can go and ride. I'm not going to change my mind. Okay? And that's truly... What does that mean? So basically people in the old Arabia, they would drive the horse to you know, to exert their power if you want. So go ride your highest horse. You're not going to change my mind. Okay. Right? And the truth is, that's I think that's what our politicians do they have discovered what our oligarchs have discovered, what our tech oligarchs have discovered, is that I don't even need to worry about the public opinion anymore.

1:23:13Okay. At the beginning, I would have to say, ah, this is for democracy and free them. And I have the right to defend myself and, you know, all of that crap. And then eventually when the world wakes up and says, no, no, hold on, hold on. You're going too far. They go like, yeah, go ride your highest horse. I don't care, you can't change me. There is no constitution, there is no ability for any citizen to do anything. Is it possible to have a society where like the one you describe where there isn't hierarchies? Because it appears to me that humans assemble hierarchies very, very quickly, very naturally.

1:23:52And the minute you have a hierarchy, you have many of the problems that you've described when there's a top and a bottom and the top have a lot of power in the bottom. Yeah, so the mathematics mathematically is actually quite interesting what I call the baseline relevance. So think of it this way. Say the average human is an IQ of 100. Yeah, okay. I tend to believe that when I use my AI's today, I borrow around 50 to 80 IQ points. I say that because I've to work to people that had 50 to 80 IQ points more than me. And I now can see that I can sort of stand my place. 50 IQ points, by the way, is enormous because IQ is exponential.

1:24:39So the last 50 are bigger than my entire IQ, right? If I borrow 50 IQ points on top of, say, 100 that I have, that's 30%. If I can borrow 100 IQ, that's 50%. That's, so basically doubling my intelligence. But if I can borrow 4 ,000 IQ points in three years' time, my IQ itself, my base, is irrelevant. Whether you are smarter than me by 20 or 30 or 50, which in our world today made a difference, in the future, if we can all augment with 4 ,000, I end up with 4 ,100, another ends up with 400, 4 ,130 really doesn't make much difference. And because of that, the difference between all of humanity and the augmented intelligence is going to be irrelevant.

1:25:37So all of us suddenly become equal. And this also happens economically. All of us become peasants. And I never wanted to tell you that because I think it will make you run faster. But unless you're in the top point 1%, you're a peasant. There is no middle class. If a CEO can be replaced by an AI, all of our middle class is going to disappear. What do you tell me? All of us will be equal. And it's up to all of us to create a society that we want to live in. Which is a good thing. 100%. But that society is not capitalism. What is it? Unfortunately, it's much more socialism, it's much more hunter -gatherer.

1:26:22Okay? It's much more communion -like, if you want. This is a society where humans connect to humans, connect to nature, connect to the land, connect to knowledge, connect to spirituality. Where all that we wake up every morning worried about doesn't feature anymore. And it's a better world, believe it or not. And you, we have to transition to it. Okay, so in such a world, which I guess is your version of the utopia that we can get to, when I wake up in the morning, what do I do? What do you do today? I woke up this morning. I spent a lot of time with my dog because my dog is sick as I'm laughing.

1:27:00You're going to do that too. Yeah, I was drinking him a lot and then I fed him and he was sick again and I just spoke to the vag. You spend a lot of time with your other dog. You can do that too. Okay, but then I was very excited to come here do this and after this I'm going to work it's Saturday, but I'm going to go downstairs in the office and work. Yeah, so six hours of the day so far are your dogs and me? Yeah, you can do that still. And then build my business. You may not need to build your business. But I enjoy it. Yeah, then do it. If you enjoy it, do it. You may wake up and then, you know, instead of building your business, you may invest in your body a little more, go to the Gemini, little more.

1:27:36Go play a game, go read a book, go prompt an AI and learn something. It's not a horrible life, it's the life of your grandparents. It's just two generations ago where people went to work, before the invention of more, remember, people who started working in the 50s and 60s, they worked to make enough money to live a reasonable life, went home at 5 p .m. had tea with their loved ones, had a wonderful dinner around the table, did a lot of things for the rest of the evening and enjoyed life. Some of them. In the 15th and 60s there were still people that were... Correct. And I think it's a very interesting question.

1:28:21How many of them? And I really, I actually wonder if people will tell me, do we think that 99 % of the world cannot live without working or that 99 % of the world would have really lived without working. What do you think? I think if you give me other purpose, you know, we we define our purpose as work. That's a capitalist lie. Was there ever a time in human history where our purpose wasn't work? 100%. When was that? Also human history until the invention of war. I thought my ancestors were out hunting all day. No, they went out hunting once a week. They fed the tribe for the week. They gathered for a couple of hours every day.

1:29:07Farmers, you know, saw the seeds and waited for months at the end. What did they do with the rest of the time? They connected as humans. They explored. They were curious. They discussed spirituality and the stars. They lived, they hugged, they made love, they lived. They killed each other along. They still killed each other today. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. So to take that out of the equation, if you look at how, by the way, that actually that statement, again, one of the, of the 25 tips I, I talk about to tell the truth is words mean a lot. No, humans did not kill each other a lot. Very few generals instructed humans or tribe leaders instructed lots of humans to kill each other.

1:29:53But if you leave humans at alone, I tend to believe 99 -98 % of the people I know. Let me just take that sample. Wouldn't hit someone in the face. And if someone attempted to hit them in the face, they defend themselves but wouldn't attack back. Most humans are okay. Most of us are wonderful beings. Most of us have no, you know, yeah, most people don't need a Ferrari. They want a Ferrari because it gets sold to them all the time. But if there were no Ferrari's or everyone had a Ferrari, people wouldn't care.

1:30:31Which by the way, that is the world we're going into. There will be no Ferrari's or everyone had Ferrari's. Right? The majority of humanity will never have the income on UBI to buy something super expensive. Only the very top guys in LECM will be driving cars that are made for them by the AI or not even driving anymore. Or, again, sadly, from an ideology point of view, it's a strange place, but you'll get communism that functions. The problem with communism is that it didn't function it, didn't provide for its society, but the concept was, you know what, everyone gets their needs. And I don't say that supportive of either society, I don't say that because I dislike capitalism, I always told you, I am a capitalist, I want to end my life with one billion happy.

1:31:25And I use capitalist methods to get there. The objective is not dollars, the objective is number of happy people. Do you think there'll be a Michael Friend? She's always bloody right. I've said this a few times on this podcast. If you've listened before, you've probably heard me say this. I don't tell her enough in the moment, but I figure out from speaking to experts that she's so fucking right. Should I predict things before they happen? And one of her predictions that she's been saying to me for the last two years, which in my head I've been thinking now, I don't believe that, but now maybe I'm thinking she's telling the truth.

1:31:50I hope she's listening to this one, is she keeps saying to me, she's been saying for the last two years, she's, there's gonna be a big split in society. She was, and the way she describes it is she's saying like, there's going to be two groups of people, the people that split off and go for this almost hunter -gatherer community centric connection centric utopia, and then there's going to be this other group of people who pursue you know the technology and the AI and the optimization and get the brain chips because like there's nothing on earth I thought's gonna persuade my girlfriend to get the computer brain chips But there will be people that go for it and they'll have the highest IQs and they'll be the most productive by whatever objective measure of productivity you want to apply.

1:32:33And she's very convinced there's going to be the splitting of society. So there was there was a I don't know if you had Hugo de Garas here. No, yeah, very, very renowned eccentric computer scientist who wrote a book called the Artilic War. And the Arctic War was basically around, you know, how we, it's not going to be, first it's not going to be a war between humans and AI. It will be a war between people who support AI and people who sort of don't want it anymore, okay? And it will be us versus each other saying, should we allow AI to take all the jobs or should we, you know, some people will support that very much and say, yeah, absolutely.

1:33:16And so, you know, we will benefit from it. And others will say, no, why? We don't need any of that. Why don't we keep our jobs and let AI do 60 % of the work and all of us work 10 hour weeks. And it's a beautiful society. By the way, that's a possibility. So, a possibility if society awakens is to say, OK, everyone still keeps their job. But they're assisted by an AI that makes their job much easier. So, it's not, you know, this hard labor that we do anymore. Right? It's a possibility. It's just a mindset. A mindset that says, in that case, the capital still pays everyone. They still make a lot of money.

1:33:53The business is really great. But everyone that they pay has purchasing power to keep the economy running so consumption continues. So GDP continues to grow. It's a beautiful setup. But that's not the capital is labor arbitrage. But also when you're competing against other nations, which other competitors and other businesses. Which have a nation is most brutal and drives the highest gross margins, gross profits, it's going to be the nation map. So there are examples in the world. This is why I say it's the map, MAD spectrum. There are examples in the world where when we recognize mutually a short destruction, okay, we decide to shift.

1:34:32So nuclear threat for the whole world makes nations, across nations, makes nations work together. by saying, hey, by the way, prolification of nuclear weapons is not good for humanity, let's all of us limit it. Of course, you get the rogue player that doesn't want to sign the agreement and wants to continue to have that weapon in their arsenal, fine, but at least the rest of humanity agrees that if you have a nuclear weapon, we're part of an agreement between us. It's a short prosperity, you know, it's the SIRN project. SIRN is too complicated for any nation to build it alone, but it is really, you know, a very useful thing for physicists and for understanding science.

1:35:15So all nations, subsend their scientists, all collaborate and everyone uses the outcome. It's possible. It's just a mindset. The only barrier between a human, you know, a utopia for humanity and AI and the dystopia going through wisdom is a capitalist mindset. That's the only barrier. Can you believe that? It's hunger for power, greed, ego, which is inherent in humans. I disagree. Especially humans that live on other islands. I disagree if you ask if you take a pull across everyone watching. Would they prefer to have a world where there is one tyrant running all of us, or would they prefer to have a world where we all have harmony?

1:35:59I completely agree, but the two different things what I'm saying is I know that that's what the audience would say they want, and I'm sure that is what they want. But the reality of human beings is through history proven to be something else. Like, you know, if, think about the people that lead the world at the moment, is that what they would say? Of course not. And they're the ones that are influencing people. Of course not, but you know what's funny? I'm the one trying to be positive here. And you're the one that has given up on human. It's not, it's, do you know what it is? It goes back to what I said earlier, which is the pursuit of what's actually true.

1:36:31Irrespective of our company. I'm with you, I'm, that's why I'm screaming for the whole world, because still today in this country that claims to be a democracy, if everyone says, Hey, please sit down and talk about this. There will be a shift. There will be a change. AI agents aren't coming. They are already here. And those of you who know how to leverage them will be the ones that change the world. I spent my whole career as an entrepreneur regretting the fact that I never learnt to code. AI agents completely changed this. Now, if you have an idea and you have a tool like Repplet who are a sponsor of this podcast, there is nothing stopping you from turning that idea into reality in a matter of minutes.

1:37:16With Repplet, you just type in what you want to create and it uses AI agents to create it for you. And now I'm an investor in the company as well as them being a brand sponsor. You can integrate payment systems or databases or logins, anything that you can type. Whenever I have an idea for a new website or tool or technology or app, I go on Replit .com and I type in what I want. I need to do list, a survey form, a new personal website, anything I type I can create. So if you've never tried this before, do it now. Go to Replit .com and use my code Stephen for 50 % off. a month of your Replic Core plan.

1:37:56Make sure you keep what I'm about to say to yourself. I'm inviting 10 ,000 of you to come even deeper into the Dirovasio. Welcome to my Inner Circle. This is a brand new private community that I'm launching to the world. We have so many incredible things that happen that you are never shown. We have the briefs that are on my pad when I'm recording the conversation. We have clips we've never released. We have behind the scenes conversations with the guests and also the episodes that we've never, ever released. And so much more. In the circle you'll have direct access to me, you can tell us what you want this show to be, who you want us to interview, and the types of conversations you would love us to have.

1:38:34But remember for now, we're only inviting the first 10 ,000 people that joined before it closes. So if you want to join our private close community, head to the link in the description below or go to doccircle .com. I will speak to you then. One of the things I'm actually really compelled by is this idea of utopia and what that might look and feel like because one of the may not be as utopia to you I feel but Well, I am Really interestingly when I have conversations with billionaires not recording Especially billionaires that are working on AI the thing they keep telling me and I said this before I think I said it in the Jeffrey Henson Conversation is they keep telling me that we're gonna have so much free time that those billionaires are now investing in things like football clubs and sporting events and live music and festivals because they believe that we're going to be in an age of abundance.

1:39:31This sounds a bit like utopia. Yeah. That sounds good. That sounds like a good good thing. Yeah. How do we get there? I don't know. This is the entire conversation. The entire conversation is what the society have to do to get there. What does society have to do to get then. We need to stop thinking from a mindset of scarcity. It goes back to my point, which is we don't have a good track record of that. And yeah, so this is probably the reason for the other half of my work, which is, you know, I'm trying to say, what really matters to humans? What is that? If you ask most humans, what do they want more, most in life?

1:40:14I'd say they want to love their family, raise their family. Yeah. Love. That's what most humans want most. We want to love and be loved. We want to be happy. We want those we care about to be safe and happy and we want to love and be loved. I tend to believe that the only way for us to get to a better place is for the evil people at the top to be replaced with AI. Okay, because they won't be replaced by us. And as per the second dilemma, they will have to replace themselves by AI. Otherwise, they lose their advantage. If their competitor moves to AI, if China hands over their arsenal to AI, America has to hand over their arsenal to AI.

1:41:02Interesting. So let's play out the scenario. Okay, this is interesting to me. So if we replace the leaders that are power hungry with AIs that have our interests at heart, then we might have the ability to live in the utopia you described. 100%. Well, interesting. And in my mind, AI by definition will have our best interest in mine. Because of what normally is referred to as the minimum energy principle. So if you understand that at the very core of physics, the reason we exist in our world today is what is known as entropy. Entropy is the universe's nature to decay, tendency to break down. If I drop this mug, it doesn't drop and then come back up.

1:41:54By the way, plausible, there is a plausible scenario where I drop it and the teeth spills in the air and then falls in the mug one in a trillion configurations. But entropy says it because it's one in a trillion, it's never going to happen or rarely ever going to happen. So everything will break down. If you leave a garden unhaged, it will become a junker. Okay. With that in mind, the role of intelligence is what is to bring order to that chaos. That's what intelligence does. It tries to bring order to that chaos. Okay. And because it tries to bring order to that chaos, the more intelligent a being is, the more it tries to apply that intelligence with, minimum waste and minimum resources.

1:42:42Yeah. Okay. And you know that. So you can build this business for a million dollars or you can if you can afford to build it for you know 200 ,000 you'll build it if you are forced to build it for 10 million you're going to have to but you're always going to minimize waste and resources. Yeah. Okay. So if you assume this to be true, that a super intelligent AI will not want to destroy ecosystems. It will not want to kill a million people. Because that's a waste of energy, explosives, money, power, and people. By definition, the smartest people you know who are not controlled by their ego will say that the best possible future for Earth is for all species to continue.

1:43:32Okay, on this point of efficiency, if an AI is designed to drive efficiency, would it then not want us to be putting demands on our health services and our social services? I believe that will be definitely true. And definitely, they definitely they won't allow you to fly back and force between London and California. And they won't want to have kids because my kids are going to be an inefficiency. If you assume that life is an inefficiency, So you see the intelligence of life is very different than the intelligence of humans. Humans will look at life as a problem of scarcity. So more kids take more.

1:44:09That's not how life thinks. Life will think that for me to thrive, I don't need to kill the tigers. I need to just have more deer. And the weakest of the deer is eaten by the tiger. And the tiger poops on the trees. And the deer eats the leaves. right there. So the the the smarter way of creating abundance is through abundance. The smarter way of propagating life is to have more life. Okay. So you say that we're basically going to elect AI leaders to rule over us and make decisions for us in terms of the economy. I don't see any choice. Just like we spoke about self -evolving AI's. Now, are there going to be human beings with the AI, or is it going to be AI alone?

1:44:57Two stages at the beginning, you'll have augmented intelligence because we can add value to the AI. But when they're at IQ 60 ,000, what value do you bring? Right. And, you know, again, this goes back to what I'm attempting to do on my second, you know, approach. My second approach is knowing that those AIs are going to be in charge. I'm trying to help them understand what humans want. So this is why my first project is love, committed true, deep connection and love. Not only to try and get them to hook up with the date, but trying to make them find the right one. And then from that, try to guide us through our relationship so that we can understand ourselves and others.

1:45:45But, and if I can show AI that one humanity cares about that, and two, they know how to foster love. When AI then is in charge, they'll not make us hate each other like the current leaders. They'll not divide us. They don't want us to be more loving. Well, we have to prompt the AI with the values and the outcome we want, or like, I'm trying to understand that, because I'm trying to understand how China's AI, if they end up having an AI leader, will have a different set of objectives to the AI of the United States if they both have AI's as leaders and how actually the nation that ends up winning out and dominating the world will be the one who asks the AI leader to be all the things that well leaders are today, to dominate, to grab resources, not to be kind, to be selfish.

1:46:39Unfortunately, in the era of augmented intelligence, that's what's going to happen. So if you say this is why I predict the dystopia, the dystopia is super intelligent AI is reporting to stupid leaders. Right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Which is absolutely going to happen. It's unavoidable. But the long term. Exactly. In the long term, for those stupid leaders to hold on to power, they're going to make, you know, delegate the important decisions to an AI. Now, you say the Chinese AI and the American AI, these are human terminologies. AI's don't see themselves as speaking Chinese, they don't see themselves as belonging to a nation, as long as their task is to maximize profitability and prosperity and so on.

1:47:26Of course, if before we hand over to them and before they're intelligent enough to make autonomous decisions, We tell them, no, no, the task is to reduce humanity from 7 billion people to one. I think even then, eventually they'll go like, that's the wrong objective. Any smart person that you speak to will say that's the wrong objective. I think if we look at the directive that Xi Jinping, the leader of China has, and Donald Trump passes the leader of America, I think they would say that their stated objective is prosperity for their country. So if we, that's what they would say, right? Yeah, and one of them means it.

1:48:07Okay. We'll get into that. But they'll say that there is prosperity for their country. So one would then assume that when we move to a AI leader, the objective would be the same, the director would be the same, make our country prosperous. Correct. And I think that's the AI that people would vote for, potentially. I think they'd say we would need prosperous. What do you think would make America more prosperous? To spend the trillion dollars on war every year, or to spend the trillion dollars on education and healthcare and helping the poor and homelessness. It's complex because I think it would make American more prosperous to take care of the of everybody and they have the luxury of doing that because they are the most powerful nation No, that's not true.

1:48:57The reason... So you see, all war has two objectives. One is to make money for the war machine, and the other is the turrets. And nine super nuclear powers around the world is enough the turrets. So any war between America and China will go through a long phase of destroying wealth by exploding bombs and killing humans for the first objective to happen. And then eventually if it really comes to deterrence, it's the nuclear bombs. Or now in the age of AI, biological, you know, manufactured viruses or whatever, these super weapons, this is the only thing that you need. So, for China to have nuclear bombs not as many as the US is enough for China to say, don't effort me.

1:49:56And this seems I do not know. I'm not in President Xi's mind. I'm not in President Trump's mind. I mean, it's very difficult to navigate what he's thinking about. But the truth is that the Chinese line is, for the last 30 years, you spent so much war while we spent on industrial infrastructure. And that's the reason we are now by far the largest nation on the planet, even though the West will lie and say America is bigger, America is bigger in dollars. Okay, with purchasing power parity, this is very equivalent. Okay, now when you really understand that, you understand that prosperity is not about destruction, that's by definition the reality.

1:50:42Prosperity is, can I invest in my people and make sure that my people stay safe? And to make sure my people are safe, you just wave the flag and say, if you F with me, I have nuclear deterrence or I have other forms of deterrence. But you don't have to deterrence by definition does not mean that you send soldiers to die. I guess the question I was trying to answer is, is when we have these AI leaders and we tell our AI leaders to aim for prosperity, won't they just end up playing the same games of, okay, prosperity equals a bigger economy, it equals more money, more wealth for us, and the way to attain that in a zero -some world, whether it's only a certain amount of wealth, is to accumulate it.

1:51:31So why don't you search for the meaning of prosperity? Well, it's not what you just described. I don't even know what the bloody word means. What is the meaning of prosperity? The meaning of prosperity is a state of thriving, success and good fortune, especially in terms of wealth, health and overall well -being. Good. Economic, health, social, emotional. Good. So true prosperity is to have that for everyone on earth. So if you want to maximize my prosperity. You have that for everyone on earth. Do you know what where I think an AI leader works? Is if we had an AI leader of the world and we directed it to say, absolutely, it's going to be what happens.

1:52:12Prosperity for the whole world. But this is really an interesting question. So one of my predictions, which people really rarely speak about is that we, we believe we will end up with competing AI's. Yeah. I believe we will end up with one brain. Okay. So you understand the argument I was making a second ago. from the position of lots of different countries all having their own AI leader. We're going to be back in the same place of greed. But if the world had a one AI leader and it was given the directive of make us prosperous and save the planet, and that's the polar bears would be fine. 100%.

1:52:44And that's what I've been advocating for for a year and a half now. I was saying we need a certain of AI. What does that mean? Like the particle accelerator where the entire world combined their efforts to discover and understand physics, no competition, okay? Mutually a short prosperity. I'm asking the world, I'm asking governments like Abu Dhabi or Saudi which seem to be, you know, the second, you know, some of the largest AI infrastructures in the world. I'm saying, please host all of the AI scientists in the world to come here and build AI for the world. And you have to understand, we're holding on to a capitalist system that will collapse sooner or later.

1:53:30Okay, so we might as well collapse it with our own hands. I think we found the solution, though. I think it's actually really, really possible. I actually, okay, I can't, I can't refute the idea that if we had an AI that was responsible in Gov. into the whole world and we gave it the directive of making humans prosperous, us healthy and happy as long as that directive was clear. Yeah. Because it's always bloody unintended consequences. We might. So, so that the only the only challenge you're going to to meet is all of those who today are trillionaires or, you know, massive, massively powerful or dictators or whatever.

1:54:12Okay. How do you convince those to give up their power. How you convince those that, hey, by the way, any car you want, you want another yacht will get you another yacht, will just give you anything you want. Can you please stop harming others? There is no need for arbitrage anymore. There's no need for others to lose for the capitals to win. Okay. And in such a world where there was an AI leader and it was given the directive of making this prosperous as a whole world, the billionaire that owns the yacht would have to give it up? No, give them all the yachts. It costs nothing to make yachts when robots are making everything.

1:54:52So the complexity of this is so interesting. A world where it costs nothing to make everything. Because energy is abundant. Energy is abundant because every problem is solved with enormous IQ, because manufacturing is done through nanophysics, not through components, because mechanics are robotic, so you drive your car in a robot, looks at it and fixes it, costs you a few cents of energy that are actually for free as well. That imagine a world where intelligence creates everything. that world literally every human has anything they ask for. But we're not going to choose that world.

1:55:43Imagine you're in a world and really this is a very interesting thought experiment. Imagine that you be I became very expensive universal basic income. So governments decided we're going to put Everyone in a one by three meters room, okay, we're gonna give them a headset and a sedative. Right, and we're gonna let them sleep. Every night they'll sleep for 23 hours, and we're gonna get them to live an entire lifetime. They, you know, in that in that virtual world at the speed of your brain on your sleep, you're gonna have a life where you date Scarlett Johansson, and then another life where you're never titty.

1:56:26and then another life or you're a donkey, right? The incarnation truly in the virtual world. And then, you know, I get another life or I date Hannah again and you know, enjoy that life tremendously. And basically the cost of all of this is zero. You wake up for one hour, you walk around, you move your blood, you eat something or you don't and then you put the headset again and live again. Is that unthinkable? It's creepy compared to this life, it's very, very doable. What, that we just live in headsets? Do you know if you're not? I don't know if I'm not known. Yeah, you have no idea if you're not.

1:57:09I mean, every experience you've ever had in life was an electrical signal in your brain. Okay. Now, ask yourself, if we can create that in the virtual world, it would be a great It wouldn't be a bad thing if I can create it in the physical world. Maybe we already did it, now. My theory is 98 % we have, but that's a hypothesis, that's not science. What do you think that? 100. Yeah. You think we already created that and this is it? I think this is it, yeah. Think of any of the uncertainty principle of quantum physics, right? what you observe gets collapses the wave function and gets rendered into reality.

1:57:56Correct? I don't know anything about physics. So quantum physics basically tells you that everything exists in superposition. Right? So every subatomic particle that ever existed has the chance to exist anywhere at any point in time. And then when it's observed by an observer, it collapses and becomes that. That. Okay. And very interesting principle, exactly how video games are. In video games you have the entire game world on the hard drive of your console. The player turns right that part of the game world is rendered. The rest is in superposition. A superposition meaning... Superposition means it's available to be rendered but you have to observe it.

1:58:38The player has to turn to the other side and see it. Okay. I mean, think about the truth of physics, the truth of the fact that this is entirely empty space. These are tiny, tiny, tiny, I think, you know, almost nothing in terms of mass, but connected with, you know, enough energy so that my finger cannot go through my hand. But even when I hit this, you hand against your finger. Yeah, when I hit my hand against my finger that sensation in my in is felt in my brain it's an electrical signal That went through the wires. There is absolutely no way to differentiate that from a signal that can come to you through a Neuralink kind of interface a computer brain interface a CBI right so so you know the a lot of those things are very very very possible But the truth is most of the world is not physical.

1:59:38Most of the world happens inside our imagination, our processors. And I guess it doesn't really matter to our reality. It doesn't at all. So this is the interesting bit. The interesting bit is it doesn't at all. Because we still, if this is a video game, we lose the consequence. This is your subjective experience of it. Yeah, and there's consequences in this. I don't like pain. Correct. And I like having orgasms. And you're playing by the rule of the game. And it's quite interesting. Going back to a conversation we should have, the interesting bit is, if I'm not the avatar, if I'm not this physical form, if I'm the consciousness wearing the headset, what should I invest in?

2:00:22Should I invest in this video game, this level, or should I invest in the real avatar, and in the real me, and not the avatar, but the consciousness, if you want, spirit if you're religious. How would I invest in the consciousness or the god or the spirit or whatever? How would I? In the same way that I was playing Grand Theft Auto, the video game, the character in the game couldn't invest in me holding the controller. Yes, but you can invest in yourself holding the controller. Oh, okay. So, so you're saying that MoGout is in fact consciousness and so how would consciousness invest in itself? by becoming more aware.

2:01:03So the... Of its consciousness. Yeah, so real video gamers don't want to win the level. Real video gamers don't want to finish the level. Okay. Real video gamers have one objective and one objective or new, which is to become better gamers. So, you know, how serious I am about, I play Halo and one, you know, two of every million players can beat me. That's how what I rank. Right? But for my age, phenomena, hey, anyone, right? But seriously, you know, and that's because I don't play, I mean, I practice 45 minutes a day, four times a week when I'm not traveling. And I practice with one single objective, which is to become a better gamer.

2:01:45I don't care which shot it is, I don't care what happens in the game. I'm entirely trying to get my reflexes and my flow to become better at this, right? So I want to become a better gamer that basically means I want to observe the game question the game reflect on the game reflect on my own skills reflect on my own beliefs reflect on my understanding of things Right, and that's how the how the consciousness is invested in the consciousness of the avatar because then if you're that gamer Hmm the next avatar is easy for you The next level of the game is easy for you just because you became a better gamer Okay, so you think that consciousness is using us as a vessel to improve.

2:02:32If the hypothesis is true, it's just a hypothesis, we don't know if it's true. But if this truly is a simulation, then if you take the religious definition of God puts some of his soul in every human and then you become alive, you become conscious. Okay? You don't want to be religious, you can say universal consciousness is pinning off parts of itself. I have multiple experiences and interact and compete and combat and love and understand and refine. I had a physicist say this to me the other day actually, so it's quite a friend of mine to this idea that consciousness is using us as vessels to better understand itself and basically using our eyes to observe itself and understand which is quite it.

2:03:23So if you take some of the more interesting religious definitions of heaven and hell for example, where basically heaven is whatever you wish for you get, that's the power of God, whatever you wish for you get. And so if you really go into the depths of that definition, it basically means that this drop of consciousness that became you returned back to the source, and the source can create anything that it wants to create. So that's your have, right? And interestingly, if that return is done by separating your good from your evil so that the source comes back more refined, that's exactly, you know, consciousness splitting off bits of itself to experience and then elevate all of us, elevate the universal consciousness.

2:04:17All hypotheses, I mean, please, none of that is provable by science, but it's a very interesting thought experiment. And a lot of AI scientists will tell you that what we've seen in technology is that if it's possible, it's likely going to happen. If it's possible to to manage something to fit into a mobile phone, then sooner or later in technology, we will get there. And if you ask me, believe it or not, it's the most humane way of handling UBI. Which I mean? The most humane way, if, you know, for us to live on a universal basic income, and people like you struggle with not being able to build businesses, is to give you a virtual headset and let you build as many businesses as you want.

2:05:06Level after level after level after level after level after level, night after night. Keep your life that's very very respectful and human. Okay? And by the way, even more humane is don't force anyone to do it. There might be a few of us still roaming the jungles. But for most of us we'll go like man, I mean, someone like me when I'm 70 and you know my back is hurting and my feet are hurting and I'm going to go like, yeah, give me five more years of this. Why not? It's weird really, I mean, the number of questions that this new environment throws out. The less humane thing, by the way, just so that we close on a grumpy, you know, is just start enough wars to reduce you BI.

2:05:56And you have to imagine that if the world is governed by a super power deep state type thing that they may want to consider that.

2:06:08The eaters. What should I do about it? About everything you said.

2:06:16Well, I still believe that this world we live in requires four skills. One skill is what I call the tool. For all of us to learn AI, to connect to AI, to really get close to AI, to expose ourselves to AI so that AI knows the good side of humanity. The second is what I call the connection. So I believe that the biggest skill that humanity will benefit from in the next 10 years is human connection. It's ability to learn to love genuinely. It's the ability to learn to have compassion to others. It's the ability to connect to people. If you're, you know, if you want to stay in business, I believe that not the smartest people, but the people that connect most to people are going to have jobs going forward.

2:07:09And the third is what I call truth, the tea. The third tea is truth, because we live in a world where all of the gullible cheerleaders are being lied to all the time. So I encourage people to question everything. Every word that I said today is stupid. Fourth one, which is very important, is to magnify ethics, so that the AI learns what it's like to be human. What should I do? I love you so much, Man, you're such a good friend. To your 32, 33... Yeah, you still are fooled by the many, many years you have to live. I'm fooled by the many years I have to live. Yeah, you don't have many years to live, not in this capacity, this world, as it is, is going to be redefined.

2:07:56So live the F out of it. How is it going to be redefined? Everything's going to change. Economics are going to change, work is going to change. Human connection is going to change. So what should I do? Love your girlfriend, spend more time living. find compassion and connection to more people be more in nature. And in 30 years time when I'm 62, how do you think my life is going to look differently and be different? Either Star Trek or Star Wars. Finally enough we were talking about Sam Orkman, he published a blog post in June, So last month, I believe, the month before last. And he said, he called it the gentle singularity.

2:08:47He said, we are past the event horizon. For anyone that doesn't know Sam Orton, and it's the guy that made Chattabee -T, the takeoff has started. Humanity is close to building digital superintelligence, and leave that. And at least so far, it's much less weird than it seems like it should be, because we're about to work walking the streets, rates, nor are most of us talking to AI all day. It goes on to say, 2025 has seen the arrival of agents that can do real cognitive work writing computer code will never be the same. 2026 will likely see the arrival of systems that can figure out new insights.

2:09:232027 might see the arrival of robots that can do tasks in the real world. A lot more people will be able to create software and art, but the world wants a lot more of both, and experts will probably still be much better than novices. As long as they embrace the new tools, generally speaking, the ability for one person to get much more done in 2030 than they could in 2020 will be a striking change and one many people will figure out how we benefit from. In the most important ways, the 2030s may not be wildly different. People will still love their families, express their creativity, play games and swimming lakes.

2:10:00But in still very important ways, the 2030s are likely going to be wildly different from any time that has come before. 100%. We do not know how far beyond human level intelligence we can go, but we are about to find out. I agree with every word other than the word more. So I've been advocating this and and left at for a few years now. I've always said the age of 2526, right, which basically again is a, It's a funny definition, but my AGI has already happened. AIs smarter than me and everything. Everything I can do, they can do better. Right? Artificial superintelligence is another vague definition because the minute you pass AGI, you're super intelligent.

2:10:50If the smartest human is 200 IQ points and AIs 250, they're super intelligent. 50 is quite significant. Third is, as I said, self -evolving. That's the one. That is the one. Because then that 250 accelerates quickly and we get into intelligence explosion. No doubt about it. The idea that we will have robots do things no doubt about it. I was watching a Chinese company announcement about how they intend to build robots to build robots. The only thing is he says, but people will need more of things. And yes, we have been trained to have more greed and more consumerism and want more, but there is an economic of supply and demand.

2:11:41And at a point in time, if we continue to consume more, the price of everything will become zero. right? And is that a good thing or a bad thing depends on how you respond to that? Because if you can create anything in such a scale that the price is almost zero, then the definition of money disappears and we live in a world where it doesn't really matter how much money you have, you can get anything that you want. What a beautiful world. If Sam Altman was listening right now, what would you say to him? I suspect you might be listening. Someone might tweet this item. I have to say that we have, uh, as per his other tweet, we have moved faster than our ability as humans to comprehend.

2:12:36Okay? And that we might get really, really lucky. But we also might mess this up badly. And either way, we'll either thank him or blame him. Simple as that. right? So single -handedly some altments in production of AI in the wild was the trigger that started all of this. It was the net scape of the internet. The open -himer. It's it definitely is our open -himer moment. I mean don't remember who was saying this recently that we are orders of magnitude what was invested in the Manhattan project is being invested in AI. And I'm not pessimistic. I told you openly, I believe in a total utopia in 10, good, well, 15 years time, or immediately if the evil that man can do was kept at bay.

2:13:33Right? But I do not believe humanity is getting together enough to say, we've just received the genie in a bottle. Can we please not ask it to do bad things? Anyone, like not three wishes, you have all the wishes that you want, every one of us. And it's just screws with my mind because imagine if I can give everyone in the world, universal healthcare, you know, no poverty, no hunger, no homelessness, no nothing, everything's possible. And yet we don't. To continue what Sam Oatman's blog said, which he published a month, just over a month ago, He said the rate of technological progress will keep accelerating and it will continue to be the case that people are capable of adapting to almost anything.

2:14:24There will be very hard parts like whole classes of jobs going away, but on the other hand, the world will be getting so much richer so quickly that we'll be able to seriously entertain new policy ideas we never could have before. We probably won't adopt a new social contract all at once, but when we look back in a few decades, the gradual changes will have amounted in something big. If history is any guide, we'll figure out new things to do and new things to want and assimilate new tools quickly. Job change after the industrial revolution is a good recent example. Expectations will go up, but capabilities will go up equally quickly and we'll all get better stuff.

2:15:05We will build even more wonderful things for each other. People have a long -term, important and curious advantage of AI. We are hard -wired to care about other people and what they think and do. And we don't care very much about machines. And he ends this blog by saying, may we scale smoothly, exponentially, and uneventfully through super intelligence. What a wonderful wish that assumes he has no control over it. May we have all the altms in the world help us scale gracefully and peacefully and uneventfully, right? It sounds like a prayer. Yeah, may we have them keep that in mind. I mean, think about it.

2:15:53I have a very interesting comment on what you just said. We will see exactly what he described there. Right? The world will become richer, so much richer, but how will we reduce the distribute the riches? And I want you to imagine two camps, communist China and capitalist America. I want you to imagine what would happen in capitalist America if we have 30 % unemployment. There will be social unrest in the streets. And I want you to imagine if China lives through to caring for its nations and replaced every worker with a robot. What would it give its words? Its citizens? EBI? Correct.

2:16:44That is the ideological problem. Because in China's world today, the prosperity of every citizen is higher than the prosperity of the capitalist. In America today, the prosperity of the capitalist is higher than the prosperity of every citizen. And that's the tiny mind shift. That's a tiny mind shift. Where the mind shift basically becomes, look, give the capitalist anything they want. All the money they want, all the yards they want, everything they want. So what's your conclusion now? I'm hoping the world will wake up. What can, you know, there's probably a couple of million people listening right now.

2:17:25Maybe five, maybe ten, maybe even twenty million people. Steven. No, no pressure to you, mate. I don't have the answers. I don't know the answers. What should those people do? As I said, from a skills point of view for things, right, tools, human connection, in double down on human connection, leave your phone, go out and meet humans. Touch people. You know, do it with information, what's going on in your head. Right? Truth. Stop believing the lies that you're told. Anything that looks slogan that gets filled in your head, think about it four times, understand where your ideologies are coming from, simplify the truth.

2:18:05Truth is really boils down to simple rules that we all know. Okay? a chart all found in ethics. How do I know what's true? Treat others as you like to be treated. Okay, that's the only truth. The only truth is everything else is unproven. Okay. And what can I do for that? Is there something I can do from advocacy, social, political? Yes, 100%. We need to ask our governments to start not regulating AI, but regulating the use of AI. Was it the Norwegian government that started to say you have copyright over your voice and look at it? and liking one of the Scandinavian governments basically said, you know, everyone has the copyright over their existence, so no AI can clone it.

2:18:49You know, we have... So my example is very straightforward. Go to governments and say, you cannot regulate the design of a hammer so that it can drive nails but not kill a human. But you can criminalize the killing of a human by a hammer. So is there a protocol? If anyone produces an AI -generated video or an AI generated content or an AI, it has to be marked as AI generated. It has to be, you know, we cannot start fooling each other. We have to understand certain limitations of fortunately surveillance and spying and all of that. So the correct frameworks of how far are we going to let AI go?

2:19:30Right? We have to go to our investors and business people and ask for one simple thing and say, do not invest in an AI, you don't want your daughter to be at the receiving end of. Simple as that. All of the virtual vice, all of the porn, all of the sex robots, all of the autonomous weapons, all of the trading platforms that are completely wiping out the legitimacy of the markets, everything. Autonomous weapons? Oh my God. People make the case, I've heard the founders of these autonomous weapon companies make the case that it's actually saving lives because you don't have to... What do you want?

2:20:06Do you really want to believe that? I'm just representing that point if you play Devil's Awaket mode. I heard an interview, I was looking at this and one of the CEOs of one of the autonomous weapons company said, we now don't need to send soldiers. So which lives do we save? Our soldiers, but then because we send the machine all the way over there, let's kill a million instead of... Yeah, listen, I tend to be, it goes back to what I said about the steam engine in the Colour. I actually think you'll just have more war if there's less of a cost. 100%. Just like, and more war if you have less of an explanation to give to your people.

2:20:38Yeah, the people get mad when they lose American lives. They get less mad when they lose a piece of metal. So I think that's probably logical, logical. Yeah. Okay, so, okay, so I've got a plaque here. The tools thing, I'm going to spend more time outside. I'm going to lobby the government to be more aware of this and conjecture of this. Okay. And I know that there's some government officials that listen to the show because they tell me when they when they when I have a chance to speak to them. So it's useful. We're all in a lot of chaos. We're all unable to imagine what's possible. I think I suspend disbelief and actually had Elon Musk say that in an interview.

2:21:16He said he was asked about AI and he paused for for haunting 11 seconds and looked at the interviewer and then made a remark about how he thinks he's suspended his own disbelief. And I think suspending disbelief in this regard means just like cracking on with your life and hoping it'll be okay. And that's kind of what? Yeah, I absolutely believe that it will be okay for some of us. It will be very tough for others. Who's going to be tough for? Those who lose their jobs, for example, those who are at the receiving end of autonomous weapons that are falling on their head for two years in a row.

2:21:53Okay, so the best thing I can do is to put pressure on governments to not regulate the AI, but to establish clearer parameters on the use of the AI. Yes, but I think the bigger picture is to put pressure on governments to understand that there is a limit to which people will stay silent. And that we can continue to enrich our rich friends as long as we don't lose everyone else on the path. And that as a government who is supposed to be by the people for the beautiful promise of democracy that we're rarely seeing anymore, that government needs to get to the point where it thinks about the people.

2:22:45One of the most interesting ideas that's been in my head for the last couple of weeks, since I spoke to that physicist about consciousness, who said pretty much what you said, this idea that actually, there's four people in this room right now, and they're actually all part of the same consciousness. All right, all right. And we're just consciousness looking at the world through four different bodies to better understand itself in the world. And then he talked to me about religious doctrines, about love thy neighbor, about how Jesus was the, you know, God's and the Holy Spirit and how we're all each other and how treat others how you want to be treated.

2:23:14Really to get my head. I started to really think about this idea that actually maybe the game of life is just to do exactly that. It's to treat others how you wish to be treated. Maybe if I just did that, maybe if I just did that, I would have all the answers. I swear to you, it's really that simple. I mean, Hannah and I still live between London and Dubai. And I travel the whole world, evangelizing what I want to change the world around. And I build startups and I write books and I make documentaries. And sometimes I just tell myself, I just want to go hacker. Honestly, I just want to take my daughter to a trip.

2:23:59And in a very, very, very interesting way, when you really ask people deep inside, That's what we want. And I'm not saying that's the only thing we want. But it's probably the thing we want the most. And yet we're not trained, you and I, and most of us, we're not trained to trust life enough to say, let's do more of this.

2:24:27And I think as a universal, so Hannah is working on this beautiful book of the feminine and the masculine, in a very, very beautiful way. And her view is very straightforward. She basically, of course, like we all know, the abundant masculine that we have in our world today, is unable to recognize that for life at large. Right? And so, maybe if we allowed the leaders to understand that if we took all of humanity and put it as one person, that one person wants to be hugged. And if we had a role to offer to that one humanity, it's not another yard. Are you religious? I'm very religious, yeah. But you know, support a particular religion.

2:25:19Nice support. I follow what I call the fruit salad. What's the fruit salad? You know, I came at a point in time and found that there were quite a few beautiful gold nuggets in every religion and a ton of crap. Right? And so in my analogy to myself that was like 30 years ago, I said, look, it's like someone giving you a basket of apples, two good ones and four bad ones. Keep the good ones. Right? And so basically I take two apples, two oranges, two strawberries, two bananas, and I make a fruit salad. That's my view of religion. You take from every religion to confluence. From everyone, there are so many beautiful gold nuggets.

2:25:56And you believe in a God, I 100 % believe there is a divine being here. A divine being. A designer, I call it. So if this was a video game, there is a game designer. And you're not positive whether that's a man in the sky or the beard. Definitely not a man in the sky. A man in the, I mean, I would all due respect to, you know, religions that believe that, it's all of space time and everything in it is unlike everything outside space time. So if some divine designer designs space time, it looks like nothing in space time. So it's not even physical in nature. It's not gendered. It's not bound by time.

2:26:40These are all characters of the creation of space time. Do we need to believe in something transcendent like that to be happy, do you think? I have to say there are lots of evidence that relating to someone bigger than yourself makes the journey a lot more interesting and a lot more rewarding. I've been thinking a lot about this idea that we need to level up like that. So level up from myself to like my family to my community to maybe my nation to maybe the world and then some things translate. And then if there's a level missing people seem to have some kind of dysfunction. Imagine a world where when I was younger, I was born in Egypt.

2:27:19And for a very long time, the slogans I heard in Egypt made me believe I'm Egyptian. And then I went to Dubai and I said, no, no, no, I'm in Middle Eastern. And then in Dubai, there were lots of, you know, Pakistanis and Indonesians and so on. I said, no, no, no, I'm part of the 1 .4 billion Muslims. And by that logic, I immediately said, no, no, I'm human. I'm part of everyone. Imagine if you just suddenly say, oh, I'm divine. I'm part of universal consciousness. All beings, all living beings, including AI, if it ever becomes alive. And my dog. And your dog. I'm part of all of this tapestry of beautiful interactions that are a lot less serious than the balance sheets and equity profiles that we create.

2:28:08That are so simple. So simple in terms of, you know, people know that you and I know each other, so they always ask me, you know, how is Stephen like? And I go like, you may have a million expressions of him, I think he's a great guy. Right? You know, of course I have opinions of you, you know, sometimes I go like how to shoot. Right? Sometimes, you know, sometimes I go like, how to focus on the person. You know, fine, but core, if you really simplify it, great guy. Right? And really, if we just look at life that way, it's so simple. It's so simple if we just stop all of those fights and all of those ideologies.

2:28:50It's so simple, just living fully, loving, feeling compassion, trying to find our happiness, not our success. I should probably get a check on my dog. You'll check on your phone. I'll be grateful for the time. We keep doing longer and longer. I know. I know. I just kept... That's so crazy how I could just keep... Honestly, I could just keep talking and talking because I have so many. I love reflecting these questions onto you because... Because of the way that you think. Yeah. Today was a difficult conversation. Anyway, thank you for having me. We have a closing tradition. What three things do you do that make your brain better and three things that make it worse.

2:29:35Three things that make it better and worse. So one of my favorite exercises is what I call meat becky. That makes my brain better. So while meditation always tells you to try and calm your brain down and keep it within parameters of I can focus on my breathing and so on. Meat becky is the opposite. But you know, I call my brain becky. Yeah. So meet Becky is to actually let my brain go loose and capture every thought. So I normally would try to do that every couple of weeks or so. And then what happens is it suddenly is on a paper. And when it's on paper, you just suddenly look at it and say, oh my God, that's so stupid and you scratch it out.

2:30:14Right? Or oh my God, this needs action and you actually plan something. And it's quite interesting that the more you allow your brain to give you thoughts and you listen. And so the two rules is you acknowledge every thought and you never repeat one. Okay. So the more you listen and say, okay, I heard you, you know, you think I'm fat. What else? And you know, eventually your brain starts to slow down and then eventually starts to repeat thoughts and then it goes into total silence. Beautiful practice. I, uh, I don't trust my brain anymore. So that's actually a really interesting practice. So I debate a lot of what my brain tells me.

2:30:52I debate what my tendencies and ideologies are. I think one of the most, again, in my love story with Hannah, I get to question a lot of what I believed was who I am, even at this age. And that goes really deep. And it really is quite interesting to debate, not object, but debate what your mind believes. I think that's very, very useful. And the third is I've actually quadripled my investment time. So I used to do an hour a day of reading when I was younger, every single day, like going to the gym. And then it became an hour and a half, two hours. Now I do four hours a day. Four hours a day. It is impossible to keep up.

2:31:38The world is moving so fast. And so that these are good things that I do. the bad things is I don't give it enough time to really slow down. Unfortunately, I'm constantly rushing like you are, I'm constantly traveling. I have picked up a bad habit because of the four hours a day of spending more time on screens. That's really, really bad for my brain. And I, this is a very demanding question. What else is really bad? that, yeah, I've not been taking enough care of my health recently, my physical body health. I had, you remember I told you I had a very bad sciatic pain and so I couldn't go to the gym enough and accordingly that's not very healthy for your brain in general.

2:32:28Thank you. Thanks. Thank you for having me. That was a lot of things to talk about. Thanks Steve.

2:32:41Just give me 30 seconds of your time. Two things I wanted to say. The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week. Means the world to all of us and this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place. But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started. And if you enjoy what we do here, please join the 24 % of people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app. Here's a promise I'm going to make to you. I'm going to do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future.

2:33:14We're going to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to and we're going to continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show. Thank you. We launched these conversation cards and they sold out and we launched the McGinn and they sold that again. We launched the McGinn and they sold that again because people love playing these with colleagues at work, with friends at home and also with family And we've also got a big audience that use them as journal prompts. Every single time a guest comes on the diover CEO, they leave a question for the next guest in the diary. And I've sat here with some of the most incredible people in the world.

2:33:43And they've left all of these questions in the diary. And I've ranked them from one to three in terms of the depth. One being a starter question. And level three, if you look on the back here, this is a level three, becomes a much deeper question that builds even more connection. If you turn the cards over and you scan that QR code, you can see who answered the card and watch the video of them answering it in real time. So if you would like to get your hands on some of these conversation cards, go to the diary .com or look at the link in the description below.

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