Former First Lady (Michelle Obama): This Is A Scam! People Were Running From Us Because We Were Black! I Was Bitter About The Racism I Received!

29:14And, and, and a lot of stuff happened in that year besides me just joined, uh, Siddly and Austin in that period of time. We lost our father. Um, he died very suddenly. Um, uh, um, one of my best friends from, from college, Suzanne, um, died of lymphoma and it was sudden. She was diagnosed in December and she died in May. Really the first time in my life were people that weren't expected to die, died, you know, we had lost grandparents and great grandparents and, and I, I was really having kind of an existential crisis sitting on the 47th floor of my, in my beautiful office with a secretary and a sob in the garage thinking why me, why am I here rather than Suzanne?

30:08Because she was, that friend was also the dreamer, the person who wasn't box checking. She went to Princeton, but she traveled the world. She didn't go to business school right away. And I always thought, you got to get your life together. You've got to be on a path. And I thought, thank God she didn't do that because she didn't know she was going to die. But instead of sitting in some office building, she was living life and trying on new things that I realized I hadn't done that for myself. Uh, all I was doing was following a game plan. I wasn't trying to figure out my purpose. And at the same time I met Barack Obama.

30:49He showed up in my life as the opposite of a box checker, but somebody I describe in, in my book as an ultimate swarver. He did nothing by the book, but he was brilliant and interesting. You know, he didn't go to law school right away. He worked as a community organizer. He lived in different parts of the world. He was really trying to unpack life in a way that people in my generation weren't trying to do. You were just, you know, I was, I was with the black bourgeois, right? And people were buying their homes and getting their cars together and trying to make partner at a firm. There was a very finite path.

31:31And I hadn't explored anything else but that. And I thought I, I have to do something more before I settle on this. And I think Barack helped give me the courage, you know, he was the person in my ear that said, well, why would you want to just stop here and settle on this career when there's so much out there that you haven't tried, right? You can do this. And I was like, but I'm, I'm loaded down with debt. And right around that time, we knew we were going to be together. We knew we were going to be engaged. And he was like, we'll get, we'll figure that out. He was like, don't, don't settle on becoming a partner at a law firm because of money.

32:13You know, it's like, you need to see the world in a different way. And we'll figure this out together. And so I started swarvin. I started trying other things in life and never looked back. Craig, when was the first time you heard that your little sister had met a guy called Mr. Obama? Well, she called, called me up and said, hey, I met a guy I want to bring him by. And my mom, my dad and I were sitting on our front porch. And she pulls up in her nice, soft 900 that you've heard a lot about. And he gets out of the car. And that was the first time we met him. And what did you think of him? Honestly.

32:57Honestly, I was like, you know, he may last two months because that's because of because of her because of she'd be, he'd do something and be like, oh, that's a deal breaker and he'd be on on his way. And my mom, I remember my mom saying, well, at least he's tall. We were just meeting them like we would meet somebody she'd bring by. But I never brought. She never bring a lot of people out of guys by. So that's why we thought it wouldn't last that long because she didn't bring too many guys by. Yeah, but why would you think it wouldn't last the people that didn't last you didn't meet? But we heard about them.

33:34Yeah, but they have known my sister. That's one of those just sort of miss Michelle so hard on men, you know. So it's like, yeah, I didn't say she was hard. I brought him, I brought him home. And I think there were, there was one other boyfriend that you met, even though I had plenty of boyfriends. I just, you know, I met more than than two of us. Well, that's because we went to school together. Yeah. Right. Right. Those that didn't come, that they didn't come home. Well, okay. Well, I met them. Yeah, I met them. But they didn't meet mom and dad. No, they didn't meet mom and dad, but that's because we weren't in Chicago.

34:09Oh, anyway. Well, that is really how it turned out, right? So this is the similar thing. You know, you rejected him at first, right? Yeah, yeah, because he, uh, Barack was, I was assigned to be his advisor. And that didn't mean I was his boss, but every, I was a first year associate. So they tried to pair first year sort of with new summer associates, just to help get them acclimated and to kind of give them advice to sort of mentor them for the summer. So I was his mentor, mentor, right? So he comes in, he's late. So I'm thinking, okay, this guy's trifling because we didn't in the Robinson family.

34:48We didn't do late, but he was reigning and he didn't have an umbrella. And so he was a little wet. Um, so I was a little annoyed, but he stood up and he was tall and he was more handsome than his pictures. So I sort of thought, okay, and not what I expected. So I took him around the office, got him settled into his office, took him out to lunch for the, uh, that first day, and we talked for like hours. And I knew that we were going to be friends. He was smart. He was funny. He had a good sense of humor. He didn't take himself too seriously. So we, we clicked right off the bat. And over the course of the summer, we actually became really good friends.

35:33I was even trying to introduce him to some of my friends, my girlfriends saying, there's this really cute guy who's my advisor, because in my mind, there wasn't any way that the, the, the few black, uh, associates there who both went to Harvard, were going to date in my mind. I was like, that's going to be tacky. That's expected, right? And I was just sort of into doing what wasn't, not doing the expected, right? So my mind went somewhere else. I was like, ah, meet all these wonderful, beautiful women that I know, you know? And after a couple of outings, he said, well, why don't we go out? And I was like, no, way are we going to go out?

36:17That's just not going to happen. We are friends. And he was sort of like, well, why? And he made the case. I said, well, you know, I don't think it looks right. And he said who cares about how it looks? And so he made his Barack Obama case over a couple of weeks. And finally, I was like, okay, we'll go out on one date. And so he planned a, after that, it was over, it was a full day date where he pulled out all the stops. We, I'm sure I picked him up because I had the nice car. And we went to the art institute where he showed me his swav, you know, view of art. And we had lunch at the museum. And then we walked from the art institute down Michigan Avenue, north.

37:06So we walked hand in hand, talked slowly. And you know, then we went and had dinner on top of Lake Point Tower, which was a beautiful view of the city. And then we, I think, ended the evening watching, going to Spike Lee's Do The Right Thing. So I mean, he had planned, you know, culture, you know, art, you know, lovely stroll. And slowly I was like, okay, maybe I, you know, I spoke too soon, you know, maybe there is something more here. But yes, that's the long way of saying I did say no for a, a, a, a good month or two. And, but by the end of the summer, we were, I think it was that summer by the end of the summer, I was introducing him to my, my family.

37:56You both have that through line through your story of taking the boxes. And then eventually, it's kind of what we were talking about yesterday on your show where if you have sometimes your preconception has to fail you. Yeah, that's, you have to feel it, feel to understand that maybe a pivot is needed in your life. And I was the same when I was talking about my early journey. And Valerie, this very interesting character in your life, this is the letter I found it that Valerie wrote into me. And she's talking about the pivot you made from being a lawyer to leaving that law firm and going in pursuit of something else.

38:29What was the something else you were pursuing before I read what Valerie said to me? I had no idea. Because I didn't know anything. But I started with what I, I had to spend some time thinking, journaling about what did I care about? What was the journal question? What brought me joy? You know, of all the things that I was doing in my life, what was the thing when I had it on my calendar that I would jump out of bed for, that would change my, the way I felt about the day? And it always had to, it went back to mentoring. Because while I was doing all this stuff in law, in, in my education, I was always finding ways to help younger kids understand how to get here.

39:14So it was the mentoring piece that Craig mentioned. You know, we never talked about that when we think about our, our parents. That brought me absolute joy. You know, so I started really trying to listen to that self -interested part of me. You know, it's like, what made me happy? I never asked myself that. I always, I always did what I thought I was supposed to do. And making money was one of the things that you were supposed to do. If you were anyone who had an opportunity to get an Ivy League education, that was really all they talked about. That's all they showed you. You know, there wasn't a course or major in helping people.

39:54You know, there wasn't a course on working with young kids. You know, there's no major for that, especially in the Ivy leagues. So I know, I knew nothing about the nonprofit world. I knew nothing about NGOs. Well, Valerie said, she said the opposite. I'm joking, I'm joking. The day I met Michelle Obama changed my life forever. I'll never forget the moment she rolled into my office for an interview dressed in all black, hair elegantly pulled back. I was struck by the confidence that she carried herself with. She looked me right in the eye when she shook my hand. She was so poised and self assured that it was hard to believe that she was only 27 years old.

40:35Michelle told me about her life, how she grew up in the south side, how much love and support her parents poured into her and her brother, Craig. I asked her why she was considering public service rather than a much more lucrative path as a partner in law firm. And she said that she had recently lost her dad and her best friend within a year. And their deaths were a painful reminder of the finiteness of life and the importance of making it purposeful. And how she knew that her abilities could lead her to make a difference in the lives of others to serve and to give back to the city that she'd grown up.

41:08I was so in awe of her clarity of purpose, determination and vulnerability that I offered her a job on the spot. That was close, right? That was the same. And at that time in your life, you know, there's early 30s. What's going on with Mr. Obama? Oh, by then he was, he had written his book because he was the president of the Harvard Law Review. The president of the Harvard Law Review is the top student at the top law school in the world. And he was the first black student to be elected president of the Harvard Law Review. And that garnered a lot of attention for him. We were dating at the time.

41:54And so he got a book contract to write a story, dreams from my father, which I thought was who writes a book at your age? Sure. But he was like, yeah, I might as well tell him a story. And it was money, right? You got an advance and we were engaged. So he was working on that project. But he was still trying to figure out what he was going to do. And when you're the president of the Harvard Law Review, basically the world of law is open to you. The normal path is that you clerk for an appellate judge for a year or two. And then you go on to clerk for the Supreme Court. Then you go on to do a pellet work.

42:34You have offers from every law firm. You are in demand or you can do policy or whatever. That was the normal path. I was like, so are you going to clerk? He was like, why would I clerk? So he didn't work at any of the big firms. He went to a very small firm that was doing public interest work. So he wasn't making a lot of money. He was doing what I was doing. He was going the opposite direction of all the things that were supposed to make us money. But he was like, I money isn't why I'm doing this. I'm trying to figure out how I can best use my skills to impact the most people. So he was doing 50 million jobs.

43:13And we were cobbling together our payments for our student loans at the time, which were more than our mortgage. We had bought a condominium. We were on our way to building our lives together, but we were in deep debt. So while we were both pursuing our deep love of being in the community, our incomes were going in the opposite direction of where they were supposed to go. But we were in this together. Politics hadn't really come into the fold yet. It wasn't a part of the conversation. But we were both kind of on these parallel paths, kind of figuring out how do we take all these skills and all this energy and help people.

43:53I was working in the city. He was working everywhere else and writing a book. And we were just kind of, you know, we were sort of plotting ahead. Business takes me all over the world. And I travel about 50 weeks a year. And up until recently, one of the challenges I continue to face was staying connected as soon as I landed somewhere new. The reality is I don't have time to wait around and sort out SIM cards while I'm on the go. So a few months ago, I tried something called Erlo for the first time. And they are now a sponsor of today's episode. Erlo is the world's first e -SIM store. It's entirely digital.

44:30No SIM cards are needed at all. And you can keep the same phone number you have now. It means that you can get reliable data and over 200 destinations with instant access to a digital e -SIM card with a click of a button. When you buy your first Erlo e -SIM, you can get $3 off by using code DOAC3. For me, being able to land Switch on my phone and get back to work is game changing. An Erlo makes this possible. Install Erlo today to get $3 off your first e -SIM with code DOAC3 and check out. That's DOAC3 when you download the Erlo app. I guess I'm seeking advice from both of you on a on love and romance relationships because in my early 30s now, and when I looked at both of your stories of love and your 30s, it's not a straight line.

45:19Oh no. No. It's not a straight line to say the least. Michelle, you talk about going to marriage counseling with Brock. What does someone like me at 32 years old, who is in a relationship, who is aggressively pursuing a career because I feel like I've got a build and build and build and set my family up for the future? What advice would you both give me about navigating love through that part of your career where it's go go go go go? For somebody with your personality in particular, my advice would be that I could see you thinking, if I've got my stuff together and I've got my path going over here and you've got your path going over on over there.

46:08As long as we're both trudging along and pushing, we're going to be good. Generally that can work because you can be two independent beings out there with basically slaying your own dragons, right? Making the choices about which dragons you slay and how much armor you want to use. You're independent people and that feels good right now until your first and most important joint project happened, which you told me you want. You have kids, right? That's oftentimes when the rub happens because when you bring life into the world, you know, that's the project where you can't do that independently. You can't you can't be on one path and your partner on another because raising those kids and making them as whole as as you'd want them to be has so little to do with the dragon you're slaying now, then it does with how you partner and engage and and and make choices together on this these little creatures that you're going to love more than anything in the world.

47:24And you're not going to want to get that project wrong, but you've got to work with your partner. You got to communicate and that's when it gets really hard. Is that when it go hard, Fae? Yeah, yeah. Because you know, when you're independent operators in the world, it, you know, he's off, he's traveling, I'm traveling, you know, maybe I don't see him during the week and then on Saturday, whoa, it's great. I love you. I missed you. This was so cool. Tell me about your life and oh, this is and it's sexy and it's all of this, right? And if you're you're moving and, you know, and you also are okay, having a break.

48:00It's like, let me miss you for a little bit. So I don't care that you're traveling or that you're everywhere. But the minute there's a little baby that is waking someone up and if there's one person that's carrying the burden of that, you know, if one person's dream stops because they're taking on the lion's share of of things and you're still going to the gym and you're still slaying your dragons at the same rate and you haven't looked over at your partner who maybe is now stuck at home because she's breastfeeding or she made a set of choices to make this little creature work and you guys haven't had a conversation about that and what that balance looks like because you're just slaying your dragon at the same rate.

48:44Oh, there's going to be problems, you know, there's going to be resentment, there's going to be fatigue, there's going to be measuring and counting and all the things. So I think it's just important to communicate now to start doing the work of making sure that you guys are defining your one life together, that you're deciding together now what dragons are going to be slaying and who gets to do what when, you know, and what does that feel like, you know, are you going to be working all the time? Are you going to be traveling all the time on the road? Is she coming with you? How does she feel about that?

49:27Did you have that conversation? No, no, we did not. No, because I didn't know that that was the thing that you had to worry about because when you're in the midst of it, it's when you're in the midst of pursuing your own independent journeys, it's beautiful, right? It is. It's like I'm independent, he's independent. We get along and then all of a sudden someone's legs are cut up from under him, you know, you know, someone is making a different set of sacrifices that wasn't negotiated, that weren't negotiated because of children, because of children, because of life. You had some pregnancy struggles.

50:05Yes. And I've spoken to many women on this show who have been through similar pregnancy struggles and it's something that I've, it's actually a big conversation in my life at the moment, but also just some of my friends in my life around trying to get pregnant and the IVF journey, which you went on. What do women who are struggling need to understand? And how did you feel when you were contemplating the IVF journey and when you started to have struggles conceiving without IVF? Because the thing, you know, because we don't talk about our bodies and women's health and there's just not a lot of conversation about marriage or pregnancy or any of this.

50:48Our parents don't talk about it. Their parents before them don't talk about it, right? So you imagine your life as you're checking boxes. I'm waiting, I've delayed, having kids, I found the love of my life and now I'm going to get pregnant. And no one tells you that there is really a biological to clock. Like that's not false, you know. We have partner and podcast Dr. Sharon Malone who wrote a book, Grown Woman Talked, where she's talking, she's sort of ripping the the curtain off of women's health questions. And in a conversation with her, she reminded us that women we are born with a finite set of eggs and we don't get anymore.

51:32And every month we're losing them. And so there is a period of time usually and it's different for everyone, usually in your thirties where you go from fertile to not. And it's like falling off of a cliff. And I'm like, why didn't anybody tell me this? Why wasn't people talking about this? So by the time we started really trying, which worked perfectly for our careers and maturing and having everything set, right? Because that's what we're trying to get everything set. Unlike our parents who had us, we lived in a little bit of apartment, one income, our generation were worrying about, why won everything set?

52:16I guarantee you have things way more set than any of our parents had before they started having kids. But we're waiting for everything to be perfect. No friction. We don't want any friction, right? And while we're waiting for our lives to be perfect, that biological clock is ticking. So you start trying and it's not working. That's when you go to the doctor and they tell you, oh, you're you're running out of eggs. This is normal. I mean, you're going to have trouble getting pregnant. And so try a little bit. And then now it's time for IVF. If you can afford it, which it wasn't covered by insurance at the time.

52:55So, you know, it's just a shock to the system. And as some, as people who like learning and like knowledge, you really sort of feel gipped. You know, that what, why is this such a secret? Which is why I talk about it openly. And I talk about miscarriages because the other thing I learned is like most pregnancies, a good percentage of them end in miscarriage that people have been having miscarriages for years, but not talking about it. So when it happens to you, a box checker, somebody that thought life was going to be so and you did all the right things to have things not work out and to know that it was going to be that way.

53:33And nobody told you so that you could be prepared for it. It just, it was a blow. And then as a woman, you're walking around owning the blow as if it's your fault. You know, and so you're carrying around that bird. And that can become the first pressure point in a marriage because emotionally, you've got a woman that is carrying all of this feeling like a failure, feeling not having anyone to talk about, having her hormones go up and down literally, right? Probably dealing with depression and maybe some postpartum still working, still slaying dragons, still on the path, but she's carrying it all on her own.

54:15And then if you do IVF, the bulk of the work, the shots, the, the, we are the the petri dish in the IVF process, you show up, you come in a cup and oh, yeah, good for you, right? And you're a little mad about that too because women have to get shots every week. And you have to go back and forth in between having your job, your high -powered job and keeping it all together. You're at the doctor's office every month to try and count your eggs and hoping that you're producing eggs. And then you have to go through the procedure. And then you have to be pregnant for nine months as your partner is going to the gym and keeping his figure and, you know, all of that, you know?

55:02So it's a long way of saying there are just many natural reasons why marriage, infertility, trying to have kids makes things difficult. It's like I try to tell couples, of course it's hard, just listen to what I said, right? Like it's probably if you're having some issues in your marriage, it's not you, it's the process of marriage. It's just all hard because guess what happens when it all works out, right? You know what you end up with? Babies, little people with their own sense of everything, they mess you up, you love them dearly, but they're a hassle. And they're demanding and they have their own whims and now they're in your world, in your partnership.

55:55They are, they are factored into everything. So even when everything works out and you have the 3 .2 kids and you got everything right, it's still going to be hard because now you're developing a life, right? So I talk about these things because I think that people give up too quickly on marriage, right? Because there is so much friction built into the equation. And if you're not getting help talking about it, going to therapy, just understanding how things are changing and how do you continuously renegotiate your relationship with your partner, I just see people quitting because they look at me and Barack and go, hash to hat, couple goals, you know?

56:46And I'm like, it's hard, it's hard for us too. But I wouldn't trade it. You know, he is, as the young people say, he is my person. Was there ever a moment where you thought, you know, there are the moments where I'm like, right? But it wasn't real? No, no, no. There was never really a full moment. There are moments when I was resentful, there were moments when I was mad, there were moments when I didn't feel like I got enough attention. But it's like, don't you feel that in your relationship right now? You know? So it's just me understanding, yeah, I was mad, but I forgot even while I was mad, right?

57:31That's so it's like, was I really that mad? Oh, did I say that? I'm sorry, I didn't really mean that. So no, in the end, you know, no, we're, you know, and the beauty of my husband and my, our partnership is that neither one of us was ever really ever going to quit at it because that's not who we are. And I know that about him. He knows that about me, you know? So no. Both of your lives change because of a decision that former president, Barack Obama decides to make, which is to run for public office. And that is has a profound impact on both of your lives because it's the most powerful job in the world.

58:16It is, you become the most famous family in the world. When he said that he was going to do that, did you believe that he was capable of it? Yeah, that was the problem is that, you know, I knew that in my heart, I knew that he would make a phenomenal president. And as I've written in in the light, the truth was is that my initial reaction was like, oh, no, oh my god, don't do this. It had everything to do with having the foresight of knowing what this would do to our lives. I mean, I was projecting that if you win, which I thought he could and should, he would be somebody that I would want as my president.

59:06It was all about, this is going to, you know, our kids are little. We're going to have to move. How do you raise kids in the White House? It's dangerous. Is the first black potential president? We knew there would be death threats. They were just all the how we afford it because it's expensive to live in the White House. There's many people don't know. I mean, much is not covered. You're paying for every food, every bit of food that you eat. You know, you're not paying for housing and the staff in it, but everything, even travel. If you're not traveling with the president, if your kids are coming on a bright star, which is the first lady's plane, we had to pay for their travel to be on the plane.

59:50It is an expensive proposition and you're running for two years and not earning an income. So all of that was in my mind. How would we manage this? So my fears were, what came from the fact that I thought he could win. You know, because if I maybe way in the back of my mind, I was hoping that maybe he wouldn't, you know, that this would be the last thing he would do. But I knew he had an in him to make this happen. This one change has transformed how my team and I move train and think about our bodies. When Dr. Daniel Lieberman came on the diere of a CEO, he explained how modern issues with their cushioning and support are making our feet weaker and less capable of doing what nature intended them to do.

1:00:40We've lost the natural strength and mobility in our feet and this is leading to issues like back pain and knee pain. I'd already purchased a pair of Vivo barefoot shoes. So I showed them to Daniel Lieberman and he told me that they were exactly the type of shoe that would help me restore natural foot movement and rebuild my strength. But I think it was planter for shilters that I had where suddenly my feet started hurting all the time and after that I decided to start strengthening my own foot by using the Vivo barefoot and research from Liverpool University has backed this up. They've shown that wearing Vivo barefoot shoes for six months can increase foot strength by up to 60%.

1:01:14Visit vivobearfoot .com slash D .O .A .C. and use code diary 20 from my sponsor for 20 % off. A strong body starts with strong feet. This has never been done before. A newsletter that is ran by 100 of the world's top CEOs. All the time people say to me they say can you mentor me can you get this person to mentor me how do I find a mentor. So here is what we're going to do. You're going to send me a question and the most popular question you send me I'm going to text it to 100 CEOs some of which are the top CEOs in the world running a hundred billion dollar companies and then I'm going to reply to you via email with how they answered that question.

1:01:56You might say how do you hold on to a relationship when you're building a startup. What is the most important thing if I've got an idea and don't know where to start? We email it to the CEOs they email back we take the five six top best answers we email it to you. I was nervous because I thought the marketing might not match the reality but then I saw what the founders are replying with and they're willing this to reply and I thought actually this is really good and all you've got to do is sign up completely free. Did you ask for any commitments or promises if he were to win? I you know it wasn't very thoughtful.

1:02:32I told him that he definitely had to quit smoking because he was still towing with smoking. He was in it not in it and we had to have enough of a nest egg so that we couldn't be just financially broke at the end of it and I thought that that was going to cut it because we weren't in really we were just starting to make decision moves where we were covering the income that we lost making our purposeful moves. So I kind of thought that was going to be the deal breaker but then he was chosen to give the speech at the Democratic National Convention and he just blew up and as a result of that and maybe I'm getting it out of order.

1:03:21Drinks from my father went back on the best sellers list. He was all this income that was being generated from his book sales and he kind of looked at me like I think we're okay and I'm like darn threats. So I didn't know enough to know what to ask for. I mean we were flying blind. I didn't know what that journey was going to be and what I would need to negotiate for myself and that was a bit problematic. It was problematic not to know what I needed. What should you have said? I should have said that I needed his team to really truly value that he had a family. You know that I shouldn't have just said well this is what it takes to get this done.

1:04:22I mean it was almost like the consultants that sit around. It was almost like this is the way it has to be. And remember the legacy of presidential office doesn't recognize families. It is not designed you know. You get in there and it all revolves around the commander in chief who has always been a man and the whole system of it doesn't really take into account that there's a wife and kids and their needs and the demands on them. So I wound up having to fight for a lot of stuff on my own. So if I had known these things and maybe maybe Laura Bush knew more than I did because the bushes had been in the White House.

1:05:10Maybe you know I think about maybe there's some world where people knew more about this thing than we did to understand the impacts but there are also generational differences. I was a very different first lady. Not terribly different from Hillary Clinton but it was a different time. We had small kids in the White House and that didn't happen often. There were just accommodations and ways that the West Wing did not think about or worked to fully protect all of us in the process as a unit. And so if I had known what I knew now I would have asked for different things but I ultimately I had to push to get the things that we needed to be able to operate as a family.

1:06:01Even when it came down to how the Secret Service protected little kids. The girls had to have a detail. So they started school in second grade and fifth grade in armed cars with primarily men with guns going into a new school. Strangers that they did not know. And the detail, they weren't practiced on going to Sidwell's second grade school yard. So we had to basically work on how do you do this for little kids. So a lot of times details just flood through. They continuously move through. It was important for me that we find two detail leaders that stayed with the girls for most of their time until they became teenagers because it was sort of like you know these people right at least they get to know they couldn't just have strange men coming throughout and we had to kind of fight for that.

1:07:11So those are just one example of what living under those things and trying to raise small children. You know the kind of things that the guys in the West Wing weren't thinking about as they were fixing the financial crisis and dealing with Syria and on and on and on. I was trying to make sure that our kids came out of that process not crazy and whole. Being the first black first lady in the White House. The public scrutiny that that comes with is a unique type of scrutiny. Being the first lady anyway comes with tremendous scrutiny. Absolutely. Since stepping reluctantly into public life I've been held up as the most powerful woman in the world and taken down as an angry black woman.

1:08:06I've wanted to ask my detractors which part of that phrase matters to them the most. Is it angry or black or woman? I've smiled for photos with people called my husband horrible names on national television but still want to frame keepsake for their mantle. I've heard about the swampy parts of the internet that question everything about me right down to whether I'm a woman or man sitting U .S. congressman has made fun of my butt. I've been hurt. I've been furious. But mostly I've tried to laugh the stuff off. Craig, if that was my little sister, public scrutiny elevated to the highest office in the land.

1:08:56I'll ask you the question. How did you feel? Let me back up because I had been a basketball coach at a big conference. I always had to tell them don't worry about what people say in the newspaper. I'm doing exactly what I love to do and that doesn't bother me at all. But then once they got in the White House, I had to tell myself that because I knew that they were doing the best that they could do for the most people no matter what anybody said. But because it's my little sister and brother in law and my mom's in the White House and my nieces, there were times where I would find myself becoming enraged and I'd have to coach myself to I know they're doing the best they're doing.

1:09:57They can do for the most people and I would not want anybody else sitting in that seat but my sister and brother -in -law. And that's how I got through eight years of that. Because it's relentless. It is relentless. It is global. It is unfair. And it's mean. It's just mean. And you know, I've been leaned back on the lessons I learned from my parents a long time ago. I wasn't worried about what anybody said who wasn't at this table. And I coached that council, my family, my immediate family, the same thing. Our older kids were old enough to read the papers and read the news and things online. But Mish always talks about this.

1:10:48In order to get through that, she always says she needed the village of her friends and family. And I just wanted to be a supportive piece of that. And we tried to get out there as much as we could and make it as normal as you can, having Thanksgiving in the White House. That's an oxymoron almost having a normal Thanksgiving in the White House. But we tried to make it as normal as we could. And yourself, how does one deal with such scrutiny? This scrutiny occurs for eight years as the public are at war with different opinions and ideas. And often the president has seen as the villain or the hero in that context and the family is obviously impacted by that.

1:11:32But then even beyond the White House, it's relentless. Is there a framework? Is there an underlying belief? Is there a set of values? It goes back to what we learned earlier. I think I approach everything with empathy and Brock does too. And he helps keep me in check because he is so smart and he believes in ideas and he understands context and history. We are always putting these times, these moments into a greater context. We're trying to understand where people's rage, ignorance, hatred, whatever it is, where it comes from. And it usually doesn't have anything to do with us. It has to do with the state of the world.

1:12:24And the world in this country is unfair for way more people than it is fair to. And it impacts people of all races. And folks are angry and they're scared. And they don't have enough opportunity. And when people are putting that position, they lash out their mean. That's when they're, you know, we otherwise people because it gives us a sense of stability. We pick on someone. Someone has to be a little more oppressed than us. But that doesn't make what they say or feel true. You know, that's, you know, just because you say it or think it about me in the way that I had to overcome the racist low expectations of us and our childhood, it's the same thing.

1:13:13It's like, you're not mad at me. You don't understand a lot about the world. And you've been told a lot of things about who people of my skin color are. You've been taught to fear me because of the history of our country, because of what you're going through. And when you put yourself in other people's shoes, I do get why people are afraid. I do understand it. And also Borock helps me remember which I experienced myself. You know, he says this is still the country that elected Barack Obama twice. And people in this country are proud of that. There is a very small percentage of people who would never, ever in their lifetime want a black man to tell them how to get down the street to the grocery store.

1:14:02Right. They can't hear it. But this, this country is bigger than that. Right. And we saw it. We experienced it as much hatred or, you know, conflict or ridicule. We had so much love, so much goodwill, you know, so many people who tell us even today we miss you guys, you know, and it doesn't look like any, you'd be surprised at what corners of the world.

1:14:36And that is true too. We are in a really tough time right now. And we were being led sadly by people who are not being, in my opinion, their best selves for whatever reasons they have, whatever is moving them to push this country in this direction, whatever hurts they have, billionaires have their hurts to, you know, business leaders, people in power who want power and have an understand, understood their why, you know, can lead us down some dark tunnels, right. But it's that empathy for me that ability to kind of give it some perspective that allows me not to take all that hate in and to really, you know, see the light in people, you know, it's just the better way to live.

1:15:33It keeps us from being embittered and it keeps us hopeful and it keeps us working for people, you know. So it's kind of a necessity to get through it. Marian, you're wonderful mother. She was a prominent figure throughout that time in the White House. Oh yeah. What did she give you that helped you through that journey of being thrust into the very, very, very highest mountain and public service? What role did she play? What force was she at that time for you both? For me, she continued to be that soft place to land, you know, the place where she always saw me, always, always saw who I was. And she was that soft place for our girls.

1:16:29She was common sense right in the middle of the White House, you know, in that big house. People, you know, just with her sheer presence and her wisdom, you know, that old -fashioned wisdom, she was the center of that house. Everyone came to her door and sat in her room and sucked up her wisdom. The butlers, the, you know, the forests, the housekeepers, the chefs, you know, they were all mothered in some way by her. And so she was that for me for sure. I can still see her in your face as you reflect. She's there. She's there. I see it in his face more. You know, you don't see yourself in your, like, I don't think I look like him at all, right?

1:17:19But he looks just like my mother, right? How did that loss impact the families? 2024, so it's fairly recent. Yeah, yeah, it's still, it's still painful. But, you know, I'll go back to what I said at the very beginning when you talked about the values we had. The underlying value was unconditional love. And Misha and I knew that our mom loved us. And even more importantly, she knew we loved her. She knew her grandkids loved her. So while her dying was traumatic and disappointing and sad, I always feel like she knew where we stood. And she was, it was, it was when she was right before she passed away.

1:18:13And she, we knew she was going to be leaving us. And I said, you know, Misha Barack are on her way. And she was like, oh, that's nice. And she just said that. That's true.

1:18:28Yeah. Oh, there was nothing left unsaid. Yeah. Yeah. And they're just, they're just, they're just a piece. Yeah. Yeah. I just miss her. Right. But I feel like she knows how we feel about her. And that's, that's always comforting. And speaking of comfort, that's how I felt when she was in the White House for them. Because I didn't have to worry about them when she was there. Have you processed the grief? Have you been able to? I'm sure I have more than he does because he doesn't process stuff. He just keeps working through it. But yeah, yeah, I think I, I pray for me, making choices for me, I feel like now I have permission to do what I want to do.

1:19:27I think part of our podcast is part of that legacy. Because at least for me as a woman, I think at 61, I'm finally owning my wisdom in a way that I don't, yeah, I think it takes women until we're about 60 to be like, I think I know, I think or two. But that wisdom comes from her. And she's, she was, she's our, our last line of elder wisdom. And so now we're up, we're next up. Believe it or not, me and Craig and our family, we're the ones. So IMO in my opinion, our podcast is sort of that offering back. It's like, all right, let's, let's keep up the mentoring that we were taught. You know, let's, let's, let's create our table and be a place where people can come for the little bit of advice and conversation in the same way that you're doing, Steven.

1:20:28It's like when you, when you learn something, the way you hone in on it is that you keep teaching it to other people. Right. You said that. Right. And so this is sort of helping us continue to, you know, by helping others, which is a thing we both get great joy from that mentoring, be just being able to, you know, have this conversation here and maybe somebody's going to get something from it that I missed when I was their age. That brings us joy. It's like, we're here for a reason other than making a bunch of money and, you know, living a nice life or being famous. It's like, maybe we can help somebody.

1:21:10Permission. Yeah. I was watching the coverage of your decision, your decision to sort of take back some of your control and go to Trump's inauguration. Is that one of those key moments in your life where you did take back control? Absolutely. Absolutely. What was the thinking behind that decision?

1:21:29What do I want to do in this moment, you know, as a box checking, a person who has been box checking her whole life, doing the right thing, trying to always be an example, always going high. I think now I earned a little bit about, well, how do I feel? Do I want to up in my life and take this trip and leave my peace and my children for this? I didn't have to. That was my choice. And I would have never made that choice. I would have always done what I thought was the right thing to do for other people to set an example. And I think I just told myself, I think I've done it enough of that. And if I haven't, then I never will.

1:22:25It'll never be enough. So let me start now. It's the perfect time to start. So yeah. Obviously, if the back of that, people start to swerve room is that there's an issue with you and Brock and as it was coming, I can, I mean, you can say it yourself, but I don't think that needs to be addressed.

1:22:47What I will say, you know me now well enough, Steven, is if I would have problems with my husband, everybody would know that. And let me tell you, and then he would know it and everybody would know it. I'm not a martyr. I'm not, you know, and I would, but I would be problem solving in public. And be like, let me tell you what he did. They were having a problem. I'd be doing a podcast with him.

1:23:17Your podcast is incredible. And I highly recommend everybody goes and checks it out. I'm going to link it below on the screen. I was fortunate enough to be invited on yesterday. We had a wonderful conversation. I am in my opinion. It's a reflection of this kind of conversation. It's human. It's a discovery of life. You're bringing people on there that have wisdom to share, but you're passing through that to understand the world that we're all living in and the struggles that we're all contending with. So it's a wonderful, wonderful space on the internet. I highly recommend my viewers go and check it out on Spotify, on YouTube, wherever you get your podcasts.

1:23:48It's a must listen in my opinion because it's so rare that we get an insight and an window into the family, but also just a human story of everything that you've both been through in your lives. There's a really successful coach, as a stockbroker, as the first lady, as a mother. And then everything you're going to do thereafter. You're helping me navigate the world and you help other people navigate the world because not everybody has that foundation. Not everybody has the parents at home. Everybody has especially in black communities. Not everybody has the mentors and you'll be carelessly mentoring the world through that show.

1:24:19So please do continue. It's a wonderful thing to get to podcasts. I was so happy to hear when you joined the industry. We have a closing tradition. And the closing tradition on this podcast is that the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're leaving it for. So the question that's been left for you both is if there is one person in your life that you have been afraid of putting up a boundary with, but no you need to, who would it be? Now you don't have to name them, but I guess this question is just about boundaries.

1:24:51You know, creation might have finished. Yeah, I think I've kind of done that. Yeah, but this a you got our boundaries well set. I think this that's that's because we're not naming a who I think it's the act of practicing setting boundaries period. Right. And I'm having that conversation with my daughters now. I mean, it takes a lot of work to learn how to say no and how not to be people pleasers, which I think there are more of us out there than we'd like to admit. It takes practice and it takes decades of practice. And I am constantly giving my my girls tips on how to do it, how to politely do it, how to you know, how to not jam yourself up, how to not say yes right away, how to take a moment and say, let me think about that.

1:25:50You know, some of a boundary is just saying, wait, I don't have to give you an answer right now. Let me go back and sit in it in the the request and figure out whether it works for me. And so many of us as pleasers, we're trying to give people an answer right away. And it's hard to look someone in the face and say, no. So I think it takes practice, even practice in the wording of it. And then the older you get, the easier it gets because guess what you realize, your no doesn't usually change anyone else's life. You know, they might be disappointed, but guess what? It all they will find the next person that they'll ask, the world continues.

1:26:35None of us are that important. And people can deal with a little disappointment every now and then. And with that, I thank you both. It's such an honor to get to meet you and to learn so much from you. And yeah, I the rise of your family, the grace, the humility and the way that you've conducted yourself has been a huge source of inspiration for me. As a young black man, that's navigating the world and that's looking up to role models that aren't often as in close proximity in our lives. So thank you so much. I can't tell you how much you had a profound impact on me. Thousands of miles away in a small little village in the southwest of England had a profound impact on me in shaping the man that I became in my life.

1:27:18And that's a credit to your family. And it's just the greatest honor that I got to speak to you both today. So thank you. It's been a pleasure. Absolutely. Treat to be spending time with you. Thanks for having us. Hopefully it won't be the last. I have not. Yeah. I find it incredibly fascinating that when we look at the back end of Spotify and Apple and our audio channels, the majority of people that watch this podcast haven't yet hit the follow button or the subscribe button wherever you're listening to this. I would like to make a deal with you. If you could do me a huge favor and hit that subscribe button, I will work tirelessly from now until forever to make the show better and better and better and better.

1:27:53I can't tell you how much it helps when you hit that subscribe button. The show gets bigger which means we can expand the production, bring in all the guests you want to see and continue to do in this thing we love. If you could do me that small favor and hit the follow button wherever you're listening to this, that would mean the world to me. That is the only favor I will ever ask you. Thank you so much for your time.

1:28:36The Direvcio's brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy. Just drop in some details about yourself and see if you're eligible to save money when you bundle your home and auto policies. The process only takes minutes and it could mean hundreds more in your pocket. Visit progressive .com after this episode to see if you could save. Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary, not available in all states. At home. And because you've got this one source of truth, you can make fast decisions based on real time data or if you're looking ahead, NetSweets forecasting tools give you a clear view of what's coming next and how to prepare for it.

1:29:14NetSweets helps you spot bottlenecks, manage your margins and stay agile. So if your business is generating seven figures or more, download the free ebook which is called Navigating Global Trade at 3 Insights for Leaders at NetSweets .com slash Bartlett. That's NetSweets .com slash Bartlett.