George Heaton (Represent Founder): From My Garden Shed To $100m Business Empire! "Work Life Balance Is Bullshit!", "That Letter Was The End Of Represent!"

27:03Was this the period in 2018 where you said you lost the motivation for the business? Yeah, just before that. Take me into that period of your life. If I'm a fly on the wall, what do I see in your world at that time where you're not excited about it? Not excited about it because we were getting a lot of pushback from press and we were trying to do runway shows and no stores wanted to buy us and our price points weren't right and the way we were taking the design wasn't right and that was like painful because it's a passion for us. I would love so like that negative feedback was like kind of painful at a time but we used it as like a reset button and I looked at myself as well at the same time like I wasn't putting everything into the brand.

27:48I wasn't going like full -on with it. I was messing around and like enjoying my life as well because we were making money at that time like more than what we should have been doing in our early 20s. So we're fucking around a lot and I'm not going to say I rely like we wouldn't know what we were doing more messing around and it just got to a point where like that year became unprofitable and for me to sit there and think, fuck, like, I've done this for the past seven or eight years and now it's not making money. That was like, that was the thing that then just, that was a catalyst that just changed everything.

28:27I just took a real good hard look at what we are and who we were and just changed all. What about you on a personal level at that time? You said you weren't happy with yourself. I hated the way I looked, I hated the way I came across on social media. I was very shy, very unconfident, like terrible at hiring people and just didn't like had not anger issues, but was always angry, was always negative, always had like this pessimistic view of everything, even the weather would piss me off. For a long time, and I just remember reading a few books and thinking like, why am I this way and how do I change myself?

29:06And like being the artist I even redrew how I wanted to look. And it was like every single day now I've got to work on being that guy who is George Heaton that I want him to be not who I am now. You actually drew? Yeah, yeah. And I got a picture. Yeah, I used to look back at it all the time and just think this is I wanted to recreate myself and recreate the brand. What was the base you were starting from at that point? And how old are you at this point? 26, I think it was 25, 26. I just like, I had an unhealthy relationship with the way I worked and even the food I had and like I wasn't healthy, I wasn't doing well.

29:46Didn't look great, like didn't feel myself, I didn't want to look at myself in the mirror. You didn't want to look at yourself in the mirror? Yeah. Because I didn't like who I'd become and like, I didn't like what the brand had become either and the brand was my life. so it's like this whole needs to change. When you say, didn't want to look at yourself in the mirror, do you actually mean that? Are you saying that as like a figure of speech? I guess a figure of speech, but as well like realizing that I wanted to change a lot. So then when you do want to change, then you don't like the way you are.

30:18How did you know you wanted to change? I mean, that sounds like an interu - like a slightly peculiar question, but I always think about what it takes for someone to have one of those moments in their life when they go, you know what, enough is enough. Yeah. And sometimes I've always like pondered, I think I've said it a few times on the show, like the people have to reach a certain rock bottom in their lives before they go, do you know what? 100 % and I see this with people now that we inspire with 247 or who will send me a DM and say, look, you've changed my life through this or that. I think the best view of heaven is from hell, right?

30:51I think you've got to get to the bottom of that mountain to start recliming it. I think if you just sit around in the middle somewhere and life's just is what it is, That was what I was going through. And I had a girlfriend and we'd split up and that was terrible. And yeah, the brand wasn't doing well. I got told it was unprofitable. And I was just in this fucking, what, for me was rock bottom. And I know it doesn't sound bad compared to a lot of other people's lives. I understand that. But for me, the where I'd been and the trajectory that I fought, I was on it was rock bottom. So that was like the reset.

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32:35Grab an HDX tough tilt to protect your tools. Or keep your sports equipment contained with reinforced snap fit lids. Or stack up and make better use of your space with bins and totes built to last. Whatever your story, we've got the gear to keep it organized and protected at the whole depot. How do worms get more done? So you drew a picture of yourself and how you wanted to look. Did you write anything about who you wanted to be in terms of values or... Yeah. I've got a best friend who's done a very similar transformation. And they literally wrote down like a set of principles. and it's in the notes of their phone, it's my friend Anthony, and he went from being in a place in his life where he also figuratively couldn't look himself in the mirror, dropped alcohol, hit the gym and his turn around, and he has almost as a ten -commandment in his notes of his phone.

33:29Yeah, he did something similar. Exactly the same, and I still have them that pop up every morning, like, reminders on my phone. I found this guy called Andy Fritzseller, and he had a book called 75 hard and it was like a mental toughness challenge, but it also included a lot of working out in there and it was like no alcohol, drink this much water, read this much of a book and just do it every single day for 75 days, write down five things you're going to do that day. And I did that and I started doing it and I started seeing like these crazy results in my life just with everything, just the way I could structure my day and knowing that I had to put two workouts into a day, one had to be outside, one had to be inside.

34:10So, I'll structure the rest of the day around that and then started learning how to plan my day out better and where the time was where I could go and do these other things and like every night, I would read 10 pages of a book, whichever book that was from all around holiday books and Robert Green and everything like that. So, I was learning all these things whilst I was also doing this mental toughness challenge and it was like a 75 day thing. And I remember getting to to get into the end of it and just thinking, fuck, I looked at myself then and I was like, okay, I can see the change. And you know, when you can see change, that's when you really go into it.

34:45Start getting obsessed when you see whether it's success or your fitness levels go up or just the way you energy levels are every day and just figuring out that these little indicators are changing the way I'm. And then at the same time, we were really working on the business. so the business was starting to see a bit more success and that whole thing, the cadence of that just kept rolling and rolling and rolling and I guess whether it's obsession or addiction, I got addicted to it. And like there couldn't be a day go by where I wouldn't work out or I wouldn't eat the exact calories that I needed to eat or I wouldn't sleep the exact like I needed to get the exact amount of sleep that I wanted and it just completely changed like the way I looked and of like my levels of fitness and cardiovascular and strength and everything like that.

35:32I just went through the roof because people will look you now and think that, you know, they'll see you getting up, I don't know, five a .m. in the morning and going for like a 20 mile run and hitting the gym later that evening running a business, doing all these things, being super productive. And they'll probably think he was just born with something that I don't have, right? Like he's just got this level of motivation. Yeah. Probably came in his DNA that I don't have. Yeah, and a lot of people do say that. A lot of people think that, think it's genetics, or they think it's steroids and stuff like that.

36:01Or they'll just think, are you like wired in a way? Yeah, yeah, from us. I used to think that as well, back when I was overweight and unhealthy and like, I'd look at people and say, I'm gonna be like, yeah, genetics, whatever. Yeah, he's on steroids. I can't look like that. I've got business to run. Like you would dismiss everything, but it's not. I want you to start doing it yourself and you see those little gains and you get into it and you can really change. What is the starting point? One step at a time. Whether it's 10 ,000 steps or doing even a 20 minute work out, that's all people need to do to change.

36:35Because you'll start seeing results regardless of what position you're in right now. If you can just keep increasing incrementally what you're doing in terms of fitness or your business or however you sleep, whatever it is that you feel is not right, you'll see the change over time it comes and it takes a long time, takes a really long time but it happens. It's difficult to believe I guess for some people because they kind of see the mountain in front of them and you're telling them, listen, it's just one step at a time up that mountain, but they're just looking at the top of the mountain going, Jesus Christ, that's a long way away.

37:09And the thought that the first steps to take are small ones, almost doesn't seem believable. Yeah, and not the same with me, like I would go head on into something thinking that you could just go out there and run a marathon within a week. And people do that and it crushes you and then you have to start again. But it's just about finding that rhythm of like what you enjoy and just go and just doing it and not really taking your thought off the gas once you start doing it. So jumping back to 2018 then. So the business is stagnant during that period of time and you go on this process of reinventing yourself.

37:43You also go on the process of reinventing the business. Yeah. What does that mean? How did you reinvent the business? We stripped back all the whole sale that we were doing and we focused on the D2C. So we went into this weekly drop thing and it was just the right, it was just before like COVID happened and James, who is a chief product officer, was like super keen on moving our production out to Portugal. It was currently in the UK and Italy and it was making no money and I had so many arguments with him about it and like like, hey, this way of thinking that he was doing and like, what he wanted to do with the business.

38:21And it got sort of like, we had a massive heated argument about it and it was so right for the business at a time and I just didn't know it because I weren't accepting of like, changing the way we were working and I didn't understand that you could go and do this other thing and produce in a different way than what we were doing. And like, full credit to him, me completely changed the whole like margin of what we were doing. So James was doing that for like nine months straight. And Mike was doing all these new graphics that was going to change the way the brand looked. And then I came out to LA a few times and burned these t -shirts that I really loved and these cargo pants that I loved and then we started putting all these three things together through all of us.

39:06And then I have a guy called Stefan who was doing all the website maintenance and everything like that. And we changed the way the website looked in the whole vision of the brand and we deleted everything off social media and just like restarted and it just started working and we put like 300 t -shirts online and we sold 300 in a minute. And then the next week might be another design and we'd sold 600 in a minute and then 900 in a minute and then it was like, fuck, we actually do have a following here. We've gone from doing 10, 15 sales through the day to like a thousand every single Wednesday, two thousand, three thousand, four thousand.

39:41And that gave us like the liquid and also the confidence to then go and create more collections and go back to becoming a real brand again. Where's you saying that? Maybe think about how so many people aren't successful in their lives or aren't as successful as they could possibly be because they haven't gone out of their own way. And that was me a million times over and just like having that open mindedness and listening to other people and knowing that it's not you're not right with everything is such a fucking huge thing. It's difficult when you're I think especially if you're a young CEO because you're probably already a bit insecure.

40:21Right. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Like you feel like you should know everything so you're like overcompensating by. But then as well, like the business was growing so much that I would have only just restricted it if I would have stayed in that CEO position, even though I was learning a lot and listening to a lot of things and we had to bring people in because we were like busting at the seams, didn't have enough staff and like the revenue was going crazy and we didn't know what to do with ourselves, we're all running around like headless chicken, there's only like 20 people in the business and we're doing like 35 million revenue and it was like fuck how what are we going to do, we're going to do 50 million next year, but we don't know what we're doing.

40:59Just like so silly. But yeah, you just got to say from the outside, it looks like you had it all together. Of course it does. Yeah. For the whole 13 years, it kind of looks like that. And it still looks like that now. And we definitely don't have it all together. But with Ado, having amazing leadership team and everyone in the business is like so bought into it now. And now there's like a mission statement and some fundamentals behind the business. And everyone's Everyone's really on the mission with me and like they fucking live for it and love it and like we'll die for it You've you've created a pretty amazing company culture You were talking about it there.

41:36Yeah. How have you done that? That's it's not really I'm not gonna say her and take credit for that I'll take credit for like the gym that we have in there and and the way we like everyone works hard But also like my the CEO that came in spany just he's all about people people over profit but every day of the week, whatever it is, it's people first. So we have such a good group of, like the leadership team he's brought in and everyone who's involved with the business now, it's just constant transparency and here's where we go in, here's what we're doing, here's what's wrong, here's what's right, we need to focus more on this, we need to do more of this, and just giving them everything that they want.

42:17And even though it's, yeah, you gotta work hard, you gotta work fucking hard. we're still like, we're probably the best place to work for that I know of. Self -awareness. I've spoken to a lot of founders that have been very, very successful, especially out of Europe. And one of the things that they all seem to have in common is at some point in their journey, they develop such a high self -awareness that as we kind of said, they got out of the way the business and just focused on the thing that they're good at. And that's pretty much what it looks like you're doing now. Yeah, and I hope that's right.

42:50And I've seen people do that and get it wrong, but for me, I think it is right. I'm not a business man and like, for me to be the CEO of this business that's growing rapidly and has all these people involved with it, like all I would do is stump the girl for that. So, like you said earlier today, like, there's people that are so much better at things than you. And if you can bring them into your business, they can get on with that stuff and do 10 times better jobs than you can. and lay the foundations for it to become $500 million or a billion dollar brand or $10 billion dollar brand and you can focus on what you're actually good at.

43:25How'd you get them to come? I think like you said then, like company culture, like you see, if you see represent on LinkedIn or something, you're gonna look at it and think, fuck, I want to be in there. These guys and girls are getting after it, like doing gym sessions together at 6am and they're all out and they're just enjoying the workplace. like, but that comes from being a successful brand. You can't just do that from the get -go. You can't just build a gym with no money, right? So you've got to build that level of success, and then you're able to reinvest into the brand rather than into your stock and and build in the actual size of the company.

44:01Because this is always the issue that I have, specifically like young founders or early stage entrepreneurs talking about is, K Steve, if I get it, I know we need great people, but how do I persuade great people, like Spencer, it's spenny right here. Yeah, Paul Spencer. Paul Spencer. How do I get him to come work here? Right. When he's working at like Puma, he was in Puma, wasn't he? Yeah, he was in Puma. How did you get him to come from Puma to represent? Built a relationship with him over many years. James was in contact with him for five years since we first met and then as the business scaled, he saw what we had, like he saw what me and Mike had together as brothers and he saw what me, Mike, James, and Steph had as like a leadership team and he wanted to be involved with it because he knows that there's no other options for us.

44:47It was like we're building this. There's no ceiling. Like what is what is representing 10 years? Like what can it be? And he says it every day as I gives me fucking goosebumps walking in here because there's no there's no limit to it. Like we can do everything. If we can spell it, sell sportswear, we can sell vintage t -shirts and we can sell salt, like it's insane, we can do anything. It's not really a brand anymore. It's like a lifestyle. Of all the business decisions that you've made, where does hiring a CEO to run the business and you stepping out of the way rank? Number one. Really? Yeah.

45:25My life's just so much better now that he's involved with the business and there's a lot of weight taking off my shoulders. It's not the first time I've heard this. I think Ben Francis would have said the same. Yeah, I bet. You know, and Julian and Hule said the same and that putting someone in that CEO role where it's both like not enjoyable for you as a creative, but also it's not good for the business because it's not your skill, sir. And yeah, it wasn't enjoyable for a long time and you do it because you had to do it. And if I spent six hours in that role of a CEO to then come out of my room and be like, Mike, let's go and design this thing, you didn't want it to do it, there's no energy.

46:05That shit drains your energy. If you're creative, the business side of the thing drains your energy. It absolutely kills you. Even to this day, I'll go into a board meeting enough to 15 minutes. I'm just like, oh my God, I'm asleep. But I could sit in Mike's room and design for 12 hours straight with him. How much as a creative and creative founder do you have to stay in touch with the business side of things though, like you spoke about the boardroom. Do you still kind of need to know what's going on? I like to, yeah. OK. I love to know as much as I can. But as well, I think you should keep things away from yourself because it will inflict you with, even if it's like negative things, think especially if you're so focused on building this next collection or whatever it is.

46:52If you're hearing negative feedback about some kind of product that's not working or something in the business and not working, that affects what you're doing there. So I think trying to divide them two things is crucial. And I did that with Mike from the get -go because I knew that negativity and like feedback loops on things that weren't great wasn't good for him when he's designing. So I kind of kept him just like strictly to design. But obviously we're giving facts and figures and numbers and stuff like that but trying to keep him out of it as much as they can. What was your hardest day? Oh, I remember we got a letter from a company also called Represent in Europe telling us that we were basically done.

47:40Yeah, that was the worst day in the business here. What did the lights say? just said that they owned the trademark in Europe and we were, they were just going to take us for everything we had. We couldn't carry on trading. They wanted to all leave your money. More than what we had. And that, that, like, that was in that same period that 2018 to 20 where we were just like every day we were waiting for responses and every day it was like waking up and thinking, fuck, like is it all over today? Is it all over tomorrow? Can we do what we want to do? Is this even our business anymore? Do we even own what we're doing?

48:27And like there was there was only really me, Mike and James that knew about this that was going on because I didn't want to put it out to anyone. Didn't want anyone in the business to know like this was happening or even my family. And it really fucking restricted us with everything we did, every decision we made, every garment we sold. So that was included in that really dark period. They presumably owned the trademark that you were using. So you would call yourself represent, but someone else owned the trademark for Europe. Yeah. And you didn't realize that at the time. We thought we owned it because we had the UK IP and all over the rest of the world.

49:11There was this dormant, we thought it was dormant but apparently was selling clothing section 25 or whatever. Section 25 is like the clothing category for trade. Yeah. And at first we thought, all right, we can we'll be able to figure this out. Let's get some lawyers and we'll go into it in a certain way and approach it like this and it was just constantly like, no, no, no, when like They weren't willing to. Nothing. And that was like, that was the devil that wore you up every night. But I used that as like, I guess again, it's that chip on the shoulder thing. I kind of used it as that. And I realized that like we had to get, we had to do so much and make so much of the brand that we didn't want to give it up and that when the time came to it and he gave in and he wanted to take money, we had the money to be able to do it.

50:03This sort of dark period between 2018 and sort of 2020, was did that cause it, or was that just on top of it? That was like, that was the icing on the cake. Right, so the business is stagnant and then you get the sledder through so it wants to take everything you have. And we spent so many months just sat in a back office, just figuring out what we're gonna recall the brand, how we're gonna rebrand it, and what it meant if it was not represent anymore. And we couldn't post anything on social media so it was like, we can't show this guy that the brand does well or we're making any money because then he'll want more and it'll start seeing all these other things and we just we were so in our own heads about it and like all the advice from lawyers was just just always bad news.

50:49But eventually we got him to come up come up with a figure that he wanted for it and I remember it was I think it was March 2020 wind up like signing and getting our name back. He wanted millions. Yeah. You said the lawyers were giving you bad news. What were they saying? Just like they wouldn't respond for three months. The lawyers. No, no, no, no, the lawyers. His lawyers. Okay, his lawyers. Okay. So he respond. And then they respond on the last day of like this three month period, but you'd be in the car going to like Portugal to find out if this production is ready and you'd get this long emailing your heart, I'd just drop and be like, what's going to get said?

51:27And then we'd go back to the office and sit there again and try and rethink of another name and then respond to him within a few days and then be another three months. So there was just this dark cloud above our heads all the time. When you say dark cloud, what is the dark cloud feel like? Fly on the wall again. Yeah, just you're not being able to be yourself with everything you do. Every decision you make, whether it's buying a fucking sandwich from the shop It's like that's not your money to buy that sandwich because someone else owns a name where you're making that money It'd like get you like that Did it interfere with your sleep your mental health?

52:10Everything But I was but like I said earlier it also became this driving force Well, I could use it as a thing where it was like, I don't know this probably sounds so stupid, but I just got started running in 2020 and I was like, I'm gonna go out and run 15K. And if I stop, that's like him coming for us, you know? It's like a half to do, that half to win everything we do. Whether he was just a run or it's a design selling or whatever it is, you cannot stop now. Can't be easy going through that with your brother as well, because you're going to both be somewhat protective of each other, I imagine.

52:49And it's because that dark cloud hanging over both of you at the same time. It's yeah, it ruined both of us. It ruined his the way he designed it. Yeah, everything. And then so eventually you get a breakthrough and this guy agrees to a figure. And at the time, like, you know, millions and millions of pounds, if you're making six or seven million in the business and you're saying it's not really profitable, I'm guessing the money wasn't in the bank to send this guy millions of pounds. No, but the deal went through in 2020 when we were really like pushing forward and doing everything we could to that when that thing happened, we had enough money for it.

53:20How'd you feel about him, this guy, that send you that letter? Up until then, just hate, just absolute hate because we were a bunch of young guys that were trying to build this business and we had 20 employees at the time that we'd probably have to lay off and we'd lose all the money and we'd be in debt for the rest of our life, So whatever, just because he decided that he wanted to use that name to sell nothing, basically, it wasn't selling anything.

53:49So, yeah, up until that day, I was really upset about it, but after it, I kind of just realized that it is what it is and that's how things go. And when I look back at it now, it really fucking catapulted the business because that's when we came out of our shell. And that's when we started really like building this brand into a lifestyle and not just t -shirts on the floor on an Instagram page. Did your parents know? Yeah. Do you go through that? Yeah, a little bit. I wouldn't tell them the full extent, but... Right. Just because I don't like putting pressure on other people, especially when it's not going to affect their lives as such at the time.

54:28But yeah, we would go to my mum and dad's every weekend and like it would always be a subject that came up, as he replied, as he responded, like, have you heard anything? It's just like, yeah, it fucked us. How did you deal with that? Because you're a young, you're a young guy. I remember the first time in business where I experienced anxiety. I thought anxiety was something that happens to other people. And then I remember the day very clearly where I had to let the managing director in our New York office go out to Fire. And I was sat in my apartment in Manchester thinking about that flight tomorrow where I'd asked this person to come and meet me for a coffee and I was just like riddled with anxiety for the first time ever.

55:14I was like this is this is what people talk about when they're talking about mental health. This is it. It's happening to me. I'm invincible, but it's suddenly happening. Obviously, as it always goes, it wasn't as bad as I imagined. But it's the imagination that one. Yeah, the imagination is 95 % of it, isn't it? Have you experienced that before? Mental health. I always struggle when people ask me about this, because no, not really. I've always been pretty solid on where I want to go, who I want to be, what I want to do, and just stuck to a plan. Anxiety, that thing, that period, yeah, that caused me anxiety, but not to an extent where it was crippling.

55:58But like, I kind of know, I kind of enjoy the bits of anxiety I get because you learn from it, right? Like, you going into that meeting and telling him, you're going to get fired. Once that's done, you have that relief, and then you know, next time we do it, this is how it goes. So you lose that 95 % of anxiety that happens before it or you lose a little bit of it. Yeah, I guess I get really anxious going on to podcasts like the past few days. I've been really anxious coming on here and I've done a hundred of them before. So you never lose it but how did you cope with it? Just being prepared as much as you can for whatever that thing is.

56:36So whether if that is you going to fire someone you've got to know the reasons why you're firing them. like where they can go, what's going to be best for them, what's going to be best for you, and just going into it like that. And then there's nothing really that can happen within that meeting then that can go wrong, I think. And I think that kind of clears the anxiety. On your, on the brand, you know, you've gone through a bit of a transition, as you said, you were, the brand was stagnant at one point, and then it took off again when you made a lot of sort of operational changes and sort of changes to the business model.

57:07But at the heart of the brand, there was always something special, you know. So even be it six million revenue. And I remember back what I first discovered represent. And for anyone that doesn't know, it's basically the anything I wear. So like if you ever see me out or on stage or whatever, I'm wearing represent head to toe. I mean, it's, I wear this, I usually don't wear this on the podcast, but when I'm not on the podcast, it's the only thing I'm wearing. And the 24, seven pants that you made are the only pants that I wear. Everyone knows that. Like, you know, I don't actually have another pair.

57:37That's all I wrote. Because when I discovered the brand, there was always something special about it. And it's hard to explain, right? And when you observe the brand, it's clearly turned into a bit of a cult. Right. A good cult, no one's getting murdered. It's a good cult. But what is that thing that the brand always had? Oh, that's hard. That's a hard question. It's really hard. I think it's the fact that it's like two brothers that are from Manchester that don't really belong in fashion have come up and done this really cool thing where they're proven that we don't need to just follow the rulebook and we can do whatever we want to do and sell whatever we want to sell and it's still, even though it's a huge brand now, it's still like a small thing where like the owners club for existence like which is like one range within it.

58:24One range within it where like you see someone else in an owners club hoodie like you see them two guys not at each other and it's like yeah you're part of something like we've kind of built this community that is stems from the people that are in the business but it's so much bigger and it's on a global scale but it's still pretty small. It's like a family business, right? It's run by two brothers and everyone within the business feels like family and when you buy a piece of that product we're giving them way more than what they expect. One of my main things is quality and I want the customer to think, I follow these guys kind of cool, I might try a hoodie and they get way more than they expect and that's when like they become part of that cult.

59:06You're exceeding their expectations. Exceeding their expectations way more than what they thought it would. But for you to exceed my expectations, there must be something going on in the office. Yeah. That isn't going on in the other fashion brands offices. Yeah. And what is that thing that's happening at represent that's probably not happening at your compared to this place. I think it's my innate desire to just be the best. However, we show up whether it's a pop -up, whether it's a run club, whether it's the feel of a garment or the delivery saying it's going to take three days and it takes one day.

59:39I think it's just my innate desire to just really be the best at how we show up as a brand. Exhausting. Because the reason why people don't do that is because it's easier to cut the corner. Right. It's easier to send it three days. It's easier to not really care about the quality. Of course, but like it's so personal to us and it's all we wear and it's all we obsess over every day so it's got to be good. What do people not see in terms of the effort that goes into the work look between you and your brother Michael? What is what is it that people don't see? They don't see Mike enough. I'm trying to get into come out more with like how he does things and these process and stuff, But with him, you're seeing a guy that is in a room designing all day, every day, with his graphics team.

1:00:28And it's not just him, it's the full scale of the business, the logistics, the production, the garment techs, the guys that are designing the actual garments and the content team, all of them are so bought into it. And everyone we bring up to the office, whether it's a store or another brand or whatever, like the fucking blown away. No one can believe what's going on in there. And it's this ecosystem that's been built by Spenny and us as leaders and I'm really like, blood, this mission into everyone that's in there that like we're creating something that's going to be like phenomenal and something that will last way longer than what we last ourselves.

1:01:09When you've put so much of your heart into the designs and then you go on Instagram and someone's copied it. Yeah. And it's your brother's design that they've copied. And I see people copy in your stuff all the time. How's that? It's good. It means it means the design's good, right? You felt the first time. No, it first you fucking hate it. And you think people are taking food off your table. And in some cases, that's right. And if it's a brand that's like very similar to us and they're trying to do the same, they're at the market share than yeah, it's like they shouldn't be doing that and it'll bite them in the ass when it comes to it and at the end of the day it's who's in it for the long run, right?

1:01:54Copy another people, we used to do it when we started, I'm not going to sit here and say everything was original. We've all been there and done that. I don't think, I don't think when you're at a larger scale, you do do it, but then you see brands that are huge, high luxury fashion brands go and do it to a small designer. So I think it's just what comes with life. I'm sure you'll get it with podcasts. It's the same thing, right? You just got laugh at it. Yeah, I've thought about how, you know, my journey with people like copying what you do, whatever, has been, it's been on a bit of a journey and it's difficult because it's, especially when you care so much about something, someone copies it, it really hits you in the heart to some degree.

1:02:32It's like, especially if you can remember where you came up with that idea in then, but I, but you're right, it's an inevitability and it's also, So I always think about how the most important stuff is actually the part of the iceberg under the water. Yeah. And even with design, I try and get this across to my team that like, it's not even the design really that counts. It's the whole brand. They're not buying into this word. Yeah. They're not buying into that. They're buying into this essence of like them becoming part of this club and like, they're getting this prestige and they're getting the workouts and they're all part of this whole lifestyle that we're portraying and doing and living and becoming.

1:03:11The most important stuff they can't copy. No one can copy that. They can copy a logo and they can't copy what you stand for. Right? So you've gone from being a business that was making sort of 8 million in 2018. As we sit here now, I think last year you did about about $100 million dollars, which is exceptional. Money is now large in your life. I'm sure you run the numbers and you go, shit, I'm worth this much. Money if I sold it for this.

1:03:43But do you think about how do you think about money now? I'm not going to lie and sit here and say, like, oh, money's not on an issue. Money's not a thing that drives me because it is. And I think it is with everyone. and I'll speak to billionaires and they'll say on camera that they're doing it for this and doing it for that and then they'll say off camera like I want to get fucking rich. Of course I want to be rich. Everyone wants to be rich. There's no negativity that comes with having a lot of money and I think that society and the way it's perceived now is like not a good thing that you making a lot of money.

1:04:17Like I want to represent to be doing billions. I want everyone in the business to be extremely wealthy. I want the leadership team to be able to have generational wealth. That's first and foremost, like I love that. Why not? But if you had a billion pounds now, would you be any happier? I don't measure anything on happiness. I'm happy to sit and design for six hours or on half a day to go for a run and absolutely ruin my legs. That makes me happy. I also like doing hard things and rewarding myself. And that's not really money, but like I said earlier, money never has a negative impact. I don't think.

1:05:01But on that point about giving you a billion dollars, have I give you a billion dollars and it's not gonna make you any happier? Then what's the point in the money? I think it will make me happier. Really? Yeah, of course. Dude, my family would be set forever. All my team would be set forever. like that in self makes me happy. Imagine me being able to turn up to my family and be like, okay, Dad, I know you've worked all your life. Here's this. Enjoy it. What's the exit strategy per se? I don't know anything else so why would I want to leave? How are you going to get the billion if you don't leave?

1:05:37We'll do it in profits.

1:05:41I don't want to billion dollars in my bank account, that's not needed. But when you say what's the exit strategy, when I watched you leave your business, I was always thinking you already had the podcast lined up and you're already ready to move into this other thing anyway. So it made sense for you. I don't have that. And I also don't want that. I love represent. I wake up and it's represent everything. and everything I talk to about everyone is the brand. Everything I do is the brand that would like, even bringing my fitness into this thing is my brand and like I've been able to then build two for seven to this brand, which is actually just like more of a passion project for me than building a business and even all the athletes that are involved, like I'm able to suck so much knowledge and worth out of these people personally for myself through the brand.

1:06:34So me then moving into something else or just selling a business doesn't make sense. When your identity and your profession become so intrinsically linked, there's a cost to that, right? Because it must feel, you know, you talked about back, back, bit backs being against the wall. It got, if the brand were to go down, if the revenue started to plummet and it went out of vogue or whatever they call it, like it just wasn't a pop, not popular anymore. That's linked to your like self -esteem and your like self -worth and your identity. 100 % and look, there is days where it doesn't do well. There is still days now where we'll launch products and we'll have a nightmare with it.

1:07:18I think it feels honestly. Yeah, fucks with your, fucks with your confidence. But it also gives you a realization that you're not superhuman and you can't do everything and not everything you touch turns to gold. And then you've got to go back to the drawing board and do it again. What does that look like so that you think about the last time it happened? How did it feel and how long did that feeling last? The last a few days and I'll speak to Spenny about it a lot I will then few days and he'll reassure that something else is gonna take that feeling away from it and it usually does and as well like it it's not all about Small failures along the way than there's so many exciting things that when something small trips you up a little bit you've got to realize like, no, this is for the long term, like the future is this is in 10 years, let's look back at this as like a learning curve.

1:08:06Amongst all of this, you've still got figure how to have a life, like a personal life, because regardless of how ingeniously connected you are to the brand represent, you're still going to need to have a life, you're still going to need to be a George in there somewhere. Yeah, and I never really did for a long time. Past 10 years, I've not what nothing outside of represent, but I've built represent into my life. In the moment, I think about, you know, times in my career, where I was absolutely all in on something to the point that I was like seven days a week in this fucking office. Yeah. Even the weekends when there's nothing to do on just in there because of what it makes.

1:08:42Dude, so that's when I realized so that's some days where you'd be sat at home on your own. No one would be messaging you. You can't do anything with people in the business because it's their time off with the families. That's when I realized like, fuck, I'm I'm probably too bought into this. Were you lonely? Alone, but never lonely. I never got to the point where I felt lonely. Maybe a little bit, but I would distract myself with going working out for five hours. You know? Or I'll just point my headphones in and listen into a book and just go in and come back and then the Sunday's done anyway.

1:09:24Sunday is one of my worst days because I didn't have anyone to do anything with. Like I'd gone train at a local gym where there's a big community there for the from 6 a .m. till 9 a .m. And I'd come home and just sit there and think, when's it Monday? Text my mom like, what your upsurge about? Oh, we're actually up in Scotland doing this trip. I'm like, fuck, I'm gonna see my mom. So yeah, I guess I guess there is a little bit of loneliness in there. Yeah. I was lonely, but I didn't know it at the time. I didn't know it in hindsight, because I look back at the way I was living. Right, yeah, I was filling the gap, the Sunday, Saturday, some evenings, holidays, even Christmases, like, because I was in Manchester, my family, and the Southwest.

1:10:10I was filling it with work, like, often just like pointless work. Yeah, absolutely unneeded stuff. A lot of the time, it's great, and you can go out and you can spend a few hours on your and write a load of things down that you need to do that next week or but you need a team to do anything. Like I can't get anything done without the team and that's one thing I would realize every weekend and waste in my time pretending to work. Exactly what I was doing. Relationships, romantic relationships. Let's start with non -romantic relationships in fact. You talk about having to shared people in terms of like negative influences in order to change your life.

1:10:54People ask me about this all the time, which is, you know, how important is the environment on personal and professional success? I think it's everything. Think your ecosystem that you build around you is everything. Whether that's the distance it takes you to get to the gym or the people you follow on social media. If you're following Joel from school that's out every night drinking and you're watching them stories. Even if it's 20 seconds of your day, you're wasting your time watching them stories and you're also looking at things that are just absolutely pointless to your life. So why don't you go and follow someone who's done what you want to do or is doing what you want to do or you actually inspires you and just clear it all the bullshit and you're going to be so much more in the right head space if you do something like that.

1:11:41Did you do that? Did you clear on it? Yeah. Did it a lot of times. Got a lot of bad messages from doing it. Really, you're in full of joy. Yeah, why'd you unfollow me? Explain it to him. Yeah, just tell him how it is. Just say, look, man, I don't want to watch you sit anymore. So romantic relationships then. How has that been? It must be pretty tricky. with the level of obsession that you have to maintain a healthy, happy, romantic relationship. Non -existent didn't entertain it for so many years. Tried it once. Maybe like when I was 25, 26 and just didn't work. Why didn't it work? I was obsessed with work and I was also like, I didn't know who I was and what I wanted to be and it was before that era, before that time of mine, were changed.

1:12:36So it's just I didn't like who I was and obviously that doesn't work when you're in a relationship. You got to you got to love yourself first, right? And then after that, I just kind of just said now I'm not doing it and didn't open till recently really didn't entertain at all for so many years. You got to go, friend. How about now? No, not really, kind of. When she answered this question the same way. Now that she got boyfriend. She's your own boyfriend. No. Are you a little bit, um, you're an avoidant aren't you? Do you know the attachment styles if you had about the attachment styles? No, I saw.

1:13:12Three attachment styles. You've got the secures. They're the ones that just have the perfect relationships. Right. You know, they're like no problems. They're like, you know, and then you've got the anxious ones who clingy, like maybe, like they need like, attention. Yeah, exactly. And then you've got the avoidant who kind of run. Right. You strike me as an avoidant. I don't know what I am. I really don't know. I'm definitely not an attachment one now. And I just always thought it would be a pressure on myself to then, and I didn't want to let someone else down because of what I was doing with work.

1:13:47And I don't want to have to explain to someone like, this is my business, this is my life, I'm doing this all the time when they want to see you and they want your attention and stuff. But now like hiring Spaniard having more time and actually coming moving out here. I've got time now Like my days done way before what it was at home I would work from or I'd train and then I would work from I'd be in the office at Half five in the morning. I'd leave at seven p .m. And I got to bed So there was no time but now I can wake up early get all the stuff done with the guys at home work with the guys over here building out represent an LA and then I can be done by like two three p .m a lot of days.

1:14:24So I have then time to like, I guess, date goals and things like that. And how's that going? Hey, yeah. Really? No, I'm not. Hey, I guess. You do. Because I was really. I just want to have this fucking feeling where I'm not fulfilling what I should be doing. And I'm kind of giving myself a disservice if I'm out doing something else. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs and people who run businesses get that. Well, like if you're not fully into the business, like with every minute of your time, you feel like you're not doing the right thing. And I'm starting to try and get a... Like a guilt. Yes.

1:15:02Very guilty, yeah. And that actually caused me a little bit of what we think is anxiety. I don't know if it is anxiety, but it really, yeah. Yeah, I would wake up the next day and be like, fuck, I've like spent four hours with this person that I'm not interested in seeing. and that's what I've wasted for hours, what I could have been working, could have been building the brand, could have been doing other things. Sounds like a lot. When I say a lot, I mean like a lot, I wait to carry. Like to not be able to go on a date with someone for four hours without waking up the next day, feeling anxious about how you spend your time.

1:15:35It feels like your passions become a bit of a prison. Yeah, self -inflicted prison. But I love it and it's a privilege to have it. But I'm starting learning, like I said, I've kind of got a girlfriend right now. I've got a girlfriend. You're in so much trouble. You have no idea. That's fine. She's like, oh, George is on a podcast. I have listened to this. He's going to click it. We'll do a chapter on YouTube, which is called George's girlfriend. We'll put it in the trailer. You're going to be in the museum series. That is absolutely fine. Valentine's Day yesterday and you're throwing under the bus.

1:16:13Interesting. But it does, it sounds like a little bit of a prison. Yeah. You know, not being able to take your foot off the pedal at all without feeling anxious. Are you happy? Yeah. And what does that mean? That means that I wake up. I'm fucking thankful for what I've got and what I've built and who I'm around and like my brother and my family and like I enjoy being able to just do what I want to do. And that is the work, I guess, most of the time. We know when people talk about world -class balance. What's your honest opinion of that? Bullshit. If you actually want to build something that's going to stand the test of time and make you very successful and rich and happy and bring other people with you, it's going to take everything.

1:16:58I fully believe that. I don't think you can have acid. I don't think it can be a side project and I don't think it can be something that's just three hours a day. I think you've got to go fully into it to become like high level achiever, like actually a winner. What are you willing to sacrifice for that? Everything, whatever it takes. Why not? I'm already into it now, so I've got to go and go. Look, Kobe Bryant wasn't doing three throws at fucking 3AM for no reason. You got to be the best. You've got to do everything, right? Right. But are we talking about the cost that comes with that and the sacrifice?

1:17:34Are you willing to sacrifice you not having a family yourself? For the time being, yeah, maybe later on in life when it becomes something that I can step aside from even more than, yeah. You're going to want to step aside from it. Because you're getting anxiety doing four -hour dates. I am learning. I'm learning. I'm starting to do it. Like I said, yeah. You've seen progress in that regard. Definitely. Yeah, I think it's just about building that muscle of understanding you can do other things and realizing it's not going to come crashing down if you take your foot off the brake for a second, but still knowing that you're giving it your all when you are in it.

1:18:12Is there a point where I always think about Burberry as an example, the Burberry story of how they kind of went out of fashion because they became too popular? What I'm trying to say is like, Burberry was aspirational. So lots of people start wearing it. Some less aspirational people start wearing it. People start knocking it off and selling it for super cheap in markets. Then eventually it's no longer aspirational. Because it got so popular that it becomes uncool. Do you worry about that as a risk factor for represent? So that's like a life cycle, right? right. And that comes every couple of years or every seven years, whatever they may be in the industry.

1:18:53But there's always different markets to push and pull on. Also like represent is so small in terms of size compared to Burberry. At the moment, we have a very core customer base where we kind of can identify them and we know where they are and what they're doing. And until that goes mainstream, which I think usually happens, probably at like like $2 .5300 million revenue. I don't, it's not a worry as such at the moment. I used to worry about it a lot, but like when Spenny came in, who's handling a $500 million business, he's like, we barely touch in the sides. 20 % of our revenues in the US, that's only $20 million.

1:19:27It could sell $20 million out of LA and not see the product for the next six months. You won't even see someone wearing it. So at this point, no, but it is something that we'll always think about and you've always got a limited distribution and make sure you sell it in the right places. And look, we are still like a luxury brand. We're in the best stores in the world. Like it's not like you can walk into a Paxon and pick us up. So it's still not a mainstream brand and it's expensive. I was wondering if that's less of a threat on the 24, 7 side of things, where it's more about utility and less about fashion, because everyone wears Nike.

1:20:07Yeah, and no one's like, oh my god, I'm not wearing Nike because they're right, you know? Yeah, biggest sportswear brand in the world and how are they able to tear a Travis Scott or a Virgil Oblach Jordan one that's going for $5 ,000, but they're still selling tracksuits at $20 and you can still see everyone in Gold's gym to everyone in fucking equinox wearing it. So there's just tears to everything right. There's a trickle -down system with everything I wonder if that's big is that because it's like more of a utility product than a fashion product I think so with Nike, yeah, definitely. Because there's not really like a fashion brand that's able to sell like a $20 item and then like Ralph Lauren.

1:20:46Really today. So, you've been expensive. Well, if you look at Ralph Lauren, it looks amazing from the outside and they have all these beautiful stores in like the best spots in London and New York and LA and most of their revenues used done through outlet at $20 .00, or $15 .00, or 60 % of their sales at a polar top, which I'm not exactly sure on, but that's what I hear. So there's ways you can, I guess, smoke and mirror it, disguise things and do other things. But for us, like we're pretty solid on where we want to be in terms of the marketplace and the price points and we'll grow that way rather than having to tear things to an extent.

1:21:29What are the most important, because I think most people will be listening to this conversation, in essence, because they want to know how you've done what you've done. You know, they want to know like the transferable principles behind how it's possible to scale a very successful business that are also as unique because it's quite a cult business. You've got like an incredibly cultish brand. You know, you do like run clubs and almost a thousand people will show up on the street corner or you drop something and you sell thousands in minutes. Yeah. What are those principles that you would maybe say to a 18 -year -old George or to that kid in your DMs that's asking for the principles?

1:22:10Principles that only you could have learned in hindsight. I think it's about creating the DNA of what the brand is and sticking to that, not veering off in different directions and changing everything up every so often based on trends. So I think it's about holding a DNA whether that's true thick and thin. So whether it's not right for that time or it is right for that time, there'll always be life cycles in fashion and things will go out in fashion. But if you can kind of cultivate the look that you want, that's that's first and foremost what it is. Like if you look at 247 and represent 207 looks like represent, but it's active.

1:22:44What it's not like it's a whole different thing that looks like Luda lemon. Like it is still looks like represent. So I think making sure the DNA in the brand is very like visible. Where does the DNA come from? Just personal preference, what we like to wear, what I look, feel like I look good in, what Mike feels like he looks good in, what the team love, and just building that over time. Step by step, just creating products that we feel like is even missing or we just want for ourselves to wear. And what would you say about hard work as a principal? I think it's everything. I really do think it's everything.

1:23:22I meet a lot of people, especially out here that have their little hands in different businesses, lots of different pies, but don't work hard at any of them and none of them really ever succeed or they only own 1 % when you find out they've sold the business. So I think it's all about just like going all in on something that you own. I think it's hard if you were just a small minority shareholder or in something like that, then is not really your passion. It's someone else's, sorry, it's a big group of people's. But when people think about hard work, they, you know, and people advise someone and say you have to work hard if you want to be successful, people say, that's toxic.

1:24:00Yeah, don't care. What's toxic? That word is just makes no sense. You're going to encourage people to be burnt out. Yeah, I think you can come out the other side of burnt out, So like, the more you do write, the more you can do. So if you're working hard at something and you're starting to feel like it's getting a bit too much, the pressure's a bit too much, you carry on doing it, you're going to come out of it. It's not like it's not like you're just going to end. Nothing ends. You just figure out different ways to actually make it successful or you'll something or work and you'll be like, oh, fuck, then your energy goes back up and you start going down there and it works.

1:24:41I don't think, I don't know, I think there's a lot of negativity around working hard and I don't like that. There's gonna be a kid listening right now that's like 18, 16 and they just can't find the motivation. Whatever that means. They can't find the motivation to get up and go to the gym. They've got some idea but it's still on the sofa that they had it on. Like what would you say to that young man or woman? is the first thing to get the wheels in motion. Fock motivation. I don't have motivation a lot of time. It's actually more about discipline. It's about just getting it done, get up and get it done.

1:25:22Like with anything, with work, we've working out, with creating a product, we've building a brand, with relationships, whatever it's discipline over motivation. Motivation is a small thing that can last two minutes or an hour. Motivation can come from listening to a song on your iPod. If you've got discipline, you're willing to do it every single day of your life, and knowing that it's going to take so long to do it, you just get up and do it. You don't even think about motivation. And what is discipline then? Discipline is an instruction manual, like what is discipline to you? Yeah, I guess it is an instruction manual.

1:25:59I guess it's a list of things that you must do for yourself to become what you want to be. And I guess it's a deciding factor on whether you're going to do something or not. And it goes back to what you said about like you drew a picture of yourself of what you wanted to look like. But you also wrote out like a set of principles or values that you wanted to embody. And then you're living your life by that as opposed to how you feel every day. Yeah, yeah, when you put it that way that that's what it is and eventually It becomes part of them it becomes a muscle right and you grow that muscle and you constantly like breaking it down and re -growing it and then principles just become your life You know they say like habits what is it thoughts become Habits and then habits become principles and that becomes you as a person A lot of people just don't think they're moldable, because back to what we were saying earlier, but we just don't think that we can change ourselves.

1:27:00Yeah. But your evidence of that, really remarkable evidence of that. Yeah, and there's a lot of people out there that are. There's so many inspiring stories out there on social media and in books and podcasts and stuff that all these people have completely changed their lives. It just takes a lot of time and a lot of effort. Are you confident? I'm not going to lie, I still have doubts about things a lot of the time, especially in business. But with myself, yeah, I'm confident. Would you have doubts about business? Just like you said before, maybe one day the revenue stops, maybe one day it gets too popular, maybe one day something doesn't work out.

1:27:39Maybe one day a competitor comes up at the side of you and starts taking everything from you. What if Michael turned around and said, do you know what, I'm done? He just said, I just can't deal with this anymore. I'm gonna just, you know, I'm done. I probably cry. Yeah, definitely. And I just try and figure out why, what it is, and then trying getting back in. He said, no, I'm done. And just, that was it forever. It had suck. It had suck a lot. Because since school, we've been together doing this forever. So for him, then not to be there. It'd be... It'd be pretty shitty because like, why are you doing it for them?

1:28:24Like, I fucking die for Mike. Do you know what I mean? Like, if someone had... If someone said, I'm gonna... I've got to kick you out of the business. But Mike stays, I'd go. Like, this isn't really for me, I guess it's for him. And it's kind of at that point where that will can't happen. He enjoys it too much. We love doing this. It's interesting that thought experiment, though, kind of illuminates much of the reason why you're doing it in the first place because the first thing you said was who you were doing it for then. Yeah. But if I had asked you earlier who you're doing this for, you would, I don't know if you would have said I'm doing it for Mike.

1:29:04No, I am doing it for Mike. I'm doing it for the team. I'm doing it for my family, definitely. But if the team leaves you're still going to crack on. Yeah, it's just a new team. Yeah, but it might leave. It might leave. It might leave. I don't know if I carry on. That's so difficult to answer. I had a business partner and the reason I asked that question is I thought the same. I thought, one day I played out my scenario that they quit and I remember thinking to myself the exact same thing whom I'm doing this for then. Like we started this together. Yeah. So the mission is actually me and you get the finish line.

1:29:35And you get excited when they get excited. Or like if Mike sends me a design that he's in love with and I'm like, fuck an aldehy this is insane and you just have that energy between you. If that wasn't there anymore. Yeah, yeah, suck. How important do you think having a co -founder is? I think massively, I know earlier when you said you get lonely. Like, I think that is a major block in loneliness because he is always there. And I have, like I always have him to lean into and I would never put pressure and stress on him in a personal way. But I know he's there if that happened. So I think it's a massive thing, but who you go into business with is another massive thing and like you've got to be completely different to each other.

1:30:25And even though we look the same and we seem the same, like we are very different people. What have you learnt from the bad people that you've hired? The ones that didn't work? In terms of what I say that, I mean, what if you learn is a bad quality in someone to work with to build a business with to employ? Stuck in old ways and not being open -minded to change. I think a lot of people are very restrictive when especially if you're bringing someone higher up from them, then some people will always is like backfire against that. And that's a bad quality. And it's a human nature and understand it.

1:31:04And you can always try and like change the way they think about things. But if they're not willing to accept that change, especially when you're in a growing company, like there's some people in Spanish always tells me, this is some people that'll take you to 50 mil. And there's some people that'll take you to 250 mil. And there's some people take you to a billion and it won't be the same people. And you've just got to accept that. And you've got to do everything you can, fall in people at that time. how have I ever how have I ever father go with the brand. I actually had a conversation with a founder the other day who's business I've just invested in.

1:31:34And it's the exact same conversation that nobody seems to talk about because in both your case and mine we both did the same thing. We hired a bunch of young people. Yeah. That that were probably the ones that were willing to come and work for us that were also the ones we could maybe manage. Yeah. And then the business grows. And the problem you have is the next set of talent you need to get you up to the next rung on the ladder, they need to come in above the people that were there from the beginning. And the originals don't love that because that kind of blocks their progression. That's what they think.

1:32:14That's what they think, but no, it's not true is it because they can learn from them things and then they can step up. Just takes more time or they'll get more knowledge out of it if that person does come in. But you guys getting away. Yeah, you guys getting away. And like I said, some people are not open -minded to that. And also people get comfortable. They get comfortable in that position that they're in and they don't want anyone to repolle into and they don't want to do this and do that. But that's life, right? What's next for you? This year? Yeah. Start of the air, isn't it? I guess we're building out women's wear in the brand.

1:32:52We are open in three stores this year, which will be our first stores. We've not done a store yet And it's something that we've wanted to do for so many years, but just finding the right places and being in the right space for it Why why stores? Because people are doing what's going against the way that the world's going. Everything's getting more difficult Yeah, and that's what that's I think that's a major advantage like same thing happening covered everyone pulled away from their productions and and stop selling garments for a while, whereas we will take everyone's production space and we'll start selling online.

1:33:24And then we made huge relationships with factories that we usually couldn't get in. And now we're like the best in them factories and doing everything the right way with them because we supported them during them times. But for the store aspect, it's like, we have these community all over the globe where people wanna be a part of the brand and they're showing up to run clubs and we're gonna do one in Dubai or do an NLA. Like I want somewhere for them guys to be able to come into the brand and guys and girls to come into the brand and be able to smell it and feel it and touch it and have it way more professional than them just walking into a store and seeing on a rail or seeing it on a shoe set shelf.

1:34:00So it's about creating an area where the community can come in and feel more of the brand than who we are and what we do and then hopefully roll out globally. And then 247 has a lot of focus this year. Usually it's just like a couple people in the building that are doing it and now we've got a full team working on that, we're trying to expand that. Hopefully I'd like to open some gyms with it. The concept for that is maybe next year but not this year. And then I'm building another brand called Cadence, which is an electrolyte drink, high sodium, first ready to drink sodium in a can and the market.

1:34:40And that's something that I've been working on for the past year and a half with a guy called Ross out here. And that's because going back to 2019 -20, when I started getting into fitness and lifestyle and health, like, electrolytes just became something that I was consistently taken. And I've not been sick one day since then. And I've never had my energy levels drop and I've never had bad sleep. And I don't get headaches anymore and it just seems like the salt that's in there is what is causing this constant stream of energy and it's supporting my workouts. And I love flavored drinks so I thought, why can't I make my own version of that?

1:35:23And I tested it out with a collaboration we did earlier last year and it seemed our customer really wanted it. So I was like, well, but build another brand and put it under that umbrella and see how it goes. What is the goal here? I think the goal is like I mean just generally like with all of this stuff like what's the goal? I want I want represent to be a lifestyle and not a brand. I want it to be unconventional. I want it to be more than just clothes And I say that a lot recently, but I just want it to not just be about the clothes. I want the clothes to be a buy product Why why not? No one's really done that yet.

1:35:59Everyone talks about brand I mean, what's the point like, you know, you've got drinks, you've got the 247 range, you've got the sort of original represent range. What is the finish line here? That's the good thing. I don't think there is one. I don't think there is a limit to what it can be and what this thing that started off as 25 screen printed t -shirts can become over the next 100 years or so. But do you not sit around with Michael and go listen, we'll get to two billion, we'll there and we'll just get a couple of yachts. No, like look at Ben Francis, they got valued at a billion, he's still in the business.

1:36:37It's not a big doesn't become about the money, right? It's not about the money, it's about what you're actually able to do and do some things different and like not be conventional and try and just I just want to do something that no one's done. You know, why not? And I asked these questions, you know, I'm playing demos advocate here because is I think some people think that this is all kind of like a means to an end with entrepreneurship generally is like a means to an end. But when I speak to entrepreneurs like you, it's so clear that it's much more about the journey and the journey, you're like, it just seems like you probably want to die on the journey at some point.

1:37:13Yeah. Well, you're speaking to like a lot of successful people and people that have been in it for a long time, right? You're not speaking to those guys that are walking around on the street saying, I'm going to I've built this and I'm gonna sell it in three years for six billion or yeah, yeah, yeah, this is it this may exit strategy and they've just started They never work. No one ever that never works for anybody like that's the bullshit way of thinking You're talking to the people that are really bought into their own fucking brand and they're living it and they're loving it and It's for forever I guess.

1:37:44It's a mission isn't it there. Yeah, that's their missions You're on that's kind of the tagline that I associate to you because you post that a lot Yeah, it's a mission and there's something different between a business and a mission. That's clearly what you've encapsulated. What are you, what are you good at? Are you good at business? I'm good at understanding business. But when you say good at business, what do you mean? I mean, you could define it yourself, but I guess what people typically think of as business is like operations, finance, processes. No, I'm not, I'm not. Not at all. I think that's actually will be really wonderful news to a lot of people because there's a lot of people out there that think you have to be Got a business to own a business.

1:38:27Yeah. No, I think it's about starting off and just figuring things out along the way and putting people in place of them things that you're not good at that way better than you would it. As soon as we started doing that, that's when the business took off. George, we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're going to be leaving it for. The question that's been left for you is, what is something in your life that you assume to be true, but you haven't yet deeply questioned? That's quite funny because it's something that I'm really interested in, but like don't talk about a lot.

1:39:07I guess whether like the aliens are amongst us. Not what I was expecting you to say. No, not at all. And it's completely different to what we've just talked about for the past however long, but that really interests me. The fact that like there's all these different stories and conspiracies and things that are going on constantly, especially now more than ever. And I wonder if it would change the world if one of the governing bodies or whoever it was actually came out and said, yes, this is this. And these are with us. I think it's just amazing. We're going into like the one of like simulations and AI and all that stuff now, so I saw that think I'm out with Chatchee PT the other day, Sora, where they can create, they can do text to video.

1:39:51Yeah. And that's when I, I saw the first reply to Sam Alkman's tweet said, this is the technology that was used to create us. And it just wobbled my brain a little bit because I thought, now we're getting to a point where we've got these Apple Vision Pro headsets and we're able to make video with text. And I'm looking at this woman in HD, that's like 85 years that was made by typing a couple of words and you just assume any rate of improvement and eventually you get to something that is indistinguishable from the world. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it might even be a video game. I think there's, I've heard Elon talk about this and he's like, he talks about it, he said so much that he's had to ban the conversation.

1:40:32Right. Because you fall into a little bit of a hole. Yeah. You literally have no idea who we are, what we're doing, why we're here. And yeah, Is there an alternate universe or are we just living in someone else's head? I don't know. So interesting. Thank you, Georgia. Thank you for a number of reasons. Thank you for dressing me for the last three years because I think you're close to the best. No, thank you. It's a very subjective thing, but in terms of quality and consideration. Sometimes you can tell when someone has gone the extra mile in a piece of work, right? Pretty much always, when they've thought about things from first principles, they've really thought about all the decisions and that's what represent has always been to me.

1:41:11A brand that always thinks about the decisions and it's different in every way. As I said from an end -to -end experience, it's different. You can tell that the brand comes from somebody somewhere's heart. You can tell the difference again with brands where someone didn't really care about the process and they were maybe copying something else. And then there's this other brand called Represent where it's clearly coming from someone somewhere's heart in their own unique vision. That's why I've always loved the brand. And that's why I think you've been able to cultivate this cult, because there's something in humans where they can tell the real from the not so real, they can just feel it, we can feel it.

1:41:49And that's what represent has always been. And that's why I'm always been so fascinated by you and your brother. And a huge supporter of both of you. And unlike a human level, you're just both just fucking great guys. I appreciate it. And I say it up behind your back all the time, I go, that guy's a great guy. He's just like a really nice humble human being. And on paper, you know, people might let him go. He has a lot of reasons not to be. This guy looks like fucking something that was literally drawn on a piece of paper by an alien. But he's got this incredible business, but he's a really good human being.

1:42:16And so it's Michael. So thank you for the inspiration. Keep doing what you're doing because the mission that you're on is inspiring many other people to start missions of their own. I think that's something that the world needs a lot more of. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me on. I loved it.