Harvard Professor: "10,000 Steps A Day" Is A LIE! Revealing The 7 BIG LIES About Exercise, Sleep, Running, Cancer & Sugar!!! Daniel Lieberman

25:45I almost think we've come to assume that these are inevitabilities of life. Yeah. We'll get cancer. One of us will get, yeah, someone in here is going to get Alzheimer's. And that's the way we live. So we're, we're preparing to medicate when that day comes. That's right. I get good for bid diagnosed with something. That's absolutely right. In fact, that's what medical students today are taught, right? If you go to medical school today, your taught that is people get older, their blood pressure goes out. I can tell you that's just not true. It's in the Western world where people are physically inactive and you'd craft diets that their blood pressure tends to go up.

26:16But there are plenty of people, I'm actually one of them, right, who don't have high blood pressure as they age. And guess what's the best way to prevent getting a high blood pressure as you age? It's, you know, it's not like a broken record. But we have this idea that as you get older, yes, you're going to, you're, and we're lucky, right? You know, because we don't die from smallpox on March 30, we're lucky to get cancer when we're 60, right? What we've done is we've confused diseases that are more common with aging, with age being a cause of those diseases in the first place. And they're not inevitable, inevitable diseases.

26:47And many of them are preventable. And, and the problem is that in our society, we, we don't value prevention very much. We, we may talk about it, but we don't really put our money where our mouth is, right? And in the US, which is arguably one of the worst healthcare systems, it is the worst healthcare system among the industrialized Western world, we spend approximately 3 % of our budget, our medical budget on prevention. And yet when people walk into a doctor's office, 75 % of the time, the disease is according to the Center for Disease Control, a preventable disease. So we essentially spend nothing to prevent diseases that overwhelm our system and cause enormous amounts of misery.

27:28It's a completely backward stupid system. And, and, and the good news is it's not that hard to prevent a lot of these things. It takes well power and takes education and it takes access to good quality food and whatever. But, so, in one sense, it's very depressing. And the other hand, the optimist in me says, you know, we really can do something. And people who, even if without, even if they're not wealthy or whatever, I mean, they're simple things that everybody can do to improve their health outcomes. These diseases we, we encountered today as we age and just generally in our society, when you look at hunt together, hunt together our communities, where you look at certain tribes around the world, maybe in Africa, do you see the same, the same types of diseases in the same occurrence, level of occurrence?

28:16Or is there some diseases which just don't like, I'm wondering if like, if, because you know, cancer seems to be so popular for, as the disease and Alzheimer's and these kinds of things. So I wonder, has that always been the case throughout human history? And is that the case in other parts of the world? That is such a good question. So, first of all, some of these, some of these diseases are really hard to measure in non -western populations because we don't have the diagnostic tools. So nobody really knows how common cancer is in, in a lot of parts of the world. Right? There's just not, the data don't exist.

28:46That said, when you make estimates and you do look at the studies that are out there, and even if you're looking in, in historical records and in places like Europe where people have been keeping track of this, there is no question that cancer rates have been rising and that cancer rates are much, much more common in the western world. There's a strong association between cancer and wealth. And that's because cancer is basically a disease of energy, right? When your cells, because cancer is basically natural selection going to rye in the body. It's when cells start competing with each other in ways that cause, basically, and start, you know, going, you know, multiplying and dividing out of control, right?

29:22It's a kind of natural selection. And what is it that those cells are doing? They're competing for energy. And when you have more energy, like when you're eating more and being less physically active, you can, you basically feed those cells. So, so cancer, a high levels of insulin, insulin is highly related to cancer, high insulin levels are carcinogenic. High levels of body, of energy, you cause women, for example, to increase the amount of estrogen and progesterone that they produce. Men produce more testosterone. These are, and these are, these are hormones that, of course, are for good for reproduction.

30:01But there, but again, we have, we evolved to be, times many babies as possible, right? But that doesn't mean that translates into health, right? So more estrogen, more progesterone increases risks of say breast cancer, or testosterone increases the risk of prostate cancer. So if you look at most diseases, right? People are more physically active. They have lower levels of estrogen, progesterone, testosterone. They have lower levels of insulin. They have lower levels of blood sugar. All of these depressed cancer rates. And on average, people who are physically active have much lower rates of almost every single kind of cancer that you can think of.

30:34Women who walk 150, you know, get 150 minutes of physical activity a week have on average about 30 to 50 % lower lifetime breast cancer risks than people who are sedentary. And yet for some reason, this is not a well known fact. And we have epidemiological data, we have mechanistic data, we understand how and why it works. And yet, and how often do you hear about cancer prevention? We talk about treating cancer, which is all important if I get cancer. I would like it treated too. Thank you very much. But why don't we spend more energy and activity and have more education about how to prevent cancers in the first place?

31:14Physical act, I've never had that before. So that's really helped me to add more value to exercise in my mind. You're talking there about insulin levels. And how that has there's a link between your insulin levels and your chances of getting cancer. Sugar. Glucose. Inflammation. Bad. Yeah, I mean, I mean, look, if you want to, if you want to take like the three things you should, you know, if you really care about your health, don't smoke, right? That's kind of obvious. I think everybody knows that. Get some exercise. I don't think you need me to tell you that, right? And and cut down on sugar on foods that are high in sugar and low in fiber, right?

31:56That, you know, what we call high glycemic foods. Those are the foods that elevate your your your blood glucose levels, your insulin level shoot up. And insulin, insulin, the basic function of insulin is is it's what we call an anabolic hormone. It's it's job is to is to store energy glucose glucose, but also fat. Okay. All right. Okay. So insulin insulin does is to get energy into cells. So it's like a taxi. It's like an Uber. It's like a taxi. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's not a tax. It's like a it's telling other cells to do that. So insulin, for example, binds to other cells that are the actual taxis.

32:35So it's like it's like calling the Uber, I would say, maybe, right? And insulin is, you know, it's the fun. So when you when you eat food, insulin levels go up because this job is to store that energy. And when you exercise, insulin levels go down because because you want to then use that energy, right? So so so when cells get more energy, they're more prone to going out of control, basically. And and and inflammation is caused by basically by getting that you store so much fat in your cells that those fat cells start to swell. And when those so swell like anything, right? They start to rupture.

33:12They get damaged. And that damage attracts the immune system. And the immune system gets turned on and that causes inflammation. So so too much at a posity, too much fats, you know, over swollen fat cells is the is a primary cause of systemic inflammation. And inflammation is like the slow burn in our bodies that causes widespread damage to pretty much everything you can think of. And it turns out that so the two ways to deal with inflammation are one to prevent it, right? So don't eat foods that are pro inflammatory like anything with a lot of sugar, basically, right? I mean that you know the sugar is highly inflammatory.

33:49Or trans fats are highly inflammatory. But also turns out many people don't know this, but you also want to turn down your immune system, right? You want to turn the dial down. And I don't just give you one guess what it is that does that exercise. And the way it does that is that when you when you're physically active, you're using the same amount of fat. And using your muscle cells, it turns out muscles are also an endocrine organ. Your muscles are producing a molecule called interleukin six, IL -6, that in low levels is pro inflammatory, but at high levels, it's actually anti inflammatory. It turns down inflammation.

34:25And your muscles because a third of your body is muscle, right? When you go for a run or or swim or bike ride or whatever, you're producing a ton of this stuff. And it turns down levels of inflammation. So people are physically active, even if they're overweight are actually controlling and regulating their inflammation. And we never evolved to regulate inflammation because in this way, because we never evolved to be physically inactive until recently nobody was physically inactive until they were dying, right? So we never evolved an alternative mechanism to regulate our inflammation other than physical activity.

34:58And we didn't live in a world with this much sugar. We never lived in a way. I mean, it's astonishing. You pay more money for foods today that have less sugar added. Right? I mean, that's just ridiculous, right? Because it's so cheap. And sugar is, you know, we lost everybody loves sugar. I mean, I've gone hunting with hunter gathers, you know, forging the hudogathers. And I can tell you that they're honey addicts, right? I mean, I've gone out with these guys and they go from the, you know, if they fail on their hunt, like by the way, I mean, I'm not sure if they're going to be able to do that.

35:28But by 10 or 11, if you haven't killed an animal, you know, that's it for the day, right? And then it comes, it turns from being a hunting expedition to a honey collecting expedition. And they'll go from hive to hive to hive, get smoke, burn out the bees and just gorge themselves on more honey than I could possibly imagine to eat. Except these are lean physically active hunter gathers and they handle it just fine. But it's, you know, it's the it's the paleolithic equivalent of, you know, eating Mars Mars all day long. But they've been out doing physical activity for how long? Yeah, I mean, the average day is about 15 kilometers of walking with some running.

36:05Yeah, so, so they're, you know, they can they can cope with it. How many hours is that? Oh, that's two to three hours probably. Okay, so from that I have gone at that I need to do 15 kilometers a day for two or three hours every day. Well, remember, it's not a prescription, right? So that's that kind of like the paleo fantasy sort of naturalistic fantasy that if you live like a hunter gather, somehow your, your role will be perfect, right? That's basically what the paleo diet is sort of all about, right? And that's not true either. Yes, you need to be physically active, but it turns out that certain amount, you know, if you're any any physical activity is better than none, right?

36:44And if you look at that kind of any curve of any output, any health health, health outcome like how many years you live or whether you're less likely to get cancer or heart disease or whatever, you know, any little physical activity your curve starts to fall quickly, right? Your likelihood of cardiovascular disease starts just, you know, a few minutes a day of the exercise has big benefits. But eventually that curve flatens out, right? And it flatens out well before the hunter gather a level. So you don't need to be a hunter gatherer in terms of physical activity to get the benefits. This is a, I've asked a few people this question.

37:16I don't think everyone's anyone's really answered it, but I suspect you might be able to. If you were responsible for redesigning the nature of our modern world to make it more matched and less mismatched, what are some of the first things you would do to help society benefit in terms of our health?

37:39I think about this all the time because we don't seem to be turning around. We seem to be hurtling in a direction kind of unconsciously towards artificial intelligence and moving less and being more sedentary and taking pills more to fix everything, and we're going to be doing it longer than ever before. And if we were to redesign it, blank canvas, piece of paper. That's a tough question because we've essentially given ourselves what we want. I can go into a supermarket and I mean, I can do something that's unimaginable until recently. I can have, I can have basically anything I can eat better than the king of France, you know, a few generations ago.

38:23I can, I mean, here I can New York. There's like every cuisine possibly available to me. I don't ever have to climb the stairs. I can take elevators. I mean, we've made our world so convenient and comfortable and yet there are consequences to many of the things that we crave and want. So in an ideal world, you don't want to, you don't want to, I mean, you have to honor and respect people's desires, right? I'm not a, I don't believe in preventing people from taking the elevator, right, or forcing them to, you know, eat whole grain bread is supposed to white bread, right? But if you banned white bread and you banned elevators other than for those people that need it for accessibility reasons, et cetera.

39:13They would do better. Over the long term, they'd be healthy and happier. They would, right. So the, it's really a balancing act between, between respecting people's liberties and choices and educating them and helping them. So in my world, I would, I would do more to nudge people, right? I would, instead of banning sugar, I would tax it more. Instead of pushing all kinds of foods on people, I would push, I mean, why don't we advertise healthy foods the way we advertise unhealthy foods, right? I mean, once the last time you saw an ad for just how amazingly healthy asparagus was, right? But that doesn't get the part of my brain going, does it?

40:05No, it doesn't. But we could do more to nudge and encourage and help people, right? You don't have to ban sugar and cookies, right? The way some people, but, but, but simply promote and help people help themselves, right? Most people want to eat healthier food. Most people want to exercise, but they live in a world where it's hard to do it, and they live in a world where there are very few incentives. I would make it such that healthy food would be as, as inexpensive as, as unhealthy food and make sure that that people had incentives and, and make it also fun to be physically active. Like, for example, every, I mean, who doesn't like to dance, right?

40:46Every culture in the world has dancing, right? Dancing is a form of physical activity. It's social, it's fun, it's engaging. Why don't we have, why doesn't every, every town in America sponsor dancing, right? You know, it would probably do an enormous amount for people's physical health and their mental health. I mean, we could do that. I mean, that's just one example, right? So I would, I would, I would, I would, and why is it that in medical schools, doctors don't learn about, they don't, they don't study nutrition, and they don't study exercise, and they don't learn, because that's, because our medical system is designed to treat people after they get the food.

41:23It's sick rather than prevent people from getting sick. So, so we need to, you know, reverse how we fund healthcare, right? And so schools of public health are these kind of little marginalized places where, you know, where, where great ideas go to die, right? And, and medical schools where all the money is, right? And doctors aren't taught to, to, to, to, to, to, to, I mean, their entire fields of medicine that don't have the word preventive associated with it. I mean, you've heard of preventive orthodontics or preventive, you know, optometry or preventive, you know, preventive orthopedics. I mean, it just doesn't exist, right?

41:56So we, we could do a lot more and, and have enormous benefits. Chapter 11 of this book you talk about someone who has taken their own approach to getting people moving and exercising in their own business. How's the Bjornborg company? I love that. Bjornborg company. Can you tell me about that? Yeah, so I was, so I was, I was curious about this idea of how to get, how to help people be more physically active, right? And again, you know, my, my fundamental hypothesis is that we evolved to be physically active, either when it's necessary or rewarding. And so I was curious if there's any, any companies in the world that have made physical activity necessary.

42:36And that was, what if we forced people to be physically active? And I found one, so far I think there's only one company in the world that I know of. Maybe there's some others, but this is the only one I've ever found so far. And it's the Bjornborg sports company in Sweden, where the CEO of the company is this crazy sort of exercise addict. And he, he requires every member of the company to exercise. They have sports hour every Friday and 11 o 'clock. So I actually, when I, when I was searching around them, I was thinking, you know, right, working on the book, I actually, I got, I thought, I found an article about them.

43:09And I, you know, I clicked on the, on the company website. And you know how most companies have a little contact us. So I clicked on the contact us. And I wrote a little note saying, you know, dear Bjornborg company, I'm a researcher and I'm a Lucien Abalgis. I mentioned exercise and I'm fascinated by how your company requires people to exercise. Could I learn more? And the next morning there was an email from the CEO of the company saying, why don't you come and visit us? So, so I hopped on a plane a few months later. Went to Sweden and they let me, he was so nice. He just let me just go anywhere in the company.

43:43And I went to sports hour and I, I talked to employees throughout the company. And it was fascinating. I mean, a lot of the employees of the company. First of all, a bunch of people apparently left the company when he took over a CEO and required this. But it doesn't matter who you are, you could be working in the mail room, you could be the CEO, you could be a visiting board member. Whoever you are, if you're there on Friday, you have to go exercise with them. And they have this pretty serious kind of exercise thing. And apparently some people quit. But, but, but pretty much everybody else said, you know, it's actually a pretty damn good thing.

44:15Do you agree with that approach? Well, yes and no. Every university in the world used to require and every school, right? Supposedly requires exercise, right? I'm sure you had physical exercise, you know, physical, some kind of phys ed required in your school. Those standards are slipping around the world and more and more kids are doing less and less in school. Universities were, are no exception. It used to be that all universities required some degree of physical education. Mine was no exception. In fact, Harvard was a leader in that back in the, you know, 100 something years ago. And over the, since basically the 1970s, that's basically disappeared.

44:54Although most students, if you ask them, they think, yeah, that's actually a pretty good idea. So, I don't know, maybe we can bring back exercise as a, and the thing is that if you get used to it, right? And you're young. You're more likely to do it in your old, right? Because you set, those are the, that's the age in which your habits become, well, your habits become your habits, right? And so, there's a certain age where, where if you can keep, keep, yes, get that making it, making a habit, you're probably more likely to continue doing it for the rest of your life. We kind of see it as overreach, don't we?

45:28I was thinking about if I was to announce one of my companies that everyone is now required to exercise. It would seem like, like tremendous overreach. If I announce that everyone is required to read a certain book, they did it and it'd be fine. And it might be seen as a positive thing, right? It might be a representation of our values that we are learners and we're innovators and we keep nourishing our brains. But you turn around to your team and said, this is all required to go for a run every day or something. People would, it just feels personal. Yeah, like that's not the responsibility of an organization to tell me to go exercise.

46:01But we have, we have company, you know, retreats. I mean, we do all kinds of stuff where people require to do it. So, I don't know, I challenge you, try it. What we do, what we've always done, we even do it with this team. The driver's CEO team is about 30 people. So, we have a fitness channel in the company Slack channel, the communication channel that we use. And in that channel, and we did this at my previous company as well, where we would enable and facilitate. So, we, we, someone started a woman's football team, so we enabled it and promoted it. Someone started a men's football team, so we enabled it and promoted it.

46:35And this also applies to non physical sort of exercise related clubs like someone starts the reading club. And we enabled it and promoted it. And we also paid for it. If they need to, if they need new kits, for example, when the women's football team needed one to have their uniforms, we paid for it. Because we saw a huge value in terms of staff retention, connection community and all those things that actually lead up to staff retention. If we could have more social clubs outside of the office, you know, if you're thinking about leaving a job, there's a number of things you weigh up, the pay, the job, whatever.

47:06But you also weigh up how the community, like the group of people I love and how much they bring to my life. And I actually think in the remote working world, it's something that CEOs and leaders have really not paid enough attention to. That if they really want to retain their team members, they should have them together as much as they can. And even outside of the office, bonding in a world where screens are on the rise and pubs are on the decline in social activities and churches are on the decline, there's less sort of institutions that connect to socially work has a big opportunity to do that.

47:36So one of my big things always in my head is like, how can I get the team members and my companies to hang out more? And a multiplier to that is how can I get them to hang out more and move their bodies more because then they'll feel better. Well, think about it, it's play. Play, yeah, exactly. And play is another thing we evolve to do, right? What kids play and we're one of the few species that plays as adults, right? And what is play? Play is a way in which you learn cooperation, you build community, but you also move your body, right? In the first chapter of your book, you said that you went to visit the Native American tribe and I'm going to try and pronounce this.

48:14The Tara Humor. And they're famous for their long running. Yes. What did you learn about running from them? Well, they have been famous for well over 100 years. I mean, many people have gone to study the Tara Mara and have commented on their amazing ability to run. But what I really learned from them is that for them, physical activity is spiritual. You know, there's this book born to run that describes their running and calls them a hidden tribe of super athletes. They're not hidden and they're not super athletes. And the one thing that the book missed was that the main impetus for the running, they knew these famous long distance races, is that it's a form of prayer.

49:01It's really very beautiful. And it's a metaphor for life. And it's also an opportunity to bat in sports and all that. It's all wrapped into one. And what I've learned was that this actually used to be almost universal among Native American populations, right? Native American tribes. Everybody had long distance races and ball games and they were all had a spiritual element. And it's just that they've retained their traditions because they're in a very remote part of Mexico that's essentially inaccessible. We all used to do this. All humans used to do this. In fact, if you think if you look around the world, every population has a tradition of endurance to its events.

49:46Some of the subject that you talk about in your book, but also outside of your book, is how we used to run in terms of, you know, I was at the foot doctor. What's it called? I don't know what they're called. Pediatrist. That's what I said. But pediatrist. But I went to the pediatrist the other day because I got this. What's it called when you're going to point at my foot? This part of my foot here started to get lots of pain. Planta for shaders. That's it. Planta for fashitis. I started to get some planta for shiitis. That's fun. And it was just this ongoing pain. And they prescribed me some insoles.

50:24I was done on a couple of machines, some soft stuff, and they measured my foot and took this scan of it and said, right, basically, you're standing wrong. Your arch is a bit too flat. Take these insoles and wear them in all of your shoes. And I just, I always think in these moments when someone prescribes me something, that's not natural. I go, why? Like, where did I go wrong? And I think that's the key question. Where did I go wrong? Who lied to me? To the point now that at 30 years old, I have these bloody insoles that have to put in all my shoes. Because presumably, that's not natural. Presumably my ancestors don't have bloody insoles.

51:02Yeah.

51:06So, planta for fashitis is what I would call a mismatch disease, right? Disease that's more common or more severe because our bodies are inadequately adapted to modern environments. And in your case, and as is the case with a lot of people, you have a weak foot. So, we, you know, you look like you go to the gym. Looks like you're a pretty fit person, right? I'll make a bet. You strengthen pretty much every muscle's group in your body except your feet. Right? And come on. Well, but we don't. One of the reasons is because we encase our feet in stiff -sold shoes that are very comfortable. And the reason the shoes are comfortable is that your foot muscles have to do less work when you're using those shoes.

51:42Right? We have shoes that are stiff -sold, they have arch supports, right? And your foot has four layers of muscles in them. And those muscles are supporting your arch. And at the bottom of those four layers of muscles is this layer of connective tissue, the plantar fascia. And the problem with the plantar fascia is that if it stretches too much, it, like anything else, right? It gets inflamed. But it's got almost no vascularization, right? So, it's very hard for it to repair itself when it gets inflamed. To prevent plasher plantar fasciitis, the best way to preventing it is having a strong foot, a strong foot, a healthy foot.

52:15So the way to treat the disease on the long term is to strengthen your foot. But if you want to just alleviate the symptoms, that's what your podiatrist did. By giving you an insol, right? It's basically preventing your arch from collapsing as much, making it more comfortable. So your plantar fascia gets stressed less, and so it can kind of alleviates that stretching and hence the pain, right? So that's a typical example of what I call dis -evolution. It's what, what happens when you treat the symptoms of a mismatch disease rather than their causes or preventing their causes. So podiatrist are a bit like drug pushers in that, is that, right?

52:54Because they're essentially putting your foot in the cast, right? And then, for the rest of your life, you kind of have to keep using them, unless you strengthen your feet. So there's nothing wrong with those treating the symptoms. I mean, pain is no fun. So where are the insoles, right? To kind of alleviate the pain, but also work on strengthening your foot. And I think you'll find that the plantar fasciitis will disappear and never come back. So the plantar fasciitis has now healed after about a month of wearing the insol. I no longer have the insoles with me here in New York, and I don't have the many of my shoes.

53:33Because I've also taken a bit of time off running on my feet. I was playing a lot of football. So now I'm at a point where I can go to the preventable stage, prevent it happening again. And you said to strengthen my foot. How does one strengthen their foot? Good question. So there are some exercises. They're kind of foot -doming exercises and things like that. I can send you some links to videos showing you some good foot strengthening exercises. So that's one way to do it. But the other way is to wear more minimal shoes. To wear shoes that aren't stiff -sold, that don't have arch supports. Go barefoot a lot.

54:07And that will naturally strengthen the muscles in your foot. Because you'll have to use those muscles. So you've ever gone for like a long walk or run on a beach. And afterwards your feet are kind of tired. The reason your feet are tired is because you're now walking on a compliant surface. It's not stiff. So your muscles are having to work more to stiffen your foot to push you forward. Jack, could you go grab the black shoe out of my bag? I just want to show you something. So wearing shoes that aren't has stiff -sold and they don't have arch supports will slowly strengthen your feet. But, and this is a huge butt.

54:38If you do too much too fast, your plantar fasciates will come roaring back and you'll hate me. You'll never forgive me. Because there's a Vivo barefoot. I wore the same shoes. You've got the same shoes on. Great shoes. Those are wonderful shoes. Those are exactly the kind of shoes that will help strengthen your feet. These are a fairly new addition in my life. And they feel really strange. You can kind of feel the floor. It's exactly what you've described as. But you can transition. If you have a weak feet, which I'm guessing you do, if you suddenly, that's the only shoe you wear all the time, you'll probably regret it.

55:16So slowly, slowly, slowly increase the percentage of time. Just like anything else. If you suddenly decide to lift huge weights that you can't lift before, you'll hurt yourself. The same thing is with your feet. So slowly it does it. But if you do it gradually and slowly and carefully, you can build up the strength in your foot and you'll be a happier person. And this goes back to everything else you've said about how choosing comfort, choosing to have a nice supportive shoe, has actually just kind of deferred a problem off into the future for me. It's the same with diets, the same with avoiding exercising, being sedative tree and all these other things.

55:51Where when you choose the easy road in the short term, which is this wonderful cushion shoe I've chosen, the muscle hasn't built up in my foot and I've paid the price. Correct. So I need to again choose discomfort more in the short term, go up the stairs, run barefoot, to avoid the consequences later down the line. Yeah, I mean, I don't think you have to run barefoot, but though I can be fun. But yeah, I mean, I can think of plenty of other examples. We love comfort, but comfort's not necessarily good for us. When you look at these tribes, do you know who liverking is? Huge massive muscles, talks about ancestral living.

56:31What do our hunter gatherer ancestors look like in terms of that? Not like him. No, I mean, look, think about it. Muscle is really expensive, right? It's actually a super expensive tissue, about a third of our body's muscle and it's using up about, about, you know, a fifth or more of the calories that we're expending, right? Just sitting there, not even using them, right? They're very costly tissues, right? And so if you have more muscle than you need, you're basically adding to your, your cost of living, right? And if you're a hunter gatherer or even a subsistence farmer living on the margin of food security, having more muscle than you need is actually deleterious, right?

57:11Remember, the only thing that natural selection cares about is how many offspring you have who survive and reproduce. Doesn't care if you're strong or healthy or nice or loved or, you know, fun or whatever. It only cares about whether you have grandchildren. That's it, right? That's that's cold calculus of selection. My brain is going, if I have big muscles, I'll have more romantic opportunities, and I'll have grandchildren. Well, only up to a certain point, right? Now, more muscles if they attract the opposite sex and make them want to reproduce with you, yes, that could be a benefit. I'm not so sure how much women are attracted to the liver king.

57:46And that's not something I even want to know the answer to, but I certainly shouldn't ask him. But there's a reason we have use it or lose it, which you mentioned earlier, right? Because when we need, when we increase our demand, we increase our capacity, right? When you go to the gym and you work out, right, you build muscle, but if you stop using those muscles, you lose it. And that's an adaptation, right? Because you don't want to spend extra energy on muscles you're not using, right? So you want enough, but not too much. You want to be economical with muscle mass, right? And so if you look at the data from hunter -gatherers, and people have done that, they've done grip strength tests, et cetera, and all kinds of other fun things with like many Olympics, and we've done this too, people are reasonably strong, but they're not super strong, and they're not buff and built and bulked and all that sort of stuff.

58:36They've got enough muscle to do what they need to do, but no more. And the reason why people find muscle attractive anyway is because it's this evolutionary signal, isn't it, of reproductive value and resources, maybe, and the ability to go out and, you know what I mean? Why does a woman, for example, find a man with muscles or in good shape attractive in 2023 when we're not hunting for gazelle? Well, I'm not a psychologist, or so I'm not sure if I'm qualified to answer that, but I could venture the guess that obviously if you're trying to, you know, we pair bond as a species, and we have been for millions of years probably.

59:17You want to pair bond with somebody who's going to, because we also have cooperation and food sharing, right? You want to pair bond with somebody who's going to be able to, you know, bring home the bacon, literally and figuratively, right? But bringing home the bacon does not mean looking like Arnold Schwarzenegger, at least back in the day, Arnold Schwarzenegger back in the day, right? Bringing home the bacon back in the day meant being a persistent hunter, being able to run long distances and being moderately strong. So they looked more like a marathoner or a football player than they did a weightlifter.

59:46So it's conceivable that someone who is really, really big is actually less attractive because they wouldn't have been able to hunt and run and hunt as well as someone who is a little bit. Yeah, you also have to feed them more, you have to feed them more too. Yeah. And that's a, you know, these are precious calories. So I'm going to guess that, look, if you look in non -western populations, you don't see physics like that. This is a privilege of people who are able to go to gyms and, you know, you know, way powder shakes and all that kind of stuff to kind of build their crazy muscle mass. But it's not something that our ancestors were able to do on a regular basis.

1:00:30Q1 is often when businesses start implementing new systems and processes in hopes of creating efficiencies for the year ahead. And over the course of my career, I've learnt just how crucial having the right systems in places, one which has helped me across many of my investments is Net Suite. They're also a sponsor of this podcast. Net Suite is the number one cloud financial system through their streamlined platform. You'll find all of your accounting financial management inventory and HR in one place. Their technology has been a real game changer, especially for my team at Flight Studio. As over the last year, we've moved out of startup mode and into scale at mode.

1:01:05We no longer have to juggle multiple systems and having everything together has reduced the number of manual tasks and arrows. Over 41 ,000 businesses have chosen to future proof their business with Net Suite. So if you'd like to learn how it can help your business, head to NetSuite .com slash Bartlett and free download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning. That's NetSuite .com slash Bartlett. There's another myth that are you bust, which I thought was really interesting, because I think I know a lot of people that have used this as a reason not to run. They say it's really bad for your knees.

1:01:37Oh man, that gets me so mad, right? I mean, I hear this from doctors all the time, right? Oh yeah, running is bad for your knees. Now it is true that knee injuries are the most common running injuries. But arthritis, such as really what they're usually talking about, it's absolutely definitively not true that running increases rates of knee cartilage damage in arthritis. So arthritis is caused by cartilage wearing away in a joint, right? And it's a myth that running actually increases cartilage damage. If you have arthritis, running is excruciating and problematic. But if you don't have it, running actually, if anything, may be slightly preventive.

1:02:18Because cartilage joints, like everything else, benefits from being used, right? And so physical activity actually helps promote strong and healthy joints. We used to think that it just caused them to wear away, but actually, you know, like cars, you know, wearing away, they're tires. But now we know that actually physical activity promotes repair mechanisms in cartilage, just as it does in other tissues in the body. And of course, the other thing about running is that I think a lot of people run incorrectly today. So that's why we started studying barefoot running a few decades ago, because if humans have been running for millions of years, most of that time we were running barefoot.

1:02:58So we're kind of curious, how did people run before shoes? And what we learned was that today shoes have these cushioned heels that enable you to essentially run the way you walk, right? You land on your heel. And everybody who's barefoot sometimes lands on their heel, but people who are barefoot often, more often than not land on the ball of their foot and then let their heel down. It's called a forefoot strike or a midfoot strike. And when you do that, we worked out the biomechanics of that and published a paper in the cover of Nature, showing that when you do that, you actually prevent your foot from crashing into the ground, causing it what's called an impact pick, a colligional force.

1:03:34You run lightly and gently. So if you were to take your shoes off and run up Lexington Avenue here, I guarantee you you would not be landing on your heels. Within a few steps, you'd start landing on the ball of your foot because it hurts less. And so that's how we evolved to run. We've evolved to run in a push in a way that doesn't involve slamming into the ground with every step. And that causes less force around your knee. The trade -off though, because nothing comes for free, everything has trade -offs, is that it's harder on your ankles. Your calf muscles and your killeys have to do now a lot more work to let your heel down.

1:04:13And so people who switch from heel striking to forefoot striking often have a killeys tendon problems, they get calf muscle problems, they don't do it properly, they'll get, their foot muscles aren't strong enough, they'll get all kinds of foot problems. So you can't just suddenly become a barefoot runner and start forefoot striking. If you're going to switch, you have to switch gradually and slowly and build up strength and learn to do it properly. Another thing people do is they tend to run like a ballerina, high up on their toes, that's really hard on your ankles and your calves. So you've got to do it properly, but it can have enormous benefits.

1:04:43And we know, again, if you run that way, there's put much less force on your knees. And again, knees are where people get injured the most. So I think a lot of knee injuries come from the way in which we run. So would you recommend, if you can, to run more barefoot, especially if you have those kind of shoes we just discussed? Well, I think what matters is how you run that, what's on your feet. So I would say a barefoot style. How do I learn to run in a new way, though? Well, I mean, there's some tricks. So one of them is, first of all, I don't know how you run. So maybe you already run just fine.

1:05:22But a barefoot style tends to be a high stride rate or a high stride frequency. So 90 strides per minute or 180 steps per minute, roughly. 170 to 180 steps per minute is about right. Relatively short strides. So you're not throwing your leg out. And to me, the most important thing is not what we call over striding. You ask any coach on the planet, they'll say over striding is bad. Overstrides when you throw your leg out way in front of you and your land. And that leg is a stiff leg. So that stiff leg means more force, right? And it's harder on your knees. And so a good runner lands with their shank, with their tibia vertical.

1:06:07So their ankle is below their knee. When you do that, pretty much everything will work out properly. It'll mean that you won't land hard on your heel. It'll mean that your leg will be acting like an excellent spring. You won't produce a lot of breaking force. It's a, it's a, it's, to me, I think the most important skill in running is not to over stride. And so I actually don't, so don't worry about how you're going to hit the ground. Just worry about your over stride. If you solve your over stride, you're more likely to run well. What do you think some, what's the best kind of sort of cardiovascular exercise for the promotion of good health?

1:06:47Because I've been doing some cross fit staff. I've been doing some hit workouts. I've been trying not to run because I've had a few injuries and try not to run as much because it seems to be a little bit more impact. And if I'm both using myself there, but I've been doing some like hit workouts every 30 minutes a day when I leave here. Well, you do hit hit works every single day. We're in any much every day at the moment. We track it with a group of friends we have. There's 10 of us in a WhatsApp group. Whoever's lost, whoever does the least workouts every month is evicted. And there's a raffle.

1:07:17So there's a raffle yesterday on the first, the first yesterday. Yeah. For a new member. And we do that every month and we've done it for three and a half years. That's great. I've been in the first ever member. So I've been in there for three and a half years. Well, I think you know, I mean, the most, the best exercise the one you like doing. But is that one that's like better? You know, like the, you know, I think you got to mix it up. There is no one perfect exercise. Right. I mean, I think what you do sounds actually pretty good. Right. You got a mixture of, of, of, you know, low slow intensity, some, some high intensity.

1:07:48You want to have some strength training. You want to have some cardio. I mean, we never evolved to do one thing. And our bodies are too complex to benefit from just one thing. Mixing it up is, is the obvious way to go. Right. I think the bedrock for any kind of physical. I mean, you've asked anybody, right. Cardio is the bedrock of, of, of, of exercise. Right. It promotes the most health benefits. Right. It's good for your good, you know, your burning energy. It's good for your cardiovascular system. It's good for controlling inflammation. But, but, but there are different kinds of cardio in high intensity versus low intensity.

1:08:23And there's also strength training, right. Which is awesome, you know, important. So, you know, there's no, look, we've tried to medicalize exercise. Right. It's like a, like there's a proper dose, right. You know, take this pill. This many milligrams, this many times per week. Right. Exercise, it doesn't work that way. There is no, there is no optimal dose. Everybody is different. It depends on, are you more worried about heart disease or Alzheimer's or diabetes or depression or, you know, are you previously injured or you fit or you unfit? There is, it's impossible to prescribe exercise in this kind of medicalized way.

1:09:01It doesn't work. A lot of people exercise because they believe it will help them to lose fat. Uh, belly fat. The biggest debates on the planet. It has been a huge debate. Even on this podcast, I've had multiple people come and say a whole range of things about weight loss and cardio. And I'm kind of, I don't know what to believe anymore. Well, anybody wasn't confused. I don't understand what's going on. Right. You know, it's, um, it's sad that this is such a debate. But, um, but that's how science works. Right. So, um, as you know, I wrote about that in this book. Um, part of the explanation for the debate is that, again, what dose are you analyzing and what population in what kind of context, right?

1:09:50So, the pretty much every major health organization in the world recommends that you get 150 minutes per week of physical activity. That's kind of like the benchmark. That's what the, you know, the WHA, WHO, the World Health Organization considers the division between being sedentary versus active. So, and a lot of people are unfit and overweight and struggling to be physically active. I have struggled to get 150 minutes a week, right. So, a lot of studies prescribe 150 minutes a week of exercise walking, for example, or moderate intensity, physical activity, and then look at effects on weight loss.

1:10:26And guess what? When you, when you walk 150 minutes a week, which is what 20 minutes a day of walking, it's about a mile, a mile a day. You're not going to lose much weight. You're basically burning about 50 calories a day doing that. Right. That's a piddling amount of calories compared to drinking a glass of orange juice. Right. So, so surprise, surprise. Those kinds of studies show that those doses of physical activity are not very effective for weight loss. However, plenty of rigorous controlled studies that look at higher doses of physical activity, 300 minutes a week or more, find that they are effective for losing, for helping people lose weight, but not fast and not large quantities.

1:11:07So, you're never going to lose a lot of weight really fast by exercising. It's just not going to happen. Because, you know, a cheeseburger has what, you know, 800, 900 calories, you have to run, you know, 15 kilometers to lose that, to burn the same number of calories. So, you're going to be hungry afterwards too. So, you're going to make some of that back. You have compensation. So, so physical activity is a is actually there's just no way around it. You have to be a flat earth or not to argue this way, but they're, you know, their physical activity can help you lose weight, but it's not going to help you lose a lot of weight fast and not at the low doses that often are prescribed.

1:11:42But, the one thing that we do agree on and I think this would not be controversial is that physical activity is really important for helping people prevent themselves from gaining weight or after a diet from regaining weight. There are many, many studies would show this. One of my favorite was a study that was done in Boston on policemen. You know, policemen are kind of a reputation for, you know, having too many donuts and being overweight, right? And Boston is no exception. So, they did this great study at Boston University right across across the river where they got a bunch of policemen on a diet, really severe diet, the policemen all lost weight.

1:12:16Some of the policemen were, were had to diet and exercise, some just dieted alone. And as you might imagine, the ones who dieted plus exercise lost a little bit more weight, not a lot, just a little. But, and then they tracked them from months afterwards because most people after a diet, the weight comes just crashing back. The policemen who kept exercising even after the diet was over and they went back to eating whatever the hell they wanted, donuts, whatever, they're the ones who kept the weight off. But the ones who didn't exercise, the weight came crashing back. Another good example would be the, have you ever seen the TV show, The Biggest Loser?

1:12:51Yes, but people were going to lose weight. Yeah, so there's crazy show, right? These people, you know, this is like totally unhealthy. They were confined to a ranch in Malibu and these got these people lost ridiculous amounts of weight. Guy named Kevin Hall and the National Institute of Health studied them for years afterwards and looked at, and most of them regained a lot of the weight that they lost. And there was one person on the show who did not, and that was the person who kept exercising. And that's, you know, just yet more, when he said one data point, but there's a lot, some lots of evidence to show that physical activity, what it's other important benefit when it comes to weight is, is preventing weight gain or weight regain.

1:13:28When we talk about dieting, we talk about exercise or diet, exercise or diet, like why is it an orr? I mean, why isn't it exercise and diet? Diet is, of course, the bedrock for weight loss, but exercise also plays an important role and should be part of the mix. On the young police example and the biggest loser example, I can relate in the sense that when I exercise, when I go through the moments of my life where I'm most committed to exercise, I'm also most committed to my diet. Yeah. Because I, if I go to the gym, I will not then leave the gym and have a doughnut repeater. Absolutely not. It seems like wasting the effort.

1:14:09So if you look at the sort of correlation between the moments of my life where I eat healthiest, they're also the moments of my life where I'm most most focused on the gym. And I noticed there was a couple of months ago, had a bit of a motivation slump, managed to stay in a little WhatsApp group, but coasted down the bottom of the leaderboard for a couple of months on and just like surviving every month by one. And through those moments, my motivation in the gym had gone down and my diet had gone down. The minute I managed to get in the gym into a big workout, the same day my diet came back. Yeah, of course.

1:14:42Right. They co -vary, right. And that's one of the reasons why when people do big studies of, you know, what, you know, you can look at what, what, what people die of, right? What's on the death certificate? You know, cancer, heart disease, whatever, heart attack. And then you look at what caused the cancer, what caused the heart disease. When people try to do that, it's almost impossible to separate diet and exercise because people who tend to eat better also tend to exercise more. They're both in our modern upside down, tropsy -turvy world. They're both markers of privilege. People have money to go to the gym, also have money to buy healthy foods.

1:15:15And people who care about their physical activity also tend to care about their diet. So, so at that level, they're very hard to separate. However, if you're studying a particular component of a system in a randomized controls trial and a lab, you can separate them out. And so we know that they have independent and also interactive effects. What is the most important thing we haven't talked about, Daniel? I think the most important thing is that we need to be compassionate towards each other. I mean, there's so much shaming and blaming and prescriptions and, you know, you know, the reason I entitled the book, exercise, is that people, we make people feel exercised about exercise.

1:16:02We make them feel uncomfortable and, you know, you and I are having this conversation, but it can tell that you take, you know, you're, I mean, I know I've listened to enough of your podcast, you care about your health and you care about diet, you care about exercise. And people may look at you and think, gosh, I wish I was like him, but it's just not me, you know, I can't, I'm not, I'm not there, right? And they may feel put off by our conversation. And I think that so often these discussions make people feel bad about what they're doing. And I think that what we need to emphasize is that if you put a, you know, if you put a chocolate cake and an apple in front of me here, I would want to eat the chocolate cake.

1:16:46And I might eat the apple only because you're there. But if you weren't there, I would eat the chocolate cake, right? And when I'm in the, in my building in Harvard, my office is on the fifth floor of this old Victorian building. Every single day I want to take the elevator. And the only reason I take the stairs is that if anybody catches me in the elevator, I'll be a hypocrite. It's not that I don't want to take the elevator. I do want to take the elevator, right? I guess you guys say lift, right? And, and, and we make people feel bad for taking the elevator, right? They shouldn't feel bad. It's an instinct.

1:17:18And so I think we have to figure out ways to help people without shaming them and without blaming them and without bragging and whatever, you know, you know, talking about, you know, the marathon they ran or this that or the other. Make them feel less uncomfortable about the topic and realize that you don't have to swim the English channel or run a marathon or, you know, join your WhatsApp group and do crazy hit workouts every day. By the way, you don't need to do hit workouts every day to get the benefit. Instead, just, you know, taking the stairs in your building every day, anything is better than nothing.

1:17:53And, and you'll get benefits from that. And I hope that that's the message that needs to get out, right? Anything is better than nothing. And if you can get started on that, on that, on that pathway, then it'll eventually become self -rewarding. And that, and that leads me to the other topic that we didn't talk about, which is that the reward system physical activity. You and I, if we go for, like, I'm really looking forward to my run tomorrow morning in the park. I love running Central Park. It's one of the best places in the world around, right? A fantastic view from the top. And it's just gorgeous, right?

1:18:24But when I run Central Park tomorrow, I'm going to get a big dopamine hit. I'm going to, my body is going to produce all this dopamine, which is the molecule that says, do that again, right? It's a reward. Gambleers get dopamine hits, right? People eat chocolate cake get a dopamine hit, right? But if I were unfit and overweight, I wouldn't get that dopamine hit. And so when people start exercising, they don't get the reward that people who are fit and, and custom to doing it get. And then they're made to feel bad, like you didn't enjoy your run around Central Park. Well, it takes months, if not years, before you actually get that reward.

1:18:59And really? Yeah, because, because just like being overweight causes you to become insensitive to insulin, you become insensitive to all kinds of other hormones in your transmitters and dopamine is one of them. So, it's not an instant, like, benefit, right? It's hard. And so we need to be compassionate again towards people who are struggling to become fit and struggling to get the reward. And also, if you're overweight and you run around Central Park, it's like, if I were carrying weights and running around Central Park, it'd be much harder, right? It's, you know, it's challenging. And so we, once you get into that state, it's hard to get back to the state of activity.

1:19:34And so we, we need as a society to help those folks rather than judge them. Those folks that are struggling, and I was one of those folks that were struggling for many, many years. I would say to myself every year, pretty much all of my adult life that this was going to be the year that I get fit. I try all of these various different, you know, fad, exercise things by all this stuff. I announced in 2017 that I was going to work out every single day. And that lasted for six months, and I yo yo back out of that. It never stuck with me until 2020. And that's, I've been exercising six days a week since 2020, 82 % of days.

1:20:15And I reflect and try and diagnose how I went from someone who, what was it that changed? And if I can figure out what it was that changed at the most fundamental level in my mindset or my attitude or my life or whatever it was, then I can help other people figure out that to or at least give them more sound advice or at least be more empathetic, whatever's required to help them. You know, I have a platform here where I speak about exercise a lot in these things. So what's your suspicion? What's your suspicion on what it is that makes people go from being, you know, maybe having a negative opinion towards exercise or their ability to be disciplined.

1:20:51And then I'm going to be able to be a little bit more confident with it to becoming an exercise. Do you know? I've, this is a question that obsesses me. In fact, we have a big project right now, big grant to actually study this right now. Because I, the more I study it, the more I think it's social. The more I think that, again, I think people are physically active in our modern world exercise for two reasons. When it's necessary or rewarding. And what makes it rewarding for most people is the social aspect. And that social aspect can take many dimensions. It can be running with a group of friends.

1:21:29And, you know, you might want to go only a mile, but your friends convince you to run another mile right and you end up running two miles, right? Or you're feeling bad and crappy and your, you know, your friends help you do it. Or I am a running buddy, right? And I often, you know, meet friends for early morning runs. And I can tell you that the evening before it seems like a great idea to meet Aaron at 6 a .m. on the corner of Mass Ave and Lenean. The next morning at 6 a .m. I want to stay in bread with my wife, you know, I want to meet this nasty smelly guy, you know, at 6 a .m. in the cold and dark.

1:22:04But I agree to meet him and out I go, right? Now I'm usually glad I did it afterwards. Or, you know, we can go on. There are other social ways in which, which is, but we're dancing, right? I mean, nobody thinks of dancing as exercise, but it's exercise, right? So that's one important social dimension. And the other one, though, is accountability. I describe in the book, there's a friend of mine in San Francisco who's struggling to exercise. So she signed up for a program. It says company called stick .com. I don't know if you run across it. It's a commitment contract where you send like a thousand dollars to them and they keep it in a bank account.

1:22:42They probably invested and make a lot of money on it too. But you set up a referee and you agree that I'm going to not smoke or this or that or the other or in that case exercise. And if you don't do it, your referee is, you know, keeping track of what you do, you get to choose something negative. So in her case, her husband is her referee and if she doesn't walk, I can't remember what it by the day she has to walk a certain number of miles. Her husband will tell her and or tell the website and it'll send 50 dollars to the NRA that week. Oh my God. And she hates the NRA with a burning passion.

1:23:20What is the name right? The National Rifle Association. They're the people are trying to prevent gun control legislation in the United States. And they have effectively prevented gun control legislation in the United States, which is now kills more children than cars in the United States. So if she doesn't exercise, she, sorry, she doesn't do it then then money goes to this organization that she hates. So this is a stick if there ever was one is supposed to a carrot. And I don't think she's every time I see her ask her, you know, you kept up the walk, she says, oh no, NRA hasn't gotten the penny.

1:23:46Right. So for her, it's been very effective. So it's she's made a commitment contract that that sticks right that really hurts now. I think I might be a little on the extreme side and I wouldn't actually recommend that to everybody. But, but she's accountable, right. She's made herself accountable in some ways. And I think. People can find ways to make themselves accountable to a friend, a loved one, a parent, you know, priest who knows what, right. You might or or hire a trainer. That's mean that's kind of what a trainer does makes you accountable, right. And I think so, so those are again, social ways to help people be more physically active.

1:24:21So I think there are multiple ways of doing that. And I suspect that is going to be the most effective sort of set of tools that will help people. One thing I actually do is that on the screen saver of my phone, it has something that really inspires me. So I see it every day and it's that reminder for me, which reinforces my, my why across my life. It's actually my home screen on my iPhone is actually a bit of a mood board for me. We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're going to leave it for. And I don't get to see it to open the book.

1:24:52The question is, what is one aspect or feature of your life that causes you the most friction slash discomfort and how can you change or fix it. I would say it's my tendency to compare myself to others.

1:25:15I know life is short, life is precious. We're all experiments of one. And when I think about when I engage in that, oh, so and so has such and such, that's a really bad habit. It's a really bad trait. It never leads anywhere good. It only leads towards either either I think about how I have more of something than somebody else that leads to, I think unhealthy feelings of pride or feelings of jealousy, you know, so and so has this award or a such and such. And that's that's kind of proditious. So I think that's a bad habit that I work hard to overcome because it changes your expectations of yourself and that change takes stills happiness.

1:26:06It's still happiness. Yeah. It's still happiness. Thank you for the work you do, Daniel. Very important, very, very important and increasingly important. I think when we look at the health outcomes, especially here in the United States of people, I mean, you actually share a number of them in the book, which I didn't didn't we don't really go into, but they're just horrifying. Yeah, and scary out there, especially as it relates relates to exercise. There was one in particular that I wrote down because it horrified me. It was just all the stats around the current health care. Only 50 % of Americans ever exercise ever really ever.

1:26:43And only 20 % meet those very minimal World Health Organization standards. We're a nation of couch potatoes and the rest of the world is headed our way. But not if they get this book because it I think it is a real perspective changer. It's a real eye up tonight. It's a necessary one. So thank you so much for writing it. You're fantastic at what you do. And I'm now a huge fan of your work after delving in deeper and deeper and deeper. So I can't wait to see what you do next. Well, thank you. And I recommend everyone to go get this book exercised because yeah, I thought I knew a lot about exercise, but I but from reading that and having that window into a hunter gatherer ancestors and tribes and other cultures.

1:27:27It really that whole idea of a mismatched life, how mismatched my life is in so many fundamental ways from diet to exercise to socializing. And these kind of books helped realign. Well, thank you. Although it seems that you're doing a pretty job. I'm trying. You know, I think we're so far from being human though that there's still a long way to go for all of us. So thank you.

1:28:14Q1 is often when businesses start implementing new systems and processes in hopes of creating efficiencies for the year ahead. And over the course of my career, I've learnt just how crucial having the right systems in places. One which has helped me across many of my investments is net suite. They're also a sponsor of this podcast net suite is the number one cloud financial system through their streamlined platform. You'll find all of your accounting financial management inventory and HR in one place. Their technology has been a real game changer, especially for my team at flight studio. As over the last year, we've moved out of startup mode and into scale at mode.

1:28:49We no longer have to juggle multiple systems and having everything together has reduced the number of manual tasks and errors over 41 ,000 businesses have chosen to future proof their business with net suite. So if you'd like to learn how it can help your business head to net suite dot com slash Bartlett and free download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning that's net suite dot com slash Bartlett.