How To TRANSFORM Your Life At Any Moment: The Alcoholic Lawyer That Became "The Fittest Man On The Planet"!! Rich Roll

30:18They're suffering from something that's so powerful that they're unable to control it. Okay, so this was a quote I found about your opinion of balance. He finds balance extremely difficult and believes that if something is good, then the more the better. He believes balance is for ordinary people and he wants to be extraordinary. He says this can be a blessing and a curse. Yeah, definitely a blessing and a curse. I am hardwired for extremes. This has been both a superpower and in a killy's heel. It's the thing that has fueled me and allowed me to, you know, achieve some pretty cool things, but it's also been the thing that has almost killed me.

30:58So it's that love hate thing. But I think behind it, this notion of living a balanced life that we get served up. Like you need to be balanced and the best way to kind of pursue your life is in a balanced way, everything in balance. And the social conditioning around that idea is so powerful that for years, I just felt like a terrible person or like less than because I just could never figure out that equation to make everything feel like it was even adequately balanced because I feel most alive in those extremes. And that's part of what addiction is like you're just searching for those peak experiences in unhealthy ways and also in healthy ways through athletics and, you know, and through creativity and other avenues, but I always felt guilty about that.

31:51Other people seem to be telling me that I shouldn't be doing this. And yet this is where I feel like myself. And finally I got to the place where I was like, fuck this whole balance thing. Like this is who I am. And I decided to embrace it. Now that doesn't mean that you just blindly pursue these obsessions to the point of self -destruction, what it means is for me, again, not giving advice, in my experience, when I allow myself to immerse myself in something that fascinates me, whether it's an ultra -distance race or writing a book or whatever it is, giving myself permission to really focus on that and take it all the way to the wall is where I do my best work.

32:45But that is only acceptable as long as that pendulum that's swinging all the way up over here, swings back, goes this way and comes to the center. Because we all have buckets in our life of values that we need to nourish. So a creative project, for example, I'm going to go, I'm going to do that, And that's fine as long as I come back and my family is nourished, my relationship is nourished, my friendships are nourished. All these other areas that are important to me don't fall by the wayside for too long. So balance in the macro, but not balance in the micro. So on a day -to -day basis or a week -to -week basis, my life is wildly out of balance.

33:32But if you look at it over the course of a year, you telescope out. I think it's much more in balance than one might suspect. Super interesting. I've, I think, using that example of the swing, is it called Dependulum? In society, we started by glorifying hustle culture, I guess, and being out of balance, and then there was kind of a movement towards that toxic. Right. And now I feel like the new pride is like, I don't set my alarm clock. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like a little bit it's coming back the other way where people are going fuck work life balance. Like that's such balance is such a subjective thing and work is completely different for everybody.

34:16Like this is my work. This is not I'm not you know for someone else their relationship with that work might be tedium it might be depressing they might be doing something that really doesn't fill them up but I think there's needs to be nuance in the fact that all work is different every individual is clearly different and it is wide to find the fulfillment in different ways. So work -life balance in and of itself is a pretty ridiculous concept to think that there is a balance. There really must be, as you kind of describe, a subjective balance, where there's a balance for Steve. And as long as I don't fall in sacrifice social connection isolation and all the other things, then I'm balanced.

34:52My balance could you know, look much different from yours. For whom and when? Right? If you're 22 years old and you've got this idea for a startup and you're a coder and you want to code like a maniac, like knock yourself out. You have no other responsibilities. You have the time, you have the freedom to do that in that moment, but that 22 year old, 20 years later with kids and a mortgage and whatever, it's a different time. That person's in a different place. These things, you know, can't be, they have to be contextualized, right? And yes, if you want to achieve something great, you are going to have to work very hard and you're going to have to get out of your comfort zone.

35:31You may even need to be obsessed if you're living an entirely balanced life where you're home at five o 'clock and you're always at dinner and all it's like you're making it very difficult to achieve something extraordinary. That extraordinary thing is going to require an extraordinary commitment, which means in the social construct of balance, you are going to be out of balance. If you're going to feel uncomfortable with that, because you have other priorities in your life, then maybe that's not for you. And being out of balance to pursue something great, in my opinion, is perfectly fine, again, as long as you allow that pendulum to swing back and those other things in your life that are important are nourished and attended to.

36:12So it's a very specific thing. It depends on who you are, what stage of life you're in, what you're seeking, and having the self -awareness to understand that you can't be everywhere all the time. And you can't be 100 % for all of the things that are important to you in your life in every single day. So it's about conscious awareness and intentionality about where you're rowing that boat. You can only row your boat in one direction. Are you rowing the Stephen boat towards Stephen today? Are you gonna row it towards your girlfriend? Well, you gotta, you're gonna have to do a lot of rowing in a lot of different directions.

36:47It's just knowing that you're making a conscious choice and doing that with that understanding and appreciation, I think is really important. But all of this is to put the light of the idea that anybody is living a balanced life on a minute to minute, hour to hour day to day basis. It's like a, it's a construct that I think makes people feel guilty and bad about themselves because none of us are adhering to that idealized version of a balanced life that we have a mental picture of. You can't have it all. You left rehab in September 1998. And early on when you were talking about transformation, you described someone who goes from being a fairly ordinary person to running a marathon.

37:30That was one of this sort of examples you gave of something that intrigues you. How did they do that? That's pretty much in many respects what you went on to do upon leaving rehab as you, your life slowly moved towards ultra athletic sports. Yes and no. I mean, I think that the the shorthand kind of Google version of my story makes it look like all this stuff happened in a very compressed period of time. But actually when I left rehab, which is where I lived for a hundred days and resumed my life in Los Angeles, I spent the next 10 years trying to to solve the dilemma of my life that I had self -created.

38:15I had to repair my relationships. I had to become trustworthy to other people again. I had to be somebody who was reliable and would show up on time when they said they would, all those sort of like normal things that normal people do. I had to rebuild for myself. So for 10 years, I immersed myself in the recovery community and Los Angeles, and I tried to become that corporate lawyer that I thought that I wanted to be, to be kind of approved of by my parents and by society without really grappling with who I wanted to be, because I was so caught up and so ashamed of my past and embarrassed of how I'd screwed my life up, that I wanted to prove to myself and to everyone else that I could be that person that I was at 18 when I had all of these opportunities and choices.

39:14And I was blind to kind of the inner journey, despite sobriety, the blind to like really trying to figure out like what made me tick and what I might want to do for myself that felt like an indulgence. And so the ultra stuff came much later. That came like so I got out of rehab at 31. It wasn't until I was turning 40 that I had another bottom where I had to reckon with my lifestyle choices, with diet and movement, etc. because I'd put on 50 pounds and was just pursuing this corporate life to the point of illness, honestly. Although I'd been this athlete, I just could barely make it up as simple flight of stairs without being winded, tightness in my chest, heart disease runs in my family and just had a second situation in which I realized I needed to overhaul my life.

40:07So there was a whole 10 year period in between those kind of moments of awakening. That 10 year period is a 10 year period that a lot of people listening to this right now can relate to where you found yourself in a professional context or professional endeavor without asking yourself the question of like who am I and what am I actually interested in? you have a Indian parents and they came over here and they want you to be a lawyer, whatever it might be, I hear that story a lot. What is the question people in that situation should be asking themselves? And how do they take that first step in transformation from becoming the banker that's in the city with a suit and tie on right now listening to this?

40:46To the person that would make them whole and full and love themselves in their life. What is the first step? Is it a question? Is it a retreat they need to go on? Yeah, it's a great question. I think that question is probably different for everybody, but how about just asking yourself who are you? And I mean that in the broadest sense, perhaps the most unanswerable spiritual sense, but I also mean it in the very tangible sense of like, what are you doing? Are you really on the path that you want to be on? Did you choose this path? Are you here because of external pressures or expectations that you didn't ask for?

41:30And I think when you turn inward and start exploring your interior to try to grapple with what is making you tick, what is impulsing the decisions that you're making, the big decisions and the small decisions, and developing a lattice work or an understanding of what those mechanics are, sets you on a trajectory to making better decisions for yourself. So it's not like maybe that banker is supposed to be a banker, maybe super happy. That's fine. I'm not here to tell people they should quit their jobs. I'm just saying that an examined life, meaning that inward glance into understanding why you're making the decisions that you're making, historically, you know, the way in which you were raised that might have set you up to make decisions you think you're making for yourself, but are actually in reaction to unconscious triggers that are built into you.

42:30I think developing an awareness of that is really important in trying to understand that question. And it took me a very long time to untangle that knot. I don't think it's a simple process. I think it's different for everybody. It can come in the form of talking to a therapist or meditation. There is no one modality for that. But I think simply the commitment to try to understand that, I think, is the process of gaining that understanding to help you make more intentional decisions for yourself. And maybe it starts with an easy prompt like, what did you enjoy doing when you were eight years old that you don't do anymore?

43:09And why don't you do it anymore? re -engaging with the childlike nature that is perhaps lost as we grow older and kind of get into the flow of our professional lives. One of the most important questions I think I would add as well is how do you feel? We very rarely ask ourselves that and I think we all have this sort of internal compass which we've been given by life which is like how do you feel in this situation? How do you feel. Not like how do you feel in the context of is your mother happy or is your father happy or is society impressed by you. But like how do you actually feel? You know, and I think that sometimes for me has sat apart from the accomplishment.

43:50So I could be achieving something great and know that people are impressed and happy. But really, I'm going through a fucking shit time internally. And I'm tuning into that voice of like how do I feel and tuning out of the like how do people feel about me? Right. It has really helped me in those moments where I've got to make a big decision to quit. And I don't think people ask themselves that question enough. Well, they may ask themselves that question, but the answer is flippant, right? It's like, I'm good. I feel good. You know, I feel I slept good last night. No, like how do you really feel?

44:22And then continuing to peel back the layers until it gets really uncomfortable. And then you know, you're in the sweet spot, right? That's where the juice is. I've peeled them back. I've done, you know, I've raised my awareness. I realize I'm in the wrong place. But I'm 39 years old. And I've got kids, I've got a house. We live in this part of London, so I can get to work quickly. We've built our lives around this, you know, person I thought I wanted to be. And I'm held in place by the my friendship group and my mum is down. People have that fear. They think, how do I break out of that? How do I shed?

45:01Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, first I would say to that person, congratulations. Like you created a life for yourself. Like on some level, even if you want to leave that career path or you're unfulfilled in that, you still are somebody who is deserving of acknowledgement for building something. And you know, that's an amazing thing. So it's not about casting that aside or disrespecting it. For me, I would say to that person, what is it that gets you excited? Like what is it that you feel is unnourished in your life? Do you have a creative itch? Is there something calling you or something again that you used to do as a kid that you really enjoyed?

45:41And for some reason, I'm benosti you, you don't do it anymore. Maybe it's like, yeah, it could be music or stand up or you play football, right? Like being on a football team or doing something, you know, just having coffee with your friend or what have you, finding a way to build that back into your life in a way that isn't going to derail your current life, but I think just breathing on that, like giving space to the things that bring you joy in the most primal sense, like the simplest things that just you remember made you happy that you've forgotten and recapturing that and finding a way to respect that, protect it, nourish it and inject it into your life.

46:24And I think the more that you kind of tend to that garden, suddenly, oh, a little opportunity over here pops up. Or something is telling me I should move this way. These are very subtle energies that you have to be present for in order to notice them when they appear. But I think those are the subtle energies. That's the like those are the waves you want to be surfing. And you can do that while you're working at the bank. They don't have to be mutually exclusive. And over time, maybe you start moving a little over this way. Five years later, your life is unrecognizable. And I think this goes to the impatience that we all have.

47:05We all want to be this idealized version of ourself happier, fitter, thinner, richer, whatever it is overnight. and we overestimate what we can accomplish in a year or maybe in a couple years and completely underestimate what we could do in a decade. We're not wired to think in decades, it seems too intangible, but if all you do is make tiny little changes to build in habits into your life that bring you joy or fulfillment or happiness or purpose in incremental micro -elotments that don't Disrupt the rest of your life You do that for 10 years straight your life is gonna be different and I can promise you that Ten years after rehab you have what you described as your second rock bottom Your workaholic you're trying to sort of appease the perception of people in your life to make them proud I guess Just before your 40th birthday this is when that's sort of reckoning in your life takes place.

48:11What is that reckoning in your life? What did you realize and what did you see as the solution to that confrontation? Yeah, so I had spent the better part of 10 years people pleasing and doing my best to be successful Living somebody else's life unbeknownst to me doing all the right things checking all the boxes becoming successful So if you were on the outside looking in it looked like I was doing pretty well inside I was dying because my soul, my spirit, was unheard and undernourished. Like I didn't know how to pay attention to myself or the signals of my soul who were telling me, I don't think you're that happy doing this.

48:54And repressing that year after year after year to the point where I couldn't do it anymore. So I was harboring a bit of an existential crisis about how I was living my life being this lawyer and kind of showing up in the world in a certain way that always felt like a costume that didn't fit me. Meanwhile, although sober from drugs and alcohol, I sort of transferred a lot of that addiction energy into food and was eating, you know, a terrible fast food diet, gained a lot of weight, was inactive, even though I'd been a swimmer in college, wasn't really moving my body in any meaningful way for a number of years.

49:33There's this existential crisis that I was having collided with this health scare shortly before I turned 40 where I was going up a flight of stairs after a long day at work and couldn't even make it all the way up. I had to stop halfway up the flight, winded out of breath, tightness in my chest, like weezing, you know, thinking, I swam at Stanford. Like, I was a world -ranked swimmer. I'm like 39 about to turn 40. I feel like shit. I'm fat and it just broke that spell of denial about how I was living where it became intolerable to continue along that path. And it was very much like the day that I decided to go to rehab like this moment back to willingness like suddenly out of the blue.

50:21I was blessed with this realization not only that I needed to change my lifestyle habits, but that I had the willingness to actually take action on that. And because the decision that I had made 10 years prior when I went to rehab had been so transformational, like I could have woken up that day and made a different decision, what would my life look like? And I had this palpable sense that once again, this was just such a moment where if I could make a decision like I had 10 years ago, maybe I could change the trajectory of my life. And I know that these moments are fleeting and they require kind of immediate action or they pass, right?

51:05You could say, maybe I should eat better or go to the gym once in a while, like I'm tired of feeling like shit, that's so vague. I knew that that wasn't going to work for me and I needed to do something immediate that was also difficult that would mimic the experience of going into a treatment center for drugs and alcohol. like I needed to have a structured situation that would snap me out of my comfort zone and kind of create a new trajectory upon which I could build something different. I think about this a lot in like businesses and organizations. They almost need to stage a crisis, I call it, to make change happen because when you're in an organization and there's maybe thousands of people and let's say it's AI or an innovation comes along.

51:51People will go, yeah, that's a problem, but you know, it's fine. And then they'll kind of carry on, keep on keeping on. The organization almost needs to stage a crisis, like everyone in a room and say, we're changing today and really sort of terrify, terrify their team about the prospect of not changing. It's almost like staging a rock bottom because it will be the frog in the frying pan. It will slowly creep upon you. If you don't, right, at some point, as I call it, like stage a crisis, which is to really get clear on where this is heading and where we're sleepwalking ourselves into, whether it's with our health, our relationships.

52:27I actually had this conversation with a friend of mine in his relationship because he's now in a sexless relationship and he's really unhappy, but he's not saying anything about it. He's kind of bringing it up sort of quietly once in a while and his unhappiness in the relationship and resentment is coming out in other ways in the relationship like arguments and fighting, but he needs to stop and like stage a crisis, not allow it to be brushed under the carpet anymore and sit down and say, listen, if we can't solve this, I have to leave this relationship and like, I want to solve it with you, but it's a deal breaker for me.

53:02So you know what I mean? Yeah, I get what you're saying. Basically, short of like sleepwalking yourself towards the cliff's edge, staging an intervention on your life by, you know, like concocting a crisis. That's going to compel you to confront the elephant in the room. That is the thing that is holding you back. That's obvious to everyone else. And yet, you're refusing to look at it. Yeah, because as you said earlier, we want to avoid discomfort. So if we can just sweep discomfort under the carpet and procrastinate it into tomorrow, we do. We do that in businesses. We do it in our own lives.

53:37So how do we maximize the discomfort today by presenting what the future will look like like if we don't take action right now. And there is often a point of no return in relationships and in business for sure for sure. So yeah, I think that's a very kind of pragmatic, three -dimensional actionable way to look at it. Perhaps a more mystical way to approach this is to say that when you are living your life out of alignment with your best self, the universe comes knocking. and it knocks gently. Like maybe you're out telling lies or whatever it is. Like you're not living your life in integrity, like in alignment with your own values.

54:25And we all do this, right? We're not all living perfect lives. And so when you do that, like, there'll be nudges and those nudges will be very graceful at first. And if you ignore them, a little bit louder, yeah. Yeah, that's fine. I can deal with that. The knocks start to get more intense, more intense, more intense, more intense. And then you get two DUIs in six months and you're in jail or your partner leaves you or whatever it is, right? How much pain are you willing to tolerate? How loud does the knock have to be before you're willing to course correct? Change is very difficult. We don't want to make change.

55:05Or if change were easy or it was a logical thing, like, here's the answer, do this. And if everybody just did it, there would be no self -help industry. There wouldn't need to be any books. You just tell somebody what to do and they do it. So why don't they do it, right? We don't like to be out of our comfort zone. We have a certain way that we live our life. And until that is so disruptive, disrupted, we're going to continue on that path, right? So the question becomes how much pain do you have to be in before you're willing to walk through the fear of the unknown that the change presents? How loud is the knock -off to be?

55:51How low does the elevator have to drop? And I think that that answer is different for everybody. But the amazing and confusing thing about it is that the possibility of change exists in all moments. We can make that choice at any time. We don't have to suffer. We don't have to be in pain. And yet we still don't do it. So unlocking that mystery, yeah. I mean, well, there's your book. You can answer that question. Well, I've been playing around with this idea in my book. There was a chapter I was going to write about time. Right, so I wanted to write something about time and time management. So I thought the best place to start is talking about death because that kind of puts time in context.

56:33It's fine. And so I started writing about that. You know, if you're 35 years old, you've got 17 ,000 days left. I'm trying to find all these ways where people can visualize the con because of what you said, people can't think of decades. We can't think of finality. We can't think of infinity. We can't think of long periods of time. I also at some level don't believe we know we're going to die. We don't live our lives accordingly. We think it happens to other people. Yeah, exactly. Deep down, we're like, somehow I'm going to sidestand. Yes, exactly. You're actually going to happen. Yeah. And you see that in our decisions, like the things we pour our attention into.

57:05Clearly, we don't think we're at we're on a clock here. Right. A clock we can't see. So that's how I started the chapter. Then I went into time and I was like, hey, time management techniques. I looked, I was thinking about my own time management techniques. I then was like, I'll Google it. ChatGTP. Went on chatGTP, talked to me about time management techniques. There's so many of them. And I thought to myself, the reason why there's so many is the same reason there are so many fat diets, because none of them work unless you have discipline. So that people just keep making new ones, and they keep selling, because none of them work without this thing called discipline.

57:34So what causes discipline? And then I arrived at this sort of discipline equation in my head where I kind of believe when you want, I'm going to say this is in a super vague way, broad way, when your perception of how meaningful the goal is, plus the enjoyment and psychological engagement you get from the pursuit towards the goal. So for me, I really want to be a DJ. I've played around with the idea for a long time. I finally made the decision I wanted to do it. Why do I want to do it? Absolutely love music. Love the thrill and how energized I am from performance. Plus, the psychological engagement and joy when I get from the pursuit.

58:07It's like a meditation DJing and the practice of it, right? So you got up to desert into my kitchen. I spend hours listening to my favorite music and merging it with other songs I love. For hours, forgetting about the whole world minus the perceived psychological cost of the pursuit. So what does it cost me to pursue DJing? And I think that is roughly my discipline equation. So if you think about these three elements, how bad do you want it? How enjoyable it is? What does it cost? You can kind of think of why people might or might not change. And if it's somewhat fits into what you said about when the pain of staying the same becomes greater than the pain of making a change than people make the change.

58:48when they really, really want it, and it's more enjoyable than it is painful to go in that direction, behavior changes. Right. Well, I would take it one step further, but first, let me, let me say this. I would say that you're already a DJ. You're making an assumption around what it means to be a DJ or to pursue DJing. That comes with a lot of baggage. It means success, maybe you're envisioning a big crowd of people who are listening to your music, but the fact that it brings you joy and you've found a way to carve time out to nourish that, it doesn't matter how far it goes or doesn't go as long as you are kind of cultivating that out of that purity of spirit because it nourishes your life.

59:36So that's what I mean when I was talking about the banker, right? Like just DJ or kitchen table, like it doesn't have to be any more than that. If you're finding so much joy in it, then you can recalibrate that equation about how much energy resources and time you're going to invest in it. But right now, if it fits into your life, and it's making your life better, then the question would be, does it need to be more than that? Do you need it to be attached to some external validation or monetary reward or recognition in order for you to believe that you actually are a DJ. And so I'm saying there's an answer to that question, but it's something to think about.

1:00:16The reason I gave the DJing example is because it was something I was able to stick out. I was able to quote unquote essentially change. And my health was the same thing. It fits into that discipline equation of at some point in my life, I saw this pandemic happen. I saw the fragility of this thing called health in my young 25 years. I'd never even knew was there. I never even knew I had health because mine had fortunately always been well. And then upon seeing the pandemic play out and hearing the doctors and scientists say that your current health How you know obesity is linked to your chances of Suffering having sort of worse effects of this disease.

1:00:49That was enough for me to put me in the gym for the next three years And I haven't missed more than two days since pretty much in a week for the last three years That was my behavior change before then I was the guy with the fast food Right, so that was the moment that was the line in the sand moment that piece of information created willingness in you. Which is the first part of that equation, which is the why. Like, why do I care about my health? Right. It added so much weight to me carrying about my health. But discipline is easy when you have that why answered. Right? So if it was just that easy, I think that more people would be able to make positive changes in their life.

1:01:31But I think where it gets more complicated is when we understand Beneath the surface that it's our emotional lives that are truly the things that hold us back from accessing that potential You can be incredibly disciplined But if you think you're a piece of shit or you don't deserve good things in your life or you're being Impulsed by some trauma that happened to you. You were abused as a young person that's going to show up in your life as a barrier or an impediment from you doing the thing that you know you need to do to become the person that you could potentially become. So the head discipline can drive us so far, but if we don't sort out the heart and what is making the heart beat, what is making us move in one direction versus another and untangling or detaching or transcending the emotional baggage that is the true impediment to our growth, discipline is only going to take you so far.

1:02:36So you became an ultra endurance sports athlete from that point of way you can walk up the stairs without losing your breath. What was that transformation? So after that moment, I decided to take responsibility for my well -being. And thus began a pretty long and ineligant and nonlinear process of first trying to figure out how to eat in a way that would allow me to feel good in my body. That began with a seven -day juice detox cleanse that I did, not because I felt like I needed to detox anything, but I needed to recreate the experience of detoxing off alcohol that I had in rehab. Like I needed to do something that was going to be hard and uncomfortable and not eating and just drinking juice seemed like a good way to accomplish that.

1:03:28I'd never gone a day without eating food before. And that was an experience where I was incredibly uncomfortable and I felt horrible for a couple days. but on the seventh day I felt amazing and I couldn't believe that only drinking juices for seven days could result on day seven in this boost of vitality and mental acuity that I hadn't experienced in a long time as somebody who was eating cheeseburgers every day. And that made me want to figure out a way to feel like that all the time. And so I ended up trying a bunch of different diets and what worked for me ultimately after trying many different things was going entirely plant -based.

1:04:12I'm not here to tell everyone that that's what they should do, but that's what agreed with me. And that's the way I've eaten for the last 16 years. And this approached the nutrition, restored my vitality, and gave me a renewed sense of energy so much so that I had difficulty sitting still and finally wanted to like move again and pulled out an old pair of running shoes from the closet and just started moving my feet again and I went back to the pool for the first time in a very long time and was just connecting frankly with these things that brought me joy as a young person like I was a swimmer and I hadn't done it in a long time and I'd forgotten what it feels like to jump into a swimming pool on a sunny day and feel the water and and connect with my breath and move my legs on a trail at dawn.

1:05:06And I really loved it. And I felt like that was a journey towards answering these questions that I was having on the existential front about what I was going to do with my life because I had a lot of confusion at that time. And just the mental space of like being alone with my breath in the pool or on a trail running was very healing for me. And I had no aspirations of becoming a competitive athlete with it. I just wanted to feel good. I wanted to like lose this gut, you know, frankly, for vanity reasons. I didn't like how I looked in the mirror. And the weight came off really quickly. And I felt like I was making incredible progress, athletically, week after week after week.

1:05:46And then one day I went out, like maybe six months into this experience. And I was just going to run for like an hour. And I had one of those days, you're an athlete, you know, those days where you just feel like you just are bulletproof and you can go, go, go. And I just kept running and ended up running the better part of the marathon that day, like 24 miles. And I'd never done anything like that before. Despite having been a swimmer, I'd never been a runner. And that was a real watershed moment where I thought, wow, like, I feel really good. I didn't know that you could feel this good, certainly not at age 40.

1:06:20And that got me thinking about potential. and I had never really realized my potential as an athlete in college because alcohol really destroyed my swimming career. And so there was a sense of unfinished business there, but I just wanted to see what I was capable of. And so that set me on this journey to find experiences where I could tap into that. And that's where I discovered this whole world of ultra endurance and these crazy races and I became fascinated with that and ended up competing in this race called Ultra Man, which is a three -day double -ired man race. And that's the race that I ended up distinguishing myself in.

1:07:04And really the instigating point in that was reading an article where David Goggins had done that race back in 2006, I think. And it was the story of how he got through that race that really inspired me and because he wasn't the traditional endurance athlete triathlete, I was able to convince myself that if he could do it, that maybe I could. And that set in motion me training for this race and competing in it a couple of times. I've had two guests come here and tell me that we're in a comfort crisis. And what they mean by that is they say that we're kind of optimizing our way away from comfort in every sense of the word.

1:07:43we're like, you know, we live in these sort of room temperature rooms where we can go on a piece of glass and get someone to bring us our food in a metal car, right to our door step and what we're, and in fact, discomfort and pressure is where our growth, our health and all of these things are fulfillment in many cases comes from. Doing an ultra endurance race is for me, you know, the one of the epitome of of pressure and discomfort and sitting with that and accepting it. Do you believe that more of us should be making ourselves uncomfortable in that context more often and that there's tremendous value in that?

1:08:27I think about it when I hear like a fucking Steve, when I get on my bike and just ride and just see and push myself, see what I see where I can take it. 100%. You don't grow unless you go out of your comfort zone. And that's in every facet of your life. If you want to become smarter, you have to read books or go to school like that's not always comfortable. There's a million different varieties of this. But yes, we are in a culture that prioritizes comfort and luxury. And it's all about making our lives easier. Ironically, what makes us happy is putting ourselves in difficult situations, not so difficult that they capsize our lives, but difficult enough that we're testing ourselves.

1:09:10And we're grappling with obstacles and we're overcoming them. And on the other side, we feel a boost in self -esteem. We feel more ourselves. We feel more alive. And we experience growth and connection with self and connection with other people. This is the stuff of life. And yet it is not the way that society is constructed. We have to go out of our way now. We have to seek the, it used to be, this was everyday life, to survive, right? And now we actually have to pay money and travel to places to have these experiences. What's so amazing is that, you know, when I started doing these ultra races, they're all very kind of like low key under the radar.

1:09:55There's not a lot of media attention on them. It's a subculture that has been around for a while, but in the last decade, we've seen an explosion in interests in doing 100 mile races. Like there's a lot of rees now to get into a race where you have to run 100 miles. Like if you told somebody in 1800 that this was gonna be the case, they would think you were insane, right? So what does that say? It tells us that we feel nourished by doing hard things. that we are extracting value from those experiences that we don't get in the mundanity of our everyday lives. And yes, we have to consciously extract ourselves from the comforts of our environments and put ourselves in those positions.

1:10:45But the good news is there's lots of those things right now. It's insane how many marathons, the London marathon was the other way. Like how many thousands of people ran it? And then there's a Spartan race. And there's just a million of these things now that didn't use to exist because the human spirit needs it, it demands it, and we have too long deprived ourself of these types of scenarios. That doesn't mean that you want to be unsafe or put yourself in peril, but I just don't see any other way or any other path towards becoming the better version of yourself without placing yourself in scenarios in which you're tested, because succeed or fail, you have an experience that's going to teach you more about who you are, what your limitations are, and what your capabilities are.

1:11:35The popularity of these endurance races and even things like ice plunge pools and stuff. Sure. All of these exact makers feel really uncomfortable. Again, it reminds me of what I said earlier about there, because there's been a real rise in sort of social media and the digital screens and all of these things. Now people are looking for places for community. So bowling alleys and in real life events have increased. And in the same way, because we've optimized our lives to be more comfortable and easy. Now there's a booming industry around things that make us feel uncomfortable. You said I didn't get into ultra -indulgent sports to win races, beat others or stand atop a podium.

1:12:10I got into it because it's the perfect template for self discovery. What did you discover about yourself? And also, I think it's probably important to say of people, you'll really, really get it at this ultra endurance stuff. Like we haven't quite gone through your CV yet, but I mean, I've got a list of accolades that you've achieved and you're one of the best at this. So I think that's worth saying before we proceed. Yeah, thank you for that. I mean, I've learned so much. The amazing thing about endurance athletics is you have to spend a lot of time. with an elevated heart rate that's not so uncomfortable that you can't perpetuate it for hours and hours and hours.

1:12:56But it's just uncomfortable enough where you're sitting in that discomfort and you have to develop a tolerance for that. So what it does is it teaches you how to suffer, how to manage pain, but also how to be with yourself. Like when I was training for these races, I would go out all day alone. And it's just you, your breath, and your mind. And at that time, I really was trying to figure out like, I can't be this lawyer anymore. Like, what am I going to do? Like, all I know is I really like doing this. This is not a career path. And this is not, I'm not going to support four kids doing this thing that I love.

1:13:39But it is bringing so much value to me that I just know I want to keep doing it. and I'm going to pay attention and pull whatever threads show up. And what I learned through this journey of training, most importantly the training, the races are just you know a demonstration of what you put into getting to that point, was on a surface level, as an athlete, I had a lot more to say than I then I ever believed that I could. I was able to do things I never would have thought possible and do it in my 40s, which is an age where people think your way past your prime. So that was huge. And like I said earlier, that opened up the possibility of tapping into potential on other areas of my life.

1:14:31But I also learned that when you cultivate and nourish that thing that is bringing you joy and you pay attention to the subtle voices that are telling you, this feels right. When you commit to that completely, that will set you on a journey that will lead you to a place you can't possibly imagine. When I put on the running shoes for the first time and just thought, I love doing this, could I have imagined that I'd be sitting across from you right now having a conversation? It's ridiculous. It's preposterous. So what I learned was the power of connecting with the heart as somebody like yourself who lives in their mind and prides themselves on their intellect and their analytic abilities, understanding the limitations of that.

1:15:26and finding a way to really pay attention to those kind of more ephemeral, ethereal messages that one will receive when you're really quiet, you're really honest with yourself, and you're committed to taking actions that are in alignment with that in a way that maybe you never prioritize before. And that has been a path that I've blazed for many years at this point that has caused suffering and hardship, but also beautiful creative offerings and a life that I could have never imagined for myself. But if I'm playing sounds like you almost ran away from your little career in law. Yeah, I guess so.

1:16:15Yeah, I guess so. I guess so. You know, the law and me, like, I don't like conflict. I don't know how I became a lawyer in the first place. It's like, I just, you know, I could will myself to be the lawyer that I was, but it never felt right to me. And I knew that I wasn't in the right situation for myself. And it took me a really long time to walk away. Like, I probably walked away from it over a very extended period of time. It wasn't a very dramatic split. I was trying to figure out from the point of when you start doing the ultra endurance racing to the point where you get into sort of financial hardship, 45 years old, you launch your rich role podcast.

1:16:58You've got this little job, you start ultra racing, this financial hardship. Is that because you quit the little job or is that because I was a bad lawyer? What happened was, so I did exit like the big law firm thing, but I continued to practice just law as a solo practitioner and then in a couple different incarnations of partnerships with a couple people. But as I got more and more immersed in the ultra world, my enthusiasm and interest in my law practice continued to dwindle. And I was my own boss at that point practicing law. So not a lot of new clients coming in. I was still doing it, making just enough money to get by, but wasn't doing great because I just wasn't into it.

1:17:45But I held on to it for a very long time and when you're holding on to it It's hard to get into the new thing until you're really willing to let go of the other thing But making that transition was very challenging even you know after finding ultra came out I I completely severed my ties with the law at that point But the phone wasn't really ringing that much and there wasn't a lot of opportunities coming my way And it took a lot of patience and faith and I did the podcast for years before or we were able to monetize it or do any kind of ads or anything like that. I just did it as like a fun hobby or a project.

1:18:23What was it like for Julie during that period between sort of 2008 and 2015? Things are really tough financially. You've almost lost your house, couldn't pay a lot of your bills, had your cars repossessed. Yeah, it was very difficult. She was really the strength in that equation because there were multiple occasions where I couldn't take it anymore. And I thought, this is ridiculous. I need to go back and get a law job. What kind of head of household or man of the house in my, if I can't even pay the bills and I'm chasing this fool's errand in this direction of trying to do these creative projects or be this athlete, like who the hell do you think you are?

1:19:08And Julie was the one who was like, no, So we've come too far for you to move backwards. And the answers that you are seeking and the solutions to the problems we face are only going to be found by continuing to blaze the path that you've established for yourself. And she had a conviction and a belief and an ability to see the more developed actualized version of myself that I couldn't at that time. And without her strength, her faith, her conviction, I definitely would have abandoned the path. But she was in all the way. And she would say, these things are just things. You're definitely on a path that you should be on.

1:19:58I can see that. And I want that for you. And if we lose the house, we lose the house, cars, or cars, the stuff comes and goes, but we're together and we're gonna, we're gonna walk this path. This is what we're here to do, which is a fucking amazing thing for a partner to say to you, to have that kind of belief in you. is such a gift. So I just can't emphasize enough how powerful she has been like in this whole thing. Of all the things you've accomplished in your life, of all the things you've done, what does she mean to you?

1:20:46I mean, she's, she is my partner in all things. She's my North Star. She's my spiritual council. She's my mirror. Yeah.

1:21:03And you know, we're normal people with kids who you know, Bicker and Argu and have the same kind of issues everyone else does. But she's a really special person, really special. It's really something when someone can see the potential in you in a way that maybe you can't see it at that moment in time or maybe you don't quite believe it. It is such a gift. You know, they say the greatest gift you can give somebody is your attention. But if you have somebody in your life who believes in you so thoroughly that they can see past whatever situation you're in or whatever faults you have or things that trip you up and holds a vision for that better version of you and not only holds it for you says, I believe in you.

1:21:57They're not telling you what to do or how to do it. They're saying, I believe in you and I trust you to find your way towards that person. And I am holding that for you in my daily consciousness, in my sleep and my thoughts and my prayers. Then manifest a very powerful energy. Yeah. So it's a curious idea that someone else can manifest Your life for you in it in a kind of in an in an inadvertent way I've experienced that as well There's been moments in my life where my partner has Said something to me. I've heard what she said. I didn't believe it necessarily myself But because she believed it that I could do that

1:22:42Maybe it did change something in me. Maybe it did make me go, I trust her and she's smart and she's usually right. And she's telling me that I can do this thing. So maybe it is possible. I can remember so many conversations over 15 years where someone said something to me about what my future will look like. And because I trusted them, I think it helped that future become a reality. Sure. I mean, just imagine the young person who, you know, has the opportunity to be with a certain teacher and that teacher says, you know, you can do this. Like you're good at it. Like there's countless stories of people who win Oscars and get up and thank their whoever who said, you know, you should keep doing that thing.

1:23:26And you know, those are, those are really powerful, you know, gifts that we can give to other people. He believes that if you follow your true path, the universe will support you. Quite I read about you as well. Yeah, I do believe that. That's been my life experience. I've seen that manifest in many people that I know over the years, a lot of people in recovery. And that doesn't mean that it's easier convenient or on your timetable. I would say that the path that I've pursued has been the hardest path I could have imagined. It's the most meaningful and fulfilling, but it didn't happen overnight.

1:24:08It happened over the course of more than a decade, and it required a lot of conviction and faith and patience and pain. We had to lose a lot, but there's that adage like you can't be a phoenix if you don't burn in the flames first, right? And I feel like we had to burn in the flames or burn off the residue of whatever in order to be reborn to do something different. And I think when you have run that type of gauntlet and you emerge on the other side of it, what you have to share with other people is all the more kind of poignant because it's your own lived experience and it's authentic and real.

1:24:53Q1 is often when businesses start implementing new systems and processes in hopes of creating efficiencies for the year ahead. And over the course of my career, I've learnt just how crucial having the right systems in places One which has helped me across many of my investments is NetSuite. They're also a sponsor of this podcast. NetSuite is the number one cloud financial system through their streamlined platform. You'll find all of your accounting financial management, inventory and HR in one place. Their technology has been a real game changer, especially for my team at Flight Studio. As over the last year, we've moved out of startup mode and into scale at mode.

1:25:28We no longer have to juggle multiple systems and having everything together has reduced the number of manual tasks and errors. Over 41 ,000 businesses have chosen to future proof their business with NetSuite. So if you'd like to learn how it can help your business, head to NetSuite .com slash Bartlett and free download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning. That's NetSuite .com slash Bartlett. So many chapters in your life, Rich. So many of them we've been through. Pretty much all of them so far. And we arrive now at today. Now, if I was to ask Julie what the next chapter looks like, or you, I know, you know, it's funny because when people ask me this, my instinctive answer is I don't know, but I'm going to do my best to what I'm doing now.

1:26:12But if you were to try and if you think back to your mission, the mission you described at the start of this conversation, what do you think the next chapter is for you? That's a great question. I think for me, the challenge and the opportunity comes from

1:26:30learning how to let go of striving and step into a place of allowing rather than being this animal of self -will who's pursuing and achieving and pushing and and and and really kind of in their ambition to manifest something for financial security for legacy, whatever it is, to ease off that gas pedal and just be in a place of ease with everything where it doesn't have to be hard. And what would it feel like if you didn't push, but you still did the thing, would you still be you? Would you feel like you left something on the table because you didn't suffer to create the thing that you share with the world?

1:27:24And I think that is so hard for me. And I imagine might be a difficult thing for you to digest for yourself, right? Because we both know if I go out and I push really hard, I can do something and I can make it great. And I'm pretty sure what the result of that is going to be. But what if you created out of a sense of joy? and you didn't have to exhaust yourself in doing it. And you could enjoy your friends and your family and live a rich life without the stress that you place upon yourself or the pressure or the people pleasing or the need for any kind of external validation. So that's the mountain that I'm trying to climb right now.

1:28:18And I would say that I'm not doing it very well. Why do you want to climb that mountain there? Because I think that there's a lot of wisdom in being more in flow as opposed to willfulness and I think that there's a peace and a happiness to be found there that I'm probably missing in my life right now. And because it's new territory to be explored, I know what it's like to do this other thing, and it's exhausting, and it's not sustainable. And I believe that there is a better way over here. So am I in enough pain with this where I'm willing to entertain the possibility of trying something different, or am I holding on too hard to this old modality and unwilling to embrace the possibility that the result and the fullness of life could be better by this different way of approaching things.

1:29:45Has there been personal symptoms that have encouraged you to seek out another way of being? Sure, yeah.

1:29:58I have tipped out up to burn out a couple times with the podcast and that's been to help me because I was a control -free perfectionist who tried to do everything myself for too long to the point of it just being completely unsustainable to now having people that I empower to do a lot of the work that I used to do and who now do it very well, which has freed up my time. and I still find myself with this sense that success has to be earned and the only way to earn it is to inflict pain on yourself. And if you're not in pain, you didn't try hard enough and it would have been better if you suffered more.

1:30:51And I think that's a lie. And I want to find out if it's a lie or if it's true. thinking back to your endurance racing, it seems to be that it might be true. You know, you achieve that through pain. Sure. This comfort seems to be the the first hurdle to all the good places we would actually that's very comfortable for me. The real discomfort is to see what it would be like without the suffering. That's harder to do. Yeah, it's harder to do for me, aren't you?

1:31:28I often ask my guests, are you driven or you being dragged? Because saying you're driven is a nice way to frame yourself. That's like an intentional person. But so often we're actually being dragged by the insecurity, the shame that desire to be enough. We're like, we're strapped to the end of the law and it's flying down the highway. We think we're in the driving seat, you know? And I think in so many facets of my life right now, I know I'm, well, I suspect I'm being dragged, but I think I'm being driven. And I'm portraying it as... So what would an example of that be? Even the podcast. You know, do I have to be so like neurotic and obsessed with everything and every detail?

1:32:03You said it before we started. You're very obsessed about the detail. The fact that when we do the podcast in LA, we have every book is the same in the same world. You know that's insane. I mean, it's a great story. It's very entertaining. But it's fucking bananas, dude. But for me, I'm probably going to try and justify it here. But for me, it's about, I know that the small stuff is the stuff that most people don't think about. So it's my place. It's where we find the opportunity. But generally, of course, I think about all the things I do, all the businesses, all the details, to the point of some level of suffering.

1:32:33There's definitely a cost to my personal relationships when, at Sunday, when I'm on a date with my partner, and I get a message, and something's not quite right. And then I lose 30 minutes in despair, like silent despair to myself on my head, I just kind of, I leave the dinner table. That's not a great way to live. Right. I relate to that deeply. So I'm right with you and lockstep with that. But what if you were to say, okay. But then, okay, so let me try and justify this. Then everything, the whole house of cards, caves on top of itself and all the good things in your life disappear. Yeah, that's what I think.

1:33:09Right, yeah. Yeah. I know. And I'll say, well, all our ancestors, as they built these skyscrapers and this AI stuff and these cameras that we're using. So we're innately meant to struggle forward. That's hardwired into us. It's why I'm here. My ancestors struggled forward. They built buildings and civilizations and they left that in my genetic code. It's a little messaging. You too shall struggle forwards, David. You too shall be wired to climb upwards. Do you feel that But to enjoy your life is an indulgence that's fine for other people, but you're on a mission. So you can have a different relationship with those aspects of life that other people find important.

1:33:59I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is that book? Do you think I'm pushing this? No, I'm like, I'm just seeing if you see the world the way that I do. You know what I mean? But what are you 30? How old are you? I just turned 30. Yeah. So I'm 56, dude. Yeah. You know, so check in with me and in. What advice did you give me? We've got the same mindset. Look, I think it's great that I'm all about the details. And I just want to say for the record, I shared it with your team earlier, I think that what you have built here is extraordinary. I have so much respect for not only the show, the way you comport yourself, the way that you are curious about the people that you talk to, and the fact that you've built this incredible audience in such a short period of time and the integrity and the quality is fantastic.

1:34:54So I've been a fan. And a lot of that is because you are attuned to the details. And I see that in you. And I think there's something beautiful and wonderful about that. The trick is to not allow it to become toxic to the point where it starts to denigrate the quality of your life. So can you, you know, toggle it such that you're still pursuing what's important to you in a way that's sustainable because because you want to be doing this for a long period of time, right? So after five or six years or 10 years, like, what is your relationship to this thing going to be? And if it's not sustainable now where you feel drained at the end of the week, rather than energized, then maybe you look at your brilliant business person, look at the model and figure out how you can tweak it so that you can stay in love with the process.

1:35:48us. And I think for me, it's all about enjoying it for what it is and detaching from all the externalities. Like if I start looking on Spotify or Apple, where the ranking, all that kind of stuff, like I know that I'm in a dark place, right? I shouldn't be comparing myself to other people. I should just be present for the experience of having these conversations and trying to deliver value to the people who are taking time out of their day to listen. And that's it. Doesn't have to be any more than that. When I get caught up in that other stuff is when I start to make decisions that begin to become out of alignment with the mission.

1:36:39Thank you. Thank you for that advice. And thank you for such a rich, wonderful conversation. I think especially that closing piece of advice is something that will resonate with everybody. And I've thought a lot actually, starting up my career as an insecure young man that wanted to make millions and thinking that life was this kind of sprint where you can sac... Everything else can wait, including relationships, social, you know, relationships, romantic relationships, family. Well, I get this thing, getting the thing and realizing that that the kind of the thing just moves forward off into the distance like a mirage.

1:37:14Then I've read Simon's book about infinite games and thinking, okay, how would I design every system in my life so that I could run those systems for 40 or 50 years in a sustainable way? And this is one of the ones, this is one of the systems, this podcast is one of the ones where I need to continue to remind myself that I need to design it in a way that is sustainable for 40 years of my life, including the period where I have seven kids and a mortgage and a wife that needs me to be there. And also not just for me, but for all the people that work here as well. And everyone can relate to that, especially people that are being dragged.

1:37:49Sure, in some way. Beautiful. We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they are leaving the question for.

1:38:03You get a 60 second phone call with a previous version of yourself.

1:38:13What do you say? You then get to pass the phone to someone who is in your life at that moment, and you get 60 seconds to speak to them too. What do you say? What do you say? I think I would call up the 18 -year -old version of myself. and tell him that it's okay to be who you are, that you don't have to live up to anybody's expectations, that you don't need to earn love. and the best gift that you could give to yourself would be to find out what you love, to discover the animating force within you and above all to nurture that, to mute out all the noise of the external world, the social and familial pressures, and to just find a way to be comfortable with who you are because who you are is a hundred percent fine and you don't need to be anyone else in order to be accepted or loved.

1:39:36And the corollary that would be to not get caught up in trying to make decisions about the rest of your life or your career path at such a young age, but to instead explore and invest in as many experiences as you possibly can to live lean and to be adventurous. And then I would say, put your mother on the phone and I would tell her, I know you love your son, but you got I'll leave him alone and let him be him.

1:40:19Why would you say that? How many hours do you have?

1:40:29I understand. Rich, thank you so much for an incredibly, very life -changing conversation in many ways, but for your honest and your vulnerability and for all the work you do, because it's people like you that paved the way for what I do here and we're big fans of yours. I mean, that's why I reached out to you and wanted to have you on the show. So I'm so privileged and honored that you said yes. I freaked out a little bit when you responded because I've spent a lot of time watching a lot of your episodes. I love the way you do what you do, the integrity in which you do it shines through. And everything you said to me today about authenticity and being more aligned with yourself now makes perfect sense.

1:41:04It makes sense as to why what I've seen from your content and the way you've lived and the man that I've met today, I see the alignment. So thank you for the inspiration and thank you for the kindness and generosity today. I really appreciate that, Steve, and that means a lot. I have crazy respect for your mission and what you guys are doing here. And I've loved watching your trajectory and it was a real honor to come and talk to you today. And man, you're good. I'm really good at this. You're like, I was like, wow. What do we talk about?

1:41:55So... Key one is often when businesses start implementing new systems and processes in hopes of creating efficiencies for the year ahead. And over the course of my career, I've learnt just how crucial having the right systems in places, one which has helped me across many of my investments is NetSuite. They're also a sponsor of this podcast. NetSuite is the number one cloud financial system through their streamlined platform. You'll find all of your accounting financial management inventory and HR in one place. Their technology has been a real game changer, especially for my team at Flight Studio.

1:42:28As over the last year, We've moved out of startup mode and into scale at mode. We no longer have to juggle multiple systems and having everything together has reduced the number of manual tasks and arrows. Over 41 ,000 businesses have chosen to future proof their business with NetSuite. So if you'd like to learn how it can help your business, head to NetSuite .com slash Bartlett and free download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning. That's NetSuite .com slash Bartlett.