Jada Pinkett Smith (EXCLUSIVE): “I just wanted to stay ALIVE until 4pm!”, “Me & Will Are NOT Together”, “Tupac Kissed Me TWICE!”

31:31It's crazy. People will find it hard to believe that at that age and that environment, it wasn't a romantic thing. I know people have had a really hard time, you know, understanding that. Pock and I had a hard time understanding why it just didn't, we didn't have it. And I talk about it in a book, you know, that being on the back of porch of my house and we're like, having this discussion, I'm like, okay, Pock just kissed me. And he kisses me and it's the most disgusting kiss between us both. I mean, he pulled back just like, and I pulled back and I was like, see, dummy, you know, and from there it was just like, and then there was one more time.

32:17He kissed me and it was just like, and I talk about that and, and Jail when I go to see him in Danomora. That's a whole other thing. And once again, it's just like, dude, it doesn't work. But throughout our relationship, we definitely had this beautiful closeness that was really intimate, but never physically intimate. A lot of emotional intimacy, a lot of intellectual intimacy. We just knew how to reach each other in ways that was very difficult. We knew how to get around each other's walls. And we didn't get offended when we would fall into our defaults of defense, which could be pretty fierce between the two of us.

33:21He was quite a powerhouse and so was I. We could be very challenging when we got riled up. So arguments, we were very passionate, but because we were one in the same in that way, we kind of understood that language. Like, oh, this joke is it. You know what I mean? So we didn't get offended a lot until one particular time, which comes later in the book. When you come from the same place, you know the origin stories, you don't have that misunderstood thing to talk about because you understand. I just understood him. I just understood him and he understood me. He really got me. And he really knew how to pull my co -tales in ways that a lot of people didn't.

34:04And saying for me with him, I just knew how to reach him in ways that had everything to. And I think because we didn't have that kind of, I think sometimes physical intimacy can really get in the way. You know, and I think that God just made it that way in which God was like, no, no, no, I need you to be. I got a plan. So that's not part of plan. Did you know, did you, in your heart of heart, know that two -park was going to go on to do what he did? I knew he was going to go to do something. I did not know he would become the two -park we know him to be. But I knew he was going to do something great.

34:57In hindsight, when you look back at who he was, the character traits, the ingredients that were within him, why did he go on to do what he did? What was it about him? He wore his heart on his sleeve and he could join you. And so what I mean by joining you is that he's not talking at you. He's talking with you. He had a way of being able to speak about subject matters that he's going to sit with you in your broken heart and speak to you from there. Because he knows that broken heart. He's lived that broken heart. So, and whether it's your broken heart, whether it's your rage, but he just knew how to penetrate those emotional spaces in people.

35:54And that's what I mean by joining you. He knew how to join you emotionally in so many different verticals of emotion. You know, he was supremely intelligent as well. He was so authentic also and so raw that I think that was really refreshing as well. He gave you him. And he was unapologetic. So he's going to give you his intelligence. He's going to give you his fear. He's going to give you his pain. He's going to give you his anger. You know, he's going to give you his sympathy. He's going to give you his understanding. Right? But it was coming from that heart space, that real space within. It wasn't a gimmick.

36:46It wasn't like, oh, I'm going to talk about this because this is what's hot. No. You know, right, wrong and indifferent. He gave you his truth. And some truth people could rock with with them. And some truth you couldn't, you know what I mean? And but regardless, it was what was real for him at that time. He was always authentic. But it's not easy. It comes with a cost, right? It comes with a cost. Because it's almost the opposite of conformity in a way with interest. Yeah, exactly. And he was a rebel in that way. And I think people really, at points in his career, you know, he could say, he would speak for the community.

37:32And then at points of his career, he would speak from that really intimate place of woundedness. Yeah, mama. Yeah, you know, that so many of us related to nobody was speaking to us in that way. That could go from ambitions of a rider to shed so many tears to a soldier's story. Come on. Come on. You know, too. I mean, he had so he could speak to us from so many different angles. That is just the evidence of authenticity, isn't it? Because people are multifaceted in their nature. No one is just ambition of a rider. Yeah. We were all the shades, right? But rap music, especially back then, was very narrowing.

38:24It was like, this is how to be a rapper. Yes. So someone willing to be authentic. It's funny I've seen this over and over again. They are the most resonant people in the world because they represent us in a way that a lot of others aren't brave enough to represent us in. That's also what vulnerability does. Yes. That's what you do as well in this book. What they do. Because you're willing to lay it all out. We can relate to many people will be able to relate to many parts of you. And, you know, without books like this, we get narrow views. And those narrow views, I mean, those are crafted by other people.

38:57And they're the least relatable narratives, right? Yeah, and we're also multi -dimensional. You move to LA, you're working three jobs. You start trying to climb into the ladder of Hollywood. At this point, you meet a certain fresh prince. Yeah. The savior prince. The savior prince. Oh, yeah. And I was quite shocked by, I think of, I think of Will Smith. I think charismatic, he's a good -looking guy. Yeah. You didn't seem to think that way. No. No, not at first, yeah. What did you think at first? I mean, he was the fresh prince. I was like, okay, he's cool, you know? But I was like, not the guy for me, you know.

39:44Why was he too soft? I wouldn't say he, I wouldn't say soft. I would just say that he didn't seem deep. And I talk about this in the book. How, at that time, a troubled dude seemed deep to me. Versus just troubled. Right. So I stay away from the troubles. Right. And so he wasn't troubled. It didn't seem to be, right? And so I was like, that's not deep. Like he just seems like, you know, just didn't draw me in that way. You don't feel the same way anymore, though, do you? No. The deep parts. No, he's actually, yeah. Exactly, yeah. Yeah, don't judge a book by its cover. That's what Will Smith taught me.

40:36It was like, not to judge a book by its cover. And I learned that, you know, years later, when we had an opportunity to have, you know, we had a mutual friend. And so we were able to share some time at Jerry's Delhi over a meal. And I got to see a totally different side of him. Dwayne. Dwayne Martin. Yeah. You went to that jacket potato place. Yeah, the baked potato. Mm -hmm. What did you see in Will that night? I found it really interesting because one of the things that you described seeing in him was someone who was quite adamant in taking over the world. Yeah. He was so ambitious. You know, and in such a beautiful way, he had big dreams, big dreams.

41:20And he was so joyful. He was really joyful, but grounded. And that was the part that I missed. He was grounded. It was like he'd been through some things, and he was really intelligent. So he's what you call, you know, he could go from the hood to the White House and everywhere in between. Right. And I always find people like that fascinated that have a wide range within them, places that they can go. You know, you drop Will anywhere and he's going to figure it out and fit in. He don't want you to be his own screen girlfriend, I'd mean. He, okay. Yeah. So I auditioned for Fresh Prince. I think it was the second year to pay one of his girlfriends, and they were like, you're too short.

42:25And I was like, all right, cool. So that was the first time that I actually met Will. I came out of the casting, and he was, you know, coming into the casting office or about to leave or something. And he was like, hey, I was like, yeah, what's up? You know, I was like, no need to talk to me. They already said, I'm short. Yeah. So on my way. And then, and I think I think I was probably about 20. And he wanted, he wanted me to play his girlfriend as a series regular. So he flew in to North Carolina to meet me. And I was like, no, I'm going to do movies now. And he was like, all right, cool. That's a, that's a bowl.

43:14That's a big rejection. So reject the fresh Prince of Bala when he says you can be his sort of recurring on screen girlfriend in a hit show. And you say, TV's not for me. I'm going to focus on movies. Big cool. Well, I had just done it. I had just come off of a different world. And I knew like, I had the protection of Debbie Allen on a different world. Right? And so when I wanted to make moves, Debbie was there to help me. That's not to say that I would have that same assistance on fresh Prince. And at that time, they locked you in. You couldn't do anything. You know what I mean? They have you for six years.

43:54They got you locked. And I just didn't want to be locked like that. And so I really wanted to try my hand at doing movies. And then Dewey Martin, when I turned wheeled down, Dewey Martin got on me. Because he felt the same way you did. It was just like, it's financial security. How could you let something like this go? And you know, who's to say when your next starring move, you know, role is going to come in and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, but I'm so glad that I didn't take that role. Because I tell you what, if I had taken that role, Will and I would not have been married. And I wouldn't have had Jaden and Willow and Ben Trey's bonus mob.

44:33My life would have been totally different. Are you sure? I'm positive. Yeah. As in you were sure that you wouldn't have gotten married. I'm positive. Because you were seeing the red flags. I listened. No. Yeah, no. Earthquakes are hard to predict. Sometimes you feel traumas ahead of time. Often they come on suddenly. And in your early 20s, you had your first, maybe not even your first, but what you describe in the book is your first breakdown, personal earthquake when you're driving down the street one day. Mental health and psychiatry have come a long way since then. I would guess that at the time many people wouldn't have been able to tell you what that was.

45:23I had no idea what was going on. Me just thinking about that moment. It's like, I was so overwhelmed. And I was like, I didn't know what was going on with me. And it came over me in an instant. I was fine one moment. I'm turning my car around to meet a friend on the corner that I saw to say hello to her. And all of a sudden, my body shaking. All these emotions come over me. And I'm like, I'm starting to, it's like waterfall of like tears. And I'm like, and I have no idea. Like my brain is not catching up to what is happening with my body. All I know is that this waterfall, this volcano of emotions, it was fear, anger, despair.

46:23And I was like, I got, and she was looking at me like, are you okay? And I was like, I don't know. And I get in the car. And I'm trying to drive. And I'm like, you can't drive. Pull over. And then I pull over. And then I just remember feeling terrified to just let it go. And I let it go. And then I'm like, I want to die. I want to die. And I remember making it home. And all I could do was call my mother and say, you got to come here and I killed myself. And I think about that. And I'm just like, wow. And my mother was like, she was maybe a year into her sobriety. And what a terrifying call to get.

47:20Like, if I get that call from Willow or Jade and Atre. And it's like, and so she's figuring out, because she just started a job at this hospital. I'm so terrified to be by myself. I call my homegirl, MC Light. And I tell her, it's like, you got to come out here. I'm afraid to be alone by myself. I'm going to do something to myself. And she flies out. And so she holds me down into my mother comes. It's a crazy moment.

48:05Have you figured out what your body was telling you? I think my body was telling me that I think my mind was telling me, hey. We have some things we got to pay attention to up here. Enough with, let's keep it moving. I'm going to make it so you're not going to just be able to keep it moving anymore. You have some things that you got to pay attention to, some things that need to be addressed. And at the time, like you were just talking about, nobody was talking about mental health. At all. And specifically, mental health was considered like a white people thing. Like people don't have mental health issues.

49:01And so suicide for sure was a white people thing. So I was real confused. I felt really, I felt like something has gone really, really, really wrong here. Because nobody else like me feels like this. Nobody knows what's going on. And maybe I'm losing my mind. I'm actually going crazy. No. So it was a scary time. When I read about that, it sounded to me like you had been playing defense for just a little bit too long. Yeah, for sure. And that's, I guess, one of the costs of the toughness, right? Like, as you say, we'll just keep moving. We'll just keep it moving. No, it's going to catch you. You can deal with it or it will deal with you.

50:01Those are your two choices. But you did keep it moving, even in that moment it seemed to seem like you carried on with the work. I think you were, you were recommended to go and see a psychiatrist. Yeah, I went to see a psychiatrist. They put me on Prozac. And I started therapy. I started therapy. But it does still appear that you kept it moving because you kept working. You didn't seem to want to show anybody outside of your inner circle. Hell no. Absolutely not. Because that's what we do. We keep it moving. Right? And so I was like, I got the help that I need. I got a doctor and I'm on Prozac.

50:49Right. I'm like, okay, I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing. And I can't let anybody know. And we want to keep this moving because that's what we do. Plaster over cracks. Yeah, we just, at that time, I'm going to take a break because, you know, I'm having, I'm depressed. What? At that time, that seemed absolutely ridiculous. Q1 is often when businesses start implementing new systems and processes in hopes of creating efficiencies for the year ahead. And over the course of my career, I've learnt just how crucial having the right systems in places, one which has helped me across many of my investments is NetSuite.

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52:08And free download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning. That's netsuite .com slash Bartlett. Do you go back to Baltimore? I did. I went back to Baltimore. I was going to continue working but not live in LA anymore. So I bought a farmhouse. I bought a little farmhouse on, I want to say it was about six acres. My six or nine acres if I remember correctly. And it was, I was going to build a life there for myself. A little quiet corner. And I was like, all right, if I need to audition, I'll either go to New York or I can just fly back and forth from LA. Herd Will was trying to hit you up at this point in your life.

53:02Yeah, he hit me up. He had just, she had just sent him divorce papers. And he decides to call me. And of course, me not knowing anything about marriage, thinking at marriage, you know, break up of a marriage, just like breaking up with a boyfriend. He's like, you know, where are you? And I'm like, I'm in Baltimore, you know, renovating my house. And he's like, are you seeing anybody? And I'm like, no, he's like, good, you seeing me now. And I was like, what? Once again, that kind of bold, you know, approach. I was just like, oh, clutch my pearls a little bit. So he was like, you know, call me.

53:42And you get back to LA. So when I got back to LA, I called him and we went out on our first date. In and around that time, Pack had been sentenced to Rikers, right? He'd been sentenced to jail for... He'd been sentenced to... At that point in time, he was at Rikers, but then he was on his way to Danomora. Which is a horrific place where they send terrorists. Yeah. Yeah. I think the 9 -11, some of the people that were involved with 9 -11, all the well -trade center, bombings were sent to Danomora. While he's in jail.

54:16While he's in jail, what do you have here?

54:22Oh. Yeah. Now as I slip from grace in the world has turned against me. A few claim to have loved for me, but once again, you show your love. After deep reflection and spiritual awakening, I have come to realize the friend, love and soulmate, was there all the time. I have not seen or felt from anywhere, anyone, the intensity and loyalty that you have shown me. That is why I want to commit myself to you. I want to marry you. He sends you that letter. Yeah. It's much longer letter than that, but that's the words that I put in the book. I'm a marriage proposal. That's why he was in Rikers. When I went to go see him in Rikers and Rikers is actually...

55:09That's really... Danomora might be where they put terrorists.

55:18Rikers is like...

55:24I remember going to see him there.

55:30He was in such bad shape. You know? And I... Rikers, I... Yeah. Rikers was... That. Danomora, yeah, terrorists are there, but... Far more humane conditions than I would say Rikers.

56:01It feels like the emotion is still right on the surface with you and you think back to these... These moments in your life. Oh, yeah. It feels like I just came back from seeing him in the park at Rikers and I had to leave him there. It's just like yesterday. But I'm also in a very raw place in my life right now as I'm throwing out, as I'm dismantling my defenses. You know, I call it the thought out. I mean, a really raw place. Obviously, Pac was... He gets out of jail and... Shug night. I mean, I get talking about timing. I think it was like a week ago or two weeks ago that someone's been convicted for two packs of murder.

56:46A lot of emotions. Yeah. How did you feel when you heard about the conviction or that someone that arrested an arrest had been made?

57:00I was like, I was glad that an arrest had been made. This was someone who we had known had been in the car. He had done some street interviews about it, you know. And I was just hoping I was like, well, I hope they bring him in because we're going to get some other questions answered. So, you know, my hope is that we'll get more questions answered. In the book, you question, but then you confirm that Pac knew how you felt about him when he passed away because you and him hadn't been speaking. No. And I think there's a really important lesson in this for all of us. Yeah. We had a huge fight. Huge.

58:01It was one of the biggest fights we had ever had.

58:07And it was about how he had been living, you know. And I really, at that time, you know, really had to let him know my position that I just felt like.

58:33You know, where he was sitting with everything was just.

58:42It wasn't going to end up well. Right.

58:52And we had a magnanimous, I mean, it was just beyond the two of us just at each other.

59:06And I was just like, fuck that. I'm not calling him this time. He's going to have to call me. He was way out of line. So I really dug my hills, heels in the ground in regards to like, nah. You know, I let my pride, I let my ego come in. I really took for granted that he would be living forever. Like he had already survived so much. Like it never, like I never, I looked at Pac as being invincible at this point. You know, because he survived so much, even so much that people don't know about, you know.

59:47But just like I say in the book, I'm like, man, don't do it. Don't do it. Don't hold on to like that prideful part of yourself, you know, with someone you really care about. Like, nah, you know, he don't have to call me at the time. You know, I was like, nope. Was that the last time you spoke to him? That was the last time I spoke to him. That was the last time I spoke to him.

1:00:18I was the last time I spoke to him. And you know what's crazy? It meant absolutely nothing. It meant absolutely nothing. And so that's the test I always have. I'm like, okay, you're in this beef with somebody. Will this beef matter in your deathbed? And then right away, I'm like, nope. Let me get my call. You know what I'm saying?

1:00:47That's my test.

1:00:52Almost a year later, he gets shot in Las Vegas. You get a phone call while you're filming on set that he's from, I believe from his mother. And he's in hospital in a coma. And a few days after that, you find out that he's passed away. Yeah, I was on my way. You know, Faye was like, no rush. He's going to be fine. He had his fiance there with him and his family.

1:01:24She was like, so, you know, come after your trip in New York. So I was on my way to him.

1:01:35And my girlfriend, Faye, came to the door and she, you know, I knew as soon as I saw her face that he was gone.

1:01:46Oh, I know that picture. Yep, that was Thanksgiving. He came to LA to spend Thanksgiving with me. And we were at one of my friends house. You look like brother and sister. Yeah, we look like brothers sister because that's what we were. Yeah, he came to Thanksgiving to spend Thanksgiving with me. We talked about mental health earlier. Do you know how to grieve someone, the loss of someone like that in your life? No, I'm still working out my relationship with grief. Actually, I haven't really, yeah, I'm still working that out. Because this chapter of your life was loss. Unmorn loss. Chapter 12 of your book.

1:02:45I've got this other picture that I found that I thought was relevant. Oh, now you, do you know why this is relevant? I do. Maxine and two Parker both in that picture. And the same picture.

1:03:03Yeah. I have a tissue.

1:03:19Thanks.

1:03:30You get nice hugs.

1:03:38Yeah, that's a... Yeah.

1:03:58Sorry.

1:04:05Yeah, I lost Maxine and Parker back to back. So I like to, you know, this picture to be flanked by them. Yeah, I lost him back to back. Maxine was a good friend of yours. Parker was your brother? Yeah, she was like my sister, you know. She, I met Maxine on Jason's Lyric.

1:04:42And we became like super tight. And she lived in Canada. And so she wanted to come to Hollywood and make a career for herself. So I told her that she could come live with me. So she came to live with me. She, we feel as though she had a misdiagnosis. She had some kind of thyroid disorder that really disrupted her psyche. And she ended up jumping off her mother's balcony. She committed suicide.

1:05:38So that was really tough.

1:05:44It seems unimaginable that that chapter and season of your life could be filled with so much loss and so much complicated loss. Because in all of these situations as you write about in the book, there are reflections where you say in the book, if I, you know, you're left with this feeling, if I had done this, I could maybe I should have done it like this. I wish I'd treat that situation differently in hindsight as we know as a wonderful thing, isn't it? Right. And I've said a lot of people that have lost a lot of people by suicide and they all have the same reflections. They all have that last phone call with the person where they had to put up a boundary and yeah, you know, I've sat here, even in LA in that chair with I remember boss, her partner at the time calling and saying, listen, if you don't come and do this, I'll jump off his bridge and then he does.

1:06:34Yeah. It's like that existential disappointment of just life being what it is. It's like grieving that grieving.

1:06:52It's like she in a, she went from this like happy person to like having this condition that just right. And so I just, sometimes I just go, this is when I just have to like reconcile with God.

1:07:17It's like, wow, God, like you really be doing some stuff. Like, you know what I mean? And it's like, and sometimes I get in grief around what life is. And then I have to make peace with it. It feels, I think, to be thinking about your story, it feels confusing that God could seemingly hand someone so much, you know, go wonderful, career, wonderful family, all of those things, but at the same time. And maybe there's a relationship, maybe there's a relationship between the two because had you not had the, had you not come from where you came from. Maybe you wouldn't have had all the wonderful things that you have, but also had you not come from where you came from.

1:08:07Maybe you wouldn't have experienced all the loss that you've experienced. So maybe there's a relationship between the two because I've not experienced that loss, but I don't come from where you come from. I didn't lose friends growing up. I didn't lose friends in my 20s either. Right. Having all the different experiences that I've had as painful as some of them are, it gives me the opportunity to join people in a certain manner. You know, and in really powerful places, you know, like I have a beautiful friendship with Lauren London, and she is the widow of Nipsey hustle. And because of the loss that I went through with Pock, I could reach out to her and I could go, hey, anytime you need anything, anytime you need to talk, I'm here.

1:09:16And Lauren's quite like me, defenses, you know what I mean? But I just kept walking closer and closer, and I just say all that to say that we've been able to meet each other in a certain place because of the type of losses we've had. That can really create beautiful connection. You feel me? I feel you. Yeah. So, there are blessings in pain. You just got to know that to be true and wait for that door to open. And that's just one tiny example of the blessings that I've found in a lot of the loss that I've had in my life in general. You know? It's almost an irony or a paradox in the fact that your pain caused a disconnection, but then the pain caused connection.

1:10:23Deep.

1:10:28Because heartbreak, there's this beautiful scene in heartbreak, which is like it breaks you open. It breaks you open. And you've got two places that you can go. You can go into the deep wells of darkness. Or you can go into the deep wells of light. And I've been to both.

1:10:57And I've learned I ain't trying to be over here no more. You know what I mean? So I always use heartbreak, discontent pain to help me search for bright light and beautiful blessings within them. In the opener of the book, you described in the prologue, the life that the world would have seen in over the next sort of 10 years of your life before you're before you turned 40, you describe the, you know, your super successful Hollywood actress. You've got this husband who is, you know, well Smith and he's a super successful Hollywood actor. You got these kids, you got the family, you got the house, you got it all.

1:11:43Yeah. Externally you're killing the game. So it's, you must be killing the game. Right. Internally, you know, I was spiritually bankrupt. Right. I find it so, I find it so interesting hearing you describe the relationship that both you and Will had as it relates to conflict resolution. I find it so interesting because I've come to learn over the last couple of years that the way we deal with conflict predicts the long term health of our relationships. Oh God, yeah. And I think there's this professical professor. I think it's called Professor John Gottman who studied couples and tried to figure out why they end up in divorce.

1:12:19And he says the number and reason is because they build contempt. Tempt. That's all about conflict resolution. That is. How you dealing with your board share. Yes. Absolutely. Now you remind me of my partner because she wants connection. She wants to talk. She wants to resolve things. She's, you know, she wants to deal with the emotions. I would like to not. Right. I'll buy you something to make sure that you're safe. Right. I'll pay for your stuff. Right. But I just want to work. Yeah. And that's the way you describe it. And so I resonated with Will in that. But I, you sharing how you felt throughout that story helped me to understand my partner.

1:12:59And all the conversations she's had with me about what she actually wants from me. And we miss understanding her because we have different love languages. Yeah. And your love language starts when you're a kid, right? Yeah. For sure. And Will's does too. Absolutely. What was that conflict of your love languages? Will's, you know, was very much like yours. It's like, mm -hmm. I want to work. I want to work hard so that you can have everything in the world that you'd ever want. You know, I'm, you're not going to need for anything. Right. And my love language was like, but I just want you to be here with me.

1:13:37I don't need all of that stuff. I want to look in your eyes and, you know, feel your love and feel your protection here with me. And, you know, it's like that connection. I wanted to feel like I wanted to make a masterpiece out of our connection. You know, and he wanted to make a masterpiece out of, you know, the life itself. Right. And neither is wrong. Neither is wrong. And that's what I had to learn. That's where we've come to now in understanding. Neither one of those wants are wrong. How do you balance them? Because it can't be one or the other. How do we balance it? Like, yin and yang. Everything about life is balance.

1:14:33If I just want you to know that. Yeah, you're right. You're just going to make it. Yeah, I just want you to know that because as couples, we get into these power struggles. No, my way is right. No, my way is right. Well, if you didn't have this, you know, you know, you're not... I get into all of that. Right. And it's like, stop. It's not about anybody being right or wrong. How do you get the balance of it? That's it. Right. And so, you know, it took, willing out three decades. I remember that coming from... Yeah, three decades, okay. Three decades. That's what we'll get to that. We'll get you.

1:15:20It doesn't have to be that, you know? It's like, do it now. Because that's what I've said to my girlfriend is I've told her that. I've got this opportunity now because things are going well in my career. So, I just want to focus for now. And then we're going to have all of our lives together. Actually, she said that's what we're doing. She reminded me of it when we were arguing. Yeah. I was like, we're going to have all of our lives together. So, like, we'll connect later. It's like, what? It's kind of foolishness is that. You know what I mean? And I'm going to tell you like this.

1:15:54I bet you when you're in your deathbed, you're not going to think about whatever it is you're trying to accomplish and achieve. What do you think you're going to think about most when you're in your deathbed? How you loved and how you loved, no? 100%. Okay. And even as I said it, I thought about two -pack and how you never know how long you've got left with someone. You don't know. Why would you ever want to wait and put that off? It's an excuse though, isn't it? It is an excuse. To justify my own toxic or I could have polysum. Well, you know, I wouldn't call it toxic. I'm always careful with this word toxic.

1:16:35I'm going to throw it around, right? Because we're also wounded. Exactly. And it's not, listen.

1:16:43When intimacy makes us have to look at our shit.

1:16:50Right? It's easy to go, I piss you off. I got you this diamond ring. I got you this beautiful bag. I'm going to take you on this trip. It's like, right? But like real emotional intimacy. We got to deal with our stuff. A lot of stuff comes up there. But that's where connection and love and true happiness. True fulfillment is what's going on in our inner landscape. You talk of this loss of identity when you married well. And this is quote I wrote down. It feels like I can't grasp my own journey. At times I feel resentful and angry. I don't know what to do about it. You and I will have these two sort of different visions for happiness in your lives together.

1:17:47Here's being that he wanted to take over the world as a global. You know, movie star, all the things that he is. And within there you start to lose yourself a little bit, it seems. This word resentful. Yeah. Very interesting word. Yeah. Can you give color to that word? Why you chose to use that word? Because it's true. You know, it was like I felt as though at that time.

1:18:15All right. If I want to help you do all of those things, I'm here to help you with that. Right.

1:18:26And I'm like, and in return, I should get a bit of what I want, which is connection. Right. And so you just, for me, just giving and giving and giving and giving and giving and forgiving, well, not even forgetting, not realizing that I was abandoning myself. In the hopes that if I just keep pouring into this, if I just keep pouring into him, if I keep pouring into his dream, I'm going to eventually get what I want. Right. And that's a false idea in so many ways, right. In so many of us do that. If we'll look back and was trying to give me whatever the hell it was, I was asking for. He wouldn't have been able to accomplish it anyway.

1:19:24Because if I'm not connected to myself, if I don't have a good relationship with me, there's nothing he can do. So I was going to be asked out anyway. You don't know what I'm saying. So it's like that's part of the journey. There's no right or wrong. Everybody's always trying to find the good guy or bad guy in people's stories. There's no good guys or bad guys. We're all wounded trying to figure this shit out. You know. And so it took me a long time to realize it is not his responsibility to make you happy. He can't. It's impossible. But it took me forever. Hardheaded stubborn, you know, because that romantic idea.

1:20:13And that's why I talk about checking the boxes. It's like I did everything I was supposed to do.

1:20:22You get to have your dream. How come I'm not having mine? And that's because Will was doing what he wanted to do. He was making himself happy. He was making himself happy. And he says that to you. Doesn't he? He says when you separate, he says he wants you to go. He's like, go. Go. Go make yourself happy. Go make yourself happy. And how did you receive that? Not well.

1:20:52Not well because, you know, there can be truth. But you know what I'm saying? It's like how we, you know, I think it was very true. But I think at that particular point of time, I was just still really resentful. I'm just like, you know, oh, so I helped you get your happy. And now you just going, you know, don't mean to the curb. And, you know, I got to do it all on my own now, you know. But that's the truth. I had to do it all my own. You know, just like he did. You got to do it on your own. You got to do it on your own. You got to do it on your own.

1:21:35And a lot of that's what this is about. And me detoxing from needing fulfillment and validation outside of myself, detoxing from needing it from will, my marriage, my family, a career, like I had to get to the bare bones of Jada and walk what I call the ex -Outlands. And those ex -Outlands are going into the crevices of, you know, those places with the end that were holding me back from myself. All the fears, all of the false information and false ideas of what life is and what a marriage is supposed to be. And, you know, who I was supposed to be, what a wife is like, all of it. Perfection isn't it?

1:22:32Perfectionism. And then I just went off to be completely imperfect and to joy in that. Because being in Hollywood, I mean, this is a place that values the appearance of perfectionism. Like every, let's perfect on the surface. Yeah. And I think it's not a healthy idea. It's just not healthy. And it's not true. And nobody can live up to that, you know, which is why I've been dismantling that need to be perfect for myself. And that's been a painful ride.

1:23:15Beading up to your 40th birthday, which is also where the book starts. I read the first pages of the prologue and I couldn't quite believe what I was reading. Because the place you're at in your life, this chronic state of discontent that you describe, I remember when I got to the chapter 17 in the book, which is no soccer mom here, that was the first time I had to stop reading because it was a lot of lot for me to take. Hearing that, that's what was going on in your head in your mind. That's the way you viewed life. You didn't see any path forward for you. You're 39 years old, apparently, you know, on the surface, it seems like you've got everything that anyone would dream of having.

1:24:00But internally, there's this chronic state of discontent.

1:24:10If I was, I often say to people, if I was a fly on the wall, but if I was a fly inside the walls. Yeah. What was going through your mind, 39 years old, about to turn 40? I was in a very, very dark place. Very dark place. Just, I remember the line I read where you said, if I got to 4pm every day. I was like, I made it. I made it. And even that was like so hard. I mean, you know, I was talking to my mother this morning because she just read the book. And she said, I can't believe you didn't talk about how you woke up every day crying. Really? Yeah. And I was like, you know, my, I just, I think it was enough to tell people that I was looking for a cliff to drive off of.

1:25:04You know, and what she brought up was like, she knew I was unhappy, but she didn't know why. So, wasn't that people around me didn't know that I was really unhappy? Is just that everybody believed what I believed, which is why I was so hard for me to talk about, which is like, you've got everything. What are you unhappy about? Right? And so that's how I was feeling. You've got everything. What are you unhappy about?

1:25:41And that was just, I had so much shame around that because I didn't understand. And even then, there wasn't a lot of conversation around mental health. And so I was just like, fuck it. I can't keep doing this. I went out. And it was just a really, really dark time. When you say you were looking for a cliff to drive off of, you're not saying that theoretically or as a metaphor? No, I'm saying I was looking to the point where I was like, big sir. I knew exactly the route to drive. And it's this really narrow route. And sometimes it gets really foggy there at night. And I'm not making it out of that drop.

1:26:37I remember driving that one time going to big sir, because I was looking like here, like, oh, my, and I was like, these drops aren't going to, like, I need a drop that I'm not making it back. And I want to be just figured. I don't want, I want out. And I knew I had to make it look like an accident because I did not want my kids to think that I had committed suicide.

1:27:08Now I was, I was, yeah, I was in a lot of pain. I was in a really, really dark place. And when you're in that place, you just can't see your way out. And you really think I really thought something was really wrong with me because what I was feeling wasn't matching the exterior of my life. So I really did feel like I was just born broken. And I was just wired in a way that just was like, what was the truth? If that's how you felt, what was in hindsight now, what do you know to be the truth of that emotion in that state of your life, 39, 40 years old, what was actually going on?

1:28:04That I really feel like that sometimes when we get into these states of wanting to die, you know, for those of us who have had like suicidal thoughts, I'm going to have you, sometimes it is chemical. That's a different thing. I think mine was more psychological. Something is asking to die, but not you. And it's a, it's a different way of looking at things. Right? And so, and it's an extreme shift in which I had to get out of my cycle of self -hatred. I was in a cycle of self -hatred that I didn't even know because we're unconscious of it. So the mind is tricking us, you know what I mean? We got to be careful with this.

1:29:05This isn't as reliable as we think, you know? And so, but I was in a cycle of self -hatred. And it wasn't until, thank God for my son, that I was, you know, he introduced me, his friend's father did ayahuasca, and they happened to be talking about it, and they talked to me about it. Jaden came in the kitchen, he was like, you got to sit down with Moises and Mateo, you got to hear about this experience, Ma, that their dad had. Was Jaden saying that intentionally? Did he know that you needed him? No, he wasn't saying that. He was just curious. He was just, he knows I'm curious, he knows I'm a seeker.

1:29:48Right? Right. That was divine. And so I went and talked to them, and I was like, hey, is your dad in town? And then their dad came, and I talked to him, and he, I was like, I need that. And then the universe opened up a door for me to have my own ceremony for days of like intense, intense ceremony, but that's when I got to see that cycle of self -hatred. I was like, this is you. These are your thoughts. This is how you feel about yourself. This is the problem. And so the medicine really showed me this pit of self -hatred I was in, and it helped me get it. And out of it. Chapter 20 of the book, you titled Surrender.

1:30:49Yeah. Surrender is an interesting word. Why is Surrender so important in your journey? You have to surrender everything you think you are and everything you think you know. I've spoken to a lot of people that have done alcoholics anonymous, and they talk about the importance of surrender. Surrender, yeah. It's like surrendering, you know, for me, also surrendering to a power, or higher power. And that's a constant. That's every day. I have to remind myself and deepen my surrender to a power far greater than myself. Chapter 21, the Holy Joke, the Holy Slap, and the Holy Lessons. It's interesting because there's similarities between Chapter 19 and Chapter 21 in that you took a lot of the blame for situations.

1:31:42Chapter 19, the entanglement conversation. Yeah. Because when you watch that clip online at the red table, Will looks tired and he looks sad. And he says that thing, he says, I'm going to get you back. Yeah. It made it look like you had cheated on him or something. Right. I had to like check the facts because if you see that clip in isolation, it looks like you cheated on Will or something. Yeah. Which is not what happened. Yeah. But you put that out anyway. I did. You could have not put that out. I know. You regret putting that out. No. You don't? I don't. If I didn't put that out, I wouldn't have seen that next place of healing that I needed.

1:32:20Because I can take so much like discomfort. It wasn't until I saw how the people around me were affected. I mean, my mother, my kids, my friends, people like they were like, how could you do this? And I was like, well, I just wanted to end everything, you know, Will wasn't ready for the world to know that we weren't together and that we were living separate lives. And I just took it because I just wanted to stop. I just wanted to end people like, no, my mother was like, what are you? She was like, you need to get your ass in therapy. She was like, you are co -dependent as hell, you know. And everybody was just so, and then how people that love me so much were affected by that time.

1:33:30I don't think it would have penetrated and for me to really look at that part of myself if it hadn't been for how the people around me reacted. Because I don't really care about public in that way, like most people do. I don't, whatever, because I understand the chaos and the just absurdity of all of that. But people who love me, I needed that mirror to see that place of healing that needed to happen in me, in the dynamic within myself. What was that dynamic within yourself? Just like martyrdom. Oh, okay, throwing yourself under the... Yeah, that martyrdom that I will... martyrdom, the holy slap.

1:34:21You write about in the book how you didn't realize that we'll have actually slapped Chris until much later. You thought it suspected maybe it was a skit or a joke. I thought it was a skit and then I realized it wasn't, but I didn't think that he actually made contact with Chris. Look like he ducked. Social media grabbed onto this eye roll. And they, social media believed that that eye roll was some kind of like, go get him, will. Yeah. And even if it was, it was like, I can't force Will to do anything. And you and Will want together. We weren't together as, you know, we were family. Yeah. I was there with him as family, but we weren't together at that time.

1:35:01Were you surprised by the reaction and to that moment, both for you, but also for Will? I don't know. Yes and no. I was surprised at how much. I knew I was going to get blamed, but like, I didn't think that it was going to be. I mean, it was insane, you know, it was like, wow. But I knew, I knew we were, I knew it was going to be a storm. In the book, you say protection is your love language. He protected you, didn't he? Did you see that as an act of love? You know, it's a really complicated moment. It's a really complex moment. I'll say yes and no in a certain manner, you know.

1:35:52But I definitely think in his way. But it was, it was so much more, it wasn't about me. That's why it's complex, right? It's like it was about a lot more than just that moment. A lot more than just me. That's what I know, you know what I mean? Because you know well and you know where he's come from. Yeah, and I, there was a lot that was stirring up for him at that time because of emancipation. And he and Chris have their own history. Going back to the 80s. Yeah, going back to the 80s. And it's a deep one. Jada, thank you. Thank you for writing this book because it's not until we understand people's context that we understand them.

1:36:41And when we understand them, we realize that they are just so much like us. Yeah. In the wounded, the imperfect, the survival, the defense and all of those things. And that's exactly what I got from reading worthy. But also, as I said to you, I think before we start recording, there were so many moments in there that acted as the advice that no one around me could have given me because they've not walked in those stairs. You act as an elder to me in the book because you've helped me to figure out and shine a light on a certain area of my behavior which comes from maybe a wound that I have that is going to hold me back and lead me to a place I don't want to go to.

1:37:19I promise you, yes. Yeah, exactly. And you're right, you use the word breadcrumbs, but that's exactly what the book is. It's these, it's your story, but throughout your story, you leave these little nuggets of wisdom and lessons that will guide those that read the book to a better place in their own lives. And they can subjectively define what that better place is. But the wisdom is enduring because the wisdom is human and it's true. So there's something in there for everybody. It's one of the best books I've ever read because of the writing style, the vividness. I felt like I was in your grandmother's garden.

1:37:48I felt like I was there at all of the key moments when you have what I describe, what I thought was a panic attack on the highway and those moments, the moments of sadness, the vividness of the writing is so profound. But the vulnerability of the book is the most impressive thing. It's easy not to be vulnerable. It's easy to paint an narrative that is self -serving, but that's not what you do here. You seem to be in the pursuit of the truth. And that's exactly what I take away from this book. So thank you so much, Jada. Thank you. Thank you for creating a safe space at your... ...great table. And for holding my tears today.

1:38:26I appreciate that. Thank you.

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