Kamala Harris: America Is At Breaking Point & I'm Deeply Concerned About The State Of The Country!

32:51just virtually that's kind of what it was and so when all of that has been done and it's kind of green light green light through that then it's about sitting down and just deciding um because it it is going to be a partnership right and it has to be it has to be where you feel that you can trust someone you you could work with them you are you're doing it for the same reasons Was it what you thought it was going to be? Being vice president? Yeah. I didn't know exactly what it would be because there's nothing that can compare to it. I mean, I was the 49th vice president of the United States. There have only been 48 before me, right?

33:31And I don't think anything can truly prepare you for what it is because it is a very unique position where you are, again, Again, you are number two in command. So the seriousness of the responsibility is that. I give all credit to now the late President Jimmy Carter who decided when he was president, having come off of Kennedy and Nixon and everything, he decided that the vice president should be given greater responsibilities than had been the case because, God forbid, something happens to the president. There should be a smooth succession. And so Walter Mondale was his vice president and was the first to have an office in the West Wing.

34:21The responsibilities were, again, to meet with world leaders. The responsibilities were to travel the country on behalf of our administration and our policies. It's an incredible responsibility. And, you know, meeting with the variety of people who, for the most part, just want us to achieve good things. When I was reading your book, 107 Days, one of the really surprising things was, but also makes sense when I understand human nature, was that you talk about how some of the president's staff were basically suppressing you a little bit, suppressing your accomplishments, because you're a threat to them.

35:06And I think you were told pretty early on, or you'd heard pretty early on from a chief of staff, that the vice president is kind of seen as a threat to the president. So the lore has it that the outgoing chief of staff to the president will tell the incoming chief of staff to the incoming president, regardless of political party, rule number one, watch the vice president. And lore has it that that's the case. And then I had, of course, run against Joe Biden. I was very and acutely aware that I would have to over and over again prove my loyalty, that it wouldn't be assumed. You say in the book the president's staff was adding fuel to negative narratives that sprung up about me.

35:54Yeah. The president's inner circle seemed fine with it. Indeed, it seemed as if they decided I should be knocked down a little bit more. Yeah. I was shocked when I read that. But at the same time, understood it. Because it's human nature. But also shocked. Because one wouldn't expect that. And it was counterproductive. It was absolutely counterproductive. Was there a particular moment where you realized that this was happening? For the first time? To be candid with you, I had a sense of it for quite some time. But it was after the election that I really started to hear the stories about it. I mean, I had a sense of it.

36:33It was clear to me in terms of just the challenges with getting them to uplift, getting them to defend, especially when there were inaccurate, unfair attacks. And then I started to hear more stories after. And what you mean by that is when there were unfair media attacks on you that could quite easily have been rebuttled or debunked. There was no desire to debunk them. There was – the staff and the resources under the president as compared to the vice president are enormous. And to the extent that the vice president is being attacked, resources were available but not used to defend the vice president in the way that they could have.

37:21That would have been to the benefit of everyone involved. Because that's what I think. There was an argument to say it was in their interests, because if you and Joe Biden are strong, Joe Biden's more likely to then win the next election. Exactly. That's my point. We rose and fell together. Yeah. And did Joe Biden know that that was happening? I don't know if he did. But it's the staff underneath him that are in charge of that. Yeah. Okay. So you're saying that you think they wanted you to be weaker in public perception because that kind of keeps you in your place? I think that that was part of it.

38:03I do. I think that they decided that, you know, there are far too many people in this world and in professional life who approach things with a zero sum game. Yeah. if I have more you have less and it is incredibly short-sighted and I think it's actually quite provincial thinking when you're talking about the stakes that were at play in our administration and of course in the election and you talk about in the book as well on page 47 of 107 days that they also didn't promote your accomplishments because when I read through all the research of the things that you had accomplished, I wasn't aware.

38:48I know. There doesn't seem to be a megaphone shouting about the things you accomplished. So it's very frustrating. I can't even tell you. Frustrating and painful. Really? And well, and also not just for me, but for the people who knew my career and knew what was not being said and what was being said. What wasn't being said? the accomplishments the um the the the credibility of um of my leadership they thought that you say this on page 51 if you were shining then joe biden was dimmed so it was very much in their interests to make sure you were dimmed one could argue then so that joe biden was shining yeah and that was um Again, it was very short-sighted.

39:43Are you friends with Joe Biden? Yes. Is the relationship good? It's a good relationship. I just talked to him two days ago. He called me for my birthday. Is it complicated? Yes, it's very complicated. It is. And as I write in the book, it is very complicated. I have a great deal of affection for him. and there were times that I've been quite candid about where he greatly disappointed me and frankly, you know, angered me.

40:24Can you give me context on that, where he disappointed and angered you? So I write and I, you know, I thought about this. Was I going to write about it or not? And I decided in writing this book I was going to just be honest. And these are the facts and the reader can take what they want from it. On the day of the debate, my debate with Trump. And, you know, so going into a presidential debate is an incredibly intense and intensive project, including what has historically happened that we even called debate camp. Can you imagine? And it's no camp at all. It's going into where you basically are sequestered for a period of time immediately before the debate.

41:16Where did you get all of these? This is Philippe, who played Donald Trump. In your debate camp. In my debate camp. And he never broke character, ever. So this is a fake Trump that was brought in. This is the fake Trump. He would do the makeup, the orange makeup, the long red tie. I, he was just awful, awful, awful in the best way in trying to get me prepared. And there were a lot of people like Philippe. There were a lot of people who are, you know, I'm very fortunate. I have people who have been with me for years and years and years through these various offices. And, you know, even if they go on to different positions, they always come back when needed.

41:59And so debate camp was this intense, basically a preparation process where you, you know, your team will basically try to, they'll break you and then build you back up. So the day of the debate was after that intense period of preparation. And then that morning I had a meeting with my team. I thought it was going to be more prep, but they actually were wonderful and just basically said to me, you're ready. So, okay, then being a woman running for president and many women in various high-level positions get their hair and makeup done. Back to your point about presentation. And it can take hours.

42:45Hair and makeup got done. I'm in the hotel room with Doug, with my husband. And the president calls. and I was told that he wanted to call me so that I'd be ready and I was so sure it was to buck me up and go get him. And he did say that for the first beat. And then he went on to talk about a group of people in Pennsylvania who were saying bad things about me because they heard I was saying bad things about him. And when I hung up the phone, I was just, it was unbelievable. And I was, yes, I was angry and deeply disappointed. It just was so unnecessary. There are only two people in the world other than me that has debated this guy, Hillary Clinton and him.

43:43And you know what it's like. It's going into a debate with the stakes being that high and Trump hadn't agreed to another debate. The stakes were so high. So that's an example of what I mean. You took something from that. You took an underlying message about one's intentions from that, because I would. If someone called me in the lead-up to debate prep and said something like that to me, I would assume that they don't want the best for me. my takeaway is his motivation was all about himself that's what i would assume from that yeah yeah right obviously right yeah it wasn't about my performance at the debate do you think he wanted you to win the election i do because i was the only one who would be able to preserve his legacy but even that's about him well if I had to assume one of the reasons why he'd want me to win if yeah and of course you know that this all wouldn't be happening I don't think anybody who cares about the future of the country the democracy or even just protecting the constitution of the United States would have wanted this.

45:14Yeah.

45:18Just a bit of a reminder to me that a lot of people in the highest places in power are maybe a little bit self-focused. Yeah, that is the case. I think that is the case. I've seen it. I've seen it. maybe dare I say that it that's how they get there I think that may be a big part of it if they don't have something else that is the pull or the push yeah because I look at your life and your career and I see a dedication to the same thing which is like serving people and it's at the expense of financial opportunities and other opportunities you could have pursued and it seems to be really really authentic to me that your your agenda was to serve people I can't say that about everybody else that I've studied or interviewed in the political environment.

46:10And the other thing, the other thing that, so I watch all these debates. I've been, I'm such a big fan of American politics. So I was, I was up at 12 years old watching Obama get inaugurated or whatever it was. I was roughly, I was a young kid at the time. I stay up and watch all the debates I always have since I was a kid. I watched that debate. But the debate that came before with Biden and Trump, it was so apparently clear that this was not okay. And it felt like the whole of the democratic side of politics was pretending everything was okay. That's kind of my observation from the UK. I was like, why are they all pretending everything's fine?

46:43But this was clearly an individual that was very much struggling with articulation, with ideas. And in the face of someone like Trump, who, to his credit, is able to pounce on that, to be very quick. And he, interestingly enough, because of course I watched that debate very closely for many, many reasons, including I had four interviews right after his debate. Okay. To speak on behalf of the president during the debate. And what was interesting in that debate was also to watch how it's a very rare circumstance that you see Donald Trump actually moderate. It was fascinating. you must have known you must have you sat there you were in LA at the time right I was in LA at the Fairmont Hotel watching watching and taking vigorous notes I had ordered you know like they had a little crudité plate and I was like no this is a pizza night I ordered pizza for everyone I had my a number of people with me but I had a tight group of people with me in the room, he called me from debate camp.

47:58The president did, Biden did. And I could tell something was a little off. And I was concerned about, I just, I don't think he wanted to debate is my point. He didn't want that debate. And, you know, it's like any competition you go in, And whether it's your bidding for something, if it's sports, you got to want it, right? If you don't want to be in the competition, it will absolutely have an impact on your performance. And I don't think he—I'm pretty sure he did not want to debate. How do you know? What were the signs? Well, we had conversations about it. I think he got talked into it. And in any event, so I'm watching the debate with my tight team.

48:46I wanted it to be a small team so I could just be candid as it's happening because I know I have four interviews right after. And, you know, in every debate, I don't care who you are, there will be statistic wrong or, you know, you name this country, but it was that country. That always happens. There is no such thing as a perfect debate. So there will be something to clean up. Yeah. And I expected that. And then, you know, we saw what we all saw. It was a car crash. It was a historic car crash. I actually can't think of a, I'm a little bit of a historian of these debates because I think they're fascinating sort of experiments and demonstrations of human psychology and how these zingers emerge and the binders full of women thing.

49:30and, you know, the Obama thing about the Romney and Obama in that debate where they talked about the F, the military was no longer horses and bayonets. I just think it's so interesting because it's funny how a sentence or a phrase can sway the general public in such a profound way. And stick. And stick. And as a marketer, I spent 10 years in marketing, I think about this a lot, how like that horses and bayonets, the fact that I can remember that, but I can't remember anything else. Right. That's interesting. You know, the power of the word. So that, in my view. And the delivery, right? The delivery, yeah.

50:04So it's the words combined with the delivery and the timing. Yeah. And this is what you learn, right? All of that has to, that all has to coincide. So what was your strategy going into that debate with Trump? Because you had those same moments where the cats and the dogs and all that unbelievable stuff. And also you, at home, I was thinking, oh, she's trying to trigger him and it's working. Yeah, because he's so predictable that way. What were those things for you? Well, the first thing is that we had empty pads on our podium. And in the debate camp, and then therefore when I walked on stage after I shook his hand and went back to my podium, I wrote a smiley face.

50:44And because I just decided I was going to have fun. Because one of the things about these kinds of debates in particular is the person who's having fun wins. that's so true we watched it back the other day and you're smiling uh-huh and you look like you're enjoying it and he looks frustrated yeah so that was intentional was that if you look like you're having fun well have fun but though not just look because i think it's very difficult to look like you're having fun if you're not right yeah okay so you've got to find you've you have to find you have to this is a true for life you got to see the humor in it otherwise it's just going to undo you, especially if you're dealing with heavy stuff.

51:27You've got to see the humor in it. And, you know, like when he pulled out the cats and dogs thing, I couldn't even believe it. I couldn't because here's what happened. So I didn't know that he, that this was being said, right? Let's give context for anyone that doesn't know. Okay. Yes. Right. You, well. Well, so from what I understand, it's faint in my memory, but there was this like crazy rumor that I think it was illegal immigrants were eating cats and dogs. That Haitian immigrants, regardless of their legal status, in Ohio were eating their pets, cats and dogs. Yeah. So I hadn't even heard about it because I'm in debate camp, right?

52:12And then two members of my team see him get off his Trump plane with the main purveyor of this nonsense. And then they realize if she's on the plane with him, it is very possible the last thing he heard was this thing. So they last minute tell me, by the way, a lot of them call me boss because it's like this is what you do in law enforcement. and it just stuck crazy. Hey, boss, we got to tell you something. We didn't mention it to you. There's this whole thing that they're saying on that side about Haitian immigrants eating cats and dogs. And I was like, are you kidding me? That's ridiculous. No, but it's what they're saying.

52:55So just it may come up in the debate. Sure enough, it did. But see, here's the thing that I would say to you, Stephen, that again, one of the reasons I wrote the book is also there are lessons to be learned from those 107 days to be applied today. I believe that part of what is the method is say the outrageous thing, then everyone is going to focus on that outrageous thing. And meanwhile, this is happening, right? And so meanwhile— Misdirection. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And misdirection includes, by the way, talking about immigrants eating cats and dogs and not talking about what's your plan for working Americans to bring down the prices.

53:48So then the press covers that whole thing and not, oh, where was his plan for bringing down prices? here's what I've come to learn um in the last sort of 10 years working in marketing is I have this um particular chapter in my last book where I say useless absurdity defines will define you more as a brand than useful practicality and what I mean by this right that's beautifully said is when I this is the analogy I give I went to this gym in Canary Wharf and I walk in and it's got this 100 foot climbing wall it's a massive gym incredible I come home I tell my girlfriend I go babe there's this incredible gym and then the next sentence out of my mouth is the most absurd thing because I know that will be the most impactful so I say they've even got a 100 foot climbing wall because if I say that it implicitly tells them you know tells my girlfriend this gym is big and and even in my last company the thing that the press focused on in my office wasn't our work our case studies the clients we had it was that we had this massive blue slide that went into a ball pool so whenever the press came they said can you go stand by the blue slide it was all about this blue slide.

54:51The most absurd thing garners all the attention. And I actually think to Trump's strategy is he leads with, he's a master labeler, Sleepy Joe. He is very gifted. Don't discount the guy in terms of that. How do you beat someone playing that game? You have to be relentless on focusing on what's actually happening. Does that work? And it means also deconstructing so that, I mean, one of the things, for example, that I've been talking about recently is there's a word that applies so well to him in this era, which is a phrase, gaslighting, right? So there's a whole lot of gaslighting happening, which is basically misrepresenting, lying, scapegoating, distracting, right, from what's really occurring.

55:37including like this whole thing where he's coming down so hard with these mass deportations, which is picking a lot of American citizens, by the way, in the process, hardworking people in the process. And what he would have people believe is that your predicament is because this is what he actually is trying to sell. Your predicament is because of relatively powerless people so you don't focus on the powerful people. He's basically saying to the American people, you have less because of people who have even less than you. Here's the counterpoint. It works. Yes, evidently. But at some point, the veneer and the deflection has to wear off.

56:32I don't know when exactly that is going to happen. I think that, you know, listen, the tariffs taking hold, and when we get around to the holiday season and people realize how many toys are made in China, What strengthens that approach is the rapid amount of disinformation that is spreading. It's so much and it just spreads like wildfire. And trying to stay in front of that with fact, much less, to your point, practical messaging and logic, it is a real challenge. It's funny because I sit here a lot with neuroscientists and psychologists who tell me about how the brain works. And at a simple level, they talk about these two parts of the brain, which is like the rational prefrontal cortex and then the emotional center, like the limbic system, the amygdala.

57:18And they always tell me that the most memorable, the part of the brain that holds memories the easiest and the best and that garners the most attention is the emotional center of the brain, the amygdala. So if I say that these people, these brown people are coming over and they're rapists and murderers, it's much more emotionally captivating than you telling me about like statistics on how America recovered faster than any so-called wealthy country economically from the pandemic. Yeah, I'll forget that within 10 seconds of you just saying it. But the rapists and murderers thing, like my objective sense goes, well, no, come on, this is not the problem.

57:56But there's part of me that remembers that. And that's even as someone who I think is relatively informed on the reality of the situation. I still, I remember Dr. I think it was Dr. Tali Sharratt. She's a neuroscientist. So she understands that vaccines don't give kids autism. Yeah. But she recalls this time in the election many years ago. In circumcision, it doesn't mean that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. She recalls, I think it was Ben Carlson or someone talking about the science. And then the camera pans to Trump and Trump is saying, recounting a story where a child who was this big, three-year-old, beautiful child, and they came up to her with a needle this big and they gave her the vaccine and she got autism.

58:38Now, science on one hand, an emotional story on the other. I know. Tali, I think, said to me at the time, she goes, even though I know it's not true, there was part of me that was a little bit scared. I know. So my question here is how does the Democratic Party win in such a war when you're being fought with emotion and fear? How do you win with logic and rationality? I'll answer your question directly, but I want to just add to the question that I think part of the question has to be what is the responsible of media? What is the role of corporate-owned media? God bless independent media. because a lot of it is also about what set of information are people working with.

59:27You know, for example, I've talked to a number of people who voted for me, saying to them who are having debates, disagreements, you know, ending relationships with people who voted for him. And part of what I'm asking people to do is not to assume that the people with whom they disagree are working with the same set of information. Now, I didn't say facts because two plus two is four. But I think it's a big mistake for us to assume we're all working with the same information. And then when you compound that with intentional efforts to misinform and disinform and target it. I was a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee when we investigated Russia's interference in the 2016 election.

1:00:23We declassified our findings. We made them public. It included the fact that this adversarial nation included in what they targeted, they targeted black voters. with the assumption that there are certain people and demographically certain groups who are more susceptible to an argument about why they should distrust their government because they have a lived experience that tells them that. And so I would say flippantly, oh, so now all of a sudden the issue of race in America is a national security issue, so everybody needs to deal with it. We know that certain demographics are targeted with mis - and disinformation, Be they what we've seen around targeting young voters or other groups based on race or gender.

1:01:06So when we talk about the role of the Democratic Party, there is a very big role to play. And there is a role for us to require social media companies to play, media companies to play, and so on. Because information is coming from all of these places. and the challenge is as big as, are we all working with facts? We have a team at my company, Flight Story, called Flight X, and their primary responsibility is innovating across our business so that we can save time, money, be better at what we do. And one of the recent challenges I've set to the team Flight X is to find ways to save our company more time.

1:01:50And in that conversation, Fiverr Pro, who are a sponsor of this podcast, came up. Fiverr Pro, if you don't know, is like a strategic lever we pull. It's a marketplace of experts across 750 different categories, every single one of them hand-vetted for quality, and they have enterprise-grade reliability. And because I'm quite curious about what's possible with something like Fiverr Pro, we're going to go one step further. And over the next few weeks, we're running an experiment with Fiverr Pro to see just how much time we can save and how much we can unlock using their talent to accelerate our business.

1:02:21So let's see how it goes. And in the meantime, if you're looking for a player talent to give your team time back, head to fiverr.com slash diary and get 10 % off your first order when you use my code diary. A word you said that piqued my interest, which is the word independent media. Yes. I am independent media. Bless you. And I'm in a group of my peers, like the big podcasters in the world, like Joe Rogan, etc. and Alex Cooper, I know who's shown you as part of your campaign. The media landscape is changing before it arrives. Yes, rapidly. You're sat in a set now. You're the Madame Vice President.

1:03:00You're sat in, effectively, my kitchen. My old kitchen where this started, you know. And that's crazy. Like 20 years ago, the thought that you'd come to my kitchen is such a crazy thing. But it's in part now because of the democratization of these platforms and creating the content is much cheaper. And we have distribution now across these big platforms. Many would say that it changed the course of the election. Podcasting. Not just the podcast you did or didn't go on, but just the conversations that take place on these podcasts. As I have to say, as podcasters, we don't have the same rigor as traditional journalists, who I respect a lot.

1:03:34We don't have the same teams and real-time, all those kinds of things. Podcasting. There was lots of conversation around you going on Joe Rogan's show. Which I write about. What is the truth there for anyone that hasn't yet read the book? because Trump did like 100 million views on Joe Rogan's show. And in three hours sat there getting to know Trump. And for better or for worse, you probably walked away from that conversation feeling like you knew who he was. I wanted to do Joe Rogan's show. And there was a lot of games being played, but I wanted to do Joe Rogan's show. I think podcasting is a very powerful medium for people to get information.

1:04:16And to your point, a lot of people, that is a main source of information. And it's important for us to support that. Joe says you wanted him to come to you, which is very un-Joe-like in terms of he doesn't really travel. In hindsight, do you wish you'd gone and done the show for three hours at his studio, in hindsight? I mean, really, it just would be what were we giving up? I wanted to do his show, and a lot of people advised me not to do his show because they assumed, as it turned out to be correct, that he was supporting Trump and that it would not be a productive piece for me. But just like when I went on Fox News with Brett Baer, my perspective was they may have their bias, but there are people that listen who are open-minded, and I'm going to go there and give them a chance to get to know me and give me a chance to make my case to them.

1:05:12So that was my perspective on Joe Rogan, just like it was my perspective on Fox. There was a lot of games being played around the scheduling, and it didn't happen. And, you know, I don't have anything against, certainly not against the people who turn on to Joe Rogan and would love to be able to talk with them in a direct manner, as I wanted to during the campaign. Do you, in hindsight, wish you'd just put your foot down and said, I'm going to go do it? I don't know if it would have made a difference. But, yeah, no, I wanted to do it. So let me just say that, right? So I wanted to do it, and it would have been great to do, and I think it would have been helpful to do.

1:05:50Yeah, I think so. So it's just, I mean, the issue was really about what's the tradeoff in terms of votes and where I spend my time. Do I spend my time traveling for five hours and back versus being for that period of time in a swing state? And that was the tradeoff. I guess it goes to the point— So it wasn't about I don't want to do Joe Rogan. or believe me, at that point in a campaign, it's not about, oh, is somebody coming to me or me going to them? I could care less about that. Pride is not associated with it. It is more about? It is literally about return on investment. Okay, and this goes to one point about efficiency earlier.

1:06:26Yeah, exactly right. There's only one candidate. So where am I spending my time to get the greatest return on the investment? If I was in charge of your campaign, I would have 100 % put you in that environment. And even when I look at the trade-off, in part because someone like me, and I consider myself to be like genuinely really objective. And my friends know me as being not just objective on camera, but objective in my personal life. I would have, when you see a certain environment present someone in a certain way, you really like the thing that can burst that bubble is seeing that person go into that environment.

1:07:04And like when I saw you on Fox News, I watched that interview as well. I actually think it strengthens your supporters. And actually those independents who are in that space too can get a feel for you. So I would have loved to see it. And I actually think, I hope in this next election cycle, when is it, 2028? I really would love to see both sides going to both sides. And I actually think that's happening now, going into those environments. I do also tend to think that Joe would have been fair. Well, that's why I wanted to do it. I had to assume that that was possible. And either way, he's very popular.

1:07:40I would have loved to watch that interaction. I regret that we didn't do it. I definitely regret that we didn't do it. And listen, I have been doing my work long enough that for me, I've never had the luxury of saying, I don't want to go into uncomfortable situations. You would need to have a different profession. PR people can sometimes fuck things up for other people I think I think in the new world there's this new requirement to be more like a glass box and less like a black box I think in 20 years ago the whole strategy of businesses and brands and as CEOs executives was to basically be black boxes where the PR team paints the perception on the outside and in this digital world where it's like the media and platforms are distributed and all of my employees here have cameras on them at all times.

1:08:34The defense is like transparency, because I'm not going to let you craft my narrative. You're going to see it. That's why I wrote the book. Exactly. History is going to write about those 107 days. And I'm not going to let that piece of American history be written without my voice being present. Are you going to run again? Because I looked at the polls. I looked at the polls and you're leading for the Democratic side. And there isn't really a clear Democratic candidate. I interviewed Gavin Newsom as well. But when I look at the polls, you're still leading. Yeah. You don't know. I don't know, honestly.

1:09:04I feel like you know in your heart. What do I know in my heart? I feel like you know if you're going to run in your heart or if you have a calling or feeling to run. Is something germinating? No, I'm focused on the book tour sincerely. Yeah. And part of how I'm feeling right now, part of the reason I didn't run for governor of California, I really don't want to be transactional right now. You know, I don't want to be present because I'm asking for a vote. Okay, yeah. What's the case for running again and what's the case for not running again?

1:09:42I think the case for running again is if I can make a difference. Honestly, if I can make a difference. You know, if I feel that I can offer something as president of the United States. that would be not only uplifting to the American people, but would be about getting us on a correct trajectory. Do you know what my next question is going to be? What? Do you believe that you can offer something to the United States that's going to be uplifting and get us on a better trajectory? I mean, that's why I ran the last time. um so 28 is as far it's i mean it's practically tomorrow but it's it's not and we'll have to see what happens over the course of these next few months several months is there a case against running again what would that be you know it's difficult to run for president takes a toll on your family takes a real toll on your family you know anyone running for president should really take very seriously the decision because it is not for the faint of heart.

1:10:58You have to be able to take a punch and throw a punch, but you've got to be able to take a punch. A lot of punches. Yeah. There's something that comes with success, whether you're running for president of the United States, build a successful business, have a public profile, which is among the difficult aspects of it and there are so many positive aspects but among the difficult aspects is putting yourself out there in a way that you invariably will be in a position hopefully not with a lot of people but where you will be misunderstood That's an awful feeling. Yeah, it is, yeah. Oh, it's an awful feeling to be misunderstood.

1:11:51In this environment in particular, invariably you will put yourself in a position where some people will hate you. It's awful. They don't know you, but they'll hate you. And so to do anything that is about distinguishing yourself by virtue of the thing you can offer or a differentiation from yourself and others of, you know, in a similar category, it exposes you to a lot. And so you have to know why you're doing it. and I believe that you have to do it for something that is bigger than yourself not about your own power not about your ego not about your entitlement it has to be because to endure the the the this not just the process of getting into the job but the job itself you got to be clear about why you're there on that night when you the results come in and you realize that the election hasn't gone your way and that trump is going to be elected what would i have seen if i was a fly on the wall in the room i was in a state of shock really did you think the day before that you were going to win yeah and so when did the proverbial penny drop when i I got a call from my campaign manager that it looks like we need 200 ,000 more votes that we can't find.

1:13:32Meaning it's just the map, the numbers. And the thing I kept saying over and over again, I was in a state of shock. I was so inarticulate, but maybe very articulate. But what I kept saying over and over again is, my God, my God, my God. Really? Over and over. I couldn't stop. I haven't felt that emotion, anything similar to the emotion I felt that day and for quite some time, other than the grief I felt when my mother died. I knew what was going to happen to our country. I knew the harm that was going to happen to people. And I knew it. I knew what was going to happen. You know, it's not about winning versus losing.

1:14:37It was never, it was, I knew the consequence of the outcome of that election. And that pained me so. I can still see the pain in your face. Oh, it's awful. It's awful. You look at what's happening. It's, I mean, it's awful. Right now, the man is building a ballroom for a bunch of his rich friends while millions and millions of people are about to lose their health coverage in terms of being able to afford premiums for their health care. You look at the weaponization of the Department of Justice against political enemies, how titans of industry are so afraid that the capitulation that we're seeing across the board, whether it be universities, law firms, media companies, what's happening around gutting the Department of Education, lunch programs for low-income children, IEPs, individual education for special needs kids.

1:15:57Recently I'm hearing the stories from mothers in particular whose children have special needs and they can't get an IEP. These are babies, the children who are most in need. They're parents who are struggling. If you know a parent who has a special needs child, what that means to their life emotionally, physically, financially, and we're not even giving them assistance with their educational program for their children. Meanwhile, you're building a gilded ballroom. so the harm it's extraordinary all those working people the tariffs what this is meaning for people he made a promise that on day one he was going to bring down prices and prices are higher for groceries inflation is higher unemployment is higher and by the way Stephen it must be said the failure of the Democratic Party will be going forward to overlook the fact that it is bigger than this one guy.

1:17:05It is not just about this one person who occupies the Oval Office. We are witnessing what is the swift implementation, a high-velocity event that is the swift implementation of a plan that has been decades in the making. The strategy for dealing with this moment has to include having some historical perspective on how we got here. That Project 2025 didn't just fall out of the sky. The idea of going after public education, that's not new. The Federalist Society, the Heritage Foundation, the gerrymandering of districts, the packing the court, this stuff, this is about an agenda that is not going to begin and end with one person.

1:17:53And the destruction is profound. There are, however, a small group of people who have access to the power and are close to the power who are doing quite well. The rest, look what's going to happen in terms of working people. Does the, again, as an objective observer, the Democratic Party needs to take responsibility for, you know, because the US operates as a sort of two party system, where it's kind of like this person versus this person, left versus right. The left lost. They played it wrong. From the Democratic's perspective, they're paying the price of losing the game of chess. And so I think about the Democratic Party and they can point at the consequences of losing that game.

1:18:42But I feel like the Democratic Party needs to get their shit together so that they don't lose the game again. I agree. And that's the personal responsibility point, which is like, how do you stop yourself from finding yourself in a situation where at the last minute, Joe Biden is pulled out with 100 days to go and no one mentioned it? I mean, you say in the book that you at the time thought of it as grace. You talk about this on page 46. You say you thought it was grace to not basically mention that there was a problem and grace not to tell Joe Biden to pull out earlier. But actually, in hindsight, you now think it was probably reckless not to tell him to pull out.

1:19:15On my part, yeah. So what is that to you? What does the Democratic Party need to do? First of all, you know, if I had if I had done it over. Again, part of the reflection. you know we had the infrastructure deal we had the chips act so we're building back up america's infrastructure it's 150 years old chips is about manufacturing chips um u.s manufacturing both incredibly important if i had to do it over again i would have first gone with our family policy that was about extension of the child tax credit affordable child care paid family leave. We needed to deal with the immediate issues affecting the American people.

1:20:06In fact, that's why I ran for the 107 days on those issues, including having Medicare cover, for example, for people in the sandwich generation who are taking care of young children and older parents, Medicare cover home health care, right? Why I offered for small businesses that they would get a$50 ,000 tax credit for startup small businesses, because nobody can start up a small business on a$5 ,000 tax credit, right? Do you think the left is somewhat seen as the enemy of entrepreneurship? I think there is that perception. I don't know if that is the case in reality, but I think we have some work to do.

1:20:43Yeah. I mean, I talk about in the book, for example, I think it was a mistake to not invite Elon Musk when we had, and I'm no fan of his, but I admire his work as an innovator and as, you know, what he has done in terms of American manufacturing of electric vehicles. We should have had him at the White House when we had all the other electric vehicle, American electric vehicle manufacturers, right? I think this is part of the problem. When I read that, I was really happy to read that, Because you can disagree with someone in part, but still have the nuance to be able to acknowledge this part's good.

1:21:21But if you just shut them out because of one thing, then you really drive division. I mean, this gets back to my earlier point about what's the motivation for the decisions that a leader makes. And the motivation has to be what is for the greater good. and have the ability to put aside, you know, those things that may fall in the context of being more personal. I think we have to do a better job of also focusing on being a bit more bold. For example, I think we should reduce voting age to 16. I'll tell you why. Okay. So Gen Z, they're age about 13 through 27. They've only known the climate crisis.

1:22:13They missed substantial parts of their education because of the pandemic. If they're in high school or college, especially in college, it is very likely that whatever they've chosen as their major for study may not result in an affordable wage. they've coined the term climate anxiety to describe fear of not only being able to buy a home but that fear it'll be wiped out by extreme weather but fear of having children it is expected that Gen Z will have 10 to 12 jobs in their lifetime they are a larger number than boomers there's a specific generation of people who are going to impact our nation and the world And I think we must invest in them, but I think that they are rightly impatient with a lot of what is the tradition of leadership right now.

1:23:09And if they were able to vote because they know everything that's happening right now is going to impact them more than anybody older than them for the most part in terms of how these systems work. If they're voting right now at 16 and up, they're going to be talking about the importance of climate. They're going to be talking about the importance of figuring out how AI is going to affect the future of the workforce. They're going to be focused on what are we really doing about affordable housing. And basically in politics, here's the hard truth about this. There are two centers of power that tend to influence how politicians think.

1:23:50Groups that vote the most and people who write the most checks. and I'm going to go every day with the people, the people, and thinking about how do we strengthen people actually going to the polls and voting. Back to my point, in 2024, one-third of the electorate didn't vote. Let's focus on why. And are we talking with them? Are we offering them bold solutions? Are we bringing ideas forward that are speaking to their immediate needs? Are we doing it in an effective way? Back to your point about podcasts and other mediums. If you run again, do you think you'll go into those more right-leaning environments, media environments?

1:24:35Would you go on, you know, I'm not saying Joe's right wing, but would you go on Joe's show? Certainly. I would go on Joe's show if I'm not running. I have a lot to say. Do you know when you'll make a decision? Like, what's the time frame for someone? I don't know. I mean, I don't know. I obviously at some point will need to make the decision. I haven't thought about the timeline probably in the next year. I mean, it's, what is it, November of 28. Primaries would be in June. And since that day when Trump won the election and you were sat there saying, oh God, oh God, under your breath, how has the balance of that decision shifted over time?

1:25:11Has the conviction grown from that moment? If I'd asked you in that moment when you were saying, oh God, oh God, under your breath, would you have said never again? And today, are you more on the side of potentially? That's a great question. I think, well, I could start with this. I think my family would have said never again. I think that as time has gone by, and people have had a chance, including myself, to kind of sit with it, reflect on it. Writing the book was very cathartic. Being away from it in terms of space and time. it has a way of mitigating the pain of what that process was just like grief yeah use the word grief to describe that feeling so you get to acceptance at some point and yeah that's a really good point yeah you're right that's right and you get to process it in a way that also is about what's my role to play and what could I have done differently as a way to help guide future decisions, whatever that be.

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1:28:02Wow, Steve, you still look great. Yes, and Bond Charge ships worldwide with easy returns and a year-long warranty on all of their products. So visit bondcharge.com slash diary for 25 % off on any product site-wide. But you have to order through that link. That's bondcharge.com slash diary with code diary. You talked about being bold. Is that also in communication? Because as I've seen you on this book tour, it seems your communication has become increasingly more bold. I've seen you get up a couple of times and start shouting a little bit at certain things that pissed you off and being a bit more unfiltered.

1:28:38And I think, funnily, I think polish is actually detrimental. That's what I love about podcasting. It's so unpolished. Like I sit here in my fucking socks and it can, it just, there's no, your team didn't. No pretense. There's no pretense. There's nothing you said I couldn't ask you at all. Right. I was wondering if that's, you've noticed that in yourself and if that's, you think that's important.

1:29:01right like am i just like fuck it yeah exactly don't ask the question with pretense yeah exactly is it that's exactly what i mean are you just like fuck it now it doesn't matter because the book had fucking energy yeah i think there is that energy in the book but just like here but here's part of it that i um in writing it and now. This is how I feel about it. In so many ways, I've been in the belly of the beast.

1:29:38And I feel that the consequence of an election for president of the United States impacts billions of people around the world. And yet the process can be so opaque. And what I also hope to do with the book is just lift up the hood on it so people can see how it runs. And in a way that if it's for a journalist, if it's for a high school student, if it's for someone's grandmother to confirm or enlighten around what people think it is in a way that they can see themselves in their own power, you know? And that does require demystifying it. And I guess part of demystifying is, yeah, like, I'm not going to hold on to, oh, this kind of thing should not be talked about.

1:30:36Do you regret running without only 107 days notice? Do you wish you hadn't ran? No, I don't regret running. I wish we had more time. I truly wish we had more time. I truly wish we had more time. I don't regret running. Had you known the outcome, would you have still ran? Probably because, you know, one of the things that happened, and to this day, men and women, girls and boys come up to me and say there was something about that campaign that excited something in them. I can't tell you the number of people who have come up to me and said, I decided to run for office because you ran. The number of people who have come up to me and said, I decided to go to law school because you inspired me.

1:31:26The number of people who have told me about their young children who, you know, saw something and got excited about it and wanted to be a part of it. I don't regret any of that. I absolutely believe that we turned something on. In fact, I'm going to say this differently because it's not like people didn't have it in them. They had it in them. But there was something that those 107 days did to welcome, to invite, to grow the optimism and, dare I say, the joy that people do carry with them. And what I hope to do with my voice right now is to remind everyone, please don't let your spirit be defeated.

1:32:12We may not have won the election, but our spirit can't be defeated because then they really win. And sometimes the fight takes a while, right? So I don't regret having run in spite of the outcome. But I do regret that we did not have more time. I mean, you've got more time now. Yeah, time to do a podcast. Time to run for president as well, potentially. I've got two pictures here, which I thought are beautifully sweet. I'll show you both of them. But these two pictures here. Oh, my Dougie. Yeah. How, you know, if I was in a situation where the election results had come in and I had that call from my team saying that there's 200 ,000 votes we can't find, I think I'd probably be turning to my partner in those moments.

1:33:07Oh, I definitely did. Talk to me about that. What role did he do? I mean, he is, it sounds so corny, but he truly is my rock. He is, my husband is just fully self-actualized. He's not pretending to be anything. He's not. He is a strong man who cares about his family, cares about hard work. He is loyal. He has a sense of humor. He's very encouraging. He's very honest. And, you know, I want that for anyone and everyone. I know you talk with a lot of people about advice, about career and all of that. For any of us, what I want for anyone who has ambition for success, have in your life, and it doesn't have to be a lot of people, but that circle of people who have some understanding of what you're going through and are there when you want to laugh at the thing you're not supposed to laugh about.

1:34:12You want to use the words you don't use wherever you pray. The people who, you know, I talk about, you know, if you slip and fall, they'll laugh at you and then pick you up and push you back out there. None of us has achieved success without those people in our lives. And it might be your spouse. It might be your partner. It might be a family member. It could be anybody. But be intentional. about having those people in your life because, look, this is life. They're, you know, so cliche. They're going to be the ups. They're going to be the downs. It's the beauty of living that, you know, it involves the whole spectrum.

1:34:57But when you have people that can be with you on your journey, it just makes it better. Do you remember what he said to you that night?

1:35:09well he was in as much of a state of shock as i was we didn't i have to admit we were not very articulate that night how long did that last well not until i started writing the book and getting to the chapter on election night do you know that was the first time doug and i talked about election night. Really? How many weeks, months was that? Months. We had never talked about election night. Never, never talked about election night. It was when I was writing the book. That's when he told me something I had no idea, which is he and my brother-in-law had been campaigning on election day in Michigan.

1:35:54All felt good. I remember talking to him and he said, it feels good out here. Everybody's saying it feels good. Then on their way back to D.C., they got a call from a friend of ours who was a Democrat, but who was a pundit on Fox News. And he was in their boiler room, their war room. And he calls Doug and my brother-in-law, Tony, to say, what are you guys hearing? Because what I'm hearing concerns me. I didn't know that happened. All I knew was Doug went campaigning with Tony. I was campaigning Everybody was campaigning. I had a house full of family. When he came back to the house, I knew something was like a little off in retrospect.

1:36:38What I didn't know is he had that information. And he had gone up the stairs to take a shower and pray. And I didn't know until we talked about that chapter, because we talked about that night. and then I was talking to him about we always do friends and family dinner and I said, Doug, remember the tables and do you remember who was sitting at our table? And he said, I said, remember when I gave the toast? He said, you didn't give the toast. You didn't give a toast. I said, I did. He said, no, you're thinking about one of the other events because we used to do dinners in that room. No, it was our friends and family dinner.

1:37:17I gave a toast. So I looked for the photographs of that night and I found one and there I am standing giving a toast. Doug was so, in his head at that point, worried about what he heard from our friend about what Fox News was reporting in their boiler room. He didn't really experience any of that. You know, have you ever had those? Frozen over, yeah. But you've just like something is so weighing on that you're not experiencing anything because that's all you're thinking. But he didn't want to tell me that night. Could you tell? He prayed it was going to be different. In hindsight, could you tell that something was off with him?

1:37:54In hindsight, I could tell. And I, and yeah, and we never, you know, because we had to function. We had a house full of people, family. The next day, because we were going to go to Howard University's campus, my alma mater, to give a victory speech the night of the election. told everybody to come back the next day. And so then I had to get ready to go and give a speech, which was a concession speech. And actually to the point of, you know, I had to reconcile. I would close every rally by saying when we fight, we win. And it was not as simplistic as, well, you win some, you lose some. And I was trying to figure out how do I, especially for all those young people, how do I help them reconcile that?

1:38:51And on the way to giving the speech, I wrote into the speech, well, sometimes the fight takes a while. But when I got—so when we got to the—when we got to Howard, we were in the, you know, green room, and our family was there. So this is how awful I am. I'm looking. Everybody's crying. And I just looked at them and said, we are not having a pity party. We are not having a pity party. And I was just on function. You know, and then it was, and then it was, you know, I had the, we ended up, we had a trip planned to Hawaii for vacation from many, many months ago. And there was an emergency happening in the world.

1:39:41And so I couldn't go. And we couldn't go. And we forgot that we actually, because we had paid to rent this house. And my team, being so great, they're like, why don't we see if we can get you to go to that house now? And as I reflected on it, it was literally, it wasn't a vacation. It was like the oxygen mask just dropped and we put it on and went to Hawaii. And some friends of ours met us there. And we were like zombies, you know, for a while. It was a very difficult thing to process that quickly. Is that depression? um probably i mean it's it's a it's there is the thing about one um about you know going going going going going and then all of a sudden so there is that which is just your body is physically used to this thing that all of a sudden stops and i've had that happen every time i've run and win even right they call it gold medal depression yeah right right even when you win the gold medal people get depressed because yeah because you because you've been you've been functioning the whole time in a very competitive nature and it's fight or flight and it's adrenaline adrenaline and surging surging surging and then there is the piece that is about i mean it it lasted for days which is almost that you know they talk about when people lose a limb, there's the, like the ghost or the phantom.

1:41:18Phantom limb, yeah. Right, the phantom limb. And I had a hard time reconciling we can't still do something about it. I had a, just, I knew. It's just like I knew I was going through the stages of grief. I knew, you know, so that's good to be able to put a label on something, but it doesn't mean that you don't otherwise experience it. You weren't helpless at that point yet. I was just like, there must be something I can do. Do you reflect on, I know your mother passed away when you were in your early 40s. I think she was 70 years old, roughly, and she was colon cancer. She was just two. Her birthday was December 7th.

1:41:57She died February 11th. She was just two months into being 70. Is her spirit and her presence still with you in these moments? Do you reflect on what she'd be thinking of all this? Very much. very much all the time

1:42:16she I mean I can't if my you know it's funny I've talked to a couple people who have lost their parents who were who've lost them recently but whose parents had a similar nature to my mother and one of them said to me most recently she said I'm so glad my father is not alive to see this because it would kill him. I was just talking to somebody recently who just said that. Oh, my mother would be, you know, it would be a great distraction for me if my mother were alive right now because I'd have to spend full time talking her down.

1:42:58Oh, you know what? I talked about that safe space. So early on when I was running for TA, this is when I realized I need to have, like, that core group of, like, that safe space. And I thought my mother would be a perfect person to be in it. And I realized that was a huge mistake on my part because my mother wanted to kill everybody. And then I'd have to spend full time talking her down instead of dealing with how I needed to address a situation. So that's my mother's nature. We used to call her mommy. That's mommy's nature. But she'd be so proud. Oh, she would be proud. She'd be very proud. She, oh, my God.

1:43:43So she passed just before my election as attorney general. And I took care of her when she was sick. And we were, this is one of those days and there were weeks where she needed to be in the hospital. And so she was, I was with her in the hospital. She's in the bed. And I was in the chair sitting next to her. And so, like, I'm here and she's here. And she was just kind of resting. And she said to me, how's the campaign going? And she's, and I'm sitting here. I said, well, Mommy, and this is truth. I said, well, Mommy, they said they're going to kick my ass. My mother turned over and looked at me.

1:44:30And smiled.

1:44:35Swear to God. She didn't say anything. She smiled. Like, yeah, let them try. Uh-huh. That was my mother. Yeah. You miss her? Oh, all the time. Yeah. All the time. But, you know, it's, um, here's the thing about life. one of the things that I've learned. You know, it's just like having the things that can be, it's the duality. The things that can be a great blessing and have a huge impact, when it's not there, it feels like a huge loss. It's like you asked earlier, would you have done it differently then? Would we ever say, because we've experienced the loss of someone we love that we would not have loved?

1:45:33Never. Right? Never. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you. I'm not going to, we do have a closing tradition, but I think we're out of time. I'm going to ask you anyway, fuck it. Okay, Tom. The closing tradition is the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're leaving it for. Okay. The question left for you is, if there was a moment in the last 10 years you would do differently, what would it be and why?

1:46:01oh i mean this is quite

1:46:06read my book okay we'll leave it at that read the book 107 days um kamala harris it's an incredible book because it's so unbelievably honest and it's so unbelievably human and it lets you see behind a curtain one does not usually get to see behind which is extremely extremely rare but extremely illuminating and valuable um your career is one that has inspired me tremendously because you've broken down walls, broken through ceilings, and continue to do that. And if anyone takes the time to read your book or look through the story of your life, it is irrefutable that your agenda is to serve people.

1:46:37Thank you so much for giving me your time today. Thank you. I'm very, very touched by that. Thank you. Thank you.

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