Macklemore: How I Destroyed My Addiction & Overcame My Darkest Times

29:48It's like, you can't even just enjoy it. And I sat in the car and I listened to it all the way through. And it's the best feeling to be like, you know what? I worked really hard on something. And in all of these little moments, all of these mistakes, all of this pain eventually finds its way into purpose. And I think that that's an artist's highest form is to be able to take pain and repurpose it into purpose. What is giving you that? Or you describe that moment in the studio where you're clear and you're almost channeling something, you're higher creativity, whatever that is. Have you been able to figure out what it is that causes those moments of clarity and focus and stability?

30:42And then on the other side of the coin, what causes the chaos in our lives, the instability? Is there any causal factors? Yes. For me, it is exercise, getting outside. It's like actually cardio. It is being of service to other people. It is a spiritual practice. It is coming from faith rather than fear. It is thinking about ourselves less and others more. It is being still in the studio not thinking about what is this going to do for the world, but just actually being present. And removing the ego, which is what all of those things help facilitate. Right? Like when we, when we're of service, when we work out, when we show up, when we're at peace, when we think about ourselves less, we're removing the ego.

31:41I'm stripping it away. It's a process of excavation. And the opposite is when I'm thinking about, okay, what if this song doesn't work at radio? What if this, you know, what if TikTok doesn't, you know, do the challenge? What if, you know, whatever it is, when I'm future surfing, thinking about the outcome rather than enjoying the process. The process is where the magic happens. The rest of it, I've never, for all of the records that I've ever put out, there has never been a moment of any calculation that has worked. It doesn't work. The records that I've been like, oh yeah, this is going to be the one.

32:22Those are the ones with like two million views on YouTube. And the ones that I'm like, you know, who knows, those are the ones with, you know, that really affected culture, that really like got out there. And, you know, the world knows these songs 10, 11 years later or five years later or whatever it is. I think the intention in the studio is so important because even if, you know, even if I put out a new album that doesn't stream as well as the last one or whatever it is, that's not my metric. If I am basing my identity around those numbers and those metrics, I will always be disappointed. My bucket will always be half full.

33:08And, if I'm basing it on what was the intention? What am I actually trying to get at? The music is going to hit who it hits. It was already written. And I just have to get out of the way when I try to control, hang on when I try to play puppet master. That's when I become miserable. And I'm not effective at my job. So two questions here, then on that basis. You know, I'm sure people ask you what your favorite record is or whatever. I'm not really interested in that. I don't like choosing your favorite children or whatever. And they're all different for various reasons. But in terms of the most important record you think you've ever recorded.

33:47The one that you believe has benefited others, the world, the most irrespective of performance metrics. What is that record? And why? It's two records. It's same love and other side. And I think same love is the obvious answer. Because it came out at a time where we, as I'll speak for America, but kind of, you know, even more. It came out at a time in America where we were having this conversation around legalizing gay marriage. Where there was a shift. There's a cultural shift. And that song became something bigger than me. It became a moment for a movement towards equality. And as a songwriter, as an artist, as someone that, you know, prides himself on the pen.

34:55And the ways that it can move spirit, that's the, that's up there. That has to be one or number two. The other one is other side. And other side is a record that not as many people know. But it is one that was kind of the first, you know, it was the first record I wrote when I got out of the treatment. And it was that I am literally not even here right now. I'm just trying to be silent enough in my own head to just let this magic happen. But it talked about the disease of addiction for the first time. And I kind of was like, yeah, I just need to get this out. I don't know. I am an addict and I don't want to like hide this shit.

35:40And I know it's not cool. I know it's not going to sell more records. I know it's not what anyone, anyone else is talking about. I know it's not what my favorite rappers are talking about. But I am an addict and I have to be sober.

35:56And I need to let whoever was listening me at the time, the 2000 fans that I had, I needed to let them know that this is who I was. And you know, it said that we're only as sick as our secrets. I didn't want to be sick anymore. I just wanted to tell my truth. And that was the record to do it. And what I watched happen after that, I'll never forget people coming to the shows, you know, six people, 12 people, 14 people in recovery coming because they heard other side. And it changed their life. And I know what that feels like as someone on the other end of it, whose life has changed so many times by the music that I was listening to.

36:51And yeah, it's those two. Those are the ones. I listened to drug dealer earlier. And I listened to it, but then I looked at the comments section. And it is like, it's profound. It's profound that the second comment on that video is from a recovering herin addict who's crying while they're watching that video because it's making them feel heard, seen and understood in a really profound way. And every comment was like that. Every comment was speaking to like deliberating and therapeutic impact that song was having on it, you know, thousands and thousands of people. It's a really profound thing. It's almost, you know, it's a lot, isn't it?

37:36It in terms of, you know, you talked about these people coming to a show this seven, the 10, the 12. Has that ever felt like, and this is a strange word to use, but does it, has that ever felt like an emotional weight at all? Because you're hearing these stories, I sat with Jordan Peterson in fact, and he talked about how people coming up to him and telling them about their own journey, and it's their own emotional path to recovery or healing can sometimes feel like, like an emotional weight. It's a lot to carry. I feel the opposite. I feel, I feel connection. It connects me to the art, because I'm not in the same place that I was in 2009 when I wrote that song.

38:18My life looks very different. I think when I hear people say that they were moved or they were transformed or that they felt some inspiration or, you know, whatever it is. For one, it's an opportunity, and I think that maybe this is where Jordan and I differ is that, I'm an addict. This person coming up to me is an addict, and there's an immediate connection there that I can't describe. I don't know what it is, but it's just like, oh, you got the same, oh my God, we had the same thing. How are you doing with your journey? How are you doing with yours? And it's not a weight. It's more like, oh, thank you for, you know, the meat and greets of, thank you so much, appreciate it, thank you so much.

39:04Like that's a weight. That's just going through the motions, the actual moments of people telling me those things when I'm like, okay, let's pause. Like we don't need to get through the line so fast. Let's, you know, we'll get to the hotel and we'll get to the hotel. Let me be present with this person, because this conversation is changing my life. I'm reminded why I wrote that record in the first place. I'm reminded of the beauty that happens when we share honestly. Like those are those moments where I'm like, thank you. That's where I feel like I am the recipient of the recipient of a gift that's coming full circle, because they're reminding me of how important it is to share honestly, regardless of how it looks, regardless of how it's perceived.

39:52And I think that so much of the time there's this, you know, if I tell my truth, will I be an outcast, will I be accepted, will I be kicked out of the tribe, will I still be a part of, we want to be a part of. And there's this thing that happens, like what happened with your friend when you saw him finally, when you saw him not as the alcoholic that was fucking shit up in the house or messing up your life, or like why doesn't he just stop it, you saw him in his raw state. That's raw humanity right there. And when we demonstrate that, when we can show others that we can be raw, it just inspires.

40:40Because other people are like, oh, I can tell my truth to you and I'm not going to get kicked out. Wow, let me show up as my authentic self. Q1 is often when businesses start implementing new systems and processes in hopes of creating efficiencies for the year ahead. And over the course of my career, I've learnt just how crucial having the right systems in places, one which has helped me across many of my investments is NetSuite. They're also a sponsor of this podcast. NetSuite is the number one cloud financial system through their streamlined platform. You'll find all of your accounting financial management inventory and HR in one place.

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41:52I heard that you're not the biggest fan of social media. Well, I heard my feelings because I try pretty hard. I know I was kidding. Yeah, that's good. Like you do. You're not out there making it, you're not out there every day talking about your life and showing behind the scenes. Yeah, social media for me is part of my job. Sometimes I'm great at it. I mean, I'm just this guy. I'm like, okay, what are we doing on social media now? And then it's like, zoop outside of work. Outside of work. No, I mean, I want to be present. I want to be like, you know, it's like my kids show up today and you know, my videographer is like, yo, if you can get a little bit of iPhone footage with the kids like walking around like that'd be awesome.

42:40And I'm like, you know, asking my wife five minutes in Norwalk like, hey, do you mind getting some footage of us walking? And I was like, never mind, never mind, never mind. It doesn't matter. Like, it doesn't matter. What matters is that I'm with my kids and then I'm being present and then I'm happy. And I'm off my phone because I've experienced both ways and it's a balance, right? Like, there are times where I need to be on my phone and I need to be on social media and I need to be handling whatever needs to get handled. But, I think it's about the relationship that an individual has with social media.

43:17And again, it comes back to intention. Is the intention for the most likes, for the most engagement, for the most file. Like, if that's what it is, then there's always going to be a void there that's looking to be filled. And it can be really toxic and I was talking to, you know, a couple, a couple guys on tour with us. And I, you know, 20 -year -old, 21, and just talking, you know, they're just constantly analyzing TikTok and trying to figure out why did this post perform and this one didn't? And maybe it's because we're over in Europe and the geo -targeting and all of this. And I'm like, you guys are 20.

43:55Like, you're on tour in Europe. Like, go out and have fun. Explore, like, live outside of TikTok. And when this is all that they've known and that this, in that this platform is the reason why I know he exists and why his songs have gotten out there, it can be really challenging and I feel for the younger generation. And I feel for the older generation that's like, yo, the label's telling me that I have to do this and I really don't want to be here at all. But here I am post. There's a spiritual sickness that can be easily insidiously infiltrate our psyche if we're just here nonstop. And I just don't want to be.

44:46On that point of, you know, those 20 -year -olds that are with you and you're giving them that advice. If you could, you know, you've had this immense career and you know, a lot of people have great careers, but yours has had so many twists and turns and twists and turns that the wisdom you've gained from every twist and turn. I believe is pretty profound. That's why I really love your conversation with Jay. If you were to go back and be able to have a conversation now with that young, bent at 14 years old. Let's say right before that first drink. What advice would you impart on him?

45:21About life.

45:25It's tough to say and it's, you picked an interesting time period because you picked before. And I don't think that I would have...

45:38I don't think that I would have warned that 14 -year -old. Maybe I would have. I think that... But I don't think it would have done anything. You know what I mean? Maybe that conversation would have looked like... Bro, you're an addict. You're never going to be able to shut this off. It's going to cause way more pain than good. But at the same time, I can't discredit the experiences that I've had that have led me to this table right here in this moment. And if it wasn't for those mistakes, you know, I have a different story. I have a different arsenal to pick from in terms of what moves me creatively.

46:20And again, repurposing that pain. But a lot of that pain has hurt others. It has hurt close family members or my wife or best friends. And those moments are hard to deal with. I think if I could tell my 14 -year -old self anything, it'd be like, Bro, you're going to do what you're going to do. Enjoy it. Find gratitude. A spiritual practice. Get outside of your own head. Get into the act of loving and being there for others. And just don't stop. I think that when I have stopped in my life and I have let up on on the gas, not just like not stop in terms of the work ethic, but stop the spiritual practice.

47:14That's the thing that's always brought me back. It's not the work. It's not the amount of engagement. It's not the algorithm. It's not the YouTube streams. It's none of that. What actually makes you happy and fulfilled, find that thing and push into it as hard as you can. That's where the magic lives. Use the term spiritual practice to describe what that is. In detail, what would you mean by spiritual practice for you? Well, it's looked like many different things throughout my time here. In moments, it's been a meditation practice. In moments, it's been a yoga practice. In moments, it's been many 12 step meetings throughout the week or stepwork or working with others.

48:04But I think it's the art of just getting outside of oneself and getting grounded in the moment and serving others. That has been my consistent point of reference. When you feel spiritually sick, reach out to someone else. Whether it's picking up the phone or calling that person that you've been avoiding or whatever, just get outside of your own self. Do the thing that makes you uncomfortable. Push into that because that's when life all of a sudden becomes vibrant. Colors come back. It becomes alive. I'm like, oh, yes. I turn this off. I stop thinking about me and what I wanted in the moment and I just showed up for someone else.

48:50And I found that connection. I found God in those moments. I found that little piece that reminded me of who I am just by showing up for another. Second to go, you talked about when you're talking about other people, you said that one of the hardest things is knowing that you'd go into heart of the people. Who did you have? I've heard my parents, I've heard my wife probably the most. I think anyone that I was being dishonest to, you know, there's this double, it's almost this double life that needs to be lived. And you know, when I go off and I'd relapse and I'd lie about it, I wouldn't relapsing is, you know, for me, it's always been a sneaky thing.

49:45It's not like I'm like all of a sudden like, hey guys, just so everyone knows, I'm high again. No, this is like quiet hush. I'm trying not to get caught. And in those seasons, protecting that and people are probably like, yo, what's going on with them? Like, you know, and I'm lying about that. And it's just a really toxic spot. You know, I'm gaslighting my wife and, you know, making her feel crazy. I think that that's probably if she was here, ask what's the hardest part of being, you know, in a partnership with an addict. It's like, those moments where you made me feel crazy. It's not that I went back to the drugs necessarily.

50:32It's that I made her feel like she was, she was crazy and that she was off because she was even questioning me. And again, turning into someone that I'm like, that's the worst version of myself. That's the shittiest version of myself. That's something that in my heart, I know to be not the way that I want to treat anybody much less my significant other or my best friends or my team. But here I am again, putting everything to the wayside just so I can continue to use. And it's a pretty dark place. Was there a point where you thought you might lose time? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, relapse in COVID, you know, the beginning of COVID.

51:22And definitely was, you know, she kicked me out of the house. And I went to stay in my parents condo. And I remember just driving around aimlessly. Like, I'm going to lose my kids. I'm going to lose this marriage. And I think the thing that, I think that's the thing that scares me the most is, you know, I'm being honest is not being in my kids' lives. And the devastation that that would potentially, and that impact that it would a divorce would have on them. And the other flip side of it is, I believe the kids are resilient. And that, that pain can be repurposed. And that, you know, half of the world is divorced.

52:27And, you know, beauty can come out of it and does all the time. And people end up in much better situations out of divorce. So I'm not against divorce. But for me and my, and my kids, that was the thing that I was holding on to. It was just this like, I want our family to stay together. And the fact that I can, it would be because of me. It would be because of my self centered instant gratification, need to escape not actually working my 12 step program. Ask like that would, I would be the reason that this family broke up. And I would have to, to hold that and that weight, the idea of that weight still seems too much to live with.

53:18I know I could do it, but in that moment of that, that last relapse, I was definitely a... Yeah, it was, it was a real scare into, um, look what you're about to lose for what? For this? This doesn't even make you happy. This stopped working right away. It never worked. It never worked for you. It never worked. It never worked in the long run. Even if you had a good night or two in the big picture, um, you have an allergy. And that allergy is trying to kill you every time you pick it up.

54:06I've read, um, about a story when you were in a, I think you were in a hotel room or something and your wife had taken a pregnancy test. And you were, you're just relapsed and she was in the toilet. And you heard her crying through the door. Yeah. And you knew that, you knew that those weren't happy tears. Yeah. Because she was pregnant. Yeah. Can you take me back to that moment and just tell me exactly what happened. You were in, it was at her hotel. I was at our house. You were at our house, okay. Yeah, we were in our home and, um, Yeah, it's, it's, it's kind of a, I mean, it's the truth, but it's, um, Yeah, I'll just say it.

54:52I mean, I'm there. I'm high. She doesn't know it, but she knows it. But, you know, she hasn't caught me yet. And I just keep denying it. And, um, you know, her period was late. Went and got her the pregnancy test and I'm just like, begging to a god that I had no connection with. Please, please let this be a negative pregnancy test. I'm not ready yet. I'm not ready to be a dad. I'm not ready to give up the drugs.

55:29And I remember just like on the carpet, literally like praying. And then I heard the tears. And I knew what that meant. That she was pregnant. And I knew that that meant that I needed to get clean.

55:53And it was that moment of like, that pull. And I think that that's the hardest part. I haven't really spoke about this. I think that's the hardest part about the disease of addiction is this pull. Is the compulsion and the obsession for more, yet knowing that more is the thing that is leading to depression, the rock bottom, the not wanting to be here anymore. But it's this just that at odds. And I felt that inner turmoil of just I'm not ready to be a dad because I still want to get high. And I know I need to stop it. I am just not ready yet. And sure enough, she was pregnant. And I got clean.

56:55And she was pregnant with our first daughter Sloan. So, you know, I think my reservation is just like Sloan watching this some day. I'm like, oh, it's high. So dad was super high on the carpet and didn't really want me. That's not true at all either. I mean, I was high and at the time I didn't want her. But when I got clean, it was like, okay, let's have this baby. Like I want to be a dad. I want to be a dad who my kids never see loaded. That they don't even know that part of me. That they don't have to be like, oh, dad's, dad's high again or dad's hiding. Your mom kicked dad out of the house.

57:34That they don't even know that part of my, my story. That's what I wanted. Well, have you come to learn about the journey of life? And as it relates to like, I said a second ago that the ups and the downs and the ups and the downs, but you persevere. And that's really all the choice we have is to persevere and to find something meaningful to aim at today. And then we'll get another chance again to worry. And we kind of like, right off yesterday in the day before, because that's out of our control now. And it's about what can I aim at today? As you sit here today, what are you aiming at? Like, the past is the past.

58:12Like, we can't go back and change things. It is what it is. It's, I think it's important to be aware of it and to admit it to ourselves, to at least to learn some wisdom from it. But as you sit here today, you're, you know, as you woke up this morning, this is today is in play. Yeah. What are you aiming at today? And as we look off into the next sort of two decades of your life, what? I maybe to a fault don't think about the future. What I'm thinking about is here. And then I'm like, okay, well, let's zoom out from here. I have a show tonight. I want to put on a great show. We're in London. It's like 6 ,000 people.

58:50So I want to put on a great show. What is it going to take for me to put on a great show tonight? My family's in town in London. Like, I just don't think like that. Yeah. And I watch my wife who does and other people who do. And it's like I have an inability to think a big picture. I have an exceptional ability at focusing on the thing that is in front of me. And I believe that it probably has to do with ADD and the way that my brain works in the chemistry. But it's what it has created a work ethic and a focus that, you know, I can just be in the studio for 14 hours. Or I can be doing a music video and editing it and just keep going.

59:35And that's how I got good at my craft was putting in those long, long hours where other people will be like, All right, let's go outside. And I'm like, no, it's not done yet. Let's keep working. But in terms of the next 20 years, I don't know. I don't know. I'm excited to pivot. You know, I don't think that, you know, in a decade, I'm going to be like, you know, I can't wait to play this show tonight. I don't know, you know, we'll see what happens. But what I have realized and part of this comes from, you know, working on my golf clothing company, Belgy Boys, which has been so fun, such a labor of love and to be able to design clothes and watch people wear them.

1:00:22And, you know, the creative process that that has been particularly in COVID, that's not going to be my only pivot. It's just not. It doesn't fulfill me in the same way. What does fulfill me with actual meaning is, is our youth program called the Residency in Seattle and thinking about actually, you know, getting a permanent spot, year long with staffing, where we have a home for the residency. That actually is inspiring to me. That has meaning. That has lasting potential. It's deeper than like what color polo is this going to be? And I think that they can coexist because I do enjoy this as well.

1:01:06I love Belgy Boys. I love golf. But for the bigger picture, what do you want your legacy to be? And not for the purpose of ego, but like, how do you want to leave the greatest impact to make the greatest impact with our precious time on this earth? We don't know how much we have left. It's finite. It could be, you know, gone tomorrow. What can you hang your hat on and be like, you know what? I took a risk. I got uncomfortable. I sacrificed. I showed up. I worked really hard. I celebrated the wins. I took the losses on the chin and I kept going. That's the kind of life I want. And it's the kind of life I wanted today.

1:01:52And it's the same life I want in 20 years, regardless of where that leads me. All those years ago, your dad asked your question at that family get together. He said, are you happy? All these years later, you're sat in this table in London. Are you happy? I think happiness is fleeting. Happiness comes and goes. I think that what is sustainable is meaning, is purpose. I'm not going to be happy every day. It's going to go like this. In this moment, yes, I am happy. But in general, in my life right now, am I happy? I would say absolutely yes. But there's trials and tribulations through it all. And what I have found is that those moments of being tested, of sorrow, of betrayal, of growth, all of those turn into progress if we can use them as medicine, if we can accept them as blessings rather than this idea.

1:03:08This is one thing I've been thinking about a lot lately is this idea of like, victimhood, of mentally going to a place of, oh, they wronged me or I'm a victim. No, this is an opportunity. This is a blessing that has been put in front of me and how I get to handle it now and show up. And it becomes toxic in my mind if I'm thinking of it about what are they doing to me? How could they do this? Just like we were talking about earlier, it becomes medicine when I can show up from a place of, I might not know why this is happening, but I have faith that I am absolutely at the right place right now. And I'm going to show up clean.

1:03:52I'm not going to escape. I am going to be my true self, tell the truth even when I don't want to. And keep it pushing. That's what creates meaning and fulfillment. And that is what I'm after, not momentary happiness. There seems to be a real authenticity to your new album, Ben. And I think maybe that's even evidenced in the choice of the name to some degree because you've called it after yourself after the name that your parents gave to you. And throughout the album, I felt a certain sense of, I was going to say I don't give a fuck about what I'm supposed to be to some degree, because it feels like all of you, as opposed to just a narrow part of you, if that makes sense.

1:04:40Absolutely. And I say that in part because I listened to the first record, and then I got like six or seven records down. And it was just like, you haven't, the first record didn't sound like the sixth record. It was like a completely different kind of expression. So I was thinking it's kind of someone that just doesn't really give a fuck about what they're supposed to make. And they're making what they care about. Maybe that's my assessment of it. How accurate was that? What was your thinking going into this? And how is this project different to all of the other projects? I think that you summed it up beautifully.

1:05:14And I love to be able to do all of that. And just like walking in the studio and be like, what is speaking to me today?

1:05:25You know, maybe it's a dance song from 1984. Maybe it's a, you know, I'm going through something. Maybe it's a pop song. Maybe it's like I want to rap, you know, you know, with Primo scratching. And it sounds like it's from the 90s. Like it's whatever direction I want to go is like, I don't want to feel limited. Like, oh, but that's not what you do. No, I could do whatever I want to do. And you're right in that it's all me. Like those are all bits and pieces of me. And I think for a long time, and that's what I've always done kind of. So how does it differ? I don't know. I feel like all, maybe there's been a little bit more cohesion on other albums, but for the most part, that's what I've always done is those are all, those are all facets of my expression.

1:06:15And I think it's confused people, you know, because like, you know, I'll have homies that are like, yo, you dropped heroes, and then you came out with this, like, you know, pop song with the music video directed by your daughter, like, what is going on? And I'm like, yep, that's what I did. But doesn't authenticity confuse people anyway? Because conformity doesn't confuse people. No, you're right. conformity fits. Yes, conformity fits. Authenticity doesn't. No, and they want me to be this version. Yeah. And, you know, radio wants me to be this version. And, you know, this, it's like, you're right.

1:06:55I mean, authenticity confuses people. And once people can box, put it in a box, package it, be able to point to it that this is this, this is that it makes it a lot easier as an artist to, or as a, you know, observer to judge. I don't like it because it's this. Yeah. Versus like, oh, shit, he did that. But then he did that. And I like that. But I would never list, you know, whatever people are trying to figure it out. I'm like, I'm just going to keep making the music that I've always made. And, um, again, I have a faith now that it lands where it's supposed to land. And that process has been therapeutic for me of just detaching, detaching from the outcome, regardless of what it is.

1:07:44Just like, just make it because you love it, dude. That's all. I think that's a super and, you know, powerful lesson, an important one that I think everyone without maybe realizing it can actually really relate to. I even have that a lot on this show where I will have such a diverse range of guests that on every conversation I have. There's a comment saying, like, get back to interviewing CEOs. Or why, like, why is this person on why are you interviewing sports people? Or what, and there was maybe a point where I thought, it crossed my mind. Maybe they're right. Maybe I should just like stay in my lane.

1:08:16But the authentic me goes, I care about so many fucking things. Right. I love sports. I love businesses. I love music. I love psychology. So can I just run the experiment of being myself? Yeah. And I refer to it as an experiment because there's a perceived cost to running that experiment. You don't know the outcome. Are people just going to stop listening? Running that experiment has been most importantly, it's okay. It's worked. But it's been great for me. As in, like, I can show up every day and like my life. Regardless of whether people want to listen, I can really enjoy this. And that's how I can run this as a marathon opposed to as a sprint.

1:08:50Like, when we conform, it's like, I've never seen it be sustainable for my guests when they're like wearing a mask for too long. I could do this for the rest of my life because I'm being myself. Do you see what I mean? Absolutely. We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks a question for the next guest. Not knowing who they're leaving it for. And the question that's been left for you by our previous guest is...

1:09:14Is there someone from your past that you should have a conversation with that you haven't had? If so, why haven't you had it? And what is that conversation?

1:09:30Hmm, that's a great question.

1:09:36As my parents get older, that there's probably some conversations there, particularly with my dad, that I... I go back and forth on having. And, you know, a relationship that I might want with him that I think that there's some fear around maybe he doesn't desire with me.

1:10:15And it's a tricky one with parents. It's a tricky one with family. Like having deep conversations around what our relationship looks like or what it looks like growing up or whatever. You know, I'm from a family where you kind of... You smile through it. I think there's a reason why I never heard my parents fight. I think that there is a... Just be happy. Don't talk about it, just be happy. And that hasn't been my experience on this earth. And I think that at times it's challenged them. And then at a certain point, you're like, yo, dude, your dad's 75 years old. Like, you know, he is who he is.

1:11:00But I think if my dad passed tomorrow, I would probably feel like there was just... Did I really make an effort to connect on the level that I intuitively wanted to outside of his reaction to my words. I completely relate to that. With my own dad. Yeah. I completely relate. And I don't know why I've never had the conversation. I don't know what it is. I don't think he's got the tools. I've not got the tools. We've not got the tools. Right. Fear of the re. Fear of the re. Fear of the re. But you probably do have the tools.

1:11:48I think it's interesting because you can have... I can have the tools with my girlfriend. That's what I'm saying. Well, we've like learnt together how to do the tools. But then I look over at my dad and I go, we've not figured out how to do this together. Because there's like, you know, we go through different... There's like a changing of the guard almost. It's like, our parents, you know, my parents were byproducts of their parents. And these are very different times in civilization. And where we have gotten to in terms of talking about our emotions. And mental health. And being able to process masculinity or ego or these things, you know, going to therapy or going to a 12 -step meeting or, you know, really working on ourselves like, my dad has never done any of that internal work.

1:12:39Because that's not what men did in his generation. And, you know, sure, there's exceptions. But as a whole, my dad's generation was different. And I watched the younger generation from me and the way that they're fluid and love each other and gender is a social construct. And these walls are getting torn down. And I'm like, I'm trying to keep up with it. And, you know, I'm having my own moments of just like, wait, how does this fit? And what is this? And I feel old all of a sudden. And they're just like, don't you get it? Like, this is all fake. And I'm trying to, you know, so I think that going to my dad, there is a certain level of just communication about emotions that I'm really used to.

1:13:27That he's not. Because he probably never had those conversations with his dad. His dad was like, in the war and had five kids and like just getting a meal on, you know, a meal to each one of those five boys in the house was a struggle alone. Much less trying to talk about how you felt. That wasn't part of the day. But if he wasn't going to respond then. And you had a chance to say those last words. What would those words be? Irrespective of response or impact or feedback. You know what I've come to the conclusion of is that we're all doing the best that we can do. And my dad's doing the best that he could do.

1:14:18And instead of me, because I have a lot of friends that didn't have a dad at all, their dad pieced out, you know. And I think it's easy to, particularly when you have kids, you have this idea of what your parents are going to be like as grandparents. And my grandparents are great grandparents. I want them around more. Not even for the childcare. Just because I think that family is so important. I think that nuclear family is so important. I think that we have, you know, we come from like communities where we helped raise children together. And you know, this porch looked out over to this porch.

1:15:09And we had actual tangible human connection. And I think that I've desired something in my, in having kids. And in reflecting on my own childhood and what that was like with my parents. Now that I'm a dad. And I'm like, oh, I didn't do any of this with my dad. I didn't do. Damn, what was my life like? Oh, he, you know, but instead of looking at it like in any way, I am a victim because my dad works so much. Sure, you know, whatever it was. It's like, my dad was amazing. He worked so much. And he provided. And he sent my eyes to rehab. And he sent me to college. And he showed up with love. And instead of like the opposite of all of that, like he's not doing this, this, this, this, this, this, I want him to be this, this, this, this.

1:16:08It's like my dad is who he is. And it's made me who I am. And sure I desire a closeness that I don't know if we'll ever get to, you know, an open level of just hanging out being okay with that, telling him how I really feel. I don't know if that's important.

1:16:32But what's preventing me from having that conversation is that.

1:16:43It's a hard, it's a hard conversation to have. Family is so layered. We're not talking about like a friend I met six years ago. We're talking about this person that brought me into this world. Our DNA, the very fabric, the, our identity, this, it's a lot there. It's a lot there. And I think sometimes I question if.

1:17:15How much do you push other people to get outside of their comfort zone? I know it's not comfortable. It's not comfortable for me. It definitely wouldn't be comfortable for him. How much do you put? I mean, what's preventing you from.

1:17:28Talking with your dad. At whatever level it is. I think it's probably just, to be honest, I think it's like, I'm going to say things, but I've just not tried in the way that I should have. It's just feeling like. The bridge to doing that is not there. What I mean by is like. I don't think he's got the tools. And I don't think I've got the tools with him. Yes. I would say exactly the same thing. That's what I mean. Because with my, it's funny in generations, we all seem to be able to do that sideways and down, as you said. So like, you could probably have those conversations with your kids. Absolutely.

1:18:09We do all the time. But as you've said, when we look up, our parents, the generation they came from, they didn't do podcasts like this, where they talk about their feelings and emotions and stuff and mental health. So they didn't learn the tools. And it's like, can you teach an old dog new tools? It's probably an excuse on my part, because that's what I asked you the question about. Regardless of how they respond. Yes. Because they, both of our dads aren't going to live forever. And what's going to live on after they've gone is the regret. Right. And I don't want the regret. I don't want the regret either.

1:18:38So I just want to, I'm, I need to write a letter. Oh, yeah. And just send the fucking letter. Yeah. You know what I mean? I guess this is a conversation for another time, because you've got to show tonight, Wembley. So I'm going to let you go. But thank you so much for so many things. Thank you, first and foremost, for creating great music that's brought joy to our lives. But I think even more important than that music, that has helped people in such a profound way. Not everybody does that. Beyond the views. Like, I think you've clearly come to learn that views are one thing. And then impact is a completely different thing.

1:19:09And the impact that I just saw in that one video, Drugg dealer, is would be profound enough life work for any one individual. Just in the comment section from what I saw. Beyond that, you've repeated that over and over again. And even on your new album, Ben, within the first paragraph of the first song, you're taking me back to your own struggles, which I think is, as we've described, that vulnerability you demonstrate in these conversations in your interviews and your music, is the doorway to connection. And I don't think you'll ever even see the extent to which you've allowed people to feel that connection through your music, through your art and through these conversations.

1:19:41So that's what I want to thank you for. And it's an honor to meet you and to get to do this, because I'm a fan of your work. I'm a fan of the man and I'm a fan of everything you've touched. So thank you so much. God, thank you so much. You're amazing. This is incredible. And I really appreciate you having me. You just, you have a light to you that, uh, it's very impressive. And I get it. Thank you, Ben.

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