Moment 197: The 10-Minute Rule That Beats ANY Bad Habit & This Weird Trick Forms Good Habits Instantly! Professor Steve Peters & Nir Eyal

0:03There are three systems in your head, keeping it very simple. It's much more complex than that, but simplifying it. One of the systems will help you think very logically, and I call that the human system. It thinks logically, but it's very slow, which means if you operate with a human, your body and your reflexes will slow down, because you're analysing as you go along, and it slows the system so you're more pensive. If it goes into the second system, which will probably come back to, the CHIMP system, this is a primitive system, which thinks. It's more than just a reaction and impulsive system.

0:39It thinks when it moves, it can move at speed. But it thinks emotionally. Finally, the third system is a computer. It just needs programming. The key to the computer, particularly in sports, is it moves so fast it's approximately 20 times quicker than the human system to execute. It's about four times quicker than the CHIMP system. Habits. A lot of people are thinking about habits as January. I made a video on habits a couple of weeks ago. In a par through the jungle, you talk about how our habits are influenced by our self -image. That was a curious sentence to read, and not something I'd heard before.

1:23What do you mean by that? There's lots of words we form habits, whether they're helpful or destructive. I'm giving examples. That's when you've picked out. It's quite powerful if you grasp it. For example, I'll take the simple example, which I may have put in the book. If I wrote down, I'd say to someone, do you see yourself as someone who is a tidy person who gets on with things immediately? Do you see yourself as someone who procrastinates? It's pretty untidy. I'm untidy. Right. If you've got that self -image and you go home and your room is untidy, I'm being very black and white here, then there's no feelings at all, because that's who you are, you're untidy.

2:00That's true. So, have you done anything? That's true. Well, as if you say, right, change your image and say, actually, my chimp being untidy, I'm a tidy person. In some cases, you're now programming the computer, you're now going and say, wow, this isn't me. That can change. If your self -image is, I'm not my chimp. That's an untidy little beggar. I am actually a tidy person. How do I change that self -image? Well, you've got to sit down and reflect on this. I mean, a lot of the things in the book, I've done as a young doctor, and I became a psychiatrist, I decided that I didn't want to be a psychiatrist who didn't actually manage themselves.

2:35And that's no detriment to psychs who struggle, because it's not an easy career or any therapist. It's a tough career. But I decided, look, I'm going to work on me, because I can't keep doing this, which is where the chimp model came from. And it was one of my light bulb moments many, many years ago, where I would be procrastinating. And then I suddenly thought, you know what? That isn't, who I want to be. So I thought, that isn't me. I'm actually somewhere gets on with things. And I used to get in, and I'd just go right, get on with it. And it's never left me. I'd just, no, that is who I am. So I'd become uncomfortable now.

3:09If things were untidy, I'd get it. And they'd not get it, tidy it up. So I start perceiving myself as this energized guy who's going to get up and do stuff. So if you define yourself, Amy, you're actually programming your computer to say, this is normal. Anything else isn't. And that will actually help your chimp to annotate, which will then join forces and tidy the room. So instead of your chimp going, I can't be bothered. Suddenly it's saying, well, I'm being told we're not untidy. So this isn't acceptable, but not normal. And that's what I did. And I found that very powerful in my life. The other thing I found really curious in this section about habits in chimp to, in stage four of the book is, when people think about habit loops, they often have a reward at the end of it.

3:53You reference suffering. Now there's this quote I heard many years ago. I think it was just over 10 years ago, it must have been, God, I'm getting old. Where I heard this YouTuber say, change happens when the pain of staying the same becomes greater than the pain of making a change. And when I'm thinking about friends that I have in my life, all myself, where there's habits or those behavior patterns that I want to break, sometimes I'm thinking about one particular person who's a musician. Sometimes they have to get to that rock bottom place before you see change happen. Is that because of that?

4:26Is that because sometimes the suffering has to? Yeah, I mean, it's sort of self -evident. For example, in a bad relationship, and it's really not doing any favors and it's not doing them any favors, but it's not bad enough. Then you struggle along and struggle along. But if suddenly something happens where it becomes untenable, and it's painful now, then you move. You think, stop the relationship. And then you look back thinking, why didn't I move earlier? And the answer was because it wasn't painful enough. And the same with like untidyness. You leave it and leave it and leave it. And then somebody comes in and says, A partner.

5:00Yeah, lie me. I can't live with this. And suddenly you think, wow, suddenly it's painful. Is there a way to get there without the person needing to point it out? Yeah, there is. I mean, when I talk about relationships are critical to us. And I say to people, the way we move is we've got to, I have the triangle of change, which is really the three key things that causes to move. And with the one you've highlighted is either it's got a massive reward or there's going to be massive pain and suffering. So if you're trying to, you want to, you're courting someone you want to form a permanent relationship when they say, I can't stand untidyness, you'll guarantee your flat's perfect when they come in.

5:35Right? Because you're thinking, if I don't, I'm going to lose this person. So the reward is so big. However, then they marry you. And for some reason, we've taken the granted. And we forget that bit now. And then the flat becomes untidy. And then she starts saying to you, you know, I'm struggling with this. I'm struggling. But there's no threat yet. So now it's not painful enough. So she's struggling with it. I love the guy, but this is, this is now what I do. So I say, let's increase the pain. I want you to sit down and imagine she can't cope. And she's at a bad day. And someone at work says, oh, come over and chat.

6:10And this young man has a tidy flat naturally. And she goes, oh, wow. And I warn people, how are you going to feel if she walks? Because once they've gone, they've very, very come back. And if you don't look after them, someone else will. If you reflect on that, that can suddenly make reality come to life to say, I'm not there yet, but plimey this would be painful. So I'm suddenly going to stop and think, let me look after them. Because if I don't, somebody will. So you can increase the concept of suffering by reflecting and thinking what would like be like if she left? There's, there's, like the devil's in the detail.

6:47Let's say that you go home and you really make an effort. And you tidy the house and you really clean it up. And she comes home and she doesn't notice. And there's a danger now. And I do advocate that sometimes you say it to them. Because your chimp needs to get that accolade. So it's no good not helping it. You don't need that, but your chimp does. So it's worth saying, can I just say because I love you, I've tied it to the flat. Because then your chimp goes, right, good, I get the accolade now. So I'm not saying you should not be chimp out. I'm saying you should be getting the chimp so it feels good.

7:16And then hopefully she'll say, wow, I'll love you too and I appreciate that. And then that's nicely rounded up. But you do get circuses. That's where I'll work with people and say, I tied it to the flat. I did everything she doesn't even recognize it. I can't stand suffering my day. She didn't recognize it. And I think, well, you know, I'm not saying I'm a goodie goodie, but I'm saying, let them know because your chimp's saying, please make sure they know and they've recognized it. And again, I don't know. There may be couples where they say, if I say that she'll lose it, so as it will don't do it.

7:44Tell me and I as a therapist will say, you're well done. And that might be enough for your chimp. So again, it's that thing which I keep saying to Steve, I've got to work with the person in front of me and even potentially their partner or family and say, well, what would they do before we make a plan? That was step one in your triangle. That's one, yeah, one of the points. The other two, for people to shift, they've got to have psychological mindedness, which means they've got to understand that it's not about what happens to us in life. It's how we deal with it. That's basically what we mean.

8:16So we understand that just because you've got certain emotions, it doesn't mean you can't change them and things have to change. Our people have to change for you to change. It's within your power to be responsible for the things you believe and change. So psychological mindedness means you get up and start working on this. It's within your power to shift things. That's that personal responsibility. Yes. And also, if you can't shift them, you know, like say, go back. Let's say life hadn't been great for you. And I'm sure you weren't hard to get where you've got. But let's say you're still in that poverty situation.

8:47You thought, I didn't have the skill to do what I'm doing. I didn't use that skill because it was never there. So a lot of people are trapped in this. And I'm still living in a pretty bad place. I'm struggling financially. And that's a lot of people. It's painful. But again, psychological mindedness, tough as it is is to say, well, let me deal with that. I can't change it, but I can't change my approach to it. And that's not easy. I'm not saying that's easy. And then you have to work on how do you do that? There'll be different for different people. So psychological mindedness means take responsibility, accept what's in front of you and then move forward.

9:23So other than that, what you do, non -psychological mindedness, where you blame everybody else or blame circumstances, I said this happened to me and childhood or these may all be genuine, but they're not actually helpful. Desempowering, right? Yeah, you're using them as an excuse not to take responsibility and turn them over. And what's like giving your power to something else, right? Yes. And you've got to get the power back and say it's within my power. What are people like doing that? Why do people like make excuses? Including me, I have to say one more thing. Again, it's really difficult, I mean, a lot of people, when they're in not a great place, it find it very easy to be the victim.

10:01They don't want to be a victim, but they find it easy. So they'll use an illness as an example, so that it gives them that remit. So, well, I'm not well, I'm not well. When reality is, they don't know how to move forward. So it's easy to just, I'm not well and people then go well and not well. And there'll be some truth in it, but I should not fully the truth. So people often use as a defense mechanism the victim role. Sometimes they, I have been a victim and then they need to work through that process it, but there's a danger you start to use it. Or you start blaming circumstance like you might have said to me, I didn't make it because my parents never helped me.

10:39Well, you know there are people whose parents don't help them, but they do make it. So you have to say, well, hang on, don't use that because it'll keep you in this not great place. There will be truth in it potentially. And then I will give the TLC and the recognition that that didn't help. But on the other hand, let's look at what you can do regardless of the background. And then that last point in the triangle. Right. How do you think of that triangle commitment? Yeah, what I'm saying with this is, again, teasing out the neuroscience. If we go on motivation and again, if people use it, great, all right.

11:08But the evidence is that it doesn't really help, but it doesn't really work. It's very hard to maintain. Whereas if that's the chimp system, so it can work if your chimp is multibit because they reward is so big, then motivation will follow that and be high. But we all know that I get a lot of talks. Can you help motivate? And I say, no, not at all. I don't want to do that because yet constantly propping it up. My approach, which is not as, as I never know, agree is if you look at the science, neuroscience, if you use commitment, that means I remove my emotion and I plan on what I have to do and I get on with it.

11:41So commitment, there's a lot of evidence that that makes us succeed. So for example, if I've got to go and weed the garden, it's not my favourite pastime. But I think, right, you know, the neighbors might complain. I don't have any neighbors, but they might. So my chimp's going to leave it. Oh, okay, there's only weeds and it's going to kill you back in it. But I would then say, they'll show up. Right, you stay in here. I'm going out and if you want to join me, great, but I'm doing the garden. I remove emotion and I say, what has to be done is getting done and is getting done now. We're not discussing it and I will start motivation will follow commitment.

12:17And that means the chimp will then get behind me because by the time we've done half the garden, it'll say, I can't believe we've left it this long. That's a typical approach by the chimp. And then it tries to make me finish. Now I have to stop and say, let's respect my back now. We'll stop now. So I manage my emotions by using commitment. And if they don't marry, I've moved them to one side. So I don't really work with emotion to drive me to do something. I think if people can use that and use motivation, that's great. My experience has been it doesn't actually hold. One of the things this podcast has taught me from speaking to all these people across multiple fields is that sometimes we can feel like our body, our wiring is against us, especially as it relates to health.

12:59We know sugar is bad. So why does our brain send us these cravings to go and eat sugar? And in the case of distractions and sort of behavioral psychology, I know instinctively and intuitively that distractions like hanging out on TikTok for an hour is bad. But my brain is doing it. What does that tell us about how we should go about adopting behavior change? Yeah, so that's why it's it's really about this holistic model. So that's what took me the most time to figure out was what are the four mandatory components of living without regret of doing what you say you're going to do. So the first step is mastering these internal triggers, figuring out why you feel this way.

13:44What is that underlying sensation? So if you're trying to avoid that chocolate bar, it might be hunger or it might not be hunger. So I used to be clinically obese and I'll tell you what, I did not eat to excess because I was hungry. I was eating to excess because I was lonely. I was eating to excess because I was bored. I was eating to excess because I felt guilty about how much I had just eaten. It wasn't just about the hunger. Very few people who are obese are just hungry all the time. That's not what's going on. It's because we're eating our feelings. That's what's happening. So that's the first step.

14:17We have to understand the deeper reason. I'm really compelled by really interested in how you figure out the thing you were trying to escape from because I think that's the starting point, which is a very difficult starting point for most people. They can see the sort of compulsive behavior that's maybe making them live outside of their values or causing them to excessively eat or excessively watch porn or whatever it might be. But diagnosing the root cause of that is a difficult thing to do. Most of us don't know what we don't know. It isn't it isn't. I mean, I'm not you don't have to go to therapy.

14:48Not there's anything wrong with it. If it's helpful, please do it. But that's not a requirement. Something as simple as, you know, so whenever I work, I have on my desk, I have a little posted note and a pen handy. And when I get distracted or when I even feel the sense of distraction, just noting down down that sensation, just writing down what is it that I felt right before the distraction. So I write every day and all I want to do when I write, you know this, right? When you write, all you want to do is go Google something or do some research or go check email for a quick sec or let me just find that one thing that might be, and they're all distractions.

15:25They're all taking you away from the core thing you need to do, which you said you would do, which is right. And so if I can just pause for a second and reflect on what was that sensation that I was feeling right before, it was boredom, it was anxiety, it was fearfulness, it was uncertainty. Just writing it down is an incredible first step towards gaining power over that discomfort, because then you can start to identify it. And so what I'll do many times is just pause to reflect on, wait a minute, what's going on there? What is that sensation? Because then you can begin to do what's called reframing the trigger.

15:58So now when I feel the sensation of wanting to get distracted, I say, you know what? What's going on here? Okay, I'm feeling the sensation because I'm stressed. Why am I stressed? Because this is really important to me. I want to get this right for my readers and for myself. And so reframing it as not a negative, but something that happens not to me, but for me, that that sensation is a sign that I can listen to. I think most of us, we think when we feel this discomfort, that's happening to us. Right? But it's not, it's happening for us. It's a signal for us to listen to. Now how we interpret it is up to us.

16:32And that's where the magic happens. If you interpret it as something that is harmful, is dangerous, that you need to escape. Right? You don't want to feel that uncomfortable sensation. You look for distraction. But what we find is that high performers across every field, when you think about the arts, when you think about sports, business, high performers, when they feel those internal triggers, they experience the same internal triggers the rest of us do. They experience loneliness and stress and anxiety just like everyone else does. But they deal with it by using it as rocket fuel to push them towards traction.

17:03Whereas distractable people, as soon as they feel that discomfort, they try and escape it with distraction. That's the big difference. And then that second step. So now I'm clear. I'm trying not to do this book because this particular chapter, I just don't feel that competent on. I don't feel like I've researched it. It's making my brain feel a bit hot thinking about it. I reframe it and go, okay, so I've understood it now. Then what do I do? Yeah. So step one is... Understand it. Yeah, is master those internal triggers? Yeah. Or they become your master. Yeah. That's step number one. There's a bunch of techniques we're just covering the surfaces over.

17:38There's a dozen different techniques that you can use to help you master those internal triggers. Now, the second step is to make time for traction. Okay. So when you have those doubts, one of these techniques that is really life -changing is scheduling time for worry. Scheduling time for worry. That what happens is in the moment, we feel these feelings, we think these thoughts, and a distractable person will say, well, I got to deal with that sensation right now. I have to work through whatever it is that I'm feeling right now, and they stop everything to do that. And that's not the right method.

18:12The right method is to write down that sensation and get back to the task at hand as quickly as possible. We're using these four strategies. Then later on, right now that you've written down what that sensation is, you're going to make time in your calendar to think about that sensation. So you're processing it. Using the book example of a chapter 12, and I'm struggling with this chapter. Right. So you step number one, you have these tools. Maybe I can digress for a second. I'll tell you my favorite tool for mastering internal triggers. It's called the 10 -minute rule. This comes from acceptance of commitment therapy.

18:46And the 10 -minute rule says that you can give in to any distraction, any distraction. Maybe it's smoking that cigarette if you're trying to quit. Maybe it's eating that piece of chocolate cake if you're on a diet. Maybe it's checking social media, whatever it is, whatever distraction. You can give into that distraction, but not right now. You can give in in 10 minutes. Don't misunderstand. Not four 10 minutes. Sometimes people get it wrong. It's in 10 minutes. Okay. So what does that do? What that does is we talked about psychological reactants earlier. And you asked how do you, what do you do about psychological reactants?

19:17You're allowing yourself to acknowledge that you are in control. That you decide what many people do is they have strict obstinates. Right? Strict obstinates says, no, I will not do it. Right? I won't eat sugar. I won't get distracted. I will do this. I will do that. As a post is saying, hey, I'm an adult. I can do whatever I want. I choose not to go off track for the next 10 minutes. That's it. In 10 minutes, I can give into whatever I want. So now I'm in control. You know, the whole just say no technique turns out, makes you ruminate and think about and have more discomfort around the thing you want.

19:52Increasing these internal triggers. And that actually is what makes you give into that distraction. We know that with smoking actually, it's pretty interesting. We're finding that nicotine is less and less part of the reason people get addicted to cigarettes. It's more about the rumination around, I want to smoke, but I can't. I want to smoke, but I shouldn't. I want to smoke. I want to smoke. I want to smoke. Fine. I'll finally smoke. Now I get relief. How do we know this? You asked smokers, why do they smoke? The number one reason is relaxing. That makes no sense. Nicotine is a stimulant. It makes no sense.

20:21Why would it be relaxing? It's relaxing because finally, I can stop telling myself, I don't have to do it anymore. I don't have to fight with myself anymore. And that eases that psychological reactance. I can finally give in. So when you use this 10 minute rule and say, okay, I can give into that distraction in 10 minutes from now, what you're doing is you're establishing agency. Right. Now you're in control. And we can do anything for 10 minutes. And if 10 minutes feels like too long, try the five minute rule. The idea is that you're building that ability over time. So the 10 minute rule becomes the 12 minute rule becomes the 15 minute rule.

20:53And you're learning, wait a minute, I can't actually delay gratification. Remember, all these problems of distraction are an impulse control issue. So when you teach yourself, wait a minute, okay, I can delay for five, ten minutes. That's no big deal. You're proving to yourself, hey, I'm not addicted to these things. I'm not powerless. My brain isn't being hijacked. I do have control as long as I use these practices. Right. So the 10 minute rule is a very, very effective technique. So what happens then? So I've compartmentalized it. I'm writing my book on my chapter 12. I've got a bunch of worries pop in.

21:22I'm scheduling that for later. Step three. So step three is hacking back the external triggers. So this is what we do talk about the usual suspects, the pings, the dings, the rings. That's where we, you know, very systematically go through what a lot of people complain about. But it's really only 10 % of the problem because 90 % of our distractions begin from within. But people do have these issues. We talk about the phone, the computer. What turns out to be a much bigger problem is not the technology. It's what the technology is attached to. Right. So what if it's your boss? That's the distraction.

21:55What if it's your kids that are distraction? We love to death, right? Our kids are great. But they can be a huge source of distraction. Meetings. Oh my god. How many stupid meetings do we have to attend that are nothing but a distraction? Especially now that Zoom makes it accessible so that wherever you are, you know, people can call meetings. Those are huge distractions. Of course, Slack channels. And that's what we get into more in the book in terms of, okay, systematically. What do you do about these various external triggers? So we're on step three of the four steps. What's step number four?

22:26So step four is is preventing distraction with packs. So packs are these what's called a pre -commimment device. So this is what you do after the first three steps. So you master the internal triggers. You make time for traction. You hack back the external triggers. As the last line of defense, as the firewall against distraction, you're going to prevent distraction with a pack. Now, what are packs? It's when you decide in advance what you will do to keep yourself in that task. And there's three types of packs. We have we call effort packs, price packs, and identity packs. An effort pack is when there's some bit of friction in between you and the thing you don't want to do.