Moment 211: Dr. Andrew Huberman: The Real Reason You're Always Exhausted & Have No Dopamine!

0:01The Direvcio's brought you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy. Just drop in some details about yourself and see if you're eligible to save money when you bundle your home and auto policies. The process only takes minutes and it could mean hundreds more in your pocket. Visit progressive .com after this episode to see if you could save. Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary, not available in all states. We can again look at things through the lens of biology and say, well, what are we talking about when we're talking about energy?

0:35What is this energy thing that people are talking about? And I think it largely boils down to these catacolomines, the dopamine, epinephrine, nor epinephrine cocktail that is setting the brain into a mode of attention. Of motivation, we now know dopamine is more about motivation to seek rewards as opposed to feeling of pleasure or reward. There's a lot to be said about that. And keep in mind that these three neurochemicals, dopamine, nor epinephrine and epinephrine, have been the neurochemical cocktail by which humans and other mammals have set and pursued goals for hundreds of thousands of years.

1:14So we don't have like a unique system, a unique neurochemical system for seeking out of mates versus food versus creating shelter versus creating technology and whole societies. And it's not just these three neurochemicals. Certainly there are other things involved, acetylcholine and a bunch of other things, neuroplasticity for that matter. But it's clearly the case that the currency that the brain has set around getting us into forward center of mass, as I say, to envision something, explore. Nope, not down there this way. Ah, there's a scent here. And it trade out an actual scent for, oh, there's something interesting here.

1:54There's someone interesting here. And like exploring that, no, that's a dead path to cul -de -sac, turnaround, go, oh, here. And then connecting these nodes of progress, what's progress? Ah, there's kind of another surge of these catacolomines, which sets us in forward center of mass. You know, I don't want to oversimplify the biology, but when we talk about energy, for instance, taking time to rest at night, sleep, taking time to maybe meditate a few minutes or do this practice that I'm a huge fan of, non -sleep deep rest, which is kind of a body -scan, deep relaxation, long exhales. It's a practice very similar to an ancient practice called Yoganidra, which has been practiced for thousands of years.

2:35It's a kind of pseudo -sleep. And we know from a really nice study that NSDR, non -sleep deep rest, aka Yoganidra, can increase the baseline levels of dopamine in a brain area called the basal ganglia, which is for action generation and also withholding action by about 60 percent from baseline, just a short period of doing this practice can re -upload dopamine levels to a considerable extent, so a remarkable study, and there others like it. So, what does that mean? Well, it means that in rest, we build up this capacity to be forward center of mass when we emerge from rest. That's why I think we have to sleep every 24 hours.

3:16This is why practices where we deliberately calm ourselves and still ourselves allow us to be more forward center of mass mentally and physically afterwards. It's kind of a duh when we hear it, we kind of go, oh, duh, of course, rest, action, rest, action. But there's a lot more to it. If you start exploring the layers, you start realizing that excitement for things, versus burnout. What's burnout? It's just trying to be forward center of mass for too long. It's, you know, misuse of our dopamine circuitry. It's, you know, ignoring the fact that these catacolamines and dopamine in particular, they are not infinite in their availability, right?

3:56There's a reservoir of them that can be depleted, but it can be replenished as well. And one of the best analogies for this was actually explained to me by a guy named Dr. Kyle Gillette. He does some online work as a public facing physician and a chronology in particular. And he said, with dopamine, it's kind of like a wave pool. You have this reservoir that can allow you to pursue things or scroll the internet or build businesses, whatever it is. If you are really forward center of mass, very intensely, you start generating these waves. And if you get big waves of dopamine and they crash out of the pool, you start depleting the reservoir.

4:29So when I think about drugs of abuse, like cocaine, which leads to huge surges in dopamine, or amphetamines, huge surges in dopamine, what do we know about huge surges in dopamine? Well, after those huge surges, you drop below your initial baseline to a state in which the same thing doesn't feel as good anymore. You need so much more energy to get the same output. That's what this is, right? That's what this is. So I'll put this on the screen for anyone. Yeah, so my colleague at Stanford, Dr. Anilemke, who runs our dual diagnosis addiction clinic and wrote the wonderful book, Dopamine Nation, described this best.

5:06It's sort of like a seesaw, but whereby you get a big peak in dopamine, let's say from a drug of abuse like cocaine. People on cocaine, it's all about ideas and what's next. They're not like, hey, let's just kick back. It's all about what's, in fact, they have a million ideas per second. Most of them are terrible ideas, but they're very forward center of mass, motivated. And then when the drug wears off, they feel very low and very depressed. The dopamine is actually depleted below baseline. People that work excessively, we all have different abilities to work out, but people that work excessively and abuse stimulants in order to do that achieve these peaks.

5:43Is that like, so what would be an everyday example of that working excessively? Do you mean like pre -workout or something, or do you mean - Yeah, I'm not anti -pre -workout. Listen, I love to be well -rested, hydrated, have a nice pre -workout drink. Maybe even a little shot of espresso. Listen to some music and have an incredible leg day workout. It's an amazing feeling, right? But if you do that every single time, you start stacking all these catacolamine release -inducing drugs. Okay, so you're getting adrenaline, you're getting epinephrine, which is adrenaline, excuse me, you're getting adrenaline, you're getting noradrenaline, also called norapinephrine, you're getting dopamine release.

6:22You're highly motivated, you're in that state that everyone is seeking, and you try and do that seven days a week, you're not going to do it. And then you wonder why in the afternoon, you're just completely cooked, and you can't do any cognitive work. Well, your dopamine and other things have crashed below baseline. So I think it's important to understand that, as I'm calling it, forward center of mass, really kind of motivated and pursuing goals is great. But most of the time, we're probably best off just coming off the gas pedal just a little bit to maintain that ability to continue to be forward center of mass.

6:59The same thing is true for stress. We hear stress is bad. Well, stress is bad, but it also sharpens your ability to learn. It creates energy. It actually boosts your immune system in the short term. I say, tolerate as much stress as you can, provided you still behave like a kind person, right? Don't say or do things that are unkind. And make sure that you still get great sleep at night. Most people stress, stress, stress, stress, run around, and then they can't sleep at night, and then the next day, they're depleted. But a little bit of stress is healthy. Life is stressed. Things are stressful.

7:32But again, you're going to be in your best state of mind if you're calm and alert. Alert and calm is the magic recipe and the ability to sleep at night. If you want to take a bunch of pre -workout and you want to listen to some loud music and have a great crush, it workout, great. But you should probably also be able to train without all of that. If you're somebody who loves new goals and you're very excited about travel in this and that great. But you have to layer in 50 things and then you're sitting around at home and you're wondering why you're so bored when you're back home and why life is so depressing and you need more travel, more stimulation.

8:06In every domain of life, we see whether or not it's food or exercise or stimulants or sex or media. If you push things to the max, you're going to feel depleted and understimulated afterwards. And this trough below baseline as Analemki taught us with dopamine nation. That trough is a state that can last a long time and it's how long it's proportional to how high that peak in dopamine was. Not how long but how high that peak in dopamine was. And when you're in that trough, that dopamine depleted state, typically what people do is they try and go out or access things that are going to reactivate the dopamine circuitry and all it does is drive them further and further and longer and longer into that trough.

8:53What's needed is a period of waiting, of non -indulgence in any of these excesses that allows them to return to baseline. We know this from drugs of abuse. It takes more and more drug to try and get what turns out to be less and less of a high. Most all addiction, most all compulsive behavior can be cured essentially through a period of abstinence lasting somewhere between 30 and 60 days, which to somebody who's highly motivated to seek that thing or do that thing sounds like an absolute horror. But that is highly effective. So for some people, it's work and stimulants, I'm a number of people taking Adderall and work, work, work, work, work.

9:32I hear from these people all the time, typically they are from the tech and finance world. They're like, why am I burnt out? Well, you've been blasting these catacolomene regulated circuits for years. You need to just accept you're going to feel a little low for a week. Then you're going to feel a little less low. Then you're going to come back to baseline. Then and only then can you really get back into full forward center of mass. But at that point, you can introduce, I do think there is a clinical use case for certain ADHD meds, which are in Fedemid. There are certain people that need those meds.

10:07Other people have driven themselves into this dopamine trough. So they're seeking out anything and everything to get them out of that trough. When really what they need to do is stay away from all that stuff and just wait. Just wait. Going holiday or something. Go on holiday. Try and find reward in smaller things. This is why dogs are wonderful and simpler things. If that sounds heavy and dull to you, chances are you're a bit in the dopamine loop. I've been in these loops before. They're hard to exit. But once you exit them, you look back on them. What was I thinking? Well, you were in a different state.

10:45You're kind of a different animal when you're in pursuit. I think this is so unbelievably important because it really helps people to understand why they do what they do. Before doing a research on you coming here today and before understanding some of this stuff, I thought dopamine was, I don't know, it was this thing that came in these hits maybe. If I did something, I got ahead of it, then I returned to baseline. If I did something again stimulating, I'd got ahead of it, then I returned to baseline. But what actually is happening is I'm doing something that's stimulating in some way. I'm getting this huge peak that I'm crashing below baseline for a while.

11:17And when I'm below baseline, that's when I'm most likely to want to do something that's going to give me a hit again. That's right. And when I saw that, it reminded me of the CGI monitor the continuous glucose monitor that I wore because it was a very similar pattern. If I had a lot of sugar, I had a big peak that I crashed below my baseline. That's a great observation. It's the perfect analogy. Perfect analogy because these regulatory systems are all about trying to maintain homeostasis. We all hear about, we learn about homeostasis, like the desire for balance. The human body and human physiology is actually geared more towards something called alastasis, which involves kind of stress modulation.

11:53But without getting into too many details, these are dynamic systems, meaning brain systems that are designed to allow us to overcome challenges if need be. This is why I always push back on the idea that stress crashes your immune system. You know what? Crashes your immune system, being very, very stressed, working a lot a lot, caretaking for someone else, and then stopping. You always get sick when you stop. Why? Because actually stress activates the immune system. It makes sense that it would do that evolutionarily. And then when we rest, boom, our immune system kind of relaxes a little bit, and then we succumb to that, that, you know, the bacteria virus.

12:30So what does it mean? It means that we should probably learn to modulate, it's like driving a car. Anytime we feel that we're headed toward or in a peak state, we should probably kind of lean back off that state just a tiny bit, just a tiny bit, especially if that peak state is coming by way of pharmacology or some extreme circumstance, just back off a little bit maybe a lot, okay? So when we do that, we learn to master the transition states between these, what I'm referring to as forward center of mass, flat footed or back on my heels. It's a term I learned from a former Navy SEAL operator. He said, with anything in life, you can either be back on your heels like really challenged, flat footed, kind of like common and forward, or forward center of mass like full tilt.

13:13I think most people would do very well to learn to master the transition states between waking and going to sleep, right? Many people can't fall asleep. Many people just kind of like can't turn it off. You can learn how to do that by doing things like non -sleep deep rest, some long exhale breathing. Simple, self -directed, zero -cost tools that help adjust your autonomic nervous system to be more what we call parasympathetic, more rest in digest, just long exhales. Might not work the first time, but over time these become very effective tools to self -direct the shift from forward center of mass to flat footed to just kind of laying back back on your heels and there you go, you're off to sleep.

13:50When you wake up in the morning, some people are just depleted. Maybe you didn't sleep enough, but learning to get forward center of mass shouldn't require excess caffeine and stimulants and super -loud music and a shocking text or email. Ideally, you can transition pretty quickly into being forward center of mass, but not full tilt forward center of mass. Why do I say this? I think for anyone who seeks to be successful in any domain, academics, business, creative endeavors, whatever. If you want to have a long arc life and a long arc career, you really strive to control these transition states.

14:27When I say control, all it really takes is paying attention to them and paying attention to the fact that yes, some people just have inherently more energy. They can do every single workout. It max output. Then shower. They're talking in the gym. Some people are like that. Some people like myself. If I give 100 % to something in the morning, by the afternoon, I'm a little bit depleted. I require a 10 or 20 minute non -sleep deep rest or a nap or just some quiet long exhale breathing. Maybe a little bit of caffeine, which I'm drinking now. There's nothing wrong with healthy stimulants provided they're consumed in moderation.

15:00Maybe in energy drink, those can be great too for some people. Then really going full tilt, focusing one's attention. Then afterwards, taking a few moments, just moments to downshift. I think we hear so much about the power of meditation or non -sleep deep rest or ice baths. What do cold plunges and cold showers do? They stimulate the release of what the catacole means, dopamine, epinephrine, or epinephrine, long duration release. That's why it's useful, in my opinion. For all the debate about deliberate cold exposure, does it increase metabolism? Does it not? The answer seems to be probably not much.

15:34But it's absolutely clear that it causes a huge increase in adrenaline, dopamine, and epinephrine that are very long lasting. That makes you feel great, especially when you get out of the cold. I think that's the value of it. It also saves you on your heating bill. You don't have to have a cold plunge. You take a cold shower. Nobody likes it. But the point is you get out and you feel different. It's a state shift. That's great, but you don't want to do it to excess. For instance, people always say, how long should I go in the cold plunger cold shower? I say, do it the minimum amount so that you get the effect that you're seeking, which is to be more alert and motivated.

16:13I have a friend who did 30 minutes for some reason naked. He said, I did 30 minutes naked in the cold plunge, and then I got sick, and I'm feeling really low. I'm like, because you did 30 minutes. I'm out about the naked part with that. I had to do it. But you had to throw that in there. I'm an extreme guy. I said, how about one minute? How about 30 seconds? How about don't even pay attention to the time? Just get in and stay in as long as until you want to get out and then push through that barrier and then get out. That might be a minute, might be three minutes. Protect yourself. Be safe, but just learn to overcome some challenge and then get out.

16:49We have this fixation that more is better and more is not better. You want the minimal effective dose. Maybe a little bit more because we don't know where minimal is. People say, how many sets in the gym is it? Now it's all about the volume hypertrophy or I've always fairly low recovery quotient. For me, I like to do a couple warm -ups, a few hard sets, two or three hard sets, another exercise, two or three hard sets. That's it for that muscle group. Move on. People always say, well, volume is where it's okay. Great. But when I do 16 to 20 sets per week per muscle group, I'll tell you, I'm depleted.

17:22It doesn't work for me. I just be honest. I chuckle at the exercise scientists who say, well, this is the way it is in this study. Great. That's not how it works for me. Even though I'm a scientist and I trust data, I also trust my own experience. No one's going to tell me that it's placebo because it's what's worked for me. I think that you have to find what your capabilities are. I do think if you look at dog breeds of which I'm obsessed by. If you go to a dog show, which everyone should go to a dog show once, but don't watch the show. Go behind the show where you see all the different dog breeds.

17:55What you'll see is what I saw the first time I did that. You have dogs where they're wagging their tail all the time. They're super excited. They're alert. You can see their eyes, right? They're just bright -eyed. You can see the great Danes. They're super still. Then my favorite breed, and the reason I own them is the bulldog, the essence of economy of effort. They don't even lift their head off the ground. You walk over, you pet them, they'll look up at you. They might wink very still animals, very powerful, but very still animals. Now, I'm not wired like that as you're probably getting the impression.

18:29I have a little bit more spontaneous movement, etc. So I need a lot of mental and physical stimulation in order to be happy in order to feel fulfilled. So for me, there was a lot of work, and I still do a lot of work in order to learn how to downshift, take it down, become a good sleeper, become a good receptor. Reset myself during the middle of the day with things like non -sleep deep rest, which for me has been one of the most powerful tools or long exhale breathing to just bring myself down. Other people, they tend to have a little bit less energy than life to man's of them. So they need to do a bit more cold shower, a little bit more caffeine, but then those people probably need a little bit more rest.

19:04They're like the bulldogs of life. I think even though we're all the same species, just like dogs, there's a lot of variation there. So you have to know thyself, as the Oracle said, understanding a little bit about the catacoleumines, understanding that certain things like exercise, deliberate cold exposure, stimulants like caffeine, and prescription drugs like Adderall, etc. So powerfully caused the release of these catacoleumines, dopamine, epinephrine, and noripinephrine. Leading to big increases in energy and focus, but then always, always, always there's a cost, a trough that follows. Accept that, relax through it, then return to baseline and then go forward or avoid those things altogether.

19:44I'm not telling people what to do. Obviously, the prescription drug thing in particular can be problematic for some people, even addictive. And certainly, I'm not a fan of drugs of abuse, like cocaine and phetamine, absolutely categorically. Never done them, never will. And then other people who tend to veer tortured, you know, being hyper activated, a lot of spontaneous movement. These people tend to be a little bit thinner, a little bit leaner, or just have a ton of natural energy. These people should really learn to incorporate more kind of what I would call calming and relaxing practices. Maybe a bit more sauna than cold plunge.

20:17Maybe don't crank the sauna to 220, you know, I find myself doing them. Like just relax, like enjoy the sauna. And so I think the key to a good life and a productive life is again to learn to master the transition states, understand some of the biology, and to really know yourself, not just your natural tendency, more bulldog -like versus, you know, I don't know, pit bulls always have their tail going, the last spontaneous movement. There are other breeds as well. But also know that on any given day, you may be more or less rested. You might be more or less depleted from life experience and kind of recognize where you're at and figure out what's optimal for that day.

20:56In fact, I forget who the guy is. He's on Instagram and there are a lot of self -help accounts out there. Then there are a lot of self -help accounts out there. But one of the best things that I've heard recently and I try and incorporate it into my life, in fact, it's in my notebook, is when I wake up in the morning, I sort of take stock of where I am in terms of how rested I am. I certainly take stock of what I need to do that day. And then I ask, what's something that I can do to make my life that day and the life of others better? Sometimes that means rest a little bit more. Sometimes that means push a little bit more.

21:31Sometimes that means call relative that you haven't spoken to. But thinking about how to make things better on the time scale of a day for oneself and for others, I think is what's manageable. And it's what's realistic. And it takes this whole concept of protocols and biohacking and prescription drugs and supplements and workouts. And it brings a real world perspective to it. So I think we're living in the time of almost avatars of these different things. Like I think about David Goggins, who I know, well, well, from the perspective of coworker, right? I consider him a friend, but we've never hung out outside of the work context, but I first met David back in 2016.

22:10And I'll tell you, he's always that way, at least when I've interacted with him, he's always been, you know, forward center of mass. He was late in the day on a work, this was a thing in Silicon Valley. He was down in San Jose, Santa Clara, San Jose area. In I believe it was 2016 and we had been working all day in this part of this consult for this company. And in the afternoon, you know, there was like, do we take a break? Do we push? He's like, oh, we push. We're going to do this. And I thought, well, like this guy's intense. And he was changing because he was going to run to the airport, but not run to the airport in an Uber or drive to the airport.

22:46He meant run to the airport. And he did. So, you know, he's forward center of mass. He clearly has the energy or he's found the energy. Can you train that? Can you raise your sort of baseline dopamine level? All right. There are two separate questions. It's a great question. I don't know that we have the answer. I think you can, if you become more economical about whatever dopamine or other neurochemicals you happen to harbor inside. We know there's a lot of genetic and individual variation to these things. You know, there's a joke among parents, right? Like how they come out is how they stay like the mellow kid, the mellow baby that didn't cry much.

23:25The happy baby remains the happy person. You know, there are circumstances that can alter that versus the fussy baby that's always fussy as even as an adult. You know, parents talk this way, but parents say all sorts of things. But, you know, I know people, for instance, like Rick Rubin, for instance, who is very high energy, but very calm. It's part of Rick's magic. He knows how to regulate and control his energy. He has this uncanny capacity to get near things in particular art, music, and to experience them really feel them, but not get absorbed by it, not feel at least to my my knowledge depleted by it.

24:05Some people get kind of absorbed by things and then depleted. It's like the introvert extrovert conversation as well, because two people can be in the same room. And I mean, I consider myself to be a bit of an extrovert, sorry, introvert. Where if I stand in a room for two, three hours doing small talk, I, I, the wild describe it's like my brain feels fried. Whereas my assistant Sophie, it's like you've poured fuel into her. Yeah. I'm similar to you and I have an ex girlfriend who loved parties. She would just get so much energy from parties. And I like certain parties, but I like the small conversation I might have at a party is so that resonates with me.