Most Replayed Moment: Brené Brown on Vulnerability, Self Esteem and The Four Skillsets Of Courage

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1:19On that point about me and vulnerability, is vulnerability important? Because there's a lot of performative vulnerability taking place in the area. For sure. Is it an important thing for my health, happiness, my future to be a vulnerable person?

1:32Brené Brown:Well, let's define it. Vulnerability is the emotion we experience when we are up against uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure. So vulnerability is what I feel. It's the cringe, the awkward, the emotion I feel in times of uncertainty, risk, or emotional exposure. So it was really interesting because I had a hard time helping people understand because we are so raised to believe that vulnerability is weakness that it took a trip to Fort Bragg working with special forces to ask soldiers a question. Give me a single example of courage in your life. One example that you've witnessed or you yourself have done.

2:18Brené Brown:One example of courage that did not require uncertainty, risk, or emotional exposure. No one could answer it. Finally, a young soldier stood up and said three tours. There is no courage without vulnerability. So is vulnerability important? It is if we want to be brave with our lives. If we want to be able to manage ourselves in a way that's values aligned and courageous, we have to be able to reconcile how we feel when we're uncertain, at risk, are exposed. I mean, and really weirdly, the next week after the trip to Fort Bragg, I was with the Seattle Seahawks, the football team, NFL team. Ask the players, give me an example of courage on the field or off that did not require vulnerability.

3:07Brené Brown:They said that it's not possible. There is no courage. Like if you're doing things in your life, in your work, and there's no risk, no uncertainty, and no exposure, then they're not brave. If you know how it's going to end, that is not courage. Courage is the willingness to show up and be all in when you cannot predict the outcome. Courage is saying, I love you first. You want to know what vulnerability is? I love you first. Have you ever said, I love you first?

3:51Brené Brown:uh i'm not sure yeah it's been a while but it's hard it's you know so i need to give context it's been a while since i've been in that situation well you've had to go first yeah yeah i mean there's this great story that i tell about i gave a talk here it was actually in la and afterwards a kid came up to me he's probably 22 or 23 and he said can i tell you a story about your work and how it's really changed my life. And I was like, sure. And a kind of a crowd grew around. And this is like the last time I ever got pinned, like not being able to exit a stage because it was such a traumatic, it wasn't traumatic, but it was like, he said, well, I was dating this woman and I was so crazy about her.

4:32Brené Brown:So I took her to eat to our favorite restaurant and I waited until the dessert came because we love this chocolate volcano. And I ordered it and I said, I love you. And she looked at me and she said, I think you're awesome.

4:50Brené Brown:And I think we should date other people. And then she Ubered home. And so I was like, God damn, this is the worst story I've ever heard. This is not a good story. And he said, so I got in my car and I drove home and the whole way home, I just kept saying to myself over and over, fuck Brene Brown. Fuck Brene Brown. I was like, when does this, when's the turn on the story, you know? And he said, I got home and I walked into my apartment and I pushed the door open. And both my roommates were wired in and they were on their computers. And they looked up and said, dude, what's going on? And he said, I told her I loved her.

5:36Brené Brown:And she told me I was awesome. And one of my roommates looked at me and said, what the fuck were you thinking? That's not how it works. When you are going toward them, they go away. So you're always kind of going away. So they come toward you. And he goes, oh, oh, no. No, I don't want to be that dude. I was daring greatly. And he said both of his roommates just got teary-eyed and went, right on, man, right on. Like, there is no courage without vulnerability. How can you say you're brave if you're not putting yourself out there? So many people have been through things which have made it very, very difficult for them to be vulnerable.

6:25I was speaking to someone yesterday who was cheated on, a bunch of attachment issues in their early childhood. And funnily enough, when I was talking to her about, I was asking her questions about, because I'm very deep person, this carries over into my personal life. I was asking her questions about the things she'd been through whenever else. She just shuts down. And she told me that she, what were the exact words? She said that she finds vulnerability to be a form of intimacy that she tries to stay away from. because she needs to really, really, really trust the person before she opens up. And I think this is a trend you see across a lot of people.

7:04They won't open up enough to form a connection because they've been hurt before by opening up. And it feels too scary to do that. And that results in them being single, alone, unhappy, so on and so on.

7:21Brené Brown:Yeah, I mean, I think what you said was so loaded with so many things. So first of all, there's this very interesting relationship between vulnerability and trust. And how does that work? And people always ask me what comes first, trust or vulnerability. Do I trust you first, then I'm vulnerable? Or am I vulnerable first and then I trust you? And I think it's a very slow stacking. We get to know each other. I share a little bit. I don't share, hey, nice to meet you, Stephen. Here's my darkest, horrible, most painful trauma. You know, because that is actually, that kind of litmus testing is actually a form of armor.

7:58Brené Brown:I'm going to throw something at you that our relationship in no way has been built long enough to hold. You're going to go away, and I'm going to use that as verification that vulnerability is dangerous. Like, that's litmus testing. Let me prove to you that you're not trustworthy. Oh, I see you're backing away. That's what I thought. But I'm backing away because we haven't built a relationship that can bear the weight of this story. Can we start small? Vulnerability, trust, vulnerability, trust, vulnerability, trust. I think in my work, we call that like the smash and grab. Like I'm going to hit you with something really big and then watch you go away and use it as evidence.

8:45Yeah.

8:46Brené Brown:And it takes a really skilled person to say, yeah, I'm really, I'm taking in what you told me. I want to be respectful and honor that. And I don't have a way to file it right now because I don't know you well enough. So I appreciate the share. I mean, we also call it spotlighting. If I had a military-grade spotlight that they use in the wilderness, I work with the military a lot, and I picked it up and put it in your face right here, what would you do physically? That's our reaction to too much vulnerability too fast. Yeah. Like, yeah, I don't know you. So you're talking about the slow stacking of courage and vulnerability and trust.

9:27And then you're also talking about that when we've had a lot of hard things happen to us, I think this is where I really believe the democratization of coaching and therapy, that a lot of times we have to work with

9:42Brené Brown:people. Like we have to get help to be able to open up and take off some of the armor that we put on because sometimes that armor that we put on is freaking survival. I mean, and you want to start adding, you want to start adding variables like race, gender, like, you know, any, anything where there's social systems also at play. That's survival. Like telling me right now in my career, like, hey, you should be vulnerable with your new team and talk about your previous failures. You know, well, of course I could do that. And I would do it. Everybody would clap and they think, man, she's so brave.

10:22Brené Brown:And take the new person who's a young black woman or the new first LGBTQ person on a team and say, hey, tell everybody. Don't tell anybody shit. Develop trust first. develop, see how, trust your own instincts about the accountability of this group to hold themselves accountable for their behavior. Like vulnerability is not more necessary for any of us than anybody else, but certainly more difficult for other, for some people, for sure. And I think what's hard about that, what's so painful, probably the most painful part of my career is that regardless of why the armor is on, without vulnerability, you cannot access the experiences that are the most meaningful in life.

11:14Brené Brown:Love. To love someone is to be vulnerable from the time you wake up to the time you go to bed. You know that. You're in a relationship. To love is to be vulnerable, right? And have you ever buried someone you loved? Like I lost my mom two years ago. Like my kids, it's like having your heart live outside of your body. Like to love is to be vulnerable because it's to risk grief and losing. Belonging is vulnerable. The most vulnerable human emotion, joy. Joy is so vulnerable that when some of us get close to it, we dress rehearse tragedy to prepare for disappointment. Like it's so vulnerable that we don't even let ourselves feel joy because we're so afraid someone's going to rip it away and we're going to get sucker punched by disappointment.

12:05Brené Brown:Yes or no? Like people choose to live disappointed rather than to feel disappointed, risk feeling disappointed and get excited about something. You know, it's like the first time my kids shared with me when they were young. certainly not the way I was raised, but you know, I really, really want to make this team mom. And I said, I want to pause you for a second and tell you how brave it is to talk openly about something you want so much when you don't have control over whether you get it or not. I want, I want it for you because you want it. But regardless of what happens, I admire your courage for wanting something and sharing out loud that you want it.

12:48Brené Brown:Because if you don't get it, I'll know that it was a crushing blow. But that's so great because I'll be here for you when that happens either way. So we, and I'm really, I'm a really, we call it foreboding joy. That joy is so good just waiting for the other shoe to drop. And people who have trauma histories are really like that. Like for me, because the way I was raised, when something good happens, I'm like, oh God, now what's going to happen? Statistically, bad shit's going to roll around any second now. And it's interesting because the group of people that we research, the only group of people that could take that, you know, there's a bodily quiver, right?

13:31Brené Brown:A vulnerability. Have you felt it? Yeah. The only people that can really lean into joy consistently are people who use that vulnerability quiver as a reminder to be grateful, to be able to practice gratitude in that second. So gratitude is a huge enabler of joy. Is that automatic or can one train that? No, it's a training. Oh shit, no. I mean, standing at my front door, watching my 16-year-old daughter walk down the sidewalk with her boyfriend in high school and get in his truck for prom, right? And I'm standing there and I'm like, oh God. And you know, what am I worried about? You know, prom night, like car wreck, right?

14:21Brené Brown:Of course, when I tell the story, the military is always like pregnancy. I'm like, no, no, no, no, car wreck. And so I just remember staying there and she gets in and I'm staying next to Steve and Charlie, my son's, you know, at this time he's 10. And I'm like, I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful. I'm grateful for this moment. I'm grateful that I'm a part of it. I'm grateful that they did the corsage and the boutonniere over here. I'm grateful that I got to help pick out the dress. I'm so grateful. And Charlie goes, looks at Steve, what's wrong with mom? And Steve goes, she's practicing gratitude.

14:55Brené Brown:Let her do it. Otherwise, she's going to get on a crazy train. It's going to be all health. And you know, like, because part of me wants to say, oh God, oh God, like so beautiful and so joyful. And get in your truck and follow them right now. If he's speeding, I want to know about it. If he's not stopping fully to stop sign, follow them until this date is over. You know, that's what I want to do. Because I'm afraid. Because the joy of that moment was just too much for me. Too vulnerable. It appears you've overcome various traits of old Renee Brown. No, I'm overcoming. Overcoming? No, I'm not over.

15:34Brené Brown:I have not overcome. Have you overcome anything? Yes, the belief that I will overcome anything. I have overcome the belief that I will ever arrive. I am grateful for the skills that I have that are new skills that keep me more aligned with the person, the mom, the partner, the leader that I want to be. But I am mindful all the time. I try to stay very mindful that I am scary when I'm scared, that I catastrophize very, very easily. And that's painful for everybody around me. And I don't need to be liked. I just need to be myself. Like, but those are things because I will, I will sit down like two days ago and be like, oh my God, it'd be so freaking easy to be liked here.

16:27Brené Brown:I was like, this will be, this would be a piece of cake. And I'm like, shit, I don't do that anymore. Two days ago. Yeah. Ahead of what? Just with a group of people that I knew what it would take to be liked. And you made the choice to just be myself. Yeah. Why? Because now the person I'm going to betray last is me. Yeah, I hope I see you again, but not that important. some people might find that somewhat demoralizing to know that they they too might never cure parts of themselves that they're desperate to change i think people you know they often come to podcasts like this or read books like yours looking for solution fixes to not liking myself to the way that i react to my emotions they want to fix it because if they can fix it then they can be happy.

17:19Brené Brown:I don't think that's in the consideration set for a very beautiful reason. That if we could fix it and never have to wrestle with it again, we would be so short on grace for other people that we would be tyrants. so you think it creates a form of empathy for others yeah i mean like i'm not gonna i have like really serious boundaries i'm a very boundary person but when i see someone behaving a certain way i was like oh my asshole sees your inner asshole right here i get i get what you're doing i'm not going to tolerate it i'm going to set a boundary around it but i'm not really judging you for it it's just that behavior is not okay right here but you like yourself now

18:19yeah yeah i do i i

18:26Brené Brown:yeah i do i do i can i can i think i can say that pretty i like what i'm becoming and for anyone that doesn't like themselves what what work has had to go into getting to the point where you like what you're becoming?

18:53Brené Brown:I think the hardest is maybe one of the biggest findings of my research over the last 25 years is it's not fear that gets in the way of us being brave with our lives and our work, it's armor. Everybody's afraid. It's okay to be afraid. What's dangerous is the armor that we reach for to self-protect when we're afraid and how that armor moves us away from love, connection, and our values. And so I think the hardest work is for me constantly being aware of what is my armor? What am I, what am I grabbing for when I'm afraid? What am I grabbing for when I want to protect my sense of self-worth, my ego, like, and, and how heavy that shit is.

19:48Brené Brown:You know, at some point I had to wear it because that was survival for me growing up. But this is the big, this is the big

20:02Brené Brown:developmental milestone of middle age, which you are squarely entering, which is kind of when the universe grabs you by the shoulders and pulls you really close and says, I'm not fucking around anymore. I gave you gifts. I gave you gifts. Choosing not to grow into them is not benign. There's a consequence for that. And your armor is getting in the way. You're a grown-ass person now. You have different choices. Let go of what doesn't serve.

20:42Brené Brown:And that is the big milestone, I think, that we have to wrestle with in midlife. what no longer serves that's preventing us from growing into who we want to be. And is that where vulnerability comes into the picture? Oh, for sure. Because all the armor, all the armor is about vulnerability. It requires a huge amount of, I was going to say self-awareness. Yes. That some people just don't, could probably never accomplish. I mean. That's why I think metaphor is helpful. I mean, most of us can understand if you back me into an emotional corner, what are you going to get? Like as a leader, I know my armor, perfectionism, micromanagement.

21:30Brené Brown:I get super intensive. I get recklessly decisive. I know my armor and my team knows my armor. I think my armor in my personal life, especially when it comes to my kids, when I get, when I feel vulnerable, is control, control, control. Take over all the chess pieces. But that's not a good idea. It's not possible. It's just, it's just pretend. That's called anxiety. Like pretending that you can control the chessboard. of other people's lives, your own, much less other people's lives. But I think I do it out of

22:16fear.

22:20Is fear the opposite of courage or is it?

22:24Brené Brown:No, I think the opposite of courage is armor. Armor, okay. I think the opposite of courage is self-protection. To be courageous in this context, whether it's as a leader or in another environment. You talk about these four steps to courage. You talk about it in Strong Ground. Yeah. This was research that emerged like 15 years ago. And I was really, really nervous because I'm a grounded theory researcher. I'm a qualitative researcher. So a grounded theory is only as good as its ability to work new data. So you develop a hypothesis or a theory based on data. And then as you collect more data, does the hypothesis hold?

23:00Brené Brown:And, you know, this, we collected that data pre-pandemic, you know, pre, pre a lot of things. And so I was really worried about the four skill sets of courage, which are identifying and understanding your core values. I would love to do this exercise with you sometime. Two, understanding what gets in the way of you wrestling with vulnerability, kind of owning it and moving through it constructively. Three, how to build trust and how to become, super important, trustworthy to yourself. Self-trust. Because one of the first casualties of failure or disappointment or setback is we lose our ability to trust ourselves, our ability to make good decisions, our ability to take care of ourselves.

23:51Brené Brown:And the last one, which is my favorite, because I've seen it really change in organization, is how to get back up after failure and disappointment, how to reset, how to be, how to manage your own bounce when hard shit happens. So those are the four skill sets of courage. Again, evidence-based, observable, measurable, and teachable. We've taken 165 ,000 people through this work across 45 countries, collected data on all of it. It's so exciting. and it withstood all of the complex changes over the last five years including ai organizationally because this is where we do our work i don't i'm not a therapist or clinician i don't work with like families or individuals i mean i have a therapist but i'm not one um so i think you can develop courage skills this the third point is braving trust yeah and i've heard about your marble jar theory so i got a jar of marbles i saw that um could you explain to me what your marble jar look at how excited you are i know um so this comes you know where where is where where do i get my information ellen's in fourth grade my oldest she comes home from school the front door closes she slides down the door into a heap sobbing oh my god ellen are you okay Are you hurt?