Pregnancy Diet Expert: The Pregnancy Diet That Rewrites DNA! Why Pregnant Moms Are Being Lied To!

12:41Jessie Inchauspé:Yeah. No added sugars. that is so deceptive because this glass of orange juice has no added sugars in it because the sugar was there at the beginning it came from the orange from the original ingredient so on a can of orange juice you can say no added sugar even though it contains 25 grams of sugar which is the maximum limit the WHO recommends for your daily sugar intake so that's a really really bad one another one would be something that says gluten-free or vegan it's not because it's gluten-free reading vegan that it's good for you. But we're being tricked. You know, food manufacturers do everything they can to make you buy their products.

13:19Steven Bartlett:I think I'm in the season of life where I'm thinking a lot about fertility, both my fertility, my fiance's fertility, and how my diet, the things I eat has an impact on that. What is it we need to know about, you know, if we're trying to conceive, if we want to have a family, is it really the case that I need to start thinking about my own fertility in the lead up to putting that sperm into that egg?

13:42Jessie Inchauspé:Yes, both the males and the females need to be thinking about fertility. And nutrition plays a big role and health plays a big role in the quality of your sperm, for example. So a good idea would be to reduce before you want to have a kid, if you're the man, you know, reduce alcohol, exercise more, eat better so that your sperm are high quality. So the sperm turnover is about three months. So if you do like a three month sort of intense, my sperm are getting in shape kind of situation, it's a good idea. For women, it's different. So our eggs are present from before we're born. But the quality of our diet, of our nutrient reserves is going to impact our ability to have kids also.

14:19Jessie Inchauspé:And it's going to impact what our baby gets in the first trimester of pregnancy.

14:23Steven Bartlett:You've just given birth?

14:24Jessie Inchauspé:Eight months ago, yeah. Feels like just last week, but yeah, eight months ago.

14:28Steven Bartlett:And I guess that's somewhat linked to why you've written this new book, which is titled Nine Months That Counts Forever, How Your Pregnancy Diet Shapes Your Baby's Future. You could have written about anything, Jesse, and people would have bought the book, because people are so fascinated by you and the work that you do. Why, of all the subjects you could have written about, was this the subject that meant the most to you to commit a long period of your life to?

14:52Jessie Inchauspé:Because it is a subject where there's such a big gap, Stephen, between what science knows and what parents are told. it felt like there was a just canyon between information in the studies that's been there for decades and what I as a pregnant woman went through and what advice I was given what's available out there to pregnant moms so even though I was pregnant and I was tired I felt I need to write this book because people need to know the power that they have so today science knows that you're not just an oven when you're pregnant have you heard this thing being a bun in the oven? It's an American expression.

15:30Steven Bartlett:I think I've heard it once or twice, yeah.

15:32Jessie Inchauspé:Okay, so often if you're pregnant, people will say, oh, you have a bun in the oven. That's so cute. It's like an expression. And I feel like this is where all of our problems started because it implies so many misleading things. It implies that when you're pregnant, you are an oven, meaning you're just there to provide heat and time. And people often say, just relax, you know, let nature do its thing. So it implies that you're passive, that you have no agency, no power. You're just a vessel of heat and time. That's the first problem. The second problem is that it implies that just like a chocolate cake that you put in the oven, it implies that your baby, the moment the sperm meets the egg, your baby is set in stone.

16:12Jessie Inchauspé:Like if you're making a cake, when you make the brownie and you put it in the oven, the oven is not gonna change the brownie into banana bread. The oven is just cooking the brownie. Well, actually, it's very different with pregnancy. Your baby is not set in stone at conception. What happens during the nine months of pregnancy is co-creating your baby's plan. And depending on what you eat, a different baby will come out. So we've been lying to pregnant moms, telling them they have no agency, they have no power, they should just relax and let nature do its thing. So that's why I wrote this book, because the science is fascinating.

16:50Steven Bartlett:so where are pregnant women being let down in this regard is it that there's just not enough information out there is there's not been enough research out there is it bad advice currently on

16:58Jessie Inchauspé:the internet this is the fault of our food system this is the fault of society this is the fault of the food industry that we were just talking about the marketing messages for everybody today in developed countries we are being fed processed unhealthy foods that are hurting us whether we get diabetes or heart disease, there's a link to food. And today, even pregnant moms are being let down by the food system and are eating a diet without knowing it that's not giving them the nutrients their baby needs. So the moment I became pregnant the first time, I started researching. I went to Google Scholar, and I just opened about a thousand tabs on my computer, which is usually what I do when I'm researching a new topic.

17:35Jessie Inchauspé:And I looked at the big review studies, the meta-analyses of how nutrition during pregnancy impacts our baby's development. I read probably 2 ,000 scientific papers. And I just went deep, deep, deep into the research. And out of it, I saw these four big themes coming out of these four nutrients that most moms are not getting enough of in their diet or too much of in their diet. And I wanted to create this guide to help parents navigate that food system and see easy things they can do in the mom's diet to help their baby's development. So while your baby's DNA is set the moment the sperm meets the egg, with your diet during pregnancy, you're programming that DNA.

18:17Jessie Inchauspé:Have you heard of epigenetics? Yes. Okay. So epigenetics are like these little dimmer switches that sit on your DNA and that say, activate this gene or silence this gene. And so during pregnancy, you're putting these little switches on your baby's DNA. And this is going to have an impact on your baby's development and on his future risk of disease. I'll give you a very simple example. If you have very high glucose levels during pregnancy, scientists have found that your baby's DNA will have epigenetic switches that are programming him towards having a higher vulnerability to develop diabetes himself in his lifetime.

18:56Jessie Inchauspé:So if you have high glucose levels, your baby will be programmed to be more likely to then have high glucose levels himself throughout his life. as a kid, a teenager, and an adult. That's epigenetic programming. And depending on your diet as the mom, you can program your kids differently. But nobody tells moms about this. And that's what I'm trying to change.

19:15Steven Bartlett:What do I need to know as someone that knows very little about pregnancy to really understand the basics of what's going on? What time frame matters? What happens when?

19:24Jessie Inchauspé:So females have a uterus, which is an organ. And the uterus is where the baby develops. And the uterus grows as pregnancy progresses. And then when you give birth, the baby comes out of the uterus and the uterus stays in the mom. So that's important. When conception happens, so you have the sperm meets the egg, that little packet of cells will implant in one of the walls of the uterus and start growing. And pregnancy is divided into three trimesters. It's about nine months. So months one to three is the first trimester. Four, five, six is the second trimester. Seven, eight, nine is the third trimester.

19:58Jessie Inchauspé:And what we're going to talk about today is about nutrition and how your baby's getting the building blocks that he needs to develop in your womb as the female. Because your baby needs to grow from a single cell to 40 trillion cells by the time he's born, right? He grows from like nothing to three or four kilos. And that has to come from somewhere. It doesn't just come out of thin air. All those building blocks, all that matter is coming from you, from what you're eating. What you eat becomes your baby. So your baby is what you eat. In the first trimester, your baby's getting food from this sort of milk that your uterus creates.

20:34Jessie Inchauspé:So it's uterine secretions. And then from the second trimester onwards, something incredible happens.

20:41Steven Bartlett:When's the second trimester?

20:42Jessie Inchauspé:It starts at four months.

20:44Steven Bartlett:Okay.

20:44Jessie Inchauspé:And so for the second and third trimesters, there's another organ that you create inside your uterus. It's called the placenta. and the placenta's job is to bring your baby's bloodstream and your bloodstream as the mom in really close contact and all of a sudden symbiosis is established and your bloodstream and your baby's bloodstream are then going to exchange nutrients and waste. So your baby is going to get all his nutrition directly from your bloodstream. And Stephen, here's a main myth that people believe. They believe that your baby will just get what he needs from you during pregnancy. That's something moms are told.

21:20Jessie Inchauspé:Don't worry, your baby will get what he needs from you. This is a lie. Depending on what you eat, your baby will have different access to important nutrients. So your baby doesn't get what he needs. He gets what's there and what you give him. So let's take a simple example. One of the nutrients that is really important is called choline. Have you heard about choline before?

21:40Steven Bartlett:Is that in eggs?

21:41Jessie Inchauspé:Yes, exactly. It's in the egg yolk. So choline is super important. It forms your baby's brain in the womb. So your baby's brain has these cells that are forming called neurons, which are the ones that process information. And choline is important to creating those neurons. And choline creates the parts of your baby's brain that have to do with memory, learning, and attention. So that egg that you're holding contains about 125 milligrams of choline. And it's an incredible, incredible substance. The thing is, if you don't eat enough choline, your baby's brain is not going to get enough choline. and this can have an impact on the development of your child.

22:20Jessie Inchauspé:So much so that the American Association of Pediatrics says failure to provide choline during this time can result in lifelong brain deficits in the baby. Today, 90 % of moms are not getting enough choline during pregnancy. 90 % of moms are not getting enough choline during pregnancy.

22:39Steven Bartlett:Why?

22:40Jessie Inchauspé:Because nobody is telling them about it. And because today we don't eat very nutritious foods anymore that contain a lot of choline. They're present in eggs. So four eggs a day gives you all the choline that you need. But choline is also present in organ meats like liver. Nobody eats liver anymore. Most of the foods that we eat today, cupcakes, dried fruits, burgers, chips, they don't contain a lot of choline. We need to be eating eggs. This is the simplest way to give enough choline to our baby. And scientists do these animal studies where they deprive moms from choline and they look at the impact on the brain and they see that brain development in the baby stops earlier than it should.

23:19Jessie Inchauspé:And those babies are born with fewer neurons. The amount of choline in your diet during pregnancy is going to be impacting your child's brain development. And nobody's telling moms about this. It's really messed up.

23:32Steven Bartlett:So how many eggs a day do I need to eat while I'm pregnant to get enough choline?

23:36Jessie Inchauspé:Four is the golden number. So here I think we have 28 eggs. So every day during pregnancy, I ate four eggs. So this is the amount of eggs that I ate per week during the nine months of pregnancy. That's a lot of eggs. But as I was doing this, I knew I was giving my baby all the choline that he needed, which is about 450 milligrams per day. And this is not very expensive. 28 eggs is about$7. So for$1 a day, you're getting all the choline that your baby needs to form his brain.

24:07Steven Bartlett:Mothers are often told to avoid liver while they're pregnant. Why is that? You're saying that that's not the correct advice.

24:15Jessie Inchauspé:So liver contains a lot of vitamin A, quite high levels of vitamin A. And there are some older studies that show that liver and high vitamin A can cause issues to the baby. That's why liver is not usually recommended during pregnancy. I would say check with your doctor. Different countries have different thresholds of how much liver is allowed. And honestly, I don't like liver. So I prefer to have eggs. But liver is super, super high in choline. It's quite impressive. You can also take choline supplements. But eggs are the cheapest, easiest source. And for example, in the supplement world, so scientists have done this study at Cornell.

24:49Jessie Inchauspé:They gave one group of moms the bare minimum amount of choline that is recommended. So 450 milligrams in supplements. And then they wondered, well, if a baby's brain needs choline, what happens if he has a lot of choline available? Does his brain form even better? So they gave the other group of mom double the bare minimum recommended amount. And then they brought the kids in during their first year of age for some tests. And the main test that was used is you basically plop the baby on his mom's lap in front of a computer screen, and you flash images on that screen. And you measure how quickly the baby reacts to the new images, so how quickly he moves his eyes.

25:29And the reason they do this is because this test is correlated to adult IQ, meaning the faster a baby reacts to images in the first year of age, the higher his adult IQ.

25:40Jessie Inchauspé:That's the association. And so they were wondering, could we see a difference in the baby's reaction time depending on the mom's choline level in the womb? And they found that the babies who were born to the high choline moms had 10 % faster reaction time to this test.

25:56Steven Bartlett:People talk a lot about breastfeeding as well, whether it's good, bad, indifferent, whether you can breastfeed too much, etc. Obviously, there's lots of practicalities that make breastfeeding quite difficult for a lot of mothers, which we probably should acknowledge. But otherwise, what does the research say about breastfeeding?

26:12Jessie Inchauspé:So the main difference between breast milk and formula is that breast milk is alive. It's alive with information. It's alive with little molecules that are going to continue that DNA programming. Formula is inert. It's not alive. It's not doing that programming. So yes, breastfeeding has advantages for the mom and for the baby. But formula is nutritionally complete. And it's very useful for many moms who are not able or don't want to breastfeed. And if you're using formula, you actually have to check because today not all formulas have choline in them. So check in the ingredients for choline. Also check in the ingredients for omega-3s, which is something that we'll cover in a bit.

26:53Jessie Inchauspé:Look for that. Choline omega-3 is in your formula to make sure that your baby is getting what he needs in those respects.

26:59Steven Bartlett:I was reading about a study in the Pediatric Research Journal that says a 2013 Dutch study of 120 children found that less breastfeeding was linked to a silencing of the gene for leptin, the hormone that signals fullness.

27:13Jessie Inchauspé:So that's a good example of epigenetic programming. So we have this gene that codes for leptin, which is a protein. And leptin is one of the molecules that makes you feel full. So you and I both have this leptin gene, but depending on our epigenetic programming on that gene, you might be producing more of it and I might be producing less of it. So for the same meal, you might feel more full and I might feel less full after that same exact meal. And so in the study, they saw that if you're not breastfed very long, your leptin gene is deactivated. So you feel less full after eating. Now, these are small associations, but they show you that there is a difference here and that potentially breastfeeding could help your baby be more satiated after eating.

27:54Steven Bartlett:What about sugar during pregnancy?

27:57Jessie Inchauspé:So sugar is fascinating. When you eat sugar, your baby is also receiving that sugar because that placenta lets the sugar through. And your baby doesn't need any sugar during pregnancy. He needs a little bit of glucose, which is different. But sugar, as in the very sweet molecule of fructose that is in chocolate, that is in these cupcakes, that is in dried fruit, your baby needs none of it. And the most interesting study on sugar in pregnancy actually came from the UK. So from 1940 to 1953, I don't know if you know this, but in the UK, there was a government-mandated sugar ration, meaning for 13 years, the government controlled how much sugar people had access to.

28:40Jessie Inchauspé:It was during the war, and they were trying to manage resources. So everybody in the UK got 10 sugar cubes per day. That's it. and this is down from what people usually ate before the sugar ration which was about 20 sugar cubes per day so everybody including pregnant moms for 13 years had a capped amount of sugar at the end of the sugar ration after 13 years bam everybody went back up to eating more sugar and so scientists in the early 2000s thought well that's really interesting this means we have two groups of pregnant moms during the sugar ration and right after the sugar ration who had babies develop in their womb either with 40 grams of sugar per day or around 80 grams of sugar per day.

29:21Jessie Inchauspé:And the scientists wondered, can this small difference be making an impact on the baby's long-term health? So they called up 60 ,000 people who were born either just before the ration ended or just after. And they asked them about their health. They were like, do you have diabetes? Do you have heart disease? How are you feeling? What's your weight? And they saw that the babies who were born and who were in the mother's womb during the sugar ration had 15 % lower likelihood of having developed type 2 diabetes in their lifetime. So what does this mean? It means that the amount of sugar during pregnancy can be slightly increasing or decreasing your baby's vulnerability to getting type 2 diabetes later in life.

30:03Jessie Inchauspé:And today, scientists look at the epigenetics of babies who are born to moms with very high glucose levels, and they see that the genes that are related to diabetes are activated. So we have a full picture now of data. We have epigenetics, we have this long-term interesting study, and we now see that the amount of sugar that we eat during pregnancy is subtly programming our baby. So Stephen, I don't know if you know this, but when I was 25, I was on the cusp of prediabetes. I almost had prediabetes when I was 25. I had very high glucose levels. So I had a vulnerability to diabetes. And as I was reading the studies, I was like, oh my god maybe this has something to do with what my mother was eating when she was pregnant with me because pregnancy is this window of outsized influence in somebody's health so I called up my mom I was like mom what did you eat when you were pregnant she's like oh it was the 90s you know I ate very little protein very low fat and in the morning every morning I had a big glass of orange juice and I had special case cereal with about a half a cup of table sugar on top I was like huh, that's pretty interesting.

31:09Jessie Inchauspé:So I wonder, I will never know, I wonder if maybe my vulnerability to diabetes had some roots in the womb.

31:16Steven Bartlett:And the science suggests that it does have a correlation.

31:21Jessie Inchauspé:Absolutely. So the science suggests that the amount of sugar that you're eating during pregnancy is having an impact on your baby's epigenetics. And today, so as I was mentioning, the WHO recommends 25 grams of sugar per day. But most moms are eating 80 grams of sugar per day. 80 grams, which is usually more than what they eat when they're not pregnant. Because of this collective myth that you should eat for two, that pregnancy, you're going to gain weight anyway. So eat as much sugar as you want. Really, we're failing moms because we're not telling them about the incredible opportunity they have by just being a bit mindful of how much sugar they eat, of being able to help their baby be less vulnerable to diabetes.

32:02Steven Bartlett:It's not just diabetes though, is it? No. I was just looking at some of the studies. There's a study here in the JAMA network. It says a Danish study found that children born to mothers with diabetes had a 15 % high risk of psychiatric disorders with schizophrenia risk being 55 % higher, intellectual disability 29 % higher, and a connection to autism and ADHD. A 2025 review of 200 studies, which is 56 million mother-baby pairs, found a 25 % higher risk of autism when mothers had diabetes during pregnancy from the Lancet Diabetes and Endocrinology report. And it's important to note that these studies show correlation, not causation, and a 25 % increase in absolute terms only raises the prevalence from one in 100 to around 1.25 in 100 children.

32:56Steven Bartlett:So there's some nuance to be had on that.

32:57Jessie Inchauspé:There is some nuance, but that association holds very strongly. And as you said, 56 million mom-baby pairs. So across the world, we see that when a mom has diabetes during pregnancy, her baby has a higher risk of psychiatric disorders. And the main theory that could explain this association has to do with the baby's brain. So your baby is forming his brain in the womb. And today, Stephen, you have about 100 billion neurons in your brain, and they are the exact same neurons that you had the day you were born. Neurons never get replaced. So what does this mean? It means that your neurons that you have for life are formed during pregnancy in your mother's uterus.

33:37Jessie Inchauspé:Now, you have these neurons in the baby's brain being formed 250 ,000 per minute, pew, pew, pew, pew, pew, neurons everywhere. And next to the neurons, you have another type of cell. This cell is called the microglia. And it kind of looks like a starfish and it's patrolling the baby's brain. And its job is to make sure that the neurons are forming properly. So what microglia do, they're a cell from the immune system, is they are on the lookout for any neurons that are being damaged or not formed properly. And as soon as they find a neuron that is not ideal. They go over to it and they eat it and they destroy it.

34:11Jessie Inchauspé:So they're pruning the brain and they're looking out for damage and making sure everything develops normally. Now, if the mother has high inflammation levels during pregnancy, and this can be caused by a number of things. It can be caused by high glucose levels. It can be caused by infection. It can be caused by chemicals. High inflammation seems to be making these microglia overactive. Now, all of a sudden, they become a bit deregulated and they start eating and destroying neurons that don't need to be destroyed. They start destroying healthy neurons. And as a result, the brain is forming in a slightly suboptimal fashion.

34:49Jessie Inchauspé:And scientists believe this to be the leading theory behind why we see the association between gestational diabetes, so diabetes of pregnancy, and a higher risk of psychiatric disorders. They believe it has to do with the inflammation levels going on in the baby's brain during pregnancy. And so what does this tell us? This tells us that when we're pregnant, we're influencing the amount of inflammation in our baby's body. And this should be something that we tell women about because if they can have power over their inflammation levels, for example, by reducing their glucose spikes, they could also give their baby a benefit to its brain formation.

35:27Steven Bartlett:Do you think it's useful for women during pregnancy to wear those continuous glucose monitors?

35:32Jessie Inchauspé:I did. I did the whole time. Is it useful? Depends on what you want to do. I think it's really interesting. It helped me a lot. Maybe just for two weeks could be cool. So you can kind of see what's going on and learn about your glucose spikes. And I think one of the issues we see during pregnancy is that your glucose levels are usually tested in the third trimester with the diabetes test. But by that time, like you've already been going along for six months with your glucose levels. I think we should be testing glucose levels much, much earlier, like in the first trimester, because your glucose levels in the first trimester actually can predict very well whether you're going to get gestational diabetes or not.

36:10Jessie Inchauspé:So I think we should maybe put a glucose monitor on all pregnant moms in the first trimester or even pre-pregnancy to help them understand their glucose spikes and show them about these easy tools and habits and hacks that you can put in place to reduce your glucose spikes.

36:24Steven Bartlett:I was reading about a study from Diabetes Care that said they put these continuous glucose coast monitors on 700 women and found that if they did it in the first trimester, they could accurately predict who would develop gestational diabetes at 24 to 28 weeks.

36:39Jessie Inchauspé:Yeah. And so that's really interesting because a lot of people used to think that gestational diabetes, meaning diabetes during pregnancy, is kind of random. It was like, oh, you get it, but we don't know why it's random. Your body's just doing this. And now we have evidence that suggests that actually it's correlated to your glucose levels in the first trimester. Now, in the first trimester, your glucose levels are pretty much the same as when you're not pregnant. As pregnancy progresses, hormones come into play and things start shifting. Glucose spikes get bigger and longer. Fasting glucose levels becomes lower.

37:10Jessie Inchauspé:But that first trimester, your glucose spikes and your glucose levels are similar to pre-pregnancy. This means that essentially your non-pregnant glucose levels can predict whether or not you're gonna get gestational diabetes, which means that gestational diabetes is not random. It actually has roots in what was happening before pregnancy. meaning that if you had high glucose levels before pregnancy, you're more likely to get gestational diabetes. Gestational diabetes could actually just be a symptom of having high glucose levels before pregnancy, but just not knowing about it.

37:42Steven Bartlett:You know, when we say high glucose levels, is that a very individual thing?

37:46Jessie Inchauspé:No.

37:46Steven Bartlett:It's not an individual thing?

37:48Jessie Inchauspé:No, we have very clear cutoffs. So, for example, if you're not pregnant, like you and I, 100 milligrams per deciliter is the cutoff between healthy and prediabetes. So that's fasting glucose level, your glucose level first thing in the morning. If you're pregnant, that changes. Anything above 92 milligrams per deciliter is considered diabetes of pregnancy. So high glucose levels, it's very well segmented. We have these very specific ranges that say normal, too high, much too high.

38:19Steven Bartlett:But if me and you both have a teaspoon of this honey that I have here on the desk, our responses to this honey are going to be completely different, right?

38:28Jessie Inchauspé:Yeah. The glucose spike we experience is going to be different for a bunch of reasons. Our microbiome, our genetics, how much muscle mass we have, how hydrated, how stressed, how tired we are. So maybe you're going to get a spike of like, I don't know, 30 milligrams, and maybe I'll get a 45 milligram spike because I'm tired. Now, what does that mean? It doesn't mean that honey is necessarily better for you than it is for me. It just means that my body today is more or less good at managing this influx of glucose.

38:59Steven Bartlett:Today.

38:59Jessie Inchauspé:Today, yeah. Today. And it also means something very important, which is that if you and I both used a glucose hack. So for example, if you and I both had a chicken breast before the honey, both you and I would have a smaller glucose spike from that same honey. So glucose hacks and ways to reduce your glucose spikes work in everyone. The exact absolute values after eating something, these can vary. But one thing that is true for everybody is that you're fasting glucose. So glucose before you eat anything, that is something we can compare. So if you and I both at 7 a.m. before we eat anything, we had our fasting glucose levels checked, we could compare.

39:40Jessie Inchauspé:We could say, oh, Jesse is very close to prediabetes and Stephen is not very close to prediabetes. Those are very easy numbers to compare. The spikes after eating, these can vary.

39:49Steven Bartlett:So if I put on a little bit more muscle, that means that I'll tolerate glucose better. Yeah, because your muscles are an amazing sink where your body is soaking up glucose from your bloodstream.

40:00Jessie Inchauspé:And that's why we see that even during pregnancy, having high muscle mass is protective against diabetes. So women with higher muscle mass in pregnancy are less likely to have gestational diabetes. Let me give you an example. So we eat this honey. What happens? The honey goes from our mouth to our stomach, to our intestine, and then it goes through our intestinal wall and to our bloodstream. So all these glucose molecules are arriving into our bloodstream. Now, there's two options. Either we stay here and we don't move. In that case, glucose is going to rise in our bloodstream, big glucose spike, and then crash.

40:32Jessie Inchauspé:Or we say, okay, let's go outside and go for a walk right after we eat this honey. We're walking, our muscles are contracting, our leg muscles are contracting, our arm muscles are contracting. and these muscles, as they're contracting, they're looking for energy. And the first place they look is in the bloodstream. They look for glucose in the bloodstream, which is why if you move after you eat glucose, you will get a smaller glucose spike because some of that glucose is being used by your muscles for energy.

40:59Steven Bartlett:I've heard you tell people that they should do some stuff with their calves.

41:02Jessie Inchauspé:Calf raises, yeah. Okay, so put your feet on the ground, Stephen.

41:06Steven Bartlett:Yeah.

41:06Jessie Inchauspé:And just do some calf push-ups, calf raises. So you go up onto the ends of your feet and back down.

41:11Steven Bartlett:Okay, so you got it? I'm lifting my heels.

41:14Jessie Inchauspé:Exactly, lift your heels up and down. So as you do this, there's a muscle in your calf called the soleus muscle. Can you feel it contract? It's your calf muscle.

41:21Steven Bartlett:Yeah.

41:22Jessie Inchauspé:Okay, so this muscle is very good at soaking up glucose from your bloodstream. So easy hack you can do after you eat something sweet is you just do some calf raises at your desk like this. Nobody can notice. Five minutes, and that's going to help reduce the glucose spike of what you just ate.

41:38Steven Bartlett:I mean, five minutes?

41:39Jessie Inchauspé:Yeah, I mean, And you can do five minutes. In the studies, they do sometimes hours of this. But even just one minute is better than nothing to reduce your glucose spike.

41:49Steven Bartlett:I mean, this is probably why a lot of cultures go for a walk after dinner, right? Completely.

41:52Jessie Inchauspé:And a lot of the glucose hacks that I've talked about, they actually mirror a lot of traditions. So for example, the glucose hack of having your vegetables at the beginning of your meal. This is incredibly powerful, pregnancy or not pregnancy, because vegetables contain fiber. And when you have them at the beginning of your meal, they create this protective mesh in your intestine that slows down the glucose molecules from carbs and makes the glucose molecules arrive more slowly into your bloodstream, meaning smaller spike. Now, eating veggies at the beginning of a meal, that's something that we call crudité in France, which means raw veggies at the beginning of your meal.

42:33Steven Bartlett:What other simple exercises do you recommend if I've just eaten something that's high in glucose? that I can do quickly to help bring down my glucose spike, right? That's ultimately what it's going to do, bring down the spike.

42:45Jessie Inchauspé:The best thing to do is to move your body. So get up, find a spot in your apartment that needs to be tidied, find a place you've got to vacuum, find some laundry to do, and do that within 90 minutes after eating. Your muscles are your best ally in reducing your glucose spikes after you've eaten.

43:02Steven Bartlett:So what's going on there? I start eating a cake. I finish eating the cake. how long have I got to get that cake into my muscles?

43:11Jessie Inchauspé:That's a great way to put it. You have about 90 minutes, so an hour and a half.

43:15Steven Bartlett:Okay.

43:16Jessie Inchauspé:That's when the spike is usually going to be at its maximum.

43:19Steven Bartlett:So if I start squatting...

43:20Jessie Inchauspé:Yeah, squats are a great, great tool.

43:22Steven Bartlett:I want to go for a big muscle, right?

43:24Jessie Inchauspé:Yeah, absolutely. So there's some studies showing that if you do, I think it's five squats or 10 squats every five minutes, that is a very, very powerful way to get your duco spike down. Now, you don't always have the space to do some squats, but if you're alone and at home, go for it. That's one of the best ones.

43:41Steven Bartlett:So what's going on in my body there? Is my, I start squatting, I'm working my glutes.

43:45Jessie Inchauspé:Yeah, so your glutes are looking for energy. And the first place they look is in your blood. They're looking for glucose. Okay. Because glucose is the energy that your muscles are using.

43:53Steven Bartlett:Okay. Do you use standing desks? I've really got into it.

43:56Jessie Inchauspé:Yeah, I do. I have a desk at home that moves up and down.

43:59Steven Bartlett:Same.

44:00Jessie Inchauspé:Yeah. But sometimes if I'm tired, I just feel more tired with the standing desk. So I have to have a bit of energy left over. Do you always use a standing desk?

44:06Steven Bartlett:I mean, I kind of oscillate between standing and sitting. But I think especially in like the morning, I find it to be really, really good.

44:13Jessie Inchauspé:You just gave me an idea for a glucose test. I should do the same muffin and afterwards standing desk for 30 minutes or sitting at the desk for 30 minutes. That's a great test. Well, we need to put some Stella glucose monitors on before. But yes, we can do it. We should do it. So I will eat a muffin first thing in the morning, then stand for 30 minutes. And the next day, I will eat a muffin first thing in the morning and then sit for 30 minutes. And I'll send you the spike and we can see. We can see how much glucose is being burned when we're standing at our desk.

44:43Steven Bartlett:Okay, well, we're going to put the results in the episode now. Okay, great. So what you see on the screen, if you're watching, is the results of Jesse standing after having a muffin. And then these results, which you see on the screen, are Jesse sitting after having a muffin.

45:02Jessie Inchauspé:And either we'll see that the spikes are very similar, which means that standing doesn't use much more muscle energy than sitting. Or we will see that standing is using up some of the glucose from my bloodstream and therefore the spike is smaller after the muffin.

45:18Steven Bartlett:On that point of exercise, mothers are given conflicting advice about what to do when they're pregnant. Some people say exercise is not good. Some people say it's great. What's your position from all the research you've done as to whether mothers should be doing exercise during pregnancy?

45:33Jessie Inchauspé:Exercise is incredibly good for your baby's development. And there's one study done in animals, because we can't do many studies in humans when it comes to pregnancy for obvious ethical reasons. But there's this incredible study, which I think is my favorite study in the book. So scientists took two groups of pregnant rats and they gave them the exact same housing conditions, diet, lighting, everything. The only difference is that one group also had these tiny little treadmills that they had to walk on for 30 minutes a day every day during pregnancy. So same exact conditions. The only difference is one group of pregnant rats is moving 30 minutes a day on these tiny treadmills.

46:15Jessie Inchauspé:Then they wait for the babies to be born and they put the babies in these mazes to kind of measure how quickly they're solving the maze. And they also measure the baby's anxiety levels. They found that the babies that were born to the moms who were exercising solved the maze twice as fast and had fewer anxiety symptoms. So they found this strong association between a mom exercising during pregnancy and the outcomes of the baby's brain. And the main theory is that when we exercise, there's this molecule produced in our brain called BDNF. And it's got a complicated name, but what it does is that it helps neuroplasticity.

46:58Jessie Inchauspé:It helps your neurons create new connections. And we know that in humans, when we exercise, that's one of the reasons exercise is good for the brain, because it increases BDNF. and in these pregnant rats they found not only were the mom's BDNFs higher but the baby's BDNF levels inside of the wombs was also higher and they believe that is why they saw this impact on the baby's brain development after birth. So what happens in the womb is really setting up a strong foundation for your baby's brain. It's laying out the basic architecture which is why it's so important to do these simple hacks to give your baby's brain the optimal nutrients that it needs to form properly.

47:42Steven Bartlett:What is, there's a little metaphor over there, those two plant pots. What is the metaphor? Okay, so both of these plants come from identical seeds.

47:55Jessie Inchauspé:The only difference plants is what they were planted in. So one of these plants was planted in basically little rocks and gravel with a tiny bit of soil in it. The other seed was planted in rich fertilized soil. What is this showing us? We intuitively understand that when we're planting a seed, the soil we choose is important, right? We understand that the same seed is not going to lead to the same tree depending on where we plant it. And I think for pregnancy, we've lost this intuition because your baby is a seed. You, as the mother's body, you are the soil and the soil is going to co-create your baby's plan.

48:37Jessie Inchauspé:So when you're pregnant, you have this little baby with his DNA plan, but depending on the nutrients you provide, he's going to grow into a different tree. He's either going to grow in a super optimal tree that has all the nutrients he needed, or he's going to have to adapt to what's available and grow into a slightly different tree. Now the main difference is that humans are not plants. So humans are very resilient. Your baby will probably be okay even if like 90 % of us you don't have enough choline, even if like 75 % of us you don't have enough omega-3s, even if like 70 % of us you don't have enough protein, and even if like most of us you're eating more than the recommended amount of sugar, your baby will probably be fine.

49:20Jessie Inchauspé:But he will be adapting to a slightly suboptimal nutrient environment. So that's what this metaphor is all about. You're co-creating the plan of your baby with your diet during pregnancy. And it's shaping him. And he's adapting and calibrating to what you're giving him.

49:38Steven Bartlett:Steve, what are you doing? Just making myself a delicious coffee. From the freezer? From the freezer? Have you not heard about Conteer?

49:45Jessie Inchauspé:No. Oh my gosh, this is going to change your life.

49:49Steven Bartlett:A couple of months ago, the founder of this business called Matt sent a big shipment of this coffee to our office in London. This coffee is like nothing you've ever seen before. What most people don't know is that the processing of coffee takes out a lot of the taste. So what they do is they flash freeze it at the optimal moment when it's most tasty. And they send you in the post, the coffee, in these little frozen ice cubes. Now, Matt sent a big shipment to my office. I moved it to the kitchen. I said to the team, knock yourselves out. Give this a try. And then I saw so many messages in our Slack channel of people going, oh my God, what the hell is that?

50:22Steven Bartlett:It's so delicious. All I have to do is pop it out in the morning, using the little button on the back of this thing. I pour my hot water in and I mix it. And that is done. You can get$30 off your first order of Cometeer coffee if you go to cometeer.com slash Stephen. And it won't be available for long. So get that discount while you can. I am not going to be a pregnant mother in my life, but I am going to have a fiancé hopefully at some point who is a pregnant mother. So I would really like to know how I can help as a partner but also I'm sure she's going to listen to this. So what she can do to make sure that the soil in which my baby grows is optimal.

51:02Steven Bartlett:We've talked about a few of the things so far like choline and we've also talked about sugar and glucose levels throughout pregnancy to avoid gestational diabetes. We've talked about exercise as well. What about alcohol?

51:14Jessie Inchauspé:Not a good idea. Because as I explained, your bloodstream and your baby's bloodstream are basically connected. So when you drink alcohol during pregnancy, your blood alcohol level rises, and then your baby's blood alcohol level in your uterus also rises. There's no filter protecting your baby from alcohol. So when you have a glass of wine, your baby's also having a glass of wine in the womb. And we know that alcohol is not good for our brains, and this also goes for babies. So you wouldn't put red wine in your baby's bottle after birth and give him red wine to drink. But that's kind of what's going on when you're drinking alcohol when you're pregnant.

51:54Jessie Inchauspé:And there's been a lot of stuff online about, oh, alcohol during pregnancy is fine in small quantities. I think when you understand how alcohol is toxic to the brain biologically, it makes no sense to sell pregnant moms that a little bit of alcohol is okay. It's best if you can't avoid alcohol entirely.

52:12Steven Bartlett:So complete abstinence.

52:13Jessie Inchauspé:Yeah.

52:13Steven Bartlett:There was actually a study that came out in February last year, which is quite recent, from the University of Melbourne, where they used high resolution 3D imaging to reveal that even low doses of alcohol cause facial morphing, consistent changes in the shape of the eyes and nose at 12 months, persisting up to age eight, and weaker connections in the right anterior cingulate part of the brain, the region critical for emotional regulation and impulse control, even if the mother drank only occasionally. which is very surprising. Because I think for a long time, we've always thought that heavy consumption of alcohol was a problem.

52:55Jessie Inchauspé:And we know that, yeah.

52:56Steven Bartlett:But even low doses are suboptimal.

52:58Jessie Inchauspé:It kind of goes for all adults, right? We thought for a long time that one glass of wine per day was good for the heart. Now we understand that the ideal amount of alcohol is zero. Like there's no benefit to alcohol. Now, is that to say that one glass of wine during pregnancy is going to, you know, indelibly impact your baby's brain? Probably not. But if you can't avoid it, this is the best time to avoid it entirely.

53:22Steven Bartlett:What about when you're breastfeeding?

53:24Jessie Inchauspé:Oh, well, you have much more leeway then because the amount of alcohol in your breast milk mirrors the amount of alcohol in your bloodstream. So, for example, if you have a glass of wine, two and a half to three hours later, you have pretty much no more alcohol in your bloodstream, which means your breast milk is also pretty much devoid of alcohol. So if you time it right, you're going to be able to have a glass of wine without it actually going into your breast milk. But it's all about timing.

53:50Steven Bartlett:Caffeine?

53:51Jessie Inchauspé:The recommendation is to stay under two cups of coffee per day during pregnancy. It's not a neurotoxin like alcohol, right? But caffeine does go to your baby's bloodstream. And some studies show that babies are more active in the womb after the mother drinks caffeine. And it has no benefit. it. So listen, you do what you can. I reduced a little bit my caffeine intake. Instead of having like two flat whites, I had maybe half a flat white or a decaf flat white when I could. But some days I just really wanted a coffee. So I had a coffee.

54:20Steven Bartlett:Have they ever done any studies on caffeine and pregnancy?

54:24Jessie Inchauspé:Well, we can't do any studies on caffeine and pregnancy in humans. It's unethical to test anything in pregnant moms. We have associations and the associations don't show much difference. Like we don't have studies that show caffeine intake in moms leads to this kind of bad outcome in the kids. It seems pretty neutral at low doses. If you have really high doses of caffeine, there is an impact on the baby's, more associative impact on the baby's temperament. But for one or two cups a day, there's no impact that we find.

54:52Steven Bartlett:And they've done animal studies?

54:53Jessie Inchauspé:Yeah, they've done animal studies. Low doses also fine. Very high doses, we start to see changes in the baby's behavior.

54:58Steven Bartlett:You talk about this in the book in certain animal studies, they show during pregnancy leads to smaller offspring, altered heart development, and delayed brain growth. But you explain that we don't have direct clinical trial data on the long-term impact of caffeine during human pregnancy.

55:12Jessie Inchauspé:And also those studies are very high doses of caffeine.

55:14Steven Bartlett:Okay. And the World Health Organization recommends that women who consume more than 300 milligrams of coffee a day, which is roughly three cups, reduce their daily intake during pregnancy.

55:23Jessie Inchauspé:Yeah. So probably one cup a day is not harming your baby.

55:27Steven Bartlett:Fermented foods in the gut, what about that? What should I be thinking about that?

55:30Jessie Inchauspé:Well, this is very early research, but showing that potentially if a mother has fermented food during pregnancy, it's also seeding her baby's gut microbiome. But this is very, very early stuff. But if you can include some kefir or some sauerkraut during pregnancy, it's helpful.

55:47Steven Bartlett:What about bread? Do you think much about bread?

55:49Jessie Inchauspé:Do I think much about bread? I mean, I'm French, so I think about bread all the time.

55:54Steven Bartlett:In terms of your recommendations on the type of bread one should be eating?

55:58Jessie Inchauspé:Well, bread is interesting because bread is a carb that contains mostly glucose. And we know that in the third trimester of pregnancy, your baby actually needs more glucose because he's developing and he also needs energy. Your baby needs about 70 grams of glucose per day at the very end of pregnancy. So as a pregnant mom, you should be eating 70 grams of glucose more than you usually do at the end of pregnancy. For the first and second trimesters, you don't need to be eating much more glucose. So you could have that via bread. You could have that via rice, for example. So 70 grams of glucose is about three slices of bread or a cup and a half of rice.

56:36Jessie Inchauspé:In terms of the type of bread you should be eating, it's always better for your glucose levels to have bread that is full of seeds. But to be honest, there's not a huge difference between like sprouted grain bread versus white bread. It's all just glucose.

56:50Steven Bartlett:Because there is a, I guess there's a risk that mothers might get a little bit scared of having sugary foods during pregnancy. And then you've just said the baby does need glucose.

57:00Jessie Inchauspé:Yeah. So there's a difference. So glucose is present in carbs and starches, meaning bread, pasta, rice, potatoes, oats. So starches contain glucose, but starches are different to sugars. So on this plate, we only have sugars. These are the sweet foods that contain glucose, but also another molecule that makes them sweet called fructose. Your baby needs no fructose during pregnancy ever. So your baby does not need any sugar from dessert, from chocolate, from muffins, from cupcakes. Your baby needs none of this. But your baby does need glucose, which is healthier to get from starches like bread, pasta, rice, potatoes.

57:42Steven Bartlett:What about the ketogenic diet while you're pregnant?

57:45Jessie Inchauspé:I don't think there's enough evidence to tell us whether it's okay or not. It's very early. It's quite rare. And it seems that since your baby does need glucose during pregnancy, it's just easier to eat glucose and to eat starches when you're pregnant. And whole fruit is also a good way of getting the glucose that you need because thanks to the fiber in the water, the amount of fructose in the fruit is not leading to such a big fructose spike.

58:11Steven Bartlett:There's a study on the G1D Foundation that basically says for 99 % of pregnancies, a strict ketogenic diet is considered dangerous. Doctors instead recommend a low glycemic index diet. And low glycemic diets mean a diet with smaller glucose spikes.

58:26Jessie Inchauspé:And this is really helpful for people with gestational diabetes. It helps them manage their spikes and reduce the need for medication. But also for any pregnant mom, it's important to think about your glucose spikes. Because when you have a glucose spike, your baby has a glucose spike. and glucose spikes are not good news. It's better to give your baby slow rolling hills of glucose and not these big spikes that can lead to more inflammation. And as we talked about, more inflammation can impact the baby's brain development.

58:53Steven Bartlett:Do you recommend that mothers take certain supplements? Did you take supplements throughout your pregnancy?

58:58Jessie Inchauspé:Yeah, I took omega-3s. And the reason is I took omega-3 supplements is because omega-3s also form the baby's brain and they come from algae in the ocean and fish. Now, omega-3s, and in particular, one omega-3 called DHA, it helps your baby's neurons connect with each other. And this is really important. And in animal studies, when scientists restrict how much DHA a mother has access to, they see measurable impact on the baby's brain. They see brains that are less efficient. They see babies who find the exit of mazes with much more time. There's an impact on the brain development. Now, the easiest way to get enough DHA is to eat fish or to eat sardines that we have here.

59:41Jessie Inchauspé:So the recommendation is fatty fish twice a week. I would say fatty fish three times a week if you can. And this is also, it's amazing because it's very cheap. So these three cans of sardines are your three servings of fish per week. This gives you all the omega-3s your baby needs. And this costs about in total like six,$7. So for six,$7 per week and for another$7 of eggs per week, you're getting all the choline and all the omega-3s your baby needs yeah you're opening it and you're gonna eat it okay you know you want to know how i have them how okay you're gonna eat it yeah go for it so i open the can i put it in a bowl i put mustard in it i put sea salt a little bit of feta some herbs and i make this sort of nice little paste and then i toast a piece of bread and I put it on top of the bread and I have like a nice little sardine mash on my bread.

1:00:41Steven Bartlett:It is quite nice.

1:00:42Jessie Inchauspé:Yeah. And it's really good for you. Lots of omega-3s. And so for omega-3s, I also supplemented with additional omega-3s because I think the recommendation of fatty fish two or three times a day is lacking. Most moms don't have enough omega-3s in their body to give their baby everything that he needs. So I did this three times a week plus two grams of DHA supplement per day.

1:01:05Steven Bartlett:What else was in your supplement stack?

1:01:07Jessie Inchauspé:Then in the third trimester, I took iron because my iron levels were very low. This often happens during pregnancy, even though I was eating a lot of meat because your baby is pulling a lot of iron from you. And then I had a sort of normal prenatal supplement, but I made sure it had choline in it. And I made sure it had a type of folic acid called methylated folate, which is better absorbed. And And folate is very important to prevent miscarriage.

1:01:31Steven Bartlett:You talked about your first pregnancy and you said, we'll talk about that later. You went through miscarriage?

1:01:39Jessie Inchauspé:Yes, correct. So I got pregnant the first time and I thought everything would be totally fine. But I found out at the three-month scan that the embryo had stopped developing. I had what's called a silent miscarriage. So usually when you miscarry, you start to lose blood. you have cramps, you know something's wrong. I had a silent miscarriage, which is more rare, meaning the embryo stopped developing, the embryo was dead, my body did not expulse it. So I found out that I had lost the pregnancy at the scan at the doctor's office. And I found out that I had been walking around for a month with an embryo that had stopped developing, and I had no idea.

1:02:22Jessie Inchauspé:I thought I was still pregnant.

1:02:24Steven Bartlett:what is what is that like for someone like me that has never experienced um such news what are the range of emotions and thoughts um that occur when you get news like that

1:02:40Jessie Inchauspé:listen for me it was so devastating it was so so difficult i didn't i didn't want to believe it i was screaming i remember like falling to the floor in my living room and saying to whatever god or the universe, like that I wanted my baby back. I was not okay. It was very, very difficult. I felt a lot of anger. I felt a lot of despair. I felt a sense of injustice, like why me? I felt like I had done everything right. Like I was eating the choline. I was taking the right supplements. You know, I was not like smoking crack and I still had a miscarriage and I didn't know this happened. I didn't have it in my consciousness that it could happen to me.

1:03:22Jessie Inchauspé:So I felt from very, very high. It was probably one of the most difficult experiences of my life.

1:03:26Steven Bartlett:Is this more common?

1:03:28Jessie Inchauspé:One in five pregnancies and in miscarriage.

1:03:31Steven Bartlett:That's really high. Like way higher than I thought it was.

1:03:34Jessie Inchauspé:Yeah.

1:03:35Steven Bartlett:And is it usually in the...

1:03:37Jessie Inchauspé:In the first trimester.

1:03:38Steven Bartlett:In the first trimester.

1:03:39Jessie Inchauspé:But it can happen later also. So, yeah, and I felt so isolated and I didn't feel like people around me knew how to handle it. Because it's kind of taboo. And then when I miscarried, I started talking to people about it. And I found out that so many people around me had gone through it but had never told me about it.

1:04:00Steven Bartlett:When was your first pregnancy?

1:04:03Jessie Inchauspé:So I got pregnant in February 2024. so the miscarriage was in spring 2024 and then I got pregnant again in August 2025 no 2024 and my son was born in May 2025 so I got pregnant quite quickly afterwards but it was difficult because I was still carrying the grief of the miscarriage so I had a very anxious pregnancy I was very anxious the whole time that something bad would happen again that I would miscarry again and not know about it. It was very difficult.

1:04:43Hmm.

1:04:45Jessie Inchauspé:It's a trial of the heart, man.

1:04:50Steven Bartlett:It's, yeah, the number's way higher than I expected. Just much higher than I expected. And it's scary. Scary to think about.

1:04:56Jessie Inchauspé:Yeah. And that's why people usually wait until the third month mark to tell their friends and family that they're pregnant. And for some reason, I had no conception of that. So the moment I got that first pregnancy test, I told everybody. so it made it quite complicated to have to announce the miscarriage to like 50 people but at the same time I felt less alone than I would have felt if nobody knew I was pregnant in the first place but yeah it was very very challenging and it's more common than we think and it happens to more people than we know about is there anything you wish you knew

1:05:32Steven Bartlett:earlier in life about I mean we've talked about many of the things specifically around diet and you know, in pregnancy. But is there anything else you wish someone had said to you as a woman earlier that you didn't hear?

1:05:45Jessie Inchauspé:Yeah, I think I wish my mom had told me about her miscarriages. She had not. Oh, really? Until I miscarried. Yep. I wish my grandmother had told me. I did not know. I wish people had told me more about their experiences because that way I would have understood that it happens to a lot of people. And maybe I would have been more prepared and maybe it would have made the experience a little bit less painful. instead of feeling so, so isolated, or at least I would have maybe been a bit more cautious.

1:06:14Steven Bartlett:Because you said one of the feelings and emotions you had was, why did this happen to me?

1:06:18Jessie Inchauspé:Yes. I was like, why me? Why me? And then I realized it happens to many people, and there's not necessarily a reason. It's nothing you've done. It can be just a chromosomal abnormality and the embryo just can't develop anymore. It can be something we don't understand yet.

1:06:32Steven Bartlett:It's hard, isn't it, getting pregnant?

1:06:34Jessie Inchauspé:Yeah.

1:06:34Steven Bartlett:It's hard. I don't know what lie I was living under, but I just assumed that getting pregnant was have sex, unprotected.

1:06:41Jessie Inchauspé:I know, because your whole life you're told, do all these things to not get pregnant because it might happen without you expecting it. And then when you try to get pregnant, you realize, oh, it's not at all as easy as I thought it was. It's a lot. And I was lucky I got pregnant after, you know, two, three cycles both times. So that's very, very quick. But for some of my friends, it's taken them years to conceive.

1:07:03Steven Bartlett:How has becoming a mother changed you?

1:07:07Jessie Inchauspé:um it's made me happier I feel like my baseline happiness is higher I don't have I used to have this like 10 % kind of melancholy or spleen or sort of like oh maybe my life could be better if I did x or y or like questioning you know do I need more how do I how do I find happiness and that's gone like with my son that has that has been filled and I didn't expect it to be filled so that's been amazing. And it's made me very efficient. Because now when I have 42 minutes, I use those 42 minutes. Like, I cannot imagine how much time I used to have. Like, what did I used to do? And I thought I was busy.

1:07:46Jessie Inchauspé:Now I'm really busy. It's so funny to look back at my life before and what I used to think and realize that I was completely wrong. I was so wrong. I thought I was busy and I thought I was tired. I wasn't. Now I am.

1:08:02Steven Bartlett:You feel very busy, right? I feel so busy. And you feel tired. I do. I do sometimes ask myself, you know, because again, I'm in that season of life. I do like, where am I going to get the, where's the time going to come from?

1:08:13Jessie Inchauspé:You just prioritize. So many things you just delegate where you don't do anymore. And you find the time because your baby is the most important thing. and I think I've become better at my work because I'm more efficient and I thought I was pretty efficient before but now I'm like superhuman on that point of parenting and pregnancy and

1:08:33Steven Bartlett:everything we've been talking about you said that you spoke to your mother about the diet she had and her lifestyle when she was growing you inside her if your parents did have a suboptimal lifestyle and diet. This is a bit of a strange question to ask, but is there something that I can do now as an adult to reverse that?

1:08:55Jessie Inchauspé:Totally. Well, first of all, my mom was eating a lot of sugar, but it wasn't her fault. Like culture around her was telling her fat is bad, eat low fat foods. Like she was just a product of her time. Like we all are. So our diet today is just a function of what food marketing is going on. So again, it's not our fault. We're just kind of swimming in this sea of the food industry and marketing. We do the best we can. Pregnancy is important. It has an outsized effect on our vulnerability to disease, but it's not everything. So I told you at 25, I was on the cusp of prediabetes. Well, I implemented the glucose hacks.

1:09:31Jessie Inchauspé:I found all the science and I never got prediabetes. So you're probably going to be fine. It's more of the difference between like, so I have two friends. I have Gabriel and Nicholas, and they both work out the same and eat the same. One of them builds muscle really easily and has a lot of muscle mass. The other one doesn't. They're not equal. However, it doesn't mean that they both can't build muscle. It might just be a little bit more difficult for one than for the other. Same thing with diabetes. One person may get diabetes with the same diet as another person who doesn't get it. Well, when you apply things, when you change your diet, you can change the course of your life.

1:10:05Jessie Inchauspé:You can change what diseases you face, but you might be more or less vulnerable. So we always have agency. We always have power, no matter our age, no matter where we are in life, to take back control.

1:10:18Steven Bartlett:Cravings. Cravings are where it all begins. You know, you can know everything.

1:10:23Jessie Inchauspé:Wait, say more about that. What do you mean?

1:10:24Steven Bartlett:You can have all the information. I'm sure that there's people that listen to this podcast, including me, who know a lot about this stuff. But it doesn't necessarily mean that you have the control to take action. because when your brain starts saying, go on, eat that thing, go on, it'll be so tasty. And you know what? You can do your calf raises after it. It'll be fine. Like that voice in your head that talks you into things that you don't really want to do. And then 10 minutes later, you feel really guilty that you did it. I'm just wondering if you think much about the psychology of being in the things I can do upstream to either fend off the cravings or to have better agency and control over the cravings.

1:11:00Jessie Inchauspé:So let's talk about that voice because that voice comes in two flavors. for some the voice is that cookie looks really really good chocolate chip with sea salt that looks tasty i'm going to probably buy it after the end of this meeting that is the voice of pleasure and enjoyment there's another voice that might be in your brain which is like oh my god i need sugar right now what's in the kitchen i'm going to open the cupboards whatever there is oh this weird old cookie i need to have it right now i need sugar otherwise i'm not going to feel good those are two very different voices that second voice is a voice of control and of almost being like a victim to sugar addiction.

1:11:34Jessie Inchauspé:I want to help people go from the sugar addiction voice to the enjoyment voice, because I think it's fine to have cravings or to want to eat something delicious. I just want to make sure people are not controlled by that voice. Do you see what I mean? I want it to be something you enjoy, not something you are victim to. So how do we separate these two things out? We need to balance our glucose levels so that that voice comes from a place of happiness and not a place of a glucose crash that is making you feel controlled by a biological impulse that is stronger than you. So protein in the morning, a savory breakfast, super, super important.

1:12:08Jessie Inchauspé:Then a veggie starter before your lunch and your dinner when you can. Avoiding sugar on an empty stomach to not kick off a roller coaster of blood sugar ups and downs that's going to make you crave more and more of this sweet stuff. But the voice that you just mentioned, which is like, oh, that looks really good. I'm going to do some calf raises afterwards. I think that's fine. To me, that doesn't sound like you're being controlled by it it sounds like you kind of want to eat delicious stuff but i regret it 10 minutes after why because i think you know especially if it's at like 10 p.m

1:12:39Steven Bartlett:yeah because then it messes up your sleep it messes up my next day yeah and i what the hell

1:12:44Jessie Inchauspé:did i do that i knew i shouldn't eat it yeah but the craving was too strong and listen sometimes that's the situation we're in i do that too sometimes sometimes it is 11 p.m i'm exhausted I know my son's probably going to wake up at 4 a.m., but I want that cookie. And I just have it. Maybe I have some vinegar or some anti-spike before, but it's okay to give in to these things. I don't think we have to feel guilty about them. Like, that's just life. Sometimes we can't do the glucose hacks, and sometimes we're tired and the cookie looks good, so eat the cookie.

1:13:09Steven Bartlett:But it annoys me because I then feel shit the next day. And I go, well, you know, was it worth it? Absolutely not. Objectively, absolutely not. Yeah. So maybe if you had had that cookie after some almonds, or if after the cookie,

1:13:22Jessie Inchauspé:you could do some laundry or move around a little bit to reduce the spike, maybe you could help with your deep sleep during that night. But sometimes you can't.

1:13:29Steven Bartlett:I think as well, the subject of sleep and glucose is one we don't talk about enough, because some people really struggle with their sleep. And I've just noticed that when I'm in a heavy travel period, and I'm flying and waking up early at 4am, fly to LA, fly Miami, go to guitar, wherever, my ability to control cravings is significantly reduced. And weirdly, I noticed that when I wake up at, say I had, I don't know, I had dinner at 9pm the night before. If I'm woken up at like 3 or 4am, I wake up really hungry.

1:14:03Jessie Inchauspé:Interesting. Have you worn a glucose monitor to see if you're not crashing in the middle of the night?

1:14:07Steven Bartlett:No. But I've always been so curious as to why that is, because I know that if I'd slept for four hours more, I would have been like today where the first thing I've eaten today, and it's

1:14:16Jessie Inchauspé:what 2pm is that sardine, because I just wasn't hungry this morning.

1:14:20Steven Bartlett:But if I'd woken up early, I mean, I've looked a little bit into it. I have a question. Do you think it's

1:14:25Jessie Inchauspé:the time you wake up that is causing you to be more or less hungry? Or it's the dinner you had the night before that is causing a crash that is causing you to wake up? Like, what's the chicken? What's the egg? Because it sounds to me like maybe at 3am, if you're having a glucose crash, because you had a big carb-heavy dinner, then it's your body waking you up and making you feel very hungry. For me, it's kind of similar. Like in the morning, if I feel extremely hungry, it's usually because I went to bed and I had just had a bunch of carbs before bed.

1:14:51Steven Bartlett:Well, thanks to the ability to do very quick research, I now know the answer, or at least a solid hypothesis. And the leading answer as to why when you're sleep deprived, you end up eating worse is because of the hormone imbalance of leptin and ghrelin. Sleep deprivation directly alters the hunger hormones produced in your gut and fat cells. If ghrelin increases, known as the hunger hormone, ghrelin signals the brain that it's time to eat. Studies from Stanford University show sleeping for only five hours increases ghrelin by approximately 15%. Leptin decreases. The satiety hormone tells your brain you are full.

1:15:24Steven Bartlett:The same sleep loss decreases leptin by approximately 15%. And therefore the result is that your brain receives a loud, I am starving signal and a very weak, I'm full signal simultaneously.

1:15:35Jessie Inchauspé:And leptin is the hormone we talked about at the beginning, which when you're breastfed as a baby, you're epigenetically making more leptin and this setting can stay with you for life. So it's possible that also there's some stuff going on in early life that makes you more or less hungry.

1:15:50Steven Bartlett:I need to speak to my mom. You know, every once in a while, you come across a product that has such a huge impact on your life that you'd probably describe it as a game changer. And I would say for about 35 to 40 % of my team, they would currently describe this product that I have in front of me called Ketone IQ which you can get at ketone.com as a game changer but the reason I became a co-owner of this company and the reason why they now are a sponsor of this podcast is because one day when I came to work there was a box of this stuff sat on my desk I had no idea what it was Lily and my team says that this company have been in touch so I went upstairs tried it and quite frankly the rest is history in terms of my focus, my energy levels, how I feel, how I work, how productive I am, game changer.

1:16:37Steven Bartlett:So if you want to give it a try, visit ketone.com slash steven for 30 % off. You'll also get a free gift with your second shipment. And now you can find Ketone IQ at Target stores across the United States, where your first shot is completely free of charge. For the first 10 years that I was a founder, I didn't prioritize getting a good night's sleep at all. But over time, I started to realize that it was the key metric that influenced everything in my life. My mood, my focus, my ability to show up and to think clearly and to lead well. So now, with my lifestyle being pretty crazy, traveling across time zones, working late, training late, I still fight to protect my sleep, which sometimes means starting the day a little bit later.

1:17:12Steven Bartlett:It was my WHOOP that helped me to make this connection. They are one of my sponsors for the show. And for the last four years, every day, my WHOOP has given me insights into my sleep, my recovery, the strain I'm taking on, and more broadly, how my daily behaviors influence my overall holistic health. It's the difference between guessing and knowing why I might be feeling the way that I feel. Sometimes it will nudge me. Sometimes it will get me to slow down. Sometimes it pushes me to go even harder. But all the time, it provides me with data that gives me a deeper understanding of myself. And without it, it'd be hard to optimize how I live and perform it.

1:17:42Steven Bartlett:Right now, you can get one month free through my link at join.whoop.com slash CEO.

1:17:49Jessie Inchauspé:One month free, join.whoop.com slash CEO.

1:17:53Steven Bartlett:make sure you keep what i'm about to say to yourself i'm inviting 10 000 of you to come even deeper into the diary of a ceo welcome to my inner circle this is a brand new private community that i'm launching to the world we have so many incredible things that happen that you are never shown we have the briefs that are on my ipad when i'm recording the conversation we have clips we've never released we have behind the scenes conversations with the guests and also the episodes that we've never ever released and so much more in the circle you'll have direct access to me you can tell us what you want this show to be who you want us to interview and the types of conversations you would love us to have but remember for now we're only inviting the first 10 000 people that join before it closes so if you want to join our private closed community head to the link in the description below or go to doaccircle.com i will speak to you there

1:18:47Steven Bartlett:What is the most important thing we haven't talked about as it relates to nine months that count forever, your new book, that we should have talked about?

1:18:55Jessie Inchauspé:I think protein.

1:18:57Steven Bartlett:Protein.

1:18:57Jessie Inchauspé:Yeah. By the time your baby's born, he is about 50 % protein if you exclude water. So protein is not just for your muscles. Protein forms your immune system, your skin, your organs, many, many tissues, many, many signaling molecules in your body. So when you're pregnant, you need to eat more protein to give more protein to your baby. And animal studies show something fascinating, Stephen. They show that when a mom is slightly protein restricted, meaning she's eating a bit less protein than she needs to, there's a little epigenetic switch happening in the baby that says, dear baby, keep your muscles small because there's not a lot of protein in the world you're about to be born into.

1:19:38Jessie Inchauspé:So what we're eating during pregnancy is in essence sending a little postcard to our baby in our uterus, telling him what kind of nutrients will be available in the world that he's about to be born into. And so these animal studies suggest that if you have a low-protein diet, your baby will be programmed to stay smaller and have smaller muscle mass throughout his life. And the thing is, Stephen, you need a lot of protein when you're pregnant because your baby is very protein-hungry. So here I have four chicken breasts, which is basically the amount of protein that I needed to eat every single day in the third trimester of pregnancy.

1:20:15Steven Bartlett:Day?

1:20:15Jessie Inchauspé:Yeah, per day. Per day. It's a lot. So I would have four eggs in the morning. That's about 30 grams of protein. And then I would have to have three good servings of protein, represented by the three chicken breasts here. So I would have fish at lunch, probably a meat or a chicken at dinner, and then a high-protein snack. For example, Greek yogurt. I would add some whey protein powder in there to make sure I was having enough protein. So you need about 1.6 grams of protein per kilo of body weight per day in the third trimester of pregnancy. And this is where most of us fall short because nobody's telling moms they need to eat more protein.

1:20:51Jessie Inchauspé:So the result is that moms lose their muscle mass because the muscles are being broken down to give protein to the baby. But there's a limit to it. Like you can't, your muscle mass cannot compensate for a low protein diet. And this is why we see across all women, all studies, low protein diets lead to smaller babies and potentially this epigenetic programming of staying smaller throughout life. So protein is key.

1:21:18Steven Bartlett:On that subject of muscle loss, have you thought much about the impact of GLP-1s, these sort of fat loss drugs during pregnancy?

1:21:25Jessie Inchauspé:Oh, wow. I don't think they're recommended during pregnancy. I hope not because they prevent you from feeling your hunger hormones. They prevent you from feeling hungry. So pregnancy would be a very dangerous time to take these. Because during pregnancy, you need to eat a little bit more in terms of quantity and calories, but also you need to eat differently. So you need to learn about the protein, the choline, the omega-3s. And I think it would be quite dangerous to take a GLP-1 during pregnancy.

1:21:53Steven Bartlett:Do you know the vinegar thing you talked about to me before, where you said you have vinegar before eating something that's high in glucose? Yeah. Do you recommend that for mothers as well?

1:22:03Jessie Inchauspé:You can, but if you're going to do that, you need to make sure the vinegar is pasteurized because you want to make sure that during pregnancy, people are like, only eat pasteurized foods because you want to prevent any food contamination. So make sure you look on the back of the vinegar bottle and make sure it's pasteurized. Apple cider vinegar is usually not pasteurized. So do I recommend it? I think it's okay to do. Like vinegar is fine during pregnancy, especially if you really want like a cookie or a muffin. It could be helpful to reduce the glucose spike. But truly, pregnancy is kind of the moment where you need to be eating as little sugar as possible because it's impacting your baby's development.

1:22:40So ideally, you don't have to use the vinegar hack.

1:22:45Steven Bartlett:You know, I've often seen people talk about like an obesity gene and stuff and ask if obesity is genetic. I guess one of the things I've kind of deduced from today is that the genetic component might be that during pregnancy, our mother had a certain lifestyle or diet, and that increased our predisposition to having a different reaction to certain foods.

1:23:11Jessie Inchauspé:Completely. And the studies show that. So in animal studies, when a mom has a lot of sugar during pregnancy, there's little epigenetic switches in the baby's DNA that encourage fat storage. So why is that? Because if you eat sugar, your baby's getting sugar in his bloodstream, And how does the baby protect himself from high sugar levels? By turning the sugar into fat. So by eating a high sugar diet, you're sending a little postcard to your baby being like, hey baby, you're going to be born into a world with a lot of sugar. So become really good at turning that sugar into fat to protect yourself.

1:23:42Jessie Inchauspé:And this is why we see across studies on tens of thousands of moms that the higher a mom's glucose levels during pregnancy, the more fat mass a baby is born with. Higher glucose during pregnancy, baby had to turn that glucose to fat to protect himself so he's born with more fat mass. And it doesn't just stop after birth. Studies show that this continues. Babies born to high glucose mothers are more likely to have obesity as children, as teenagers, and as adults. So the cycle continues. The programming of storing a lot of fat continues, even though they're no longer connected to their mom's bloodstream.

1:24:20Steven Bartlett:in the process of producing this book did you think much about the evolutionary sort of backstory of where we came from and how our ancestors used to eat did you consider i don't know the orangutan where we share most of our dna i think it's like 98 of our dna because if you look at sort of what

1:24:35Jessie Inchauspé:we used to eat meaning nutrient-rich organ meats and not just like a chicken breast which is just muscle which is actually very poor nutrients if you think about how we didn't used to eat processed foods, we had a diet that was much more conducive to baby having more of what he needed in the womb. Today, our food system is failing us. We're all deprived of proper nutrition with what we're eating with all these ultra processed foods. And that includes pregnant moms. So I tried to write a book that was going to help people navigate this very toxic food landscape to see these four simple things they could do to try to optimize a little bit what the baby was getting.

1:25:13Jessie Inchauspé:But it's a lot to think about. And also being pregnant comes with, I think, innate pressure. Like I felt pressure during pregnancy. I'm like, man, I'm making another human. Like this is a lot. And then you're bombarded by messages online and Instagram, what to do, what not to do. And it feels like whatever you do, you feel guilty. So I'm hoping this book gives clear science, scientific evidence to help people navigate that pressure. But listen, I just want babies to be healthy. Like I want my baby to be healthy. I want everybody's baby to be healthy. I want moms to feel as little stress as possible.

1:25:44Jessie Inchauspé:And that's just the truth. And I'm hoping that this book brings a little bit of reassurance and light in this complicated world we live in.

1:25:55Steven Bartlett:Stress is something we haven't talked about, but I guess that also is an important factor in this story of raising a healthy child.

1:26:02Jessie Inchauspé:I was extremely stressed my entire pregnancy because of my miscarriage. Like I, probably the nine months of my pregnancy with my son were the nine most anxious months of my life. And that's probably not very good for my baby. But hey, you do what you can, you know. I tried everything to reduce my stress levels. I just couldn't. I was so nervous about losing the pregnancy.

1:26:21Steven Bartlett:You tried everything?

1:26:22Jessie Inchauspé:Yeah, I mean everything. I didn't take anxiety medication, but I was, you know, doing yoga and breath work and working out and talking to my therapist and blah, blah, blah. But I was still anxious because I really didn't want to lose the pregnancy and I was scared I would. Why are you smiling?

1:26:38Steven Bartlett:But you didn't. No, I didn't. Yeah. And And you have a happy, healthy little baby.

1:26:44Jessie Inchauspé:Yeah.

1:26:45Steven Bartlett:You want to have more babies?

1:26:47Jessie Inchauspé:I would love to. But man, now it's like logistics. Like, okay, so I'm doing this product and that project and this work thing. So where can I find nine months plus six months where I can't really work in this crazy schedule that I create for myself, by the way. I just love my work, so I'm always planning new things.

1:27:06Steven Bartlett:When you look at products in the supermarket, I think we all have a different thing we go straight to on the label. You know, sometimes people go to calories. Sometimes they look at protein. Sometimes they're looking at is it gluten-free. Sometimes they look at the carbohydrates or the sugars. What do you look for?

1:27:20Jessie Inchauspé:Ingredients. I go straight to the ingredients list. Yeah. Because in the ingredients list, things are ordered by weight. So the first ingredient is going to be what there is the most of in that food.

1:27:32Steven Bartlett:Oh, I had no idea.

1:27:33Jessie Inchauspé:Yeah. So they're ordered by weight. So if there's sugar or any other type of sweet thing in the first five ingredients, like dates, like fruit juice, like mollusks, like orange syrup, whatever, I know that's a dessert. And so I put it in my mind, okay, this is a food for enjoyment for dessert. So if you look at the sardines, ingredients, sardine, olive oil, salt, natural flavor. So I would try to look for one that doesn't have natural flavor because I don't know what that means. I don't think it's necessary. But as you can see, there's no sugar in here. So this is not dessert. This sardine can is not dessert.

1:28:10Jessie Inchauspé:Isn't that helpful?

1:28:12Steven Bartlett:Because I often just look at the back of labels and I just go straight for the carbs and sugar level.

1:28:16Jessie Inchauspé:Really?

1:28:17Steven Bartlett:Yeah, I don't know why. I always look at the sugar level. I think it's because I've done keto for a little while.

1:28:21Jessie Inchauspé:It kind of depends, though, because if you're looking at carbon sugars for a pack of table sugar versus, I don't know, like a protein shake. I mean, it's a helpful place to look. That's also where I look because carbs and sugars will tell you a lot about what the food is going to do to you. But also it depends on the ratio, right? If there's a lot of protein also, then having carbs in there is not going to create that big of a glucose spike. If it's a product that has just carbs, then yes.

1:28:48Steven Bartlett:A lot of people look at the calories.

1:28:50Jessie Inchauspé:Yeah. But calories are a very bad way of assessing a food because two foods can have the exact same number of calories and be completely different in terms of what they do to your body. So an avocado and a donut, both 200 calories, vastly different impact. It's like saying two books are the same because they have the same number of pages. Calories and pages tell you nothing about what's inside the food or inside the book. We have to learn about molecules, which is why your reflex of going to carbs and sugars is much smarter. Because you're seeing what's actually going to happen when you eat the food.

1:29:24Jessie Inchauspé:For example, avocado and donut. The avocado, mostly fat, fiber, going to keep your glucose levels nice and steady, going to give your body healthy fats. Donut, mostly sugars, is going to create a big glucose spike. Inflammation, aging, crash, cravings, fatigue, it's going to have a vastly different impact on your body. So only looking at your diet through the lens of calories is a very bad idea. Because two diets can have the exact same number of calories and you can have a completely different experience of life depending on what you're actually eating.

1:29:59Steven Bartlett:And what's your diet generally? Like what time do you eat in the morning? Do you do fasting or anything like that?

1:30:04Jessie Inchauspé:So no, I don't do fasting. So I'll have breakfast in the morning, always eggs. Right now my current kick is a bacon and egg quesadilla, super good, with coffee, always, with whole milk that I love. Then for lunch, I'll have a veggie starter if I'm having some carb-heavy lunch or I'll have like a collard green chicken wrap with avocado and peppers. After lunch, I always usually have something sweet because I love sugar. I love sugar. So I have like some chocolate or a nice cookie that I had and then I'll try to move my body if I can. This is the main thing. I can get a bit difficult. And then the evening is when I have most carbs.

1:30:41I love having rice or pasta at night.

1:30:45Jessie Inchauspé:It just makes me feel cozy. What time? As early as I can. I'm very unfrench in that way. If I could have dinner at 5 p.m., I would. But I would have no more social life. So maybe after my baby's in bed, so like 7.38.

1:30:59Steven Bartlett:And are you having vinegar before that meal?

1:31:01Jessie Inchauspé:It depends. If I don't have a veggie starter, yeah. If I have a veggie starter, I'll put some vinegar on the veggie starter.

1:31:07Steven Bartlett:What else are you working on? What's next for you, Jessie?

1:31:09Jessie Inchauspé:One is mental health. Because I have a deep passion for mental health. It's the reason I got into glucose in the first place. So I want to see if I can start putting together some mental health hacks based on studies. This is something that's been in the back of my mind for a long time. And I'm trying to find the time to go there. And I'm working on new types of content. I'm just endlessly inspired by what I'm able to do and how lucky I am to dream up something and be able to put it together. So lots of surprises coming. As you know, we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for next.

1:31:47Steven Bartlett:I do know. And the question left for you is, if you could make the world a better place in one way, what would you change? How could you make the most impact?

1:31:56Jessie Inchauspé:I would maybe outlaw food marketing or maybe outlaw sugary breakfast foods. something about making very bad foods that are that look healthy making those illegal it would be illegal to put any health claims on a product for example no added sugars or vegan or gluten-free i would outlaw all of those to help people navigate a bit better or if i could have like one magic wand to do one thing maybe i would say no more fruit juice in schools even that would be

1:32:29Steven Bartlett:really cool nine months that count forever how your pregnancy diet shapes your baby's future what What is the closing message, Jessie, for pregnant couples and anybody who was once conceived for themselves?

1:32:44Jessie Inchauspé:The closing message is pregnancy is complicated. The food system we live in is complicated and toxic. And this is a very simple four-step trimester-by-trimester plan that doesn't require a lot of money. That is going to help you give your baby the best foundation during development.

1:33:02Steven Bartlett:Do you think there's things from a legislation perspective that can be done? Yeah.

1:33:06Jessie Inchauspé:The most important is for the system, the support system around the moms, to help make it really easy for them to eat eggs and sardines and vegetables and healthy fats. We have to all support moms because they're creating the next generation. And they can't change the food industry. Things have to shift around them to make it easier. I think it's also about education. For example, choline, you know, I said 90 % of moms are not getting enough. and when people run surveys to see whether doctors are talking to moms about choline, only 6 % of doctors are talking to moms about choline during pregnancy.

1:33:40Jessie Inchauspé:So there's also just a big information gap somewhere. Things are broken in lots of different areas and maybe it's like, oh, moms can't handle it or maybe it's just that doctors are focused on very short-term like emergency things to manage. Maybe they don't have time to talk about nutrition. I don't know, but there's a real gap and I'm hoping this book will fill it. I'm hoping, like, this is pie in the sky. Like, why don't we prescribe nine months that count forever to every parent that gets pregnant? This will be a very good nutrition guide for them and very simple.

1:34:13Steven Bartlett:I have many people in my life that are currently pregnant, people that are very, very close to me. And it's funny because you hear the conversations they're having and it does kind of sometimes feel like horoscopes and guessing. No offense to people that love horoscopes. But it does feel a little bit sort of pie in the sky. What's your sign? I know fucking that. You don't know your sign? I'm Virgo, I think.

1:34:33Jessie Inchauspé:Okay, okay, okay.

1:34:34Steven Bartlett:People are like, I knew he was a Virgo. I'm not really, I'm Sagittarius. But it is, it's confusing because there's so much information out there. So it's wonderful to have a manual like this that demystifies an area where there's just so much information coming at you. And there's so much conflicting information. And your book is so importantly based on scientific consensus. and facts and studies versus just experience alone. And I think that's why it's so important. And whenever the time comes that me and my fiancee are fortunate enough, hopefully, to have our own baby, we're both going to reread this book because it's hard to find books on this subject that are so succinct, that break it down stage by stage.

1:35:18Steven Bartlett:And you as an author, you'll have a wonderful way of making things accessible. Even in this conversation, I don't need to ask you to define complicated words. And that's reflected in all the work that you do and everything that you write. So highly recommend. Great book to buy for someone as a gift if you just found out that someone in your life is pregnant, but also a great book to buy for you and your partner if you're going through your own pregnancy journey or thinking about getting pregnant soon.

1:35:40Jessie Inchauspé:It's also a good book to buy for your kids, for all the grandparents to be out there. It's a good book to buy for your kids if they're going to have a baby soon.

1:35:48Steven Bartlett:Amen. Jessie, thank you.

1:35:50Jessie Inchauspé:Thank you so much for having me back, Stephen. It's always a pleasure.

1:36:01Thank you.