Rainn Wilson: "I was so unhappy during The Office!" (Dwight Schrute)

29:20He was going to be dead within an hour. And we were sobbing and I looked at his Grey body there on the table and I saw all these aspects of my dad that I loved. The one eyebrow hair kind of poking out and the mole on his arm and the way his hands are and his hair kind of messy and was filled with such love and such heartbreak. And at the same time seeing his lifeless body, I was like, this isn't him, this isn't my dad. This is the vessel that carried my dad, Robert Wilson and his beautiful heart and spirit and his dynamism and his creativity, his light as it were is no longer here. But that's his reality.

30:18This body is just a shell. It's a vessel. It's an avatar. And I also didn't experience it as, oh, he has, it's been snuffed out like a candle. It just seemed very clear like, oh, it is passed on. It's somewhere else now and here is his body. And that was such a profound spiritual experience that I knew intellectually from my study, but it's one of those learnings that kind of has to hit you in the gut to make you really understand. And go, oh, and I remember that amazing quote that I often pull out from father Tehardt Deschardin, a Jesuit priest who said famously, we are not human beings having a spiritual experience.

31:07We are spiritual beings having a human experience. And that quote, which I've always loved, I saw just evidenced with my father. He's a spiritual being. He had a human experience for 79 years in this body. And now his spiritual reality has passed and moved on. And this is one of the essential messages of sol -boom is that we are spiritual beings. We're having this incredible human experience. Look at us having this incredible dialogue right now. And then I'm going to go get an Uber and then I've got to go do some voiceovers. And I'm going to go play tennis with a friend. And I'm having this, you know, I'm having a relationship with my wife and with my son.

31:50I'm learning, I'm growing, I'm being challenged. And it's magnificent. And here's my, my fleshy somewhat corpulent 57 year old body that has done, I've done pretty well by its ridiculous enough. So I get to take my shirt off occasionally as white and people can laugh at my absurdly pale and oblong torso. And I'm fine with it. It's all for comedy, right? And parts of my body are starting to break down. I've got like half hearing in my, in my left ear and I've got mild sleep apnea. And I have to wear a mouth appliance that just my jaw forward and I wake up in the morning and I go, I place it on the side of the bed.

32:29And here I am. This spiritual being having a human experience as rain, detrick Wilson. It's this is fabulous, but this is part of what we need to recognize. And this could help people. This can help people with their mental health struggles. Is an understanding that where we're radiant, luminescent, precious, shards of the divine, inhabiting these, these fleshy meat suits for hopefully 89 to 100 years. And struggle and suffering and anxiety just comes with the game, baby. It's just part of the game. Talk about a friend called Dave. Yeah. David or Dave, you also passed quite suddenly. And he's handling of that in particular, surprised you in many ways.

33:19Oh, Dave. One of my best friends, David Von Enken, he was a television director, film director, brilliant guy, wonderful human being. And he just got diagnosed out of, out of nowhere with stage four stomach cancer. I mean, just like out of nowhere, mid fifties and essentially a death sentence. So I get to spend a lot of time with him in his last year and a half after that diagnosis. And we did weekly beach walks. And he said to me several times, and he would just grab my arm and he would say, rain, it's just static. It's all just static. You've got to get the static out of your life. The emails, the meetings, the career, the appointments, the driving, the traffic, the phone calls, the zooms.

34:14It's all just static. It's all noise. And that really resonated with me. And I know a lot of people have mentioned that in the book because we do experience our life as this kind of like buzz of like appointments and chopping and zooms and a point and bills to pay and whatnot. And that was profoundly impactful. And I would always encourage David to, it's a tricky situation, you know, when someone's dying, I don't want to like God forbid lecture him on death or thinking about it. But I would always just turn it a little bit toward a more profound discussion about, you know, the soul and the journey of the soul and the movement of the spirit, you know, beyond our this corporal 3D surround sound experience of being a human being to the realms beyond.

35:10But he like many people, he, he got a little stuck in a way that made me sad because he really just focused on fighting the cancer, which is super, super important. Right. So he devoted all of his waking time and energy to research and treatment and diet and everything to fight the cancer, which is super important. And I don't blame him, but it was pretty terrifying for him to consider mortality and the implications thereof, you know, the daughter. But I'll never forget him talking about the static in that way. And I find that to be also very clarifying, you know, in my daily meditation practice.

35:53Like, how can I, again, the Buddha uses the image a lot of the lotus flower, you know, it's floating on top of the swamp, you know, these beautiful lotuses. And there's the swamp and the mire and the bugs and the dirt and the, and this beautiful flower rising above. And how can we in our own little way be a lotus flower and the rest of the swamp is, is our daily static. The rest of the swamp, the alternative way of living to everything you've just described. What is the alternative way of living? So, you know, you've got the realization that everything is static and the understanding that we are spiritual beings having a human experience.

36:37What is the opposites of that that you see when you walk the streets or you observe people? What is the opposite way of living to that? And why is it causing suffering? Thoreau talked about the unexamined life is not worth living. Why did he say that? And what did he mean by that? Well, it's been a long time since I read Walden pond and the night Thoreau spent in jail. But I loved the transcendentalists because that is really kind of the first authentic American spiritual movement. And this idea that we're seeking transcendence that was kind of the first movement that really acknowledged like we are spiritual beings.

37:19So, I think, you know, it's the unexamined life. I think living in the static and living in the swamp is not taking the time to honor the sacred divinity of aspects of our life. And, you know, I have a, when you study meditation and you participate in meditation, there's this strange thing that happens where you realize that you, the reality of you, is the watcher, the observer. When you meditate, your thoughts are still bouncing around. You know, the Buddhists call it the monkey mind, right? So your thoughts are bouncing around. You might have some anxiety and worry like, oh, is that person going to accept my offer on this or is this thing going to work out?

38:10Or, oh, is my wife still mad at me or whatever? So you have this emotional dissonance and you have this kind of intellectual dissonance. And then in the meditative state, you're just witnessing that. It's almost like you're floating above it and looking down. And then you realize like, oh, my reality is not my thoughts. My reality is not my feelings. My reality is not even just my body and the sensations that my body takes in. There is some kind of aspect of the eye that is the witnesser. And it's getting in touch with that that allows us to get above the static. So meditation is very important to me.

38:55The next step of meditation for me is connecting with the ultimate divine. You can do it in prayer. I have a chapter in the book called the notorious GOD getting into God. So, yeah, that's one way to rise above the noise and the static and the swamp is in that practice. And then I mentioned at the very beginning, like recognizing the sacred and the divine. And we can do this. It's certainly easy to do in the beauty of nature. It's also when you have children and you're raising a kid, you kind of see that, the beauty in the kids' natural curiosity and wonder and open -heartedness. And then you experience it in human interaction.

39:46I think I view this conversation as sacred. This is a sacred conversation where seeking to understand each other. You're being a service to your incredible audience. They want to learn about how to make themselves better people, how to start a business, how to maximize their health, how to go on a spiritual journey as a human being. They want to learn all this and you're providing the way into them. So we get to have this conversation. People may not agree with what I'm saying, but it might spark something and gratitude and witnessing the sacred. And that meditative practice of kind of rising above our thoughts and feelings.

40:32Those are tools that we can use to make our lives better and richer. If someone is on the outsides of this conversation and they don't really understand what spirituality is, and they've not really gone under the journey that you've been on, what kind of questions would you pose to them to help them open their mind? So if someone's listening to this, they find the word spiritual to be kind of hippie stuff. And they're not really, you know, they manage to get this far in the conversation, but they don't really understand spirituality, what it means. They manage to get this far. Don't turn off the pod.

41:05Yeah, there's more good stuff coming. We're going to talk about the office. I promise. No, stick around folks. Way too many cameras here. Is it, I think there's nine or something.

41:17What would you say to those people? I just think of a guy driving his like, Laurie up the country. He's put the podcast on and he doesn't really know what spirituality is. Doesn't really understand. It doesn't understand why he would therefore need it in his life. Yeah. That's a great question. I don't know that I have an answer for that. I mean, I guess, you know, the dictionary definition of spirituality that I use is a focus on the non -material aspects of life. So that's our heart. That's our soul. It's our connection. It's the light that we bring. It's kind of a connection to what I would call the divine qualities that we all carry to some degree or another spiritual virtues.

42:09You could call them love, compassion, honesty, humility. These are qualities that don't necessarily serve us as human animals. So there's something. They're not about the quest for power. They're not about the quest for status and comfort. They allow us to kind of rise above our kind of humdrum human experience. So that's what I would, that's how I would define spirituality, something in that realm. But I would say that, listen, we all want more love in our life, right? And love is the most precious and beautiful resource. And I would say, maybe you don't believe in spirituality, but, or maybe you don't believe in God, but you can focus on love.

42:58And we can all focus on love. That's something we all have an experience of. And so we want to increase love in our life. That's, that's increasing spirituality. It's the same thing. Like, I had a profound experience of love. When my son was born, he almost died. It was very traumatic birth. An ER room with blood in the middle of the night. And really, Pistpore, Van Nies, California, you know, County Hospital in a hallway, emergency C -section. And when I held my son, like, again, I had one of those handful of truly transcendent experiences, one of those cosmic experiences of looking into my son's eyes.

43:48And they were bright, bright blue. And he just been ripped from the womb of his mother. And I felt such profound love for him. And it was just like waves after waves of love. And just almost, I had tears, but it was almost just beyond tears. It was like this transcendent, like, love orgasm. That was minutes long as I held him. It just was such a gratitude. And, you know, for a lot of materialists, they could say, well, that's just neurons and biochemicals in your brain that are causing that. And that's true. There are neurons firing, and there's biochemicals. But it's so much more than that. You're never going to tell me that that's all it is.

44:40And that is just some biological imperative to, you know, have the species move forward. And that's why parents love their children. Like, what I experienced, I'm sorry, it's just beyond that. You can call me deluded. But that's what spirituality is, is just increasing that love connection. I think that was a dating show in the 90s, love connection. But we want to increase that love connection. And that is what a spiritual journey is about. And we can increase that with ourselves, with nature, with time, with beauty, and with our fellow human beings. How did the both of you suddenly change your life?

45:20Well, having kids is a paradigm shift because you have a creature that's in your care and is dependent on you. And it was actually really profound when my son was a year and a half, the same age that I was when my mom left to have the affair. That was a really profound time in my life. It brought up a lot for me emotionally, because I saw this toddler kid, and he would go out and explore the world. And he'd be like, oh, there's a cup, and he'd play with some blocks, and he'd, oh, tree, and he'd had some words going and stuff like that. And then immediately you'd see this look on his face, like, oh, I'm out too far.

46:04Like, oh, I've swam out too far, and then he'd run back to the shallow end to his mom, and cling to his mom, and like, ah, and mom was home base, right? And I was like, oh, that home base was script for me, it was taken away from me when I was that same age. It was pretty profound. But this idea that our, we're responsible, we brought a life into the world, and we're responsible for that life. Not just for five or 10 years, not just for the first 18 years, but for eternity, it's, it's profound. I can't really say intellectually what that means, but it shifts the way you are alive in the world.

46:48That example you gave of your, your son at one and a half years old, being able to return to home base in that you can also see what, what might have happened to his development and his perspective. If, when he'd gone out too far and turned around, there was no mother there. Yeah. Who he might have become. And if there was no mother there, and then if, if I, and then he had the father, which is a close second, right? But then my dad, who was so traumatized by being abandoned by his wife, and was so already emotionally shut down, and he couldn't really access emotions are the best of scenarios.

47:27He had been colossally abused as a kid, and his mom died, and his dad was abusive and beat him and left him in his sister alone in the house for weeks at a time. It was very Charles Dickens. So this, you know, my dad's case, he was, he was the worst possible person to have to bond to, you know, or to need to bond to. So, you know, if little Walter, if my wife holiday had left her or died for some reason, and Walter had to turn to me, like, it would have been okay, but there's, there's nothing that fulfills that, that, that primal human connectionness, then a child and the mom. One of the things that really surprised me was when I was reading about your time at the office, which by the way I have to say is my favorite show of all time, she probably said that I'm sure it's the case for a lot of people.

48:29Wait, are you saying right now that the US office is better than the UK office? Yes. Wow. Yes, I know. Do you hear that? It is, maybe because there was more of them. There's a hell a lot more of them. So, I've watched, I watched, honestly, when I was going through a difficult part in my life and I was trying to building my businesses, I was shoplifting food because I was just, I was so broke at this chapter of my life, it was the, and I had this beat up laptop where I had to like, solder the charger because I couldn't afford the 10 pounds to buy a new one. It was the only thing I watched, and I watched it for about two years.

49:02So, obviously, I just kept going back and back and back. It was, you know, you're talking chapter 10 about the seven pillars of spiritual revolution and one of them being about spreading joy. It spread a whole lot of joy in my life, a whole lot of joy. And I don't watch TV, to be honest. I don't watch TV movies, don't really watch any of it. These guys will know. But the office, I watched. I don't think there's anything else that I've watched. But when I read about your experience on the show, there was a real sense of unfulfillment, especially in the early years when you were making the show.

49:33You talked about that a little bit on Bill's podcast as well. When I was in the office, I spent several years really mostly unhappy because it wasn't enough. Yeah. Well, first of all, I'm so glad that you enjoyed the office. And I just need to speak to how deeply gratified I am and all of us are that the office has brought so much serenity and peace and love and upliftment and inspiration to people. I mean, getting on a TV show is one of the hardest things in the world. And then getting on one that lasts is a really hard one. And then getting on one that lasts and is good. And then one that lasts and is good and still has a cultural impact 10 years after it has ended is, I mean, talk about hitting the lottery.

50:24I mean, we had no idea. We knew we were on to something really special and funny and magical. And of course, Steve Carral is one of the great comedic actors that will ever live. But we had no idea I would have this kind of impact and we're so deeply grateful and gratified around that. And I going back to the English office, it's always like, it's so funny to me in the Bison King, the other book there, I talk a little bit about that. That competition is so absurd. Like the anger and vitriol that you Brits brought to the fact that the Americans were going to remake the beloved office. It was so staggering.

51:05I mean, it was so enraged and vitriolic. And it was like, guys, guys, the English office isn't going anywhere. You can watch it over and over again. We're not going to take all the copies and burn them. You know what I mean? We're going to take a brilliant idea by Ricky and Stephen and the BBC. And God bless them. It's astonishingly brilliant. And we're going to kind of run with it instead of 12 episodes. We're going to make 200 episodes. How's that? If you don't like it, you don't have to watch it. But that was an interesting time frame. But yeah, so it's interesting that you bring this up because I was very frustrated because I was on Bill Marne.

51:49I was on one other podcast and I was talking about how there were times on the office that I really struggled because I really wasn't happy. Because it wasn't enough. Here I was on the greatest job that I could ever imagine, beyond my wildest dreams of that geeky chess playing, bassoon playing, kid from Suburban Seattle that walked around like a Pimpley serial killer, that I would be part of one of the great TV shows of all time. I mean, give me a break. And here I was getting paid like millions of dollars and playing one of the most memorable characters. And I'm getting nominated for awards and I'm working with the most beautiful family of actors and writers imaginable.

52:36And yet I was like, how come I can't get more movies? And why did my movie I did bomb? And why won't they make a deal with me? And I just, I want to have this and I want an office and Warner Brothers. And why can't I get a, you know, and I spent a lot of time, unnecessary time and angst and anguish in that angle. And I think that I'm just an anxious discontent. At a time when I should have just been like, this, it doesn't get better than this. Just enjoy it. Drink it in and be a part of this incredible artistic, because it was artistic experience. So, but I think the reason I've been bringing that up and some interviews is I think it's important for people to understand that, you know, here's someone who, you know, 15 years into their acting career or 20 years into their acting career, because I was, I started playing Dwight when I was 38 years old, is has officially made it.

53:39Yeah. And they're still unhappy. And that is so human. It's so quintessentially human. And to think that, oh, if I hit this end result, then I am going to be happy. And that's why I brought it back to that unhappiness that I experienced in my 20s. Like, I was an actor. I was from suburban Seattle. Here I was. I had an apartment in New York. I was doing acting. And yet I was really unhappy and miserable. And it didn't make any sense because society had always told me like, there's this if then proposition. Like if you achieve X, Y and Z, if you make a certain amount of money, if you get a certain position, if you're in a certain kind of relationship, if you have a house at a certain level, if you're a member of a certain club or whatever, then you will be happy.

54:24Once I achieve this, then I will be happy. That's bullshit. It's absolute and total crock of bullshit. Now, certainly I'm not meaning to demean anyone that's struggling to pay bills. And they're going like, you know, fuck you, Hollywood elitist. You got millions of dollars in the bank. And you don't have to worry about, you know, paying the bills. I was there. You know, I was having to worry about, you know, paying the bills. And it was a struggle for the first 15 years of my career. So I've been there. I know what that's like. And I honor that. So you certainly want to make enough money to, it does take an incredible pressure off your shoulders once you have achieved that.

55:04But to think that then you're going to be happy. I mean, you've interviewed a lot of millionaires and a lot of successful people. Like how many of them are really fulfilled, deeply fulfilled and happy? What would I have had to have done to have gotten rain at the height and the peak of that success, even when it was going to be in the moment and to enjoy it for what it was because it's not just you. It's all the people that are listening now that are in jobs. They've just got that promotion. And now they're thinking about becoming a director or a CEO that they are deferring the happiness off to the future behind some goal.

55:36What can we do in the moment to just like enjoy life today, bring our happiness into the into the now. If you always think you're happy, this is somewhere in the future, it always will be. What would I have had to have said to you to get you to snap out of that?

55:57That's a great question. I don't know that there's anything that you could have said to me in a couple of sentences or a couple of paragraphs. But I think if you could have encouraged me to go back onto my spiritual journey, back into my spiritual journey, because you're absolutely right. All we have is now. All we have is this next breath, this breath that we're currently experiencing. And this is where the joy is. And if we're waiting for the joy to be 375 breaths from now or 3 ,000 breaths from now or 300 breaths from now, we're missing out 100%. And I think gratitude has a great deal because one of the cures for chronic dissatisfaction, the cure for Dukha is gratitude.

56:45And I would have been to rain. One of the things that would have been really helpful is like rain. You need to start every day with 10 things you're grateful for. It's like I'm grateful for Jennifer Fisher and John Kuzinski and Steve Carrell. And I'm grateful for a nice paycheck and a healthy son and a beautiful wife. And I'm grateful for the fans of the office and the fact that I get to... I've trained as an actor my whole life and I get to use those skills and tell wonderful stories and make people laugh. If I could have been stayed hooked into that and I did get hooked back into that. I'm describing a period of like three years, three to four years where I was really struggling with that.

57:26And then I came around. Does it rub you if you're ambition though? This is a question I was used to mow with myself because that rain that wanted more versus the rain. I guess I'm grateful for what I have. Is one more or less ambitious than the other? Yeah, that's a great question. And I don't know the answer to that because there is... Did my chronic dissatisfaction field my spiritual drive and also field my career drive and my ambition? Because I was so chronically disenchanted and disaffected that I wanted more opportunities. I wanted more money. I wanted more knowledge. I wanted more wisdom.

58:12There is a drive there that can be healthy and a drive that's... There's an unhealthy aspect to it. So I don't really know the answer to that. I think for now when I look in my life, I still have great ambition. I still want sold boom as a brand. I'm just kind of starting to think about how to expand that as a brand. I still want to act in movies. I want to direct. I want to maybe create companies. I created SoulPancake, maybe create another company or something like that. There's a lot I want to do. But I'm hoping to bring the best aspects of myself toward that ambition. For me, that has to do with service and God.

59:00And utilizing myself, my God -given talents and faculties. And maximizing those. And living in God's will, I'm sorry to get all hippy -dippy religious now. But to me, that's what's driving me now. But it's... As long as we're in the Battle of the Ego, and that's the most ancient human spiritual struggle, it's the Battle of the Ego. And psychologists talk about it and prophets talk about it and gurus talk about it. Right? So, as long as we want to promote the self and the self -will and ego -satisfaction, we'll never be happy. Are you happy? I am. Yeah. Happy is the wrong word. But whatever it is you mean by happy, I have that thing.

59:49What is that thing? I don't know what the word is. And I ponder this a lot. Like, what's the perfect word? Social scientists talk about well -being. So, I like that one a lot. That works. It's partially contentment. But it's also partially meaning and purpose and vision. And when I'm in alignment with meaning and purpose and vision, then I feel like I'm vibrating on the right frequency. Q1 is often when businesses start implementing new systems and processes in hopes of creating efficiencies for the year ahead. And over the course of my career, I've learnt just how crucial having the right systems in places, one which has helped me across many of my investments is NetSuite.

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1:01:15That's netSuite .com slash Bartlett. One of the things that you still struggle with because sometimes when we read the books and stuff and I've written a book myself, it can sometimes exude the illusion of fixed or figured it all out. I'm done. Right. So, what do you still struggle with on an ongoing basis? Yeah. I think that I can be a better husband and I think I can be a kinder father and a more compassionate friend. There's still some really basics of human interaction that I haven't quite gotten figured out. Well, because I wasn't really, I didn't learn these things from my parents. I didn't learn connection and compassion in the household that I grew up in.

1:02:09So, I've had to, you know, parent my adult self in that direction. And, you know, to really, I struggle with making sure that I'm again using the tools that God has given me to try and make the world a better place. I think there's a lot more that I could be doing to try and make the world better and to help heal people that are disenfranchised and bring more joy to people's lives and try and bring spiritual tools to a young generation that I think will make their lives better. There's more I could be doing to that end. And I still have a big ego. You know, I'm still narcissistic and I still want ego satisfaction and it's always there.

1:02:57You know, it's, it's, you know, they always say an addiction that your addict is in the basement doing push -ups, you know, even when it, but I would say the same thing about the ego. You know, it's there in the, in the basement doing push -ups, just getting ready to come in and take the reins. Does it speak to you sometimes that the guy in the basement? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You know, Jung talks about the shadow side and it's so important part of the therapeutic process is to get to know one's shadow because and to know and embrace and accept and love one's shadow. And I have a, I have a dark shadow, you know, it's an addict shadow and it's a miserable shadow and it's self -important and righteous and entitled.

1:03:42And this is, this is part of who Rain Wilson is, you know, and I'm not going to get rid of those aspects of myself by keeping that shadow at, at arms length or locked in a closet or something like that. I have to, you know, keep your, keep your enemies closer, you know, keep that, keep that shadow. There you are, buddy. There you are. Huh, doot, doot, doot, right on the belly. Goot goot goot goot. Yeah, you little, you little mean little addict, you know, you little narcissistic entitled asshole. I love you. I love you. You're right here with me. You're part of me. Let's go on this. We're in this together.

1:04:20I got you right where I want you. Everyone's got a shadow. A lot of people are trying to fight their shadow. I mean, a lot of the prevailing narratives are that you can therapy your way out of the shadow. Yeah. No, it's, it's sitting the, you got to sit, sit the shadow on the lap, almost like a ventriloquist dummy, you know, it's, that's why I love ventriloquist, ventriloquist stories and horror films of like the dummies that come to life and attack, you know, because that's, that's your shadow. Hello, is that, hello, how are you? Fuck you, Steven, die or have a fucking CEO. Get a new t -shirt idiot.

1:04:59That's going to be the trailer.

1:05:07The 12 step program, you and Russell have both spoken to me about this, but Mac or more talk to me about it as well. And what I've since the conversation with Russell, I've spent a lot of time talking to other people about. Really like what makes us change. So the 12 step program is has some principles, which I think are applicable for all of our lives about how to create change. If someone's going through something in their lives now and they're struggling to change it, how does that 12 step program help us to go to change? What, what is it about that program that causes that change in people?

1:05:42I love the 12 step program. That's such a great question. There's going to be people that are way more knowledgeable than I, but I will say there are some essential components of the 12 step program that you write are applicable to everyone and could make everyone's lives better. I think society as a whole could benefit from a lot of the way that the 12 steps work. I think it's the most profound spiritual movement of the last several hundred years. It is transformed millions of people's lives. First of all, there's the idea that there's this wonderful dichotomy at the center of the 12 steps, which is if I surrender, if I admit defeat, if I admit powerlessness, I find great strength.

1:06:35There's a beautiful spiritual co -on at the center of that. I give up. I throw up the white flag. I can't do this on my own. I need the support of a community. I need to get vulnerable. I need the support of a higher power. Then I find great strength. There's something just so beautiful about that. The community of the 12 steps is amazing too. Sharing with like -minded alcoholics and getting the support of that community, the fact that there's servant leaders, that there's elections, that it's the inmates running the asylum. There aren't these leaders. In fact, if there's someone who presents as a leader in 12 steps, you should be immediately wary of them that they have any kind of answer at all.

1:07:26The surrender point really is the thing that's compelled me. When Russell was talking about this idea of - I think what he said was like - he broke it down into three processes. Awareness of whatever it is. The belief that you can change the thing. In this third step, this principle of surrendering to it. In an individualistic society, materialistic society, where we're becoming more and more isolated and an individualistic in our approach to life, we are living in full white walls alone more than ever before. We think we can do it ourselves. This idea of surrender and admitting that you need the collective and help with something that you might not have the answers.

1:08:05I think it's so powerful, so important as well. I think we all need to surrender in many ways. I think I need to surrender. In terms of my ego, I think I need to surrender. In terms of - even spirituality, I told you a second ago about my partner who is very - anyone might call spiritual. And surrendering to her way of living has brought me so much value in my life. So this idea of surrender being the solution to - the resistance we're encountering by the ways that we're living. I think it's something that everyone can consider. If you're feeling a deep sense of dissatisfaction in your life, surrendering and saying, I need help, I don't know the answer, can you help me?

1:08:55It brings in everything - it's probably the medicine that you're seeking. But surrender feels like an interesting word. It feels like powerlessness. But again, there's great power in that powerlessness. And what do you surrender to? And that's why there's a higher power as well. Boy, there's so many things I wanted to say there. But there's a humility in the process that is missing in contemporary society. We say we're the least humble that humans have been in our history. I'll 8 billion of us sharing this planet. So - and I think God or a higher power requires a certain humility. Like there's a power greater than myself.

1:09:39The ego is the opposite of surrender. The ego wants to control outcomes. The ego wants to control other people. As long as we're trying to control other people and control outcomes, we're going to be unhappy. So there's something about surrendering like your partner's journey, you surrender to that. You don't know if she's going to go live on a commune or worship a mushroom or something like that. Okay, you're on your journey. She already does. You know, so it's again that central spiritual struggle is the ego, is the primacy, the primacy, the primalcy of I the self as being separate from everything else.

1:10:27And the essential spiritual teaching at the center of every faith tradition is that we're all connected. We're all united. We're all one. This is an illusion of self. So surrender eliminates that illusion of self. But there's so many other nuggets in 12 steps like one of them, just in the middle of the steps is when we are wrong promptly admit it. Like that's just a really good piece of advice. And you know what, we could all benefit politicians could benefit CEOs could benefit people in relationships parents with their children people in partnership could benefit like when we're wrong promptly admit it promptly being the word not not eventually.

1:11:09You know, as soon as you know, say you're sorry and do it faster, you know, and do it better. And the world would be a much better place if everyone around said when I'm wrong, I'm in a promptly admit it. That's just one little gem. There's so many dozens more holiday. Yeah, she's been with you through a lot. Yeah, yeah. When I was looking at the timeline of when you guys got together, I think you met an enacting class, right? Yeah, it's been a long time, almost four decades, right? Hell a long time. Yeah, we were an acting class together in 1985. We weren't together as a couple till 90, 91 really when she moved to New York, but I was even born then.

1:11:51You've grown a whole steven in that time. I was born a night too. So what is she? What is she? What does she mean to you? Are you gonna make me cry? Aren't you? You're gonna try to make me cry? I don't know. I don't know. You might hate her. She's everything to me. I mean, I am so blessed to have her in my life. She's dealt with me when I've been a raging asshole. And she's dealt with me when I've been depressed. When I've let my anxiety get the best of me, we've had a lot of ups and downs in our marriage. And I think that's really important for people to hear. We're soulmates. And I really wouldn't have achieved anything that I've achieved without her help and guidance and love and support.

1:12:42And it all sounds like a cliche, but it's just the truth. And she's really the wisest person that I know. She has a deep, deep wisdom. And she knows me better than anyone. So I'm just grateful and I tell her every day. I tell her every day. What is she taught you about the nature of what love is? You know, it's interesting. She also had a very traumatic childhood and a difficult, her parents had a very difficult situation. And she had a lot of issues in her own way. And her own journey. I'll let her tell that story. But she loves very naturally in a way that it's a lot more work for me. So she just has a big heart and is just able to love our son and other people and animals.

1:13:37And you know, I, I always felt I as an analogy I use in my in my books where because I had such a weirdly fractured childhood, I would observe how humans interacted and try and emulate that because I didn't understand it. So I would like observe people in the lunch room in my school and they'd come in and someone would say like, Hey, buddy, how's it going? You have a good weekend? Good to see you. And I would, I would watch it. And I would, I'm like, Oh, that's, that's how normal people interact. And so I would, I would literally copy it and I would try it out. And I'd go up to someone like, Hey, buddy, how you doing?

1:14:22Have a good weekend? And, you know, so for me, I felt like I was an alien, like I was literally a science fiction film where I was like this alien, like learning about human behavior and interaction and like studying humans and seeking to fit in. And I bring this up because holidays does this stuff so naturally, you know, she just has a natural warmth and grace. So sometimes I emulate her about, Oh, here's what it means to be loving and warm and and live life with grace. You and me both. My partner sounds exactly the same and I feel like I've learned how to love someone by emulating the things she does so naturally.

1:15:08The things she says, the things she admits when she says, sorry, how open she is, the her ability to tell me her feelings. All of these things I've, I've learned from just watching that she seems to have no issue or no resistance in doing it. That makes sense. I've learned how to parent from her so well. And our son, bless them. Walter is 18 and a half about to go off to college. But I always want to maybe lecture or react a little too much or say the thing I feel that needs saying and my wife is so good and like she'll see me starting to do it and she'll just be like. Just this little thing and I'll be like, and I think Walter, well, we'll talk about it later.

1:15:52I just, I take my cues from her little like she's a conductor. She's a conductor of my parenting too. Rain, thank you so much. We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're leaving the question for. They leave it in the diary of a year. That's good. The question they have left for you. I didn't get to read it until. So give me a second handwriting is not always great. Can you recall a time when you observe he reads it observed someone being treated badly and could have intervened but didn't. So what might you have done differently if you could go back to that moment?

1:16:43That's such an exceptional question. I was reading a, someone was writing about bullying and they were talking about how bullying is a three -step process like you stop the bully. You say, hey, that's not okay. Speak up to the bully. Maybe not getting a fight but speak up to the bully. Tend to the bullied and then report it to an authority. And we often just kind of view bullying as like that first step process of like trying to shut down the bully. And you know back in the 70s and 80s when I was growing up there was a hell a lot of bullying going on. And I feel bad that I didn't bully myself because I was far too nerdy to partake in bullying.

1:17:36But I think that's any reason why. Well part of it was part of it was because I wish that I could have been a part of that process of especially people that had been bullied to. I guess I just didn't have the tools to give them empathy and compassion and support. And then to take an active part in reporting this whole dynamic to the authorities because when I go back and replay my high school years and junior high and elementary school years, it was non -stop bullying. I mean it was taunting and teasing and taking the piss out and demeaning and belittling and hierarchies. And we may be going a little too far in contemporary society about what qualifies as bullying because it's not criticism and it's not even necessarily like having some good nature fun.

1:18:40But I wish I had been more actively a participant in kind of a part of that three step process. It's super interesting. I've never heard about that three step process before. This particular individual, I don't usually give clues but they were writing a book about adult bullying as well. Having been on the receiving end of that and they think adult bullying is something we don't really talk about a lot which is like the workplace stuff and as we get older. Rain, thank you so much. Thank you for so many things. There's two really incredible things that changed my life in a really important way.

1:19:18The first was obviously the office. You know, you are by far my favourite character and I think I just can't understand how a human could have been so good at acting. I really mean that. I don't bullshit people but you're so good at acting. Playing that role of Dwight. I think there was occasions where I tried to do it. So it's almost, it comes as a shock to many people that, but you know this because you kind of alluded to it in the first chapter of the book. That someone that could embody Dwight can also write such a great book like this about something that is so far from what I think Dwight might be interested in.

1:19:58And it's actually all a testament to your ability to act really, really unbelievable. I think your role as Dwight is one of the all -time great performances in any show like that. It's incredible, incredible. And you talk about, as I said, in the 10th chapter of the book about spreading joy. You gave me so much joy. And then you came out with this app called Soul Pancake back in the day, which caught me at the perfect moment, whereas a young man that was really obsessed with these big questions still am. And it allowed me to find this community where I just peppered people with really profound questions about whether dogs have, you know, a sort of soul and all these kind of things that I was struggling with at the time.

1:20:35So thank you for both of those things because you helped me in ways that you'll never know. And I live tens of thousands of miles that way. And it changed just nudged the direction of my life in so many important ways. And it's led me to this moment now, which you can understand for me is an incredible one, absolutely incredible one. So thank you. Means a lot. And everyone should go check out this book. It's wonderful. It's super accessible. It's kind of, I don't have to describe this, but it as it relates to books that are confronting this idea of the spiritual revolution, it takes it easy on you and it holds your hand across the bridge, you know, and that I think is important because that person in the lorry or the truck, that's exactly what they need.

1:21:12If they are going to access the wisdom in this book. So thank you, rain. Stephen, what a profound pleasure. Thank you for having me on the show. Congratulations on all the incredible work that you do. And thank you for acknowledging the fact that you owe everything to me. So, and that's a wrap.

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